The new Pro Twins class

[cowpoos]

Yea BUT IT WASNT DONE--so its impossible to know.Thats my point.
You cant say how much of the improved lap times was suspension and how much was just laps on the track unless there is a "control" bike to ride which there wasn't.

I think your just arguing for the sake of arguing now frosty...Drew has made a decent point as much as it pains me to say that,[because we often are disagreeing on points of topic]...

Back on topic anyone??? it was a interesting thread to read

[Robert Taylor]

Did the test day on it completely stock, had no hassles, raced on an Ohlins rear, wasn't valved for the track, but was notably better.

Wait till the forks are done and the rear valved......

[Robert Taylor]

Robert--I see the point you are making.BUT Its an unfair comparison.
I concider myself a rider somewhere between the two examples you quote.
During a track day on EXACTLY the same bike with the same sertings I will usually easily drop a second a lap over the day when Ive been on the track within the month.
If say (like now) Ive spent a month or two out of the race bikes saddle I'd expect to drop 3-5 seconds a lap during the day.
As the bike wasn't set back to the factory settings -or a back to back comparison made with a factory setupbike I can't see this as a fair comparison.

Frosty, sorry but your argumentative diposition re this subject is digging you a rather large hole, Id cut your losses and graciously accept that you are over the top on this.

I am well aware of back to back comparison errors. BUT, Brian Bernard has done more laps on TL1000Rs than anyone else in NZ and lots of laps around Puke,more than you have had hot dinners.

Both Brian and Jonathan did LOTS of laps around Puke ( and were consistent, especially Brian ) before we fitted the sexy Swedish suspenders. The very moment we did that their lap times dropped. Within accepted margins of error the result was conclusive.

[Robert Taylor]

it is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

[Robert Taylor]

Yep I came in complaining I went out unsure of how the bike would feel and it felt bloody terrible --Then THE ONLY suspension guru that had ridden and set up my bike patiently (ok who am I kidding not very patiently at all) explained to me that I had to start Pushing the bike to get the benifit of his setup-that it would feel bad at slow speed -The faster I went the better it worked.
I got refamiliarised with my bike and my lap times started to come down
What Robert SAYS is that as the suspension improved over the day as a direct result lap times dropped.
Im saying that lap times WILL fall as you get laps down on a bike and get more familiar with it.
Imnot denying improved suspension will let you go faster Just that the cards were stacked in the aftermarket suspensions favour

Well......actually stacking the cards against yourself is not very clever.

You are at least ''obliquely'' correct insofar as the front end is that which very first needs attention on the SV.

The rear also responds positively to a good quality aftermarket shock that is CORRECT for it. This will give an improvement in mechanical grip and ride height control etc etc. Moreover, such shocks have a length adjuster and the SV positively responds to ''jacking the rear'' This gives several benefits, in conjunction with a proffessionally set up front end...

1) More ground clearance and cornering bank angle.

2) More swingarm ''antisquat angle'' This resists chain pull torque a little better and in theory allows the spring preload to be softened a little in combination, helping sidegrip.

3) Sharpens up rake and trail for quicker front end steering and redistributes a little more weight onto the front end, improving front grip and feel

One end affects the other, they are absolutely not seperate entities.

And............back to that word CORRECT. As you may well recall I had a look at your bike at Paeroa nearly a couple of years back at your request ( no charge for a quick look, comment and tweak, that would be immoral ) I noted straight away that the Ohlins shock you had fitted ( intended for a completely different model ) was completly INCORRECT, Especially with respect to length. It was so short that the bike had the steering laziness of a Harley chopper.

There and then I gave you an indication of what would be required to rebuild it to the correct length, adjustment range and to set it up for you. But you subsequently chose to use someone in Auckland to do it by the ''bodge method'' someone who is not an Ohlins expert or privy to such information. Someone who hasnt expended hundreds of thousands of dollars in setting up technical support for a specialist product.

So you very much made your own bed and had to lie on it.....

I will help anyone who asks and I think it is best that people are informed why changes are made. What is a good setting for a top rider is not neccessarily correct for someone else....

[flame]

Wait till the forks are done and the rear valved......

hehehehe......he cant wait

And you guys are doing my forks for me too......and I CANT WAIT

[Tim 39]

it is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

I like that quote! probably applies to me more than anyone else but thats not the point

[TDC]

The one thing that hasn't been covered is that what is stock suspension performance anyhow?

The stock suspension's (was going to say performance) observable action changes so fast due to wear in the stock components (especially rear) that it raises the question of how to define what stock performance is in the first place?

Now lets consider cost driven mass productions techniques and then try and calculate what the odds of getting two bikes that handle even close to the same with stock suspension components on them are???

The reality is that this model bike will have varying suspension action ranging on some bikes from mushy but usable through to truly diabolical and the only variables will be production tolerances and what the bike has been used for and how since it was new.

So umm just how would you benchmark stock anyhow????

[Possum41]

Yea BUT IT WASNT DONE--so its impossible to know.Thats my point.
You cant say how much of the improved lap times was suspension and how much was just laps on the track unless there is a "control" bike to ride which there wasn't.

Heres one for ya, last year i started racing my stock standard Hyosung GT650R and decided to spend my money on setup and control rather than go fast. So RT built my ohlins shock but i didn't valve the forks. Result was considerable more tyre life from the rear and much more control resulting in faster lap times and top 6 finishes but the front tyre was chewing out something cronic and almost resulted in many low side crashes which does nothing for your confidence.
So this year we gold valved the forks and raised the oil level slightly (as these are the only mods available for the Hyosung), sorted out some ground clearance issues and continue to make improvements on suspension settings, result, i have very good tyre life, i'm beating my lap times every meeting and i'm taking my Hyosung to second place finishes.
Bear in mind that while i'm improving i havn't had second gear since the start of this Winter series so in order for me to remain competitive i've had to resort to better setup to maintain higher corner speed because i don't no of anyone who races, who would be cornering through hairpins and slow speed corners in third gear.
But you do what you have to do and you make what youve got work for you, if i still had my stock setup i would have pulled out of the series again as i did last year to try and improve the bike.

Remember Pirelli's moto = "POWER IS NOTHING WITHOUT CONTROL"

This is true on so many levels.

My 10c worth

[Tim 39]

Heres one for ya, last year i started racing my stock standard Hyosung GT650R and decided to spend my money on setup and control rather than go fast. So RT built my ohlins shock but i didn't valve the forks. Result was considerable more tyre life from the rear and much more control resulting in faster lap times and top 6 finishes but the front tyre was chewing out something cronic and almost resulted in many low side crashes which does nothing for your confidence.
So this year we gold valved the forks and raised the oil level slightly (as these are the only mods available for the Hyosung), sorted out some ground clearance issues and continue to make improvements on suspension settings, result, i have very good tyre life, i'm beating my lap times every meeting and i'm taking my Hyosung to second place finishes.
Bear in mind that while i'm improving i havn't had second gear since the start of this Winter series so in order for me to remain competitive i've had to resort to better setup to maintain higher corner speed because i don't no of anyone who races, who would be cornering through hairpins and slow speed corners in third gear.
But you do what you have to do and you make what youve got work for you, if i still had my stock setup i would have pulled out of the series again as i did last year to try and improve the bike.

Remember Pirelli's moto = "POWER IS NOTHING WITHOUT CONTROL"

This is true on so many levels.

My 10c worth

well said and you're a good example showing why these upgrades are so important (you will have got the monry back in savings from tyres anyway most likely) howcome you have no second gear?

[limbimtimwim]

I had a thought (Ouch..). Let's pretend Kawasaki started to produce an ER-6RR with flashy adjustable suspension (Maybe even Ohlins to keep RT happy) then riders on that bike could have an advantage if they knew what they were doing.

So allowing extensive suspension mods could also be viewed as a way of making different bikes more equal.

[Robert Taylor]

I like that quote! probably applies to me more than anyone else but thats not the point

No Tim, dont beat yourself around. It was a generalised comment, if you like these examples of wit ( that I have merely found ) start reading the works of Winston Churchill.

[Robert Taylor]

I had a thought (Ouch..). Let's pretend Kawasaki started to produce an ER-6RR with flashy adjustable suspension (Maybe even Ohlins to keep RT happy) then riders on that bike could have an advantage if they knew what they were doing.

So allowing extensive suspension mods could also be viewed as a way of making different bikes more equal.

There is a Ohlins shock listing for that model but it is a basic spec. But apples for apples way better than the non compliant ''hold it up device'' in there.

We recently completed building our third fully adjustable road race specific Ohlins shock for ER6, hose reservoir type, independent rebound and compression adjustment, length adjuster and full backup.

Beware of the term ''fully adjustable'' when it comes to mass produced oem shocks, very misleading and ''generous''.

I had eluded in a previous post to allowing a certain level of suspension mods as being a leveller, for bikes that would otherwise be uncompetitive. Possums post is certainly testament to that.

And oh, wish Pirelli hadnt been the first to think of that awesome ( and so true ) statement.

Look at the McLaren Formula 1 cars, all motor outputs in F1 are very similiar, the McLaren chassis just transmits more of it to the track....

[limbimtimwim]

I had eluded in a previous post to allowing a certain level of suspension mods as being a leveller, for bikes that would otherwise be uncompetitive. Possums post is certainly testament to that.

Oh yes, quite right, it is an excellent example. I was meaning by 'flashy fully adjustable' in the same way Yamaha made the R1-SP .

I'm not saying any of the manufacturers will do that, but if they did, it could really stuff up a production based class that doesn't allow suspension mods.

[Possum41]

well said and you're a good example showing why these upgrades are so important (you will have got the monry back in savings from tyres anyway most likely) howcome you have no second gear?

Earlier in the year i did a couple of track days at Taupo and the gearbox decided to chew the dogs out on second gear so if anything it has forced me to change the way i ride and change my whole mentality towards riding just to stay with the front guys. Its quite demoralising qualifing on the front row only to get swamped off the start line and arrive at turn 1 mid pack, but on the other hand to make your way through the pack to finish 2nd is very rewarding on its own.

I now have a new gearbox going in this week so the theory is to continue doing what i've been doing except now i'll have full use of the gearbox which means trying for the holeshot into turn 1 and maintaining the lead or at least dicing for the lead either way its gona be fun