Robert Taylor and idleidolidyll's political debating thread

[idleidolidyll]

I was thinking about a right wing regime, not a watered down one...........

right...........like new fascist amerikkka where the rich get richer and the poor go to iraq to kill and die for amerikkka's blood money

right wing conservatism only benefits the already haves

[Robert Taylor]

right...........like new fascist amerikkka where the rich get richer and the poor go to iraq to kill and die for amerikkka's blood money

right wing conservatism only benefits the already haves

Maybe then they should pull out of Iraq, seal the place off and let them all kill each other. That just might do the world a favour. But then that pyscopath in the country next door is also looking decidedly dangerous.

Hey, the suspension stuts on those planes that fly off aircraft carriers are an interesting piece of work, and some of that technolgy is filtering through into high spec motorcycle shocks.

God bless America, they saved us from certain annihilation by the Japanese over half a century ago, despite all their faults we should never forget that!

Properly managed Government with no vested interests and a hand up rather than handout mentality would help everyone. But given human nature at ALL ends of the scale that is only ever a pipe dream

[idleidolidyll]

Maybe then they should pull out of Iraq, seal the place off and let them all kill each other. That just might do the world a favour. But then that pyscopath in the country next door is also looking decidedly dangerous.

God bless America, they saved us from certain annihilation by the Japanese over half a century ago, despite all their faults we should never forget that!

Properly managed Government with no vested interests and a hand up rather than handout mentality would help everyone. But given human nature at ALL ends of the scale that is only ever a pipe dream

Contrary to Yank spin, before they invaded and destroyed Iraq's infrastructure and security systems, they were NOT killing each other at anything like the rate after the illegal invasion. The death rate under Saddam even at his worst is not even close to the death rate due to the invasion and escalation by the Yanks. That the Yanks have used their prescence in Iraq to actually change Oil Laws signing over control of Iraqi oil to Yank corporate control should signal to everyone what this was really all about. Thankfully, the Iraqi Govt is now awake and rejecting that dictatorship.

As for the Iranian Prez. Yes, he's a wierd one but he's less of a psychopath that Bush. In 1000 years Iran has never attacked another country. They fought the Iraqis when Iraq attacked them and after the Yanks forced the democratically elected Mossadeq (spelling) out of power and installed the abusive Shah, they decided Amerika was their enemy and fair enough too.

Mossadeq's 'crime' was to declare that he would return Iranian oil to public ownership. Seeing a trend here yet?

The spin on Iran is driven by the Israel lobby in the US and Amerikan greed for oil at whatever the human cost to OTHER peoples. The REAL terrorists in this region are the USA and Israel and any serious investigation into their actions over the past 50 years bears that out.

You seem to be convinced that media spin is truth. Sadly it isn't, it's half truth and manipulation by the owners of the media: the corporations.

YAWN, Amerika saved NZ from certain annihalation? What a crock! Yanks like to claim they won the 2nd World War. That's bullshit. Russia did more to win that war than any other nation and China was the greatest probelm for the Japanese.

In return for Yank aid in WW2 however, my father and many others like him fought in some of Amerika's ill advised and abusive wars in Vietnam and Korea where the paranoid Yanks created 4-6 million deaths.

My suggestion is that if you truly beilive the Amerikan way: blood money and profit at the expense of human life, is the right way, you should volunteer to go fight for them in iraq.

The only reason the Yanks entered WW2 on the allies side is because they were pushed into it by the Japanese. Until then they had been happily playing both sides for a profit margin trading with Hitler (specifically the Bush family and Henry Ford).

Amerika is not the world's hope, it is the self serving destructor.

As for your last comment. Laissez-faire Capitalism relies on creating a vast gap between the haves and have nots and also relies on a pool of unemployed. It is nothing less that a new form of serfdom for workers. I applaud socialist measures within a society to ameliorate the abuse that free market capitalism usually leads to. I care for those abused and trampled by the system.

[Robert Taylor]

Contrary to Yank spin, before they invaded and destroyed Iraq's infrastructure and security systems, they were NOT killing each other at anything like the rate after the illegal invasion. The death rate under Saddam even at his worst is not even close to the death rate due to the invasion and escalation by the Yanks. That the Yanks have used their prescence in Iraq to actually change Oil Laws signing over control of Iraqi oil to Yank corporate control should signal to everyone what this was really all about. Thankfully, the Iraqi Govt is now awake and rejecting that dictatorship.

As for the Iranian Prez. Yes, he's a wierd one but he's less of a psychopath that Bush. In 1000 years Iran has never attacked another country. They fought the Iraqis when Iraq attacked them and after the Yanks forced the democratically elected Mossadeq (spelling) out of power and installed the abusive Shah, they decided Amerika was their enemy and fair enough too.

Mossadeq's 'crime' was to declare that he would return Iranian oil to public ownership. Seeing a trend here yet?

The spin on Iran is driven by the Israel lobby in the US and Amerikan greed for oil at whatever the human cost to OTHER peoples. The REAL terrorists in this region are the USA and Israel and any serious investigation into their actions over the past 50 years bears that out.

You seem to be convinced that media spin is truth. Sadly it isn't, it's half truth and manipulation by the owners of the media: the corporations.

YAWN, Amerika saved NZ from certain annihalation? What a crock! Yanks like to claim they won the 2nd World War. That's bullshit. Russia did more to win that war than any other nation and China was the greatest probelm for the Japanese.

In return for Yank aid in WW2 however, my father and many others like him fought in some of Amerika's ill advised and abusive wars in Vietnam and Korea where the paranoid Yanks created 4-6 million deaths.

My suggestion is that if you truly beilive the Amerikan way: blood money and profit at the expense of human life, is the right way, you should volunteer to go fight for them in iraq.

The only reason the Yanks entered WW2 on the allies side is because they were pushed into it by the Japanese. Until then they had been happily playing both sides for a profit margin trading with Hitler (specifically the Bush family and Henry Ford).

Amerika is not the world's hope, it is the self serving destructor.

As for your last comment. Laissez-faire Capitalism relies on creating a vast gap between the haves and have nots and also relies on a pool of unemployed. It is nothing less that a new form of serfdom for workers. I applaud socialist measures within a society to ameliorate the abuse that free market capitalism usually leads to. I care for those abused and trampled by the system.

I dont disagree with some of what you have said and it would make for an interesting and reasoned conversation face to face. You are certainly very right when you said America was profiting from WW2, that resulted in austere times in Britain for many years after the war. But as you are also clearly a keen student of history you know that already. I am proud that my father fought in WW2, a justified conflict against at least 2 pyscopathic regimes, 3 if you include Stalins Russia. I am not so certain though about WW1 in which I had a grandfather who was a sniper and fought in the Somme.

I also care for those abused and trampled by the system but socialism has proven to be a very flawed ''fix'', if only because those at the top ( like most if not all politicians ) sucuumb to corruption and seek power at all costs for powers sake. That is so VERY evident in NZ today. For my money one of Clarks most treasonous acts is getting rid of our Air Strike Force.

My philosophy is ''compassionate conservatism'' and a handup regime rather than handouts. Neither socialist or capitalist. There can be consensus....but nail those at the top milking the system, and nail those at the bottom who have made welfare a lifestyle choice and also know how to milk the system.

But ( and I am largely guilty of this ) we are off topic. But also interesting to see how such attitudes transpose into our small world of motorcycle road racing. I am certainly concerned if I am viewed by many as say " a greedy capitalist'' when demonstably I have helped so many people over the years for no charge.

[Robert Taylor]

Contrary to Yank spin, before they invaded and destroyed Iraq's infrastructure and security systems, they were NOT killing each other at anything like the rate after the illegal invasion. The death rate under Saddam even at his worst is not even close to the death rate due to the invasion and escalation by the Yanks. That the Yanks have used their prescence in Iraq to actually change Oil Laws signing over control of Iraqi oil to Yank corporate control should signal to everyone what this was really all about. Thankfully, the Iraqi Govt is now awake and rejecting that dictatorship.

As for the Iranian Prez. Yes, he's a wierd one but he's less of a psychopath that Bush. In 1000 years Iran has never attacked another country. They fought the Iraqis when Iraq attacked them and after the Yanks forced the democratically elected Mossadeq (spelling) out of power and installed the abusive Shah, they decided Amerika was their enemy and fair enough too.

Mossadeq's 'crime' was to declare that he would return Iranian oil to public ownership. Seeing a trend here yet?

The spin on Iran is driven by the Israel lobby in the US and Amerikan greed for oil at whatever the human cost to OTHER peoples. The REAL terrorists in this region are the USA and Israel and any serious investigation into their actions over the past 50 years bears that out.

You seem to be convinced that media spin is truth. Sadly it isn't, it's half truth and manipulation by the owners of the media: the corporations.

YAWN, Amerika saved NZ from certain annihalation? What a crock! Yanks like to claim they won the 2nd World War. That's bullshit. Russia did more to win that war than any other nation and China was the greatest probelm for the Japanese.

In return for Yank aid in WW2 however, my father and many others like him fought in some of Amerika's ill advised and abusive wars in Vietnam and Korea where the paranoid Yanks created 4-6 million deaths.

My suggestion is that if you truly beilive the Amerikan way: blood money and profit at the expense of human life, is the right way, you should volunteer to go fight for them in iraq.

The only reason the Yanks entered WW2 on the allies side is because they were pushed into it by the Japanese. Until then they had been happily playing both sides for a profit margin trading with Hitler (specifically the Bush family and Henry Ford).

Amerika is not the world's hope, it is the self serving destructor.

As for your last comment. Laissez-faire Capitalism relies on creating a vast gap between the haves and have nots and also relies on a pool of unemployed. It is nothing less that a new form of serfdom for workers. I applaud socialist measures within a society to ameliorate the abuse that free market capitalism usually leads to. I care for those abused and trampled by the system.

I dont disagree with some of what you have said and it would make for an interesting and reasoned conversation face to face. You are certainly very right when you said America was profiting from WW2, that resulted in austere times in Britain for many years after the war. But as you are also clearly a keen student of history you know that already.

I also care for those abused and trampled by the system but socialism has proven to be a very flawed ''fix'', if only because those at the top ( like most if not all politicians ) sucuumb to corruption and seek power at all costs for powers sake. That is so VERY evident in NZ today.

My philosophy is ''compassionate conservatism'' and a handup regime rather than handouts. Neither socialist or capitalist. There can be consensus....but nail those at the top milking the system, and nail those at the bottom who have made welfare a lifestyle choice and also know how to milk the system.

But ( and I am largely guilty of this ) we are off topic. But also interesting to see how such attitudes transpose into our small world of motorcycle road racing. I am certainly concerned if I am viewed by many as say " a greedy capitalist'' when demonstably I have helped so many people over the years for no charge.

[GSVR]

You sound like you really know your shit Idol. Not bad for someone that rides a motad byke. Only comment I could possibly make is that its sounds like your having a bit of a whinge.

BTW do you think Rossi has lost it?

[idleidolidyll]

I dont disagree with some of what you have said and it would make for an interesting and reasoned conversation face to face. You are certainly very right when you said America was profiting from WW2, that resulted in austere times in Britain for many years after the war. But as you are also clearly a keen student of history you know that already.

I also care for those abused and trampled by the system but socialism has proven to be a very flawed ''fix'', if only because those at the top ( like most if not all politicians ) sucuumb to corruption and seek power at all costs for powers sake. That is so VERY evident in NZ today.

The problem is that the spin doctors have associated non socialist actions with the definition of socialism. Socialism is a system somewhere between extreme capitalism and extreme communism. It's main point is to provide for those who are inherently disadvantaged by the system. Yanks usually point to Stalin and the NAMES people give their political parties as indicators of socialism. That's propaganda not valid description.
The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics for instance was not a socialist system; it was actually a dictatorship abusing the name of socialism just as Hitler did (Hitler was a fascist who was elected on a phoney socialist propaganda campaign). The greatest threats are not specifically from socialism, communism or capitalism per se, they come form authoritarianism taken to the extreme as in Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Pinochet, Bush etc.
The desire to control and isolate wealth and power almost always lead to abuse.


My philosophy is ''compassionate conservatism'' and a handup regime rather than handouts. Neither socialist or capitalist. There can be consensus....but nail those at the top milking the system, and nail those at the bottom who have made welfare a lifestyle choice and also know how to milk the system.

Bush claims also to be a 'compassionate conservative' and he has created the deaths of up to a million people in foreign lands. How compassionate is that? Usually compassionate conservatives save that compassion only for their own people and they don't seem to care much about people being abused in their names. I don't for a moment believe you are abusive but I would want to be very clear on the use or abuse of such terminology.

BTW: Socialism is not the opposite of capitalism; communism is the opposite. Socialism is a middle path and modern socialism recognises that capitalism is useful but needs to be tempered by social initiatives aimed at preventing or reducing the negative effects of capitalism on those without power.

But ( and I am largely guilty of this ) we are off topic. But also interesting to see how such attitudes transpose into our small world of motorcycle road racing. I am certainly concerned if I am viewed by many as say " a greedy capitalist'' when demonstably I have helped so many people over the years for no charge.

Sure, there are many communists and socialist who have also helped their fellow man too. As I said, none of those systems are inherently at fault, the fault lies in mankind: greed and self serving inhumanity.

The specific definition of a conservative is someone who wants the world to stay as it is.
The opposite is not a socialist, it's a liberal. Generally, a liberal believes that people should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't negatively affect others.

Most of what people recognise as positive advances in society over the aeon's have come from liberalism not conservatism. It can be useful to think of conservativism as being opposed to change and diversity while liberalism is to welcome change and diversity.

Yes, we did go off topic but my reply was offered as a balance to your political commet.

[idleidolidyll]

You sound like you really know your shit Idol. Not bad for someone that rides a motad byke. Only comment I could possibly make is that its sounds like your having a bit of a whinge.

BTW do you think Rossi has lost it?

actually i just like a good debate/argument and i am not afraid to promote opinions i don't even believe myself just to expose that there are a plethora of 'valid' opinions.

I dunno about Rossi, perhaps he's lost his edge a little; what is there left for him to do now?

[Robert Taylor]

Sure, there are many communists and socialist who have also helped their fellow man too. As I said, none of those systems are inherently at fault, the fault lies in mankind: greed and self serving inhumanity.

The specific definition of a conservative is someone who wants the world to stay as it is.
The opposite is not a socialist, it's a liberal. Generally, a liberal believes that people should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't negatively affect others.

Most of what people recognise as positive advances in society over the aeon's have come from liberalism not conservatism. It can be useful to think of conservativism as being opposed to change and diversity while liberalism is to welcome change and diversity.

Yes, we did go off topic but my reply was offered as a balance to your political commet.

Your opinions and comments are stimulating, I like that. ( I even have friends that are socialists! )

[idleidolidyll]

Your opinions and comments are stimulating, I like that. ( I even have friends that are socialists! )

and i have friends who are rednecks and cops; we argue often but still have a great time

cheers Robert

[scracha]

Mossadeq's 'crime' was to declare that he would return Iranian oil to public ownership. Seeing a trend here yet?

Umm... Libya (I could go on) is another country that sprung to mind.

[idleidolidyll]

the current vilification of Chavez in Venezuela is similar.
Chavez has been democratically elected 6 times. He' was overthrown by force (by the wealthy right wingers) but was returned to power by his people. He has taken back the resources of his country and is largely using them to raise the quality of life for those most in need who have been battered by the right for decades if not centuries.

Powerful Yanks hate him with a passion for those 'crimes'. He has taken power from them and used it for ordinary people and he dares to openly promote such socialism to other Americans outside the USA.

On that note i'll explain my terminology. I refuse to write 'American' for Yanks. It's insulting to all the other Americans from Canada to Tierra Del Fuego (North America/South America). I reject their hegemony and call them Yanks or AmeriKans instead.

[Robert Taylor]

the current vilification of Chavez in Venezuela is similar.
Chavez has been democratically elected 6 times. He' was overthrown by force (by the wealthy right wingers) but was returned to power by his people. He has taken back the resources of his country and is largely using them to raise the quality of life for those most in need who have been battered by the right for decades if not centuries.

Powerful Yanks hate him with a passion for those 'crimes'. He has taken power from them and used it for ordinary people and he dares to openly promote such socialism to other Americans outside the USA.

On that note i'll explain my terminology. I refuse to write 'American' for Yanks. It's insulting to all the other Americans from Canada to Tierra Del Fuego (North America/South America). I reject their hegemony and call them Yanks or AmeriKans instead.

Okay, whats your perspective on Mugabes Zimbabwe? Will the Yanks not ''police'' that because theres no oil involved? ( Btw, that cynicism is directed at the yanks, not you )

[HDTboy]

What electorate are you running in Robert? Or are you waiting until next year to mount a full blown political campaign?

Will you be a list party member? Which party? Will you start your own party? Will you run as an independent?

[Robert Taylor]

What electorate are you running in Robert? Or are you waiting until next year to mount a full blown political campaign?

Will you be a list party member? Which party? Will you start your own party? Will you run as an independent?

How about a ''storming of the Bastille gates'' to have a big clean out and start again. Get rid of all the leaches at all levels sucking off the taxation gravy train and have a Government of common sense that rewards hard work and enterprise BUT also gives everyone a hand up and equal opportunity. Reverse our incessant decline in living standards ( for all arguable myriads of reasons ) Socialism is a failure as is unchecked capitalism and the free market. Get rid of all the labels.

AND, make sure the roads are kept rough while at the same time providing tax concessions for purchase of suspension upgrades....

I am kidding about some of the above.....