Robert Taylor and idleidolidyll's political debating thread

[davereid]

No, we feel compassion for humanity. It's a ridiculous myth that socialists are not hard working people.

Huh ? I never said that socialists were lazy.

And you should not assume that capitalists don't feel compassion for humanity. Bill Gates gives away a fortune every year.

The difference is that socialists think they have the right to feel compassion with other peoples money, and they can take that money using force.

Capitalists just use their own money.

[idleidolidyll]

John Fizgerald Kennedy quoted to the effect...''it is not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country''

mindless nationalism like that got them Bush and the illegal abusive war in Iraq.

we ARE the country. Kennedy's quote was propaganda in a country where the people are answerable to the government not the other way around. Successive law changes over the last century have turned the US into a corporate fascist state where the citizens are ignored the moment the elections are over.

Government is there to serve the people, NOT vice versa or to serve the corporations.

[idleidolidyll]

Huh ? I never said that socialists were lazy.

And you should not assume that capitalists don't feel compassion for humanity. Bill Gates gives away a fortune every year.

The difference is that socialists think they have the right to feel compassion with other peoples money, and they can take that money using force.

Capitalists just use their own money.

fallacies are hilarious. Bill Gates is so disgustingly rich on the back of his monopoly that he can afford to try and brighten his legacy with the money he gives. Good on him but in effect he is no more worthy than an ordinary Joe who donates $20 per week.

As for the lazy socialist comment, that's been the ridiculous tone of many of the right/fascist arguments here. It's fucking stupid.

[idleidolidyll]

I very much doubt whether you'll find too many right wing liberals happy to be sub-categorised as libertarians, or libertarians pleased to be called anarchists.

Tell me, what're the policies of the Libertarians?

Aren't they about massive reduction of government and a far greater emphasis on the individual and what they want to do themselves?

Sounds like anarchy to me.

Anarchy from Wikipedia (choose another if you wish):

• "Absence of government; a state of lawlessness due to beliefs that people are inherently good and can organize themselves without government or bureaucracies; another type of political order."^[1]
• "A theoretical social state in which there is no governing person or body of persons, but each individual has absolute liberty (without the implication of disorder)."^[2]
• "Absence or non-recognition of authority in any given sphere."^[3]

or, simply, (from Greek: an-, "without" and Greek: -archy, "leadership")

• Without leadership. Hence, the common use of anarchism as a system of organisation without leaders.

that's funny, the shoe seems to fit quite well.

[Robert Taylor]

mindless nationalism like that got them Bush and the illegal abusive war in Iraq.

we ARE the country. Kennedy's quote was propaganda in a country where the people are answerable to the government not the other way around. Successive law changes over the last century have turned the US into a corporate fascist state where the citizens are ignored the moment the elections are over.

Government is there to serve the people, NOT vice versa or to serve the corporations.

So who in the hell is the sisterhood serving? Certainly not Joe Average in NZ.

[scumdog]

fallacies are hilarious. Bill Gates is so disgustingly rich on the back of his monopoly that he can afford to try and brighten his legacy with the money he gives. .

Hmm, I detect you have a problem that somebody gets himself rich??

In your eyes what SHOULD he have done with his life??

[Robert Taylor]

Huh ? I never said that socialists were lazy.

And you should not assume that capitalists don't feel compassion for humanity. Bill Gates gives away a fortune every year.

The difference is that socialists think they have the right to feel compassion with other peoples money, and they can take that money using force.

Capitalists just use their own money.

I agree with what you have said. But also someone that is on the bones of his butt ( most likely as a result of socialism ) that gives $20 to charity may indeed be making a bigger sacrifice than Bill Gates.

[scumdog]

I agree with what you have said. But also someone that is on the bones of his butt ( most likely as a result of socialism ) that gives $20 to charity may indeed be making a bigger sacrifice than Bill Gates.

However noble that donation of $20 may be it does not have the same practical impact of $2,000,000 for the recipients.

[Robert Taylor]

Huh ? I never said that socialists were lazy.

And you should not assume that capitalists don't feel compassion for humanity. Bill Gates gives away a fortune every year.

The difference is that socialists think they have the right to feel compassion with other peoples money, and they can take that money using force.

Capitalists just use their own money.

As an overworked dirty filthy thieving capitalist I have used plenty of my own filthy money helping others in the sport of Motorcycle road racing. Call that socialism or whatever. And Ill never see much of that back because some that I have given it to have a take take take world owes me a living mentality. Conmem.

But that does not deter from the many good people that I have helped and will continue to do so.

Unlike some other higher profile sports none of this has been on the back of taxpayers money.

[Robert Taylor]

However noble that donation of $20 may be it does not have the same practical impact of $2,000,000 for the recipients.

I agree. Michael Schumacher is another good example of one who has donated millions. Perhaps these sort of people are in fact the ''ultimate redistributors'' The difference being that people have been happy to part with money to witness their performance firsthand.

[Hitcher]

the Skyhawks are still at Ohakea

The Skyhawks are in Safe Air's big shed at RNZAF Woodbourne.

[The Stranger:Me]

What value is McDonalds etc to NZ? Most of these big corporations pay minimum wages and destroy local business, then they send their profits offshore. This is something Winston Peters seems to understand but he's seriously flawed in other areas.

So I have been trying to work this one out idle and am fucked if I can see the problem.

Way I see it is this.
Macs give us, the consumer, choice, prior to this we had fish & chips.

The bring competition. I must admit, I have not done any study on this, but anecdotally I doubt it is much dearer to eat out these days than to shop, purchase, store, prepare and cook your own food and do the dishes etc after. Either way I think it would be hard to dispute that competition does tend to benefit the consumer on a cost basis. Accepted there are other measures, however, given the choices we now have you can soon vote with your feet.

Macs assembles it's product apparently from materials sourced locally, so a lot of local business profit from supplying milk, meat, breads, packaging, rubbish collection etc etc. Things like achitectural, engineering and IT and construction are of course sourced locally also.

In addition to the indirect employment means mentioned above, Macs supply a lot of jobs directly. Now many of these are low paid and perhaps minimum wage jobs. That said, someone somewhere has to earn the minimum wage and as I see it one likely alternative to minimum is no job. No job probably means on the dole. So Macs potentially help the country enormously by taking a percentage of people that would otherwise cost us a lot (of dole) and turn them into contributors (tax payers).

So the profits go overseas. Well not all of it. The suppliers presumably profit, the salary and wage earners profit, I am sure the franchisee profits and presumably they all pay some taxes that otherwise would not have been collected. But even with a portion of their turnover going overseas how is this inherently bad.

How also does it differ say from purchasing a motorcycle, which presumably is acceptable as you would appear to have a few.
A motorcycle is made from materials sourced from overseas, assembled with foregin labour, in plants constructed in another land. We collect little tax from the whole procees (ignoring GST as this is also charged on Macs).

Way I see it is if Macs is bad, motorcycle is WAY bad.
Where have I got my wires crossed please?

[Swoop]

Mc Donalds does not pay youth rates any longer. The staff are placed on the adult wage scale from the beginning.
Even better opportunities for young people getting into the workforce.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/topic/stor...ectid=10413805

[Mr Merde]

.....
Government is there to serve the people, NOT vice versa or to serve the corporations.

Thats the ideal situation unfortunately.

What we get in this "the real world" is government that decides that, beacuse they managed to convince enough people that they may have a means to give them more, they know what is best for us and we shouldnt even question them.

The only time they pay even lip service to us the people, is election time where we are conned tha we can make a difference.

We are not served by the government we are governed by them. They are our lords and we at best are their servants, at worse their serfs.

Sorry if I sound cynical but I personally have serious concerns about a person or group of people who wish to have power over another group.
I honestly believe that those we have in govenment now are the biggest criminals we have and that they do it all in the name of "whats best for us" whilst lining their pockets with everything they can get.

[Timber020]

Thats the ideal situation unfortunately.

What we get in this "the real world" is government that decides that, beacuse they managed to convince enough people that they may have a means to give them more, they know what is best for us and we shouldnt even question them.

The only time they pay even lip service to us the people, is election time where we are conned tha we can make a difference.

We are not served by the government we are governed by them. They are our lords and we at best are their servants, at worse their serfs.

Sorry if I sound cynical but I personally have serious concerns about a person or group of people who wish to have power over another group.
I honestly believe that those we have in govenment now are the biggest criminals we have and that they do it all in the name of "whats best for us" whilst lining their pockets with everything they can get.

Where as the "gone by lunchtime" crowd have only the good of ALL in NZ firmly in there sights. Yeah right.

I would prefer to be overseen by a government that the people have had some hand in puting in power and supporting than have the guys with the biggest checkbooks making the rules and having more control than they currently have. Ive seen enough of that when I lived in the US, and what has happened historically (The marines "helped" make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. "helped" make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. "helped" in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. "helped" purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. "brought light" to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. "helped" make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 they "helped" see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested) and it simply sucks. Big guys win, govt becomes there bitch, everyone else has to keep all propped up. Not much has changed if you Look at whats gone on in Iraq.

Those who look at improving the country as a purely economical exercise will do it at the cost of others, as the truth is that they are only really trying to improve there own wealth most of the time, its just conveniant comfort for them to think some of their buddies might get rich to and others might get jobs out of it to.
Look at what the American liberty league tried to do in the 30's, all good honest patriotic respected top businessmen who thought a facist dictator would more profitable sence than having a voted in president, and took steps to try to overthrow FDR in a violent coup.

The system we have stinks but it beats most of the alternatives.