Robert Taylor and idleidolidyll's political debating thread

[Grahameeboy]

Still beating your wife dude? Yes or No?

Nah, she was no fun she just up and left...........

[Ocean1]

No assumption is necessary, all I have to do is read the heartless posts of the fascists here to KNOW they don't give a damn or, at best, are ignorant of the problems faced by other people.

Do try to pay attention dude, I offered you a way to gain more resources to help those facing genuine hardship and I'm heartless? You and your ilk have mauled the hand that feeds the poor to the bone and you continue to complain that dinner's not up to scratch. All you offer is a belaboured and hackneyed attack on the successful and the responsible in an attempt to lower them to some hypothetical mediocre median. Have you any idea how little of NZ’s revenue is siphoned offshore by the multi-nationals you despise? A pittance compared to the tax they pay, and that pales into insignificance compared to the tax the average working kiwi contributes.

[Ocean1]

Nah, she was no fun she just up and left...........

Peace dude. Sticks and stones aren't the only weapons to be wary of, don't quote me out of context eh?

[Grahameeboy]

Peace dude. Sticks and stones aren't the only weapons to be wary of, don't quote me out of context eh?

Haha.........there was peace before, just a bit of fun.....you should know me by now.....

[Robert Taylor]

No assumption is necessary, all I have to do is read the heartless posts of the fascists here to KNOW they don't give a damn or, at best, are ignorant of the problems faced by other people.

''Being the heartless capitalist / fascist that I am I have been away for a few days preying on the unsuspecting masses.'' The conundrum being that the suspension components I import are made in one of the most Socialist and over-regulated countries in the world, so they are a little more expensive than they otherwise could be. But I have still made ( some ) money out of this and that is evil! Having now briefly skimmed over the further succession of posts I am amazed at how ''BIG'' this thread has become.

But a constant theme is ''us and them'' / polarisation.

Socialism in practice has proven to be seriously flawed because it rapes capitalism and the will to work. But equally, unchecked capitalism ( eg our under-regulated free market ) is equally flawed. That we have a seriously flawed cocktail of the two is undeniable.

Notwithstanding the flaws of human nature, there is no reason we cannot have a capitalist society with both low taxes, appropriate controls and social responsibility all rolled into one.

I think we can all consume a much more agreable cocktail beneficial to ALL.

[Finn]

''Being the heartless capitalist / fascist that I am I have been away for a few days preying on the unsuspecting masses.'' The conundrum being that the suspension components I import are made in one of the most Socialist and over-regulated countries in the world, so they are a little more expensive than they otherwise could be.

There is still hope for Sweden Robert. They recently elected a young (male) right wing prime minister. Let's hope we follow their path. It does look promising.

If you need help with anything in Sweden, let me know.

[Robert Taylor]

There is still hope for Sweden Robert. They recently elected a young (male) right wing prime minister. Let's hope we follow their path. It does look promising.

If you need help with anything in Sweden, let me know.

Yes thanks Finn, I was aware of that happy event but just hope that he has both the mandate and intestinal fortitude to change the pervasive ''world owes me a living'' attitude that socialism perpetuates. Ditto for Sarkozy in France. And David Cameron in England has just made a devastating speech and low tax policy announcements propelling the Tories into the lead in the opinion polls. There is hope yet...

I have been to Sweden approx 8 times now and can testify that it has VERY high levels of taxation for cradle to the grave welfare. That means day to day consumer goods are VERY expensive.

And oh, they absorbed a great number of Moslem refugees from the last Balkans conflict, and have their own festering immigrant problems through the unwillingness of many to integrate.

[Goblin]

Notwithstanding the flaws of human nature...

I think we can all consume a much more agreable cocktail beneficial to ALL.

The flaws of human nature being greed.

Salut! Bottoms up!

[Robert Taylor]

The flaws of human nature being greed.

Salut! Bottoms up!

You got that in one, and the Socialists that worm their way to the top are just as guilty.

[idleidolidyll]

You got that in one, and the Socialists that worm their way to the top are just as guilty.

sometimes but not usually. the modern 'socialist states' are models of fairness and high standards and regularly top the most worthwhile charts internationally for the likes of satisfaction, quality of life, personal freedom, press freedom etc etc.

The favourite model of the right wing, Amerika, is usually some 20-30 places behind and often the massive gap between rich and poor skews results giving a more rosy picture than is deserved.

power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely

the greatest corruption on the planet at present is corporate control of US policy, a control used in a way that makes their 'democracy' a complete and utter sham.

As i've said a number of times here, the indicator for abuse within a system is not the left/right index but the disposition or shift toward fascism.
Virtually all major abusers in government have been extreme authoritarians and that is just as valid in Pinochet and Bush as it is in Mao and Stalin.

BTW: The National Party of NZ is significantly fascist but not yet as bad as the Yanks. If they manage to gain an absolute majority next elections, I have no doubt they will move a big step toward the Yanks and extreme fascism.

Expect more truly odious legislation like the Employment Contracts Act which took put virtual dictatorship power into the hands of corporates and played a significant part in driving NZ wages down along with the average persons lifestyle.

[idleidolidyll]

Yes thanks Finn, I was aware of that happy event but just hope that he has both the mandate and intestinal fortitude to change the pervasive ''world owes me a living'' attitude that socialism perpetuates. Ditto for Sarkozy in France. And David Cameron in England has just made a devastating speech and low tax policy announcements propelling the Tories into the lead in the opinion polls. There is hope yet...

I have been to Sweden approx 8 times now and can testify that it has VERY high levels of taxation for cradle to the grave welfare. That means day to day consumer goods are VERY expensive.

And oh, they absorbed a great number of Moslem refugees from the last Balkans conflict, and have their own festering immigrant problems through the unwillingness of many to integrate.

good grief what nonsense!

"''world owes me a living'' attitude that socialism perpetuates" hilarious seeing the usual fallacies instead of rational debate. It shows the opposition have nothing but childish propaganda.
personal observations indicate to me that capitalists are every bit as likely to have that very same attitude.

That's typical Yank propaganda though and I'm not surprised the right wingers here suck it down so easily; they seem to lack the skill to investigate deeper than the propaganda level.

Yes, some of those socialist countries have high tax rates indeed and Denmark is said to be the highest at close to 50% flat. However, despite those tax rates, the people self report as extremely happy and contented and the countries themselves regularly top the charts for all worthwhile quality of life indicators.

The right wing focus on tax is nothing but a smoke screen designed to remove all state support and place it in the hands of private industry where it will be served up with a big spoon of propaganda and ever inflating costs.

Past US governments used tax cuts to destroy social welfare and state funding to such an extent that it was 'deemed' impossible to do anything but place it in the hands of corporations. Now they have creationism being taught as science, 40 million people without adequate health care, a dumbed down population scared to speak in public and a leader close to declaring a black flag state of emergency and crowning himself emperor.

If that's the model you want to live under, I suggest you go to Yankland and live the nightmare for a while. That's NOT what makes NZ a great place to live, that's what will destroy NZ.

[scumdog]

Expect more truly odious legislation like the Employment Contracts Act which took put virtual dictatorship power into the hands of corporates and played a significant part in driving NZ wages down along with the average persons lifestyle.

Never mind, those not getting paid enough will just go on 'the benefit' - which those still working pay for.
Somehow it doesn't seem like THAT would work though eh?

I find it hard to believe 'odious legislation' and 'corporates' have driven wages and the average persons lifestyle down.

The biggest effect on the 'average' Kiwi would be spiraling property prices and the comensurate large mortgage.
Mostly created by overseas buyers and property developing individuals - NOT corporates and odious legislation.

[idleidolidyll]

Do try to pay attention dude, I offered you a way to gain more resources to help those facing genuine hardship and I'm heartless? You and your ilk have mauled the hand that feeds the poor to the bone and you continue to complain that dinner's not up to scratch. All you offer is a belaboured and hackneyed attack on the successful and the responsible in an attempt to lower them to some hypothetical mediocre median. Have you any idea how little of NZ’s revenue is siphoned offshore by the multi-nationals you despise? A pittance compared to the tax they pay, and that pales into insignificance compared to the tax the average working kiwi contributes.

No, you merely made some ridiculous flippant comments that I saw through as if they were glass or water.
At least you're almost honest in your desire to fuck over the less powerful and place massive power in the hands of those already haves.

It is notable that you still refrain (like John Key) from offering solutions instead merely usung fallacious arguments to attack existing policy or the suggestions of others.

Perhaps, since you raised the issue, you could offer numbers instead of opinion.

How much EXTRA tax DO these foreign companies pay and at the expense of how many NZ companies who go out of business because of them and would have also paid tax but WITHOUT sending profits offshore and driving down NZ incomes?
While you're at it, instead of offering mere numbers, give us an analysis of the social benefits and disadvantages of having those foreign corporates in NZ.

I won't be holding my breath.......................

[NighthawkNZ:Me]

Never mind, those not getting paid enough will just go on 'the benefit' - which those still working pay for.
Somehow it doesn't seem like THAT would work though eh?

I find it hard to believe 'odious legislation' and 'corporates' have driven wages and the average persons lifestyle down.

The biggest effect on the 'average' Kiwi would be spiraling property prices and the comensurate large mortgage.
Mostly created by overseas buyers and property developing individuals - NOT corporates and odious legislation.

hasn't drive wages down... but my wages has kept up with inflation ... and yes the price of houses hasn't helped...

[idleidolidyll]

Never mind, those not getting paid enough will just go on 'the benefit' - which those still working pay for.
Somehow it doesn't seem like THAT would work though eh?

I find it hard to believe 'odious legislation' and 'corporates' have driven wages and the average persons lifestyle down.

The biggest effect on the 'average' Kiwi would be spiraling property prices and the comensurate large mortgage.
Mostly created by overseas buyers and property developing individuals - NOT corporates and odious legislation.

opinions are like arseholes scumdog; thanks for offering yours.

sure, mortgage rate increases are largely a result of foreign action or a fixation on inflation that seems to benefit foreign traders and currency raiders more than it does Kiwis (under the Reserve Bank Act): do you think National will lessen this it exacerbate it?

The ever decreasing real wages of Kiwis however is NOT a function of mortagage debt, it is a function of successive governments selling out to Milton Friedmanist economic policies. All across the globe, Yank and Euro controlled institutions, particularly the IMF and World Bank who use corruption, bullying and blackmail to take control of whole economies in order to channel income from those nations to the US or Europe. That has left resource rich nations unable to provide for their citizens. This all in the name of Capitalism of course.

As an International Sales Manager competing for said funding (IMF, World Bank) out of Singapore, I experienced this corruption personally. The competition for such funding comes with political strings attached and massive amounts of money is channeled to those who support the system. Suharto of Indonesia is a prime case. His people are still paying the debt to those international capitalists that their corrupt leader abused in order to secure billions for himself, his family and his friends. Most of those 'friends' are STILL living the high life on that money while the ordinary citizen pays the bill and works for the likes of Nike as modern day serfs.