Robert Taylor and idleidolidyll's political debating thread

[Ocean1]

It seems to me that businesses/capitalism object to Governments intervening in the market place to protect society but seem to be quite happy to lobby for such intervention to protect their own interests.

Smells a bit hypocritical to me.

Dude I’m never sure if you’re taking the piss or not.

The US is the most litigiously frivolous culture on the planet, a fact which has fuck all to do with either business or capitalism. Any system that awards punitive damages with more than 5 zeros attached against a microwave oven manufacturer because their manual failed to explicitly preclude the drying of poodles needs all the help it can get.

Hypocritical? It can’t possibly beat blaming someone else for what you shove in your own mouth, no matter how attractive the producer makes it.

[Clockwork]

As I see it, the US litigation process is nothing more than an extension of their free market approach to life. If the Government wont intervene in the market then the only protection their society has is redress through the courts. It appears to me that this has pretty much been the approach until now and it can be argued that that it is a perfectly reasonable means of moderating the excesses of the market. "Don't have Government compulsion to make safer products, simply be prepared to wear the litigious consequences of making/selling dangerous crap!" Heck, it may be the ultimate in democracy!

I'm not saying that I agree with this method of control but I can see its merits.

If a litigant can fund the case and find a Lawyer who can make the case why shouldn't they be allowed to give it a try? Are we now saying legislative intervention in the market is not always a bad thing?

[avgas]

Poverty is bullshit. Its a figure calculated outside of real life.
There should be 0% poverty in NZ, otherwise what is the point of having a benefit system.
The only reason we have poverty in NZ is because we have morons here. Therefore a survey on Poverty in NZ is more a survey of basic animal instinct intelligence. We all need food, water and shelter - morons seem to think they can live without. Good thing dogs don't.

[Ocean1]

As I see it, the US litigation process is nothing more than an extension of their free market approach to life. If the Government wont intervene in the market then the only protection their society has is redress through the courts. It appears to me that this has pretty much been the approach until now and it can be argued that that it is a perfectly reasonable means of moderating the excesses of the market. "Don't have Government compulsion to make safer products, simply be prepared to wear the litigious consequences of making/selling dangerous crap!" Heck, it may be the ultimate in democracy!

I'm not saying that I agree with this method of control but I can see its merits.

If a litigant can fund the case and find a Lawyer who can make the case why shouldn't they be allowed to give it a try? Are we now saying legislative intervention in the market is not always a bad thing?

The legislation you posted is an attempt to minimise unreasonable market expectations, more a comment on the inability of consumers to take responsibility for their own actions than an indictment of supply quality.

Any business that aims to be around for any length of time generally doesn’t produce crap on purpose. There are smash and grab merchants out there though, and it’s appropriate for government to take measures to control them on behalf of consumers.

I’ve watched our system change from a standards based control system to something not far removed form the legislative bullshit you see in the states, only here it’s OSH and ACC generated bullshit. Instead of setting minimum quantifiable standards for so suppliers know where the goalposts are the approach now is “do what you want, but if anyone gets hurt it’s automatically the manufacturer/suppliers fault”.

[MisterD]

And unemployment has come down more quickly in poor regions such as Northland, Gisborne and Hawkes Bay than in rich regions such as Auckland and Wellington.

That's probably got a lot to do with the fact that you can't move to "poor" regions and expect to claim a benefit anymore...

[SPman]

Poverty is bullshit. Its a figure calculated outside of real life.
There should be 0% poverty in NZ, otherwise what is the point of having a benefit system.
The only reason we have poverty in NZ is because we have morons here. Therefore a survey on Poverty in NZ is more a survey of basic animal instinct intelligence. We all need food, water and shelter - morons seem to think they can live without. Good thing dogs don't.

Its a bit like being poor - I think of it as a state of mind! I've spent large chunks of my life with fuck all money, but, I didn't consider myself poor - just fecking broke! Poverty is real, - it's how you react to and handle it, that counts. Poverty of mind and spirit, combined with limited or no money is the killer, and money won't necessarily fix that!

[Ocean1]

Its a bit like being poor - I think of it as a state of mind! I've spent large chunks of my life with fuck all money, but, I didn't consider myself poor - just fecking broke! Poverty is real, - it's how you react to and handle it, that counts. Poverty of mind and spirit, combined with limited or no money is the killer, and money won't necessarily fix that!

Ohyez, definitely an attitude, rather than an income. Many "capitalists" are in debt up to their eyeballs and have an income below the minimum adult wage, they’re risking their all against their projected success, the epitome of capitalism. They’re poor in every monetary sense, but they’re content to take that risk, and they're motivated to make it work.

I am also familiar with the lassitude going hand in hand with your “poverty of spirit”, it can be a fucking struggle sometimes for most of us to make the effort, to believe in yourself. Some never feel any different, but handouts are not the help they need.

[Robert Taylor]

Really busy at present and no time to reply to the plethora of quotes i have or read the thread through but hope to be back later today and poke a few eyes out.

In the meantime for those who think this government is a failure on economic policy:

Poverty - gaps finally closing

5:00AM Friday October 19, 2007
By Simon Collins

Gaps between rich and poor New Zealanders have finally started to close.
Ethnic groups and regions that have lagged behind for years are starting to share in economic growth.
The Ministry of Social Development's annual Social Report shows shrinking gaps between Maori and Europeans in important areas such as education and income.
And unemployment has come down more quickly in poor regions such as Northland, Gisborne and Hawkes Bay than in rich regions such as Auckland and Wellington.
The ministry's policy manager of social outcomes, Conal Smith, said groups that had suffered most in the recession of the early 1990s were now profiting from prosperity.
"We are in the middle of one of the longest periods of sustained prosperity since the end of World War II, so you'd be a little bit surprised if this wasn't happening," he said.
"For Maori, we see improvements in almost everything we can compare except obesity, and in that case Maori have become only slightly more obese and the population as a whole has got quite a bit more obese.


"The gaps are closing in life expectancy, employment, unemployment and housing affordability."
Not all the figures are so straightforward. The gap between average Maori and European life expectancy widened by 2.4 years between 1985 and 1997, as Maori suffered more from job losses in previously state-owned industries such as forestry.
The gap has narrowed since the mid-90s, but by only 31 weeks, so Europeans still live relatively longer than Maori now than they did 20 years ago.
Maori unemployment has dropped dramatically, from a peak of 25.4 per cent in 1992 to 7.9 per cent last year.
But the European unemployment rate has also dropped, from 7.9 per cent to 2.7 per cent, so the gap has narrowed only slightly.
Maori are more clearly catching up in median incomes, which rose by 15 per cent for Maori between 1997 and last year against 13 per cent for Europeans.
And the proportion of Maori leaving school with at least the final-year qualification of level 2 in the National Certificate of Educational Achievement has jumped from 28.8 per cent to 36.7 per cent in the past three years - up from 50 per cent to 56 per cent of the European rate.
The four regions showing the fastest growth in incomes between the 2001 and 2006 censuses were all in the traditionally slower-growing South Island.
Otago's median income was up 15.5 per cent, Southland's 15.2 per cent, Canterbury's 14.4 per cent and Nelson/Marlborough/West Coast 13.5 per cent.
The two richest regions, Wellington and Auckland, were under the 11.8 per cent national average increase.
The proportion of people in work grew fastest in Northland, which in 2001 had the lowest employment rate.
The Bay of Plenty, which had the second-lowest employment rate five years ago, had the second-biggest jobs increase.
Wellington and Auckland lifted their employment rates by only about half or less of the national increase.

Hey Idlelefty!

Youve got more than a few eyes to poke out, as I see it youve had your eyes poked out more than anyone on this forum thread, akin to a scene from Hitchcocks ''The Birds''

And I think you should wake up and smell your ( red ) roses! Its easy to reduce unemployment when;

1) In spite of this poxy Government we have had the best period of commodity prices for many a year. Mores the pity we didnt have the continuation of a National led Government ( preferably with Act ) to truly capitalise on it.

2) When over 700 Kiwis a week are being scared away by your lefty mates and this will increase with tax cuts over the Tasman.

3) When you extend welfare / state dependency to include the middle class ( working for families ) Interpretation, over tax them in the first instance and then give some of it back, spending further tax money with blatant propaganda to show how wonderful and benevolent the Government is. You know there is something perverse in that, especially when something like 50,000 extra civil servants have been created to ''co-ordinate'' the Politburos ''money go round'' re-elective schemes. And by definition these extra civil servants are paid beneficiaries.

ETC ETC. The best and most effective socialism is not to over-tax people in the first place, thereby reducing state dependency. Thereby also reducing the number of state employees required, so that they can otherwise engage in activities rather more productive.

If you check my previous posts you will be the first to note that I have concerns about ''unchecked capitalism'', that there should be a number of controls in line with a social safety net that helps people up, rather than creating a lifestyle out of it.

Socialism depends on poverty / high cost of living so that people depend on the state. And the wa....s that are running this country have DELIBERATELY perpetuated this situation. Your even loonier further leftwards mates would embellish this tragedy even further.

I therefore await the inevitability of your signature lefty backlash. Ho hum,yawn. But I do admire your courage in the face of overwhelming numbers that dont subscribe to your diatribes. And pray tell please what you do for a living, unless of course you prefer the anonymity of Zaitsev ( spelling? ) the famed Red army sniper.

[Robert Taylor]

Its a bit like being poor - I think of it as a state of mind! I've spent large chunks of my life with fuck all money, but, I didn't consider myself poor - just fecking broke! Poverty is real, - it's how you react to and handle it, that counts. Poverty of mind and spirit, combined with limited or no money is the killer, and money won't necessarily fix that!

So have I, I have never been poor as such but spent a good many years with very very little discretionary income. But I never ever expected or asked for a handout and have worked and worked to build up my business, that is not a unique situation. Now that I will be employing people that is one small example of capitalism in action.

If we had Government with policies that were small business friendly we would have more people engaged in truly productive and meaningful activities rather than being dependent on the state.

[Winston001]

idleidolidyll - I can't decide whether you are trolling or completely genuine in your political views.

Assuming you are genuine, can I respectfully suggest that you'll get far more traction with your arguments if you desist from flaming and the occasional abusive post.

What I'm getting at is I'd happily debate with you but when you get drawn into profanity or emotional responses, it becomes difficult to respect other rational posts from you. Tarred with the same brush as it were. Unfair but we all form impressions of each other and it colours our responses - or lack of same.

There is a long-term member here who is communist and I never fail to respect his intellect. I disagree with him but it doesn't matter, his views are sincere and worth reading.

Believe me, taking the higher moral ground and avoiding emotional terms will only gain you respect. And maybe even some grudging converts!

[98tls]

Communist and intellect Not something i would normally agree with but would genuinely like to be swayed..got a link ?

[idleidolidyll]

That's probably got a lot to do with the fact that you can't move to "poor" regions and expect to claim a benefit anymore...

perhaps so; another example of corporate pandering overcoming relationships with family and friends.
If all my family lives in the Hokianga and I have lived in Auckland for the last 5 years, why CAN'T I go back and be with those I know and love?

[idleidolidyll]

Hey Idlelefty!

Youve got more than a few eyes to poke out, as I see it youve had your eyes poked out more than anyone on this forum thread, akin to a scene from Hitchcocks ''The Birds''

And I think you should wake up and smell your ( red ) roses! Its easy to reduce unemployment when;

1) In spite of this poxy Government we have had the best period of commodity prices for many a year. Mores the pity we didnt have the continuation of a National led Government ( preferably with Act ) to truly capitalise on it.

2) When over 700 Kiwis a week are being scared away by your lefty mates and this will increase with tax cuts over the Tasman.

3) When you extend welfare / state dependency to include the middle class ( working for families ) Interpretation, over tax them in the first instance and then give some of it back, spending further tax money with blatant propaganda to show how wonderful and benevolent the Government is. You know there is something perverse in that, especially when something like 50,000 extra civil servants have been created to ''co-ordinate'' the Politburos ''money go round'' re-elective schemes. And by definition these extra civil servants are paid beneficiaries.

ETC ETC. The best and most effective socialism is not to over-tax people in the first place, thereby reducing state dependency. Thereby also reducing the number of state employees required, so that they can otherwise engage in activities rather more productive.

If you check my previous posts you will be the first to note that I have concerns about ''unchecked capitalism'', that there should be a number of controls in line with a social safety net that helps people up, rather than creating a lifestyle out of it.

Socialism depends on poverty / high cost of living so that people depend on the state. And the wa....s that are running this country have DELIBERATELY perpetuated this situation. Your even loonier further leftwards mates would embellish this tragedy even further.

I therefore await the inevitability of your signature lefty backlash. Ho hum,yawn. But I do admire your courage in the face of overwhelming numbers that dont subscribe to your diatribes. And pray tell please what you do for a living, unless of course you prefer the anonymity of Zaitsev ( spelling? ) the famed Red army sniper.

actually it's quite likely to be BECAUSE of this government. Those whacky right wingers refuse to believe it I know but the current government has managed to both help business AND help the disadvantaged in society.

The really dumb inference in your post is that migration to Aussie will cease or reverse just because National may be elected: hilarious shit! Much of the migration is from immigrants to NZ who had no intention of ever staying here in the first place; they merely saw NZ citizenship as a back door into Aussie. Others will continue to go just because we live so far from anywhere but of course suckers and propagandists like you will always suggest that it's BECAUSE of a left wing government regardless of the facts: you're nothing without fallacy.

Recognition of the needs of the 'middle class' are merely sensible. Many so called middle class folk are struggling too as free market capitalism sends our livelihoods and profits off shore with fuck all regard to the damage that does to NZ society. The mean income for a family in NZ is only $%000 more than the mean for an individual. Think about it; if that's the case, our so called 'middle classes' with a wife and 2 kids to look after are just as vulnerable to predatory foreign rape as the poor are and generally they have higher levels of debt and therefore exposure.

Socialism doesn't depend on poverty at all; that's merely more of your self centred right wing bullshit propaganda. Modern Socialism is a system integrating capitalist monetary systems into socially beneficial policies that ensure that the worst of capitalism is held at bay and the disadvantaged have equal opportunity in life.

The oft repeated 'personal responsibility' whine from you self centred greedy ACT supporters ignores the fact that the original society in NZ was collectivist and that a great deal of the population is collectivist or comes from collectivist societies. The individualist point of view is used as a propaganda tool to divide and conquer allowing more and more destruction of the social system to the extent that it would be unrecoverable as per the USA where the same bullshit was used alongside tax cuts, increasing powers for corporations etc to destroy collective social systems and replace them with systems based on greed, self serving individualism and wanton abuse.

[idleidolidyll]

If we had Government with policies that were small business friendly we would have more people engaged in truly productive and meaningful activities rather than being dependent on the state.

so whatever you do, don't vote national. they'll sell NZ out to big business in the blink of an eye as they have done in the past

[Hitcher]

so whatever you do, don't vote national. they'll sell NZ out to big business in the blink of an eye as they have done in the past

An excellent idea. Instead let's hand over the running of a multi-billion dollar economy to some commie meat-raffle organisers and some tree-huggers that nobody actually voted for.