Wire (cheese cutter) barriers

**swbarnett** · 23rd October 2007, 19:54

Originally Posted by imdying

As part of living in a small backwater country, I accept we don't have endless dollars to spend. We could always spend more, better seal, better signage, etc etc

The issue here is not spend less and save fewer lives. It's spend less and make the road safer for one sector and more dangerous for another. This is a form of prejudice and as such is unacceptable.

**illusivemenace** · 23rd October 2007, 20:01

Originally Posted by Ixion

Further development.

I have been contacted by a Ms Vivienne Keohane, who is a North Shore City Councillor.

I have spoken with her. She has had reservations about these barriers for some time. She has tried to raise these concerns at Traffinz (what that ?) conferences in the past and been stifled with the response that "a concrete barrier would be just as bad".

She is supportive ,and willing to help. Anyone on the North Shore, it would be no bad thing to contact her and cement the relationship . keohane@slingshot.co.nz ; 09 444 7694. Contact details are a matter of public record (on her website) , and I cleared publication with her.

This "concrete barrier is just as bad " keeps coming up. I know it's false, but I've not put it to the test. Has anyone actually had experience of hitting a concrete barrier ? or any other sort? So they can give a first hand statement.

Also , she asked (and this also keeps coming up) , have there been other injuries (or deaths?) as a result of hitting the barriers. Has anyone hit them (on a bike, obviously) and lived to tell the tale ? (In NZ - I know there are cases overseas)

if the concreate barriers are just as bad wouldnt it be cheaper for speed way tracks to install cheese cutters for the solo bikes n side cars

**illusivemenace** · 23rd October 2007, 20:13

Originally Posted by sunhuntin

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Community/M...eadid=21155593

im girlgeorgina over there

aaaarrrrhhhh some people are sooo fucken ignorent

**swbarnett** · 23rd October 2007, 20:14

Originally Posted by Dodger

I did talk about this, and got the impression that concrete had much lower maintenance costs, but want as practical.
Needs more room, costs more to install, cant be lowered to allow traffic to drive over etc.

If wire rope barriers are installed correctly they require a 6m wide corridor. Concrete barriers aren't that wide.

**swbarnett** · 23rd October 2007, 20:14

Originally Posted by Grinner

IMO lane seperation is a good thing. How you achieve it is the question ?
A nice wide grass verge would be the prefered choice then concrete barriers ( easiest to slide along ) and armco ( you still hit the support posts ) last.
Wire rope should be an obvious no no except under the utmost space constaints ie just north of Wellington.

Again, wire rope barriers require a 6m corridor!

**sunhuntin** · 23rd October 2007, 20:17

best lane seperation i ever saw was in northern ontario. 2 lanes per direction, with one huge ditch in the middle... must have been several meters wide, and was filled with shrubs and things. bloody great idea. [nice and scenic too]

**JKWNZ** · 23rd October 2007, 20:19

Isn't it a little strange that in NZ its the motorcyclist who has to prove that wire barriers pose a risk?

Surely its up to Transit to prove they aren't a risk not the other way around!

**swbarnett** · 23rd October 2007, 20:19

Originally Posted by Jim2

The correct response to any query from a motorcyclist to any arm of Government is: "Motorcyclists are 14 times more likely to be involved in an accident."

The problem with this statement is that it assumes we are all of the same riding ability. Take away all novices and overconfident riders and this figure would be much lower.

**illusivemenace** · 23rd October 2007, 20:23

Originally Posted by sunhuntin

theres also a string of it on the first north bound corner heading into *fuck, whats that name of the small village right before wangas? mind blank!*
i was heading home one night from welly [return run of the trip earlier detailed] and had moved left to let some traffic pass... or at least, that was the plan. i remembered just in time there was a string of cutters... hauled the bike back right as fast as i could then. fuckin shit... couldnt see it that time either.

all its protecting there is a nice grass run off, several meters before a farmers fence. around wangas, most of the cutters on the sides of road, protecting nothing, but preventing the use of run off areas. stupid and pointless.

id like attend that meeting in taupo, but i likely wont be able to get off work, bugger it.

and the paraparas (sh 4) wanganui to raetahi

**limbimtimwim** · 23rd October 2007, 20:27

Originally Posted by JKWNZ

Simple physics and the recent tragedy qualify it is a risk I would have thought

Their own barrier standard says that more exposed edges mean more risk to pedal and motorcyclists.

That report basically says "Wait and see what happens".

Thanks for being proactive Transit, you rock.

**sAsLEX** · 23rd October 2007, 20:32

Originally Posted by Jim2

Did that. They called into question the validity of a report commissioned by the European Parliament. FFS.

Hence my rant earlier on. There's no point. We're not arguing with reasonable individuals.

That is funny since most NZ laws regarding vehicles require any standard, not a particular one , but just a standard to pass.

Seems to be they are dodging the issue here.

**sunhuntin** · 23rd October 2007, 20:36

Originally Posted by illusivemenace

and the paraparas (sh 4) wanganui to raetahi

you are right... ive only done that road a few times, and wasnt looking for that shit last time i went up there... will take a better look next time. [was too wet and windy last weekend to focus on anything but the road, lol.]

**Max Preload** · 23rd October 2007, 20:37

Originally Posted by Matt_TG

I wonder how Allan Kirk feels now?

He doesn't give a fuck as long as there's a problem he's sitting pretty on the gravy train - that's how 'consultants' work - if you're not part of the problem, there's plenty of money to be made in delaying the solution! We've exchanged a few heated emails since Monday - claims he was misquoted on some points and took Transit to task on the rope barriers, but still thinks they're a good idea on Centennial Highway because it's only a 70km/h zone.

Some snippets from where he was putting in lots of effort telling me he didn't care what I thought of him, whilse trying to change what I thought of him...

Originally Posted by Allan Kirk

"That being said, I have at one point stated that I reluctantly accept the wire rope barrier on the 70kph section of Centennial Highway in Wellington since the risk the barrier poses to motorcyclists AT THAT POINT are less than the risk created by vehicles crossing the median area. That was proven in couple of years ago when a truck was prevented from going head-on too on-coming riders by that barrier.

On the other hand, there is no excuse for Transit to try to save money by installing those barriers where it is quite viable to install other types of barrier, such as on Auckland motorways. Indeed, I took a Transit official to task on that very subject at a national ACC meeting in the past month. I might add that the Transit official was completely dismissive of my concerns.

If, perhaps, you wanted to actually achieve anything by taking someone to task, perhaps you might like to have a word with the Ulysses motorcycle group who's national and local organisation recently refused to work with me to try to get Transit to remove those barriers... It wasn't their business, they said."

Sure, the wire barrier might be a lower risk than having nothing, but it's still a considerably higher risk than a concrete barrier. I'd think that truck ploughing through the wire rope pseudo-barrier on the southern motorway this morning and taking out 2 cars adequately illustrates that.

As far as I'm concerned, the guy's a total cock - a self-professed motorcycle safety expert that carefully avoids disclosing his qualifications, probably because he doesn't actually have any. If anyone has any information about his or anyone in his organisations relevant qualifications, I'd like to see it.

He even had the cheek to suggest that rope barriers are narrower than their concrete counterparts.

Originally Posted by Me to Allan

"If there's room for a wire barrier, there's more than enough room for a concrete one, which benefits all motorists"

Originally Posted by Allan Kirks reply

I gather that you are not an engineer... The footprint of a concrete barrier is far bigger than that of a wire rope barrier.

Hello? McFly! Open your eyes and look at the majority of the length of the Auckland motorway system - you could reach out and slap the outstretched hand of another biker going the opposite direction over a concrete barrier and the movable barrier on the bridge sits on the white lines with the lanes immediately either side being fully utilised, FFS! I'm going to get some photos from overbridges and email them to him. Not that it'll do any good - in his last email he said "This communication is now closed" as if he had some veto powers.

If he doesn't respond with answers to my questions, I'll just fax him until he does. Hell, I'm going through Masterton before christmas - I might even pay the silly old coot a personal visit!