Robert Taylor and idleidolidyll's political debating thread

[Grahameeboy]

Graemeboy;

I might disagree with the existence of a deity and believe that organised religion is abusive and the cause of a great deal of humanity's problems but I don't for a minute deny you the right to practice what you believe in as long as you don't abuse others in doing so.

I would not disagree with you there. My Church is organised, my faith is personal. I do not preach to others to convert. I am not perfect, but each morning I aim to try.

What REALLY pisses me off though is that the opposite is not quite as true.

I understand that. Sadly there is a hierachy in Churches that does spoil it at times.

I refuse to sing the NZ National Anthem for instance because MY right NOT to believe in a deity is abused and ignored in that to support my country I am expected to beg 'god' for the privelage.

I am not sure that is the intention of the anthem. You don't have to sing it to support your Country. I guess it is more a tradition.


Change the flag? I don't give a damn! Get rid of that divisive bloody national anthem so all of us can feel like New Zealanders? FUCK YES!

So you cannot feel like a NZer otherwise. See you are allowing a traditional anthem to control how you feel?

........................

[scumdog]

btw: capitalism as practiced by the USA and Britain has long used military and covert violence to control and manipulate entire economies.

Sort of the way communism practiced by China and USSR used military and covert violence to control and manipulate entire economies? (and populations).

[Grahameeboy]

But don't christians place themselves in the hands of a non existant deity whose minions tell them what is right and what's not?

Sounds like a lack of control to me

My Dad is against religion so I was not exposed to Christianity.

Well Jesus mixed with unbelievers. Yes the so called minions may tell me what to do in and to an extent as a Christian I should obey the Laws. However, most Laws are not unreasonable so do not in reality affect my freedom or personal freedom and if I break the Law, lets say speeding, then it is not a major. Obviously murder, fraud etc are different.

This is what I guess I am saying. We live in a Society but it is how we deal with Society that makes the difference and God is my ultimate provider.

[Grahameeboy]

Sort of the way communism practiced by China and USSR used military and covert violence to control and manipulate entire economies? (and populations).

In a way there is not a massive difference between the two. One is legalised and the other is not.....

[idleidolidyll]

........................

you're welcome top practice your religion but you seem to miss my point re the national anthem.

the anthem is supposed to represent ALL new zealanders and we are also supposed to be a secular state.

why then is it only representative of the MINORITY of kiwis who say they are religious?

it's divisive BECAUSE it excludes people like me who think religion is nonsense and that it's an insult to my intelligence to ask a non existent myth to save my country.

[idleidolidyll]

Sort of the way communism practiced by China and USSR used military and covert violence to control and manipulate entire economies? (and populations).

indeed but we're talking about socialism and capitalism not communism.

different ideology; can you work it out?

BTW: As I've said many times, the authoritarian takeovers CHANGED socialist states into dictatorships; the OPPOSITE of socialism

[Grahameeboy]

you're welcome top practice your religion but you seem to miss my point re the national anthem.

the anthem is supposed to represent ALL new zealanders and we are also supposed to be a secular state.

why then is it only representative of the MINORITY of kiwis who say they are religious?

it's divisive BECAUSE it excludes people like me who think religion is nonsense and that it's an insult to my intelligence to ask a non existent myth to save my country.

I thought that slightly more than 50% of Nzers were Christian??

It excludes you because it was written before you were born by a Christian Society and like a lot of these things, it becomes more a tradition than a religious matter.

It is you who decides it is wholly religious based.

I am sure you would be happy if you voted for your party who were elected as the Govt when only 30% of Nzers voted...........

[imdying]

the anthem is supposed to represent ALL new zealanders and we are also supposed to be a secular state.

http://www.stats.govt.nz/census/2006...=para012Master

Over half of NZers listed themselves as Christian, and that's a single religion.

[idleidolidyll]

I thought that slightly more than 50% of Nzers were Christian??

No, not if self reported. The 50+% figure is CALCULATED and includes atheists like me who were baptised because we didn't have a choice. The Catholic Church thinks you remain theirs until you die or are excommunicated. That's patent bullshit; I've never believed in mythical creatures and still don't.

It excludes you because it was written before you were born by a Christian Society and like a lot of these things, it becomes more a tradition than a religious matter.

It was written by people who knew no better, ignored the native people of the country and it should have been changed the second we declared ourselves a secular democracy; that's the point Graemeboy

It is you who decides it is wholly religious based.

I didn't say wholly, I said it excludes me. The very words are repugnant to me:
"God of nations blah blah" "God defend NZ blah blah"

exclusive, divisive superstition

I am sure you would be happy if you voted for your party who were elected as the Govt when only 30% of Nzers voted...........

I would be very happy if 100% of citizens of age voted but that's not likely. The 30% number is for local bodies, the national turnout is much higher, more than 80% in fact:
"

• Voter turnout reached 80.9 percent in 2005, a slight increase on the 2002 turnout of 77.0 percent.
• Voter turnout in New Zealand has averaged 86 percent between 1981 and 2005."

from: http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PubRe...c5d2f2fe02.htm

That's the point after all. If I believe in socialism I also must be prepared to accept the decision of the majority each election for that governmental period; and I am.

If national were to be elected i would not try to overthrow them by force, i'd merely be trying to show how deluded the last 'majority' were for the next election.

[idleidolidyll]

http://www.stats.govt.nz/census/2006...=para012Master

Over half of NZers listed themselves as Christian, and that's a single religion.

I stand corrected but I'm pleased to see that the number of people who state that they have no religion is increasing year by year: it seems Kiwis are getting smarter.

Regardless though, if more than a million Kiwis are excluded by the national anthem and that figure is growing; why don't we change it to something INCLUSIVE and not divisive?

[idleidolidyll]

it becomes more a tradition than a religious matter.

No graemeboy, if you had to sing an anthen asking the devil or mohammed for help, i'm sure you'd be disgusted and outraged.

as an atheist living in a secular country i'm disgusted that our anthem is religious

[idleidolidyll]

the acid test: change the anthem so it calls on a different religious myth to save our country and see if the christians whine

lets see an anthem calling for Vishna to save our country on our behalf and watch the christians whine about it.

[scumdog]

the acid test: change the anthem so it calls on a different religious myth to save our country and see if the christians whine

lets see an anthem calling for Vishna to save our country on our behalf and watch the christians whine about it.

Sure, when the Vishna worshippers outnumber the Christians I'd have no problem with that.

But it ain't goin' to happen sunshine.

If we had NO anthem I wouldn't give a fat rats arse - after all, what the hell is there to worry about in an anthem in the greater scheme of things?? - there's a shitload more important stuff to worry about in life than who beleives in what and an anthem.

[Grahameeboy]

No graemeboy, if you had to sing an anthen asking the devil or mohammed for help, i'm sure you'd be disgusted and outraged.

as an atheist living in a secular country i'm disgusted that our anthem is religious

True but unlikely so not for debate.

I used to sing the British anthem before I was a Christian and it just gave me a feeling of my roots............

You need to chill........

[Grahameeboy]

Sure, when the Vishna worshippers outnumber the Christians I'd have no problem with that.

But it ain't goin' to happen sunshine.

If we had NO anthem I wouldn't give a fat rats arse - after all, what the hell is there to worry about in an anthem in the greater scheme of things?? - there's a shitload more important stuff to worry about in life than who beleives in what and an anthem.

Totally agree Sir....