Attacking Transit on another front:

[swbarnett]

Is that considered the correct thing these days? I thought 'them' and 'their' were plural varieties, not singular gender-neutral.

I used to object to them and their for the same reason until I found out that they were used in a singular gender neutral context during the 1800s (or earlier, can't quite remember). Language is a living thing and, as such, meanings change over time.

[Nikolai_V]

I`m new to this forum but I am a roading engineer (currently with Transit) but most of my time with consultants and contractors and I find it difficult to believe that the installation of Chevron signs at a corner to provide deliniation is actually making the road more dangerous? And that your response to this is to ask the minister of transport to look into the matter - bit of an over reaction don`t you think?

Couple of things could be causing the issue 1. Diamond grade retroreflective material used instead of Engineering Grade, 2. signs not installed with the correct tilt (signs are not meant to be perpendicular to teh approaching vehicle, but instead aligned so as to reflect a good proportion of light to the side of the road, avoiding glare) or 3. your headlights are incorrectly adjusted and not aiming far enough left.

all of those things are easily checked and rectified, rather than calling for their removal which WOULD actually be unsafe. Believe it or not but peoples ability to percieve carriageway features at night degrades with age, and these signs are generally put up either in response to accidents, or at out of context curves.

Call your local Transit office, and let them know where the signs are located, and what the problem was - some one will head out at night and check their installation. We have safety engineers for this reason and despite the overall tone of this forum we don`t hate motorcyclists and want to kill them all, quite a few of us ride or race and do what we can to make the roads safer.

[MSTRS:Me]

I`m new to this forum but I am a roading engineer (currently with Transit)......{SNIP}..... and despite the overall tone of this forum we don`t hate motorcyclists and want to kill them all, quite a few of us ride or race and do what we can to make the roads safer.

Oh goody. Can you get rid of those effn post/wire killing units.
Thanks.

[swbarnett]

3. your headlights are incorrectly adjusted and not aiming far enough left.

High beam aims straight ahead. They're not a problem when using low beam. I suspect that these signs are actually required because a lot of people don't know how to use their high beam. As a result those of us that do get blinded.

I'd have to say though, on my last night trip in the cage they didn't seem to be that big a problem (maybe they were dirty?).

[Ixion]

High beam aims straight ahead. They're not a problem when using low beam. I suspect that these signs are actually required because a lot of people don't know how to use their high beam. As a result those of us that do get blinded.

I'd have to say though, on my last night trip in the cage they didn't seem to be that big a problem (maybe they were dirty?).

They're bad in a cage, but nowhere near as blinding as on a bike.

Maybe cos of different positioning on road? If they're supposed to deflect the light to the left, then a bike, holding left road edge ready for a right hander, is going to cop the lot. Whereas a cage with the driver over by the centreline misses it ?

Another example I suspect of the Transit mandarins having no fucking clue about the fact that bikes are different, and treating them as two wheeled cars.

I've found the best approach is to turn my headlights off when approaching. So long as nothing's coming ambient light is better than blinded. Always used to ride without headlights on the open road at night, back in the day, everyone did.

[Nikolai_V]

They're bad in a cage, but nowhere near as blinding as on a bike.

Maybe cos of different positioning on road? If they're supposed to deflect the light to the left, then a bike, holding left road edge ready for a right hander, is going to cop the lot. Whereas a cage with the driver over by the centreline misses it ?

Bikes have a different eye height, between cars at about 1.05 to 1.15m, and trucks at 1.8 to 2.05m, and signs are designed so as to reflect (i think 5 degress off parallel) to the light entering them for this scenario. The signs are almost invisible to trucks due to their higher eye height (closer to bikes) so i suspect they`re incorrectly installed. Otherwise i`ve ridden for a few years now and never had an issue - unless high beaming diamond grade signs - then you see them - first I`ve heard of it in correctly installed signs.

A

nother example I suspect of the Transit mandarins having no fucking clue about the fact that bikes are different, and treating them as two wheeled cars.

I've found the best approach is to turn my headlights off when approaching. So long as nothing's coming ambient light is better than blinded. Always used to ride without headlights on the open road at night, back in the day, everyone did.

Nice to be singled out at Transit but i think you`ll find all the RCA`s (road controlling authorities) install chevron boards where justified, (as do almost all other highway agencies worldwide)... Spent a bit of time in engineering and i have to say i`ve never heard of it being a problem - i might look into it with 3M see if it crops up anywhere else, or if it is incorrect material choice...

Headlights off - hmm sounds like a great idea, esp when someone coming towards you with high beam causes your pupils to contract (which happens much faster than they dilate) and you lose your night vision for 10 minutes or so... would work if eveyone didnt use headlights (maybe)

[Nikolai_V]

High beam aims straight ahead. They're not a problem when using low beam. I suspect that these signs are actually required because a lot of people don't know how to use their high beam. As a result those of us that do get blinded.

I'd have to say though, on my last night trip in the cage they didn't seem to be that big a problem (maybe they were dirty?).

The real problem is that with ever increasing traffic volumes, there is less oppurtunity to use high beams, without inconveniencing other road users - you may have noticed this esp. in teh north island v. frustrating.

Hence the need for more deliniation on our roads (and it reduces loss of control crashes cheaply, while improving network efficiency).

[Pixie]

I`m new to this forum but I am a roading engineer (currently with Transit) but most of my time with consultants and contractors and I find it difficult to believe that the installation of Chevron signs at a corner to provide deliniation is actually making the road more dangerous? And that your response to this is to ask the minister of transport to look into the matter - bit of an over reaction don`t you think?

Couple of things could be causing the issue 1. Diamond grade retroreflective material used instead of Engineering Grade, 2. signs not installed with the correct tilt (signs are not meant to be perpendicular to teh approaching vehicle, but instead aligned so as to reflect a good proportion of light to the side of the road, avoiding glare) or 3. your headlights are incorrectly adjusted and not aiming far enough left.

all of those things are easily checked and rectified, rather than calling for their removal which WOULD actually be unsafe. Believe it or not but peoples ability to percieve carriageway features at night degrades with age, and these signs are generally put up either in response to accidents, or at out of context curves.

Call your local Transit office, and let them know where the signs are located, and what the problem was - some one will head out at night and check their installation. We have safety engineers for this reason and despite the overall tone of this forum we don`t hate motorcyclists and want to kill them all, quite a few of us ride or race and do what we can to make the roads safer.

If you read my post again,you will see that I have already contacted inTransitgent NZ,they admited it was a mistake they made with the material and that they would fix it as they became aware of the bad areas.Two f'in years later nothing has been done.The chevrons are fuckin useless to describe the shape of corners compared to traditional posts.
None of your stated reasons why these signs are installed explain why they are on every corner north of Kaukapakapa on SH16.
I never said they hate bikers.I actually think the are just plain inept.

They're bad in a cage, but nowhere near as blinding as on a bike.

Maybe cos of different positioning on road? If they're supposed to deflect the light to the left, then a bike, holding left road edge ready for a right hander, is going to cop the lot. Whereas a cage with the driver over by the centreline misses it ?

Another example I suspect of the Transit mandarins having no fucking clue about the fact that bikes are different, and treating them as two wheeled cars.

I've found the best approach is to turn my headlights off when approaching. So long as nothing's coming ambient light is better than blinded. Always used to ride without headlights on the open road at night, back in the day, everyone did.

I find the chevrons are worse in the car than on the bike.
You must have better eyes than me because it is the transition from highly reflected light/oncoming highbeams to dipped that my eyes fail to react quickly to.Most people over 30 agree with me when I have canvassed their opinion on this subject.

[Ixion]

Headlights off - hmm sounds like a great idea, esp when someone coming towards you with high beam causes your pupils to contract (which happens much faster than they dilate) and you lose your night vision for 10 minutes or so... would work if eveyone didnt use headlights (maybe)

You see the distant glow of oncoming headlights from quite away off, and over hills and round bends. Especially if there are clouds. And of course a full moon is as good as day. I can read a newspaper by starlight when free of light pollution. Cloudless moonless nights are tricky.

[WelshWizard]

we don`t hate motorcyclists and want to kill them all

I hope this is just a mistake as it read as though you don't hate motorcyclist,
But then go on to and want to kill them all,
Is
We don't want to kill them all what is really meant

[Patch]

People don't ride in the rain. Wally.

well the fast ones don't . . . apparently, prob don't wanna get their expensive factory sponsored pussy suits dirty or just chicken shite.

Bikes have a different eye height, between cars at about 1.05 to 1.15m, and trucks at 1.8 to 2.05m, and signs are designed so as to reflect (i think 5 degress off parallel) to the light entering them for this scenario. The signs are almost invisible to trucks due to their higher eye height (closer to bikes) so i suspect they`re incorrectly installed. Otherwise i`ve ridden for a few years now and never had an issue - unless high beaming diamond grade signs - then you see them - first I`ve heard of it in correctly installed signs.

eh? invisible to trucks - bullshit

you think those mirrors (signs) are bad in cars, try approaching them (it) in a truck - we use more light, so it compounds the issue - thought you engineers knew how to add.


They probably aren't a problem in the whop whops, so why not step outside your office, cross the strait an into the Mainland where the problems actually are.


If people knew how to drive properly, we wouldn't need these stupid mirrors (signs).

[swbarnett]

The real problem is that with ever increasing traffic volumes, there is less oppurtunity to use high beams, without inconveniencing other road users - you may have noticed this esp. in teh north island v. frustrating.

Hence the need for more deliniation on our roads (and it reduces loss of control crashes cheaply, while improving network efficiency).

So what you're saying is that you're catering to people that can't drive and penalising those that can?

This is just typical of the NZ attitude - throw on a band-aid instead of actually trying to fix the problem. If a driver can't be bothered to use their high beam they deserve to be surprised by a corner. Don't waste our money, give it to the educators.

Your argument about not being able to use the high beam doesn't wash either. When there's oncoming traffic the corner signs aren't necessary as the oncoming lights combined with your own are more than enough to guide you round the corner.

[Nikolai_V]

You know, i envy my friends who decided to go into medicine rather than engineering. Trying to save peoples lives as a doctor doenst normally earn them resentment, and most people don`t tell them how to do their jobs. Maybe we should just give up as a profession, and then see how many people get wiped out on the roads. (but thats right we dont care as most of them are 'cage' drivers so unworthy of sharing our roads).

Not that that will affect the super riders on here ( how many of you have had a crash in your riding career??) who are above the laws of physics and more mundane ones such as traffic regs. Isnt it amazing how motorcyclists and boy-racers/performance car enthuiasts use the same arguments to justify their over representation in crashes? Given that motorcyclists kill more motorcyclists (by inattention, inappropriate speed, plain stupidity) than car drivers or the environment maybe our attitudes need looking at.

Even spent any time with amulance officers? Ask them about sunny sunday afternoons, and how many riders end up being killed out on rides in the country (in single vehicle situations) This happens all over the world... Bloody depressing.

I`ve ridden most days in the past 12 years since getting my license at 15, (and was riding dirt bikes long before then), rain, hail and snow (which we get down here). i`ve lived in auckland, lane split with the best of them, raced, toured, the works.

I`m not some fascist safety nazi, just someone in the industry, sick of having to explain to co-workers and auditors why we (as bikers) seem to engage in near suicidal behaviour on such a regular basis, and why we shouldnt be legislated out of existence to protect ourselves...

Personal freedom is fine, (at least in that regard, when the red mist comes down we typically only kill ourselves unlike the child racers who wipe our a car load of their mates), but we arent helping ourselves.

Cage drivers, bikers, who gives a toss what label you stick on them - they all have families, friends, loved ones. Still a tragedy when they die needlessly. I reject the argument that 400 odd deaths a year is acceptable, and statistically insignificant. Those of you who like me have lost relatives / friends for no reason other than they were using the road network for personal mobility will possibly agree. If however you`re so much better in terms of skills, morals, intelligence than the rest of us that you can dismiss this carnage as natrual selection, as dumb people killing themselves, as hopeless cage drivers getting what they deserve, then you probably couldn`t care less until something threatens your safety, ability to enjoy yourself.

I (and others in the industry) think that motorcycling needs to be encouraged as a sustainable alternative to car use (notwithstanding the recreational reasons), as bikers you know the reasons why...

Slag me off all you want, whatever makes you feel better. Personally I enjoy my job, find it rewarding getting a realignment built at a blackspot, preventing crashes. Means I can have a hand in creating some great riding roads in my part of the world.

Back to the topic, signs are installed so as to reflect some of the light back towards the driver (thats how we see things) most truck drivers complain of being unable to see them clearly as the light is being reflected back to a height of about 1.2m (which is where most car drivers eyes are).

Despite the hard time (and abuse) i`m actually doing a literature review at the moment and working with some colleagues to see if this is a systematic problem (in which case we need to look at our policy) or if its isolated poor treatment selection (which can be dealt with at a local level). Personally driving a unfamiliar road at night in the rain - i`ll take the chevrons over road marker posts (but then again i`m not perfect). seems to be a crime to cater for all road users (like those with less than optimal night vision) but wait the cheesecutters
why bother.....

[Ixion]

Firstly, noone is trying to tell you how to do your job. We are commenting on results (not necessarily yours personally) that are unacceptable to us. Taking your doctor analogy, if I go to a doctor, and he gives me medicine that makes me sicker instead of better, I will be asking him for explanations. Even more (this is really in reference to cheesecutters), if I went into hospital for an ingrowing toenail operation, and the doctors called my family in and said "Oh, once we had him knocked out, we realised he had two good kidneys and a good heart. So we ripped them out and put them into three dying people who needed them . Pity he's dead, but as a result three other people won't die. So society is better off, I don't see what you are complaining about". Which is *exactly* your justification argument for cheesecutters (memo to self : remember this analogy) .

Secondly, a question. When these glare thingies are installed, is there any acceptance testing? That is does anyone actually do a drive through to see if they work? If not why not, and if they do why don't they do one on a motorcycle (and truck, too) .

Slagging off the poeple opposed to dangerous road furniture as "boy racers" and "super riders" doesn't help your case. The majoriuty of riders involved here have a lot more than 12 years experience and don't crash (seldom, if ever). Play the ball, not the man.

[ManDownUnder]

People don't ride in the rain. Wally.

I spend a lot of time gliding through "Taranaki Sunshine" though...