Resident Redneck
I dont think you can get the new ones in NZ now, but 2nd hand ones crop up from time to time. The new peice in the states is about US$4700...just a couple of hundred more than a new savage over there. last one I saw for sale over here had 10,000km and was going for $5000
What sort of seat height has the xb9 got?
Bogeyman
Ya got me, 30" ain't exactly short.Originally Posted by South3rn Rid3r
http://www.bikez.com/motorcycles/bue..._xb9s_2004.php
XB12X is though.But a tad more expensive.
Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon
Scotsman on a German
Good on ya for going for something with more torque than hp. I've found it gives real useability in the real world. One of the more important aspects I've found in the bikes that get described as "Torquey" is that it's not so much about peak torque but more about how early the torque is delivered.
A great comparison is my wife's 750 which has around double the hp and the same peak torque as my bike BUT I find that the little Ducati feels far more aggressive because 70% of the Torque gets delivered at about 30% of the way to redline whereas the inline 4 engine doesn't deliver big torque until about 60% of the way to redline. This is just how it feels to me though and has not been scientifically tested.
In space, no one can smell your fart.
Nana
Have not read whole thread because there are lot of technical answers to a question that is difficult to answer by even those who know.
I look at as such:
Horsepower wins races, Torque sells bikes.
Naughty Gentleman Biker
I was just off to bed when I spotted the bikes names. what the hecky peck is a buell blast, Ive never heard of it in pomland and I've roasted me nuts on a few Buells. I have heard of mcsavage though,they stopped selling them in blighty years ago.
I'll just google the blast thing before I go sleepies. Have fun whatever you choose.
Oh bugger
Scotsman on a German
IT's a funky little single cylinder bikeI was just off to bed when I spotted the bikes names. what the hecky peck is a buell blast, Ive never heard of it in pomland and I've roasted me nuts on a few Buells. I have heard of mcsavage though,they stopped selling them in blighty years ago.
I'll just google the blast thing before I go sleepies. Have fun whatever you choose.
In space, no one can smell your fart.
Here for the arcade.
I think the bikes sound so close together in hp/torque that what should really concern you over what to get is style, comfort, price, condition, etc.
ArseBiscuit
Saw this described as a boxing analogy somewhere recently.
Torque is how hard a boxer can punch.
HP is how fast he can punch.
Geriatric hoon
I saw written somewhere that torque is what is produced by one engine revolution. Horse power is that figure multiplied by the number of revs.
The various analogies for buckets etc therefore seem to work.
That still doesn't really convey what the torque figure actually means in the real world. If I recall correctly, the torque figure for the Hornet 900 engine is in the same ballpark as the torque setting for the rear axle nut. Which example may provide a reference point. Although I do stand to be corrected by underemployed engineers etc
There is a grey blur, and a green blur. I try to stay on the grey one. - Joey Dunlop
Bogeyman
Less, it's a static snapshot of the force available at any given time. And yes the description of HP is exactly correct, but because torque reduces at higher revs, (even though the HP initially keeps climbing) eventually HP numbers drop also.
Torque is the correct unit to describe force available to contribute to acceleration, but because your gearbox acts as a torque multiplier, (shorter levers for a higher gear) you accelerate faster by exceeding the max torque rpm a tad, to take advantage of the "longer lever". In fact maximum acceleration is achieved if you change at the rpm which drops the revs smack onto the max torque rpm after the change. Max HP revs have nothing to do with acceleration at all, it's just that that's usually about where most engines need to change to achieve the above.
Doesn't sound enough to describe the kick in your arse it produces does it? Probably about right though, and if you could keep that force going at the back wheel at a couple of hundred rpm while nonchalantly navigating said cycle you wouldn't need that fekin' great lump of metal between yer knees.That still doesn't really convey what the torque figure actually means in the real world. If I recall correctly, the torque figure for the Hornet 900 engine is in the same ballpark as the torque setting for the rear axle nut. Which example may provide a reference point. Although I do stand to be corrected by underemployed engineers etc
Need a big breakfast though...
Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon
Homo Sapiens Vulgaris
In the modern world there are a set of units called SI units - they are as follows:
Torque - measured in Newton-Meters or Nm for short.
Energy (or work if you insist) - measured in Joules or just J for short.
Power (or rate of work) - measured in Watt which is equal to Joules per second. If you got 1000 of these you call it a kilo Watt or kW for short.
As for the misunderstanding that high torque will get you out of the corner quicker... Well, if you're wringing an IL4 and got it on the cam I'm sure it'll get you out of the corner just as fast as a super torquey V-twin sitting at half the revs.
If torque was equal to acceleration then I guess tractors (e.g. MF 6499 - 7.4 litre 6 cylinder turbo diesel - 180 kW @ 2,000 RPM and 970 Nm max torque) should be insanely quick to accelerate... However it isn't so - there's also the small matter of gearing and rotational inertia in the engine. Usually the measuring of engine characteristics are made at the flywheel - as such they don't count gearing. I'd imagine that you'll find that torquey bikes have a higher gearing than the more revvy ones.
I guess what's awesome about a big torquey is that you can sit at 2,000 RPM and then twist the grip and you got near maximum acceleration at your disposal immediately - whereas you'd need to down shift a bit on your sportsbike to achieve the same.
It is preferential to refrain from the utilisation of grandiose verbiage in the circumstance that your intellectualisation can be expressed using comparatively simplistic lexicological entities. (...such as the word fuck.)
Remember your humanity, and forget the rest. - Joseph Rotblat
Bogeyman
I didn’t say torque equalled acceleration dude, I said:As for the misunderstanding that high torque will get you out of the corner quicker... Well, if you're wringing an IL4 and got it on the cam I'm sure it'll get you out of the corner just as fast as a super torquey V-twin sitting at half the revs.
If torque was equal to acceleration then I guess tractors (e.g. MF 6499 - 7.4 litre 6 cylinder turbo diesel - 180 kW @ 2,000 RPM and 970 Nm max torque
I guess what's awesome about a big torquey is that you can sit at 2,000 RPM and then twist the grip and you got near maximum acceleration at your disposal immediately - whereas you'd need to down shift a bit on your sportsbike to achieve the same.
As for the rest, perfectly correct, as far as the force available is concerned it matters not what’s producing the torque, or at what revs. The torque delivery characteristics are different though, as you say, between different flavours of machinery. The inertial mass in the tractor is just more work being done, and with bikes that’s more of an issue for high reving IL4s than anything else, because the force wasted in spooling the flywheel/crank mass up is higher. Sometimes slowing it down becomes a problem too, like when you’d really rather the back wheel was braking instead of spooling down all that inertia.
If you take acceleration data a from single-gear test run and compare that to the engine’s torque curve you’ll find the curves are near identical. Not because torque is the only characteristic contributing to acceleration, but because it’s the relevant description of the force required to do the work.
And yes, I ain’t real good at guessing what revs to dial up in which gear on a high-reving, peaky engine to produce the best launch out of a corner without lighting up the rear. You could probably have guessed that if you noticed what I ride…
Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon
Fair weather rider
Well said, Mikkel. To all the people who think torque = acceleration, just put a diesel motor in your bike and own the racetrack!
Torque has no time component, acceleration does. If you are standing on a spanner, failing to turn a nut, you are applying torque, you are not making power (because no work is being done), nor are you accelerating. Torque and acceleration are NOT DIRECTLY related.
Power has a time component (as does acceleration) so the two are directly related. But you can build a "dyno queen" motor that makes lots of horsepower but still produces crappy acceleration.
So how do you work out which bike will perform the best? Ride the fucking things. But if you really want to work it out on paper, it's complicated. You need to know (at least) the following:
Weight of the bike
Overall gearing ratios
Area under the power curve at the revs you will be using at the throttle setting you will be using. (This is very significant on a road bike because you will spend sweet fuck all time at full throttle and high revs).
Again, it is pointless to even try to guess which bike will make you happiest from their maximum HP and torque figures.
As for twins being faster in the twistys, why do the Ducatis always get their asses handed to them on the track? IL4s seem to clean up even on the twistiest of tracks.
Attention shoppers! Outside today, we have a cripple fight. Cripple fight, outside!
ArseBiscuit
Crikey what WSBK races have i been watching for the last 10 years (6 wins by ducati?)
ok it was rigged by the italians, but......
Hardcore Cruiser Biker..OK!
heheh, torque is what causes your pillion to end up sitting on the tarmac when you open the throttle and also what increased sales of cissy bars
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