Legalise Crystal Meth?

[Skyryder]

I was going to leave this one alone but as usual a shit thread turns into a half decent one but some mod does not seem to have the intellect to know the difference.

My take on this.

Theoretically I agree with SPB. But the problem is that once a drug becomes legal then it becomes a commercial product. The early history of opiates in late 19th and early 20th century is a case in point. Heroin, Laudanum were both considered benign and used as a cure all. Some concoctions were even given to children as a sedative for sleeping disorders. This was from ignorance more than anything else and today no such excuse can be given. With the marketing hype that has been associated with tobacco, the macho image for men (Marlboro) and the sophisticated image for woman (Virginia Slims etc.), I have no doubt that within a very short space of time a serious drug epidemic would be result should commercialization occur across the board for all recreational drugs. Of course the associated crime involved to maintain an elicit habit would drop. But there is a serious ethical question here. Do we as a society legalize, and with that commercialize a product knowing that it is harmful to health? We do this with tobacco why not all drugs? This is the question that those that propose that all drugs should be freely available and the removal of both the possession and distribution of drugs should not be a criminal offence. One side of me agrees with this scenario as it removes the hypocrisy of tobacco sales but this fails to take in the greater picture of societies obligation to act in a manner that is going to be of benefit to it’s members. The promotion of any substance that is knowingly harmful can not be condoned in any manner and now that the tobacco is knowingly harmful this ‘substance’ should be removed from sale if for no other reason than to remove the hypocrisy surrounding its continued commercialization. No legislation is not the answer for the drug problems….decriminalization of all drug usage is. This would allow medical treatment for users while dealers, those who sold and profited from this trade, could be prosecuted under current criminal legislation.

This of course is in the perfect world but given the state of the public health system at present where one in seven will suffer a ‘medical mishap’ (Chch Press 16-2-08) decriminalizing can not come fast enough as far as I am concerned. The Public health system due to the free market system that both National and Labour promote will take care of the drug problem by either curing the patients or killing them.


Skyryder

PS I'm not voting in the pole as a protest for removing this thread to the PD.

[CaMo]

It shouldn't be legalized. If it were legal, it would become banal and common to use it (and probably widespread) like alcohol or tobacco. And, I'm sure youngsters would turn to the next illegal thing that ought to be stronger.

Plus, we already have enough drunk drivers on our roads, let's not add people on drugs.

Should alcohol really be legal when most drugs are not? Well, I think that society has a much longer experience and tradition with alcohol than almost any drug, so social pressure creates some acceptable boundaries (although I'm revising this judgement since I've arrived in NZ). However, the laws should be targeted at the sellers and producers of illegal drugs, whereas consumers should receive help instead.



I do. It would take me some effort and the help of other people to find any type of illegal drug, whereas I can easily find legal ones by walking into the appropriate shop.

I agree it shouldn't be lagalised - it is the scum of the earth....

I think people have a longer experience with cannabis than alcohol and I believe alcohol is far more harmfull than pot.

Cannabis is a great medicine and should be legal, if not for recreation as is alcohol then at least for medical reasons. I've read stories from people who have been prescribed prescription drugs for their illnesses and after a few years start feeling done over. They have reported that switching to using cannabis to treat their condition does not have this effect and gets rid of the huge amount of prescription drugs you have to take.

[DMNTD:Me]

Meth is only a problem when abused...fact.

[SixPackBack]

Meth is only a problem when abused...fact.

Another interesting angle to the debate. I still have many friends who smoke pot, many have done so most their lives. Unlike myself they have total control over their habit-why penalise them?

Just how many folk walk a similar road with 'P' is hard to say [would you speak up and risk criminalisation], but I personally know of a hand full of people who have tried 'P', use it occasionally and similarly have total control over consumption.

Drug use is a complex issue and becomes of real concern to society when entering the 'addicted' zone. But be honest folks, to many on KB motorcycles fall squarely into the 'addicted' zone, many of us have spent money on our hobby [perhaps at the expense of our families, our health?].

I still maintain society will not solve its recreational drug issues [that includes the new fad-prescription pills] without decriminalisation. Discussion and soul searching cannot take place against a backdrop of fear and criminalisation.

[SixPackBack]

Just in from the Harold

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/...ectid=10493041

New Zealand's "hopelessly out of date and irrelevant" drug laws need a shake-up to fight a changing narcotics landscape.
That's the message leading drug workers will take to two high-powered conferences in Wellington this week.
At the Beyond 2008 Regional Consultation for Australasia, delegates from community organisations meet to discuss alternative answers to the drug problem.
It is the first time New Zealand groups will have the chance to influence international policy.
The delegates will push for a move away from the predominantly United States-led "war on drugs", to a more treatment-based approach.
"While we can admire their intentions, the cold hard facts tell us that the world community has largely failed in its official drug-control efforts and questions are now being asked about whether the current structures are fit for purpose,"Drug Foundation executive director Ross Bell said.

[Bikernereid]

Nice to see someone being honest about drug use and the negative side effects. So pleased that you got yourself turned around and that you managed to hold your studies and family life together.

I am not being preacy as I have been involved in the stoner and clubbing culture for most of my life and can admit that although I had an amazing time for the most part there is also a darkside to this culture.

Most people seem to think that just cos weed/cannabis isn't classified as high as say coke or heroin (UK) that it must be safer and believe me this is not the case. After working with a patient with cannabis induced psychosis who had personality disorder problems and delusions I have tried to encourage any of my friends who are hardcore weed/cannabis smokers to cut down and give up.

Any form of addiction to a substance can never be good for your health whether fags (yes I smoke), caffeine, weed, P, smack etc.

As a previous heavy user of Cannabis I can attest to the validity of this post.

At the height of my usage well over 20grams a week was consumed, once I stopped the initial resulting [and often very confusing and frightening] mix of eupohoria and chronic want was mostly positive- I knew this was it, no more wasting hundreds of dollars a week and hopefully a far happier family life [just why my loving wife stayed with me is a head scratcher?]

6 months later I enrolled in Engineering courses. A limited degree of higher function was beginning to return and my short term memory had improved measurably.

6 months after that it was time to maximise my health and exercise my battered lungs.
I became high again [after consultation with my Doctor] I found that the THC was still present within the fat cells of my body and was now leaching out while exercising, this caused serious mental issues for me, misery for another two months while the THC left my body.

About a year after that questions arose over the strength of my marriage, after all I was smashed when I married Jackie and had been that way through virtually 15 years. Another round of mental anguish as I considered leaving her and my daughter.
That took probably 6 months to sort its self out.

6 years after giving up life is good, in fact its freekin' awesome. Being straight is the best high available.

At the height of my addiction contact with the Police would have, I am sure, resulted in criminalisation. At no point did I need the Police, what I really needed was Mental health services. I did not and could not receive that help without fear of prison time.

Thousands of fellow Kiwi's face the same dilemma under current law.

[Finn]

On topics such as this, I tend to lean towards a more conservative view however, if legalising P would improve productivity and inject some enthusiasm into a rather mundane race of people, then I'm all for it.

Wake up NZ, take your P.

[kiwifruit]

The question now has to be whether smoke or snort it?
Oh and do you cut it or keep it "clean"?

either way its nasty shit
sure smoking it is far worse in that it fucks your lungs and is "more direct" but snorting the shit (cut or pure) is pretty silly too

dangerous stuff, not many people can handle it

[Ixion]

Another interesting angle to the debate. I still have many friends who smoke pot, many have done so most their lives. Unlike myself they have total control over their habit-why penalise them?

Just how many folk walk a similar road with 'P' is hard to say [would you speak up and risk criminalisation], but I personally know of a hand full of people who have tried 'P', use it occasionally and similarly have total control over consumption.

Drug use is a complex issue and becomes of real concern to society when entering the 'addicted' zone. But be honest folks, to many on KB motorcycles fall squarely into the 'addicted' zone, many of us have spent money on our hobby [perhaps at the expense of our families, our health?].

I still maintain society will not solve its recreational drug issues [that includes the new fad-prescription pills] without decriminalisation. Discussion and soul searching cannot take place against a backdrop of fear and criminalisation.

To my (lamentably ill informed) mind, this perspicious comment (use versus addiction) cuts to the heart of the matter.

It also addresses the question often raised "why ban X when alcohol and tobacco are allowed ?"

That alcohol can be an addiction is indisputable. And, those who a re addicted (alcoholics) often ruin their lives as a result. But, overall, on the complete spectrum of alcohol users, from the hopeless alky breafasting on a bottle of meths, at one end, to the little old lady who takes a glass of sherry at Christmas, at the other, the percentage of actual alcoholics is very small.

I have no figures, but I would guess that probably three quarters of NZ's population take a drink at *some* time. So, maybe 3 million. Of that the number of true alcoholics (as opposed to those who drink more than some busybody thinks they should), is very small. I have seen figures of 5%, quoted by temperance movements, who have a vested interest in the figure being as large as they can make it appear. So the actual figure is hardly likely to be more than that.Probably, much less. Maybe 0.5% ?

So, a small proportion of people suffer addiction. And a huge number enjoy a sociable and pleasant habit. There seems no justification to ban the use of a substance which gives pleasure to many because of its effect on a small minority.

A similar case can be constructed for tobacco, and probably marijuana. Probably more easily since the effects are so much less (actually, based on my own experience, the effects are zero ).

Now, the question is, does this paradigm hold for other drugs? I do not think it does for, say, heroin or cocaine (though I am very willing to be informed otherwise). It seems that once a person is involved with those, they will almost invariably become addicted.

What of P , and other more "modern" drugs? I do not know. As Mr SPB says, statistics must necessarily be most unreliable - no-one is going to admit to using them occasionally.

If they are like alcohol, large numbers of harmless recreatonal users, and a small number of (highly publicised) addicts, then perhaps they should be legalised.

If like heroin, where recreational use leads almost inevitably to addiction , then banned.

When I say that recreational use of heroin leads to addiction, I do not mean that a person cannot use it once and then not ever again. But that it is not possible to have a situation like alcohol, where someone has a regular shot (snort ? how is it taken) on Saturday night, for years , without the need for increasing doses. Of course, my understanding here may simply reflect the propaganda of the holier-than-thou brigade. It is a subject where objectivity is hard to come by. As we can see by the lcoation of this thread.

[RantyDave]

Back by popular demand and polite request.

[DMNTD:Me]

either way its nasty shit
sure smoking it is far worse in that it fucks your lungs and is "more direct" but snorting the shit (cut or pure) is pretty silly too

dangerous stuff, not many people can handle it

Crossing the road is dangerous too mate...as is going for a walk at night in most cities including your fine city.

Mature management of intake and life is fine...just like alcohol and other so-called naughty things.

[kiwifruit]

Crossing the road is dangerous too mate...as is going for a walk at night in most cities including your fine city.

different league and a horribly flawed argument

[DMNTD:Me]

different league and a horribly flawed argument

Yes true...you can control your drug intake but you can't control when someone is going to stab you.

I think at this point that I should add that no I do not consume P...anymore and haven't for many moons.

[kiwifruit]

Yes true...you can control your drug intake but you can't control when someone is going to stab you.

I think at this point that I should add that no I do not consume P...anymore and haven't for many moons.

You can't control its effects on your system though..... etc etc
i'd argue you can control when someone is going to stab you but it seems you CANT, due largely, i suspect, to "p"

[DMNTD:Me]

You can't control its effects on your system though..... etc etc
i'd argue you can control when someone is going to stab you but it seems you CANT, due largely, i suspect, to "p"

Maybe so but you can control the amount of harm it has on your system by managing the amount of in take.
Hey don't get me wrong,it is not good for you however it is NOT as bad as it is made out to be....when moderated.
Abuse of P or of any other substance including coffee is not good for you system. Yes I am well aware that P is considerably worse for you than coffee...I mean come on.


No idea as to what you were referring to with your second comment re being stabbed and P. Maybe that people that stab others are on P?
Surely if that was your point then it was a piss take