100% responsibility

[James Deuce]

I must be one of the 1%'ers as well, as from my few off's I've owned responsibility on each and every one. Period. However Jim2 not matter how much you would like to think that we are in control of everything, we unfortunately are not. I'm going to pick up on the red light thing, as you mentioned it. Lets say, in this example at least, that the cage driver was being pursued by the Police and was traveling at 140km /h when he entered the intersection, leaving you a fraction of a second to see him, no time to react. I doubt even the most alert, aware, most on to it rider could accept responsibility for that one, except maybe to say 'I wish I had never got on the bike this morning'.

I applaud what you are saying, I follow it myself as best I can. I don't know whether your aim is to try and convince people that they are in control at all times so that they believe it, or whether you actually believe yourself. But myself, I'm a realist and I know that not everything is in our hands (or hand).

It's really hard to have this discussion when people firmly seal their ears and eyes and insist that they aren't ever responsible for being part of an incident.

Pilot error for instance can be a huge huge number of things and everyone thinks that identifying those circumstances that lead to the "pilot error" in a specific case can only be a good thing in terms of improving the safety of air travel.

Bikers just want to point at everyone else and say it was their fault and I'm not interested in looking at it any other way or learning from the chain of events that lead to me to be nailed by a Police car entering an Intersection at 140 km/hr. Which I've NEVER seen incidentally. It's more likely to be a Courier or a Bus that rampantly runs a red at highly inappropriate speed.

If you are reacting to your surroundings you've already lost the fight. Your brain can only do 20km/hr. Anything over that is a combination of planning and experience. The biggest contributing factor in any incident is traveling at more than 20 km/hr, and that goes for show jumping, tricycle races, and kite flying. But no biker EVER even considers that they are wildly outside the electro-chemical capabilities of their body on even an urban road. No one in any vehicle does. You've already flagged the whole idea of personal responsibility by exceeding the physical limits of the human body.

But you offset those limitations with skill and experience and planning and you assume that everyone else does. They don't. Nor do they ever accept that they are totally responsible for the damage they do to other people irrespective of who is in the right or wrong.

There's an attitude shift that needs to happen in this particular sphere of influence. The road toll is essentially static because cars have gotten safer but skill levels haven't improved, because most drivers don't care that their skills aren't good enough to avoid hurting other people, because when they strap the metal box on, the passengers, drivers, and riders of other vehicles become depersonalised. Inhuman and therefore a challenge to be surmounted. Not a charming, beautiful, pleasant human being to cherish, but a target to be eliminated, a hated opponent to crush.

You guys don't get the huge scope of personal responsibility, you don't want to contemplate it, you don't want to learn about its implications, and you don't want to apply it. It might limit your fun, the competition of driving on the road, and the chance to vanquish foes on a daily basis.

When you get on a bike with an arm in a cast, a fresh appendectomy scar, and a throbbing hangover, you've basically said I don't give a fuck, it's everybody else's fault if I have an accident.

[James Deuce]

Except displaying consideration and common sense - virtues that are sadly lacking in this day and age!

They're not lacking at all. It's just the average Kiwi becomes a total cunt on the road.

[swbarnett]

I know this has been floated in different ways lately BUT.
What would happen if we all rode with the ATTITUDE that we are 100% responsible for what happens to us on our bikes?
So that fuckwit in the car that just pulled out in front of ya.
You ride in a way that stops you hitting him.
Ditto other road hazards
Could it work? would it change how you ride on the road?

No. This is already how I ride (and drive) and why I'm still alive.

This doesn't stopped me getting pissed at bad driving. I just don't expect anyone else to look after me but me.

[onearmedbandit]

Selective reading Jim. Have a look at some of my posts, I have owned every one of my crashes, ahhh forget it, you'll read what you want to and believe what you want to. Don't go assuming anything about me. Don't want to contemplate it. FFS, I live every day with a reminder how I fucked up 10yrs ago. No one else, me. I'm fine with that. Maybe you are actually not.

How about this one? I remember reading a Two Wheels magazine a number of years back now, I can't remember the scribe but it was 'stories' they have in the back of the magazine from the staff writers. The author was telling a story of being out on a ride once, him and his wife and his mate and his wife. Matey was in front coming up a hill just about to come over a brow when lo and behold a tour bus was overtaking another vehicle in the opposite direction ih his lane. So picture it, just as you come over the brow there is a tour bus directly in front of you. You're doing say 90-100km/h, bus doing say 70-80km/h. Both matey and his wife were killed in the impact. Are you suggesting that the rider was responsible for that crash? That he could've taken action to avoid it? Like what, get off his bike first and inspect that there is no oncoming bus in his lane?

[Fatjim]

I'm sorry, but this sport of talk is futile and boring. It smacks of the same totalitarian logic that the government use to say how often speed is a factor in deaths.

You can always say someone could have done something different, just like you could say that if someone was driving at a different speed a particular accident wouldn't have happened, but often neither is usefull, and more often this type of over analysis is detrimental to determining and fixing the real causes of accidents.

Sure, ride defensively, ride like noboby has seen you, take controll of your own safety, but in the end your number can still come up, dispite all your risk avoidance, because you are not the only human on the road, and dispite your best efforts, there is always someone lurking out there who is able so completely fuck things up that the only safe place for you is home in bed.

[FROSTY:Me]

Guys whats allarming me is that the people participating in this discussion-(Barr 1) are people who have a few years riding experience under our belts.
I guess stupidly my target audience is the 0-2 year riding experience people.

[McJim]

Guys whats allarming me is that the people participating in this discussion-(Barr 1) are people who have a few years riding experience under our belts.
I guess stupidly my target audience is the 0-2 year riding experience people.

You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. The people who most need to learn to take responsibility are the ones least likley to pay attention to a thread about responsibility. Maybe you need to re-title the thread "Radical Sick Bikie boys on crotch rockets" and then you'll have their attention.

I think as longas the mesage keeps getting out there from time to time in a non-accusatory and non patronising manner the message will sink in for more riders.

Keep up the good work Frosty, Jim2 and Katman.

[CookMySock]

Guys whats allarming me is that the people participating in this discussion-(Barr 1) are people who have a few years riding experience under our belts.

It's not so much about riding or driving experience, it's more about the underlying acceptance (or not) that we are in control of our own destiny. Many people have been conditioned to believe that they are along for the ride - and they take what life deals to them. Others dictate to their life what it will be.

When these types of beliefs are so deeply embedded, they are not immeditely obvious to either party, (in particular the person who believes they have no control) so the result is usually an argument of jihad preportions, as each team bash the other into submission on account that they are so blind.

For myself, I am surprised that I bother typing all this crap into a web site somewhere on the net.. maybe I do care that others get it.. or maybe I should just get back to figuring out what to do about my overly firm suspension, or how and when to get a race bike, or how to lose another kilo off my fat arse.

I am rather amazed to see people bash katman so resoundly, complete with insults and veiled threats, where in this thread they are strangely on-topic and supportive of the concept. It seems to me, that in person, kiwis are a perfectly nice bunch, yet behind the keyboard is similar to on the road - overtly brave, rude, dominant, and dangerous. It's kinda damning isn't it.


DB

[Sully60]

Sure, ride defensively, ride like noboby has seen you, take controll of your own safety, .

I agree with this and Frostys 100% responsibility message.
I have had more than my fair share of accidents, or sorry "incidents" on the road and the race track, in all of them it was entirely the situation I had put myself in that resulted in my outcome.

Like Mr Miagi say: "Best way to avoid blow is to not be there when it lands"

They're not lacking at all. It's just the average Kiwi becomes a total cunt on the road. .

I agree with this statement also and I would tend to say the percentage total of cunts to considerate road users is on the increase.
And the scary thing is this applies to more than just road users.

but in the end your number can still come up, dispite all your risk avoidance, because you are not the only human on the road.

Exactley, you can take into account some or most of the actions of other people some or most of the time but not all of them all the time.

This isn't a particularly great example but think back to when that guy was killed by some animal who threw a lump of concrete of a motorway overpass.

He would have had some exceptional situational awareness skills to avoid that one, like staying away from Auckland in the firstplace.

That's as stupid as it sounds but like FJ says how far do you take it?

[Ixion]

I think there is a massive confusion generally between the concepts of control, and responsibility.

No matter how good, defensive, experienced, cautious a rider is there are some things he cannot control or predict. Someone mentioned the lump of rock thrown from a bridge. I recall an incident where a motorcyclist was riding innocently along and a tree branch broke off and fell on his head, killing him.

Do what you will, there are factors outside our control or ability to predict. Eventually any rider may find himself caught in a situation that could not have been avoided , cannot be eliminated. Worst case, that may kill him.

Moreover, we are all human. All of us will make mistakes from time to time. Of commission (going too fast into the corner); of ommission (I didn't notice that car was not going to give way).

But what we CAN do is accept responsibility for our own safety. To me that means rejecting, totally, the concept that "someone else ought to". The other driver ought to give way; the council ought to clear the gravel off the road; the dealer ought to have fitted better tyres.

Accepting responsibility for one's own safety means accepting that NO-one else will (even if they ought to). So, I must do it. The other driver WILL pull out in front of me. My job to deal with it. The council WILL leave gravel on the roads . My job to deal with it. Trucks WILL park on the far side of blind corners. My job to deal with it.

Noone else. Just me. Because saying "He ought to " when you're lying in agony on the road is pointless.

Accept that no-one will do what you think they ought to. Accept that it is your responsibility to get there safely. Eventually, maybe , something will happen that you can't deal with. Shit happens.You can only do what you can. But, it is up to YOU to do that, noone else.

[FROSTY:Me]

yea what he ^^^^^^^ said
One story constantly comes to mind is the one Im probably gonna misquote
Yep Ol Jimmy is the rightest guy in the cemetary/hospital.
Being "right" don't keep ya alive

[Okey Dokey]

This reminds me of Jim2's recent thread about attitude. I think it is important to be in the right frame of mind when riding. I like to focus myself while putting on my gear: leathers, boots, gloves, helmet. Getting ready to be fully aware of what you are about to face out on the road.

Part of that, for me, is realising the relative risks of motorcycling and using my brain/experience to minimise these risks.

[ElCoyote]

There is no requirement under NZ road rules to keep left,unless it is a passing lane BUT THERE FUCKING SHOULD BE

I have emerged from my underground bunker complete with white flag and iodine tablets expecting to see the landscape smoking, oblitereted and cratered. Well done guys and guyesses.

Just a wee addemdum though, it is an offence to "FAIL TO KEEP AS NEAR LEFT AS PRACTICABLE" This can be mitigated on a motorway by saying you were overtaking. It just took you from Market Rd to Drury to do so. Perhaps the consequences of exceeding 100kph has many people confused and/or scared. If they listen to the mantra of the LTsA often enough maybe so.

Courtesy would say to me to pull left when able and allow those who wish to travel faster to clear your space and then if the need is still there pop back out.

Serioulsy, what moves traffic more effectively: 3 lanes, full to capacity all moving at the same speed or, 3 lanes with the traffic in each moving at the speed they are comfortable with. If that means cars on the outer lane moving at 110-120kph so be it, is it not better to let water find it's own level than have the faucet wound back on each lane so it is follow the leader with an associated increase in nose to tails.

Again, it is an offence to fail to keep as far left as practicable but this is negated by the lack of enforcement. Sorry must return to the bunker before the Gubbmint read this. I have enough food for 2 weeks don't worry about me.

[Fatjim]

Keeping left isn't a safety issue, but a consideration for others issue, this is outwieghed in a motorcycles case by safety, where sitting in the right hand of the left lane is the safest place to be NORMALLY.

[doc]

Im asking the question --what would happen if.........?
and its not the fact Im thinking of more the ATTITUDE

It's not the attitude it's a fact of life, you get on a bike and do something other than nana along on it . You have to accept the responsiblity you fall off it its your fault. You chose to ride a bike in the wet and you have to accept the consequences. What people can't understand is those consequences can involve serious injuries just from a blow to the head. You don't have to look messy, to be unable to operate your playstation effectively ever again.