Safety and race-field size

[Clivoris]

Eliminate 600 from the SB class, OR at least eliminate enough 600 bikes, to allow all sb to try and Qualify

I think prioritising places for those not cross entered and leaving the rest to fight for the left overs would achieve this. The grid placings would still be decided by laptimes to keep things safest.

Guess this groth is good for the sport though, try to be positive about the growth

I also noted there is a TZ125 entered in the Derik Hill class? Should that be in there?

Yep, our supplementary regs allow this.

if you increase the field sizes, you are just delaying the problem rather than fixing it

You may be right but it would make a big difference to the 5 extra racers that get to compete. If all goes well and the growth continues we may be able to have full fields without cross-entry.

Cut and dry really isn't it?
either enforce the 115% rule or the first past the post rule.
Being as its a club series--ie grass roots stuff then id say first past the post--ie fastest 35 bikes.
Would reducing the classes you can enter on any one bike help?
In other words given that feilds are indeed huge why not enforce a one bike /one class rule?

I don't think it is that cut and dried, and it is starting to look like doing something about cross-entries might address some of the problems. For me, the fact that it is club-racing, increases the importance of giving people an opportunity to have a go.

I think for sure that in lets say F1 that all F1 bikes get priority to the grid and the 600 riders get the rest of the spots but i as long as the grid positions for the 35 riders is still determined by lap times

The main reason i cross enter is to get more riding, if they cut down on classes made no cross entering and run longer races that would sort the problem

They cant really change it now though cause what would happen if 35 sbk riders turned up all the 600 riders would lose there decent positions in the points series

In the current situation I don't think any of the high placed 600 riders would miss out.

In many ways this is the best situation that the sport could possibly be in.
How to manage too many people wanting to do it? Great!!

In the UK for example at BemCee and MRO meetings (which are almost now the VMCC comparison) there is no such thing as cross entering (at least in the main part). As a competitor you decide what you want to ride, select the appropriate class and stick with it. The US is the same.
This invariably means that you get one or two races per weekend. And you must qualify. If you don't, the only place you are going is into the stands to watch, end of story. You enter knowing that is the case. If you don't meet the standard, you need to go somewhere else to practice until you can meet the standard.

So, I agree with the suggestion that PRIMARY entrants into a class get priority over cross-entered classes where classes are oversubscribed.

My answers to this are three fold:
1) If you can ride more than one class then I believe that you are not riding hard enough, or are superfit. Are you there to race and race properly, or is it really just a glorified trackday for you? Do you really give 101% in every lap? If not, are you really racing, or just practicing each lap? And this applies to EVERYONE, not just the front runners. Why are you there? Think about that.

2) We have too many classes. This means that the meetings become totally time poor and we are left with 6 lap races. Whatever! 6 laps?? It is not long enough to really test anyone but the best first lap riders.

3) Two day meetings. I know this is the most difficult, if not impossible part of it, but that is how Bemcee and MRO are run in the UK and it works for them, why not for us? Yes, there are many reasons why not, but it is a possible solution at some time in the future.

Another part of the issue is the tacit agreement that VMCC run under F1 and F2 rules, rather than Superbike and Sports Production (Supersport). The former was done to allow all the 'special' bikes out there a place to compete, the latter very clearly legislates the types of machines that can be run. Actually 600cc bikes are probably not legal for Formula 1 anyway, but traditionally there have been insufficient Superbikes to make that class viable, so 600's and other bikes (250GP)have been allowed in. If VMCC adopted the MNZ class structures then there could be no confusion. But then where would all the others go? There are now perhaps enough Superbikes to make this a viable consideration.

Good to have the historical context Steve. As the series gets bigger there will be some hard decisions made alright.

Hey Clive,good question,but the answer should be the fastest 35 bikes,no arguement
At least if the riders decide to move up from the Vic Club meetings & go to the nationals,they wont be disapointed,as the rules will be the same,you have to qualify
It is a sad fact that some people will miss out,they either go to another class,or even better go faster next time & qualify
If you start swapping & changing the rules,expections will also change,so you will get the"You did it for so & so,why not me"
I keep thinking back to the PC world we now live in where,kids at school there are no winners & losers,they dont pass or fail exams,its bull shit,harden up,this is life & there will be disapointment!!

Good points Baz. It's exactly the kind of thing that Delboy reinforced to me when I'd get all soft-hearted at meetings. It's harder work but I think it should be possible to retain the competitive nature of racing and give people space to develop skills in the class they prioritise racing in.

If you don't get into a cross entered class you get your $10 back ?
(lucky I'm still in clubman's :-)

Err..No. Not worth the hassle. You pays your money and takes your chances.
Thanks for the ideas and keep them coming.

[White trash]

Reverse Grid Races!!!! :d

[montsta56]

What About cracking down on bikes in post classics that are not eligable for instance 1991 VFR's an 1990-1991 ZXR's 400's that seem free to run??

[Toast]

I think prioritising places for those not cross entered and leaving the rest to fight for the left overs would achieve this. The grid placings would still be decided by laptimes to keep things safest.

I don't think that this would have much of an effect, at least not right away. I don't think that any of the 18 Superbike riders would fail to qualify. If they did though, they should probably be in Clubmans anyway.

Fair enough though, F1 bikes should get priority in F1 over cross entering 600s, 250s, etc. If the idea is to give everyone a go though, fill Clubmans up first, especially as it's no longer a championship class.

As for grid sizes, I would think that the fact they're 6 lap races would mean that it's less important. The ones at the back, assuming the 115% rule is applied, aren't going to get in the way of anyone. True that more bikes on the track means more likelihood of crashes, but I don't think that it exponentially increases past 35 bikes. Adding 5 or 10 more bikes won't mean that there's more stuffed in to the same width of corner at one time, just that the train is a bit longer.

I would have no problem with being restricted to one class. I only entered F2 on my pro twin for shits and giggles and to show up some of the 600's.

Some of those for whom it's a 1000km+ round trip might care a little more though. Track time is important to me, and if I couldn't double up I might not turn up. Not that this would be a huge loss to the club

Club's call though.

[Shaun P]

If 600's are stopped from going into F1 it would make the class more desireable and get more popular increasing numbers.

Why not make a feature or teams race with 1 race per event for the fastest riders on any bike? Then it wouldnt only favour f2. Like Paeroa King of streets etc grid positions of race lap times - that would give the quick guys in whatever class more race time if they choose. Not an original idea, but one that im sure would be popular and time efficient.

[Sparky Bills]

It would seem to make sense that where someone is cross-entered into an oversubscribed class, that those for whom it is their primary or only class, get priority. What would competitors think of a situation where all those only entered into F1 qualify as a matter of course (assuming they are within the 115%) with the rest of the field being made up of the fastest cross-entries?


^^^This makes the most sence to me.^^^

if you increase the field sizes, you are just delaying the problem rather than fixing it

My thoughts too.
Why should someone miss out cause another rider has crossed entered.
600 stay in F2, 650 and 400 stay in F3/Pro Twin and so on.

Maybe when numbers thin out a bit then look at cross enteries again. But with the numbers we have these days, it just cant be done.

[Sparky Bills]

Just keep in mind...
This series is club racing. If people cant race at these events, how would they ever get fast enough to race anywhere??

[driftn]

My thoughts too.
Why should someone miss out cause another rider has crossed entered.
600 stay in F2, 650 and 400 stay in F3/Pro Twin and so on.

Maybe when numbers thin out a bit then look at cross enteries again. But with the numbers we have these days, it just cant be done.

I concurr.

[White trash]

Why not make a feature or teams race with 1 race per event for the fastest riders on any bike? Then it wouldnt only favour f2. Like Paeroa King of streets etc grid positions of race lap times - that would give the quick guys in whatever class more race time if they choose. Not an original idea, but one that im sure would be popular and time efficient.

That's actually a friggen good idea Shaun, good thinking. That'd be cool.

From a safety point of view, the 600s entered in F1 aren't actually an issue. Look at the fall rate from Round I last month. I'd hazard a guess that F1/F2 had the least amount of crashers of all classes.

[lostinflyz]

as someone just starting out if i showed up for a race and got told i wasn't in the top 35 and couldnt race in my class (be it f1, 2 or 3 or whatever) i doubt id show back up for your meetings.

Its fairly key to remember that these are club meetings and the only way to get faster is to go racing. No one wants to be told you have to go racing clubmans if you dont want to either.

In terms of solutions is there any reason that each rider can't nominate a single class as there primary and then nominate secondary classes so that the tracks always full. You are garanteed a spot in your primary class and that way can go racing where u belong. secondary classes filled as Vmcc sees fit be it fastest or first in the door.

[Tony.OK]

as someone just starting out if i showed up for a race and got told i wasn't in the top 35 and couldnt race in my class (be it f1, 2 or 3 or whatever) i doubt id show back up for your meetings.

Its fairly key to remember that these are club meetings and the only way to get faster is to go racing. No one wants to be told you have to go racing clubmans if you dont want to either.

The problem is though that how many do you allow on the track just because you want to race,if you have read your entry info you'll already know what to expect regarding cutoffs.
Its my 1st season too and I checked last years times to see if I could have a go in F1 without embaressing myself,or getting in the way,but was preparing to enter clubmans if I had too.
Its always gonna be a sticky topic but sometimes ppl have to be real with their abilities.

[roadracingoldfart]

The last time i commented on this subject i had my ass chewed by people so im gonna sit and watch what develops.

I agree for the record that something has to be ironed out to make it fair and safe for all concerned.

Paul.

[lostinflyz]

i agree with you TOny.OK, you do have to be in the field to play but the field is pretty spread quite often. but to be bumped outta your field by guys cross entering seems dumb. I know a few guys on older (early 00's) litre bikes that only hold it with guys on newer 600's. It would be kinda dumb if they showed up and got kicked cause they can't afford to replace a bike every few seasons. This may well not be happening but it will eventually. the same case can be applied to all classes too.

[CHOPPA]

Reverse Grid Races!!!! :d

Im sure your kidding but that would be fun!

[White trash]

I know a few guys on older (early 00's) litre bikes that only hold it with guys on newer 600's. It would be kinda dumb if they showed up and got kicked cause they can't afford to replace a bike every few seasons.

With all due respect (and good on ya for getting involved) in 1991 Aaron Slight was lapping Manfeild in 1.07 on a ZXR750 with around 140hp. Don't tell me a 01 GSXR1000 with modern suspension and 160 hp aint up for those lap times. If your mates are getting roosted by blokes on 600s riding those bikes, it aint because the bike's outdated.

That being said, Club events are for Club racers, first and formost. We need to remember that. The club racers should NEVER be turned away, I'm just not sure how to make it easier.

Perhaps a fastest cutoff. Those that run under 1.10 go home. Ya HEAR that Craig!!!!