So who's the terrorist again?

[svr]

So funny to hear of Dubya lambasting the Russians for their affray with Georgia -"Invading a sovereign country, massive overuse of force, attacking civilians, trying to push for regime change, ignoring the UN, etc"

Wonder where Putin got the ideas from?

Not so funny when you consider all the dead innocents, of course.
There was an interesting doco (admitedly `one-sided' i.e. critical) on last night re the complicit manner in which the US media covers war. Its not just Bush - every administration since Vietnam has been given a free ride by incompetent US `journalism'.
Bush says things like above because he can get away with it.

[Winston001]

So funny to hear of Dubya lambasting the Russians for their affray with Georgia -"Invading a sovereign country, massive overuse of force, attacking civilians, trying to push for regime change, ignoring the UN, etc"

Wonder where Putin got the ideas from?

Nice one.

Of course nobody - including Russia really made a fuss when Iraq was invaded. There was some posturing in the UN particularly by Arab states which was to be expected but even they didn't like Sadaam.

As for Georgia, I think Russia have the right of it but bloody sad people get killed. Georgia gambled that Russia would look away when they attacked in Ossetia. Bad call. Putin has been looking for an excuse to put Russia back on the world stage as a military power.

[Winston001]

Great, onto Iran next then I suppose, got to get those rewards eh
Here's a question for you, when would it not be ok to invade another country?

So what benefits to America or NZ are being reaped from the invasion? While you're examining the effect American 'control' of Iraq has had on oil prices, you might want to look for correlations in this graph: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:O...edium_Term.jpg

Oil prices - the graph displays the drop in value of the $US over ten years, not a rise in oil prices. The same graph against gold would be relatively flat, and not as steep against the Euro. Its just that oil is traded in $US which makes us think it has risen in price.

To be fair, it has risen in real terms but that is because we (the planet) use more and more of the stuff every day. McJim and I did our bit this afternoon.

When is it not ok to invade? When a country is stable, peaceful, observes the rule of law, protects it's citizens from arbitrary injustice, etc....which happens to be most Western nations - a small minority.

Arguably you could make a case for invading the majority of nations on earth.

No I don't think it is Ok for dictators to rule nations while people suffer and starve. It isn't ok for armed bands to control areas of countries. I'm fully of the view that we need an international police force and the UN peacekeepers are slowly evolving into that.

[Winston001]

Thanks for the anwers (Sanx, RT) but I remain unconvinced. Didn't GB give the US tax cuts? Can anyone show that their overall tax take has inceased as a consequence. (I honestly don't know where to look for such figures myself)

Failing that, presumably this truth will be revealed across the Tasman shortly as the Aussie Govt starts raking all that extra tax from their recent tax cuts.

.

Excellent question and by golly......I don't know.

So far as I am aware, social democracv economics is a debate around the range of taxation from 15c/$ to 40c/$. Yes there are much higher marginal rates for top incomes, but the overall percentage is in that range. Not sure what NZ is - 27%?

In other words taxation at some level is accepted everywhere - except the Gulf States where it isn't needed. Government needs money to provide services.

So then it becomes a battle of how much do you take out of citizens pockets? What services are important? Too much tax and people are discouraged. Too little and government can't provide for the sick and the weak.

Where it gets complicated is when government funds rap teams for overseas trips, operations for sex-changes, etc etc.... Personally I'm for less government, lower taxes, and a social safety net. In truth I think most Kiwis think the same.

[ambler]

Oil prices - the graph displays the drop in value of the $US over ten years, not a rise in oil prices. The same graph against gold would be relatively flat, and not as steep against the Euro. Its just that oil is traded in $US which makes us think it has risen in price.

True enough, but this is a mere technicality when no-one is paid wages in gold. If we were actually paid in something that has real value then we wouldn't be complaining as much about gas prices. You're also correct that the price would have risen in real terms anyway, but I think my point about the invasion not bearing any significant 'rewards' still stands.

When is it not ok to invade? When a country is stable, peaceful, observes the rule of law, protects it's citizens from arbitrary injustice, etc....which happens to be most Western nations - a small minority.

That was actually kind of a trick question, it is never ok to invade. Retaliation and defense are fair grounds to declare war, but if you ever have the luxury of deciding whether to make war of your own volition or not, you are always in the wrong for making it.
And who decides whether a country is stable enough, or being just enough to its citizens? Its neighboring countries? Some other country on the other side of the world with bigger guns? Ultimately a country is run by its citizens, it's their prerogative to set things straight. Unfortunately that's almost always easier said than done, but that doesn't give other countries any excuse to step in.

Arguably you could make a case for invading the majority of nations on earth.

And that is exactly the problem with your reasoning.

I'm fully of the view that we need an international police force and the UN peacekeepers are slowly evolving into that.

Be careful what you wish for

[Winston001]

.....it is never ok to invade. Retaliation and defense are fair grounds to declare war, but if you ever have the luxury of deciding whether to make war of your own volition or not, you are always in the wrong for making it.
And who decides whether a country is stable enough, or being just enough to its citizens? Its neighboring countries? Some other country on the other side of the world with bigger guns? Ultimately a country is run by its citizens, it's their prerogative to set things straight. Unfortunately that's almost always easier said than done, but that doesn't give other countries any excuse to step in.

Good arguments, interesting debate. My response:


Auschwitz

Cambodia (under Pol Pot)

Rwanda

Uganda (Idi Amin)

.............

[MisterD]

Georgia gambled that Russia would look away when they attacked in Ossetia. Bad call. Putin has been looking for an excuse to put Russia back on the world stage as a military power.

Actually, I think you'll find that Russian back separatists goaded Georgia into action by attacking civilians - precisely the pretext Putin had engineered.

Georgia might have thought they'd get more back up from the West, but Russia has Europe by the short and curlies because of their dependence on Russian oil.

I would have thought it might be a good opportunity to really test out those Typhoons and F-22's...but that's why I'll never be a politician

[Street Gerbil]

Good arguments, interesting debate. My response:


Auschwitz

Cambodia (under Pol Pot)

Rwanda

Uganda (Idi Amin)

Serbia/Croatia/Kosovo/........

Except Serbia/Croatia/Kosovo. In Balkans US has clearly picked the wrong side to fight for.

[pete376403]

Hear Condi today talking about Georgia and how the Russians better play nicely or else.
Little wonder the Russians are getting upset at US, their latest trick is planting missiles in Poland and Czechoslovakia.
Wasn't all that long ago that the US took the world to the brink of nuclear war for the Russians doing precisely the same thing, in Cuba.
US politicians = short memories

[Robert Taylor]

Hear Condi today talking about Georgia and how the Russians better play nicely or else.
Little wonder the Russians are getting upset at US, their latest trick is planting missiles in Poland and Czechoslovakia.
Wasn't all that long ago that the US took the world to the brink of nuclear war for the Russians doing precisely the same thing, in Cuba.
US politicians = short memories

Maybe, but Id rather be in bed with Uncle Sam than Ivan, any day. 20th century Russian history is a hell of a lot dirtier than 20th century US history. Im all for letting the Yanks bring their warships here and I also havent forgotten that they stopped the Japs reaching our shores and the genocide that would have followed.
Uncle Sam isnt perfect but we need them more than they need us. Personally, Im hoping for a McCain victory, at least he has got some substance.

[Winston001]

Hear Condi today talking about Georgia and how the Russians better play nicely or else.
Little wonder the Russians are getting upset at US, their latest trick is planting missiles in Poland and Czechoslovakia.
Wasn't all that long ago that the US took the world to the brink of nuclear war for the Russians doing precisely the same thing, in Cuba.

Mmmm yes but not as big a deal as it sounds. Its the political ramifications rather then the missiles which are the problem. And don't forget - Americans don't - JFK won the stare-down with Khrushchev.

The US had/has missiles and bases in Turkey and West Germany for many years, right on Russia's front door. Which incidentally made the Cuban Crisis a bit one-sided.

There is a huge radar installation going into Czechoslovakia and blank missiles in Poland - no warheads. These are also anti-ballistic = defensive missiles, not Minuteman ICBM MRIVs.

What the problem is really, is the loss of face and hurt to Russian dignity seeing former puppet states going over to the US. That is painful for them.

It will all calm down - European politicians are ordering boxes of valium as we speak. No way they or their people want a stoush with Russia. But Russia is back on the world stage and that is really what they want. Respect....and a little fear. Just like Nato and the USA.

[Winston001]

Georgia might have thought they'd get more back up from the West, but Russia has Europe by the short and curlies because of their dependence on Russian oil.

Now that is correct and a very interesting point. Russian companies own and control nearly all of the oil and gas lines into Europe. That includes pipelines from Libya.

So the risk to Europe from Russia is economic and vastly greater than the odds of a war. The Russians don't need a war, in fact it would be stupid, when they can make a fortune using good old capitalism.

Damn geopolitics can be ironic.

[alanzs]

Maybe, but Id rather be in bed with Uncle Sam than Ivan, any day. 20th century Russian history is a hell of a lot dirtier than 20th century US history. Im all for letting the Yanks bring their warships here and I also havent forgotten that they stopped the Japs reaching our shores and the genocide that would have followed.
Uncle Sam isnt perfect but we need them more than they need us. Personally, Im hoping for a McCain victory, at least he has got some substance.

+1. It will be an interesting election. McCain has hired the nastiest (but incredibly effective) group of spin doctors to demolish Obama. The next few months will be very, very interesting.

[SPman]

. Im all for letting the Yanks bring their warships here and I also havent forgotten that they stopped the Japs reaching our shores and the genocide that would have followed.
Uncle Sam isnt perfect but we need them more than they need us. Personally, Im hoping for a McCain victory, at least he has got some substance.

Yes the USA did help stop the Japs from reaching our shores, but, that was 65 yrs ago and things change! It shouldn't become a cure all for all the bullshit the USA has perpetrated since then!
The USA doesn't need us - period! Unless there is some advantage in it for them. "We need them more than they need us" - sounds a bit like an abused wifes reason for staying with a violent husband!
McCain victory - Obama victory......I don't think much will substantially change - just 40% of the US population voting for their preferred rich-guy-in-charge - the bulk of the populace will still be rooted! - but, by God, they'll be staunch patriots as they bend over to get shafted!

[mstriumph]

.........all the bullshit the USA has perpetrated since then!.............

think MacDonalds .........