Cunt Key

[ManDownUnder]

That's not the definition I use for lying. Where I come from a lie is the act of being deliberately untruthful.

He stood up said "I was wrong", opened for questions, appeared on National TV in the absence of Clark and Winnie so he'd get full attention of the interview at a time when Clark and Winnie are ducking for cover every chance they get!

The bastard - AND he took a substantial paycut so he could have a conflict of interest.

Or - he didn't remember all the detail of a small part of his portfolio and tried to appease a reporter when asked something out of the blue.

SR - I hope this is a troll.

[ManDownUnder]

Just to add fuel to this fire - a major problem the more advanced life forms face is that we deal in concepts unfamiliar (therefore "dodgy" or "wrong") to the less advanced life forms, so conveying a message to the less educated is never going to be successful - especially in a soundbite.

Sadly the majority of votes comes from the latter group.

[Skyryder]

Yes, he did trade in Transrail shares when he shouldn't have. Yes, he got caught out. But when confronted with the facts, he admitted it. End of story.

Labour and NZ first, when confronted with dodgy practices, have denied, them, blamed someone else, or changed the law to make what they did legal after the fact.

Key may have done wrong, but compared to Labour he comes across as a saint.

I’ve covered much of this argument in earlier posts and at the risk of repetition: yes Key was caught out, but his admission implies no honesty or integrity on his part. His admission was based solely to reduce political damage as the facts were indisputable.

You claim that Key’s transgressions on this matter are saint like in comparison to Labour and NZ First. As I consider you one of the more intelligent posters here on KB I’ll spend some time on this in an effort to reject this fallacy.

There is no doubt that what you call dodgy practices are that when seen from the public perspective. We the public base both our ethics and integrity from the perspective in which we live. We form our opinions either right or wrong from this environment. Politicians and that’s all politicians do not have the same luxury that we have. Much of their posturing and ethics are based on ‘political considerations.’ I for one do not think for one minute that Clarke would have positioned herself as she has with NZ First should she have been in opposition, no more than Hide would have complained to the speaker should Key have been in the position that Peters now finds himself in. Clarke’s dodgy practices have been tempered with political considerations. Considerations that we the public do not have to contend with. We make our judgments on our political ideology. A few go deeper and take into account the political considerations that political decisions are based on.

Key’s crime, for want of a better word was carried out on a personal level and not a political one. That’s the dividing difference between the two issues NZ First (donation) or in Clarks case many.

I’ve covered Peters actions in other posts and this is a NZ First issue and only a Labour by one association so will not go off on any tangents with this other than to say Peters was found guilty on a the basis of ‘probability’ only, not fact, and this again divides the two issues in respect of Labour/NZ First practices and Key’s where culpability exists on documents and Keys verbal admissions. Probability is not an issue here as it is with Peters but fact is in respect to Key’s.

These are the three issues that I find the most distasteful and suggest a man lacking in both moral and ethical behavior.

1 Key’s hyprocasy on slagging Clarke and Labour for their silence on their knowledge of Glen’s donation while at the same time keeping quiet on the number of shares that he held in Tranz Rail.

2 Actively trading with a transport company while Nationals spokesman for Transport.

3 Blaming others for ‘not’ asking how many shares that he held in Tranz Rail when his word was taken by the general public as truth.

I find 3 the most despicable of all. It’s one thing to remain silent in the House but to lie to the general public in the course of a TV interview is not the action of a saint and he raises himself no higher by admitting his guilt when confronted with his lie.

His guilt was admitted soly for the reason so as to reduce his ‘public’ sentence This is no different from same admission from the dock; sentence reduction. Saint??

I don’t think so.





Skyryder

[rodimus]

Call him whatever you like, John Key still gets my vote.

NZ Politics is very simple.

Vote John Key & vote democracy.

Otherwise, Vote for Red Helen.

[RiderInBlack]

Call him whatever you like, John Key still gets my vote.

NZ Politics is very simple.

Vote John Key & vote democracy.

Otherwise, Vote for Red Helen.

So ya really believe that God people are soo gullible and naive.

[rodimus]

Correction - The people of New Zealand are actually - So misinformed.

It is the US members of congress that refer to Helen as "Red Helen".

Why do you think Hiliary Clintons joke four months ago was: "If a nuclear holocaust happened tomorrow, only two things would survive. Cockroaches & Helen Clark".

[rodimus]

For anyone that understands politics, they'll understand that the scrapping of the Electoral finance act and the referendum for the reverting to "first past the post" is vital to democracy. That is the National stance.

The complete opposite to the Labour value system and their self suited policies brought into law by methods that bypass the peoples voice process.
Both the Anti Smacking law and the Electoral Finance Bill were passed by Labour when the people they are voted to represent, heavily opposed them.

[Hitcher]

God people are soo gullible and naive.

That is exactly Rodimus' point.

[Winston001]

Our representatives are actually the Politicians.
The mud slinging is coming from the media. How often do we hear that the economy is in trouble?
Latest published terms of trade are the best in Thirty Four years! That's the reality.
The thing with emigration to Australia is that it can be viewed as beneficial to both countries. Raises the average IQ of both.

In terms of watching and assessing the politicians, we rely on the independant media. If they ask the right questions and focus on serious issues, we become well informed.

Instead journalists are taught to "beat up" stories, find a salacious edge, any hint of scandal true or not, and keep following it. Canny politicians like Helen Clark play the media like a violin by feeding them tid bits of nonsense "allegations" which usefully distracts attention away from real issues of government.

Yes our terms of trade are the best they have been since 1974. Long time between drinks. Why didn't this happen in 2003 and continue every quarter since than - because that is when our economy boomed.

Instead we reach almost a balance of trade, just as an oil crisis hits, and a world economic crisis on top of that. Fonterra have just announced decreased payouts. Sadly its downhill again for NZ for a while.

[SPman]

Yes he did.
Yes he had.
But then he is a Politician, that's what they do for a living
Don't know which I find funnier:

• A Politician saying another Politician can't be trusted because they have been CAUGHT at a lie.
• People getting defensive about their Politician, when it is obvious that they have done wrong and have lied.
• Or that some people think that their Politician is truthful and doesn't lie (well not as much as the Politician they don't like).

Think about it people. How many Politicians would have got ya vote if they really told ya the truth about what they are going ta do once they are in power. There is always something unpopular that needs ta be done to run a Country. SO they have to be good liers to get in. They'll promise ya Roses ta get in and once they are in ya get the Thorns. All we get ta choose is which Lier we have.

You must spread more rep, etc etc....

They're all shysters - except guys like Rod Donald and he kicked the bucket - probably in despair!

Key will get in, aided by the Maori party, (screams of red neck outrage), who will keep the Nats very slightly honest until the next election when we can go through the whole process again.....

Oh joy!

[RiderInBlack]

referendum for the reverting to "first past the post" is vital to democracy.

OK asking the "people" if they want to go to a more un-Democratic is democratic Don't get me wrong. MMP is hard to deal with, BUT (and it is a BIG BUT) it is a lot more representative of the "People" than FPP, which saw a Party with a minority get in because they had more Seats. I would not think any Party wanting to go back to a voting system that is not representative of the Majority of the voters as being for "Democracy".
I am definity not for going back to FPP dark ages.

[Hitcher]

MMP is hard to deal with, BUT (and it is a BIG BUT) it is a lot more representative of the "People" than FPP, which saw a Party with a minority get in because they had more Seats. I would not think any Party wanting to go back to a voting system that is not representative of the Majority of the voters as being for "Democracy".

Balderdash. If an election were to be held today, and the various parties won votes proportional to how they are currently performing in the opinion polls, then it is entirely possible that Labour could broker a coalition that would let them remain in Government, despite having won fewer votes than National. Please tell me how that is any different to what sometimes happened under FPP when "minority" Governments were elected?

At least under FPP a party was elected with a mandate to govern based on its pre-election manifesto. Under MMP any pre-election manifesto is immediately up for negotiation as part of coalition talks that "the people" have little knowledge of. Indeed Governments can now be elected that nobody actually voted for. How is that "democratic" or representative of "the people"?

While you're at it, I'd also like an explanation as to how MMP is more "representative of the people"? With the exception of the Greens, all other political "parties" are disgruntled members of either National or Labour who have buggered off to form a Me-Too party. And, in the case of the Greens, who decides who represents Green voters in Parliament? "The people"? Bugger off. It's the Party that determines who goes on its list. What say do "the people" get in that?

[Winston001]

At least under FPP a party was elected with a mandate to govern based on its pre-election manifesto. Under MMP any pre-election manifesto is immediately up for negotiation ......

While you're at it, I'd also like an explanation as to how MMP is more "representative of the people"? With the exception of the Greens, all other political "parties" are disgruntled members of either National or Labour who have buggered off to form a Me-Too party. And, in the case of the Greens, who decides who represents Green voters in Parliament? "The people"? Bugger off. It's the Party that determines who goes on its list. What say do "the people" get in that?

I wasn't particularly convinced FPP was bad but I can live with proportional representation. MMP is not the right option but it was chosen because the electorate could grasp the concept.

Single Transferable Vote - STV - http://www.id-performance.com/obj14/obj14_Right.jpg is IMHO the best method. It looks complicated so it probably won't be adopted but gives the fairest result.

The problem with FPP is a minority party can have wide support but never enter Parliament. MMP etc allows entry and coalition allows power. Even not in coalition, a minor party still has the benefit of a public platform to raise issues from. Look at the milage Rodney Hide and Peter Sharples are able to get.

[Hitcher]

MMP is not the right option but it was chosen because the electorate could grasp the concept.

Not the New Zealand electorate, particularly those people (and there are some because I've met them) who hate Labour but like the Greens...

[Skyryder]

You must spread more rep, etc etc....

They're all shysters - except guys like Rod Donald and he kicked the bucket - probably in despair!

Jeez you got a short memory. Donald used the Alliance to get himself and the Greens into Parliment then promptly left. Without Anderton's political skills in putting together the Alliance the Greens would still turning the compost heap.

Skyryder