Which is the greater evil

[ManDownUnder]

Hmm. My intention was to address your query re: it being a 'womans body' etc. ...don't go running away with the idea that I'm particularly pro abortion either, per se.

Yeah - I got that and thanks. I must admit the discomfort side of things is an angle I hadn't thought about although it still doesn't curry any favour with me.

Don't really want to go right into it, (haven't time right now), but if abortion is illegal it won't stop people doing it, they'll just mutilate themselves because they're desparate. Friend of my mum's nearly died of a botched abortion when they were teenagers (ended up sterile), and dad had to assist in trying to save the life of a woman who'd had a go- she died. Having heard these stories within my close family, I have huge reservations about making it illegal, just for that reason alone.

I know, and a quandry I have is dealing with those situations. I have elected to go 100% pro life simply because I haven't found any interim argument that stacks up against the 100% certain taking of a life.

In the case you mention - it was a risky choice made that went bad. Yes it was a crime, but ... I'll stop there - I really don't want to inflame the argument, just let you see my point of view.

Likewise the issue of an "unwanted" child - I've met and spoken to a number of people that have been told they are unwanted - by their parents, repeatedly to their face. Their scarring must me incredible and if I can do anything to help them I will. I'm yet to hear any of them wish they hadn't been born, but then there is no doubt a higher proportion of them that have taken their own lives later - so it's a tough one.

I'm really not too sure about late abortions, though. Once it's baby shaped- bleeeee! But that's just me...

Understood.
MDU

[scracha]

Likewise the issue of an "unwanted" child - I've met and spoken to a number of people that have been told they are unwanted - by their parents, repeatedly to their face. Their scarring must me incredible and if I can do anything to help them I will. I'm yet to hear any of them wish they hadn't been born, but then there is no doubt a higher proportion of them that have taken their own lives later - so it's a tough one.

"oh but they'd have had a fabulous life if only their parents had sent them for adoption".

18,000 abortions performed in NZ in 2004
Median age for abortions 24.7 year olds
Children under 1 year old account for < 10% of adoption applications
< 1K adoption applications in NZ in 2004 [*1]

Conclusion. Most unwanted children never get adopted.
Conclusion. Most pro-lifers don't want to adopt other children.
Conclusion. Abortion is hardly just a teenage issue.

[*1] Hell, there was only a sniff over 5000 successful adoptions in the whole of England and Wales that year

[kickingzebra]

That is a societal argument again.
Teaching personal responsibility will fix this from several angles.
Asides from which, have you seen how much bull shit a couple has to go through in order to adopt a child?

It is a huge, and expensive process, and I don't doubt many parents who cannot afford the time or money to become adoptive parents, would still be very keen given a chance.

Also, personal responsibility is directly linked to a community type spirit, and altruism.

Hence, I believe, were the world to follow the idea I am repeating, abortion would be less of an issue, and adoption would be more highly rated. The numbers would meet up somewhere favourable for the living.

Oh, and I was born early enough that a late second trimester abortion could have been legally done on me.
Quite glad to be alive and taking responsibility for my own children thankyou very much!

[Ixion]

That which greatly reassures me is that we live in a society where people can debate evil in the context of abortion and dogfighting.

That says to me that few in our world have any real experience of true evil.

That is a good thing , and makes me happy.

May you all live out your lives having no closer aquaintance to true evil than abortion ot dogfights.

I mean nothing derogatory to anyone in that statement. There are people in the world who have to grapplewith that which really is evil.I hope we in this country never have to.

(Now, Dover on a motorcycle - oh yes, that makes the blood run cold. But fortunately, it is not something that is of long duration ? So long as there are ditches? )

[ManDownUnder]

"oh but they'd have had a fabulous life if only their parents had sent them for adoption".

18,000 abortions performed in NZ in 2004
Median age for abortions 24.7 year olds
Children under 1 year old account for < 10% of adoption applications
< 1K adoption applications in NZ in 2004 [*1]

Conclusion. Most unwanted children never get adopted.
Conclusion. Most pro-lifers don't want to adopt other children.
Conclusion. Abortion is hardly just a teenage issue.

[*1] Hell, there was only a sniff over 5000 successful adoptions in the whole of England and Wales that year

That's a big statement you make on my behalf... my point is that they would have had a life, and yes - if we had a society that supported adoption as an acceptable way of dealing with unplanned pregnancies then the chances are good.

Actually... they are pretty good anyway. As the brother of an adopted sibling I can tell you I'm bloody glad my parents chose to adopt, and the natural parents chose to adopt out. We are all a hell of a lot richer because of it.

As for your conclusions... lets take a wee look.
1) Most unwated kids don't get adopted.
Agreed - but please don't confuse mathematical ratios with conclusions. The simple ratio you're quoting (<1k adoptions vs 18000 abortions) can lead to a number of conclusions.

You simply summarised the ratio.

2) Most prolifers don't want to adopt unwanted children. Interesting one that. Care to back it up? Please don't tell me you derived that from your summary of research.

What about pro choice campaigners - and how do the ratios differ. Make sure you focus on those that have a specific interest in adoption as well as a general population comparison (i.e. those that can't have kids in the pro life camp vs those that can't have kids in the pro choice camp)

What conclusions can be drawn from that comparison?

3) Abortion is hardly a teenage issue
Never said it was, although a rate of 26 abortions per thousan 15 - 19 year olds tells me it is still a significant issue - they're simply not the age groups most frequently having abortions. Perhaps they're not as sexually active?

There are a number of possible conclusions to be drawn on that one too... but I don't think we have enough information in this thread to really make any conclusive/informed ones.

4) You missed the possible conclusion of abortion becoming a more acceptable alternative to other forms of contraception - dealing with the pregnancy instead of preventing it.

The number of abortions done in NZ from 1979 through 2004 (see here) tends to back that up on the face of it. The number of abortions per 1,000 head of population has increased every year within the study period except two.

The ratio of abortions to live births (on that same page) backs that conclusion up too

There is also the significant issue of the number of multiple abortions that were performed - i.e. the number of women that were having an abortion, but not for the first time (6,515 in 2004). That's 1 in 3 abortions done that year.

[Lou Girardin]

Nice try - my response to that leads to an argument of the ages that will only end up in us arguing eternally, or agreeing to disagree.

How 'bout we cut to the chase and agree to disagree?

Okey Dokely.

[scracha]

and yes - if we had a society that supported adoption as an acceptable way of dealing with unplanned pregnancies then the chances are good.

But we don't so what's the point in that statement?

>Actually... they are pretty good anyway. As the brother of an adopted
>sibling I can tell you I'm bloody glad my parents chose to adopt, and the
>natural parents chose to adopt out. We are all a hell of a lot richer because
>of it.

I'm not disagreeing with your individual circumstances or experiences (my personal experiences differer significantly from yours on this topic). I'd still disagree that "the chances are good" for most adoptees (is that the right word for children put up for adoption?). From the figures it seems that only the lucky few get adopted.

As for your conclusions... lets take a wee look.
1) Most unwated kids don't get adopted.
Agreed - but please don't confuse mathematical ratios with conclusions. The simple ratio you're quoting (<1k adoptions vs 18000 abortions) can lead to a number of conclusions.
You simply summarised the ratio.

And gave the obvious conclusion. You can make statistics say anything but there's not much grey area in these figures.

2) Most prolifers don't want to adopt unwanted children. Interesting one that. Care to back it up? Please don't tell me you derived that from your summary of research.

Yes, I did. 4 million kiwis. < 1 thousand adoptions. If you want to be really pedantic than perhaps I should have written, "most kiwi's, pro-lifers or otherwise don't adopt unwanted children".

What about pro choice campaigners - and how do the ratios differ. Make sure

I never said the ratios were different did I?

3) Abortion is hardly a teenage issue
Never said it was, although a rate of 26 abortions per thousan 15 - 19 year

You didn't, but a few other posters have.

4) You missed the possible conclusion of abortion becoming a more acceptable alternative to other forms of contraception - dealing with the pregnancy instead of preventing it.

The number of abortions done in NZ from 1979 through 2004 (see here) tends to back that up on the face of it. The number of abortions per 1,000 head of population has increased every year within the study period except two.

Yeah, so abortion is becoming a more acceptable and accessable option. My own opinion is that I'd rather they got rid of the unwanted foetus than give birth to an unwanted child. That opinion is also obviously shared by a lot of other peeps otherwise abortion would be illegal in this country.

In a nice magical world there'd be a nice family ready to adopt every unwanted baby, the baby would grow up in a loving supportive environment and become a "normal" member of society, but that's not reality.

[The Pastor]

I have a different stance on abortion: I'm against abortion, but for killing babies. That way everyone loses, and I win. I'm neither pro choice, nor pro life; I'm pro you-shutting-the-hell-up. The only way I'd be "pro choice" is if it meant I could choose which babies I could abort, and only then if I could lift the age restriction to 80. I was at this mall the other day watching some shitty documentary when I came out of the theater and saw old people dancing to country music in the courtyard. I couldn't remember the last time I saw a group of people begging this hard to be aborted.

[Mom]

I have a different stance on abortion: I'm against abortion, but for killing babies. That way everyone loses, and I win. I'm neither pro choice, nor pro life; I'm pro you-shutting-the-hell-up. The only way I'd be "pro choice" is if it meant I could choose which babies I could abort, and only then if I could lift the age restriction to 80. I was at this mall the other day watching some shitty documentary when I came out of the theater and saw old people dancing to country music in the courtyard. I couldn't remember the last time I saw a group of people begging this hard to be aborted.

You used the search function didn't you? Next time I see you I will do some modern dancing to the Buzcocks to take the vision of old people dancing to country music out of your minds eye

[ManDownUnder]

I have a different stance on abortion: I'm against abortion, but for killing babies. That way everyone loses, and I win. I'm neither pro choice, nor pro life; I'm pro you-shutting-the-hell-up. The only way I'd be "pro choice" is if it meant I could choose which babies I could abort, and only then if I could lift the age restriction to 80. I was at this mall the other day watching some shitty documentary when I came out of the theater and saw old people dancing to country music in the courtyard. I couldn't remember the last time I saw a group of people begging this hard to be aborted.

you need to find someone that cares as well - perhaps as a first step...

[Nagash]

you need to find someone that cares as well - perhaps as a first step...

Looking at the date, after that, would also help.

[The Pastor]

you used the search function didn't you? Next time i see you i will do some modern dancing to the buzcocks to take the vision of old people dancing to country music out of your minds eye

well its more like shuffling than dancing - dancing requires fluid energetic movement

[SARGE]

You used the search function didn't you? Next time I see you I will do some modern dancing to the Buzcocks to take the vision of old people dancing to country music out of your minds eye

yea.. i'll bring my Ramones and Plasmatics mix tapes and we can pogo!!!

[Mom]

yea.. I'll bring my ramones and plasmatics mix tapes and we can pogo!!!

woo hoo!!!

[SARGE]

woo hoo!!!

better yet .. the Helloween CD and i'll break out my spiked armbands and steelcaps and REALLY show the young'un a good time ...