True Production Racing series

[Mishy]

True Bro

Rockin Gimp ! whadya know jack ?

[Robert Taylor]

So pretty much everyone is saying the same thing?

• There are a limited number of riders who are either incredibly wealthy or want to move onto professional racing (and if they're lucky both).
• The majority of riders do it for fun.
• Pretty much every rider still wants to race competitively but to do so is unnecessarily expensive
• Most riders agree there should be one or two "elite" formula classes where anything goes.
• There should be a better and faster pathway to professional riding for the limited number of riders who are young enough, talented enough and have enough drive.

My tuppenceworth:

• There's a lot of riders who would prefer to be racing in a relatively inexpensive 600 class where up and coming riders can still fiddle with suspension instead of the one "essentially SV650" pro twins class.
• Shaun's production 600 class fits the above bill. Less development costs, less tyre & suspension costs etc. As a start, having the "production 600" class running simultaneously with the F2 makes a lot of sense.
• F3 is a mess at the moment and would be as well being ditched. There's no money in it and there's little interest in it. Manufacturers haven't developed small engined bikes for years. To be competitive, you need a highly tuned & expensive bored out hand grenade 450, modified Sv650 or some weird bastardised 3 cylinder 600. The majority of the bikes in the class at club level are 15 year old 400's so why not just have formula 400 (power limit and minimum weight)? It works, it's a level playing field and it's the most popular form of racing across the ditch.
• If F2 were dropped then surely F1 would become more "elite". More sponsorship money, better crowds, better riders and guys like Dr Taylor and Mishy would be kept even busier. I don't think there's enough money at the moment for F1 AND F2 and Shaun's "production" class could lead to the death of F2. This may be no bad thing.
• This leaves
  F1
  F2 / Production 600
  Pro Twin / Formula 400
  125 GP
  Streetstock 150 / 250 ?
  
  

Business is slow and I've got waaaay to much time on my hands at the moment.

With a couple of exceptions much of what you have said is fair.

[Mishy]

So pretty much everyone is saying the same thing?

• There are a limited number of riders who are either incredibly wealthy or want to move onto professional racing (and if they're lucky both).
• The majority of riders do it for fun.
• Pretty much every rider still wants to race competitively but to do so is unnecessarily expensive
• Most riders agree there should be one or two "elite" formula classes where anything goes.
• There should be a better and faster pathway to professional riding for the limited number of riders who are young enough, talented enough and have enough drive.

My tuppenceworth:
[LIST][*]There's a lot of riders who would prefer to be racing in a relatively inexpensive 600 class where up and coming riders can still fiddle with suspension instead of the one "essentially SV650" pro twins class.[*]Shaun's production 600 class fits the above bill. Less development costs, less tyre & suspension costs etc. As a start, having the "production 600" class running simultaneously with the F2 makes a lot of sense.[*]F3 is a mess at the moment and would be as well being ditched. There's no money in it and there's little interest in it. Manufacturers haven't developed small engined bikes for years. To be competitive, you need a highly tuned & expensive bored out hand grenade 450, modified Sv650 or some weird bastardised 3 cylinder 600. The majority of the bikes in the class at club level are 15 year old 400's so why not just have formula 400 (power limit and minimum weight)? It works, it's a level playing field and it's the most popular form of racing across the ditch.[*]If F2 were dropped then surely F1 would become more "elite". More sponsorship money, better crowds, better riders and guys like Dr Taylor and Mishy would be kept even busier. I don't think there's enough money at the moment for F1 AND F2 and Shaun's "production" class could lead to the death of F2. This may be no bad thing.[*]This leaves
F1
F2 / Production 600
Pro Twin / Formula 400
125 GP
Streetstock 150 / 250 ?

I'm busy with just one rider ! ha ha !
But seriously, It's always been true that most of the field do it just for fun, and everybody has the right to choose the level they compete at for themselves. If you want cheap 600 racing, go ride a three year old standard bike in the class we have - nobody is saying you cant. Want to get a thrill out of whupping the guys with newer bikes and aftermarket suspension ? go for it ! What we shouldn't do is downgrade the 600SP class to allow "John Smith" think he can be competitive with the best riders out there just because the rules change - it wont happen.
With the pro Twins class running inside F3 it's possible that MNZ may view that as a test case for something similar in 600SP (cue Shaun ?), and that would certainly go with your ideas and Shaun's. It will be interesting to see how the Pro Twins class goes this year - if it's a real success compared to last year, then the formula may be applied to other classes, who knows.
I agree with you on making sure there is a pathway up to SBK for the talented ones, and my whole point so far has been that we have a good version of that at the moment in 600SP- lets not mess with that, other than to provide a lower step to start at
If there is a way of getting new blood into nationals, or old blood back, then It's worth doing. I think that's what MNZ are up to with Pro Twins - and you have to try things, right or wrong. I applaude them for at least acting

It's (in my opinion) still incorrect to blame the $5000 cost of fitting new state of the art aftermarket suspension alone on the high cost of racing a 600SP - it's a very small part of the toatal cost, and at least it's worth something after the season (or comes with a pre-raced bike for not a lot) which is more than I could say for the $10000 or more worth of tyres that are worthless after a National Season, and with good suspension you still have practice tyres for the next meeting.

Most classes at national level this year were reasonably well subscribed, and F3 is still where planty of guys go to do the cheapest racing. The big swing towards SV650's, as well as Ozzy's 3 cylinder bike in F3 has actually injected some life and interest into the class, and that's got to be healthy in my opinion !

[Robert Taylor]

First of all Robert...I could understand if you were upset by the use of my vocabulary if said four letter words were directed at you. They weren't...so you need to get over yourself. If you're offended by me saying "go faster than the next cunt" or whatever it was...you need to log on to www.godfearingdogooders.com.

'Sad'? I'll tell you what I think is 'Sad'. I think it's SAD that you have nothing else to say on this site other than 'stock suspension is no jolly good'. Oh I'm sure if I spent a week or more looking I could find a post or two of yours that doesn't say such...but I really can't be fucked.

Do I single out 'Ohlins'? Yep...because I've not found a 'White Power' or Showa' rep here that does nothing but promote their goods on any and every post regarding anything motorcycling. If I did...I'd tell them to give it a rest too.


And off topic? Well Robert...the thread is/WAS about 'true production racing was/is it not?

So are you not the one the keeps taking it off said subject??



Of course it's not a democracy...it's a fucking website! We say what we think...people either agree and say so...or don't and say so. There's no 'vote'.

And you shouldn't care that I (and others) wind you up. I sure as fuck don't.

Now then..."Current bikes"? Are you fucking (love that word) kidding me? "Current bikes" have suspension that is so much closer to power outputs than they ever were! Have you never ridden an H1...or a Z1? The power output was ten times better than the suspension and chassis. I owned a Z1RTC, and I know all about power vs chassis. We're all spoilt now. Modern sports motorcycles are better now than most of us are riders.

I think it's great that discerning riders want to improve the ride quality of their bikes by spending money with you...and I'll never argue that you don't give them that. I've said it before Robert, and I'll say it again. I've heard nothing but good reports about the work you do. You're obviously incredibly good at what you know and do. I'm not out to in anyway try and take work away from you...and from reading your posts...it sounds like you've got too much on your plate at any one time anyway.

And that's great. But why can't you leave a post about 'Production racing' alone?



Who's 'Mishy'?

I asked a reasonably simple question regarding the demise of 'production racing' Robert. It went something like this...name ONE road racer that's set the world on fire since we've not had a proper 'proddie class'. Gav (I think it was) at least answered with "Dom Jones'. You haven't...'Mishy' hasn't!

You all dance around the question with fancy replies...but you've got no answer!

And has the rest of the world moved on...I mean have they really?

Do they not have the Red Bull Rookies Cup? Is this not a ONE MAKE series to see what youngster can actually ride better than the next? Didn't James Toseland come from something like the Honda GB500 Cup or something? Don't the Poms have an R6 cup...then move the winner of that onto a Superbike?

Didn't Ben Bostrom win the AMA 883 Twinsport (one make again hate to say it) series?



'Institutionalised'? Yep...the thing is this...if you preach the sky is falling often enough, a certain percentage of the population will eventually believe you.

They may even do something about it.

The rest of us will trust our own judgment.

You dont give up do you? Check out Scrachas recent post, he got some very good points across without offensive language. As for expletives, I use exactly those words at time to time but still have enough personal restraint and respect for maintaining some form of standards to know where it is not appropriate to use them.
I simply dont believe that production racing in its purest sense is the holy grail of dramatically increasing grid numbers. It would have some effect yes but the cost issues are as much about getting to and from meetings, accomodation etc. And that ditch of water.
I know only too well the deficiencies of stock suspension, maybe thats possible because I work with it day in, day out. But I also believe that those who aspire to higher standards should not be victimised / despised. And sorry but that is highly evident in the demeanour of your posts. Again, full marks to Scracha for providing a balanced appraisal of the arguments.
Overexposure, well I guess I can blame some of my customers for that. And you wont find near anything from Showa and WP because on all fronts there is very little activity, albeit good products capable of running at the front with proper backup and infrastructure. I guess I should stop helping people because Ill get over-exposed????
I stand by my main salient points. It is SAD that you cannot gracefully accept what I have said without exploding a tirade of expletives ( disagreeing is fine ) I have submitted opposing arguments and Mishy has also raised some very relevant points. So be it.

[Robert Taylor]

[QUOTE=Crasherfromwayback;1818111]First of all Robert...I could understand if you were upset by the use of my vocabulary if said four letter words were directed at you. They weren't...so you need to get over yourself. If you're offended by me saying "go faster than the next cunt" or whatever it was...you need to log on to www.godfearingdogooders.com.

'Sad'? I'll tell you what I think is 'Sad'. I think it's SAD that you have nothing else to say on this site other than 'stock suspension is no jolly good'. Oh I'm sure if I spent a week or more looking I could find a post or two of yours that doesn't say such...but I really can't be fucked.

Do I single out 'Ohlins'? Yep...because I've not found a 'White Power' or Showa' rep here that does nothing but promote their goods on any and every post regarding anything motorcycling. If I did...I'd tell them to give it a rest too.


And off topic? Well Robert...the thread is/WAS about 'true production racing was/is it not?

So are you not the one the keeps taking it off said subject??



Of course it's not a democracy...it's a fucking website! We say what we think...people either agree and say so...or don't and say so. There's no 'vote'.

And you shouldn't care that I (and others) wind you up. I sure as fuck don't.

Now then..."Current bikes"? Are you fucking (love that word) kidding me? "Current bikes" have suspension that is so much closer to power outputs than they ever were! Have you never ridden an H1...or a Z1? The power output was ten times better than the suspension and chassis. I owned a Z1RTC, and I know all about power vs chassis. We're all spoilt now. Modern sports motorcycles are better now than most of us are riders.

I think it's great that discerning riders want to improve the ride quality of their bikes by spending money with you...and I'll never argue that you don't give them that. I've said it before Robert, and I'll say it again. I've heard nothing but good reports about the work you do. You're obviously incredibly good at what you know and do. I'm not out to in anyway try and take work away from you...and from reading your posts...it sounds like you've got too much on your plate at any one time anyway.

And that's great. But why can't you leave a post about 'Production racing' alone?




You dont give up do you? Check out Scrachas recent post, he got some very good points across without offensive language. As for expletives, I use exactly those words at time to time but still have enough personal restraint and respect for maintaining some form of standards to know where it is not appropriate to use them.
I simply dont believe that production racing in its purest sense is the holy grail of dramatically increasing grid numbers. It would have some effect yes but the cost issues are as much about getting to and from meetings, accomodation etc. And that ditch of water. The world is also more complex than in the 70s!
I know only too well the deficiencies of stock suspension, maybe thats possible because I work with it day in, day out. But I also believe that those who aspire to higher standards should not be victimised / despised. And sorry but that is highly evident in the demeanour of your posts. Again, full marks to Scracha for providing a balanced appraisal of the arguments.
Overexposure, well I guess I can blame some of my customers for that. And you wont find near anything from Showa and WP because on all fronts there is very little activity, albeit good products capable of running at the front with proper backup and infrastructure. I guess I should stop helping people because Ill get over-exposed????
I stand by my main salient points. It is SAD that you cannot gracefully accept what I have said without exploding a tirade of expletives ( disagreeing is fine ) I have submitted opposing arguments and Mishy has also raised some very relevant points. So be it. AND, I am just as entitled to comment about production racing as you are.

[vtec]

Mishy, why shouldn't "John Smith" have a fair chance at racing the top guys? Production 600's would kick arse.

Robert, we are not victimising you at all. You're getting a bit emotional. I felt like we've given you plenty of praise to keep your feelings in one piece. Also, why should Crasher give up when you don't?

How about this. Have a 600 production class, and supersport as it is, and let the riders decide which class they can afford to race in, get the most enjoyment from, and get the best bang for buck. Not only that, a winner from said class would be pretty damn fair winner. Sure there'll be differences between manufacturers, but I think that would be good motivation for manufacturers to build the best bike straight from the factory, currently i think this is a big part of their motivation for building such awesome bikes.

F3 is rooted as a stepping stone. SV650's ... well I just don't like them as has been said they are lazy lumps, and its opportunity to be a true production class has failed. 125 GP and 250GP bikes just don't get raced anymore for very good reasons.

A solution to all this would have been the manufacturers to produce decent 400's as of old like the ZXR and VFR etc. But they haven't. Damn that would be the ULTIMATE production race class. Tyres would last, power would be comparable between all the bikes, and comparatively safe racing at sub 250kph speeds.

[Ivan]

I dont like pulling off topic but I want to say something regard the comment on SV's ruining F3.

F3 class is great and aint ruined the thing is the manafacutrers dont make modern sports bike 400cc any more. You need a way of making the class carry onto the modern age or else it will become post classic with another name.

The SV isnt the miracle bike everyone talks about either I race one and yeah it pulls from corners alot faster than 400s but its top end aint much higher and Ive had 400s straight line past me, But the 400 is a far better bike at corerning.

The SV is not "Lazy" either yes you have alot of Torque but you have to be careful how far you push its buttons or else you will be highsided.

But I think Shaun owns the bikes owns the class he went through his hard work and time to organise this why cant he decideon what he wants.

[Crasherfromwayback]

You dont give up do you? Check out Scrachas recent post, he got some very good points across without offensive language. As for expletives, I use exactly those words at time to time but still have enough personal restraint and respect for maintaining some form of standards to know where it is not appropriate to use them.


I simply dont believe that production racing in its purest sense is the holy grail of dramatically increasing grid numbers. It would have some effect yes but the cost issues are as much about getting to and from meetings, accomodation etc. And that ditch of water.


I know only too well the deficiencies of stock suspension, maybe thats possible because I work with it day in, day out. But I also believe that those who aspire to higher standards should not be victimised / despised. And sorry but that is highly evident in the demeanour of your posts. Again, full marks to Scracha for providing a balanced appraisal of the arguments.

I stand by my main salient points. It is SAD that you cannot gracefully accept what I have said without exploding a tirade of expletives ( disagreeing is fine ) I have submitted opposing arguments and Mishy has also raised some very relevant points. So be it.

Ok Robert...this is the last time I'll ask you any questions, as it's blindingly obvious you hide behind drivel instead of taking the time to answer them.

My 'responses' here are in order going from the top. I've 'gapped' your 'responses' so you know which bit of your post I'm referring to....in what order.

Do I ever give up? No. I'm a stubborn fucker. I'm glad that being stubborn is part of my makeup. It's helped me achieve certain things that to this day I'm extremely proud of. 'Expletives'? You use them when you think the time is right or 'appropriate'? So do I. I'd never use such foul language around my mother...certain girlfriends I've had...or 95% of my customers. So what gives you the right to say when or where they're 'appropriate' on this site? It's a fucking 'biker' site FFS. Most 'bikers' I know use such words frequently.

Now...the 'Holy Grail' bit. If you realize that here in good old NZ half (if not most) of the problem for aspiring racers is travel and the bit of water that we must all cross, and the cost to do so...why on earth would we want to add to said cost by having to run expensive suspension etc to remain competitive?

Next...You know only too well the deficiencies of stock suspension? What...from a 'racers' point of view...or from an 'Ohlins' dealer point of view?
Can you ride a modern sportsbike past the limits of it's 'stock suspension' capability? I'll bet you can't!

Do I personally 'victimise' or 'despise' racers that have 'top line suspension'?

Where'd you get that idea Robert? As I've said repeatadly...I've raced proddie bikes and bikes with (funnily enough) Ohlins suspension. You see...I'd love nothing more than to see young NZ road racers reach greater hights...but making them have to have the most expensive equipment avail is hardly going to help the cause.

So now why don't you look back through my previous posts that include you, and see if instead of telling me what a potty mouth I have...if you can actually answer the other questions I've asked you without sounding like some purified offspring of Patricia Bartlet.

You need to get out more.

[gav]

When you guys talk about running Standard and Bog Stock 600's just how standard are they? If its as its off the shop floor, its going to be pretty damn expensive replacing OEM fairings and screens, exhausts, footpegs, clipons, etc isnt it? Standard gearing? standard brakepads? Fluids? Air filters etc?
And if you allow all the above you're pretty close to SP spec anyway except suspension aren't you?

[Mishy]

Mishy, why shouldn't "John Smith" have a fair chance at racing the top guys?

F3 is rooted as a stepping stone. SV650's ... well I just don't like them as has been said they are lazy lumps, and its opportunity to be a true production class has failed. 125 GP and 250GP bikes just don't get raced anymore for very good reasons.

Hey my point was that changing the rules in the belief that half the field are going to get up compete with the top guys is never going to work out that way. Everybody can race with the tops guys if they are that fast as it is, but there is a big difference in skill and natural ability that just won't change, even if you do try to "level the playing field" .
As far as the GP classes go, well 250 did fall over due to lack of support (I raced them and LOVED it, but you just can't have 3 bikes a meeting at that level) but 125 seems to be (currently) our biggest breeding ground for toung talent. Did you see any 125 racing here last year ? it was actually VERY good, well subscribed, and fastish to boot. Gotta keep that class !

[Mishy]

I dont like pulling off topic but I want to say something regard the comment on SV's ruining F3.

F3 class is great and aint ruined the thing is the manafacutrers dont make modern sports bike 400cc any more. You need a way of making the class carry onto the modern age or else it will become post classic with another name.

The SV isnt the miracle bike everyone talks about either I race one and yeah it pulls from corners alot faster than 400s but its top end aint much higher and Ive had 400s straight line past me, But the 400 is a far better bike at corerning.

The SV is not "Lazy" either yes you have alot of Torque but you have to be careful how far you push its buttons or else you will be highsided.

But I think Shaun owns the bikes owns the class he went through his hard work and time to organise this why cant he decideon what he wants.

Food for thought from the guy on the front line . . . . . . . . .
You should speak your mind more often Mr, It's worth hearing.

[puddytat]

The point to this dribble is, ALL of the above can be learned on a std production bike!!!!! Fuckin Cheap, no $3000 front fork kits, or $3000 shocks or $800 stearing dampers

Just saved near on $7000-00--- And there is ya full season running costs of a STD 600 Production bike, where many many many riders have learned there skill.


:

Thats my theory too

[Mishy]

When you guys talk about running Standard and Bog Stock 600's just how standard are they? If its as its off the shop floor, its going to be pretty damn expensive replacing OEM fairings and screens, exhausts, footpegs, clipons, etc isnt it? Standard gearing? standard brakepads? Fluids? Air filters etc?
And if you allow all the above you're pretty close to SP spec anyway except suspension aren't you?

Fine questions indeed ! and who would know but the rule makers ? I suspect that any proddy class would have to be allowed replica fairings as a common sense item, and gearing has been optional in such classes in the past, as well as brake pad material. I think I get your drift on this one, fairings plus a screen plus a spare set plus some other stuff does start to add up like any other class.
Perhaps it would be useful to consider an unfaired class as a proddy class ?

[scracha]

I dont like pulling off topic but I want to say something regard the comment on SV's ruining F3.

Who said that?

You need a way of making the class carry onto the modern age or else it will become post classic with another name.

Why carry on with F3? The big jap 4 aren't making 250cc two strokes or 400cc 4 strokes anymore. Odd aforementioned expensive 450 hand grenade excepted, the class has had only one competitive type of bike for the last few years. AFAIK you're in Pro Twins yourself so that says something doesn't it? If there's a shortage of time/money and it's a choice between having F3 or production 600 (or some other class that can inject more interest and rider development at reasonable cost) then I'd rather see the demise of F3 (even if there's one less class to shove my old 400 in). And yeah, there's large numbers in F3 but compared to other "formula" classes, there's a disproportionate number of riders who're doing F3 for fun and not seriously competing for top positions. Not that I'm against fun (hell, that's why I race) but it's supposed to be an "elite" formula class. Look at the bikes competing in a class and adjust the rules to encourage competitive racing and control costs. Getting other bikes like F800's, GSR600's, FZ6's or XJ6 diversions into F3 might revive interest.

As for ozzies bike, I'm impressed how he's worked around the rules but as I've explained in another thread, it'll end up no cheaper than F2 (brand new R4.5, power commander, full ohlins + more servicing as it's running on 3 cylinders).

400's in post classics..yeah fine. But I can't understand why there's a 600cc limit when 99% of the available pre 89 post classic junior bikes in NZ are the 400's (in other countries 600's were popular in 89 but not here) . Again, needless extra cost to be competitive. With certain limitations, a rolling "10 years and over" class or similar would be far more interesting. Again, not reinventing the wheel as it's done in other clubs abroad.

The SV isnt the miracle bike everyone talks about either I race one and yeah it pulls from corners a lot faster than 400s but its top end aint much higher and Ive had 400s straight line past me, But the 400 is a far better bike at corerning.

A sorted 400 may be better at cornering than the pro-twins spec SV perhaps, but not the F3 spec SV's a lot of peeps are running. As for top end....any 400 that's passing you on the straights is likely to be either very tuned, have a 45Kg rider or simply came out of the previous corner faster (no offence like). 55ish ponies versus 70ish.

But I think Shaun owns the bikes owns the class he went through his hard work and time to organise this why cant he decideon what he wants.

Not quite sure what you mean Ivan?

[Mishy]

ALL of the above can be learned on a std production bike!!!!! Fuckin Cheap, no $3000 front fork kits, or $3000 shocks or $800 stearing dampers
:

So, which flavour of bike are we talking about then ? hint hint . . . . .
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