True Production Racing series

[Robert Taylor]

Dom Jones has NOT raced for nealy 12 or more months DUE to things happening in the USA, and even Hayden Fitgerald got his arse handed to him in the UK last year, so please come up with a way to help bring the culture out Gav

Candidly, with Hayden it had quite a bit to do with that poxy Maxton suspension they made him race on. He was not happy with it at all.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Well the expletives were a little uncalled for. Unless Ive been dreaming for the last 10 years or so it seems odd that I recieve week upon week oem ''fully adjustable fork units'' that are anything but and are often maxed inwards.

Perhaps we shoUld say that about Suzuki as well. Yep, ridiculous over-emotional codswallop laced with expletives. SAD.

And singling Ohlins out, thats a bit uncalled for when there are a couple of other quality brands out there.
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Anyway this is off topic. This is not about tall poppy syndrome, its about asking Shaun when his proposal is happening

First of all Robert...I could understand if you were upset by the use of my vocabulary if said four letter words were directed at you. They weren't...so you need to get over yourself. If you're offended by me saying "go faster than the next cunt" or whatever it was...you need to log on to www.godfearingdogooders.com.

'Sad'? I'll tell you what I think is 'Sad'. I think it's SAD that you have nothing else to say on this site other than 'stock suspension is no jolly good'. Oh I'm sure if I spent a week or more looking I could find a post or two of yours that doesn't say such...but I really can't be fucked.

Do I single out 'Ohlins'? Yep...because I've not found a 'White Power' or Showa' rep here that does nothing but promote their goods on any and every post regarding anything motorcycling. If I did...I'd tell them to give it a rest too.

And off topic? Well Robert...the thread is/WAS about 'true production racing was/is it not?

So are you not the one the keeps taking it off said subject??

I thought this forum was a democracy and I have just as much right as anyone else to make positive and opposing comments in any thread.

Current bikes are in relative terms very poor racebikes because the engine power and chassis loads are ever more disproportionate to the capabilities of the suspension, which certainly hasnt advanced at the same pace. ( My whole point ) But we can agree to disagree. And in a further generalised reply it must be pointed out that we sell and modify many suspension units for road going bikes that never ever see a race track, because of the deficiencies of the oem gear.

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Of course it's not a democracy...it's a fucking website! We say what we think...people either agree and say so...or don't and say so. There's no 'vote'.

And you shouldn't care that I (and others) wind you up. I sure as fuck don't.

Now then..."Current bikes"? Are you fucking (love that word) kidding me? "Current bikes" have suspension that is so much closer to power outputs than they ever were! Have you never ridden an H1...or a Z1? The power output was ten times better than the suspension and chassis. I owned a Z1RTC, and I know all about power vs chassis. We're all spoilt now. Modern sports motorcycles are better now than most of us are riders.

I think it's great that discerning riders want to improve the ride quality of their bikes by spending money with you...and I'll never argue that you don't give them that. I've said it before Robert, and I'll say it again. I've heard nothing but good reports about the work you do. You're obviously incredibly good at what you know and do. I'm not out to in anyway try and take work away from you...and from reading your posts...it sounds like you've got too much on your plate at any one time anyway.

And that's great. But why can't you leave a post about 'Production racing' alone?

Yes Mishy did have a lot to say and it made perfect sense. As he has an intimate understanding of tyres and how they interact with his own higher level of suspension set up knowledge I believe he is more qualified to comment with sound answers than some of the (frankly ) emotional and less than informed posts on this thread.

To infer that true production racing is what we need to produce world class racers is frankly a very big call.

The rest of the world has moved on and we have to be in tune with that.
With the greatest respect to Shauns proposal a true production series would allow every brand to compete within a series i.e inclusion for every preferred flavour.

Who's 'Mishy'?

I asked a reasonably simple question regarding the demise of 'production racing' Robert. It went something like this...name ONE road racer that's set the world on fire since we've not had a proper 'proddie class'. Gav (I think it was) at least answered with "Dom Jones'. You haven't...'Mishy' hasn't!

You all dance around the question with fancy replies...but you've got no answer!

And has the rest of the world moved on...I mean have they really?

Do they not have the Red Bull Rookies Cup? Is this not a ONE MAKE series to see what youngster can actually ride better than the next? Didn't James Toseland come from something like the Honda GB500 Cup or something? Don't the Poms have an R6 cup...then move the winner of that onto a Superbike?

Didn't Ben Bostrom win the AMA 883 Twinsport (one make again hate to say it) series?

Actually, many many road racers want the best possible setup, it would be naive to think that everyone wants institutionalised mediocrity.
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'Institutionalised'? Yep...the thing is this...if you preach the sky is falling often enough, a certain percentage of the population will eventually believe you.

They may even do something about it.

The rest of us will trust our own judgment.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Check out my most recent posts in a parrallell thread subject. There exists a case for both lower cost and more expensive class formula. Yes of course people want to have fun racing motorcycles, and yet more fun. Funny how people keep asking me for set up help?
And the point is missed that there are many in all forms of motorsport who want to be the best and to understand the engineering, you dont want to cater for them?

Answer:

Bog stock 600s. (running in with supersport)
One set of tyres per meeting.

We can cater for both people who want and can afford the best (and still have option to use quality after market gear) and those who want to race on a budget.

Essentially Protwins and F3. But I feel they really dropped the ball in F3 on a few subjects. One being the suspension mods and cam timing.

[jrandom]

And the point is missed that there are many in all forms of motorsport who want to be the best and to understand the engineering, you dont want to cater for them?

No problem with that. How about we run the open-slather formula classes alongside the proddie ones and just wait and see which take off, eh?

[Kickaha]

New class.

Bog stock 600s. (running in with supersport)

One set of tyres per meeting.

Wasn't the original tyre rule for the 600 class "one set per meeting" ?
(around 2001-02)

[vtec]

There's tonnes of classes for you and mishy to ply your trades and sell your wares, in fact currently the only class that you can't is streetstock (250 4's and 150 2's). There needs to be more stock racing above the level of streetstock racing for people to prove their abilities to themselves and potential sponsors so that they can then afford to step up and have some idea of how they will go in a modified class.

I repeat it is not a safety issue. Thousands of races have been run in the past on bikes with crap tyres and crap suspension, crashing is entirely up to the rider pushing his equipment too far.

You seem to take it personally that we would be happy racing without your fantastic and wonderful suspension. All I can say to that is ... don't. We are not out to hurt your feelings, you are good but there is only so much Robert Taylor to go around, and when I was racing nationals and just bought a $300 spring off you, you had your hands full with all the top guys like stroud and smith and shirriffs and the aussie guys. I don't blame you at all, but until there are 10 Robert Taylors running around helping all the racers there will not be a level playing field in terms of suspension setup. I don't like to play with suspension cause I'm worried I'll make changes that will hurt my performance, and I hate having to worry about it when I'm out on the track, second guessing my suspension setup changes. Cause I do worry because I don't have an expert helping me.

I've found riding a bike with crap suspension namely a CBR250RR with next to no adjustability I could still get my knee on the deck and have my elbow touching my knee around Philip Island and Winton. In fact my first ever time on Winton and I won $200 prize money and all 3 of my 250 4 stroke races, and the bike was bog stock. All my competitors had very well modified bikes. I'll attach a pic of the bike. It was not a death trap because I found it's limit without crashing. Same goes for 600's yes they are more powerful, but the brakes are the same and they have to try to corner at similar speeds. Only difference is being on the power out of the corners, and the speed at which you start braking, and a bit of difference in speed through the highspeed corners. Although modern 600's have suspension a hundred times better than the CBR250RR and they weigh similar. I repeat it is not a safety issue.

And Jay, you've ridden RG150's around Manfeild and done some great laptimes, they had crap tyres, was it a safety issue? If you had crashed wouldn't it have been because you were pushing it too far?

From what I've seen people often blame their equipment when they've just been pushing as hard as someone with better equipment and they've come a cropper, if you wanted to stop that and decrease costs, put them all on even and fair equipment... ie. stock suspension. I repeat there is really only room for 1 or 2 modified classes in NZ, currently we only have 1 unmodified class and it's not available at Nationals. Gay!

[Crasherfromwayback]

I've found riding a bike with crap suspension namely a CBR250RR with next to no adjustability I could still get my knee on the deck and have my elbow touching my knee around Philip Island and Winton. In fact my first ever time on Winton and I won $200 prize money and all 3 of my 250 4 stroke races, and the bike was bog stock. All my competitors had very well modified bikes. I'll attach a pic of the bike.

And Jay, you've ridden RG150's around Manfeild and done some great laptimes, they had crap tyres, was it a safety issue? If you had crashed wouldn't it have been because you were pushing it too far?

Way to go mate!!!

And do you mean 'Jay' that raced the Museum Hotel ZX6? I could be outta line here...but I think if that's the 'Jay'...he had all sorts of problems with handling 'issues'. Does anyone know if his (if that's the 'J' in question) ZX6 was running stock suspension??? Bet it wasn't.

[vtec]

Yeah we're talking about the same Jay, doesn't matter how good your suspension is, at some point on any equipment you are going to find "problems" ie. the limit. hahaha.

He did do some insane times on his ZX6 when it did have standard suspension though.

Oh yeah, and first time on Philip Island I came second for the round and got the $100 prize money. The other guy had a much quicker bike and I nearly beat him in the last race, I was seeing 200kph (indicated) drafting behind him

[jrandom]

And do you mean 'Jay' that raced the Museum Hotel ZX6?

He does.

AKA JayRacer37 round these parts.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Yeah we're talking about the same Jay,
He did do some insane times on his ZX6 when it did have standard suspension though.

Thought as much. Jay comes from good stock...his father is fucking handy on a bike!

He does.

AKA JayRacer37 round these parts.

I know him...was just checking it was one and the same 'Jay'!

[jrandom]

I know him...was just checking it was one and the same 'Jay'!

I wouldn't be surprised if he had an evil twin, of course. Explains the 'two bikes' approach to racing.

[Mishy]

I know Bruce Ainstey well. Managed to beat him to the NZ 250TT title in '91' racing 250 'proddie'. He's a good friend of mine. Bruce has never 'whined like a stuck pig'...and never will. Not his style.

I worked for Bruce when he had the Tas Suzuki out here. . . . . . . . . . .

[Mishy]

O'K, so we don't have any international riders at the moment, but why would that be ? from what I understand Dom Jones found it real hard in the states on a limited budget, Hayden had a hard time in England, and a common factor would probably be money, or lack of it. The cost of buying into a ride in Europe is huge - guys like Seaton and Gareth Jones have sold their soules to ride those Superstock bikes, and i don't think that what they grew up racing has much to do with whether they can afford to get on a good bike at that level. It's a reality that the higher you want to acheive, the more it'll cost.

I have been told that it's also not uncommon for talented young European riders to struggle when they get a descent bike because they have no experience at setting one up, which is due to a lot of time on stock bikes. You could well argue ( if your main point of interest is getting NZ'ers on the international stage) that having the experience of working with technology is very usefel for our young guys wanting to go places, like a good stepping stone between stock and SBK perhaps.

[puddytat]

Stock standard 6hundies I reckon, then I reckon I'd have a chance....

[gammaguy]

haha remember test rides up the summit road after a bit of tuning in my garage?great days....

truth is all of us racers,ex and current,do/did it because we get a kick out of it.lets not lose sight of that,and if that means racing boring and not "purist"production bikes to keep the sponsors/distributors/joe public happy,so be it.

its either that or we are all going to be entertaining ourselves and precious few others this summer.i doubt that is what many of us want because it is the start of a downward spiral of the sport we love,which if i am not mistaken has already started judging by the number of aging ex racers like me hanging around the traps not being replaced by up and coming young racers.