My idea of Production 600 rules

[brads]

[QUOTE=Sketchy_Racer


Hey Mishy,

Thanks, and I agree with you, that the current class works very well. As I have mentioned else where, maybe with a class like what I propose running alongside the current SP600 rules could be adjusted to make the current SP bikes more internationally competitive. As far as I know, there are to many restrictions on our bikes to turn them easily into international race bikes.





Cheers all,

-Glen[/QUOTE]

Wont that make the gap between the bikes on track to big? Riders are missing the qualifying cut off now.Would have to be a seperate race all together.
Ever priced up what it costs to turn them into "international bikes"?

[Sketchy_Racer]

Wont that make the gap between the bikes on track to big? Riders are missing the qualifying cut off now.Would have to be a seperate race all together.
Ever priced up what it costs to turn them into "international bikes"?

Would allowing more modifications make a really huge difference to the lap times of SP? I wouldn't think any more than 1 second? Otherwise the 600s will end up being faster than the superbikes!

I don't know how much different the international rules are, but by the sound of your post, it must be considerable.

I've just heard a couple of people mention the frustration of trying to take a NZ bike over seas to race. Apparently they just aren't competitive.

[Toast]

It may not level the feild hugely when it comes to riders attributes (both physical and Style) but it will certainly level the feild financially.

Major manufactures must surely factor in different weight riders and compensate for them with there suspension. They have to sell their bikes to all sorts of people after all.

I am well aware that this will not be the huge leveler that some believe it will be. I think it will be a financial leveler for sure.

-Glen

So let’s get this straight: The status quo is that those with more money have an advantage and unless you’ve got enough to buy the right kit, physics decrees that you don’t get a fair shot.

Yet you’ve just openly stated that those who are outside a certain set of physical parameters no longer get a fair shot under ‘production rules’, and that’s ok?

So we’ve gone from inequity based on financial means to favouring those with certain God-given physical attributes. So before, the poor pricks had to work 7 days a week to afford suspension services and tyres, now the solidly built guys have to train 7 days a week and sacrifice overall health to make their suspension work.

And this makes it ‘all about the racer’s skill’ and makes it 'fair' overall, how?

And I don’t agree that manufacturers magically make their bikes' handling equally appealing to all riders. The fact that the suspension on most of the bikes they sell will never be subjected to forces great enough to challenge it in a corner means that they don’t really have to give a toss; they just have to make sure the marketing is done well and they don’t develop a reputation for rubbish reliability.

Part of the point of this thread is that pro-twins aren't STOCK, and are (from what I have gleamed ) quite expensive. This class is not for people at the top, it is for people ON THEIR WAY to the top and those of us who aren't going anywhere to have racing that is fair, fun, safe AND affordable.

WE KNOW motor sport isn't cheap - this is one of the ways we are dealing with it.

What was Karl Morgan’s championship winning bike selling for? Listed at $12.5k if I recall rightly? Probably going to sell for less than that. Cheaper than a stock 600 and there are no new models that will enter the class this year. That’s cheaper and more competitive for more people in its class than what’s being proposed with this 600 production class.


Having said all of that, I like the idea of a production 600 class running along side the current 600SP class, but let’s not kid ourselves that it’s going to be fair and all about the racer’s skill. There will always be excuses, but the Craig Shirriffs, Andrew Strouds, Rossis, etc whose natural talents are well suited to the requirements of the sport, who had opportunities early on to develop their skills, and who have the determination to get where they have, are probably still going to rise to the top some way or another

[Sketchy_Racer]

So let’s get this straight: The status quo is that those with more money have an advantage and unless you’ve got enough to buy the right kit, physics decrees that you don’t get a fair shot.

Yet you’ve just openly stated that those who are outside a certain set of physical parameters no longer get a fair shot under ‘production rules’, and that’s ok?

So we’ve gone from inequity based on financial means to favouring those with certain God-given physical attributes. So before, the poor pricks had to work 7 days a week to afford suspension services and tyres, now the solidly built guys have to train 7 days a week and sacrifice overall health to make their suspension work.

And this makes it ‘all about the racer’s skill’ and makes it 'fair' overall, how?

And I don’t agree that manufacturers magically make their bikes' handling equally appealing to all riders. The fact that the suspension on most of the bikes they sell will never be subjected to forces great enough to challenge it in a corner means that they don’t really have to give a toss; they just have to make sure the marketing is done well and they don’t develop a reputation for rubbish reliability.

People with larger physical mass are going to suffer in ANY class they race in. After market suspension is good, but it can't hide that fact that some bugger weighs 120Kg on a bike!
The weight disadvantage will exist no matter what, and I feel that spring changes are enough to compensate for that. My other personal feeling is, If you're a heavy bugger maybe you aren't cut out to be a jockey?

Remember the goal of a class such as this is not only to try create a less financially based race class, but more importantly, make racing in NZ more appealing. A 40k out lay to have a competitive 600cc (before you even hit the track) race bike in NZ does NOT make it a appealing class to your average wage earning NZer.

Bikes like the SV you mentioned below aren't fun to ride(IMO). I don't know if you have ridden a SV but they are the same speed as a 125GP bike in a straight line, but have the mass of a 600SP bike. And at the end of the day, they are a commuter bike dressed up a little.

I believe that the current SP600 class is still very important and this is by no means a way to get rid of it, or dilute the class.

What was Karl Morgan’s championship winning bike selling for? Listed at $12.5k if I recall rightly? Probably going to sell for less than that. Cheaper than a stock 600 and there are no new models that will enter the class this year. That’s cheaper and more competitive for more people in its class than what’s being proposed with this 600 production class.


Having said all of that, I like the idea of a production 600 class running along side the current 600SP class, but let’s not kid ourselves that it’s going to be fair and all about the racer’s skill. There will always be excuses, but the Craig Shirriffs, Andrew Strouds, Rossis, etc whose natural talents are well suited to the requirements of the sport, who had opportunities early on to develop their skills, and who have the determination to get where they have, are probably still going to rise to the top some way or another

[vtec]

So let’s get this straight: The status quo is that those with more money have an advantage and unless you’ve got enough to buy the right kit, physics decrees that you don’t get a fair shot.

Yet you’ve just openly stated that those who are outside a certain set of physical parameters no longer get a fair shot under ‘production rules’, and that’s ok?

...

And I don’t agree that manufacturers magically make their bikes' handling equally appealing to all riders. The fact that the suspension on most of the bikes they sell will never be subjected to forces great enough to challenge it in a corner means that they don’t really have to give a toss; they just have to make sure the marketing is done well and they don’t develop a reputation for rubbish reliability.

What was Karl Morgan’s championship winning bike selling for? Listed at $12.5k if I recall rightly? Probably going to sell for less than that. Cheaper than a stock 600 and there are no new models that will enter the class this year. That’s cheaper and more competitive for more people in its class than what’s being proposed with this 600 production class.

Having said all of that, I like the idea of a production 600 class running along side the current 600SP class, but let’s not kid ourselves that it’s going to be fair and all about the racer’s skill. There will always be excuses, but the Craig Shirriffs, Andrew Strouds, Rossis, etc whose natural talents are well suited to the requirements of the sport, who had opportunities early on to develop their skills, and who have the determination to get where they have, are probably still going to rise to the top some way or another

To cowpoos, I weigh 72kg, would be well over 80kg with my gear on, I'm still fast on a soft as a sponge CBR250RR (been winning races and prize money in Australia on them). Also, if your bike is going into stoppies, you need to up the preload a bit, or maybe ease on the brakes a little slower, and find the braking limit point. Riding is all about feeling how the bike responds. I still feel like the 600's were built for BIGGER riders than me. Try not to be so hamfisted. Work out what the setup you're on is capable of.

And Toast, you've been working 2 jobs to support your racing addiction, and countless hours of repairs maintenance and setup. Your bike is far from competitive, it's really just a learning tool. Will you be buying Karls bike?

For me, I cycle everywhere I can, and I workout every second day. I'm trying to put on weight and strengthen up. I have trouble keeping muscle on, but I feel that I'm just about in the right condition to make an ideal rider. Everyone should exercise. Fat bastards should exercise more, or focus their exercise on weight loss or trimming down etc. When I was a long distance runner, I was running every day for at least an hour. Harden up. Everyone can exercise, not everyone can afford 3k suspension (on top of all the other costs) for a season. I can afford $6grand for a season though, just. But I feel irresponsible risking all this money, my gran gave me $1000 towards my racing, and I still feel guilty about it. And my parents spent many more thousands on me racing (mostly accommodation and repairs) than they ever did on my 3 other siblings. I feel so guilty. That is a part of the reason why I packed it in at the end of last year. I could not afford to crash my bike, I was in over my head, and swimming against the current. I'd say 90% of the potential out there never even gets a chance to prove themselves. So don't ever give me the bullcrap that the best always rise to the top against all obstacles. That's just not true. I'd say out of six billion people there's plenty with the exact same potential as valentino rossi who never got the chance to race motorsport. Or didn't start young enough, or the circumstances weren't right for.

I'm sure I heard a quote somewhere that the greatest talent remains forever undiscovered. Or something to that effect.

If you are worried about tyre wear, Shaun is running a control tyre that will no doubt provide enough lifetime to get you through a meeting. He's smarter than he looks, which is just aswell.

And to the person who asked why I thought I had the potential? Well because I would never have got a 600 if I didn't think I could be the best. Call it delusional self belief. Don't worry, I did get my doubts at times especially after the odd decent crash, or with the ex pulling the rug from under my feet at every possible opportunity. But if everything had gone my way I could have been the best. Just there were several hurdles I never jumped, mostly due to money in one of the poorest developed countries in the world.

Toast, not all of this rant is directed at you. You should definitely be a prime candidate for Shauns series, it's about time you put that CBR out to pasture mate.

I've definitely given more than my fair share of opinion, I'm out. Good luck peeps and have fun.

[Toast]

People with larger physical mass are going to suffer in ANY class they race in. After market suspension is good, but it can't hide that fact that some bugger weighs 120Kg on a bike!
The weight disadvantage will exist no matter what, and I feel that spring changes are enough to compensate for that. My other personal feeling is, If you're a heavy bugger maybe you aren't cut out to be a jockey?

Remember the goal of a class such as this is not only to try create a less financially based race class, but more importantly, make racing in NZ more appealing. A 40k out lay to have a competitive 600cc (before you even hit the track) race bike in NZ does NOT make it a appealing class to your average wage earning NZer.

Bikes like the SV you mentioned below aren't fun to ride(IMO). I don't know if you have ridden a SV but they are the same speed as a 125GP bike in a straight line, but have the mass of a 600SP bike. And at the end of the day, they are a commuter bike dressed up a little.

I believe that the current SP600 class is still very important and this is by no means a way to get rid of it, or dilute the class.

Spring changes are enough? Not according to the best suspension engineer in the country? Is he being biased? I don’t think so, but some others do and some don’t. Big boys like Paul Pav have won NZ titles and there have been bigger boned IoM winners, I believe. GP racers…nah.

$40k before you hit the track? $18k for an ex-Dave Cole bike that could win the championship in the right hands seems like a more reasonable estimate to me.

We could argue the finer points all day, but like the Irish dude somewhere on this forum said, it’s about time for action and for people to stick their money down. Then we will see just how appealing this new production 600 class is. Let’s hope that it boosts numbers on the grids, because a 600 class with 35 on the grid would be a great spectacle.

Personally, if there is a stock GSXR National Championship class run by MotoDynamix at the 2009-2010 Nationals that costs around $5k+/- to enter with tyres and bike supplied as has been indicated, then I’d almost certainly be in for it.

[Tony.OK]

Shit this is getting all to petty now.................ffs if you want to hire a bike then do it, if you don't then buy whatever you want to race on.
Telling people to excercise and harden up isn't going to help anyone, same time excercising could be spent on a second job to pay for "said" suspension.Each to their own.
Me.......I own a bike already,and I wouldn't spend 6k just to do the Winter series, but can see how that would appeal to someone that hasn't got one.

No one has really talked about crash repairs yet........what about the whole rear subframe arguement that the SV F3 boys have just been through? No aftermarket parts means very expensive replacement costs.

I wish all that get involved good luck, and hope Shaun gets all the support he deserves for going through with his plan.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Shit this is getting all to petty now.................ffs if you want to hire a bike then do it, if you don't then buy whatever you want to race on.
Telling people to excercise and harden up isn't going to help anyone, same time excercising could be spent on a second job to pay for "said" suspension.Each to their own.
Me.......I own a bike already,and I wouldn't spend 6k just to do the Winter series, but can see how that would appeal to someone that hasn't got one.

No one has really talked about crash repairs yet........what about the whole rear subframe arguement that the SV F3 boys have just been through? No aftermarket parts means very expensive replacement costs.

I wish all that get involved good luck, and hope Shaun gets all the support he deserves for going through with his plan.

I wouldn't call this petty. It's been quite a constructive online conversation (call it what you like) if you were to ask me.

It seems that people that can't afford all the gear love the idea and the people with the gear don't. Not surprising really.

Oh and this thread has nothing to do with Shauns bike hiring. This thread is about how I think NZ racing could benefit from a proddy 600 class, and how I think would be the successful way to do it.

[Tony.OK]

I wouldn't call this petty. It's been quite a constructive online conversation (call it what you like) if you were to ask me.

It seems that people that can't afford all the gear love the idea and the people with the gear don't. Not surprising really.

Oh and this thread has nothing to do with Shauns bike hiring. This thread is about how I think NZ racing could benefit from a proddy 600 class, and how I think would be the successful way to do it.

My bad.......I thought I was in one of the other threads.
I'm all for having more bums on bikes, how ever it needs to happen.

[discodan]

Why not just run the production 600s as a separate class and points as the pro twins are running in F3?

Heavy / rich guys can stick with the current class and the others can run stock bikes against each other.

I only got into racing because I had a bike that fitted with he pro twin rules so I could potentially run at the front.

[Toast]

And Toast, you've been working 2 jobs to support your racing addiction, and countless hours of repairs maintenance and setup. Your bike is far from competitive, it's really just a learning tool. Will you be buying Karls bike?

Toast, not all of this rant is directed at you. You should definitely be a prime candidate for Shauns series, it's about time you put that CBR out to pasture mate.

I've definitely given more than my fair share of opinion, I'm out. Good luck peeps and have fun.

Nah mate, not gonna buy Karl’s bike. Maybe Sketchy is right, SVs just aren’t that appealing and we are shallow bastards that want to have an IL4 tickling our balls at 15,000rpm and shoving us hard down the straights. Still, point remains, if you want to have a shot at winning a class, there is/was a bike for sale for $12k that will enable you to do it.

Yes, I worked like a dog in 3 jobs for 18 months for a number of reasons, racing (especially getting screwed on the purchase of a bike that had ‘potential’ in the same way that a state house in Otara does, spend a shit load and it’ll be quite nice) and past mistakes making up most of them.

My bike may not be competitive but I KNOW that I’m still the limiting factor. I’ve finally gotten around to fixing a few things, and I got down to a 1:38.5 within 3 sessions taking it easy at Taupo on the weekend just been with an excuse list a mile long. Neither wheel slipped the whole day… The bike clearly has HEAPS more to give once I attack the excuse list (for relatively few, if any $), so I don’t believe that I have the right to whinge. Once someone videos me riding it like Rossi and still not winning, then I will whinge

[Skunk]

How come every time someone mentions the cost of a top notch bike some start pointing out the cost to buy a top notch racers cast-off?
Apples with apples people - 2009 top class 600 with all the trick bits vs 2009 600 Production bike. Cost difference is?...

[cowpoos]

Ever decided to lose a few KGs.. if YOU were that committed to your racing then you would put in the hard yards and effort to drop the KGs? yes no?
Obviously some are naturally bigger than others, but if you feel to your to big to be competitive in this class, you're going to hit the same issue later on if you want to chase racing beyond NZ.

Between the time I started racing...till my last race I did...I was 15kgs lighter...and below the healthy weight range according to body mass index.

Besides that..you won't hit that same issuse really..because your allowed to can suspension components in most classes...its the status quo for a reason.
Heavier people have different ablilities on a bike compare to lighter people which levels the playing feild a bit...when suspension changes can be made to keep the bikes dynamic ride height more consistant. after you learn more about bike setup...which is a critical part of your learning as a racer to have any future in this sport long term..you will realise this.

To cowpoos, I weigh 72kg, would be well over 80kg with my gear on, I'm still fast on a soft as a sponge CBR250RR (been winning races and prize money in Australia on them). Also, if your bike is going into stoppies, you need to up the preload a bit, or maybe ease on the brakes a little slower, and find the braking limit point. Riding is all about feeling how the bike responds. I still feel like the 600's were built for BIGGER riders than me. Try not to be so hamfisted. Work out what the setup you're on is capable of.

the forces you get on a cbr250's suspension is fuck all of anything compared to something which make five times the power...you can't even be dumb enough to you that for a argument!! come on!!

and as for you coment on suspension...I ain't a fool in that deparment..and my example was the bike as it was before the springs were uprated...valving changed front and rear...the valving in the forks in the front is a major to stop brake dive...unfortunatly...the cartridges in the 810 are not the best and resisting brake dive...600's are not built for bigger rider than you...more likely lighter riders than your self. Japenesse test riders are not big people!!

and re: the control tyre comment...PM jayracer37...ask him what conti compound will last the whole winter series on a stock bike...he help develop them so he would know!!

People with larger physical mass are going to suffer in ANY class they race in. After market suspension is good, but it can't hide that fact that some bugger weighs 120Kg on a bike!
The weight disadvantage will exist no matter what, and I feel that spring changes are enough to compensate for that. My other personal feeling is, If you're a heavy bugger maybe you aren't cut out to be a jockey?

a difference of 10 kgs is big enough to make it a un fair playing feild!! and Nick cole blows your other theory out the window...with the help of aftermarket suspension...he's priddy fast!!

Ben spies isn't a small fella either...height and weight wise compared to his peers....is he slow???

I will be rude now Glenn....but you need look at the possibilities that your point of view may not be the best comprimise to having the fairest cheap series!!

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SKUNK...Protwins are cheap...they are very stock...I think your confussed with F3...

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and for all the robert taylor bashers...how about we develop a concept that has suspension mods that use only whitepower suspension...I doubt robert will give a crap...he would probally welcome the fact that he could spend some time on the weekends that most people take for granted with his family!! and Ray clee is great with suspension...so we could still recieve a high level product!!

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I would be interested in Ozzy's and JDracing...gixxerracers...comments to this thread. ad similar threads.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Between the time I started racing...till my last race I did...I was 15kgs lighter...and below the healthy weight range according to body mass index.

Are you kidding me? I didn't think you were that tall, just a bit bulk. How much did you weigh at you lowest?

and re: the control tyre comment...PM jayracer37...ask him what conti compound will last the whole winter series on a stock bike...he help develop them so he would know!!

I don't think any tyre would last a whole season? It should be a fresh tire (or a supersport take off) each round. Clearly you wont get as great tyre life with stock suspension (we can agree there!)

a difference of 10 kgs is big enough to make it a un fair playing feild!! and Nick cole blows your other theory out the window...with the help of aftermarket suspension...he's priddy fast!!

So with me being in at 62Kg and Jason at 72Kg, I will have a significant advantage to him? Don't think so.
Maybe the 100kg plus riders will suffer but again, if your that size you gotta ask if your in the right sport if you want to go somewhere with it.

Ben spies isn't a small fella either...height and weight wise compared to his peers....is he slow???

How big is he? Does he just look bigger because of the size of his competition? It could be a case of looking and Nicky Hayden vs Dani Pedrosa. Nicky isn't big, but looks HUGE next to Dani.

I will be rude now Glenn....but you need look at the possibilities that your point of view may not be the best comprimise to having the fairest cheap series!!

Not rude at all mate. I bought this up in hope of getting everyones opinions on the subject to really see what the advantages vs Disadvantages
I like to think I have a open view of everything, and you are right it won't be the fairest series, but I feel it will be a far more attractive series compared to the likes of pro twins and will also help open the door to the not so funded or determined riders which equals more bums on seats which is what we need in our sport before we can expect it to develop any further.

and for all the robert taylor bashers...how about we develop a concept that has suspension mods that use only whitepower suspension...I doubt robert will give a crap...he would probally welcome the fact that he could spend some time on the weekends that most people take for granted with his family!! and Ray clee is great with suspension...so we could still recieve a high level product!!

I'd like to point out that I have not once bashed Robert. I respect the man hugely not only for his immense knowledge but also for the amount of effort he clearly puts into this sport. Truth be told the sport would be well down the gutter without dedicated people like him.

I would be interested in Ozzy's and JDracing...gixxerracers...comments to this thread. ad similar threads.

So would I. It would be interesting to hear more professional inputs. (professional = more experience than someone like myself, 18yo with comparatively very very little experience.

Cheers,

-Glen

[koba]

only $3000 more for suspension.
Thats around than I spent on one season of racing.
Including the bike.

Streetstock is a cheap class, I dunno much about suspensions or tyres on bikes that have enough power to really work them but Glens idea sounds brilliant to me.

I'm currently not considering ever racing 600's. Fair or not has nothing to do with it, that ammount of $$ is simply out of my pricerange.
If it was cheaper and I could afford it I would love to have a bash at it.