Letter in Saturday's Harold - Police to target motorcyclists

[riffer]

Peer pressure has changed the way drink driving is perceived. The same approach could be taken towards reckless riding.

And an accident rate of zero? - (even though it is inconceivable to even hope for it). I think the publics perception would be very different.

We've got a long way to go before we even agree on what "reckless" actually means though.

You know, I read that ACC report that was posted last night. There was an interesting bit in there where they reckoned that exceeding the speed limit by 5 km/hr put you in as much risk as driving with an alcohol limit of 80mcg per 100 mls of blood.

And that our roads were designed back when the speed limit was 80 km/hr so it was reckless to attempt to exceed that speed now.

So, if that's ACC's definitions of reckless, we've got a long way to travel before we ever hit ANY common ground with TPTB.

[Ixion]

We've got a long way to go before we even agree on what "reckless" actually means though.

You know, I read that ACC report that was posted last night. There was an interesting bit in there where they reckoned that exceeding the speed limit by 5 km/hr put you in as much risk as driving with an alcohol limit of 80mcg per 100 mls of blood.

And that our roads were designed back when the speed limit was 80 km/hr so it was reckless to attempt to exceed that speed now.

So, if that's ACC's definitions of reckless, we've got a long way to travel before we ever hit ANY common ground with TPTB.

I cannot authoritatively comment on the 5kph worse than 80mcg thing, though it sounds total garbage.

However the "roads were designed for 80kph" I *can* authoritatively say is complete rubbish and deliberate disinformation.

The speed limit was only 80kph (50mph) for a very short period at the time of the great Petrol Crisis. Before that the speed ,limit was 90kph (55mph) and after it 100kph.

However most of the roads designed in the 50s and 60s were designed for speeds much higher than that. In that era there was an expectation (realised in the German Autobahn) that vehicle speeds would keep rising. Most of the main roads and motorways of the period were in fact designed for speeds of up to 100mph . That's MILES per hour not kilometres.

What is this report you mention? Does it have an author? I'll write to them and blow them up. And demand authority for their other claim

[Ixion]

I completely agree with you. That's why I would like to see scooter riders encouraged to wear the gear. ATGATT is an overkill in some circumstances so I also wouldn't want to see this being compulsory.

I am an heretic. I don't believe in the Magic Gear. Certainly protective wear is a good thing. It will help stop you suffering rash injuries in a minor spill , and may help cushion impact injuries. But it is limited to turning a nasty crash into a not quite so nasty one.

The Magic Gear will not stop your head being split open like a water melon. It will not stop your leg being ripped completely off. It will not stop you breaking your neck. It will not stop your aorta being ripped out of your heart when you impact a solid surface. It will not stop you being burned to death. It is unlikely to stop your femoral artery being severed so that you bleed to death in a few seconds. It will not stop you dying of internal bleeding after your liver and spleen are ruptured. Seen most of those. That's what happens in a crash. It will, in short , not make you invulnerable. Sorry. They lied to you. Oh , and by the way I have some bad news about Santa Claus , too.

Magic Gear seems to me to be very much the same sort of cocoon thinking of air bags and intrusion bars. "Oh, I'm going to crash, but it will be OK, the Magic Gear will protect me". No, it won't . Crash, and you die. That's the brutal reality of biking. And, for that matter, the Magic Gear of today isn't much better than what we had 40 years ago. More colourful, cooler, lighter, and less work to maintain. But you still die just as easily.

Oh, if the biker gods fancy you you may get away with it this time, and even the next. But sooner or later they'll get tired of you and piss on you. Then you die.

The ONLY way not to die is not to crash.

[Katman]

So, if that's ACC's definitions of reckless, we've got a long way to travel before we ever hit ANY common ground with TPTB.

And that's the problem - the powers that be aren't looking for "common ground". They're looking to change things by force.

[riffer]

What is this report you mention? Does it have an author? I'll write to them and blow them up. And demand authority for their other claim

It's called Down with Speed.

http://www.acc.co.nz/DIS_EXT_CSMP/gr.../wcm000021.pdf

A quote from the document:

They reported a previous study conducted
in Adelaide by McLean, Holubowycz, and Sandow
(1980, cited in Kloeden et al, 1997) that related the risk of
crash involvement to a driver’s blood alcohol concentration
(BAC)16. Kloeden et al concluded that quite small increases
in speed result in an increase in the relative risk of crash
involvement that is comparable to illegal blood alcohol levels.
A 5-kph increase in speed above 60 kph (in a 60-kph zone)
increases the risk of a casualty crash by roughly the same
amount as an increase in blood alcohol concentration from
0 to 50 mg/100 ml. The results are summarised in Table A1
and Figure A3 below. An example of comparable relative risk
is the risk of involvement in a casualty crash when travelling
at 70 kph in a 60-kph zone or when driving with a BAC of
80 mg/100 ml.

sorry, it appears my memory wasn't perfect. Still a bold call.

[candor]

ACC is worried about costly longterm injuries with the rising crash rate - not your lives. I heard it too re targetingh but caught no detail. This may help... it seems like Cops want to pass the bike buck to ACC with education push. Tho some targeting of bikers for intersection running seems on the cards.

REGIONAL TRANSPORT COMMITTEEReport of the Regional Transport Committee of the Waikato Regional Council held inthe Council Chambers, Environment Waikato (Waikato Regional Council) office, 1 Dec 2008

D Williams noted the sale of motorcycles has increased over 60% in thelast three years. In terms of minimising the risk of motorcyclists it isnecessary to look at the cause. Parking needs to be provided toencourage the continued use of motorcycles.The number ofmotorcycles on the road is very high. Motorcyclists are the statistic andnot the cause.The Police and other road safety partners target vulnerable road users and motorcyclists fall into that category.D Macpherson noted an issue for motorcycles is uneven road surfaces at road works.There is a need for education campaigns around intersections toensure the safety of motorcyclists.Campaigns are scheduled over the Christmas period targeting speedand alcohol. After Christmas there will be a campaign focussing onvulnerable road users, including motorcyclists and scooters.The road between Raglan and Pukekohe (ex SH22) is an issue for thePolice together with SH25 and SH25a around the Coromandel.It was noted that there are some very good motorcyclists out on theroads, however there are very poor motorcyclists.There are some other locally based programmes working to try andbring down road fatalities.A Sanson noted the Waikato District Council endorses the work thatRoad Safety personnel do.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.

Page 8
Report of Regional Transport Committee Meeting – 1 December 20088_____________________________________________ _____________________________________________There are increasing numbers of motorcycles and crashes in the regionparticularly in the Hauraki District and the Thames Coromandel District.Waikato had the highest cost of ACC claims nationally.There are increasing numbers of heavy motor vehicles and it is important to think about what effect the economic downturn will have on upward pressures on common offences. Should partner agencies reduce their education contribution, policewould be obligated to cover this function, reducing their own ability torespond to matters requiring enforcement.During discussion, questions and answers following the presentationthe Committee noted:L Tooman suggested that the Mayors, in conjunction with the Police,across the region could send letters to businesses advising them ofsome road safety initiatives they could have in place for their upcomingChristmas functions.A Catran noted signage is required for recreational motorcyclists in andaround the Coromandel Peninsula.RESOLVED THAT the report ‘Road Safety – A Police Perspective’(Doc # 1394136) dated 24 November 2008 be received for information.A Catran/A LivingstonCarried
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 9
Report of Regional Transport Committee Meeting – 1 December 20089_____________________________________________ _____________________________________________

[Tony]

Interesting point regarding accident rates vs actual numbers, yet another way statistics can be fudged.
I think you are being a bit dismissive of modern riding gear though - back in the day there wasn't really a lot of good gear to be had, leather jackets were an expensive luxury and even then rarely had any armour - if you were lucky there was a bit of padding that was good for bugger all in the event of a crash. Full face helmets were in their infancy, the normal riding gear for most was jeans and probably a jean jacket or something similar, and wet weather gear was PVC, yellow and bloody horrible in most cases!

Nicely put - but the safety gear only works if you are wearing it. Today (very hot and sunny) while riding I did a rough count and over 70% of the motorcylists I saw in west Auckland were riding with no safety gear other than a helmet. Thats no boots, no leathers or equivalent. About 50% were in shorts. This included real bikers on sports bikes and cruisers not just the normal scooter kids.

[oldrider]

And that's the problem - the powers that be aren't looking for "common ground". They're looking to change things by force.

I have to agree with you there Katman. John.

[cs363]

Nicely put - but the safety gear only works if you are wearing it. Today (very hot and sunny) while riding I did a rough count and over 70% of the motorcylists I saw in west Auckland were riding with no safety gear other than a helmet. Thats no boots, no leathers or equivalent. About 50% were in shorts. This included real bikers on sports bikes and cruisers not just the normal scooter kids.

Yep, sad but true - it brings to mind the old Bell advert '$10 head? - $10 helmet!' I can't make my mind up whether those people are
a) Skilled, experienced motorcyclists who, knowing the risk have decided to ride as safely as possible being mindful of their vulnerability (doubtful)
b) People who place no value on their bodies/lives (see Bell ad above)
c) To quote Red from 'That 70's Show' - Dumbarses! (highly likely!)

Personally my minimum for any serious hot weather riding would be summer gloves, boots and good quality armoured textile gear with the thermal liner removed. Hey, if I was just going down to the dairy or round to a mate's it might be shoes with jeans, gloves and a jacket and I'd be taking it real easy!
But each to his own - I still can't get my head around people riding without helmets when I go to the US..... I don't even like open face helmets let alone none at all.

[JohnR]

Unfortunately any agency sponsored campaign, unless it's very cleverly spun, is going to increase the "non biking" public's negative perception of motorcycling.
I for one cannot see LTNZ, ACC et al coming up with anything other than "Motorcyclist (in various states of undress) speeds, crashes and dies"
Moral = motor cycles are dangerous, don't do it and don't let anyone you love or have influence over do it either.

[Tink]

bump, just curious was "target" meaning raise our ACC levies, or this is the spark that started the fire for ACC... or I could be completely wrong, but 1 year later, has anything improved.

[Ixion]

No, the ACC issue is just bean counter bastardliness. Police are actually supportive about ACC. This was just one of the moments they have every so often, so senior cop stays out in the sun too long and gets overexited.

[red mermaid]

No, the ACC issue is just bean counter bastardliness. Police are actually supportive about ACC. This was just one of the moments they have every so often, so senior cop stays out in the sun too long and gets overexited.

Another wild arse guess on your part, as it is clear you are not a member of the police, but you make so many pronouncements on what the police do, or don't do!

[Ixion]

Oh, well OK then. I stand corrected, the gentlewoman with the scales says that it WAS the cops that were behind us getting shafted by ACC. So, we can blame her, eh.


Though all the ones I've met in the various protests have been right behind us.

[red mermaid]

Another post which does nothing to correct your last wild arse guess, and you also said at post #77, "I cannot authoritatively comment on the 5kph worse than 80mcg thing, though it sounds total garbage.", and "What is this report you mention? Does it have an author? I'll write to them and blow them up. And demand authority for their other claim"

I believe the report was cited in post #80, but you have made no comment on your claims.