All Parents

[FilthyLuka]

THE BIKE SHOP SHOULD HAVE A PROPORTION OF BLAME

well god damn winja... that actually sounds intellegent and logical. Hmm, beer for you!

The bike shop still didnt force the dude to ride the large bike, so they shouldnt be held entirely responsible for his death. But some blame should be placed on the dealership... that would be the smart way of doing things (so obviously it wont happen any time soon). heh, its all fine and dandy to talk about these issues, but untill these ideas (which are pretty decent on your guys part) are implemented, the nz broken arsed law system will stay the same...

[Ixion]

Hm. Initally I would have agreed with Mr Scumdog. But now I'm not so sure. Analagous to the poison example - if a kid asks me if he can play with my loaded gun, and I say, sure, and give it to him, and he kills himself, what's the law say about that?

Needs more info. How old was the guy. And what did the bike shop do/say? Did they try to talk him out of it? Tell him why it was a bad idea?

If the guy was not a kid, and they tried to make him see it was a bad idea but he said "Hey, I'm an adult, I realise the issues, I'm a very responsible person, I take full responsibility, etc " then that's one thing.

If they just went "Sale $$$$$, here's the keys" , well, yeah I see where Mr WINJA's coming from. Not a good look either, lying to the finance company about it.

[WINJA]

Hm. Initally I would have agreed with Mr Scumdog. But now I'm not so sure. Analagous to the poison example - if a kid asks me if he can play with my loaded gun, and I say, sure, and give it to him, and he kills himself, what's the law say about that?

Needs more info. How old was the guy. And what did the bike shop do/say? Did they try to talk him out of it? Tell him why it was a bad idea?

If the guy was not a kid, and they tried to make him see it was a bad idea but he said "Hey, I'm an adult, I realise the issues, I'm a very responsible person, I take full responsibility, etc " then that's one thing.

If they just went "Sale $$$$$, here's the keys" , well, yeah I see where Mr WINJA's coming from. Not a good look either, lying to the finance company about it.

THE GUY WAS 25, HE DID NOT GO INTO THE SHOP INTENDING TO BUY THE BIKE, HE ACTUALLY TRADED A FAR SLOWER BIKE THAT HE HAD JUST CRASHED BADLY, THE OTHER GUY THAT BOUGHT THE VTR1000 SAID JUST HOURS AFTER HE BOUGHT IT THAT HE MADE A MISTAKE BUT THE SALESMAN MADE IT ALL SOUND SO GOOD,IN REALITY HE CRASHED A BIKE THAT HE COULDNT AFFORD THE PAYMENTS ON ANYWAY,HE COULDNT KEEP UP WITH HIS MATES WHO HAD 1000S CAUSE HE WAS STILL JUST LEARNING, AND HE NEVER GOT ALL THE CHICKS HE WAS PROMISED EITHER.


IF THEY DIDNT SELL HIM THE BIKE HED STILL BE ALIVE , THATS JUST A FACT

[WINJA]

err... what kind of a dumb arse kid drinks something he found next to a letter box? especially YOUR letterbox... i dont understand... HEY! a beaker filled with something!

glug, glug, glug... KATHUNK

THATS RIGHT PEOPLE MAKE STUPID DECESIONS , DOESNT MEAN YOU SHOULD HELP THEM

[scumdog]

THE GUY WAS 25, HE DID NOT GO INTO THE SHOP INTENDING TO BUY THE BIKE, HE ACTUALLY TRADED A FAR SLOWER BIKE THAT HE HAD JUST CRASHED BADLY,
IF THEY DIDNT SELL HIM THE BIKE HED STILL BE ALIVE , THATS JUST A FACT

So he learnt nothing from his previous bin???

Sure, the bike shop may have pressured him, you didn't make that point initially BUT even if there was some form of requirement to show a full motorbike licence people will get around it/ignore it - i.e. Look at those on this site on 250cc+ bikes who have no licence or are on learners etc.

People are always finding ways around legislation - radar detectors, false ID to get into nightclubs, borrowing tyres just to get a WOF- you name it, they'll find a way.

[scumdog]

Hm. Initally I would have agreed with Mr Scumdog. But now I'm not so sure. Analagous to the poison example - if a kid asks me if he can play with my loaded gun, and I say, sure, and give it to him, and he kills himself, what's the law say about that?.

C'mon, there's a whole world of difference between passing a loaded gun to a kid and a gunshop miles from a crime scene selling bullets legitimately to somebody who later uses said bullets in a crime.

Sort of like BO selling petrol to somebody that later does a drive-by shooting - should BP then be blamed for the shooting??

Yeah, in hindsight (after WINJA told the full story) the bikeshop could have exercised a little more restraint in selling the bike - BUT at the end of the day nobody put a knife to the throat of WINJAS mate and told him to ride outside his abilities.

[Edbear]

HE ACTUALLY TRADED A FAR SLOWER BIKE THAT HE HAD JUST CRASHED BADLY,
IF THEY DIDNT SELL HIM THE BIKE HED STILL BE ALIVE , THATS JUST A FACT

Are you sure he'd still be alive...?

[Ixion]

Well, selling him a bike manifestly beyond his capability didn't help. I'm coming round to agreeing with Mr WINJA. Selling a high powered bike to a learner who's already just crashed a slwer bike may not be illegal , but it hardly seems ethical.

Of course, car salesmen presumably do it all the time, judging by the number of boi-racers in fast cars ? On the other hand, what of the salesman who sells Ethel a new car? Odds are it's far more powerful than Ethel could handle. But she really won't ever drive it fast.

And what of the salesman who sells a 4WD to a soccer mom. Odds are if she ever DID try to take it off road she'd get hurt. She never will, but the vehicle has the potential.

I've heard tales of inexperienced riders being persuaded by bike shops to buy bigger bikes. Anyone actually ever experienced it or is it an urban myth?

We have bike, and car salesmen here. What do they say, how is the matter viewed within the industry?

[SwanTiger]

I believe all suppliers of goods have a social responsibility (and more often than not a legal responsibility) so I can understand what WINJA is trying to convey.

I know of 2 people who have recently gone and brought bigger bikes to "keep up" a few weeks after purchasing a suitable learner bike. Both of them have since had accidents.

Mark is a good example, he had a mint GN 250 and sold it ('cos it was too slow) for the much more powerful GPX, crashed it, then sold that for a ZXR, a bit more powerful again, and has crashed it twice.

Or maybe the Grim Reaper has retired and Darwin has taken over?

[WINJA]

Are you sure he'd still be alive...?

WILL YOU BE ALIVE TOMOROW?

[BAD DAD]

Get the license before you take your bike, plane, gun or truck out on the road. It is just going to make life so much easier without convictions and fines and all the bullshit that goes with living even slightly outside the law.
Apart from insurance issues and all that, if you are involved in an accident and you don't have the correct paperwork guess who is going to take ALL the blame

[fatnold]

Personal responsibility - the guy who bought the bike---dickhead, the bloke who sold it----dickhead. People like this are the reasons why ACC bike premiums are so fucken high.

[NighthawkNZ:Me]

THE GUY WAS 25, HE DID NOT GO INTO THE SHOP INTENDING TO BUY THE BIKE, HE ACTUALLY TRADED A FAR SLOWER BIKE THAT HE HAD JUST CRASHED BADLY, THE OTHER GUY THAT BOUGHT THE VTR1000 SAID JUST HOURS AFTER HE BOUGHT IT THAT HE MADE A MISTAKE BUT THE SALESMAN MADE IT ALL SOUND SO GOOD,IN REALITY HE CRASHED A BIKE THAT HE COULDNT AFFORD THE PAYMENTS ON ANYWAY,HE COULDNT KEEP UP WITH HIS MATES WHO HAD 1000S CAUSE HE WAS STILL JUST LEARNING, AND HE NEVER GOT ALL THE CHICKS HE WAS PROMISED EITHER.

First of all no disrespect intended and condulences to your friends passing... however...

couldn't keep up with his mates???? why was his mates pushing beyond his capabilities... peer presure? were they speeding? too me the mates have to take some responsibility too... forcing to push his limits, when they knew he was a learner... why didnt they say mate you shouldn't be riding this beast... at least his mates should be saying ride your own ride, and we will meet you at... or ride as a group. hell they knew he was on a learners and on a big bike...

IF THEY DIDNT SELL HIM THE BIKE HED STILL BE ALIVE , THATS JUST A FACT

who said... one can cause just as big a mess on a 250 as you can on a 1000

He knew he wasn't allowed to; legally allowed to ride the bike for a start if he was still on his learners... even if he had his full license he could still make a mistake and its all over... (all riders know this)

When I bought my recent bike the sales person didn't even ask what license I had, he ask what do I want it for, touring, racing, comuting or bit of everything... but I knew I could happily ride anything in the shop and if I couldn't for any reason, (including learner licence) it is my responsibility to tell the sales person that I am only allowed a 250

I am allowed to own any vechicle even if I am not allow to drive it... I can buy a 18 wheeler mac truck if I want even if I don't have a heavy transport license... I am just to not allowed to drive it on the road and its my responsability that I don't. It is not the sales persons, my partners or my parents responsability but mine and mine alone.

We all have to take responsibility for our actions, we all know this by the time we leave high school... and those that say they didn't know in my eyes are idiots/fools or liers or both

Again no disrespect intended and condulences to your friends passing... however...

[Denniso]

Just my 2c worth , if you want to go faster dont buy a 600 buy a formula 3 bike , GO RACING . You'll learn a hell of a lot more about riding and dont have to deal with loose gravel , sheep , idots in cars and all the other crap that goes with road riding. Also as an aside most of the road riders I know that went straight to fast bikes without any intermediate bikes inbetween only learned how to go fast in a straight line.

[Ixion]

But I rather like having to deal with the loose gravel, sheep, idiots in cars and ither crap that goes with road riding. Personally I can think of nothing more boring than racing, just riding round and round the same little stretch of road.