NZ Roads: Criminal Negligence?

[idleidolidyll]

"Drive to the conditions" - ya cannae always notice gravel ahead.

OKay Okay Scumdog. So we need some less permanent signal till the stuff gets skidded outa the way. We could put down warning neon flags to drop da hint to transit and works boys. Easily relocated to da next destination they don't sweep up.

Hitch - could also be used to mark perfectly good road sections they've screwed up.

Not an issue.
Transit has gone to great lengths to find a paint that will stand constant traffic. A bit of flouro marker paint (the type they use on the roads BEFORE fucking them up with gravel) won't last long at all.

This is a safety issue that has existed for a decade or more. Prior to about that time the road workers DID at least make some effort to create a safe surface for all vehicles.

Perhaps we are doing Transit and the Councils a favour: maybe they don't know that the road surfaces are dangerous to bikes because they are not programmed to think about us. How many potholes, shiny bits and constantly gravelled sections will it take before they get the message? Probably not many if the thing is handled well. A quality anonymous video and covering letter sent to the Cambell Show, some calls to talkback stations, a few anonymous safety tagger letters to MP's and the Govt and we are quite likely to get air time. Some know and some don't but it only takes 10-20 letters to Parliment, television or a Councillor get something started. That's a sad indication of Kiwi apathy but it can work in our favour.

Regardless, it has to start somewhere, the status quo is not working and is costing cyclists and motorcyclists money, injuries and possibly death.

[idleidolidyll]

However, "fit for their intended purpose" is driving or riding in a safe,prudent and law abiding fashion. Not racing.

Never quite seen the issue m'self. If you can stop in the clear hazard free length of road visible ahead, then , if you see gravel ahead, just slow down. If you can't stop in time, you are , by definition, not riding in a safe and law abiding fashion.

Only times gravel has scared me is when I've been riding faster than safe visibility. Which has happened. More than a few times. But then I blame myself for not riding safely. Nobody else is responsible for my safety. Just me. And my own observation is that it is rare for there not to be a "road works" sign at the beginning of the stretch. Usually with a 30kph limit sign, which everyone ignores.

So, if a rider doesn't see the gravel, why is he going to see something painted on the road? And if he can't slow down for the gravel, how is he going to slow down for a painted mark? Unless maybe the said rider is riding at excessive speeds?

I'm sorry, you seem to live in a different NZ than I do.
I can't count how many times I've come around a corner or over a crest doing the legal speed limit and found the road suddenly covered in gravel, wet shiny tar or massive potholes that even a Goldwing would disapear into without trace.

The point is that the roads are supposed to be safe for all traffic at the marked speeds with a margin of error. Why should we settle for anything less and allow the govt to steal some 50% of fuel tax to top up its slush fund instead of using it for the purpose it was designed for?

[The_Dover]

So, if a rider doesn't see the gravel, why is he going to see something painted on the road? And if he can't slow down for the gravel, how is he going to slow down for a painted mark? Unless maybe the said rider is riding at excessive speeds?

That's why I offered my broom.

[cooneyr]

/Rant on
I'm not even going to bother reading all of this thread. I've worked on a chip sealing gang for three summers and know of at lease 3 times where bikers have come off cause they have ignored the loose chip signs. We had a little yellow truck working hugh days trying to keep up with the sweeping behind us. The requirement on State Highways is that the road is swept and marked within 48 hours of sealing.

I'm an engineer so I know that chip seal will always loose chip (the rate of loss depends on the type - and yes there are numerous types of chip seal) unless it is blead i.e. bitumen through the chips. Either way there is potential for something to slide on. Best you ride to the conditions, if the change reduce your speed!

Another point - numerous times some wally contractors drops crap on the road aggregate, concrete etc - this is actually againse the law and transit will prosicute if it is not cleaned up and it poses a hazard. Most often these contractors are not roading contractors. I know of many sites where vehicles are required to be washed before they leave to stop this happening.

The road is not a race track
Rant off/

Why dont you just get an adventure bike - gravel is much more fun than a sealed road?

R

[Ixion]

I'm sorry, you seem to live in a different NZ than I do.
I can't count how many times I've come around a corner or over a crest doing the legal speed limit and found the road suddenly covered in gravel, wet shiny tar or massive potholes that even a Goldwing would disapear into without trace.

The point is that the roads are supposed to be safe for all traffic at the marked speeds with a margin of error. Why should we settle for anything less and allow the govt to steal some 50% of fuel tax to top up its slush fund instead of using it for the purpose it was designed for?

No they're not. Where did you get that idea? The speed limit is just that, a speed LIMIT. There has never been any suggestion, let alone a guarantee, that anyone can drive or ride safely at that speed anywhere.

If you come around a corner, or over a crest , and find the road "suddenly" covered in anything (including bathtubs) , then you are going too fast. The correct speed around any corner, or over any crest, is that speed which allows you to see sufficient of the road ahead to be able to safely stop in the visible distance . That speed, on a blind corner, or crest may be very much less than the speed limit or any posted speed. And very much less than the maximum speed that the vehicle can go round the corner at. It's all in the road code .

[idleidolidyll]

No they're not. Where did you get that idea? The speed limit is just that, a speed LIMIT. There has never been any suggestion, let alone a guarantee, that anyone can drive or ride safely at that speed anywhere.

If you come around a corner, or over a crest , and find the road "suddenly" covered in anything (including bathtubs) , then you are going too fast. The correct speed around any corner, or over any crest, is that speed which allows you to see sufficient of the road ahead to be able to safely stop in the visible distance . That speed, on a blind corner, or crest may be very much less than the speed limit or any posted speed. And very much less than the maximum speed that the vehicle can go round the corner at. It's all in the road code .

actually the posted speed limits indicate a contract between the driving public and the road keepers.
The contract is that as long as we drive within the posted speed limits, the roads will be relatively safe for our use.
with regard to the shocking state of roads with respect to motorcycls; you might be happy to bend over and take it but i'm not
if we were to take your suggestion as the word of dog, we would all ride at 30kph anywhere we couldn't see 30 metres in front of us.

however, if you object so much to this cunning plan, you have no obligation to join in the protest but don't think for a second that anyone here is going to take the idea of riding from Clevedon to Kaiaua at 30kph seriously

[Motu]

There may not be signs,but the clues are there well before the road works,I actualy don't look for the road signs,I'm aware ''something is up'' before I'm on them.Once you are off the main highways you are into rural roads that are the life blood of the area...people are going about their daily tasks,getting with life - you are the intruder,be respectfull.

You have to be aware of your surroundings,where you are and what time of the day - around 4.00pm I expect to see cows wandering across the road to the milk shed,mid morning and late afternoon I expect to come across milk tankers,late december early january I expect to see hay making equipment being transported between farms.Know your surroundings and fit into them,don't try and make them fit your ideals.Slow down and look around,it's a nice land out there.

[scracha]

Never quite seen the issue m'self. If you can stop in the clear hazard free length of road visible ahead, then , if you see gravel ahead, just slow down. If you can't stop in time, you are , by definition, not riding in a safe and law abiding fashion.

Ixion, I've not been riding in NZ long but as others have said, there's been plenty of corners I've ridden round at say, 60Kmph only to find loose gravel & $hit halfway round causing me to run wide as I'm trying to scubb off a little speed and turn at the same time. Yes, I try and spot stuff like this and accordingly corner/brake at maybe 50% of my max in NORMAL riding but sometimes even this isn't enough. Have you tried spotting gravel on a bike at night or are you saying we should all ride at 70Kmph?

What if the kiwi mafia...sorry...Fulton Hogan left oil on the road. Would that be our responsibility to anticipate too? Nobody's saying the roads should be all billiard smooth sticky tarmac. We're just saying that after work is done on the road some common sense should apply and the excess gravel removed.

As for the road building process over here (reportedly it costs an 8th of laying tarmac).....well it can't be that good as they seem to have to fix the same stretch of road every couple of years.

[Ixion]

actually the posted speed limits indicate a contract between the driving public and the road keepers.
The contract is that as long as we drive within the posted speed limits, the roads will be relatively safe for our use.
with regard to the shocking state of roads with respect to motorcycls; you might be happy to bend over and take it but i'm not
if we were to take your suggestion as the word of dog, we would all ride at 30kph anywhere we couldn't see 30 metres in front of us.

however, if you object so much to this cunning plan, you have no obligation to join in the protest but don't think for a second that anyone here is going to take the idea of riding from Clevedon to Kaiaua at 30kph seriously

Goodness. It takes you 30 metres to stop from 30kph? Now I see your problem. I suggest either a bike with better brakes, or a riding course. Those run by the Ride Right Ride safe organisation are well recommended. They will be able to teach you how to stop much more quickly.

But I am afraid that there is no contract anywhere that says that "as long as we drive within the posted speed limits, the roads will be relatively safe for our use." How indeed could there be. You have been listening to too much LTSA propaganda. Just keeping to the speed limit is never any guarantee of safety . Nor, conversely, is exceeding the speed limit inherently unsafe (though given your braking problems, it probably would be for you)

[idleidolidyll]

Goodness. It takes you 30 metres to stop from 30kph? Now I see your problem.
No sweetie, that's the MOT recommendation and since you seem such a puerile stickler for regulations, i offered that as consistant with your simplistic mindset.

I suggest either a bike with better brakes, or a riding course. Those run by the Ride Right Ride safe organisation are well recommended. They will be able to teach you how to stop much more quickly.
Your suggestion is noted and I'll think on it the next time my back wheel is waving at the sky or as I zoom past you into a corner

But I am afraid that there is no contract anywhere that says that "as long as we drive within the posted speed limits, the roads will be relatively safe for our use." How indeed could there be. You have been listening to too much LTSA propaganda. Just keeping to the speed limit is never any guarantee of safety . Nor, conversely, is exceeding the speed limit inherently unsafe (though given your braking problems, it probably would be for you)

Dear ickyone, it's a social contract, an expectation of safety if one is to drive/ride within the bounadries of the law. You'll find, if you look beyond your fragile ego, that such social contracts are the very basis of modern society

[cooneyr]

No they're not. Where did you get that idea? The speed limit is just that, a speed LIMIT. There has never been any suggestion, let alone a guarantee, that anyone can drive or ride safely at that speed anywhere.

I'm with Ixion here. The speed limits are maximums for that length of road. The corner advisory speed limits are just that advisory. Basically you are on you own on the road - ride to the safe speed. It is entirely up to you to judge how fast is safe. Are Transit/Councils goingto run around putting up signs for cows crossing the road, tractors travelling along the road etc etc. Think about it logically - there is no way Transit/Council can warn you or every hazard.

From the online road code at
http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/roa...wordindex.html

4. Knowing your limits
Speed
Safe speed guidelines

You can drive at any speed under or equal to the limit, provided:

your speed is safe for the traffic conditions - eg, busy road, pedestrians, joggers, etc
your speed is safe for the road conditions - eg, bumpy, narrow, wet or icy roads
your speed is safe for the weather conditions - eg, rain, wind or fog
you can stop short of a vehicle that you are following - if a vehicle ahead of you stops suddenly and you run into the back of it, you will be in the wrong
on a road with no centre line or lanes (eg, a narrow country road where vehicles may meet head-on) you can stop in half the length of clear road you can see in front of you
on a road with a centre line or lanes, you can stop in the length of clear lane you can see in front of you

R

[Ixion]

Ixion, I've not been riding in NZ long but as others have said, there's been plenty of corners I've ridden round at say, 60Kmph only to find loose gravel & $hit halfway round causing me to run wide as I'm trying to scubb off a little speed and turn at the same time. Yes, I try and spot stuff like this and accordingly corner/brake at maybe 50% of my max in NORMAL riding but sometimes even this isn't enough. Have you tried spotting gravel on a bike at night or are you saying we should all ride at 70Kmph?

What if the kiwi mafia...sorry...Fulton Hogan left oil on the road. Would that be our responsibility to anticipate too? Nobody's saying the roads should be all billiard smooth sticky tarmac. We're just saying that after work is done on the road some common sense should apply and the excess gravel removed.

As for the road building process over here (reportedly it costs an 8th of laying tarmac).....well it can't be that good as they seem to have to fix the same stretch of road every couple of years.

Oh, so have I of course. As we all have. And jolly scarey it can be, too. But if I have steamed round a corner at a speed that events show was unwise (and, after all, had you known what lay round the corner, you would have gone slower, right? So manifestly the speed was unwise) , and given myself a fright, then I blame myself, for being impetuous. Not the road. Or the makers of it. My safety: my responsibility. No-one else's.

And if 70kph is the maximum speed which permits safe riding and identification of hazards, then , yes, 70kph is the speed which we should ride at. Like most, I will probably ride rather faster. and then get a fright. But that is my fault for not sticking to the boring, but safe, 70kph.

I would also prefer that loose gravel was removed. But it is not. Sometimes it is, but the chips loosen up and break free over a period. It is an imperfect world. In a perfect world the roads would be free of all obstructions (and other traffic). But in this imperfect world they are not. Sometimes there is gravel on them. I deal with it. My job. My responsibility. And I am more worried about bathtubs, and Mabel, than gravel.

[cooneyr]

Dear ickyone, it's a social contract, an expectation of safety if one is to drive/ride within the bounadries of the law. You'll find, if you look beyond your fragile ego, that such social contracts are the very basis of modern society

Good luck with that one in court! The law is NOT confined to the posted speed limit which is a maximum - read the remainder of the statement from my last post. There is enough in there to make it your responsibility.

R

[idleidolidyll]

Good luck with that one in court! The law is NOT confined to the posted speed limit which is a maximum - read the remainder of the statement from my last post. There is enough in there to make it your responsibility.

R

cheers cooneyr, you may or may not be correct but imo it's time that criminal negligence was at least suggested in reference to our roads and motorcyclists.

[idleidolidyll]

Oh, so have I of course. As we all have. And jolly scarey it can be, too. But if I have steamed round a corner at a speed that events show was unwise (and, after all, had you known what lay round the corner, you would have gone slower, right?

posthumous recognition of the road conditions may give Transit NZz and Fulton Hogan succor but the grieving relatives of dead motorcyclists will hardly thank you for the mention