NZ Roads: Criminal Negligence?

[Ghost Lemur]

why certainly. that is indeed one option. obviously i prefer another option; ensuring the safety of the roads to the best of their ability for all road users

i never said there were any guarantees in life, even social contracts are subject to the good will of the parties

however, please don't confine your comments to road works and gravel leftovers. this thread was intended to identify potholes, slippery shiny surfaces, off camber corners, grooves running down the the road around corners and more.

the surest way to ensure nothing is done for motorcycle safety on our roads is to accept the status quo and blame the victim for the accident

If ANY government has to choose between spending billions more on roads or dropping the national open road limit to 80kph, it's not hard to see which they'll choose.

Personally I'm for letting Darwin take care of the problem and not blaming anyone other than the one in control of themselves.

You may want to live in a Nanny state where the goverment protects you from dangers, but I'll stick to have that responsibility myself (and the freedom that that entails).

[idleidolidyll]

If it looks like a dog, smells like a dog, barks like a dog.....
It could always be a cat pretending to be a dog I s'pose.....

wow! it's amazing how many thin skinned people here are challenged by motorcycle discussions

[_Gina_]

I think the word I am looking for is....context - (feel free to correct me if I have fucked it up)

I have no idea whether you are seriously offended, having a laugh or taking the piss with your responses to different posts in this thread and others.

And hey, having thick skin is not all that bad is it??? It's kinda like having extra protection when you fall off your bike and the leathers wear through on the coarse chip....

[Hitcher]

it's true i'm a PR graduate

Please god, tell me that qualifications aren't being issued in this subject matter. Run, run to the hills!

[Motu]

How can you ride to the conditions if you don't know they are going to change around the next bend?

Oh boy - ok,you come around a corner and find a patch of unmarked gravel,a bloody great pothole or some such.You crash and do much damage to your bike,it's even written off,and you broke your collar bone and sprained a finger.Some one is to blame,the bloody roading contactor I expect....you make him pay for your bike and loss of earnings.

Same corner,same conditions,same speed - you come around the corner and find an unmarked two year old girl...you can't stop in the available distance,run her down and kill her.Some one is to blame,the stupid parents I expect....

I know who I will blame.

[HTFU]

quote - it would be much harder for the govt and transit NZ to ignore motorcycles and bicycles. I'm keen to give it a go, any takers?

Bro go hard, I don't think any rider would disagree with the state of our sealed highways and the frustration of nothing changing (as with everything - health, roads, education, legal system, crime etc) . Even those who like gravel hate it on the top of the seal. These hybrid roads our taxes pay for also cause cars to come to grief, so yes, as some have stated, its our responsibility to be careful and weary of every bend you ride but the general state of them is in my humble opinion is still not up to standard.

So do like a South Aucklander and mark your territory ( paint, signs, tags are all good ideas for those who have the energy and passion - I mean shock horror people actually acting on their discontent of a government system - how dare you). As for the politics of the whole issue (political issues seem to get the most replies) two words "liberal government" try teaching secondary school level where kids need 10 warnings fully documented for doing stupid things before anything happens. Does your head in as does this roading issue.

As someone new to the world of motorised riding I can see how motorcycle issues are missed in the world of government - as a non rider you just don't see and appreciate the issues. You simply go about your life in the car blind and unaware. I was fully aware of cycling issues and had similar frustrations as a cyclist but you don't give a thought about motorbikes even though there are similar issues.

On a side note I have clocked up 7000km on my 4 month old GN 250 which now sports duro median dual purpose tyres. This little chinese hog goes everywhere (slowly).

Safe riding people.

[crack]

However, "fit for their intended purpose" is driving or riding in a safe,prudent and law abiding fashion. Not racing.

Never quite seen the issue m'self. If you can stop in the clear hazard free length of road visible ahead, then , if you see gravel ahead, just slow down. If you can't stop in time, you are , by definition, not riding in a safe and law abiding fashion.

Only times gravel has scared me is when I've been riding faster than safe visibility. Which has happened. More than a few times. But then I blame myself for not riding safely. Nobody else is responsible for my safety. Just me. And my own observation is that it is rare for there not to be a "road works" sign at the beginning of the stretch. Usually with a 30kph limit sign, which everyone ignores.

So, if a rider doesn't see the gravel, why is he going to see something painted on the road? And if he can't slow down for the gravel, how is he going to slow down for a painted mark? Unless maybe the said rider is riding at excessive speeds?

I don't know about you, or the rest of you, but what happens when you are out in the Suburbs, or out around the hills, all nice and windy, you lean into a corner at 20-30kph, and as you get into the corner, to late you see GRAVEL, down you go, scratch your paint, rip a glove,break a clutch lever, or you are riding in the wet, take a line through a corner, you can see right through the corner, but you can't see the metal manhole, due to the rain, and down you go.

Shit I have even had it where there are no warning signs where there jolly well should have been.

This is bull shit where we have organisations that will only limit there liability to personal damage, not injury, not the cost of getting a lawyer, not the cost of time off work, sorry but IXION, you are wrong.

I do agree with your comment about the concrete roads , very sensible, and practicle solution, it is what they us in the USA, and Europe.

Hang on did I use the word sensible, nah can't have.



PS: am going to be out of touch for a while, be good now.

[idleidolidyll]

If ANY government has to choose between spending billions more on roads or dropping the national open road limit to 80kph, it's not hard to see which they'll choose.

Personally I'm for letting Darwin take care of the problem and not blaming anyone other than the one in control of themselves.

You may want to live in a Nanny state where the goverment protects you from dangers, but I'll stick to have that responsibility myself (and the freedom that that entails).

do you really think that's the choice?
all that's being asked is for existing regulations to be practiced and for recognition to be given to the fact that certain road conditions are particularly dangerous to single track vehicles.

[Lou Girardin]

The question is whether anyone has tried to sue the roading authorities for criminal nuisance in these cases. We couldn't rely on the Police to take action against a Govt Dept, perhaps a lawyer wanting to make a name for himself would do it on a pro-bono basis.

[idleidolidyll]

quote - it would be much harder for the govt and transit NZ to ignore motorcycles and bicycles. I'm keen to give it a go, any takers?

Bro go hard, I don't think any rider would disagree with the state of our sealed highways and the frustration of nothing changing (as with everything - health, roads, education, legal system, crime etc) . Even those who like gravel hate it on the top of the seal. These hybrid roads our taxes pay for also cause cars to come to grief, so yes, as some have stated, its our responsibility to be careful and weary of every bend you ride but the general state of them is in my humble opinion is still not up to standard.

So do like a South Aucklander and mark your territory ( paint, signs, tags are all good ideas for those who have the energy and passion - I mean shock horror people actually acting on their discontent of a government system - how dare you). As for the politics of the whole issue (political issues seem to get the most replies) two words "liberal government" try teaching secondary school level where kids need 10 warnings fully documented for doing stupid things before anything happens. Does your head in as does this roading issue.

As someone new to the world of motorised riding I can see how motorcycle issues are missed in the world of government - as a non rider you just don't see and appreciate the issues. You simply go about your life in the car blind and unaware. I was fully aware of cycling issues and had similar frustrations as a cyclist but you don't give a thought about motorbikes even though there are similar issues.

On a side note I have clocked up 7000km on my 4 month old GN 250 which now sports duro median dual purpose tyres. This little chinese hog goes everywhere (slowly).

Safe riding people.

well said.

i too am a cyclist as well as a motorcyclist and yes, i drive a tin top too.

as a cyclist i shudder at the unecessary injury and death rate due largely to the lack of a kerb strip that bikes can ride on rural roads: the moment a truck or car passes too close. their lives are in mortal danger. likewise in most of our cities where provision for cyclists is woeful to say the least and downright dangerous in reality. On a trip into Auckland city from Manukau, a distance of 18km, I once counted the potential life threatening situations presented; it was staggering; more than 100 each direction.

As for motorcycles, well you've probably read what I think by now. Too many here have taken the usual escape routes that Kiwis so often take; apathy and the tall poppy syndrome.
Fine, don't do anything but please, don't expect me not to do anything. As motivation all I have to do is remember my wife dropping her little Ducati on a West Coast sealed road covered in invisible gravel or the fear she had when the Kawakawa to Orewa Rd was covered in much the same way after it had been constructed. In both cases there were no warning signs at all.

As I said, I'm happy to make a stand for two wheeled transport. If I'm arrested in the process I will WELCOME the opportunity to put our case before the cameras and newspapers of the country.

[Motu]

Goody - now that he has shone brightly for a short time and extinguished himself we can carry on without his constant interference.So now I can jump over the fence and work from his side and complain about roading contractors.

The randomness and variable quality of the spray with tar and toss on some chip repair puzzles me....response from the guy who knows is welcome.This is a Private Investigation,Not a Public Inquirey.3 I have noticed recently -

Mahia Rd in Sth Auck was done a few months ago,it has mostly come off leaving a hell of a mess,WTF? Why even bother? In Mt Roskill Dornwell Rd and Britten Ave were rechipped - while they were doing it someone dug a trench across the road,they worked around it and the trench was filled with hot mix,while they were still doing the chip!!!! Like...like,oh,I just give up.There is still loose chip because they can't sweep with all the parked cars.Why don't they just close the road,do the job,and finish it....too much PC crap in their way.

The entry and exit of the Rangiriri bridge were done a few days ago - I knew that because the road had paint marks and bad spots marked.There is a hump pushed up in the middle of the corner on the west side,by the Te Kauwhata Transport trucks.It's in the centre of the road and in no ones way...unless you cut the corner or run wide....and it was marked with yellow paint,that's good I thought.So they have rechipped....and the hump is still there,they just tarred and feathered right over the top!

I'm not complaining about the contractors really,they are capable of doing a good job - but there seems to be no guidance from above,they just go and do what they are told,doing what they are told is what they are paid for.Someone can't see the whole picture,it just seems such a waste of manhours we all pay for.

So how's that for changing side mid battle?

[The_Dover]

Perhaps the civil engineers and project managers that are co-ordinating these works should take some responsibility about the quality of the job?

After all, at teh end of the day, someone has to sign off the job do they not?

[dnos]

Seeme to be the way it goes eh.
They were resealing the road outside our flat a couple months ago and not only was i shocked about the lack of effort displayed by the road workers and the time it took to complete, but the finished product was absolute crap. There was no attempt made to sweep the road once marking was done, and the first hot day we had it all melted and was messed up by the small amount of traffic on the road.

Your right these guys are just doing what they are told - all to a contract price. There needs to be some clear guidelines as to just what is expected, and what I really want is some resealing to be done that can last more than six months without breaking up and becoming bumpy potholes and lumps.
On one set of works along the state highway up here one section of resealed road started getting potholes before the rest of the job was even completed! This was fixed, but why can't it be done right the first time?

[cooneyr]

The randomness and variable quality of the spray with tar and toss on some chip repair puzzles me....response from the guy who knows is welcome.This is a Private Investigation,Not a Public Inquirey.3 I have noticed recently -

Following comments in the interests of providing some technical info only - had enough of the politics. Tar is what they use to use till the coal gas plants were closed, now days it is bitumen, which is a heavy component of oil (butane is a light component of oil). Bitument was originally promoted by shell as they had excessive amounts of it liying around and they wanted to find a market. Bitumen is better than tar in that it is a more consistant product.

Mahia Rd in Sth Auck was done a few months ago,it has mostly come off leaving a hell of a mess,WTF? Why even bother? In Mt Roskill Dornwell Rd and Britten Ave were rechipped - while they were doing it someone dug a trench across the road,they worked around it and the trench was filled with hot mix,while they were still doing the chip!!!! Like...like,oh,I just give up.There is still loose chip because they can't sweep with all the parked cars.Why don't they just close the road,do the job,and finish it....too much PC crap in their way.

Most city council standards now requre that any road opening (trench) be surfaced with mix. This is bacause of a number of reason as I understand it
1 - Easier for most contractors to turn up with a bit of mix on a truck than to heat and transport bitumen to site.
2 - High traffic volumes (anywhere in town) generally ruin chip seal before it gets a chance to go off i.e. bitument cool and thinners (desiel/kero) evaporate. This is especially true in turning and accelleration/braking areas including parking areas (even on street parking). Mix is much more durable in a much shorter period.

In saying all of this it is pretty crappy (looks shit if nothing else) to put a mix patch in a brand new seal - especially when seal is being laid at the same time. Some engineer who signed off onthe road open notice should have spotted the overlap of works at the site and adjusted reqirements.

Sweep can sometimes be posponed due to point 2 above. The excess chip protects the seal/bitume while the bitumen is going off. Would have expected that a week should be sufficient though. Any longer than this is lazyness on contractors behalf and poor management for not following through. Also chip seals weill continue to loose chip for quite a long time afterwards (could be a year depending on traffic). This is because often loose chips get caught betwen others and are not swept up but as the stuck chips settle due to traffic the loose chips can become properly loose and flicked out. There can be a supprising amount of this depending on heat of day, how little or much traffic there is and the type of chip seal.

The entry and exit of the Rangiriri bridge were done a few days ago - I knew that because the road had paint marks and bad spots marked.There is a hump pushed up in the middle of the corner on the west side,by the Te Kauwhata Transport trucks.It's in the centre of the road and in no ones way...unless you cut the corner or run wide....and it was marked with yellow paint,that's good I thought.So they have rechipped....and the hump is still there,they just tarred and feathered right over the top!

Trucks turning into yard possibly rolling chip (stones can be turned in bitumen) hence bringing bitument to top (called bleeding). This is a skidding hazard and also causes a mess (ever played in hot bitumen). Old fasion practice is to burn the bitumen off but this produces massive clouds of icky smoke. Now days either waterblast and suck up crap or seal over again with reduced quantities of bitumen to try and stop bleeding. As for hump - chip seal does nothing to smooth a road - that requires diging the lump out and there may be good reason for it being there such as making sure there is the minimum cover over a buried pipe. This is to ensure the loadings on the pipe are not to high as aggregate over a pipe distributeds the load (there is a maximum cover for pipes as well but that is usually 10's of metres deep).

Hope this is informative.
Cheers
R

[_Gina_]

Can't remember where this brain snippet came from (20/20, Talkback, NZ Herald...)

Apparently Utility Services companies are at cross purposes and will often dig up the same section of road to access different cables, lines etc.

This has an impact on all manner of things, not the least of which is the road condition and substandard repair methods.