NZ Roads: Criminal Negligence?

[Ixion]

Dear ickyone, it's a social contract, an expectation of safety if one is to drive/ride within the bounadries of the law. You'll find, if you look beyond your fragile ego, that such social contracts are the very basis of modern society

Ah, your expectations are greater than mine. I expect nothing, and am thus seldom disappointed.

But, do you then endorse the corollary of your argument? That the government should reduce the speed limit until it is low enough that driving/riding within it is safe against any possible hazard? If so, your problem with gravel is easily solved.

Or do you think that the present speed limits offer such a guarantee (as you appear to be saying elsewhere) . If they do, and you have problems, then it must be that you are riding at a speed in excess of the speed limit. Which a person with your respect for the law would not do, I am sure. From observation, the speed limit in the vicinity of road works is usually 30kph, most riders should be able to negoiate gravel at that speed (if not, see the recommendation for Ride Right, Ride Safe, above)

[idleidolidyll]

Ah, your expectations are greater than mine. I expect nothing, and am thus seldom disappointed.

But, do you then endorse the corollary of your argument? That the government should reduce the speed limit until it is low enough that driving/riding within it is safe against any possible hazard? If so, your problem with gravel is easily solved.

Or do you think that the present speed limits offer such a guarantee (as you appear to be saying elsewhere) . If they do, and you have problems, then it must be that you are riding at a speed in excess of the speed limit. Which a person with your respect for the law would not do, I am sure. From observation, the speed limit in the vicinity of road works is usually 30kph, most riders should be able to negoiate gravel at that speed (if not, see the recommendation for Ride Right, Ride Safe, above)

why certainly. that is indeed one option. obviously i prefer another option; ensuring the safety of the roads to the best of their ability for all road users

i never said there were any guarantees in life, even social contracts are subject to the good will of the parties

however, please don't confine your comments to road works and gravel leftovers. this thread was intended to identify potholes, slippery shiny surfaces, off camber corners, grooves running down the the road around corners and more.

the surest way to ensure nothing is done for motorcycle safety on our roads is to accept the status quo and blame the victim for the accident

[jahrasti]

/Rant on
I'm not even going to bother reading all of this thread. I've worked on a chip sealing gang for three summers and know of at lease 3 times where bikers have come off cause they have ignored the loose chip signs. We had a little yellow truck working hugh days trying to keep up with the sweeping behind us. The requirement on State Highways is that the road is swept and marked within 48 hours of sealing.

I'm an engineer so I know that chip seal will always loose chip (the rate of loss depends on the type - and yes there are numerous types of chip seal) unless it is blead i.e. bitumen through the chips. Either way there is potential for something to slide on. Best you ride to the conditions, if the change reduce your speed!

Another point - numerous times some wally contractors drops crap on the road aggregate, concrete etc - this is actually againse the law and transit will prosicute if it is not cleaned up and it poses a hazard. Most often these contractors are not roading contractors. I know of many sites where vehicles are required to be washed before they leave to stop this happening.

The road is not a race track
Rant off/

Why dont you just get an adventure bike - gravel is much more fun than a sealed road?

R

Ahh you beat me to it ya bastard If you have that much of a problem instead of bitching and blaming Transit, why don't you inform them of your concerns.
Transit themselves don't do the construction. If they find out about dodgy subbies then they can do something about it.
I survey rehabs for the roads and because we are walking on to the road to get a shot we put 50kph speed restrictions up and bikies are some of the worst offenders. I sometimes think that some bikies are to arrogant to obey the speed restrictions.

[jonbuoy]

Sticking to the speed limits and riding to the conditions is all well and good but if some fuckwit has sprinkled loose seal on a blind corner with no warning signs your in the shit. If it affected cars grip in the same way it does ours it would have been stopped long ago.

[cooneyr]

Chip sealing speed limit while sealing work in progress 30 kph
Chip sealing speed limit after sealing but during sweeping and marking 50 kph
Road works where you drive on gravel/loose surface 50 kph
Road works where you drive on seal but with construction traffic - individual site assessment but 50 or 70 generally

Would anybody expect to go ripping over the Desert Road or any alpine pass in the middle of winter at the speed limit? No you excercise judgement and slow down with the anticipppppppation (ohhh rocky ) of ice/ice grit. Apply the same judgement at all times - there maybe, just maybe something around this corner that could cause me grief.
R

[cooneyr]

Ahh you beat me to it ya bastard If you have that much of a problem instead of bitching and blaming Transit, why don't you inform them of your concerns.
Transit themselves don't do the construction. If they find out about dodgy subbies then they can do something about it.
I survey rehabs for the roads and because we are walking on to the road to get a shot we put 50kph speed restrictions up and bikies are some of the worst offenders. I sometimes think that some bikies are to arrogant to obey the speed restrictions.

We use to fine that walking out onto the road to "inspect" something was a good way of slowing people down - oooohhhh sorry I didnt see you comming (you fugn pillic).

Sucked when cars when through the site even at 50 kph and flicked stones at you - kinda hurt and for no reason.

R

[Ixion]

...
however, please don't confine your comments to road works and gravel leftovers. this thread was intended to identify potholes, slippery shiny surfaces, off camber corners, grooves running down the the road around corners and more.

...

'ere, that won't do. I *like* potholes and off camber. You leave them alone, they are fun. (so is gravel of course, if there's enough of it, a proper metal road - just the pea gravel over seal is not so nice)

[Ixion]

,, Apply the same judgement at all times - there maybe, just maybe something around this corner that could cause me grief.
R

Bathtubs. Blurdy bathtubs.

[idleidolidyll]

'ere, that won't do. I *like* potholes and off camber. You leave them alone, they are fun. (so is gravel of course, if there's enough of it, a proper metal road - just the pea gravel over seal is not so nice)

Dear ickyone, I'm munificent by nature; I do this not for myself but for my comrades on their rigid road bikes so poorly suited to New Zealand's goat tracks laughingly designated as public roads.
I feel confident in my personal choice of a chook chaser for a 'road bike' and i too enjoy massive rooster tails of gravel as I pass such 'roads' grinning with malevolence at the thought of the pristine 999 or MV August F4 carefully picking their way through in my wake.

[idleidolidyll]

Sticking to the speed limits and riding to the conditions is all well and good but if some fuckwit has sprinkled loose seal on a blind corner with no warning signs your in the shit. If it affected cars grip in the same way it does ours it would have been stopped long ago.

THAT is the crux of the issue: New Zealands rods are designed for cars and little to no thought is given to motorcyclists.

[jahrasti]

Sticking to the speed limits and riding to the conditions is all well and good but if some fuckwit has sprinkled loose seal on a blind corner with no warning signs your in the shit. If it affected cars grip in the same way it does ours it would have been stopped long ago.

What is'Sprinkling?' If you mean after potholes have been filled or patches have been completed then yes the contractor should sweep. If it has just been ripped up what do you want, network inspectors driving the road constantly 24/7 for a few loose chips and sealing crews on permenant stand by to fix it/sweep up even if it is 2am and a few loose stones?
I can't speak for the whole countries roads but the network we maintain have few bikers down but plenty of trucks and cars.

[jahrasti]

THAT is the crux of the issue: New Zealands rods are designed for cars and little to no thought is given to motorcyclists.

How? the road we design are either for fixing up problem areas flushing etc or for safety. I don't like when my favourite corners are in the pipe line to be taken out. It is for safety, what about truckies that also ride bikes? If they fall off while driving then they won't be there to enjoy the roads will they?

[idleidolidyll]

How? the road we design are either for fixing up problem areas flushing etc or for safety. I don't like when my favourite corners are in the pipe line to be taken out. It is for safety, what about truckies that also ride bikes? If they fall off while driving then they won't be there to enjoy the roads will they?

the use of chipseal alone, that abrasive material so hated by any fallen motorcyclist, should provide ample indication that our road designers give little to no thought to two wheeled vehicular traffic.

your opinion however, is welcome; please do continue

[cooneyr]

the use of chipseal alone, that abrasive material so hated by any fallen motorcyclist, should provide ample indication that our road designers give little to no thought to two wheeled vehicular traffic.

your opinion however, is welcome; please do continue

What you would rather have hotmix or concrete. Naff off! The skid resistance of both those materials is far below that of chip seal especially so when wet. Seems the point of this thread is that you are after cornering grip - can't have it and then expect not to experience abrasion when you have an off.

This is all besides the point that all of your salary would need to be collected as tax to pay for it. As previously stated hotmix is around 8 times more expensive to lay than chip seal - concrete is many times more expensive again.

R

[idleidolidyll]

What you would rather have hotmix or concrete. Naff off! The skid resistance of both those materials is far below that of chip seal especially so when wet. Seems the point of this thread is that you are after cornering grip - can't have it and then expect not to experience abrasion when you have an off.

This is all besides the point that all of your salary would need to be collected as tax to pay for it. As previously stated hotmix is around 8 times more expensive to lay than chip seal - concrete is many times more expensive again.

R

ahh, motorcyclists lives and limbs are to be sold cheaply, sacrificed on the altar of 4 wheeled pandering by govt.

and here i was thinking your argument was actually based on some PC fantasy

never mind, each to their own. you can suck up to Transit, Fulton Hogan and Helenback, I'll protest the pathetic lack of due care for motorcyclists in my own way as described in the original post.