Hmmmm?

[Motu]

It's a low level light, and high engine speeds will overheat the remaining oil quickly enough to cause engine damage.

So the oil gets hot enough to break down? That's stinking hot even for supermarket oil. And the rider is unaware this is happening? But in this day and age the owner,or rider is never at fault....there is always some one else to blame.I've seen cars get so hot the oil has been rendered down to tar and blocked the pickup.The owners were surprised of course,but they knew they had overheated the car severely.....but the motors were undamaged.

There could be an issue with oil usage,I won't deny that - but someone rode the bikes to a standstill.The riders name wasn't Tulongalofa was it?

[Ixion]

I think that the motor would have to be very hot to cause oil breakdown. And are these not watercooled motors? Surely the coolant would be boiling long before then.

I've seen air cooled bike engines with cast iron heads glowing red. The oil stood up to it fine, and that was the lubrication technology of 30 years ago.

If it's a level indicator I suspect a more likely scenario is that the level falls to a point that is dangerous, but "get away with", with the bike vertical and level . But spirited riding, hard cornering and breaking, will cause the (small amount of) oil remaining to slosh back and forth all over the place. Sometimes the oil pump pickup will be exposed and suck air. Soon the oil will be whipped up to an aerated froth, and the efficiency of the pump much diminished. Just a few kilometres like this could be enough to cause damage on a plain bearing engine .

This was one reason why dry sumps used to be favoured on bikes - they are more resistant to changes of attitude.

[onearmedbandit]

I bet you're right too Ixion. Nature of the beasts.

[eliot-ness]

Just to put a few things straight from someone who bought his first Triumph in 1956 and had many more, mostly 650 Bonnevilles right up to 1974, plus a brief dalliance with a 2004 Bonneville. As Motu and Ixion pointed out most of the external oil came from the breather, especially so when they "invented" the crankcase powered chain oiler. The engine and gearbox were as oil tight as any other brand provided they hadn't been butchered by backyard mechanics. Reliability was beyond question. My bikes were used 7 days a week, including a 120ks round trip to work, long distance touring with a pillion, and production racing. In 18 years I only once had a breakdown, a stripped fibre auto advance gear on the 69 pre unit T110. Nor did the bikes seem to suffer from the excessive vibration so often espoused on this forum. With no balance shaft, bar end weights or rubber mounts they compared very well with my present bike, and were certainly more comfortable to ride for distances of 6oo to 700ks. Performance wise, on the road they were streets ahead of the earlier Jap machines until the early 70s. Look up production race results for that time and you'll rarely find a Jap bike featured in the first ten.
The turning point came when Triumph decided to enlarge the 650 without strengthening an already stressed bottom end. While the 650s remained number one in the sales figures alongside the Commando the 750 brought nothing but trouble. The Trident, always refered to as a last gasp effort to beat the Honda 750 was actually designed long before. The prototype, based on the Speed Twin engine specs, including cam profiles, bore and stroke, was on the road when I was at the factory in 1963. If Triumph management had known what was to come it could have been a different story. As it was, the Trident did very well in competition, showing the opposition, including MV Agusta on one occasion, a clean, or in the case of 'Slippery Sam' oily, pair of heels well into the 70s.
The new Bonneville, although technically far more advanced and more powerful than it's 60s predecessor is nothing like it in terms of handling or riding pleasure. They have turned a lightweight thoroughbred with good if sometimes quirky handling into an overweight carthorse that performs adequately but without character.
In the case of who copied who. The W650 is undoubtably a copy of the later Bonnevilles in style but with modern engineering and a better engine. Likewise, when Triumph made the decision to bring back the Bonneville it was the W650 they looked at for inspiration. Nothing wrong or new with that. It's been going on since bikes were invented. Harley Davidson would seem to be the only manufacturer to have stuck to their own designs and survived.
Incidentally, to prove I wasn't one eyed in my choice of bikes. In 1967 I bought a Suzuki Super Six. It broke down twice in the first year. First a holed piston, second a broken gear selecter shaft. Apart from that it was a good bike with better than average performance and handling but with a top speed of only 90mph it had to go.

[James Deuce]

For goodness sake guys, the two companies, old Triumph and new Triumph are completely different companies, only vaguely linked by a similar logo and country of origin.

Talk about a fight over which apple compares best to which orange.

[BAD DAD]

I've got an old 50's Thunderbird which leaks oil from every oriffice but that old bike starts first or second kick without fail. It probabably just about qualifies as a "rat" and rattles like an old bedford bus. At the traffic lights if the phase is a long one I'll end up sitting in my own personal cloud as the head gasket exhales almost as much as the exhausts and it has obviously had plenty of attention from the odd butcher from time to time,it was "reconditioned" about 500 miles ago before I bought it. But the whole point of this waffle is that that machine is a real motorbike and has a fun rating of 99% and it must have provided real motorcycling in it's past even before I was born

[Motu]

For goodness sake guys, the two companies, old Triumph and new Triumph are completely different companies, only vaguely linked by a similar logo and country of origin.

Talk about a fight over which apple compares best to which orange.

Like a thread that even remotely smells of Harley,some people just can't keep their prejudices out of it.

[Bonez]

If Triumph management had known what was to come it could have been a different story.

The Meridian Triumph management had plenty of warning. It's just that they chose to ignore it.

Harley Davidson would seem to be the only manufacturer to have stuck to their own designs and survived.

Have you forgotten about the US govt tarrifs on Japanese bikes over 700cc in the 1980s? http://topics.nytimes.com/top/classi...es&match=exact

[James Deuce]

Most awesome Fleudian Srip of the year goes to:

had prenty of warning

[Bonez]

Most awesome Fleudian Srip of the year goes to:

Only for a nanosecond. Well caught btw.

[Motu]

If you know your motorcycle history you will know it was simply a complex issue.Dragging one bone out of the coffin and shaking it is a bit pointless....unless your only intention is to fuck around with Jim2's thread.You wouldn't be such a ground crawling guttless slimeball would you??

[Fatjim]

.Low oil presure lights are more often used on cars - and when the light comes on your engine has just destroyed itself.Why should a motorcycle be any different.

Sorry M, I'm gonna have to take issue with this. You don't need oil pressure to lubricate moving parts, you just need oil. You stop pumping oil around and the oil sitting in the bearings will still have be lubricating most of you moving parts, and exception might be parts that scrap, al a rings, than parts that rub, al a big end bearings.

In addition, oil has a zinc additive which provides a sacrificial layer of metal that wears when the lubrication fails.

I used to get the green (go figure) oil warning light on my old Anglia on occasionally, including the time I ripped a hole in the sump down by the river.

Never had a problem, that thing was THRASHED & ran cheap 30/40 oil.

[Paul in NZ]

Good Lord - this is a great thread.. wowsers the old British is best vs Jap crap - cool - it's like the 70's all over again... EXCELLENT.

Anyway - my only point was - oh no triumphs shitting their cranks again was daft.... FFS my 1970 TR6C (with 1967 engine) that I have owned damn near 18 years and personally ridden... um... heaps... At least 100,000km and it was rooted when I bought it is still on the original std big end bearings and at times it often runs bugger all oil pressure.

But an old Triumph will do that because it has a plain bearing bottom end and the centrifugal force of the crank spinning generally creates enough pressure provided the flow rate is adequate.

What we don't know is what sort of bottom end the new ones in question use and if the light is an oil pressure light (pretty well useless) or an oil level lamp (Lou answered this but was ignored).

So one thing we can agree on is nothing changed - ignore the basics on yer Trumpy and you pay the price.....

Paul N

besides - on todays wellie xmas ride whos bike got the most pictures taken of it parked up in Cuba Mall hmmm? Old Triumphs ROCK....

[Bonez]

Sorry M, I'm gonna have to take issue with this. You don't need oil pressure to lubricate moving parts, you just need oil. You stop pumping oil around and the oil sitting in the bearings will still have be lubricating most of you moving parts, and exception might be parts that scrap, al a rings, than parts that rub, al a big end bearings.

Can comfirm that. When I put Gerties engine back together I omitted to notice a small stone that had wedged itself somehow in the crank cases. Probably fell in when I lifted the barrels I imagine. Heard a loud "crack!" as it proceeded to break the gear for the oil pump drive. This runs of one of the gear shafts. Oil pressure light come on. Was probably fast idling at about 2000rpm for a minute or so prior. Didn't want to lug it. Revved the thing to see if it would go out thinking maybe I was just imagining things (possible another 30 or so, maybe more, secs went by). Nope. Turned her off. Pulled the engine out of the frame. Split the crank cases removing the stone, replaced the cracked gear shaft where the gear was mounted (nice 1 inch split where the locating pin was situated) and replaced the oil pump drive gear. Had a look at the cam cap bearing surfaces I'd lightly greased, bottem end bearing etc and oil pump as a precausionary measure. Didn't bother looking at the bores (I'd lubed them liberally with 20w50 out of an oiling can prior). No obvious damage. The engines done 70,000 plus thousand kms since then.

[Bonez]

Old Triumphs ROCK....

Certainly do. But don't tell anyone I said that. Ok?