Exclusion of Motards from F1, F2 & F3: Good or bad?

[Kyle]

At first glance id say "let them race in any class"
But then i remembered ducking under a motards handle bar, as it leaned over towards my head during an inside pass. Its not really the riders that cause the problem, not even the boot coming out. Its the geometry of the bikes, they are so different. They take different lines, and thats where the problem lies. Jealously says restrict them to their own class because the rest of us only get one class, but logic says let them race in any class which their bike can enter according to the rules. Perhaps they are onto something, maybe we should all be installing tall forks and wide handle bars on our roadbikes.
What if i desiged a race bike with dirtbike geometry, but not as an actul dirtbike, would that be a motard? i think i stick by my vote, let them in any class, too many rules bogs the world down.

[Brian d marge]

The trouble is, in F3 the sheer number of Motards and the different lines they take mean that many riders of traditional road bikes AREN'T getting the one thing that they stand to recieve from racing- an enjoyable experience.

Now theres the key, Hit the nail on the head ,,,

I didnt get where I was today without spotting a Nail being hit on the head, Neither the missus nor I got where we are today without spotting a nail being hit on the head !

I like swimming laps in the pool , but I aint enjoying it lately cause all these old ( really old ~ ) ladies after their water aerobics class decide to do laps ..not nice really not nice ..... Definatly NOT an enjoyable experience.

So why isnt the experience enjoyable , what is it about then that is really that bad ?

Is it because of the funny lines they take , which doesnt allow you to concentrate on your race craft?? ( transition points , braking points etc )

or are they really a danger ?? those back ends stepping out at strange moment takes the edge of the enjoyment ..

Those are VERY legitamate concerns,,,

( a case in point ,,at our local track there was a jump right out of a corner , a steep one too ! ... If you lost traction or didnt carry enough corner speed , crashed and burned ,,, the distance wasnt a prob , it was the height you dropped ( about 6 ft ) ,,,not a biggee , but enough to piss you off after coming up short once or twice a race ....a lot of people voted with their feet , the jump is still there , but modified .... everyone happy )

So yes the fun factor was lost , BUT the track owner is very interested in providing a enjoyable day out , so listened ,,

good luck in what ever happens

BTW I would be unhappy if I had a Motard and there was no dirt section ,,, or that I had to keep me feet up !!!

Stephen

[Hellraiser]

Yet another way of looking at it. They don't put dirfters and NZV8's out on the track at the same time, hell I don't think they even use the same meetings. But they are both modified rearwheel drive road cars with around the same power output.

They used to put the old Group A cars out with Toyota Starlets (among others), it got a tad dangerous at times, and the faster guys got pissed off at the slower guys. Eventually they stopped doing it.

I can't help but wonder though, if the confused classes, and perhaps even the internal politics of road racing in NZ, is what turns sponsors and the viewing public off.

That should be a completly differant thread ..............

"How can MCNZ better promote motorcycle sports in New Zealand"

Motorsport NZ managed to do it, Motorsport NZ also pay for TV time.

Road racing is not promoted very well in NZ.

MX is doing good see quite alot of it on TV (NZ Series).

I'm sure BOTS will get it's usual 5 seconds on TV. BOTS didn't even get on the news but yet the GNCC did!

You go to the MCNZ web site and you find more info about MX than any other discipline.

So to be quite honest i think there are way more important things that need sorting than weather or not motards can race with road bikes.

[gav]

I can't help but wonder though, if the confused classes, and perhaps even the internal politics of road racing in NZ, is what turns sponsors and the viewing public off.

I think thats part of the problem right there, the Street races tend to have too many classes, and try and keep everyone happy and usually failing.

Look at this line up:
Battle of the Streets - Paeroa

Post Classic
Junior Classic
Formula 2
Sidecars
Bears
Formula 3
Post classic Sidecars
Formula 1
Forgotten
Senior Classics
Supermoto
Robert Holden

12 classes! And they've left out buckets Surely they didnt all get there own races?

[Hellraiser]

Here's a question ............

Why doesn't MCNZ and Motorsport NZ team up and have a couple of F1 or F2 races at the same meets as the V8 tourers?

I'm sure they could slot in a couple of bike races

[gav]

Its been done before. Tends to devalue the rest of the classes, why go and watch bike racing when you can see the cream of the crop at the car races?

[Hellraiser]

Its been done before. Tends to devalue the rest of the classes, why go and watch bike racing when you can see the cream of the crop at the car races?

WTF?

thats kind of a no brainer ......... (ignore the classes I put in they were the first that came to mind)

1. Car racing has more spectators

2. Most Motorsport NZ events get lots of TV time

3. Sponsors like point 1 & 2 when being asked to part with $$$

[Kickaha]

I think thats part of the problem right there, the Street races tend to have too many classes, and try and keep everyone happy and usually failing.

Look at this line up:
Battle of the Streets - Paeroa

Post Classic
Junior Classic
Formula 2
Sidecars
Bears
Formula 3
Post classic Sidecars
Formula 1
Forgotten
Senior Classics
Supermoto
Robert Holden

12 classes! And they've left out buckets Surely they didnt all get there own races?

Post classic and post classic Junior will run together

there is no post classic sidecar class

going by the entry form there will be 10 classes 2 of which will run together

and from the entry form


10) in all classes the riding style shall be in keeping with the class you have entered

wonder who thats aimed at

[gav]

In theory it sounds great doesnt it? In Aus they did the same with the Superbikes, ran a seperate class racing on the V8 programme. End result though wasnt the big influx of crowds to see the bikes when they ran on there own. The teams also had extra expense to race at extra races, so decided, hey, lets stay with the cars for the extra exposure etc, and do less of the bike only meets! After all they didnt gain extra funding to do extra racing. So if the premier class didnt run with the rest of the bike classes, the main sponsers of the race meetings wanted to know WTF is going on? The support classes werent a big enough attraction on there own, so crowds were smaller. Afterall if the big boys arent racing why bother?

[Jantar]

How about this for a new idea.

Completely new classes:

Up to 125cc

Up to 250 cc production:

Up to 250 cc Modified or GP:

Up to 600 cc production:

Up to 600 cc Modified or GP:

Over 600 cc production:

Over 600 cc Modified or GP:

Classic, (over 25 years old) any size:

Side Cars, any size:

Only 9 classes, no seperate formula classes, and if a motard isn't exactly the way it came from the factory then it runs with the GP bikes of the same size.

[Steve_R6R]

I haven't been racing long, and I'm not too quick, but when I was even slower and trying to get around the track with some sort of consistancy those motard boys would just make me nervous and slower. They are a great road racing entry bike and I got my first taste of road racing on a motard (one race only). The thing is, when you are learning, and some motard rider on his 5th race for the day screws your only race, it just does not seem fair.
I don't think motards are any cheaper to race, they are handgrenades waiting to go pop and on the longer tracks it's along time between corners. They are also alot easier to ride/race than road type race bikes, which is why they are so popular. BTW I had the same problems with 125gp bike at the PMCC meetings at Taupo (different lines etc). Now I am a (little) bit quicker, any motard riders that I do come up against are much better riders than the ones that I had to deal with back in the pack and don't seem to be as much of a worry.

[Ivan]

How about this for a new idea.

Completely new classes:

Up to 125cc

Up to 250 cc production:

Up to 250 cc Modified or GP:

Up to 600 cc production:

Up to 600 cc Modified or GP:

Over 600 cc production:

Over 600 cc Modified or GP:

Classic, (over 25 years old) any size:

Side Cars, any size:

Only 9 classes, no seperate formula classes, and if a motard isn't exactly the way it came from the factory then it runs with the GP bikes of the same size.

Up to 125cc would be abadidea youd have 125gp bikes 125 buckets couple of 50cc buckets etc then its the exact same line we are pointing to with the motard situation a bucket goes slow around a corner different lines a 125gp bike goes fast round a corner as there speed comes from corner speed and youll end up with lots of 125 guys getting PISSED off and crashing just as dangerous,

I say run the classes they have now, Maybe have a S1 and S2 class for the 125/250F class and the 250/450F now that would be ok but why not just do that in one race? 2 sperate races in the one class.

formula 3 should remain as is bar the exclusion of motards nothing against any motarders just the lines and the whole sideways action into a turn.

600 Supersport see,s to be doing well as is

and Also sidechairs and F1 and all the other classes.

Wanganui would be a awsome bucket circuit maybe usbucket riders should start a petition aye

[Kickaha]

a bucket goes slow around a corner different lines a 125gp bike goes fast round a corner as there speed comes from corner speed and youll end up with lots of 125 guys getting PISSED off and crashing just as dangerous,

pffffffft you must race slow buckets if you think they are slow around corners,corner speed is everything in the bucket racing we do, when we race against other bikes and follow them through the corners it's the buckets that get held up

Wanganui would be a awsome bucket circuit maybe us bucket riders should start a petition aye

it'd be a crap bucket circuit, whoever had the most HP would win, handling would hardly come into it

[Ixion]

The thing that puzzles me, is how come these bikes, which are essentially rekitted MX machines, are so competitive.

I would have thought that a bike racing "out of its element" as it were, against proper road racers would be so uncompetitive as to be absurd.

After all, if you put a 21inch wheel and knobbly tyres on a road racer and entered it into MX races I do not think the results would be very good.

why then is the reverse not equally ludicrous?

Surely a dedicated road racing motorcycle, with all its fairings, clipons etc should easily be able to outrun an offroader of a race track?

[Sketchy_Racer]

pffffffft you must race slow buckets if you think they are slow around corners,corner speed is everything in the bucket racing we do, when we race against other bikes and follow them through the corners it's the buckets that get held up

I would like to see a well ridden bucket, go around a corner as fast or faster than a well ridden 125.

Not only corner speed, but all so straight line speed. There could quite easily be a 90KPH speed difference inbetween a 125 and a bucket.

Fuck that

I like Ivans idea of the motards having thier own split class. that would be good, and it would also give the guys on the 250 motards a chance to win in thier own class