Exclusion of Motards from F1, F2 & F3: Good or bad?

[Ixion]

I'm interested in the foot out thing. I've done it often enough on dirt, but is there really any point to it on seal? I sort of imagine that if the bike did start sliding on seal and you tried to push it up with your foot, dirt fashion, the greater road to boot friction of tarmac would prolly rip your leg off if you were doing any sort of speed ? Does it really achive anything , or is it just "style" , cos it looks good (like 90% of the knee down stuff from the other camp). Genuine question, not rhetorical.

[scott411]

the reason i put my foot out is (and i have tried the knee down thing as well but i does not work for me)
i like to get as far forward on the bike as possible to put wait on the front wheel, when i tip the bike in their is no where for my leg to go as your footpeg is close to or in the tarmac, i do not jam my foot in the ground but let it skim on the tarmac, their are hardley any scuffing on my boots, in some corners your knee ends up above the handle bar, but with the layout of the bike and where the footpegs are i have no other choice with my current riding syle.

i have tried the knee down thing at taupo but i find it unnatural, this may be because i am used to putting my foot out mxing, when i am on a road bike your foot seems further back.

[Ixion]

Ah, that makes sense. So it's not trying to slide the bike round the foot, speedway style. I understand the need on those bikes to weight the front, and realistically it would be hard to corner a motard well without sliding forward. So, if the foot down isn't to pivot round, (and as someone noted, it doesn't really stick out any more than a knee), why is it perceived as such a big issue ?

[Brian d marge]

)
i like to get as far forward on the bike as possible to put wait on the front wheel, when i tip the bike in their is no where for my leg to go as your footpeg is close to or in the tarmac,
Snip
but with the layout of the bike and where the footpegs are i have no other choice with my current riding syle.
Snip
i have tried the knee down thing at taupo but i find it unnatural, this may be because i am used to putting my foot out mxing, when i am on a road bike your foot seems further back.

The reason is that the Mx bike geometry is different Ride a chopper and you will be climbing all over the bike to get the wieght to the front ,
and unfortuantly you cant drop the front enough because of the handlebars

Scott here has a vaild point the legs arent flapping around in the breeze , they are hanging off ala rossi style

But stopping mid corner to squirt to then next on ,,I would agree is bordering on the dangerous.

Maybe its not the foot off thing that is the problem , but as someone else suggested backing it in is the problem ...Elias backed it in BUT he used a constistant??? flowing line the corner wasnt squared off so he wasnt becoming a hazzard ??( ask rossi that ) !

Stephen

ps these comments ar written pre coffee and are there for subject to the WTF are you talking about Willis clause .

[scott411]

when i back it in (okay when i try) i find i am using my rear brake so i in right hand corners at least you still have your foot on the peg, i do not take my foot off untill i tip into the corner, most motard riders i have seen do the same thing

[Crasherfromwayback]

the reason i put my foot out is (and i have tried the knee down thing as well but i does not work for me)
i like to get as far forward on the bike as possible to put wait on the front wheel,

Yo Scott.....I know what you mean....and yeah...you're never gonna feel natural trying to get your 'knee down' on a motard...they're too high off the ground, and the placement of the footpegs doesn't help either!

But you're obviously from a dirt riding backround....so know how weight over the front helps them turn (as in front wheel traction)....so I hope this helps....tarmac is no different to the dirt.....it's just that the limits of traction are far higher! So if you get your weight right forward when road racing....you'll feel right at home, help the front grip, and be in the right spot to catch the front if it lets go! No need for you to have your feet off the pegs......here's a pic from Waaaaay back.....up the inside..... weight not even that far forward as I was still braking pretty hard.... plenty of front wheel feedback even under heavy trail braking...no sweat!

[TonyB]

Just as well you managed to avoid that giant keyboard... bit of a safety issue that thing

One point I would make is that many riders who use the foot out style get their weight on the wrong side of the bike. Yes this works on dirt but it doesn't make sense on tarmac. They are pretty much guaranteeing that their footpegs will hit the road. I believe that it is this inability or refusal to adapt to what is a totally different style of riding that is causing all the trouble.

Look at the photo above- he's got his bum halfway off the seat with his weight on the inside of the bike, where it should be for road racing, and he's able to keep his feet on the pegs.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Just as well you managed to avoid that giant keyboard... bit of a safety issue that thing

lol...yeah way back then....we used keyboards instead of haybales!
Guess my digital photography skills aren't so shit hot eh...

[slowpoke]

i like to get as far forward on the bike as possible to put wait on the front wheel, when i tip the bike in their is no where for my leg to go as your footpeg is close to or in the tarmac,

when i back it in (okay when i try) i find i am using my rear brake

Hmmmm, it's good to hear about the actual mechanics of what is going on with someone coming from an offroad background on to the tar.

Just a couple of observations that you may or may not find interesting. I'm a wannabe racer who hasn't raced too many times so I'd be interested in some more experienced opinions.

As a comparison: you push your weight FORWARD to load the front and use the REAR brake into a corner, while we use the FRONT brake which automatically loads the front end to the point where we actually push our weight BACK to keep the back end in contact with terra firma.

You push the bike down and inside going into a corner, keeping your body upright, while we keep the bike upright and drop our body weight down and inside.

Forgive my rambling but I'm just thinking about why these styles have evolved.

MX style: front end slides are usually terminal hence most braking is done with the rear wheel, and thrown sideways to build up a berm in front of the tyre giving greater stopping power and pointing bike towards next corner, uneven, unstable, constantly varying terrain makes it almost impossible to modulate maximum front end braking. The leg is a natural automatic stabiliser. The uneven terrain also has the bike bucking and wandering around hence the rider remains close to the centre of gravity in the middle of the bike and lets the bike move around under him.

Road style: due to the much greater traction and smooth surface maximum braking force is gained by using the front brake, which loads up the front, which allows more brake, which loads up the front more which allows more brake etc until basically the rear wheel can be off the ground, hence very little if any rear brake is used. In a way, if you are using any rear brake at all then you really aren't braking hard enough with the front. The steering head angle also steepens under heavy braking which aids turn in. To maximise corner speed the centre of gravity of rider and machine must be as low as possible with as large a tyre contact area as possible, so the rider hangs off low and inside to keep the bike as upright as possible on the fat part of the tyre. Also, the the suspension is designed to work in the vertical plane so to maximise traction over track imperfections the bike needs to be as upright as possible, another reason to keep the body weight low and inside when cornering.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure how it's supposed to work while I'm hunt'n and peck'n away at the keyboard, I just can't bloody remember any of it when I'm eyes bulging, white knuckled at the few times I get to the track......

Speaking of white knuckles, it would be interesting to do a little experiment: find a piece of tarmac somewhere and do a braking test. Do a few runs, 'cos I reckon it'll take a while to get your head around it. Use a fence post or something as a marker and brake as hard as you can using your back it in method with the rear brake then do the same thing using just the front brake (if you don't stoppie on a retard you ain't tryin'!)

[scott411]

because of the suspensin travel on a motard the front can dip quite a bit and still have the rear wheel on the ground, the front does most of the braking but i find the rear brake has some control as well., however the front controls about 95% of the slowing down

the different race postion comes form different back grounds adn riding styles, i have tried sitting back and keeping the bike more up right like crasher, but it feels unnatural and i am slower for it, i did race a 150 streetstock for a year back int eh tim gibbs series days and the dump the bike in MX style caused a crash in turn 1 at manfield when i ground out the expansion chamber om my KR150, so i learnt to hang off the bike a bit more, i have no such problem with ground clearence on my RMZ so i go back to the style that i know, it does not work to bad for me, 2 top 10's overall on a 450 in a field of 41 at wanganui is not a bad effort, (would have benn 3 if not for a flat tyre),

if you look at NZ quickest Motard rider Toby Summers he uses the same style, both him and i tried both ways at a track day at Taupo and we both came up with the fact it was faster for us this way, however on the same day Russell Josiah used the road race style as it felt more natural to him from his road racing background. it comes down to how you feel on the bike, i have no problems racing people using either style, (or for that matter on any bike) i don;t think either way is more dangerous than the other, both of us can lose the front wheel


and further up the this discussion a few people mentioned that the mx boys would get upset if someone shoehorned a big road engine into a mx frame and came out, we wouldn;t be upset, we would laugh at anyone that tried then hopefully they had the skill to hold a line when they got lapped, cause horsepower is not all important on dirt, and it just would not work (even the aprilla twin does not work in mx)

[slowpoke]

because of the suspensin travel on a motard the front can dip quite a bit and still have the rear wheel on the ground, the front does most of the braking but i find the rear brake has some control as well., however the front controls about 95% of the slowing down

the different race postion comes form different back grounds adn riding styles, i have tried sitting back and keeping the bike more up right like crasher, but it feels unnatural and i am slower for it, i did race a 150 streetstock for a year back int eh tim gibbs series days and the dump the bike in MX style caused a crash in turn 1 at manfield when i ground out the expansion chamber om my KR150, so i learnt to hang off the bike a bit more, i have no such problem with ground clearence on my RMZ so i go back to the style that i know, it does not work to bad for me, 2 top 10's overall on a 450 in a field of 41 at wanganui is not a bad effort, (would have benn 3 if not for a flat tyre),

if you look at NZ quickest Motard rider Toby Summers he uses the same style, both him and I tried both ways at a track day at Taupo and we both came up with the fact it was faster for us this way, however on the same day Russell Josiah used the road race style as it felt more natural to him from his road racing background. it comes down to how you feel on the bike, i have no problems racing people using either style, (or for that matter on any bike) i don;t think either way is more dangerous than the other, both of us can lose the front wheel


and further up the this discussion a few people mentioned that the mx boys would get upset if someone shoehorned a big road engine into a mx frame and came out, we wouldn;t be upset, we would laugh at anyone that tried then hopefully they had the skill to hold a line when they got lapped, cause horsepower is not all important on dirt, and it just would not work (even the aprilla twin does not work in mx)

Thanks Scott. If you're top ten at Wanga's then you're obviously doing something right...er, make that just about everything right if ya did it on a 450!

Wanga's would be ideal for a motard and I'm sure Nigel Bevin at Husaberg (Taupo) sponsored that infield section at Taupo, haha. Yep, I'd love it on my chook chaser but from experience it's a pain in the klacker on my old R1.

It's great watching blokes like yourself, Toby Summers and co, real poetry in motion with that level of bike control that most of us only dream of having but some of your/our less skilled colleagues are a bit of a worry. If a road rider is not so talented (ME!) we are just slow, but if a supermotard is not so talented then they tend to be slow AND a bit erratic. I think it's the erratic part that gets some people steamed up and makes it hard to commit to a pass.

[scott411]

i have no doubt the dirt section helped me alot at wanganui as i could make passes in their at any time, if i can get top 10 at pearoa i will be stoked, but its going to be a long battle down that front straight with a 4 speed 450, truth is i am just going to have to harden up and brake later at the end, watch for some demon braking moves from the #411 RMZ450

[Crasherfromwayback]

i have no doubt the dirt section helped me alot at wanganui as i could make passes in their at any time, if i can get top 10 at pearoa i will be stoked, but its going to be a long battle down that front straight with a 4 speed 450, truth is i am just going to have to harden up and brake later at the end, watch for some demon braking moves from the #411 RMZ450

You'll be needing to (if you're not already) run 15/36....try using spacers in your forks with slightly thicker oil, so the bike doesn't dive so much when you're on the picks. The limiting factor as you've said....is the back wheel coming off the ground, and that helps a shitload!

[scott411]

i have got 15 36 gearing, needs a lot of clutching off the line, the xtra 1000rpm form the yoshi black box is going to help i think, i ran 15 39 at wanganui,

are you coming up?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Nah mate...still not back racing after my nasty biff at Wanganui '05'...may yet still lose my right foot....the ankle's a fucking mess.
At least it's not my gearchange foot!

I will be back doing it again at some stage......hard to get it out of the system....even at my age!

Good luck mate...hope it all goes well.

Pete