NZ houses among least affordable

[NighthawkNZ:Me]

I was discussing this with a mate the other day.
For the younger ones, getting into a house must be a damn scary proposition with the piss-poor wages the average person earns.

Im not on a high wage and never is my partner, I very much doubt we can afford a house at present... even with the 100% loan schemes etc... btw Im not that young either... (not that old but not that young)

I'll tell yah how it goes by the end of the year...

[The Stranger:Me]

EDIT: And as Mr Finn observes, back then we had Building Codes , and council inspectors who were proper tradesmen and knew what they were doing. So the houses were good solid ones that have invariably lasted half a century alread, not the present leaky, jerry built ramshackle dog kennels we have today. Of course we didn't have property speculators making millions of dollars erecting the dog kennels, either.

Umm, we always have had building codes. Did back then, did in the leaky building era and still do now.

I really don't consider it right to lump a lot of blame on the inspectors. They are faced with some difficult issues. They work to the same building codes i.e flawed. Work can be changed after the inspector has signed off and realistically, should it be the responsibility of the inspector to get it right?

That would run counter to virtually every other check system in the building industry. Dover was an HVAC engineer, ask him if his company would accept liability for checking shop drawings, or if the installer screwed up, despite the fact that they will inspect the job as it progresses. Ditto a clerk of works and an architect - hell architects wont even accept responsibility for their own fuck ups, let alone anyone elses.

Criticism is often levelled at the builder. That said, who is the builder? For the past couple of hundred years a lot of non tradesmen/home handymen have built their own homes with little or no real problems. So is it necessarily a highly skilled profession? No it isn't. So why didn't we have leaky homes then?

What I want to know is this. How the hell has James Hardie got away virtually completely unscathed in the whole leaky building debacle?

[McJim]

Criticism is often levelled at the builder. That said, who is the builder? For the past couple of hundred years a lot of non tradesmen/home handymen have built their own homes with little or no real problems. So is it necessarily a highly skilled profession? No it isn't. So why didn't we have leaky homes then?

My ancesters have been building hooses with Central heating and insulation since 6000 years ago (see Scara Brae - Orkney) and yet in 2007 you STILL cannae get hooses o' that quality in New Zealand.

Just give me a half acre and access to a quarry - I'll build ma ain hoose ta!

[The Stranger:Me]

By Anne Gibson
NZ homes at their least affordable in 18 years

New Zealanders are paying some of the world's highest house prices compared to our incomes and Auckland ranks alongside London as one of the world's most expensive housing markets.

.

I understand that the councils are planning to implement a system whereby trades people must be registered for a particular job or trade in order to perform that task. For example, for a person to be able to fix a roof, they must be certified to fix a roof.

The theory is to stop cowboys riding into town shooting the roof down and riding off into the sunset, as roofers are want to do. Previosly all you needed to fix a roof was a ute and a good line on silicone, after all there is no fuck up which can't be fixed with silicone, just ask any roofer. Anything else required was simply initially borrowed from the builder then stolen on completion of the job.

So I gather that all these people will need to be insured i.e. you wont be certified by the council if you don't have insurance. That way the councils can cover their arses should we see a repeat of leaky building syndrome. So this is one big arse covering exercise.
Great you say, about time.
Well yes, but who is paying? Why you are of course.
That's ok, who minds paying a little extra for the protection of a good job? No - one right?
Well, ok, but how much. Some are putting estimates between 10%-15% extra. So that peace of mind may cost you between $20,000 and, well heaps.

I find this very interesting for several reasons.
Firstly, why now, we survived 200 yrs without it and had no problems (so to speak)? Perhaps we should simply adopt standards and practices used for the previous few hundred years.
Secondly, any competent home handyman has now (well soon) been excluded from doing his own alterations, despite doing so with no real problem in the past.
Thirdly, What will be the effect on the second hand market if we see 10%-15% increase in new house prices?

[Finn]

Just give me a half acre and access to a quarry - I'll build ma ain hoose ta!

Wear that bloody kilt again near me and I'll give yah a couple of ache'ers!

[McJim]

Wear that bloody kilt again near me and I'll give yah a couple of ache'ers!

Hmmm yeah - aching knee caps - I can see it now.

Easy answer Finn, if I'm wearing my kilt just don't look up!

[TLDV8]

For the past couple of hundred years a lot of non tradesmen/home handymen have built their own homes with little or no real problems. So is it necessarily a highly skilled profession? No it isn't. So why didn't we have leaky homes then?

Soldered roof joints/flashings..Over hung roof lines and window flashings which is why 40 year old group houses are still as sound as the day they were built.
What changed ?.Easy, imported BS plans and building material ideas all in the name of profit.
What followed was lack of skills again based on profit.Why make a longterm weatherproof joint when you can use silicone instead.
Like they do not have leaky homes in the likes of Canada etc for the same reason's,then the BS was imported here.

How do i know what has been happening,easy again,i helped build a house.

The basic structure was as sound as can be with the difference pine is used now verses rimu or similar yesteryear and glued and pressed chip is used for flooring (both rubbish),then the roof ($12000 in 1996)was sealed with silicone,then the windows (also $12000) were sealed with silicone......not to mention the longrun roofing made of tinfoil !!!

Then they started building on concrete bases so the next dilema is cracked floors with no real way to fix them longterm.
As far as i am concerned Kiwidom was sold down the river.
That being, what had worked here for generations was slowly eroded in the name of profit.

A modest but solid group house (3 bedroom/wooden/tin roof) in South Auckland would have sold for around $15000 in 1973,rising to around $43000 in the mid 1980's,now that house would be worth around $300000.
It will still be standing when these modern overpriced POS have long crumpled.
How !@#$ed is it when something old including so called technology can outlast something 40 years newer including technology again........ Profit at any Cost with no Accountibility which includes those who lowered the building codes and material specs.

[MyGSXF:Me]

A headline in the Nelson paper a couple of days ago, said that the median house price in Richmond had hit $400,000.

[Finn]

A headline in the Nelson paper a couple of days ago, said that the median house price in Richmond had hit $400,000.

That's the whole street price isn't it?

[Ixion]

Umm, we always have had building codes. Did back then, did in the leaky building era and still do now.

I really don't consider it right to lump a lot of blame on the inspectors. They are faced with some difficult issues. They work to the same building codes i.e flawed. Work can be changed after the inspector has signed off and realistically, should it be the responsibility of the inspector to get it right?

That would run counter to virtually every other check system in the building industry. Dover was an HVAC engineer, ask him if his company would accept liability for checking shop drawings, or if the installer screwed up, despite the fact that they will inspect the job as it progresses. Ditto a clerk of works and an architect - hell architects wont even accept responsibility for their own fuck ups, let alone anyone elses.

Criticism is often levelled at the builder. That said, who is the builder? For the past couple of hundred years a lot of non tradesmen/home handymen have built their own homes with little or no real problems. So is it necessarily a highly skilled profession? No it isn't. So why didn't we have leaky homes then?

What I want to know is this. How the hell has James Hardie got away virtually completely unscathed in the whole leaky building debacle?

I beg to differ.

Carpentry is certainly a skilled trade. My fingers still remember the painful lessons of its acquistion.

The reason that Kiwi handymen have built houses successfully is simply that, for several hundred years, those skills were some of the repetoire that a Kiwi bloke was expected to master in his teens, even if he did not intend to enter the trade. It was a poor apology for a bloke who couldnt build a simple house or extension, at need, no matter what his actual job was. Fathers taught the skills to their sons in the time honoured fashion.

And the nature of the building inspection has changed. In the past the inspectors task was to make sure that the builder was doing the job in a tradesman-like fashion. And both the inspector and the builder knew exactly what that was. Certainly there were many tricks to try to fool the building inspectors. And the inspectors, from a lifetime in the trade, knew them too, and didn't intend to be fooled.He didn't need a lot of paper and certifications. He KNEW how to build a decent building and he expected the builder to do the same.

Nowdays the inspection is a paper based process. Have the necessary bits of paper been filled in, have the "standards" been complied with. If they have then the inspector must sign it off, even if he knows that the work is not up to scratch - as many of them will know, since they are for the most part still ex-tradesmen.

I remember, long before we heard of leaky buildings, when the first McMansions were going up in Howick, my wife and I went out to look at some of them. I was horrified at some of the things I saw, and told her that no way would we ever buy such a house. She was sceptical, and went back with her father, a retired builder. He was even more scathing. And the quality then was not so bad as it later became. I predicted then that Auckland would have a colossal problem in the future - and then I didn't know about the imbecile decision to allow use of untreated pine in framing. That decision alone shows the utter corruption of the system, the government agreed to allow a material that had been universally recognised as unsuitable for half a century, simply because it would mean bigger profits for James Hardie.

I would strongly discourage anyone from buying ANY house (or apartment) at all built since about 1980 by the "building corporations" . They will all have to be pulled down sooner or later, and mostly sooner. The building inspectors knew about the problems, of course, as did the tradesmen. But most of the houses built nowdays are not built by jobbing builders they are built by corporations who are not interested in good workmanship.

[MyGSXF:Me]

That's the whole street price isn't it?

Aaaahhhhhhhhhh....... NO!! that's just for ONE ferkin house!!!

[The Stranger:Me]

I beg to differ.

Carpentry is certainly a skilled trade. My fingers still remember the painful lessons of its acquistion.

No slur on carpenters was intended, I too am a carpenter by trade as is my father and as was his father - wonder what his father did. My son is a carpentry apprentice. I am amazed at how the whole apprenticeship thing has changed. Baring out your comment about paper based, all his work is out of NZS 3604, no actual carpentry skill teaching is involved, it is expected this will be acquired on site, where little actually exists due to the apprenticeship system previously in place.

My point however is that Joe average can in fact knock up a reasonably watertight dwelling. Many of these I walk into and cringe and the workmanship or lack thereof, however quality of finish is not mine to judge. If someone is happy with bent walls, poor mitres, ill fitting doors etc etc that is their prerogative.

[Finn]

Easy answer Finn, if I'm wearing my kilt just don't look up!

Is that the milky way near uranus? Homo.

[Guitana]

My ancesters have been building hooses with Central heating and insulation since 6000 years ago (see Scara Brae - Orkney) and yet in 2007 you STILL cannae get hooses o' that quality in New Zealand.

Just give me a half acre and access to a quarry - I'll build ma ain hoose ta!

I'll have to agree with ya McJim!! My family came from Lennoxtoon ootside of Glasgee and the old families stone hoose still stands today almost three hundred years old lets see one of those Gin palaces in Auckland last that long!
I think not!!!
Most Kiwi homes are falling down around their owners ears after twenty years .

[McJim]

Is that the milky way near uranus? Homo.

Homo Sapien I am monkey boy, What of it?

I've rediscoverd Milky ways since I became a dad - tasty but you have to eat a shitload to satisfy your hunger.

I remember Lennoxtown - last stop before going over the Campsie Fells - some quaint and picturesque houses there although there's also a 1950's council estate there too!

I used to live in Culross, Fife - most of the houses there were built circa 1400.