Bloody cyclists

[Wolf]

how is that so hard for you to understand??

I suspect he truly believes that cyclists can do no wrong. The onus is upon everyone else to accommodate them.

[jrandom]

[Wolf]

[justsomeguy]

Back in school when two people cared so deeply about what another specific person said or thought, regardless of reality - we'd tease them as having a crush on each other.

So ladies, slappers, gentlemen, Dover and Boomer - allow me

Forkoil has a crush on Woooooooolllffffff

Wolf has a crush Fooooooooooooooooorkoil

Naaaaa naa -- na na naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[bikemike]

KLOWN said

I dont have a problem with cyclists going through reds never said I did. I also said I don't have a problem with cyclists bunching when i'm on my bike cause its easy to go round them, only when in a cage AND they don't bother making room I'm more than happy to wait i don't expect instantaneous action but if they continue to make themselves a rolling road block I take excpetion.

This expresses the nub of what you are ALL getting your kegs in a twist over; namely, that the problem comes down to one of courtesy, and not law. It's not really about the law as some of you are banging on about, all road users are breaking the law here and there, knowingly or not, flagrantly or not. Most motorcyclists speed for example(ooh really!), many many cyclists filter left on red or even go through when sensors not activated, and car drivers are parking on wrong side of road, on the pavement, and speeding.

Then there's dangerous and illegal stuff, scooter riders with cycle helmets, riding in cycle lanes, car drivers speeding up when being overtaken, motorcyclists pulling wheelies in traffic, cyclists riding with no lights.

All groups break some laws, so you can't base your umbrage on that, all groups do stupid stuff so your general offence can't be based on that either.

What we have here is a specific issue of courtesy, regardless of specific safety or legal issues. I personally think the bunching itself is not in principle an unsafe practice, though I'd need balls of steel to do it sometimes. However, on the other hand, I agree with MisterD:

I personally think that's safer than trying to pull into single file and encourage idiots to squeeze through against oncoming vehicles. If a motorcyclist or cager begrudges 30 seconds out of their life then my response is going to be "Fuck you".

You can't really legislate or account for courtesy. It's a sociocultural thing, and an education thing, and, it cuts both ways.

For example, keeping left means drive on the left. It means drive in the leftmost lane, and it means keep well out of the way of opposing traffic on unlaned roadways. It doesn't mean squeeze your ill-thinking arse into the gutter so the V8 can slice past you. It doesn't mean keep left in the lane so others can share your lane. However, sometimes it might be practical and courteous to do so, and some aspects of the code allow for that. It's the call of them in front to change their chosen course or position to comply with the code when it's safe.

Filtering/lane splitting on a motorcycle is one of the benefits and joys for many. Save's congestion and pollution, saves time and gives you clear road ahead. Sometimes it's not safe, and sometimes it's not legal. Hence the unending debates about whether it's safe, and if it's legal. Sometimes it's downright inconsiderate. The reason some do it and have no problems is that they do it safely and considerately. Likewise, most coppers use discretion on any law breaking in that situation based on safety and courtesy. Sure you get some that will say it's illegal, and pull you up in principle, even if you are within the law, being safe and being courteous. But the problem there is not one of legality or safety, it's again a courtesy thing - with the police failing in that case.

And another thing, no specific case proves a rule, or a point. Just because a cyclist could pull a manoeuvre that causes a 20 car pile up and multiple deaths doesn't mean that cycling or cyclists are as much a hazard on the road as motorcyclists, or cars. It's self evident that there is a hierarchy of personal risk and exposure versus a hierarchy of third party risk and exposure going the other way, from pedestrians up to the road trains. The bigger and badder the more training, regulation, licensing restrictions, safety interventions, taxation and so on. It's common sense.

Don't ask for cyclists to be licensed or wof'd, that's daft. As a human powered vehicle there IS a greater privilege there than there is for a bloody great logging truck. The truckie and company have to buy their way onto the network to mitigate the risk, costs and responsibilities they represent. So they should. We have a right to the road as pedestrians and cyclists before motorcyclists, cars, vans, buses and trucks.

As motorcyclists we should recognise that and give a little latitude, and have a little patience with those more exposed than ourselves. If it really is a safety issue, pull over, dial *555, otherwise accept the reality and stop banging on about absolutes, please.

Declaration. I'm a pedestrian, cyclists, motorcyclist and car driver. Jeesh, aren't we all.....

[Kickaha]

The message I get from you, loud and clear (you've been doing a fair bit of "shouting down", yourself) is that any behaviour by a cyclist is justified, there are no people cycling irresponsibly anywhere in NZ, all bunches of cyclists anywhere and any time are clubs legitimately practising and that the law is a hinderance that you are permitted to ignore as you see fit.
.

pretty much the same arguement a lot of motorcyclists on her use to justify their behaviour

[James Deuce]

pretty much the same arguement a lot of motorcyclists on her use to justify their behaviour

Yeah, but Wolf isn't one of them, so I reckon he is one of the few that can put his hand up and make this argument stick.

[MSTRS:Me]

... those more exposed than ourselves.....

Great post.
But I subscribe to the view that the greater the personal exposure (to physical harm, say) then the greater the onus on ensuring that behaviour is not contributing to that risk. And when (anyone) is being a little/lot naughty, then the onus should be on them to ensure that it is not the less vulnerable's responsibilty to do the 'right' thing

[Wolf]

pretty much the same arguement a lot of motorcyclists on her use to justify their behaviour

Yep, and I've stated my opinion on such motorcyclists as well as their counterparts in cars, vans, SUVs, buses, trucks etc.

The words "Fucking temporary New Zealander" have been know to pass my lips. Unlike some people, however, I use the words about specific bikers not about every motorcyclist I see. The term has also been used to described specific other road users and pedestrians.

No, I'm not a perfect rider and I do make screw-ups from time time time when my head's up in the clouds (well, up somewhere, anyway) that occasionally earn me a blast of a horn or yelled abuse which I consider a "back to reality" call. Such is life, we none of us are perfect.

These days I strive to be a careful and considerate rider for reasons of my own safety (can't support wife and kids if permanently crippled or dead) and out of consideration for others on the road.

In my younger days my mates and I used to act up on the motorbikes "because we could" but we were under no illusion that we were entitled to do so - we knew we were doing wrong and that there would be a variety of richly deserved consequences if something went sour: the very least of which was other people would rightfully think we were a pack of fucking wankers.

These days I try to be a good ambassador of our lifestyle/sport so that people will see me and say "OK, not all motorcyclists are arrogant temporary New Zealanders" but in my earlier days I had no call to get upset with people that said "motorcyclists are fucking dangerous" and no reason to justify our stupidity as "our right".

[Wolf]

Great post.
But I subscribe to the view that the greater the personal exposure (to physical harm, say) then the greater the onus on ensuring that behaviour is not contributing to that risk. And when (anyone) is being a little/lot naughty, then the onus should be on them to ensure that it is not the less vulnerable's responsibilty to do the 'right' thing

It was a great post, but I concur - the onus is upon the vulnerable (myself as a motorcyclist included) is to take due care. These days I ride mindful that I am vulnerable and take care to ride carefully.

It wasn't always so: Looking back over the years I see I've progressed from having lots of accidents (admittedly only a couple involved other vehicles) through extolling the virtues of motorcycles and their ability to avoid accidents (by going places you can't take a car) to seldom being in a position where i have to avoid accidents by virtue of riding to the conditions and being mindful of hazards.

Or in other words: from "Oh fuck! That hurts" through "whew, that was fucking close; good thing I could get my bike through that tiny gap" to "that could have been nasty; I knew that bastard was going to do that."
I don't trust that the other road users have the skills to avoid me if I do something careless or stupid - they may still be in the "Oh fuck" stage of their driving/riding life. I don't trust other road users to be predictable in their actions (which is why I seldom lane-split and am extremely cautious on the rare occasions I am able to legally do so (very rare - Hamilton traffic seems to love hugging (if not straddling) the centre line).

My "Driving Tales 1" page off my home page has anecdotes of some of the stupid things I've done in the past and recounts some of the close calls if anyone is interested in reading. You will note, however, that I'm honest about how stupid my actions were.

I probably survived to the age of thirty more by good luck than good management but these days I don't have as much trust in luck and take a more "managed" approach. These days I seldom get beeped, yelled or gestured at and I haven't had even a close call in ages (not counting dropping the bike onto myself whilst wheeling it backwards) - I like it that way: less stress, less grey hairs and I live to enjoy my family and my riding.

[justsomeguy]

Cyclist killed in Taupo crash

By LEIGH VAN DER STOEP - Sunday Star Times | Sunday, 4 March 2007


A week-long campaign encouraging more New Zealanders to ride bikes ended with two cyclists being killed and another in hospital.

A holidaying husband and wife were yesterday knocked off their mountain bikes by a bakery delivery van while cycling along Spa Rd, Taupo.
Hilary Evelyn Haward, 57, died at the scene. Her husband Brinley Haward, 58, was taken to Taupo Hospital with moderate injuries, then transferred to Rotorua Hospital.
Police said the Havelock North couple - camping in Taupo - were watching the start of the Ironman competition, a popular annual triathlon event. They were cycling back to their campground when they were hit.
On Friday afternoon, a 74-year-old Matamata man was killed when a 4WD struck him while he cycled his usual SH27 route. A Westpac Rescue Helicopter airlifted him to Waikato Hospital and he died in the emergency department.
Cycling Advocates' Network chairman Robert Ibell said the deaths were a "sad irony" as National Bikewise Week ends today. The Taupo crash was particularly poignant as last week's Bike Taupo campaign focused on safety for cyclists.
Police continued to investigate both crashes yesterday. It was not known whether charges would be laid.
Taupo police were interviewing the driver of the Fresh Bake van which struck the married couple from behind.
Senior Sergeant Murray Hamilton said it was unclear what had caused the accident - "It's a good section of road."
The Hawards both had helmets on and were riding in single file, he said. Ibell said this "unfortunate weekend for cyclists" served as a reminder to drivers to be more aware of cyclists.
"They should remember that some vehicles can be smaller than cars."
Fresh Bake owner Simon Joyner said the driver was shaken but not injured.
The accident did not affect the Ironman event, a spokesperson said.
Matamata police said initial reports the 74-year-old's death was due to a hit-and-run were incorrect. The accident happened near Blandford Lodge, a well-known equine farm belonging to supermodel Kylie Bax's family.
Farm manager Casey Dando said six locals gathered around the man as he lay injured in the road. A crew of Works Infrastructure road staff saw the accident and secured the section of road using cones and stop-go signs.

[Max Preload]

the tactics involved in cycle racing mean you do not always stay rideing as some motorists would like, out of there way

It's not the way we'd like. It's the rules of the road. Keep the fuck left and have some consideration for motorists.

The only solution to stop this problem would be ban cycle racing from public roads.

Unless they're preceeded by cars bearing waarnings, it sounds like a plan to me.

There is a lot of predjudice towards cyclists.

Brought on by their own arrogance.

Cycling is an awesome sport

No, it's not. It's mind numbingly dull and generally the domain of braindead retards (every sport bicyclist I've ever met has been pretty dopey). Besides, it is demeaning for anyone over the age of 15 to ride a bicycle - they could be operating a motor vehicle.

[Wolf]

[marty]

i have read and followed this with some interets, being both a motorcyclist, and a competitive cyclist. i have now come to the conclusion that the non-cycling motorcylcists on this thread are a bunch of fucking arrogant cunts, and if i was ever subjected to the type of behaviours being promoted by some of the motorcylists in here, for no other reason than what seems to be an almighty-than-thou fucktard attitude that cannot be delayed for 7 fucking seconds, that when i saw your bike parked at the pub, you better fucking make sure you know how to pick it up off the ground.

what REALLY fucks me off, is that a 3m wide tractor at 40km/h blocking the road for miles, doesn't engender the same aggression as a couple of cyclists. i know why though, cause you're fucking scared of it, and you know that YOU'LL get hurt if you fuck with it, so you whimper away.

[James Deuce]

jeepers Marty say what you really think!