Thinking of getting vaccinated?

[flyingcrocodile46]

The difference is - I first rebutted your pathetic argument (with sources), THEN called you a fuckwit for believing it. As opposed to just refusing to present evidence to support the retarded claims.

However - I am not defending an unsubstantiated conspiracy - I am simply saying that the Data does not match up with the Hypothesis presented by the Cult of Conspiracy. Especially when you factor in that behind the thin veneer is the same old Conspiracy Claptrap "Vaccines are bad", "Big Pharma is bad", "Science is bad" - just repackaged, ready by swallowed hook line and sinker by its legion of devoted followers.


Again! The classic misdirect and vain attempt to gain a semblance of traction in your own confused mind. The point of the original posts was to highlight the massive over-hyping and hysteria that was so lacking in any real substantive basis. Your imagination constructed the illusions you allege to others.

I don't know if you are willfully or ignorantly being such a nonconstructive obfuscating cock blocker, or if you are just an insatiable cock sucking attention whore. Frankly, i don't care. Consider yourself relegated to the 'Oscar & Ed' bin. (i.e don't look to see me responding to your time wasting lip pursing in future as you are a waste of space and time).

[TheDemonLord]

Again! The classic misdirect and vain attempt to grain a semblance of traction in your own confused mind. The point of the original posts was to highlight the massive over-hyping and hysteria that was so lacking in any real substantive basis. Your imagination constructed the illusions you allege to others.

I don't know if you are willfully or ignorantly being such a nonconstructive obfuscating cock blocker, or if you are just an insatiable cock sucking attention whore. Frankly, i don't care. Consider yourself relegated to the 'Oscar & Ed' bin. (i.e don't look to see me responding to your time wasting lip pursing in future as you are a waste of space and time).

That is a whole lot of Cock in your post - I think you might be in the same closet as Katman.

Point or not of the original post - you STILL haven't provided any sources or Data, even though I cited the last 5 years of reported cases from a medical Journal. You talk about Imaginations and Illusions, yet miss the Irony

[TheDemonLord]

So what exactly did Mother Teresa actually 'invent'?

Well, for a start The Missionaries of Charity.

But I'm glad you are still hellbent on changing the subject - each time you do, it just proves that you can't back up the shit you regurgitate.

[bogan]

Consider yourself relegated to the 'Oscar & Ed' bin.

Only an irrational fool would put them in the same bin...

As for TDL, we all know you'll be responding to him in future, he has too many insightful questions to debunk your indoctrination efforts for you to let go un-ad-hominemed.

[jonbuoy]

Again! The classic misdirect and vain attempt to gain a semblance of traction in your own confused mind. The point of the original posts was to highlight the massive over-hyping and hysteria that was so lacking in any real substantive basis. Your imagination constructed the illusions you allege to others.

I don't know if you are willfully or ignorantly being such a nonconstructive obfuscating cock blocker, or if you are just an insatiable cock sucking attention whore. Frankly, i don't care. Consider yourself relegated to the 'Oscar & Ed' bin. (i.e don't look to see me responding to your time wasting lip pursing in future as you are a waste of space and time).

Wow, got to wonder - if this is how worked up you get from a differing opinion on the internet how do you manage real problems in the real world?!

[TheDemonLord]

Wow, got to wonder - if this is how worked up you get from a differing opinion on the internet how do you manage real problems in the real world?!

When you realise that the reason for them getting so worked up is because I challenged their beliefs in their Religion (Conspiracy Theories) with such things as Facts and Logic (which like all faiths, make them uncomfortable) - it starts to make much more sense

[Ocean1]

Melb school excludes unvaccinated kids

http://www.msn.com/en-nz/health/medical/melb-school-excludes-unvaccinated-kids/ar-BBpQo2m?ocid=spartandhp

As well they orta.

[Katman]

http://www.collective-evolution.com/2016/04/12/lead-developer-of-hpv-vaccines-comes-clean-to-warn-parents-young-girls/

[Banditbandit]

http://starecat.com/content/wp-content/uploads/autism-spectrum-people-are-over-represented-in-research-science-but-that-means-autism-causes-vaccines.jpg

[TheDemonLord]

A Witty Picture


Best.
Comment.
Ever.

[Paul in NZ]

Best.
Comment.
Ever.

I agree - too funny

[Oscar]

http://www.collective-evolution.com/2016/04/12/lead-developer-of-hpv-vaccines-comes-clean-to-warn-parents-young-girls/

A simple google search proves this to be a lie.

Even Snopes has it: http://www.snopes.com/medical/drugs/gardasil.asp




…grossly misrepresents what Dr. Harper actually said. Dr. Harper has expressed concerns such as how long protection from vaccines such as Gardasil will last (which is not a safety issue, but rather an issue of whether the expected results of an HPV immunization program will justify the financial costs), and whether the marketing of Gardasil might lead some women to avoid taking other STD-preventing precautions, but she has never said that Gardasil "doesn't work," "wasn't tested," or was "dangerous”...

How come you (claim to) know such a lot about vaccines, but don't have the brains to check sources?

[Edbear]

A simple google search proves this to be a lie.

Even Snopes has it:

How come you (claim to) know such a lot about vaccines, but don't have the brains to check sources?

Don't you get it? It was on a conspiracy site, it HAS to be true, or they wouldn't post it... :msn-wink:

[Katman]

Even Snopes has it:

@ Snopes :killingme

[Edbear]

@ Snopes :killingme

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/gardasil-researcher-speaks-out/

How about the source..? Nah, the Conspiracy Theorists know better than she does, eh?

[Katman]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/gardasil-researcher-speaks-out/

How about the source..? Nah, the Conspiracy Theorists know better than she does, eh?

Did you even read that article?

[Edbear]

Did you even read that article?

Of course I did, days ago on another forum, did you?

[Katman]

Of course I did, days ago on another forum, did you?

Were you wasted when you read it?

[mashman]

A simple google search proves this to be a lie.

How come you (claim to) know such a lot about vaccines, but don't have the brains to check sources?

Proves what to be a lie?

I didn't see that claim in this instance. Perhaps you'd be so kind as to post it up?

Making someone's mind up for them is somewhat considered bad form and putting words in their mouths, well, only a weak minded fool would consider such.

[Edbear]

"Dr. Harper agrees with Merck and the CDC that Gardasil is safe for most girls and women.

Merck and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention maintain Gardasil is safe and effective, and that adequate warnings are provided, cautioning about soreness at the injection site and risk of fainting after vaccination. A new study in the Journal of the American Medical Association found while the overall risk of side effects appears to be comparable to other vaccines, Gardasil has a higher incidence of blood clots reported. Merck says it continues to have confidence in Gardasil's safety profile. Merck also says it's looking into cases of ALS, commonly known as Lou Gehrig's Disease, reported after vaccination. ALS is a progressive neurodegenerative disease that attacks motor neurons in the brain and spinal cord. Merck and the CDC say there is currently no evidence that Gardasil caused ALS in the cases reported. Merck is also monitoring the number of deaths reported after Gardasil: at least 32. Merck and CDC says it's unclear whether the deaths were related to the vaccine, and that just because patients died after the shots doesn't mean the shots were necessarily to blame.

According to Dr. Harper, assessing the true adverse event risk of Gardasil, and comparing it to the risk of cervical cancer can be tricky and complex. "The number of women who die from cervical cancer in the US every year is small but real. It is small because of the success of the Pap screening program."

She also worries that Merck's aggressive marketing of the vaccine may have given women a false sense of security. "The future expectations women hold because they have received free doses of Gardasil purchased by philanthropic foundations, by public health agencies or covered by insurance is the true threat to cervical cancer in the future. Should women stop Pap screening after vaccination, the cervical cancer rate will actually increase per year. Should women believe this is preventive for all cancers - something never stated, but often inferred by many in the population-- a reduction in all health care will compound our current health crisis. Should Gardasil not be effective for more than 15 years, the most costly public health experiment in cancer control will have failed miserably."

CDC continues to recommend Gardasil for girls and young women. The agency says the vaccine's benefits outweigh its risks and that it is an important tool in fighting a serious cancer." [END QUOTES].

All medications, carry the risk of side effects and should be chosen after qualified consultation by the patient.

In my family history as far back as I can go, nobody has ever had a more serious complication than localised soreness or a brief feeling of sickness. All of my immediate family and whanau have been regularly immunised as per the medical recommendations. No significant side effects beyond what I have said. None of us have ever suffered a serious illness or death, either, by contracting the reason for the vaccine.

I, and my children, will not send the kids to school or Kindy, were they not vaccinated and were exposed to other unvaccinated children.

Your choice, for sure, but I would rather believe the qualified medics and scientists over conspiracy theorists.

[mashman]

"Dr. Harper agrees with Merck and the CDC that Gardasil is safe for most girls and women.

Merck and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention maintain Gardasil is safe and effective, and that adequate warnings are provided, cautioning about soreness at the injection site and risk of fainting after vaccination. A new study in the Journal of the American Medical Association found while the overall risk of side effects appears to be comparable to other vaccines, Gardasil has a higher incidence of blood clots reported. Merck says it continues to have confidence in Gardasil's safety profile. Merck also says it's looking into cases of ALS, commonly known as Lou Gehrig's Disease, reported after vaccination. ALS is a progressive neurodegenerative disease that attacks motor neurons in the brain and spinal cord. Merck and the CDC say there is currently no evidence that Gardasil caused ALS in the cases reported. Merck is also monitoring the number of deaths reported after Gardasil: at least 32. Merck and CDC says it's unclear whether the deaths were related to the vaccine, and that just because patients died after the shots doesn't mean the shots were necessarily to blame.

According to Dr. Harper, assessing the true adverse event risk of Gardasil, and comparing it to the risk of cervical cancer can be tricky and complex. "The number of women who die from cervical cancer in the US every year is small but real. It is small because of the success of the Pap screening program."

She also worries that Merck's aggressive marketing of the vaccine may have given women a false sense of security. "The future expectations women hold because they have received free doses of Gardasil purchased by philanthropic foundations, by public health agencies or covered by insurance is the true threat to cervical cancer in the future. Should women stop Pap screening after vaccination, the cervical cancer rate will actually increase per year. Should women believe this is preventive for all cancers - something never stated, but often inferred by many in the population-- a reduction in all health care will compound our current health crisis. Should Gardasil not be effective for more than 15 years, the most costly public health experiment in cancer control will have failed miserably."

CDC continues to recommend Gardasil for girls and young women. The agency says the vaccine's benefits outweigh its risks and that it is an important tool in fighting a serious cancer." [END QUOTES].

All medications, carry the risk of side effects and should be chosen after qualified consultation by the patient.

In my family history as far back as I can go, nobody has ever had a more serious complication than localised soreness or a brief feeling of sickness. All of my immediate family and whanau have been regularly immunised as per the medical recommendations. No significant side effects beyond what I have said. None of us have ever suffered a serious illness or death, either, by contracting the reason for the vaccine.

I, and my children, will not send the kids to school or Kindy, were they not vaccinated and were exposed to other unvaccinated children.

Your choice, for sure, but I would rather believe the qualified medics and scientists over conspiracy theorists.

What's the conspiracy Ed?

[mashman]

...

Your choice, for sure, but I would rather believe the qualified medics and scientists over conspiracy theorists.

What's the conspiracy Ed?

[Edbear]

What's the conspiracy Ed?


Okay, maybe the anti-vaccination movement spreading misinformation and claiming that the drug companies are manipulating things behind the scenes. Claiming all manner of conspiracies, from deliberately making people sick to genocide.

[mashman]

Okay, maybe the anti-vaccination movement spreading misinformation and claiming that the drug companies are manipulating things behind the scenes. Claiming all manner of conspiracies, from deliberately making people sick to genocide.

Funny, I didn't read anyone saying anything about anti-vaccination... just raising concerns as per your CBS link.

Hardly conspiracy theorists (http://www.naturalnews.com/049256_Gardasil_HPV_vaccine_Spain.html)

[Edbear]

Funny, I didn't read anyone saying anything about anti-vaccination... just raising concerns as per your CBS link.

[/B]

Laying a complaint is one thing, the outcome is the main thing. We'll have to wait until the case is resolved to find out the truth.

I prefer to wait for the full details to come out before making a judgement.

[Katman]

I prefer to wait for the full details to come out before making a judgement.

I think a lot of people would like to be made aware of the full details regarding risks versus benefits too.

[TheDemonLord]

I think a lot of people would like to be made aware of the full details regarding risks versus benefits too.

But do those people have the adequate knowledge/experience/understanding/logical faculties to be able to adequately evaluate the full details of said risk?

I'm happy to agree on the principle of this point but I must disagree with the practical application of this point.

People have routinely shown to be horrendously bad at weighing probability of risk (myself included) - we might refuse to get on a ferry because of an irrational fear of it sinking (and death by drowning), yet will happily smoke ciggarettes and eat greasy food to excess.

Everyone here who rides a motorbike is a testament to that fact - we do something voluntarily that we know to be less safe than its alternatives. The difference is however, if I ride like a twat on my bike, I'll most likely kill myself, in rare situations, I might kill a few other people. Infectious diseases on the other hand have the potential for one person to infect multiple people (Typhoid Mary springs to mind)

[mashman]

Laying a complaint is one thing, the outcome is the main thing. We'll have to wait until the case is resolved to find out the truth.

I prefer to wait for the full details to come out before making a judgement.

But you've already made the judgement that it's conspiracy theorists that are pushing the argument.

"In all of the clinical trials with GARDASIL 9 subjects were evaluated for new medical conditions
potentially indicative of a systemic autoimmune disorder. In total, 2.2% (351/15,703) of GARDASIL 9
recipients and 3.3% (240/7,378) of GARDASIL recipients reported new medical conditions potentially
indicative of systemic autoimmune disorders, which were similar to rates reported following GARDASIL,
AAHS control, or saline placebo in historical clinical trials. "

[Edbear]

I think a lot of people would like to be made aware of the full details regarding risks versus benefits too.

That's where a good GP comes in. Mine always discusses the benefits and side effects of any medication he recommends. He's always proven to be up to date with the latest information, or will offer to research any questions I have that he can't answer immediately.

In hospital, they must inform you of all potential risks, and that's where I have, at times, wished they didn't... :shutup:

[Edbear]

But you've already made the judgement that it's conspiracy theorists that are pushing the argument.

"In all of the clinical trials with GARDASIL 9 subjects were evaluated for new medical conditions
potentially indicative of a systemic autoimmune disorder. In total, 2.2% (351/15,703) of GARDASIL 9
recipients and 3.3% (240/7,378) of GARDASIL recipients reported new medical conditions potentially
indicative of systemic autoimmune disorders, which were similar to rates reported following GARDASIL,
AAHS control, or saline placebo in historical clinical trials. "

No, that's because on this thread, we are dealing with conspiracy theorists. Apologies if you misunderstood.

[mashman]

No, that's because on this thread, we are dealing with conspiracy theorists. Apologies if you misunderstood.

No, you're dealing with people who have made a choice in regards to HPV given the knowledge that's currently available. That some of us can be tarred as conspiracy theorists does not detract from the point at hand... irrespective of what you say. Walk a mile etc...

Nothing to say about the quote I posted? Oh and in that quote, note the use of the word NEW. No mention of existing known conditions. Now then, tell me about safety again.

[Edbear]

No, you're dealing with people who have made a choice in regards to HPV given the knowledge that's currently available. That some of us can be tarred as conspiracy theorists does not detract from the point at hand... irrespective of what you say. Walk a mile etc...

Nothing to say about the quote I posted? Oh and in that quote, note the use of the word NEW. No mention of existing known conditions. Now then, tell me about safety again.

"In all of the clinical trials with GARDASIL 9 subjects were evaluated for new medical conditions
potentially indicative of a systemic autoimmune disorder. In total, 2.2% (351/15,703) of GARDASIL 9
recipients and 3.3% (240/7,378) of GARDASIL recipients reported new medical conditions potentially
indicative of systemic autoimmune disorders, which were similar to rates reported following GARDASIL,
AAHS control, or saline placebo in historical clinical trials. "

This is what I mean. You can ignore relevant facts in the data and make an adverse judgement. The fact that a saline placebo produced the same results, is rather significant, no?

Coupled with the very low percentage that would probably be below the margin of error for the study, and that it was recorded of anecdotal opinions from the recipients, not medically tested.

[Katman]

But do those people have the adequate knowledge/experience/understanding/logical faculties to be able to adequately evaluate the full details of said risk?

So why do you think Dr Harper (and many other qualified specialists) questions the risk-versus-benefit profile of Gardasil?

[mashman]

"In all of the clinical trials with GARDASIL 9 subjects were evaluated for new medical conditions
potentially indicative of a systemic autoimmune disorder. In total, 2.2% (351/15,703) of GARDASIL 9
recipients and 3.3% (240/7,378) of GARDASIL recipients reported new medical conditions potentially
indicative of systemic autoimmune disorders, which were similar to rates reported following GARDASIL,
AAHS control, or saline placebo in historical clinical trials. "

This is what I mean. You can ignore relevant facts in the data and make an adverse judgement. The fact that a saline placebo produced the same results, is rather significant, no?

Coupled with the very low percentage that would probably be below the margin of error for the study, and that it was recorded of anecdotal opinions from the recipients, not medically tested.

Is that because Saline is considered to be benign?

Really? Someone has to validate that the medical condition is new. Nah, let's just take the persons word for it that have a new autoimmune condition.

Consider that 0% would be affected by any Gardasil issues if they didn't have it v's "The benefit to public health is nothing, there is no reduction in cervical cancers, they are just postponed, unless the protection lasts for at least 15 years, and over 70% of all sexually active females of all ages are vaccinated." i.e. 2.2%, or perhaps 3.3% or perhaps something entirely different given that there are still concerns being raised about it and not all cases have been "connected" to the vaccine.

0% chance sounds good to me for my kids. I'm not too worried should they develop cervical cancer down the line given the current treatments available. No contest.

[Edbear]

Is that because Saline is considered to be benign?

Really? Someone has to validate that the medical condition is new. Nah, let's just take the persons word for it that have a new autoimmune condition.

Consider that 0% would be affected by any Gardasil issues if they didn't have it v's "The benefit to public health is nothing, there is no reduction in cervical cancers, they are just postponed, unless the protection lasts for at least 15 years, and over 70% of all sexually active females of all ages are vaccinated." i.e. 2.2%, or perhaps 3.3% or perhaps something entirely different given that there are still concerns being raised about it and not all cases have been "connected" to the vaccine.

0% chance sounds good to me for my kids. I'm not too worried should they develop cervical cancer down the line given the current treatments available. No contest.

That's why saline was used as the placebo, as it cannot produce any reactions in the human body. It's the standard first call for replacing blood loss, for example as there are no issues with typing.

So for an inert simple salt solution to produce the same results as Gardasil, suggests that Gardasil is not the problem many think it is.

In bold, is my main concern. Hindsight, for my own children, would be that I would not have used it anyway as they didn't fit the criteria for needing it.

[mashman]

That's why saline was used as the placebo, as it cannot produce any reactions in the human body. It's the standard first call for replacing blood loss, for example as there are no issues with typing.

So for an inert simple salt solution to produce the same results as Gardasil, suggests that Gardasil is not the problem many think it is.

In bold, is my main concern. Hindsight, for my own children, would be that I would not have used it anyway as they didn't fit the criteria for needing it.

Odd, as I would have thought that saline wouldn't have produced a result at all. Isn't that the point of a placebo?

Concern shared.

[Edbear]

Odd, as I would have thought that saline wouldn't have produced a result at all. Isn't that the point of a placebo?

Concern shared.

Exactly, a placebo tends to give a check on perceived symptoms of a psychosomatic nature. Many people claim to have a result when they were only given the placebo.

[mashman]

Exactly, a placebo tends to give a check on perceived symptoms of a psychosomatic nature. Many people claim to have a result when they were only given the placebo.

I'm not denying psychosomatic influence, but it sounds like you're saying that how the person felt was enough to confirm the result? Shirley you're not suggesting that that's how clinical trials obtain their results?

[Edbear]

I'm not denying psychosomatic influence, but it sounds like you're saying that how the person felt was enough to confirm the result? Shirley you're not suggesting that that's how clinical trials obtain their results?

That's the way the report is worded, though, and why a placebo was given as a check.. Have another read through.

Personally I prefer to have actual clinical results from a test.

[BuzzardNZ]

Exactly, a placebo tends to give a check on perceived symptoms of a psychosomatic nature. Many people claim to have a result when they were only given the placebo.

Could it work if we gave you placebo tramadol?

[mashman]

That's the way the report is worded, though, and why a placebo was given as a check.. Have another read through.

Personally I prefer to have actual clinical results from a test.

That was Mercks marketing bumf. Somehow I doubt that the word of the recipients would be good enough to receive approval for the shelves.

[yokel]

Trust us, we're "experts" we make a lot of money from you.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/EdCU2DfMBpU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/tvcdh7KlgPI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Banditbandit]

Trust us, we're "experts" we make a lot of money from you.





So ... you were vaccinated as a child? (good chance - because children don't know enough or are too small to stop it ) ..

[Swoop]

So ... you were vaccinated as a child?

It appears so. Vaccinated from catching intelligence.

[Edbear]

"There is simply no scientific evidence that links vaccines to autism. Many, many, many studies have confirmed this. The most recent Cochrane systematic review of research on the MMR vaccine included six self-controlled case series studies, two ecological studies, one case crossover trial, five time-series trials, 17 case-control studies, 27 cohort studies and five randomised controlled trials.
"More than 15 million children took part in this research. No one could find evidence that vaccines are associated with autism," wrote Aaron E Carroll, a professor of Paediatrics, in a New York Times blog.

[Oscar]

"There is simply no scientific evidence that links vaccines to autism. Many, many, many studies have confirmed this. The most recent Cochrane systematic review of research on the MMR vaccine included six self-controlled case series studies, two ecological studies, one case crossover trial, five time-series trials, 17 case-control studies, 27 cohort studies and five randomised controlled trials.
"More than 15 million children took part in this research. No one could find evidence that vaccines are associated with autism," wrote Aaron E Carroll, a professor of Paediatrics, in a New York Times blog.

Dead horse.
Flogging.


Darwin will take care of these fuckwits given time.

[mashman]

"There is simply no scientific evidence that links vaccines to autism. Many, many, many studies have confirmed this. The most recent Cochrane systematic review of research on the MMR vaccine included six self-controlled case series studies, two ecological studies, one case crossover trial, five time-series trials, 17 case-control studies, 27 cohort studies and five randomised controlled trials.
"More than 15 million children took part in this research. No one could find evidence that vaccines are associated with autism," wrote Aaron E Carroll, a professor of Paediatrics, in a New York Times blog.


Dead horse.
Flogging.

Darwin will take care of these fuckwits given time.

I'd pay handsomely to watch you two state that in front of De Niro or in front of any parent that watched their kid transform almost overnight into something that they weren't before inoculation.

[Oscar]

I'd pay handsomely to watch you two state that in front of De Niro or in front of any parent that watched their kid transform almost overnight into something that they weren't before inoculation.

"There is simply no scientific evidence that links vaccines to autism."

Set it up - I'll say that in front of De Niro or anyone else that cares to listen.

[Ocean1]

or anyone else that cares to listen.

Best you fuck off out of here, then.

[Edbear]

Dead horse.
Flogging.
Darwin will take care of these fuckwits given time.

From what I have seen, anti-vaxxers tend to have the same mindset as conspiracy theorists, and nothing like scientific evidence will ever convice them. They prefer to believe everything posted on the anti-vaccination sites.

Anecdotal reports by people about adverse reactions are accepted without question, whereas scientific studies of any magnitude are dismissed.

Like I said, I will continue to believe verifiable science over anti-vaxxers as with conspiracy theorists.

Over and out.

[Banditbandit]

Autism is a different hard wiring in the brain from non-autistic people - tell me - how does a vaccine affect hard wiring in the brain ???

[mashman]

Autism is a different hard wiring in the brain from non-autistic people - tell me - how does a vaccine affect hard wiring in the brain ???

Chemicals and the brain don't always play well together. Not sure what's hard wired about the brain.

[Katman]

Chemicals and the brain don't always play well together. Not sure what's hard wired about the brain.

I certainly wouldn't consider brain synapses 'hard wiring'.

[eldog]

Chemicals and the brain don't always play well together. Not sure what's hard wired about the brain.

The mother of a child I know reckons it was chemical spraying that 'caused' her child's autism.
She reckons the child was OK till spraying started on the farm next door.

I guess the child has a 'average' level of autism, it's bloody hard to live with. I always wonder what's gonna happen when he doesn't have the support of his parents?

He has almost no conscience, no idea about responbility, no feelings (he often knows he does wrong but I think it's only because he expects/anticipates being told off)

Myself I suspect it also has something to do with what the mother was experiencing during the pregnancy.

Hell I am no expert on the matter, it's just my observations.

[Virago]

Children are routinely vaccinated. Children are regularly diagnosed with autism. The law of averages dictates that the two will very occasionally coincide. An erroneous link of causality creates hysteria which is fed further by the distortion and misrepresentation of statistics.

I read an "interesting" article recently (the web address truthkings.com gave some indication as to what was to come). The article detailed studies of 'flu vaccine given to elderly (>65) people. The first study detailed the vaccine given to 2,573 recipients, and advised that within six months 23 (less than 1%) of them had died. The inference was that it was the vaccine that killed them. Well shock and horror, elderly people couldn't have died otherwise could they? The second study was even sillier, out of 31,983 recipients, 167 (0.5%) had died with 6 to 8 months. Imagine that, old people dying. Sadly, people lap this nonsense up and regurgitate it endlessly - it's the "proof" they're looking for.

The manipulative suggestion that correlation equals causality feeds the minds of those desperate to believe in the vaccine conspiracy.

[eldog]

Children are routinely vaccinated. Children are regularly diagnosed with autism. The law of averages dictates that the two will very occasionally coincide. An erroneous link of causality creates hysteria which is fed further by the distortion and misrepresentation of statistics.

I read an "interesting" article recently (the web address truthkings.com gave some indication as to what was to come). The article detailed studies of 'flu vaccine given to elderly (>65) people. The first study detailed the vaccine given to 2,573 recipients, and advised that within six months 23 (less than 1%) of them had died. The inference was that it was the vaccine that killed them. Well shock and horror, elderly people couldn't have died otherwise could they? The second study was even sillier, out of 31,983 recipients, 167 (0.5%) had died with 6 to 8 months. Imagine that, old people dying. Sadly, people lap this nonsense up and regurgitate it endlessly - it's the "proof" they're looking for.

The manipulative suggestion that correlation equals causality feeds the minds of those desperate to believe in the vaccine conspiracy.

The same mother had her kids teething between 2 months and 2 years..... Even time they were sick, one look around the pig sty they lived in... I don't even go there now.

Where as my niece had an major allergy to eggs and bananas so missed some vaccines, based on those.
now she doesn't seem to have those allergies, don't know if she should have those earlier vaccines. Not for me to get involved, just wondering for my piece of mind.

[mashman]

The mother of a child I know reckons it was chemical spraying that 'caused' her child's autism.
She reckons the child was OK till spraying started on the farm next door.

I guess the child has a 'average' level of autism, it's bloody hard to live with. I always wonder what's gonna happen when he doesn't have the support of his parents?

He has almost no conscience, no idea about responbility, no feelings (he often knows he does wrong but I think it's only because he expects/anticipates being told off)

Myself I suspect it also has something to do with what the mother was experiencing during the pregnancy.

Hell I am no expert on the matter, it's just my observations.

If science can't prove it, then it's coincidence. Some stuff brings out nasty reactions in some people. Anecdotal evidence and occams razor are summarily ignored (ironically, but also tragically), coz experts and therefore coincidence and denial and lack of responsibility etc... I met a lady a few months ago who spoke of the loss of her child in the 90's after crop dusting ran into the water they caught off the roof. A nasty tale from start to finish. Who knows how it happens eh.

[mashman]

Your choice, for sure, but I would rather believe the qualified medics and scientists over conspiracy theorists.

Yeah, but what about when they admit that they've lied, cheated and misled the public and start coming forwards to state so? (https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2016/05/06/two-more-mmr-vaccine-whistleblowers-theyre-suing/) That would mean, oh noes, that it's not conspiracy at all, but that we have all indeed been lied to by qualified medics and scientists. Money eh. Fucks everything up.

[TheDemonLord]

Yeah, but what about when they admit that they've lied, cheated and misled the public and start coming forwards to state so? (https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2016/05/06/two-more-mmr-vaccine-whistleblowers-theyre-suing/) That would mean, oh noes, that it's not conspiracy at all, but that we have all indeed been lied to by qualified medics and scientists. Money eh. Fucks everything up.

Funny that the article mentions nothing about Autism aye.

[Katman]

Funny that the article mentions nothing about Autism aye.

Then you didn't read the article very well.

[TheDemonLord]

Then you didn't read the article very well.

Let me clarify - the court case that the article is referencing and is about doesn't mention Autism.

The word autism is only used in reference to a film and some conjecture.

[Katman]

Let me clarify - the court case that the article is referencing and is about doesn't mention Autism.

“According to the whistleblowers’ court documents, Merck’s misconduct was far-ranging: It ‘failed to disclose that its mumps vaccine was not as effective as Merck represented, (ii) used improper testing techniques, (iii) manipulated testing methodology, (iv) abandoned undesirable test results, (v) falsified test data, (vi) failed to adequately investigate and report the diminished efficacy of its mumps vaccine, (vii) falsely verified that each manufacturing lot of mumps vaccine would be as effective as identified in the labeling, (viii) falsely certified the accuracy of applications filed with the FDA, (ix) falsely certified compliance with the terms of the CDC purchase [of the MMR vaccine] contract, (x) engaged in the fraud and concealment described herein for the purpose of illegally monopolizing the U.S. market for mumps vaccine, (xi) mislabeled, misbranded, and falsely certified its mumps vaccine, and (xii) engaged in the other acts described herein to conceal the diminished efficacy of the vaccine the government was purchasing.’”

If you seriously think there is nothing to do with a possible connection to Autism within those charges listed then you're deluding yourself.

[TheDemonLord]

“According to the whistleblowers’ court documents, Merck’s misconduct was far-ranging: It ‘failed to disclose that its mumps vaccine was not as effective as Merck represented, (ii) used improper testing techniques, (iii) manipulated testing methodology, (iv) abandoned undesirable test results, (v) falsified test data, (vi) failed to adequately investigate and report the diminished efficacy of its mumps vaccine, (vii) falsely verified that each manufacturing lot of mumps vaccine would be as effective as identified in the labeling, (viii) falsely certified the accuracy of applications filed with the FDA, (ix) falsely certified compliance with the terms of the CDC purchase [of the MMR vaccine] contract, (x) engaged in the fraud and concealment described herein for the purpose of illegally monopolizing the U.S. market for mumps vaccine, (xi) mislabeled, misbranded, and falsely certified its mumps vaccine, and (xii) engaged in the other acts described herein to conceal the diminished efficacy of the vaccine the government was purchasing.’”

If you seriously think there is nothing to do with a possible connection to Autism within those charges listed then you're deluding yourself.

The thing is, that Court documents have to be very precise (because Lawyers love to nit pick, love vaguaries and loop holes) - can you point out in that extract where Autism is mentioned?

Because I can't

I can see where they have made a case that it isn't as effective as claimed, but I can't see anything mentioning Autism.

Nice Try at a Strawman and guilty by association.

[mashman]

Funny that the article mentions nothing about Autism aye.

Neither did I.


Nice Try at a Strawman and guilty by association.

Makes you hypocritical dickhead dunnit.

[Katman]

The thing is, that Court documents have to be very precise (because Lawyers love to nit pick, love vaguaries and loop holes) - can you point out in that extract where Autism is mentioned?

Quite possibly contained within (iv) or (v).

[Ocean1]

Yeah, but what about when they admit that they've lied, cheated and misled the public and start coming forwards to state so? (https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2016/05/06/two-more-mmr-vaccine-whistleblowers-theyre-suing/) That would mean, oh noes, that it's not conspiracy at all, but that we have all indeed been lied to by qualified medics and scientists. Money eh. Fucks everything up.

http://americanloons.blogspot.co.nz/2014/05/1050-jon-rappoport.html

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Oscar]

http://americanloons.blogspot.co.nz/2014/05/1050-jon-rappoport.html

:laugh::laugh::laugh:


Diagnosis: Hysterically crazy; and his influence is probably not quite as limited as his level of crazy should suggest.

[mashman]

http://americanloons.blogspot.co.nz/2014/05/1050-jon-rappoport.html

:laugh::laugh::laugh:


Diagnosis: Hysterically crazy; and his influence is probably not quite as limited as his level of crazy should suggest.

... and then came the associated.

So what do you think about the link between Autism and MMR boys. S'ok, that's a rhetorical question, I know you don't give a fuck so long as it doesn't happen to you. I feel sorry for you, I truly do... especially you Oscar. Long may your dementia hold brother.

[Ocean1]

So what do you think about the link between Autism and MMR boys. S'ok, that's a rhetorical question, I know you don't give a fuck so long as it doesn't happen to you. I feel sorry for you, I truly do... especially you Oscar. Long may your dementia hold brother.

Well there wasn't a question mark. Which is entirely in keeping with someone not wanting an answer.

Have one anyway: There isn't one.

[Oscar]

... and then came the associated.

So what do you think about the link between Autism and MMR boys. S'ok, that's a rhetorical question, I know you don't give a fuck so long as it doesn't happen to you. I feel sorry for you, I truly do... especially you Oscar. Long may your dementia hold brother.

Dementia?
Are you that insecure that you try and defend your position with that kind of talk.
Says a whole lot about you, pal.


Also - the link between MMR and autism is the constant chattering of fools like you in places like this.

[mashman]

There isn't one.

You might possibly find it a tad odd that those who repressed and destroyed documentation proving otherwise, and are now standing up to state that they did indeed repress and destroy documentation that links MMR to Autism, claim that there is.

[mashman]

Dementia?
Are you that insecure that you try and defend your position with that kind of talk.
Says a whole lot about you, pal.


Also - the link between MMR and autism is the constant chattering of fools like you in places like this.

Awwww precious. What position was I defending? An author? What? Was I supposed to declare the author a fool and therefore dismiss everything that he has written about? Coz that's make you, ironically, the CDC.

Only when it concerns every child on the planet. If it were only just one country I likely wouldn't give a fuck. The dementia "crack" was in response to you forgetting such... or at the very least forgetting under which carpet you'd swept the issue.

[Oscar]

Awwww precious. What position was I defending? An author? What? Was I supposed to declare the author a fool and therefore dismiss everything that he has written about? Coz that's make you, ironically, the CDC.

Only when it concerns every child on the planet. If it were only just one country I likely wouldn't give a fuck. The dementia "crack" was in response to you forgetting such... or at the very least forgetting under which carpet you'd swept the issue.

This is great - I'm hiding an issue that is not proven, and is in fact based on the now discredited study of Andrew Wakefield who has subsequently struck off and found guilty of thirty six counts of misconduct (including 12 counts involving the abuse of developmentally challenged children).

No, you don't need to defend Wakefield (or his latest movie), I can make up my own mind.

You should perhaps direct your concerns to a cure for your raging case of gullibility - maybe there's a vaccine for that...

[mashman]

This is great - I'm hiding an issue that is not proven, and is in fact based on the now discredited study of Andrew Wakefield who has subsequently struck off and found guilty of thirty six counts of misconduct (including 12 counts involving the abuse of developmentally challenged children).

No, you don't need to defend Wakefield (or his latest movie), I can make up my own mind.

You should perhaps direct your concerns to a cure for your raging case of gullibility - maybe there's a vaccine for that...

So you're not going to answer any of the questions I asked for clarification purposes? You strawman it instead :facepalm:

The science dickhead, the science. Forget the players. What the fuck have you guys been injecting that makes manufacture the above horseshit that u cum up wiv Oscar?

bwaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaa@gullibility. The whistleblowers i.e. those who lied and cheated and know they caused harm etc..., are owning up Oscar. You're making yourself look silly with your wild fairy tales of what you think I think. My concern seems to be directed appropriately, and not up my own arse either. Yours however... your head is up someone else's. They beat that out of you in '81 too eh.

[Oscar]

So you're not going to answer any of the questions I asked for clarification purposes? You strawman it instead :facepalm:

The science dickhead, the science. Forget the players. What the fuck have you guys been injecting that makes manufacture the above horseshit that u cum up wiv Oscar?

bwaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaa@gullibility. The whistleblowers i.e. those who lied and cheated and know they caused harm etc..., are owning up Oscar. You're making yourself look silly with your wild fairy tales of what you think I think. My concern seems to be directed appropriately, and not up my own arse either. Yours however... your head is up someone else's. They beat that out of you in '81 too eh.

No I'm not going answer any of your "questions".

Perhaps when you bring something more than paranoid conjuncture to the argument, we could talk.

[Katman]

http://americanloons.blogspot.co.nz/2014/05/1050-jon-rappoport.html

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Are you husaberk's twin?

[mashman]

No I'm not going answer any of your "questions".

Perhaps when you bring something more than paranoid conjuncture to the argument, we could talk.

Ladies and gentlemen. I give you the CDC. They did beat it out of you well didn't they.

[Ocean1]

Are you husaberk's twin?

Why? Would that constitute proof of one of your pet conspiracy theories would it?

Sorry dude, the only familial character required to disagree with your sort is a modicum of intelligence and sanity.

[Oscar]

Ladies and gentlemen. I give you the CDC. They did beat it out of you well didn't they.


You mean the CDC who said as late as Nov 2015 that "Vaccines Do Not Cause Autism"?
That CDC?

[Ocean1]

You might possibly find it a tad odd that those who repressed and destroyed documentation proving otherwise, and are now standing up to state that they did indeed repress and destroy documentation that links MMR to Autism, claim that there is.

Well I certainly don't find it odd that fuckwits like you claim that that's what's happening.

But then I never had any misconceptions that you were anything other than a fuckwit. And I don't need a directory of lunatics to identify fuckwits in order to avoid bothering to take much notice of them, that just happened to be the first cab off the google rank.

[mashman]

You mean the CDC who said as late as Nov 2015 that "Vaccines Do Not Cause Autism"?
That CDC?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrlrUy9Avmc

[mashman]

Well I certainly don't find it odd that fuckwits like you claim that that's what's happening.

But then I never had any misconceptions that you were anything other than a fuckwit.

And you have a lovely evening too.

[Oscar]

...............
https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13263736_10206167404247135_8337273965645707451_n.j pg?oh=0966898ba94d5c9cdef38ac9e9193795&oe=57E2D53A

[Drew]

http://americanloons.blogspot.co.nz/2014/05/1050-jon-rappoport.html

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Did you read the comments after the article? METALS!

[Ocean1]

Did you read the comments after the article? METALS!

I don't actually recall, can't have left much of an impression if I did.

Let me guess, more hysterically crazy fuckwits leaping to his defense? Maybe the odd sane but bored troll?

[Katman]

I don't actually recall, can't have left much of an impression if I did.

Let me guess, more hysterically crazy fuckwits leaping to his defense? Maybe the odd sane but bored troll?

I'm forever amazed at the amount of toxic shit that you stupid fucks are happy to bombard yourself with.

Enjoy your dementia.

[Ocean1]

Let me guess, more hysterically crazy fuckwits?


I'm forever amazed at the amount of toxic shit that you stupid fucks are happy to bombard yourself with.

Speak of the devil.

[Katman]

Speak of the devil.

See, that's what is so amusing about you.

You fail to see the connection between the increase of neurological/physiological illnesses and the everyday toxins that you're happy to excuse.

You cunts are too dumb for words.

[Drew]

See, that's what is so amusing about you.

You fail to see the connection between the increase of neurological/physiological illnesses and the everyday toxins that you're happy to excuse.

You cunts are too dumb for words.

The increases in a lot of the disorders that are being blamed on vaccines, might could be just higher numbers being recorded. Medicine is one of the few fields that hasn't peaked. Shit has probably always been as prolific as it is, we just didn't know it.

There is also a strong argument against what you're saying, in that the population continues to grow at a rising rate and people live longer.

All this shit about the drug companies being evil and trying to kill us, is not backed up by the raw numbers.

[Katman]

The increases in a lot of the disorders that are being blamed on vaccines, might could be just higher numbers being recorded. Medicine is one of the few fields that hasn't peaked. Shit has probably always been as prolific as it is, we just didn't know it.

Keep clutching Drew.

[Oakie]

Enjoy your dementia.

Not to makle light of it at all but a work colleagues's mother with dementia did enjoy her dementia as she spent many waking hours reliving the highlights of her life such as the cruise she took with her late husband many years earlier. My colleague had to carefully question her whenever she rang to try and work out what part of her life she was in on that particular day. Didn't always have good results though. She spoke to her mum once when mum was in the period where my colleague was being courted by her future husband and now father of her children and mum advised her "not to marry that German you've been seeing ... I don't trust him". Ouch.


Hmm. There's a dilemma. What if there was a vaccine for dementia? Would you take it? (Yeah I know dementia is not a virus).

[Drew]

Keep clutching Drew.

What am I clutching at? Not my fucked legs, because I didn't get polio. Funny that.

[Woodman]

See, that's what is so amusing about you.

You fail to see the connection between the increase of neurological/physiological illnesses and the everyday toxins that you're happy to excuse.

You cunts are too dumb for words.

So where do you stand on recreational drug use?

Your answer may or may not explain your increasing paranoia.

[Drew]

So where do you stand on recreational drug use?

Your answer may or may not explain your increasing paranoia.
Don't think so. I'm all for taking drugs, and I tend to only concern myself with my own mistakes.

Mind, I don't smoke weed.

[TheDemonLord]

See, that's what is so amusing about you.

You fail to see the connection between the increase of neurological/physiological illnesses and the everyday toxins that you're happy to excuse.

You cunts are too dumb for words.

It couldn't be that in 100 years our life expectancy has increased by nearly 60% and that people that live longer have a greater chance of getting sick/developing a condition.

It also couldn't be that many things that used to be written off/misdiagnosed are now better understood conditions, with better criteria for determining said conditions.

But you know - Correlation = causation in the mind of a Conspiracy lunatic, afterall, if you graph the number of Fire trucks in an area vs the number of fires, you will see a strong positive correlation. And why would it be called a Fire truck if it DIDN'T cause Fires....

Wake up Sheeple. The Fire service are just trying to keep the population down by setting fire to peoples houses who discover the truth about Fire....

[oldrider]

Trust the vaccine promoters absolutely? - they are the same people that abused antibiotics and gave us the super-bugs that they are warning us about today!

The theory of vaccination is OK but can you trust them to keep harmful substances out of the mix - everybody does not react the same to everything!

It is your right to question and seek out other opinions if you are not satisfied with what you are being told. :confused: .

Trust me I'm a Doctor - yeah right! :rolleyes: - :ride: Give me (without question) your beloved bike to work on I'm a qualified mechanic - yeah right! :hitcher: (no worries?) :Oops:

[TheDemonLord]

Trust the vaccine promoters absolutely? - they are the same people that abused antibiotics and gave us the super-bugs that they are warning us about today!


Yeah, Nah.

That one is more the patients fault - they go to a Doc cause they are Sick, they expect the Doc to do something (especially when they have to pay for the visit), The doc feels obliged to do something (so that they will keep coming back) and the patient doesn't take the full course of meds, because by the 3rd day they are feeling fine.


The theory of vaccination is OK but can you trust them to keep harmful substances out of the mix - everybody does not react the same to everything!

Are you implying that some people will have allergic reactions to a Vaccine? If so, this is not something that we will argue against as it is a known fact - Or are you implying a sinister plot to poison everyone? That would require some proof.


It is your right to question and seek out other opinions if you are not satisfied with what you are being told. :confused: .

The problem is 2 fold:

1: The people who are not satisfied have demonstrated time and time again that they will never be satisfied with any study/data/research except that which supports their belief.
2: The source that the people who are not satisfied use. Case in Point: Jenny McCarthy being one of the leading spokespeople for the Anti-Vaccination movement. a Person with no Medical or Biology qualification.


Trust me I'm a Doctor - yeah right! :rolleyes: - :ride: Give me (without question) your beloved bike to work on I'm a qualified mechanic - yeah right! :hitcher: (no worries?) :Oops:

Sure, once you have done your 5 years of University training and 1 year of internship - I'll let you work on my Bike.

[oldrider]

Situation ethics - our family have trouble with some medications - require to have very good relationship of understanding (and do have) with our doctors.

Someone close has endured a life of almost solitary confinement not because of a "qualified doctor" but because one was incompetent and drunk! (misadventure!)

His not unsubstantial qualifications were irrelevant!

Qualifications are meaningless apart from the fact that they have done the training - it's skill accountability and competence that has value!

Adage: A man shall be remembered for what he has done rather than what he has said! - Trust me I'm a doctor? - you gotta be kidding!

[Oakie]

"Out of the mouths of babes"
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/80692971/young-blogger-wades-in-on-vaccination-debate

[Katman]

"Out of the mouths of babes"
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/80692971/young-blogger-wades-in-on-vaccination-debate

Wow, case closed then.




(Are you autistic?)

[Oakie]

Wow, case closed then.

(Are you autistic?)

It's about as compelling as the case for actually.

And no, I'm not autistic myself but I do work at a place supporting a number of autistic adults and know a thing or two on the subject.

(And thanks for the red-rep ... didn't hurt though ... I've had the vaccination for it)

[Katman]

It's about as compelling as the case for actually.

Then clearly you are too fucking stupid to even look into the 'case for'.




And no, I'm not autistic myself but I do work at a place supporting a number of autistic adults and know a thing or two on the subject.



Well anyone that thinks your post adds the slightest value to the discussion is either autistic or a fucking moron.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Oakie]

Then clearly you are too fucking stupid to even look into the case for.
Nah. I did look with an open mind. It's all been covered ad nauseam here but I'm happy that Dr Wakefields 'findings' were fraudulent.


Well anyone that thinks your post adds the slightest value to the discussion is either autistic or a fucking moron.
That's a broad statement for such a narrow mind!

You should come and spend some time where I work. We'd give you some nice drugs, de-escalate you ... turn you into a happy bunny.

[Drew]

Wish I knew how to embed from my phone.

[Bass]

No-one could ever accuse you of being PC and you do have a way of getting your point across:laugh:

[nzspokes]

Wish I knew how to embed from my phone.

This is the point. Having been to school with kids that had Polio I have seen what it does. I would suggest the Anti Vax crowd have either never seen it or are so tied up in there own mental and physical addictions they cannot accept they are wrong.

However I accept that in everyday life we come into contact with substances that are carcinogens or can in other ways kill us. From builders with asbestos to motor mechanics etc.

[Katman]

Wish I knew how to embed from my phone.

Did Oakie's 12 year old scientist write that?

[Drew]

Did Oakie's 12 year old scientist write that?

You laughed, don't try and deny it.

[Katman]

This is the point. Having been to school with kids that had Polio I have seen what it does. I would suggest the Anti Vax crowd have either never seen it or are so tied up in there own mental and physical addictions they cannot accept they are wrong.

And see, once again the 'lead me to the vaccine' crowd can't get it through their heads that questioning some vaccines doesn't necessarily make one anti every vaccine.

If question marks are raised over certain vaccines though, the public have the right to be fully informed of them.

[nzspokes]

If question marks are raised over certain vaccines though, the public have the right to be fully informed of them.

That is obvious.

[Katman]

That is obvious.

It may be obvious but I certainly don't think it happens.

[Drew]

It may be obvious but I certainly don't think it happens.

Lol. That also, is obvious.

[Katman]

Lol. That also, is obvious.

Do you agree with the public being left in the dark regarding any concerns about certain vaccines?

[Maha]

the public have the right to be fully informed of them.

Explains now that your parents kept home from school the day the 'Don't be a Knob End all you Life' jabs were given out, ''little Stevie wont need that''..oh how wrong they were :eek:

[Katman]

<img src="http://raesidecartoon.com/wp-content/shop/cache_600_400_0_60_60_16777215_3262.gif"/>

[Drew]

Do you agree with the public being left in the dark regarding any concerns about certain vaccines?

I trust the vast majority of the medical professionals that tell me they're safe.

[Bass]

And see, once again the 'lead me to the vaccine' crowd can't get it through their heads that questioning some vaccines doesn't necessarily make one anti every vaccine.

If question marks are raised over certain vaccines though, the public have the right to be fully informed of them.


I doubt that anyone would disagree with that statement. It's the objectivity of some of the question marks that's being called into question. The internet is exceptionally good at converting unsubstantiated opinion into fact.

[Katman]

I trust the vast majority of the medical professionals that tell me they're safe.

Nice sidestep - that wasn't what I asked.

Do you agree with the concept that the public should be kept uninformed of any concerns regarding certain vaccines?

[Katman]

I doubt that anyone would disagree with that statement. It's the objectivity of some of the question marks that's being called into question. The internet is exceptionally good at converting unsubstantiated opinion into fact.

While maybe not 'conclusive', reports of data that doesn't fit the desired results being destroyed is far from 'unsubstantiated'.

[TheDemonLord]

Nice sidestep - that wasn't what I asked.

Do you agree with the concept that the public should be kept uninformed of any concerns regarding certain vaccines?

Does the Public have the necessary skills, knowledge and experience to evaluate any concerns?

afterall - I'm pretty sure that most Anti-Vaxx people drive cars, which have a statistically much greater chance of resulting in death, Serious injury or permanent disability.

[Katman]

Does the Public have the necessary skills, knowledge and experience to evaluate any concerns?

You might not but plenty of other people do.

[Bass]

While maybe not 'conclusive', reports of data that doesn't fit the desired results being destroyed is far from 'unsubstantiated'.

Therein lies the heart of the discussion.
The net is well known for instances where articles quoted articles which quoted articles like a pyramid scheme, which when traced back to the original, found shaky ground.
I have no idea how widespread this is, but that it happens at all, gives grounds for caution.

[TheDemonLord]

You might not but plenty of other people do.

Would those people be the Doctors who went through University or a Playboy Playmate?

[Katman]

Therein lies the heart of the discussion.
The net is well known for instances where articles quoted articles which quoted articles like a pyramid scheme, which when traced back to the original, found shaky ground.
I have no idea how widespread this is, but that it happens at all, gives grounds for caution.

So why should people be criticised for wanting to find out for themselves what foundation there is for the concerns surrounding certain vaccines?

[Katman]

Would those people be the Doctors who went through University or a Playboy Playmate?

They're the one who don't suffer mental disorders.

[Bass]

So why should people be criticised for wanting to find out for themselves what foundation there is for the concerns surrounding certain vaccines?

I don't see that happening.

I do see people criticising the presentation of claims as being fact.
However, whether they were actually presented as fact or simply as an item of interest which might be worth investigating, is up for debate, which typically goes downhill from there.

[Katman]

I don't see that happening.

It happens all the time.

In exactly the same way that people are immediately critised and ridiculed if they question what chemicals may be being sprayed into our atmosphere.

And in exactly the same way that people are critised and ridiculed for questioning whether ulterior influences are behind certain governments.

[TheDemonLord]

It happens all the time.

In exactly the same way that people are immediately critised and ridiculed if they question what chemicals may be being sprayed into our atmosphere.

And in exactly the same way that people are critised and ridiculed for questioning whether ulterior influences are behind certain governments.

Have you ever considered why you are immediately criticized and ridiculed?

[Katman]

Have you ever considered why you are immediately criticized and ridiculed?

Because the majority of the public have been fooled into believing that anyone who questions the establishment is simply one of those dirty 'conspiracy theorists'.

Well played CIA - well played.

[Oscar]

Because the majority of the public have been fooled into believing that anyone who questions the establishment is simply one of those dirty 'conspiracy theorists'.

Simply parroting theories and conspiracies from the arse end of the internet without bothering to apply any sort of intellectual rigor is not "questioning the establishment".
There is a good reason why people like you are regarded as hysterical moon-baying fruit bags.
It's because you are hysterical moon-baying fruit bags....

The Dr Diane Harper / HPV Vaccine saga is an excellent example.

http://www.snopes.com/medical/drugs/gardasil.asp

[Oscar]

Have you ever considered why you are immediately criticized and ridiculed?

Ooo, I'll take that one for money, Selwyn.

Because they are stupid and ridiculous?

[Katman]

http://www.snopes.com/medical/drugs/gardasil.asp

Snopes. :killingme

[TheDemonLord]

Because the majority of the public have been fooled into believing that anyone who questions the establishment is simply one of those dirty 'conspiracy theorists'.

Well played CIA - well played.

That comment is exactly why you are ridiculed.

I'll let you muse that one over for a while and see if you can realise....

[TheDemonLord]

Ooo, I'll take that one for money, Selwyn.

Because they are stupid and ridiculous?

Well.... There is that too....

[Katman]

That comment is exactly why you are ridiculed.

There's that Autie logic again.

[Oscar]

Snopes. :killingme

Not snopes:

http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/dr-diane-harper-hpv-vaccines-the-tin-hat-version/

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/08/16/yet-another-antivaccine-meme-rises-from-the-grave-again-no-diane-harper-doesnt-hate-gardasil/

http://www.gardasilhpv.com/2009/10/dr-diane-harper-badly-misquoted-on.html

https://sososciencedotcom1.wordpress.com/2013/11/13/the-bogus-hpv-vaccine-article-that-just-wont-die/

[Drew]

Nice sidestep - that wasn't what I asked.

Do you agree with the concept that the public should be kept uninformed of any concerns regarding certain vaccines?
They are perfectly able to be informed now. But rather than go to actual studied and do their own research, most refer to the one sided bullshit that suits their initial feeling.

For every single source anyone refers to, there's another saying the opposite. So I put my faith in the doctors.

[TheDemonLord]

There's that Autie logic again.

You say that each and every time that you can't rebut what I have said.

Even if I was Autistic, it would still be proof that I am (and always will be) smarter than you.

[Maha]

They are perfectly able to be informed now. But rather than go to actual studied and do their own research, most refer to the one sided bullshit that suits their initial feeling.

For every single source anyone refers to, there's another saying the opposite. So I put my faith in the doctors.

Soon after his circumcision was done, the Doctor suggested that they graft what was left over onto his chin, so he could just sit there stroking it without detection. The big plus being that it would hopefully catch most of the shit that fell out but that seems to have failed.

[Katman]

For every single source anyone refers to, there's another saying the opposite. So I put my faith in the doctors.

Doctors tend to spout what the drug companies tell them Drew.

Drug companies spout whatever makes them money.

[Drew]

Doctors tend to spout what the drug companies tell them Drew.

Drug companies spout whatever makes them money.
And you think they would make less if they were treating the ailments that are vaccinated against?

[Katman]

And you think they would make less if they were treating the ailments that are vaccinated against?

They get to 'treat' a far greater number by scaremongering perfectly healthy people into lining up for vaccines Drew.

[R650R]

In a dept where I work sometimes about 3 out of the 20 staff have had this years flu shot, will watch with interest at who gets sick or not....

[R650R]

http://www.naturalnews.com/053851_HPV_vaccines_emergency_room_visits_adverse_ events.html

[Ocean1]

http://www.naturalnews.com/053851_HPV_vaccines_emergency_room_visits_adverse_ events.html

http://americanloons.blogspot.co.nz/2010/05/1-mike-adams.html

There's a clue there, somewhere...

[Katman]

http://americanloons.blogspot.co.nz/2010/05/1-mike-adams.html

There's a clue there, somewhere...

Are you husaberk's twin?

[Woodman]

Are you husaberk's twin?

Are you a paranoid delusional moron?

[Katman]

Are you a paranoid delusional moron?

Not the last time I asked myself.

[Woodman]

Not the last time I asked myself.

Hardly an unbiased opinion though.

[Katman]

Hardly an unbiased opinion though.

He's probably plotting against me.

[Woodman]

He's probably plotting against me.

Don't worry about him too much, he is a moron remember.

[Ocean1]

Are you a paranoid delusional moron?

We should start our own local register of paranoid delusional morons!

Suckmycock can be it's founding entry!

[Akzle]

In a dept where I work sometimes about 3 out of the 20 staff have had this years flu shot, will watch with interest at who gets sick or not....

i haven't been injected with any shit since i reached the age of reason. (excepting recreationally)

total number of times i've been ill: 2.

we're talking decades here, aswell.

fuck all y'all sick cunts. :motu:

[Drew]

They get to 'treat' a far greater number by scaremongering perfectly healthy people into lining up for vaccines Drew.

Vaccines are there for illnesses that present a high rate of mortality or serious repercussions, and are extremely contagious. Drug companies would make as much or more from ongoing needs of victims.

You know this shit. I have no issue with your mistrust of the company line. But I resent the constant implication that because some of us do swallow said line, that we simply can't have considered the issue enough.

I have considered the likely hood that serious side effects are being kept under wraps by the drug companies, but there is just no statistical probability that it's possible. Too many people are involved for there not to be loads of 'whistle blowers' , as opposed to the one or two making noise at the moment.

[Ocean1]

Vaccines are there for illnesses that present a high rate of mortality or serious repercussions, and are extremely contagious. Drug companies would make as much or more from ongoing needs of victims.

You know this shit. I have no issue with your mistrust of the company line. But I resent the constant implication that because some of us do swallow said line, that we simply can't have considered the issue enough.

I have considered the likely hood that serious side effects are being kept under wraps by the drug companies, but there is just no statistical probability that it's possible. Too many people are involved for there not to be loads of 'whistle blowers' , as opposed to the one or two making noise at the moment.

The thing is even if there was significant risk of serious negative effects from vaccinations they'd still represent a fucking huge improvement over the natural attrition rate the offending pathogens represented.

And there's just not. No more than rare and nuisance level effects. And fuckwits.

[Drew]

The thing is even if there was significant risk of serious negative effects from vaccinations they'd still represent a fucking huge improvement over the natural attrition rate the offending pathogens represented.

And there's just not. No more than rare and nuisance level effects. And fuckwits.

I want to understand the idea that autism is caused by vaccines. From the little I know of it, I was under the impression that researchers had no idea what caused it. Confusing the issue further, it's not even clearly defined yet. It's the contemporary asthma.

[Katman]

But I resent the constant implication that because some of us do swallow said line, that we simply can't have considered the issue enough.

I'm not actually implying that Drew.

I'm more voicing my contempt for the pack mentality that says "you're a fuckwit cos you're asking questions".

I don't have kids (and have no plan to) so quite frankly, I couldn't give a shit whether people vaccinate their spawn or not.

[Ocean1]

I want to understand the idea that autism is caused by vaccines. From the little I know of it, I was under the impression that researchers had no idea what caused it. Confusing the issue further, it's not even clearly defined yet. It's the contemporary asthma.

Everyone would like to know what causes autism.

But so far only obvious fuckwits blame vaccines.

So if you're genuinely interested you'd be best served by subscribing to those journals that report research from professionals working legitimately in the field. That's where most new discoveries are found. Not among fuckwits with little to no training, an internet connection and a personal "insight".

[RDJ]

I'd like to try and simplify this discussion.

If you choose not to be vaccinated against diseases that can be vaccinated against, and you contract a preventable disease and come into contact with people with depressed immunity such as transplant patients and people on chemotherapy, and you pass that preventable disease onto them, they usually die. Even 'healthy' children and adults can die or get seriously damaged - see, measles encephalitis.

Not all vaccines are 100% effective, but when enough people are vaccinated then through herd immunity we avoid circulation of the most likely preventable pathogens. People who decide not to take the individual risk of vaccination but nevertheless take advantage of herd immunity, are more than usually selfish.

That is all.

[Akzle]

I'd like to try and simplify this discussion.

If you choose not to be vaccinated against diseases that can be vaccinated against, and you contract a preventable disease and come into contact with people with depressed immunity such as transplant patients and people on chemotherapy, and you pass that preventable disease onto them, they usually die. Even 'healthy' children and adults can die or get seriously damaged - see, measles encephalitis.


good.

The fuck we need weak cunts for?

[Katman]

good.

The fuck we need weak cunts for?

Dumb cunts want to fuck with nature.

[TheDemonLord]

I'm more voicing my contempt for the pack mentality that says "you're a fuckwit cos you're asking questions".

I'll give you a hint - it's not cause you ask questions.

It's cause you ignore evidence that contradicts your beliefs.

When you can separate those two distinct (and non-overlapping) concepts, we might be able to get somewhere...

[TheDemonLord]

Dumb cunts want to fuck with nature.

I keep telling you to go to the Middle of Africa, where you can be free from the Evil Big Pharma, It's a shame you don't take me up on the offer.

[F5 Dave]

Yeah motorcyclists seem pretty vulnerable. Maybe give them a little tap into a parked car to get rid of the weak genes.

[Crasherfromwayback]

. We'd give you some nice drugs, .

Postal address PM'd...

:baby:

[F5 Dave]

I can't believe this thread is still going and some people think Wakefield is anything other than a crook. A study with twelve fucking kids in it, most who had known issues to start with. And he was funded by a competing drug company from the multiple jab MMR crowd. Well gee there's a short conspiracy story.

End of.

[Grumph]

Agree - should have gone to pink hell within a week of starting.

can we get the mods vaccinated against allowing this crap ?

[Katman]

I keep telling you to go to the Middle of Africa, where you can be free from the Evil Big Pharma,

Not even.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/1979/11/charge-gynocide?page=2

[Katman]

I imagine back in the days of Edward Jenner there was a high degree of integrity maintained in the field of medicine manufacture.

Since then it has turned into a multi-billion dollar industry - with all the corruption you would expect to find in an industry of that size.

[yokel]

First it was fat was bad and making you fat, now it's sugar.

If you want to trust what the ministry of truth is telling you and what's good for you, then go right a head and get the jabs.

And if someone says "but herd immunity" well they can fuck off.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/dQ3GpHp_qPY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Katman]

And if someone says "but herd immunity" well they can fuck off.

It should probably more accurately be called 'flock immunity'.

[F5 Dave]

[Sigh] unsubscribe.

[nzspokes]

Yeah lets have Polio back again.

[Oakie]

I can't believe this thread is still going and some people think Wakefield is anything other than a crook. A study with twelve fucking kids in it, most who had known issues to start with. And he was funded by a competing drug company from the multiple jab MMR crowd. Well gee there's a short conspiracy story. .

And the other part is that his study was part funded by a legal firm whose interest was in a large class action if the link was established (I think they forked out about 400,000 pound, part of which went to the parents of some of the kids to get them to take part.) Could be wrong on the detail but I can't be arsed looking it up again. Whatever.

[Katman]

Could be wrong on the detail but I can't be arsed looking it up again. Whatever.

Wow, what a clear cut argument.

You stupid fuck.

[Oakie]

Wow, what a clear cut argument. You stupid fuck.

That's Mr Stupid Fuck to you! Who threw the sand up your vagina anyway?

(Hmm. I was a 'stupid moron' a couple of nights ago in this thread. I'm don't know if stupid fuck is an improvement or not.)

[Katman]

That's Mr Stupid Fuck to you! Who threw the sand up your vagina anyway?

(Hmm. I was a 'stupid moron' a couple of nights ago in this thread. I'm don't know if stupid fuck is an improvement or not.)

Seriously, if "I can't remember the details and can't be arsed looking it up" is the best you've got to offer, what the fuck are you even doing in this thread?

[Ocean1]

Seriously, if "I can't remember the details and can't be arsed looking it up" is the best you've got to offer, what the fuck are you even doing in this thread?

Dude, his dodgy memory represents a far more authoritative source than anything you've ever supplied.

[Oakie]

Seriously, if "I can't remember the details and can't be arsed looking it up" is the best you've got to offer, what the fuck are you even doing in this thread?

Why bother finding the nitty-gritty detail again when I know it'll make no difference. Head, meet brick wall repeatedly. It's just a waste of time because I know all I'll get back for my effort is abuse instead of reasoned argument. Never mind. Moving on.

[Maha]

Why bother finding the nitty-gritty detail again when I know it'll make no difference. Head, meet brick wall repeatedly. It's just a waste of time because I know all I'll get back for my effort is abuse instead of reasoned argument. Never mind. Moving on.

You're dealing with someone who has *PEBCAK Syndrome.

*Problem Exists between Chair and Keyboard

[Katman]

Why bother finding the nitty-gritty detail again when I know it'll make no difference. Head, meet brick wall repeatedly. It's just a waste of time because I know all I'll get back for my effort is abuse instead of reasoned argument. Never mind. Moving on.

Well a few points spring to mind.

Andrew Wakefield isn't anti-vaccine. He has concerns over the safety of one particular vaccine.

There might be a whole lot more to Brian Deer's 'investigation' than we're aware of. http://www.ageofautism.com/2011/01/keeping-anderson-cooper-honest-is-brian-deer-the-fraud.html

John Walker-Smith (a co-author of Andrew Wakefield's paper) won his High Court appeal to be reinstated after the GMC struck him off.

Andrew Wakefield's paper is by no means the only controversy surrounding the MMR vaccine.

[TheDemonLord]

Well a few points spring to mind.

Andrew Wakefield isn't anti-vaccine. He has concerns over the safety of one particular vaccine.

There might be a whole lot more to Brian Deer's 'investigation' than we're aware of. http://www.ageofautism.com/2011/01/keeping-anderson-cooper-honest-is-brian-deer-the-fraud.html

John Walker-Smith (a co-author of Andrew Wakefield's paper) won his High Court appeal to be reinstated after the GMC struck him off.

Andrew Wakefield's paper is by no means the only controversy surrounding the MMR vaccine.

All paid for by Big Pharma...

Which would make you a massive hypocrite

[Katman]

All paid for by Big Pharma...

Which would make you a massive hypocrite

There's that Autie 'logic' again.

[RDJ]

There is no point responding to Katman's points on this forum as he lives in a fact-free zone. To consider Andrew Wakefield as anything other than a fraud who lied in pursuit of money, is idiocy on stilts. He doesn’t deserve the barest oxygen of publicity, after widespread panic in the wake of his lying paper led to a sharp drop in vaccination rates and thousands of avoidable deaths - and counting - from vaccine-preventable disease.

I'd urge any parents who question the risk v benefit calculus of vaccination to research widely online, make a list of questions, and sit down and discuss your residual concerns with a doctor you trust, one willing to take the time to review your concerns in your family's context.

Disclosure: I deal professionally with the effects of what we will call the McCarthy-Katman Effect when it sickens people and kills babies. Therefore, time for an ad-hominem commentary.

MKE consequences arise from anti-vaccination campaigners with closet-paranoid fantasies acting self-importantly and making enough noise to confuse worried parents (who were primed by the signal-to-noise problems with the Wakefield paper). Jenny McCarthy has zero medical training, but leads a massive movement against immunizations; Katman's medical training I leave to the reader as an exercise in mythology.

Parents and pediatricians alike want to protect children. GPs don’t get kickbacks from vaccine companies. Infectious disease specialists don't get rich selling millions of books urging people to follow the recommended immunization schedule. No-one enjoys sticking needles into babies and children.

Undeniable facts (undeniable unless you inhabit the M-K Intellectual Twilight Zone...):

Despite still relatively good overall immunization rates in NZ - and I don't give a flock whether you call it flock or herd immunity - we still see
- 2-3 in 1,000 children with measles, die
- 4 in 100,000 children with chickenpox, die
- 500 in 100,000 children are annually hospitalized with pertussis; 8 died in the last 10 years
For every child who survives, a considerable percentage are damaged for life

Considering such deaths are wholly preventable, considering every risk-benefit calculation ever carried out for mass childhood vaccination is hugely in favour of vaccinating the pediatric population, and considering that increased efforts to persuade people not to vaccinate their children will result in more dead children, it's hard to see what motivates anti-vaccination advocates, other than anecdote, hearsay, superstition, paranoia, and primitivism.

[Katman]

<img src="https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7386/9223432528_92ef7ccc25_b.jpg"/>

[Woodman]

Considering such deaths are wholly preventable, considering every risk-benefit calculation ever carried out for mass childhood vaccination is hugely in favour of vaccinating the pediatric population, and considering that increased efforts to persuade people not to vaccinate their children will result in more dead children, it's hard to see what motivates anti-vaccination advocates, other than anecdote, hearsay, superstition, paranoia, and primitivism.

You forgot fuckwitism.....


<img src="https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7386/9223432528_92ef7ccc25_b.jpg"/>

And here he is now..

[Katman]

You forgot fuckwitism.....



And here it is......

So what do you make of the claim that the CDC destroyed documents relating to their study into the possible link between the vaccine and autism?

[Drew]

So what do you make of the claim that the CDC destroyed documents relating to their study into the possible link between the vaccine and autism?

It's an unsubstantiated claim man. Pretty hard to make anything of it.

[Katman]

It's an unsubstantiated claim man. Pretty hard to make anything of it.

Are you saying Dr. William Thompson is lying?

[TheDemonLord]

There's that Autie 'logic' again.

No, here is your hypocrisy you idiotic Twat:


I imagine back in the days of Edward Jenner there was a high degree of integrity maintained in the field of medicine manufacture.

Since then it has turned into a multi-billion dollar industry - with all the corruption you would expect to find in an industry of that size.


Well a few points spring to mind.

Andrew Wakefield isn't anti-vaccine. He has concerns over the safety of one particular vaccine.

There might be a whole lot more to Brian Deer's 'investigation' than we're aware of. http://www.ageofautism.com/2011/01/keeping-anderson-cooper-honest-is-brian-deer-the-fraud.html

John Walker-Smith (a co-author of Andrew Wakefield's paper) won his High Court appeal to be reinstated after the GMC struck him off.

Andrew Wakefield's paper is by no means the only controversy surrounding the MMR vaccine.

These 2 posts are the epitome of Hypocrisy.

Basically - you believe and trust Corrupt Big Pharma 'research' when it suits your agenda, and discount Big Pharma research as corrupt when it doesn't.

Pick one.

[Katman]

These 2 posts are the epitome of Hypocrisy.

I don't think you really understand the definition of hypocrisy.

[Drew]

Are you saying Dr. William Thompson is lying?

If it walks like a duck...

Either he is lying, or a shit ton of other doctors are.

[WristTwister]

I don't think you really understand the definition of hypocrisy.

So it wouldn't be fair to say you decide to trust the view of sources based on whether you think they support your view or not? ie: you trust sources that support your view, but distrust those that conflict with it?

That's not hypocrisy, but it is confirmation bias.

Confirmation bias, also called confirmatory bias or myside bias, is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses, while giving disproportionately less consideration to alternative possibilities.

[TheDemonLord]

I don't think you really understand the definition of hypocrisy.

"the behavior of people who do things that they tell other people not to do : behavior that does not agree with what someone claims to believe or feel"

So, it would be like someone telling other people that Big Pharma is corrupt and to not trust them, and then trusting a corrupt research paper paid for by Big Pharma.

Oh Wait!

That is EXACTLY what you just did.

So I'll counter with - I don't think you really understand ANYTHING.

[Katman]

So, it would be like someone telling other people that Big Pharma is corrupt and to not trust them, and then trusting a corrupt research paper paid for by Big Pharma.

Really?

I thought it was the UK Legal Services Commission that he was billing for his time.

[Katman]

So it wouldn't be fair to say you decide to trust the view of sources based on whether you think they support your view or not? ie: you trust sources that support your view, but distrust those that conflict with it?

I'm not quite sure why you've underlined the word 'of' (are you autistic by any chance?) but your definition of confirmation bias fits just as easily for those on the other side of the argument.

[Woodman]

So it wouldn't be fair to say you decide to trust the view of sources based on whether you think they support your view or not? ie: you trust sources that support your view, but distrust those that conflict with it?

That's not hypocrisy, but it is confirmation bias.

Confirmation bias, also called confirmatory bias or myside bias, is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses, while giving disproportionately less consideration to alternative possibilities.

Thats katmans m.o. It used to be amusing.

[Katman]

Thats katmans m.o. It used to be amusing.

<img src="http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/109/590x/Lamb-in-the-grass-567099.jpg"/>

[mada]

Big pharma are also behind condoms...... how can we trust them?:facepalm:

[Virago]

Are you saying Dr. William Thompson is lying?

There's countless doctors who will confirm that there's no link between immunisation and autism. Are you saying they're lying?

[Katman]

There's countless doctors who will confirm that there's no link between immunisation and autism. Are you saying they're lying?

Are they basing their confirmation on their own research or just voicing their opinion based on what they've been told?

'Cos I'm pretty sure you'll find that Dr. William Thompson's claim is based on what he saw with his very own eyes.

[Virago]

Are they basing their claims on their own research or just voicing their opinion based on what they've been told?

'Cos I'm pretty sure you'll find that Dr. William Thompson's claim is based on what he saw with his very own eyes.

There's no greater "research" than vaccinating many thousands of children without any link with autism.

[Katman]

There's no greater "research" than vaccinating many thousands of children without any link with autism.

What about the few that might show a link to autism?

[Virago]

What about the few that might show a link to autism?

Children are diagnosed with autism at the time. Children are vaccinated all the time.

Correlation does not equal causation.

[Katman]

Children are diagnosed with autism at the time. Children are vaccinated all the time.

Correlation does not equal causation.

But what if there was a very rare gene that reacted badly to the MMR vaccine?

Wouldn't it be better to research that in order to eventually be able to screen children before giving them the 3 in 1 shot?

Those who tested positive for that gene could instead be given the separate shots spread over the previously used time frame.

Pretty much like Andrew Wakefield was recommending.

[mada]

But what if there was a very rare gene that reacted badly to the MMR vaccine?

Wouldn't it be better to research that in order to eventually be able to screen children before giving them the 3 in 1 shot?

Those who tested positive for that gene could instead be given the separate shots spread over the previously used time frame.

Pretty much like Andrew Wakefield was recommending.

http://www.cochrane.org/CD004407/ARI_using-the-combined-vaccine-for-protection-of-children-against-measles-mumps-and-rubella

:eek5:

Why and who would spend the billions be spent trying to find a "hypothetical gene" that is not causing any problems...

When you go down the line of genetic testing for rare genes that are 1 per 1,000,000,000 people you will eventually get Gattaca. Yeah nah...

[Katman]

Why and who would spend the billions be spent trying to find a "hypothetical gene" that is not causing any problems...

When you go down the line of genetic testing for rare genes that are 1 per 1,000,000,000 people you will eventually get Gattaca. Yeah nah...

True.

There's no profit in that, is there?

And are you really suggesting that it's only a 1 in a billion chance that there might be a link to autism?

[mada]

True.

There's no profit in that, is there?

Well if big pharma was getting the $ from each patented gene test there would be.

[Katman]

Well if big pharma was getting the $ from each patented gene test there would be.

Dude, you should patent that idea.

[mada]

True.

And are you really suggesting that it's only a 1 in a billion chance that there might be a link to autism?

What are these "links" you are talking about?

You gave me a hypothetical gene, I gave you a hypothetical number based on a made up gene. There is across the board scientific consensus that there is no link between vaccination and autism. Why would doctors lie about such a thing when they would be the first ones to see such cases and "links"?

As someone mentioned earlier, correlation does not equal causation either.

[mada]

Dude, you should patent that idea.

Careful what you wish for mate


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM_dqjgyMmA

[Katman]

What are these "links" you are talking about?

Haven't you heard?

Some people think there might be a link between the MMR vaccine and autism.

[Virago]

But what if there was a very rare gene that reacted badly to the MMR vaccine?

Wouldn't it be better to research that in order to eventually be able to screen children before giving them the 3 in 1 shot?

Those who tested positive for that gene could instead be given the separate shots spread over the previously used time frame.

Pretty much like Andrew Wakefield was recommending.

And yet there's never been any research to confirm a link between MMR and autism. The "study" carried out by Wakefield (which conspiracy theorists cling to like drowning men) has been shown to be flawed, skewed - and fraudulent.

The anti-vaccine brigade needs to put up, or shut up. The "just maybe" approach doesn't cut it.

[Katman]

The anti-vaccine brigade needs to put up, or shut up. The "just maybe" approach doesn't cut it.

All you need now is a uniform (http://www.trbimg.com/img-555f8261/turbine/la-na-tt-gates-tells-boy-scouts-20150522).

(I'm sure you can adapt the punchline).

[mada]

Haven't you heard?

Some people think there might be a link between the MMR vaccine and autism.

I've heard... but all these people never seem to actually explain the "link", what it is based on, how statistically significant it is, the etiology, then the evidence.

Instead the majority base their argument on hearing of one discredited article.

By virtue of this argument I could put forward that with this paper http://img2.timg.co.il/CommunaFiles/50575890.pdf there is a link to vaccinations actually decreasing the occurrence of autism.:rolleyes:

[Katman]

Instead the majority base their argument on hearing of one discredited article.

I'm equally sure that there are a number who base their argument on far more than that.

Like I've said before, I actually have no personal investment in this argument. I don't have to decide whether to subject a child to the MMR vaccine or not.

I'm more intrigued by the vehemence that people who question the vaccine are subjected to.

We've been shown cases of gross misadventure in the past with the likes of thalidomide.

Let's hope we're not witnessing another such debacle.

(And that's entirely without mentioning the whole Tuskagee idea).

[Ocean1]

Haven't you heard?

Some people think there might be a link between the MMR vaccine and autism.

Only fuckwits, dude.

If you understood why that's so then you'd probably be just as convinced that it's possible to die of embarrassment.

But you never will. Fuckwits don't.

[Katman]

Only fuckwits, dude.

If you understood why that's so then you'd probably be just as convinced that it's possible to die of embarrassment.

But you never will. Fuckwits don't.

I'll take that as a no then.

[mada]

I'm equally sure that there are a number who base their argument on far more than that.

Like I've said before, I actually have no personal investment in this argument. I don't have to decide whether to subject a child to the MMR vaccine or not.

I'm more intrigued by the vehemence that people who question the vaccine are subjected to.

We've been shown cases of gross misadventure in the past with the likes of thalidomide.

Let's hope we're not witnessing another such debacle.

(And that's entirely without mentioning the whole Tuskagee idea).

It's an emotive topic. Because those who may see the ill-effects and try to pick up the pieces, then get branded as being part of some global conspiracy.

Yes there have been countless cases over the years of misadventure (add Cartwright Inquiry to the list). Just like SOME bikies are gangmembers.
The medical fraternity along with the scientific community have an obligation be open to debate.

After the questions were raised countless research was and has been undertaken all over the world, year after year, by various different organisations, researchers, etc. all coming back with the same consensus. But this is portrayed as some big conspiracy, yet we can trust such people with other things such as Aids prevention, and their research that has found thalidomide along with countless other drugs is teratogenic?

I have no issue with people questioning things... but I do have issue when they spread baseless lies - whether that be saying "there are links" or you cannot "trust all research because they all in big pharma's pocket" or "all bikers are rapist gang members who ride harleys" etc.

[Virago]

...I'm more intrigued by the vehemence that people who question the vaccine are subjected to...

Simple. You see it as questioning, others see it as baseless scaremongering - which has a major effect on the health (and indeed the lives) of children.

[Katman]

Simple. You see it as questioning, others see it as baseless scaremongering - which has a major effect on the health (and indeed the lives) of children.

Cheers.

Forgive me if your response doesn't answer any of my questions though.

[idb]

I'm equally sure that there are a number who base their argument on far more than that.

Like I've said before, I actually have no personal investment in this argument. I don't have to decide whether to subject a child to the MMR vaccine or not.

I'm more intrigued by the vehemence that people who question the vaccine are subjected to.

We've been shown cases of gross misadventure in the past with the likes of thalidomide.

Let's hope we're not witnessing another such debacle.

(And that's entirely without mentioning the whole Tuskagee idea).

Thalidomide?!
You're going back that far?
Do you not think there has been enough time passed for the safety of the MMR vaccine to be well studied?

[Katman]

Thalidomide?!
You're going back that far?
Do you not think there has been enough time passed for the safety of the MMR vaccine to be well studied?

Have you ever wondered about the vast increase in the number of vaccinations given these days and what effect that could be having on one's natural immune system?

[Maha]

Thalidomide?!
You're going back that far?
Do you not think there has been enough time passed for the safety of the MMR vaccine to be well studied?

It's because he has really short arms, which coincidentally didn't help is less than amateur boxing as a teen.

[idb]

Have you ever wondered about the vast increase in the number of vaccinations given these days and what effect that could be having on one's natural immune system?

Yeah, they would help boost your immune system...which is one hell of a coincidence because that's what they're supposed to do.

[Oscar]

Have you ever wondered about the vast increase in the number of vaccinations given these days and what effect that could be having on one's natural immune system?

Way to show your ignorance on the subject...

[Katman]

Way to show your ignorance on the subject...

Perhaps you're just not recognising the distinction between natural immunity and acquired immunity.

[Oscar]

Perhaps you're just not recognising the distinction between natural immunity and acquired immunity.

Wow, you just can't help showing how dumb you are.
You have bugger all "natural" immunity as such.
Most of the immunity you have is acquired from your mother in the womb, or from your environment or from artificial sources.

[Katman]

Most of the immunity you have is acquired from your mother in the womb....

I think it can be taken as read that 'acquired from your mother in the womb' counts as natural.

The body has a number of means to protect it from the invasion of a pathogen.

I just wonder whether bypassing those means, by injecting the pathogen directly into the system, might not be rendering some of those other means less effective.

[idb]

I think it can be taken as read that 'acquired from your mother in the womb' counts as natural.

The body has a number of means to protect it from the invasion of a pathogen.

I just wonder whether bypassing those means, by injecting the pathogen directly into the system, might not be rendering some of those other means less effective.

My understanding of how immunisation works is that a weakened or dead pathogen is introduced into your body and your body naturally develops an immune response.
Isn't that natural?

[Katman]

My understanding of how immunisation works is that a weakened or dead pathogen is introduced into your body and your body naturally develops an immune response.
Isn't that natural?

Except that the defences on the outside of the body have been rendered redundant.

[Drew]

I think it can be taken as read that 'acquired from your mother in the womb' counts as natural.

The body has a number of means to protect it from the invasion of a pathogen.

I just wonder whether bypassing those means, by injecting the pathogen directly into the system, might not be rendering some of those other means less effective.


Except that the defences on the outside of the body have been rendered redundant.What external defenses? Skin and hair are the sum total of our other defenses from pathogens.

Everything else is antibodies inherited or developed.

[idb]

Except that the defences on the outside of the body have been rendered redundant.

I don't understand.

[Katman]

What external defenses? Skin and hair are the sum total of our other defenses from pathogens.

Everything else is antibodies inherited or developed.

There's the ability of nasal passage secretions to trap pathogens 'outside' the body, for a start.

[Drew]

There's the ability of nasal passage secretions to trap pathogens 'outside' the body, for a start.
You're of the opinion that immunized people don't produce as much snot?

[TheDemonLord]

There's the ability of nasal passage secretions to trap pathogens 'outside' the body, for a start.

Because that works so well against Airborne Pathogens like the Common Cold and Flu.

I mean, No one EVER catches those from breathing in......

[Katman]

You're of the opinion that immunized people don't produce as much snot?

Maybe it's down to the quality of the snot.

[Katman]

I'm becoming more and more of the opinion that if anyone ever attempted to force me to vaccinate a child (thankfully not going to be an issue) they'd be told to go fuck themselves.

And rest assured, if it should ever transpire that one day they start saying "whoops, perhaps we should have stuck to the three separate shots", I'll be back to ridicule you all mercilessly.

[Banditbandit]

Maybe it's down to the quality of the snot.

Maybe there's an injection for that ???

[Katman]

Maybe there's an injection for that ???

If there is, you should all form an orderly queue behind TheDemonLord.

<img src="http://i.huffpost.com/gen/403254/thumbs/r-LINE-OF-SHEEP-large570.jpg"/>

[TheDemonLord]

I'm becoming more and more of the opinion that if anyone ever attempted to force me to vaccinate a child (thankfully not going to be an issue) they'd be told to go fuck themselves.

And hypothetically - say your child caught something and then infected a child who couldn't (due to a Medical reason) get Vaccinated, and that Child died.

What would you tell their Parents?

Also Hypothetically - what would you tell YOUR child as they literally cough themselves to death (where the force of the Coughing is so strong that it rips the lining of the lungs, filling them with blood, slowly drowning your child in their own blood).


And rest assured, if it should ever transpire that one day they start saying "whoops, perhaps we should have stuck to the three separate shots", I'll be back to ridicule you all mercilessly.


And rest assured, if it should ever transpire that one day they start saying "The MMR-Autism link was completely fraudulent", I'll be back to ridicule you all mercilessly.

Oh Wait.....

[idb]

If there is, you should all form an orderly queue behind TheDemonLord.

<img src="http://i.huffpost.com/gen/403254/thumbs/r-LINE-OF-SHEEP-large570.jpg"/>

You haven't explained how your body's 'external defences' are reduced by vaccination.

[Bass]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11652078


Some interesting comments on both sides of the question - quite enlightening

[mashman]

And rest assured, if it should ever transpire that one day they start saying "The MMR-Autism link was completely fraudulent", I'll be back to ridicule you all mercilessly.

Oh Wait.....

How's the view up your own arse?

“That’s the deal . . ., that’s what I keep seeing again and again and again . . . where these senior people [at CDC] just do completely unethical, vile things and no one holds them accountable.”

[Katman]

How's the view up your own arse?

<img src="http://coast.webquest.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/crutching-1.jpg"/>

[Katman]

Also Hypothetically - what would you tell YOUR child as they literally cough themselves to death (where the force of the Coughing is so strong that it rips the lining of the lungs, filling them with blood, slowly drowning your child in their own blood).

You're still struggling to tell the difference between asking questions of certain vaccines and being 100% anti-vaccine, aren't you?

[TheDemonLord]

How's the view up your own arse?

“That’s the deal . . ., that’s what I keep seeing again and again and again . . . where these senior people [at CDC] just do completely unethical, vile things and no one holds them accountable.”

See, I can play that game too. (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/08/05/the-cdc-whistleblower-william-thompson-appears-to-have-gone-full-antivaccine/)

[TheDemonLord]

You're still struggling to tell the difference between asking questions of certain vaccines and being 100% anti-vaccine, aren't you?

No, I'm really not - We are talking about the MMR vaccine, Measles being the biggest vaccine preventable killer of children, even in the developed world the mortality rate is 1-2 in every 1,000.


Two children in the UK have died of measles since 2006; neither had been given the MMR vaccine.

You seem to struggle with the concept that we give Children vaccines so they don't die of horrible and preventable diseases.

[Katman]

No, I'm really not - We are talking about the MMR vaccine, Measles being the biggest vaccine preventable killer of children, even in the developed world the mortality rate is 1-2 in every 1,000.



You seem to struggle with the concept that we give Children vaccines so they don't die of horrible and preventable diseases.

I'm simply of the opinion that it would be wiser to err on the side of caution and revert to the three individual shots administered over a period of time.

You know, sort of like Andrew Wakefield recommends.

[mashman]

See, I can play that game too. (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2015/08/05/the-cdc-whistleblower-william-thompson-appears-to-have-gone-full-antivaccine/)

bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa... a beat up piece, priceless. A man who has overseen decades of research is now a nutter coz he's changed his story :killingme. Your arse is a dark place... but doesn't look out of place on your shoulders.