ESE's works engine tuner

[bucketracer]

After seeing that crash TeeZee said he is not brave enough to peddle his Bucket at 160mph or more around the Island

[husaberg]

After seeing that crash TeeZee said he is not brave enough to peddle his Bucket at 160mph or more around the Island

Fair call i would say it cost Marvic a fair bit of dough though.:mad:

Koosman (Not sure of the spelling, but used to make nice yokes as well) in the USA used to do a roaring trade making std wheels wider and 18 into 17 etc'
It was quite a lot alike how the steel wheels were widdened on Ford Escorts and the like back in the day.
You could then widen your options for donor wheels.
I would guess that the 125 and 250 have lighter wheels the NSR250's had options of Magnecks not sure of the widths though.
Might be too skinny and too fat.

[Frits Overmars]

Chambers has been able to seal the spoke nipples and make his spoked wheels tubeless.There is a bit more to a tubeless rim than just airtightness. A tire with an inner tube can move a bit in its bed without dire consequences because the tube will A: contain the air, and B: push the tire back into position. Tubeless tires do not have this luxury. Therefore a tubeless rim has humps at the inner sides of the tire bed to keep the tire firmly in place and sealed at all times.
99% of tube-type rims have no inner humps. If you fit tubeless tires on them, you are flirting with death. That is not an exaggeration; it has happened.
If you insist on wire-spoked wheels with tubeless tires, be sure to use dedicated rims with inner humps.

[husaberg]

There is a bit more to a tubeless rim than just airtightness. A tire with an inner tube can move a bit in its bed without dire consequences because the tube will A: contain the air, and B: push the tire back into position. Tubeless tires do not have this luxury. Therefore a tubeless rim has humps at the inner sides of the tire bed to keep the tire firmly in place and sealed at all times.
99% of tube-type rims have no inner humps. If you fit tubeless tires on them, you are flirting with death. That is not an exaggeration; it has happened.
If you insist on wire-spoked wheels with tubeless tires, be sure to use dedicated rims with inner humps.

http://easterndirt.com/Product%20Reviews/tubliss.jpghttp://www.btosports.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000007/NUETECH-TUBLISS.jpg
Unfortunately these are not available in 17 but you get the idea.

It's not about going tubeless for the sake of eliminating tubes. It's all about the countless benefits of going TUbliss® that makes every rider and racer better, faster, and more in control.
TUbliss® is, essentially, a high pressure rim lock and seal that secures the entire tire bead to the rim, completely eliminating the use of a conventional tube. TUbliss® allows you to run a low tire pressure (as low as 10 psi) which dramatically improves traction; especially important for enduro and baja racing. Since there's no conventional tube, the days of pinched tubes and flats are over! Even if you get a tire puncture, the bead stays seated to the rim.
The 100 psi TUbliss® inner bladder literally clamps the entire bead and side wall of the tire to the rim, providing full bead lock performance around the full circumference of the rim. The seal is formed against the inside of the tire itself, not the rim, so it holds the tire firmly and makes the sidewalls stay upright and absorb the full impact, unlike bending and deflection you get with conventional tubes. Because of the design, TUbliss® will even work with the most dented, dinged, or tweaked rim.
Tubliss Benefits
Tubliss SizesImproved Traction.
TUbliss® secures the bead so securely that it allows a low tire pressure for improved straight line traction without the risk of a pinch flat or tire bead slippage. Because Tubliss® means you can much lower tire pressures, traction is improved which is especially important for Baja and Enduro riders. You have no tubes to be concerned with, so lower pressure with Tubliss® means you'll never pinch a tube! Replace old technology with a stronger, modern and efficient system. Even if you get a tire puncture, the bead stays seated to the rim.
Virtually Flat Proof TUbliss® really is virtually flat proof when used with a tire sealant. Sealants can't work on tubes where holes in the rubber stretch and tear. With TUbliss®, your sealant works directly on the tire where it matters. Plus, the design of TUbliss® helps keep the tire seated on the bead and the sidewalls more stable, virtually making "flat wobbles" a thing of the past. Riders have reported riding longer and harder, completely unaware that they had a tire puncture.
Weight Savings TUbliss® also provides a weight savings of up to 3 pounds per wheel which instantly translates into less rotating weight and increases acceleration. Less unsprung weight allows significant suspension performance gains. Experts say that eliminating a pound of rotating unsprung weight is equivalent to dropping 5 pounds of static weight!
Runs Cooler Without the weight and friction of a conventional tube installed, tire temperatures are greatly reduced. This also eliminates tire pressure increases during the course of a moto.
Rim Protection TUbliss® protects the rim from dings and dents by holding the tire firmly and making the sidewalls stay upright and absorb the full impact, unlike bending and deflection of conventional tubes.
http://tubliss.com/

[TZ350]

... http://tubliss.com/ ...


There is a bit more to a tubeless rim than just airtightness. A tire with an inner tube can move a bit in its bed without dire consequences because the tube will A: contain the air, and B: push the tire back into position. Tubeless tires do not have this luxury. Therefore a tubeless rim has humps at the inner sides of the tire bed to keep the tire firmly in place and sealed at all times. 99% of tube-type rims have no inner humps. If you insist on wire-spoked wheels with tubeless tires, be sure to use dedicated rims with inner humps.

Interesting about the tubeless rims, thanks for the heads up.

[F5 Dave]

Trials bikes run tubeless rears at about 3psi, sadly not in rim sizes you'll want to use.

[F5 Dave]

Crank stuffers; What type of plastic do manufacturers use for crank webs fillers?, CRs for example. Needs to cope with a bit of heat, but also not deform enough to make the retaining screws loose. Doesn't look opaque like Acetal. More translucent like some Nylons, but nylon is pretty soft.

[dinamik2t]

Crank stuffers; What type of plastic do manufacturers use for crank webs fillers?, CRs for example. Needs to cope with a bit of heat, but also not deform enough to make the retaining screws loose. Doesn't look opaque like Acetal. More translucent like some Nylons, but nylon is pretty soft.

I think it's Teflon!

[FastFred]

Crank stuffers; What type of plastic do manufacturers use for crank webs fillers?, CRs for example. Needs to cope with a bit of heat, but also not deform enough to make the retaining screws loose. Doesn't look opaque like Acetal. More translucent like some Nylons, but nylon is pretty soft.

PVDF perhaps, just guessing though, it would be interesting to know for sure.

PVDF looks like Teflon, but cheaper and is used when parts need to be moulded and have similar properties to Teflon.

Wiki

Polyvinylidene fluoride, or polyvinylidene difluoride (PVDF) is a highly non-reactive and pure thermoplastic fluoropolymer produced by the polymerization of vinylidene difluoride.

PVDF is a specialty plastic material in the fluoropolymer family; it is used generally in applications requiring the highest purity, strength, and resistance to solvents, acids, bases and heat.

It has a low density (1.78) and low cost compared to the other fluoropolymers. It is available as piping products, sheet, tubing, films, plate and an insulator for premium wire. It can be injected, molded or welded and is commonly used in the chemical, semiconductor, medical and defense industries, as well as in lithium ion batteries. It is also available as a crosslinked closed cell foam, used increasingly in aviation and aerospace applications.

And

""Hylar® 301F PVDF is a versatile engineering plastic with a balance of physical properties that qualify it for high performance service in a wide range of applications.""

http://www.solvayplastics.com/sites/solvayplastics/EN/specialty_polymers/Fluoropolymers_Coatings/Pages/Hylar_PVDF.aspx

[Haufen]

Crank stuffers; What type of plastic do manufacturers use for crank webs fillers?, CRs for example. Needs to cope with a bit of heat, but also not deform enough to make the retaining screws loose. Doesn't look opaque like Acetal. More translucent like some Nylons, but nylon is pretty soft.

When I made some stuffers for a crank a couple of years ago, I think I chose POM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyoxymethylene). Unfortunately, I have never run that crank, yet. But it was fun making the inserts.

[Frits Overmars]

Crank stuffers? An Aprilia RSW125 has a TDC crankcase volume of 650 cc. An RSA125 has 675 cc and a bit more power. See where this is going?

[F5 Dave]

yes, but where in the crankcase was the volume concentrated?

if for example one had the 'compromise' of having a clearance over the web to case of 1mm or above to limit shear, but otherwise had as little volume in the web area, - and more area underneath the transfers to draw easily from; -would that be a perceived advantage, rather than have to pull from the violently rotating webs?

Indeed incomplete webs are effectively paddles thrashing more air about in an already turbulent area. Just thinking about the comment of the incoming gasses & the rotation of the crank web comments as well.

Might be totally wasting my time, but I'm sure there are people who have done this sort of analysis. Ohh look. We have smart researchy people in attendance.

[TZ350]

Here is a pic of cranks for Aprilia 250.
Full circle, full width, plenty of Mallory, high inertia, very low in cycle speed variation, lots of power and overev - why isnt your crank like this??

264053


Crank stuffers? An Aprilia RSW125 has a TDC crankcase volume of 650 cc. An RSA125 has 675 cc and a bit more power. See where this is going?

264049

Suzuki GP 125 crank with the balance holes plugged.

If the Aprilia 125 crank doesn't have these balance holes and is like the Aprilia 250 that Wob posted. Would it be better to stuff the Suzukis balance holes then get volume by increasing the crank case size or doesn't it matter about part of the case volume being in the rapidly rotating crank?

[Farmaken]

Isn`t the big end also a fairly effective paddle that we cannot do away with ??

How much difference would partial webs and unfilled balance holes really make to crankcase turbulence given that other piece of steel wizzing up and down and around:blink:

Buggered if I Know

[Yow Ling]

yes, but where in the crankcase was the volume concentrated?

if for example one had the 'compromise' of having a clearance over the web to case of 1mm or above to limit shear, but otherwise had as little volume in the web area, - and more area underneath the transfers to draw easily from; -would that be a perceived advantage, rather than have to pull from the violently rotating webs?

Indeed incomplete webs are effectively paddles thrashing more air about in an already turbulent area. Just thinking about the comment of the incoming gasses & the rotation of the crank web comments as well.

Might be totally wasting my time, but I'm sure there are people who have done this sort of analysis. Ohh look. We have smart researchy people in attendance.

Dont worry I not one of them, why would the mixture come from round the spinning cranky things , there is nothing going on there to pump anything, my mental moddeling just has a blob of gas mix under and around the piston that gently bumps the mixture waiting in the transfers into the cylinder. With what frits says about the rsa and rsw ccv's , would indicate that the pipe is more involved than the crankcase compression in filling the cylinder

In saying that Wobbly is using some aluminium stuffers on my crank, i think this has to do with the paddle problem.

in this thread is the stuffing http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130142699#post1130142699

[F5 Dave]

I'm doing my very best to make a decent reedblock intake on the MB engine, but it is still a compromise & the lower flow will hit the webs so I can't make web covers like on Yowlings engine, so just trying to minimise turbulence in that flow area.

[F5 Dave]

Hmm, pdvf isn't the most common beastie.

[twotempi]

What about old-fashion cork araldited in the crank web holes.

And you get to drink the wine as well. ( Hickkk !)

Try it and see if you can detect a difference on the dyno.

If you can't detect an increase then don't bother doing anything more.

A lot less work AND if it comes loose it will not lock the engine up.

The easiest and cheapest way to save weight on a small bike is to buy a pair of running shoes.

As Fritz said DON'T. repeat DON'T use tubeless tyres on rims that don't have the retainer bead/hump. Or could you please leave your bike to me in your will. I reckon a 50/50 chance of collecting it!!!!

[F5 Dave]

cork won't stay in the web cut outs (incomplete web). I was intending on trying it, but clearly Frits for example will likely know if it is a waste of time, but I'm assuming the RSA cranks were full circle for a reason. I don't have a heap of time to try everything I want, so very happy to learn without having to make every mistake myself.

[husaberg]

cork won't stay in the web cut outs (incomplete web). I was intending on trying it, but clearly Frits for example will likely know if it is a waste of time, but I'm assuming the RSA cranks were full circle for a reason. I don't have a heap of time to try everything I want, so very happy to learn without having to make every mistake myself.


I have seen some stuff in another forum where some stuffers used by Yamaha have melted into the big end with well the result you would expect.
There are replacement ones on Ebay as well
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&item=260834543947&nma=true&rt=nc&si=XQmjLS4eR1c6v%252BnYv7dxbDplLTo%253D&vxp=mtr&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/$(KGrHqUOKiUE15eIWI!mBNiVY,PdMw~~_12.JPGhttp://i.ebayimg.com/00/$(KGrHqYOKi4E00hikfDvBNiVYeNZKg~~_12.JPG
Having said that i have seen epoxy (like devcon) used for porkchop old Villiers shitters.
They used to drill in screws then the epoxy over it to attach it more securely to the webs.
As well as hollow section stuffers to fill in half circle cranks on other Villiers as well welded or brazed together and too the crank.

[speedpro]

I've seen a crank in a bucket with screws into the crank webs and then carbon string wound all round them and then resin tipped in while the crank was in a mould. End result carbon-fibre filler for a full circle crank.

[Yow Ling]

I've seen a crank in a bucket with screws into the crank webs and then carbon string wound all round them and then resin tipped in while the crank was in a mould. End result carbon-fibre filler for a full circle crank.

Sounds like a wind up to me

[husaberg]

cork won't stay in the web cut outs (incomplete web). I was intending on trying it, but clearly Frits for example will likely know if it is a waste of time, but I'm assuming the RSA cranks were full circle for a reason. I don't have a heap of time to try everything I want, so very happy to learn without having to make every mistake myself.

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/3822/crankfilling1.jpg
Have a look here there are people who have successfully used Cork and other methods on RZ500's
http://www.rzrd500.com/500phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10085&sid=c7845519ba655935b9f906fd0ff1930c

[2T Institute]

Made a nylon stuffer in place of the original plastic one 'someone' broke when rebuilding a KDX200 crank. Still in there today.

[Frits Overmars]

yes, but where in the crankcase was the volume concentrated?
if for example one had the 'compromise' of having a clearance over the web to case of 1mm or above to limit shear, but otherwise had as little volume in the web area, - and more area underneath the transfers to draw easily from; -would that be a perceived advantage, rather than have to pull from the violently rotating webs?
Indeed incomplete webs are effectively paddles thrashing more air about in an already turbulent area. Just thinking about the comment of the incoming gasses & the rotation of the crank web comments as well.Good point, Dave; in fact several good points.
Most of the volume is concentrated in the transfer ducts. Then there is the volume inside the piston of course, and the 1 mm shear-avoiding clearance at all surfaces of the crank.
But that is not nearly enough volume. If you take another look at the Aprilia crank below left, you will notice that the space between the crank webs is the same as the space needed for the big end bearing. In other words: the crank webs have flat insides, good for another 60 cc or so, if I remember correctly.
Additional benefits: the con rod has an easier time pushing the mixture aside as it moves between the webs, and the big end bearing gets a lot more cooling and lubrication because it is not shrouded in any way.
Because there are no overhung bobweights, the crank webs are stuffed with tungsten to get the balance factor right.
In the RSA125, the con rod was lengthened from the RSW's 115 mm to 120 mm to create even more crankcase volume.

The paddling is a mixed blessing; it creates aerodynamical drag but it also greatly improves the homogenity of the mixture.
Smooth, full-circle crank webs have the advantage that there is little mixture hiding in nooks and crannies. An example of it's importance: in a certain engine there were 20 mm spaces between the crankshaft bearings and the seals. these ill-accessible volumes acted as pneumatic dampers on the crankcase pressure fluctuation. Filling those volumes with plastic bushes gave a measurable improvement.

Summary: you need a large crankcase volume. Ideally all of this volume should be situated in the transfer ducts. In real life you will also need to lodge part of this volume between crankshaft and piston, i.e: use a long con rod. Avoid nooks and crannies. Crankshafts should be small and smooth. Big end bearings must never be shrouded by recesses in the crank webs or by stuffers.

The picture right below shows, wait for it, an RSA125-crank with stuffers...
After Jan Thiel went into retirement in 2008, some geniuses at the factory grabbed their chance to 'correct' the errors that Jan left behind, without even testing the result because 'everybody knows the smaller the crankcase volume the better'. But they never could understand why a 2011 RSA125 was slower than a 2007 model (just look at the 125 cc top speeds on any GP-track). O, the joy of working with Italians.....

[TZ350]

Thanks for that .......

I guess the ballancing hole stuffers stay but I could look at opening up the inside of the crank.

The present RGV250 rod is 105mm and if I want to try more case volume I could use a 110mm RZ350 rod.

[Frits Overmars]

I guess the hole stuffers stay but we will look at opening up the inside of the crank.
The present RGV250 rod is 105mm and if I want to try more volume I could use a 110mm RZ350 rod.:niceone: ...

[TZ350]

Thanks Frits, your input helps a lot .... there is only so much time and effort possible and your comments give me confidence about the direction to take.

[Frits Overmars]

Thanks Frits, your input helps a lot .... there is only so much time and effort possible and your comments give me confidence about the direction to take.Be careful with that, TeeZee.
We drive on the right side of the road; you drive on the wrong side. We will not mention driving in Italy... (but Teheran or Calcutta cannot possibly be worse:wings: ).

On a more serious note: I just took a look at the crank web + pin you showed above. As a rule-of-thumb the web material around the crank pin hole should have a thickness of at least 50% of the pin diameter. I'm afraid yours hasn't. And I am not even regarding the large bevel....

[dinamik2t]

We will not mention driving in Italy...

A driver in Italy has the right to drive in any road line, direction, parks, pavements etc and still, if that leads to an accident, it's always the other guy's fault - even if he's a pedestrian :crybaby:

[TZ350]

I just took a look at the crank web + pin you showed above. As a rule-of-thumb the web material around the crank pin hole should have a thickness of at least 50% of the pin diameter. I'm afraid yours hasn't. And I am not even regarding the large bevel....

264088

50%,I had thought about it but like fork rake and trail I didn't know the numbers ... so thanks for the heads up.

264086

Original Suzuki pin and rod are on the left.

The bigend hole was bored out to 22m so that I could use a 110mm RZ350 rod or a 105mm RGV250 one. The Suzuki rod has a 14mm L/E pin and the RZ and RGV have 16mm L/E pins and 16 allows a greater selection of pistons and increased case volume.

264091

The inner faces of the flywheel have been machined back a little and test fitting a RGV250 rod. I use original RGV silver caged bigend brgs with individual rollers. But for test fitting etc an old RD B/E with trapped rollers is much easier to work with.

264087

There is not much room around the bigend available for ballancing. I plan on using Mallory slugs pressed into the counter weight area on the next crank.

264090

The crank was skimmed 1mm all over for a 2mm clearance in the cases. Red line is the smaller 2mm clearance crank.

264098

It’s one of the beauties of Buckets, pretty much everything is a compromise as things are mostly cobbled together from something else and it’s the key to Buckets affordability.

Not many people myself included have the resources to build something like a crankshaft completely from scratch but most people can cobble different bits together to make something special. Like addapting wheels from one make of bike to another like is often done with FXR150's or fitting an RG400 cylinder to a Kawasaki bottom ends or other tricky stuff.

[dinamik2t]

TZ, that's a huge difference from 27.6 to 30.3hp !! Everything else was the same (jetting, advance etc)?

-------

I was searching randomly about head designs and found this at the bimotion (http://www.bimotion.se/) page:

264095

Especially on the second paragraph, the zero-radius stage transitions and inner curves seem to work as pockets of low velocity gas, that in their turn work as a heat barriers. And that would be the reason of the anti-detonation effect of toroid design.

[TZ350]

TZ, that's a huge difference from 27.6 to 30.3hp !! Everything else was the same (jetting, advance etc)?

I was searching randomly about head designs and found this at the bimotion (http://www.bimotion.se/) page:


Interesting about the Toroid head.

I have just re-checked, and Ooops I refered to the wrong post and graph.

264100

The Red line is the smaller crank with 2mm clearance. (the original post is on page 155) I am not sure why the improvement is all at the bottom end and drops of earlier at the top.

[husaberg]

Dont worry I not one of them, why would the mixture come from round the spinning cranky things , there is nothing going on there to pump anything, my mental moddeling just has a blob of gas mix under and around the piston that gently bumps the mixture waiting in the transfers into the cylinder. With what frits says about the rsa and rsw ccv's , would indicate that the pipe is more involved than the crankcase compression in filling the cylinder

In saying that Wobbly is using some aluminium stuffers on my crank, i think this has to do with the paddle problem.

in this thread is the stuffing http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130142699#post1130142699

I though a lot of the volume reduction was because you were going from 125 to 100cc as well.

From memory the NSR (Vanessa) reworking in thie intake and crankcase area will need to be much less radical
Vanessa's crank to destroke to 50mm ish however requires a smaller pin otherwise it will overlap the main bearing journals. (You already have the correct stroke there Mike what was i thinking)
This is why my first thought was to use a different crank and i think i may have found one now will suit.
The main problem was the unusual (for Honda) spline. (Gee Honda What were you thinking)
Wob says of course the std crank can work worked around with welding machining and holes done with electric arc etc.
But the budget is in danger of being stretched past its original limit. (Plus i want to use as many std parts as possible)

[Frits Overmars]

...The Red line is the smaller crank with 2mm clearance. (the original post is on page 155) I am not sure why the improvement is all at the bottom end and drops of earlier at the top.Helmholtz frequency, my dear Watson. The smaller crank will give the pipe more crankcase volume to breathe from. This larger volume will also lower the resonance frequency of the inlet system, hence the drop at high rpm. It can be compensated with a shorter inlet tract, a bigger carb diameter and a later inlet closure. To put it real simple: if you have more volume, you need more time to fill it. But more time, i.e. later closure, has adverse effects at low revs. So my preference is a shorter tract (unless you go the 24/7-way and employ a reed for the low revs, and swing it out of the way at high revs).

[bucketracer]

264100

The Red line is the smaller crank with 2mm clearance. (the original post is on page 155) I am not sure why the improvement is all at the bottom end and drops of earlier at the top.


Helmholtz frequency, my dear Watson. The smaller crank will give the pipe more crankcase volume to breathe from. This larger volume will also lower the resonance frequency of the inlet system, hence the drop at high rpm. It can be compensated with a shorter inlet tract, a bigger carb diameter and a later inlet closure.

To put it real simple: if you have more volume, you need more time to fill it.

Now that makes sense .....

[bucketracer]

Page 520 .... the last ten pages were mostly about what some wheels weigh, ATAC valves and crank stuffers.


More questions for the wise ones,
How good does the seal around the butterfly need to be : should there be clearance to allow for expansion of the flap ??
How critical is it to have the butterfly open into the ex, stream? ( mine is going to be about 5mm from the inside wall of the header when open and close to 10 when closed )


I am not wise but if you have a look on Ebay Cr125 about 1986 there are plenty. Remember it opens Parallel to the flow as well not into it.

IE with the butterfly offering as little as poss restriction to the flow as possible.
You can bet big money Honda did a fair bit on testing to come up with there configurations for the std bikes.The bottom one has a spacer to increase volume.

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Honda-1986-CR-125-Cylinder-ATAC-Power-Valve-Exhaust-Manifold-Chamber-/00/s/MTA2NlgxNjAw/$%28KGrHqNHJEgE8oY,psQNBPToW+Jdi%21%7E%7E60_57.JPG
NS400r not so many around

http://nwracing.no/snaps/atac02.jpg

Atac valves






To increase low end power Wobbly has pointed me towards the Honda ATAC system, he tells me that they had some success with the idea on the BSL500. He sent me this picture and some pointers on where to put it on the header.

241414

"As close to the flange as you can, and get the throttle plate as close to the header as you can to reduce the ill effects when its closed at hi rpm......... Wob"

Other Bits and Bobs about the ATAC system that I scraped from the net........

ATAC System: The Honda Automatic Torque Amplification Chamber system works by effectively increasing or decreasing the volume of the exhaust system with a small butterfly valve located just before the exhaust connection.

A few pictures here:- http://www.scooterhelp.com/moto.barrels/honda.cr250.84_85.overview.html
A bit of YouTube of a guy working on his ATAC http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY7D0jLcfws

Atac and vtac differ very little. Vtac is a resonator chamber like kips, with only one inlet/outlet where atac is a bypass chamber with a in and out yet it doesn't block the main exhaust flow even when open so it very much acts like a resonator.

241367 241376

241373[/ATTACH


The throttle plate or whatever you design must seal well.
I did a sliding flat plate with a hole in it design like they use in fuel injection throttle plates, that worked well on Champ winning jetski, as this got the plate real close
to the header and there was very little flow disruption when closed.
A small leak into the cavity will kill power real quick with an ATAC system.


Geee those bare wheels don't weigh much.

Std RS front 6 lbs or 2.7kg and rear 7 lbs or 3.2 kg.

Conversion assistant http://www.convertunits.com/from/lbs/to/kg

I weighed a set of RS wheels with disk tire sprocket etc.

RS complete Front wheel 8.0kg complete Rear wheel 9.5kg

compaired to:-

Wire complete Front wheel 9.0kg complete Rear wheel 9.5kg
FZR complete Front wheel 9.0kg complete Rear wheel 12.0kg


Complete RS swing arm 3.5kg and FZR swing arm 4.5kg.

Although I am not that convinced about the accuracy of bathroom scales for measuring anything, they at least give an indication of the wheels relative weights.

I might have a FZR400 front, I will dig it out and have a look.




Interesting clip on pipe building, I often wondered how they get those nice neat welds.


So this is where I am up to so far, Butterfly valve seems to be a long way from the header ID so plan B is to make up a spool valve like a Yamaha power valve and fit it in the same place as the collar which is currently on the header so that the OD of the spool is flush with the header ID when closed .http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/smilies/blink.gif
[ATTACH=CONFIG]263880263879263881


So TZ , say you were thinking of making your own barrel , engine or even spacecraft. You could read this thread http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=18727.0 and steal and adapt some of this guys rapid prototyping ideas.


There is a bit more to a tubeless rim than just airtightness. A tire with an inner tube can move a bit in its bed without dire consequences because the tube will A: contain the air, and B: push the tire back into position. Tubeless tires do not have this luxury. Therefore a tubeless rim has humps at the inner sides of the tire bed to keep the tire firmly in place and sealed at all times.
99% of tube-type rims have no inner humps. If you fit tubeless tires on them, you are flirting with death. That is not an exaggeration; it has happened.
If you insist on wire-spoked wheels with tubeless tires, be sure to use dedicated rims with inner humps.


Dont worry I not one of them, why would the mixture come from round the spinning cranky things , there is nothing going on there to pump anything, my mental moddeling just has a blob of gas mix under and around the piston that gently bumps the mixture waiting in the transfers into the cylinder. With what frits says about the rsa and rsw ccv's , would indicate that the pipe is more involved than the crankcase compression in filling the cylinder

In saying that Wobbly is using some aluminium stuffers on my crank, i think this has to do with the paddle problem.

in this thread is the stuffing http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130142699#post1130142699


I've seen a crank in a bucket with screws into the crank webs and then carbon string wound all round them and then resin tipped in while the crank was in a mould. End result carbon-fibre filler for a full circle crank.


Good point, Dave; in fact several good points.
Most of the volume is concentrated in the transfer ducts. Then there is the volume inside the piston of course, and the 1 mm shear-avoiding clearance at all surfaces of the crank.
But that is not nearly enough volume. If you take another look at the Aprilia crank below left, you will notice that the space between the crank webs is the same as the space needed for the big end bearing. In other words: the crank webs have flat insides, good for another 60 cc or so, if I remember correctly.
Additional benefits: the con rod has an easier time pushing the mixture aside as it moves between the webs, and the big end bearing gets a lot more cooling and lubrication because it is not shrouded in any way.
Because there are no overhung bobweights, the crank webs are stuffed with tungsten to get the balance factor right.
In the RSA125, the con rod was lengthened from the RSW's 115 mm to 120 mm to create even more crankcase volume.

The paddling is a mixed blessing; it creates aerodynamical drag but it also greatly improves the homogenity of the mixture.
Smooth, full-circle crank webs have the advantage that there is little mixture hiding in nooks and crannies. An example of it's importance: in a certain engine there were 20 mm spaces between the crankshaft bearings and the seals. these ill-accessible volumes acted as pneumatic dampers on the crankcase pressure fluctuation. Filling those volumes with plastic bushes gave a measurable improvement.

Summary: you need a large crankcase volume. Ideally all of this volume should be situated in the transfer ducts. In real life you will also need to lodge part of this volume between crankshaft and piston, i.e: use a long con rod. Avoid nooks and crannies. Crankshafts should be small and smooth. Big end bearings must never be shrouded by recesses in the crank webs or by stuffers.

The picture right below shows, wait for it, an RSA125-crank with stuffers...
After Jan Thiel went into retirement in 2008, some geniuses at the factory grabbed their chance to 'correct' the errors that Jan left behind, without even testing the result because 'everybody knows the smaller the crankcase volume the better'. But they never could understand why a 2011 RSA125 was slower than a 2007 model (just look at the 125 cc top speeds on any GP-track). O, the joy of working with Italians.....


Interesting about the Toroid head.

I have just re-checked, and Ooops I refered to the wrong post and graph.

264100

The Red line is the smaller crank with 2mm clearance. (the original post is on page 155) I am not sure why the improvement is all at the bottom end and drops of earlier at the top.


Helmholtz frequency, my dear Watson. The smaller crank will give the pipe more crankcase volume to breathe from. This larger volume will also lower the resonance frequency of the inlet system, hence the drop at high rpm. It can be compensated with a shorter inlet tract, a bigger carb diameter and a later inlet closure. To put it real simple: if you have more volume, you need more time to fill it. But more time, i.e. later closure, has adverse effects at low revs. So my preference is a shorter tract (unless you go the 24/7-way and employ a reed for the low revs, and swing it out of the way at high revs).

[Frits Overmars]

To put it real simple: if you have more volume, you need more time to fill it.
Now that makes sense .....Specific Time Area explained in 12 words. It's not yet as short as E=mc² , but I'm working on it :rolleyes:.

[F5 Dave]

so if TZ is working with a 24mm carb restriction he has likely found the limit of crankcase volume. Fortunately my 100 will run any size carb I wish.

Thanks for the insights Frits, it has simultaneously confirmed\challenged\turned a few of my idea upside down.

So I'll have to think a bit more, but I definitely have some things to work on.

[Frits Overmars]

You're welcome, Dave.
so if TZ is working with a 24mm carb restriction he has likely found the limit of crankcase volume.To the superficial reader that would seem as if the crankcase volume was too large. I would prefer to formulate it like this: TZ350's combination of crankcase volume, inlet tract length, inlet diameter and inlet timing is running out of breath at high revs.
I would rather shorten the tract, increase the diameter (if allowed) or lengthen the timing, in that order, and preserve (or even enlarge) the crankcase volume.

[TZ350]

interesting article:
http://motortecmagazine.net/article.asp?AID=1&AP=1

Far to many strokes for my liking; but horses for courses.

Thanks Bert, that was a very interesting read ....

[bucketracer]

TZ350's combination of crankcase volume, inlet tract length, inlet diameter and inlet timing is running out of breath at high revs.

I would rather shorten the tract, increase the diameter (if allowed) or lengthen the timing, in that order, and preserve (or even enlarge) the crankcase volume.

Increased inlet diameter (24mm taper bored carb) and shortening the tract length (short pumper cart carb) and inlet closing points as late as 85 ATDC have been tried and got worthwhile results.

264158

TeeZee's idea of a plenum was to get around the restriction of a 24mm carb by allowing the motor to draw through an increased inlet diameter from a plenum full of fuel mixture.

264157264159

Changing the length and diameter of the inlet runner is easyish.

I think TeeZee has plans to re visit this idea so he can increase the crankcase volume. Fuel dropout and guarantied lubrication were problems encountered with the initial efforts with the plenum.

[wobbly]

Back from forced holiday - happy to give you a 115 racing style RD400 rod to help increase case vol TeeZee.

[TZ350]

Back from forced holiday - happy to give you a 115 racing style RD400 rod to help increase case vol TeeZee.

I would be interested in looking at that.....

Got a few things to do first though, I am away all of next week to Greymouth, when I get back I want to get the Beast running again and test a 30mm carb in back to back tests with the 24. If the 30 gives more power, ie the 24 has started to choke then it will be worth giving the plenum another shot.

On the side I am building a completely new motor with a much bigger inlet, I would be interested in running the RD400 rod and some Mallroy slugs for ballancing in that.

[Yow Ling]

While I was messing around with this other engine, I realised it would be possible to use it to experiment with Frits's 24/7 concept.
As it has both a reed induction system and a rotary valve, I figured it could be made to work if it was possible to control the slides of 2 seperate carbs independently without too much brain strain for the rider. I tried thinking of mechanical means to do this but failed miserably.

So if we had 2 carbs and one twist grip why not use 2 servo's one for each carb and a potentiometer connected to the throttle control.
ther would be no rv where one used to be, but that carb would stay closed untill the engine was making power, when the servo controlling the other carb would close the reed carb slide and another servo could open the rV carb.

Its not really any different than the fly by wire throttle on some motoGP bikes. might be a bit tricky to manage the transition
Could use stepper motors instead of servos

264171

[TZ350]

While I was messing around with this other engine, I realised it would be possible to use it to experiment with Frits's 24/7 concept.
As it has both a reed induction system and a rotary valve, I figured it could be made to work if it was possible to control the slides of 2 seperate carbs independently

Thats clever thinking, I am impressed ......

[husaberg]

While I was messing around with this other engine, I realised it would be possible to use it to experiment with Frits's 24/7 concept.
As it has both a reed induction system and a rotary valve, I figured it could be made to work if it was possible to control the slides of 2 seperate carbs independently without too much brain strain for the rider. I tried thinking of mechanical means to do this but failed miserably.


264171

Why can't you use a split cable with a cam to control the opening with another ramp or linkage like a XR250 RE/RF or a control box like a Twin Carb Starmaker?
Failing that plenty of cars have old 2 and 4 barrel equipped have mechanical secondaries.

The fly by wire is cool as you could program in the feel and adjust for trottle response say slower in lower gears or wet (traction control) etc. A lot of cars have them Falcons etc

[Yow Ling]

Why can't you use a split cable with a cam to control the opening with another ramp or linkage like a XR250 RE/RF or a control box like a Twin Carb Starmaker?

Because by doing it with electronics you can control the overlap etc easily , using a cam means having lots of cams to try and get it right

[husaberg]

Because by doing it with electronics you can control the overlap etc easily , using a cam means having lots of cams to try and get it right
Look above (ie the last line of my post) I think you replied why i was looking for a picture of the Starmaker set up.

You of course need not have to make so many cams just ones with a lot of holes on differing radius and he transition could be controlled with cable adjusters. Not as trick obviously as electronics.

Talking with Yow he said of course he wants to totally shut the first carb when the second will open (when switching over to the disk induction.)
I was trying to think of a linkage that works like that that like a trigger on a rifle or a overcetre on a wind up toy etc.
when i thought why not a ratchet mechanism like a kick start. For the primary carb?

[Frits Overmars]

While I was messing around with this other engine, I realised it would be possible to use it to experiment with Frits's 24/7 concept. As it has both a reed induction system and a rotary valve, I figured it could be made to work if it was possible to control the slides of 2 seperate carbs independently without too much brain strain for the rider.... There would be no rv where one used to be, but that carb would stay closed untill the engine was making power....You might want to take a look here: http://kreidler.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=38866 . Don't be put off by the writing; that is what Dutch looks like.
Never mind, all pictures are in English and so is the video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMDJcSqpImM<!-- m --> ).

In the video the piston-controlled carb is set for a high idle. The second carb is opened much too early but nevertheless you can hear it is contributing to the revs.
Getting the carburation spot-on may become a nightmare though. Closing the first carb while the second one opens, will not make much difference so you may as well leave the first one open. But clean carburation is essential for lap times. That is why I want injection (is that allowed in bucketracing?)

The above example with a piston-controlled inlet plus a permanently open inlet is one of the options I considered over the years. But I think he simplest solution is my present approach with just one inlet, just one carburetter (until the injection becomes available) and a simple reed that is swung out of the way (can be done by the powervalve-servomotor).

[Yow Ling]

You might wanna take a look here: http://kreidler.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=38866 . Don't be put off by the writing; that is what Dutch looks like.
Never mind, all pictures are in English and so is the video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMDJcSqpImM<!-- m --> ).

In the video the piston-controlled carb is set for a high idle and the second carb is opened much too early but nevertheless you can hear it is contributing to the revs.
Getting the carburation spot-on may become a nightmare though. Closing the first carb while the second one opens, will not make much difference so you may as well leave the first one open. But clean carburation is essential for lap times. That is why I want injection (is that allowed in bucketracing?)

The above example with a piston-controlled inlet plus a permanently open inlet is one of the options I considered over the years. But I think he simplest solution is my present approach with just one inlet, just one carburetter (until the injection becomes available) and a simple reed that is swung out of the way (can be done by the powervalve-servomotor).

Hi Frits, Dutch is fine, my parents used to use it all the time. Fuel injection is fine for buckets, just too hard on wallet and you kinda need to like electronics. I have it on my old Fiat 500. I thought by separating the functions of the carbs would help to make it tunable. with injection directly into the crankcase I guess that would solve all those problems, maybe create some new ones.

[Bert]

...... Fuel injection is fine for buckets, just too hard on wallet and you kinda need to like electronics. .......

The following could be an option (about the same $$ as a FCR carb and spares; Damm the exchange rate) and offers a programmable ignition as well:
http://www.mbe-motorsports.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/22/products_id/190?osCsid=nk8a9i6qgeaah1kh1lp0dlbdl3

In the MBE forum they talk about a two stroke kit (but it has gone from the website) using two injectors (theory was: one very small-bottom end, normal size-rest of the range, both together at the topend). largest throttle body looks to be 28mm.
and if you look hard enough there is a turbo kit as well...

But it would still take some work to get it functioning with a two stroke.
I'm guessing the best starting point would be to log a map sensor on a standard carb to get an idea of air flow rates vs. RPM.
then start building a fuel map around the ideal A/F ratios.

[dmcca]

In the MBE forum they talk about a two stroke kit (but it has gone from the website) using two injectors .

These guys have already been mentioned here before but seem to have updated their kits recently... This is their 2 injector kit...
http://www.ecotrons.com/2_Stroke_Small_Engine_EFI_kit.html

[bucketracer]

264158

TeeZee's idea of a plenum was to get around the restriction of a 24mm carb by allowing the motor to draw through an increased inlet diameter from a plenum full of fuel mixture.

264157264159

Changing the length and diameter of the inlet runner is easyish.

I think TeeZee has plans to re visit this idea so he can increase the crankcase volume. Fuel dropout and guarantied lubrication were problems encountered with the initial efforts with the plenum.


These guys have already been mentioned here before but seem to have updated their kits recently... This is their 2 injector kit...
http://www.ecotrons.com/2_Stroke_Small_Engine_EFI_kit.html

To get around fuel dropout in the plenum, maybe a 24mm throttle body on the inlet to the plenum in place of the carb and fuel injectors inside firing into the secondary intake tract.

[twotempi]

May I come and watch the first run of this setup - preferably from a safe distance.

[husaberg]

Frits and Wob

if you were to design a 100-125 2 stroke from scratch what would it look like?

IE would the architecture follow the layout of a Rotax based single.

[Frits Overmars]

Frits and Wob, if you were to design a 100-125 2 stroke from scratch what would it look like? IE would the architecture follow the layout of a Rotax based single.For me: FOS symmetrical schavenging, 24/7 inlet system, continuously variable transmission; not even remotely related to a Rotax based single.

[dinamik2t]

Speaking of the dual pipe FOS, Frits, is it possible to make a dual-to-single 2T pipe to match the performance of two singles? E.g. two seperate headers going into one diffuser or two headers-diffusers going into one belly? Have you ever tried anything like that?
On a two cylinder engine, I imagine it won't be easy, as with the two seperate pipes you can have control over temperatures and cooling with minor changes between the two pipes' dimensions. With the single cylinder symmetric system, would it be easier?

[Frits Overmars]

It would be nice if I could join both headers of my FOS cylinder into a single diffuser for package reasons, but it is impossible because as the picture below shows, those headers are much too short, due to the high rpm this cylinder layout permits.
Joining the headers of a twin cylinder engine is possible but you will not get the power of two separate exhausts.
In theory you can get massive power if you use the blowdown pulse of one cylinder to supercharge its neighbour, because that blowdown pulse is much, much stronger than any reflected pulse. But in order to make that work both exhaust ducts have to face each other so there can be a very short connection, plus you'll need an exhaust timing of well over 200°.

[koba]

It would be nice if I could join both headers of my FOS cylinder into a single diffuser for package reasons, but it is impossible because as the picture below shows, those headers are much too short, due to the high rpm this cylinder layout permits.


So, how is your FOS project going?

I fully appreciate if you can only release limited information but it sure sounds interesting.

[Frits Overmars]

So, how is your FOS project going? I fully appreciate if you can only release limited information but it sure sounds interesting.It is slowly moving forward, Koba. If I would win the lottery (the chance is rather small because I'm not playing) things would move a whole lot quicker.
As it is, with two-stroke GP-racing killed by Dorna, funding is hard to find and I am relying on friends. They are enthousiastic which is heartwarming, but they have their own obligations so everything takes time.

[F5 Dave]

. .. If I would win the lottery (the chance is rather small because I'm not playing) . . .
If you look at the maths your chances don't increase appreciably. I say if you're going to get lucky you might as well push the boat out & expect luck to overcome that insignificant obstacle.

As luck would have it, I got an email the other day. . . :rolleyes:

[F5 Dave]

Just been thinking about trying to make a new manifold for a reedblock, so that's simple enough, a mikuni type spigot bolted to a block of ally that bolts to the reedblock.

But I'm trying to think of a clever way to make a few different stuffers to try out. I'm using a TZR250 1KT 6 petal block & trying to get a block of acetal to fit tight in there & then bore & port it sounds like a wind up. . .

. . . .. Actually I think I'm answering my own question. I have a perished block as well & could cut that in half which at least would mean I could see what I was doing.

I'm dubious of all these wings & stuff, but just want to fill in the corners so the velocity doesn't stall, esp when using the 32mm carb leaves a heap of space (the 36 won't be such an issue).

Bit like the pic on the right, but without the cut outs.

Any other ideas for fabrication?

[husaberg]

For me: FOS symmetrical schavenging, 24/7 inlet system, continuously variable transmission; not even remotely related to a Rotax based single.

Sorry the Rotax remark was alluding to the right side power output and left side clutch (kind of like a real Husaberg.)

But as it not disk i guess, it maters not.

[Frits Overmars]

Just been thinking about trying to make a new manifold for a reedblock, so that's simple enough, a mikuni type spigot bolted to a block of ally that bolts to the reedblock. Try to keep the length down, Dave. That is especially important if you are using a small-diameter carb.
I'm using a TZR250 1KT 6 petal block & trying to get a block of acetal to fit tight in there & then bore & port it sounds like a wind up. . .I'm dubious of all these wings & stuff, but just want to fill in the corners so the velocity doesn't stall, esp when using the 32mm carb leaves a heap of space (the 36 won't be such an issue).Good approach.
Any other ideas for fabrication?I used to use the rubbery stuff that is used to fit car windows. You can model it with a wet finger and it stays somewhat elastic.

[Bert]

Just been thinking about trying to make a new manifold for a reedblock, so that's simple enough, a mikuni type spigot bolted to a block of ally that bolts to the reedblock.

But I'm trying to think of a clever way to make a few different stuffers to try out. I'm using a TZR250 1KT 6 petal block & trying to get a block of acetal to fit tight in there & then bore & port it sounds like a wind up. . .

Any other ideas for fabrication?

Hi Dave; I've been pondering the same thing (using the same reed block) to provide better downdraft carb options (i.e. RGV carbs) and offering better clearance for building a full airbox.
the plan was to weld on two internal wings (and grinding them to the correct shape) then filling and shaping the cavity with rubber resin.


...I used to use the rubbery stuff that is used to fit car windows. You can model it with a wet finger and it stays somewhat elastic.

Thanks Frits. That's a very interesting solution; have you found any issue with reaction to fuel or heat?
(I'm guessing not as you wouldn't suggested it in the first place)...

[F5 Dave]

Hmm, I have some of that stuff from when I had a car. That was in the late 80s so maybe it might have gone off by now. Never would have thought it would have coped but heck I'm game to give it a try, thanks for the idea. Might even splash out for a new tube.

[2T Institute]

Horizontal splitters work by directing intake flow at the reed tip where it bends the easiest, loses the least amount of inertia. As a test hit a reed petal with compressed air from your air cleaning nozzle you'll be surprised how much it moves.

[wobbly]

I have done plenty of reed blocks fitted with alloy wing shaped splitters and then filled the cavity with Devcon.
The Devcon also can be shaped with a wet finger, so it doesnt stick.
I make the wing from 5mm plate with a full front radius tapering to a point that sits under the petal tips.
The real trick with the wings is to position the foil offset vertically a few mm, this forces the flow in a bent manifold to equalise
the lift on all the reed petals instead of pushing most to the top.
In a back to back on a flow bench test this gained around 12% of flow at the same pressure drop, and was worth around 2 Hp in a 44 Hp old KX125 - this is why dead straight intakes/downdraft work so well.

[F5 Dave]

Ahh, ok more good ideas to try. Must admit I thought the various bars were just a carry on from Enid Boyson trying to come up with another marketing gimmick back in the late 80s, what was it the 'Boyson bar'? But again I'm happy to be proved wrong.

My 32mm RGV carb is downdraft straight shot, but my 36 KX carb I will run with a bend to start with & progressively straighten to see what angle I can get away with, but it is unlikely to be totally straight as the pilot cct at the front & could flood at some point.

The lower reed will have some part of the crank to climb over but I want both parts of the reed to flow so the wing is starting to make a bit more sense now I think about it.

I think the 32 & the 36 will require different approaches, fortunately I have two 1KT blocks out of my old 350 barrels + a grogous one to cut up if needs be.

Thanks.

[Frits Overmars]

...The real trick with the wings is to position the foil offset vertically a few mm, this forces the flow in a bent manifold to equalise the lift on all the reed petals instead of pushing most to the top.....this is why dead straight intakes/downdraft work so well.The wings also lessen another problem with bent manifolds. Without the wing the flow will centrifuge to the outside which will overload the outside reeds so they need to be thicker than the inside reeds that seem to have eternal life. These hard outside reeds create a lot of flow resistance. The soft inside reeds would offer less resistance to the flow, if only there was any flow to speak of on the inside of the bend...
Adding the wing (preferably curved) allows the use of softer outside reeds and makes better use of the inside reeds' flow area.
But nothing beats a dead straight inlet tract without a wing.

[gamma500]

Hey guys!

I found some nsr500 engine pics! http://www.geocities.jp/noda_keni/h/00nsr500/00nsr500.htm

[F5 Dave]

Very interesting. Look how tight those webs are packed in there, Honda seem to have kept their love of high ratios.

& I apologise for misspelling Eyvind as Glenn pointed out, memory must be failing.

I can see two different blocks coming on for the different carbs & thus manifolds, thanks for the ideas 2T, Wob & Frits.

[F5 Dave]

Hey here's an odd one. I pulled out the piston from a mates GG dirty bike with 72mm bore. He bought it low hours & has ridden it quite a bit. Piston shows some wear but pretty good.

But checked the ring end gap: 0.3mm! Hells teeth. That's tight for a 300. It didn't look like anyone had been in there before so we have a bike with decent hours on it & rings are super tight close. std spec is 0.5 with 0.8 limit. Wonder how close they were from new?

I would have thought this close on a big bore would have closed the tips up & bulged them. Above ports are perfect with no scoring & cylinder in general looks sweet.

Putting a Wossner in this weekend. Did one in mine a few months back & I went to the bother of filing the end gap to 0.5. Wonder if I should bother?

Are these clearances over protective?

[wobbly]

Very old rule of thumb was 4 thou per inch of bore, so at 72 its near as damn it 3"= 12 thou = 0.3mm = perfect ring gap.

[Frits Overmars]

At 01.30 AM it took me some thinking to kick out the inches and the thou's. But I finally worked it out.
That rule of thumb says: ring gap = 0,4% of bore. Jan Thiel found this to be critical; we use 0,5% of bore as a minimum.
Using too wide a gap may loose you some power. Using too tight a gap may turn the ring into a very effective oil scraper which can lead to a giant seizure.

[F5 Dave]

yeah I just had a look at Wiseco figures & seems ok & manual seems over conservative. So I wonder how tight it must have been when new to be 0.3 now?

my 50 loses a good 2hp when the ring wears much past 0.3

[husaberg]

Hey guys!

I found some nsr500 engine pics! http://www.geocities.jp/noda_keni/h/00nsr500/00nsr500.htm

Hondariffic

There was a while back a set of NSR500 cases on Ebay if memory serves me correct.
i have some pics off a forum if i can find the pics i will post them.
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh231/thofton/nsr500ENGINE01.jpghttp://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh231/thofton/nsr500ENGINE03.jpghttp://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh231/thofton/nsr500ENGINE02.jpghttp://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh231/thofton/nsr500ENGINE04.jpg
They were a little out of the bucket racers budget though.
There were also some Honda cylinders reputedly from a NSR500 available as well later on.

[F5 Dave]

Shiny rods aren't they?

[2T Institute]

HRC by-passed all the C,B and A kit stuff with the NSR 500. Never seen rods that long on a 125cc HRC cyl.

[TZ350]

Work had me in Greymouth the last week.

While I was there it was great to catch up with Husaburg, and he lent me some old karting mags from the 60's.

264344

He knew I am interested in building an Ariel Arrow vintage racer and I was looking to establish that Tillotson style pumper carburetors and hydraulic disk brakes were in common use pre 63.

Looking through the mags and sure enough the pumper carbs are there and even a Ariel Arrow engine in a Kart but most interestingly there was a Wiesco advertisement offering copper cylinder heads for air cooled engines.

Walking around town I came across a shop on the corner of William and Guinness St. With lots of interesting old bits and bobs like miners helmets, lamps, hand made model trains and steam engines and an old BSA in the window.

264346

I went inside and found it was a regular Aladdins Cave.

264347

I was told this is a bike Burt Munroe re-built for a friend.

264348

A BSA B33 in front of a Bantam and another vintage bike. The BSA is an original AA road side rescue bike used when the roads around here were mostly gravel.

264349

Another classic/vintage bike, an aero engine, old school microlight and 4-5 vintages cars.

264345

The ceiling is covered with model aeroplanes.

[TZ350]

Aladdins Cave

In reality the Store is the local Hose & Hydraulic Centre. Phone Fax (03) 768 9068 specializing in Hydraulink fluid connectors, Robin Engines and everything to do with hydraulic hose and coupling service.

264350

The shop has plenty of Hydraulic Stock, everything you could need, but even at the counter there is other interesting things to see.

264353

Like the Willys jeep

264354

and Bradford van

264351

and old radios

264355

stationary engine and something else buried under there

There used to be lots of interesting places around the country like this, and this has to be the best of them that's left.

Made all the more interesting because its not just some sort of musem but a real working enviroment with the biggest range of hydraulic hose and fittings you could imagine.

264352

I am very grateful to Robin Gray for taking the time to show me around. It was a great morning looking at some very interesting stuff and talking about motorcycles and racing.

[husaberg]

As a contrast to the NSR500 stuff here is sme YZR500 internals

http://www.siegertyamaha.com/MotorradVerk/C224b.jpghttp://www.siegertyamaha.com/MotorradVerk/C224a.jpghttp://www.siegertyamaha.com/MotorradVerk/C224c.jpghttp://www.siegertyamaha.com/MotorradVerk/C224d.jpghttp://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn53/TeeZed/YZR500Jugs010.jpghttp://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m333/gozos/Copiede052.jpghttp://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQpj5zrZnOP8cKtYwdJtiecCv1qk4sjo IiIleg8CD09ZeXiGF-zHlxr4OVshttp://www.greenhamracing.supanet.com/500%20engine%202.jpghttp://www.blatawcm.com/redbull/images/Tech/YZR5003x.jpghttp://www.greenhamracing.supanet.com/500%20engine%201.jpghttp://farm8.staticflickr.com/7160/6736213757_e1e28c448e_b.jpg

Contrast the crank to both the RS250 and NSR500
http://www.siegertyamaha.com/MotorradVerk/C61a.jpghttp://www.geocities.jp/noda_keni/h/00nsr500/00nsr-17.jpghttp://www.classic-motorbikes.com/scripts/show_image.asp?ImageID=128269http://www.geocities.jp/noda_keni/h/00nsr500/00nsr-5.jpghttp://www.geocities.jp/noda_keni/h/00nsr500/00nsr-8.jpghttp://www.geocities.jp/noda_keni/h/00nsr500/00nsr-9.jpghttp://www.geocities.jp/noda_keni/h/00nsr500/00nsr-11.jpg

Came appon this to 6 cylinder RG750
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2790/4446349118_84a49bba13_o.jpg
http://teamheronsuzuki.blogspot.co.nz/2010/03/6-cylinder-rg750.html

[dinamik2t]

Tz, the shop reminded me of the old grocery stores! I love the tool and equipement stores!
You can search for days and always find one new part you 've never seen before! They're also a huge source of inspiration for "custom" solutions to problems. :cool:


----

About the (Yamaha now) Tz, would there be a photo from the side of the crank? Seems to have a lot of holes (& crank weights?)
I never agreed with the dual boost approach of Yamaha.. (but then again, who am I?). Why have the window area decreased by the 50-60* axial angle, while you can have it decreased by 10-20* - in a rear/B TFR?

[Frits Overmars]

Happy Birthday, Jan Thiel!

[dinamik2t]

264404

Happy birthday indeed! Hope he has a look here. :)

[husaberg]

I enjoyed talking to you Rob inbetween league training, baby sitting, badminton, bike fixing, fault tracing etc maybe next time i will be able to take you on a tour of some other aladans caves.

But Evan Grooby's shop is sure packed with stuff. It is on one of the corners for the Motard section of the Street circuit next to the jump
Did you get to look at the foundry down the road?

I have spoken about this bike before.Ok its not the place to post it (cause it be diesel)but it will get the most traffic here.

It was bloody fast for a bike that was 130cc.......
Funny thing is. i always thought the shock working in extension well it looks like it is pretty standard Britten like set up.
It also looks impressively short as well as a current looking steep steering head.

Oh happy birthday Jan.:drinknsin

[TZ350]

As we are talking about Small Hondas, heres how to get rid of the total loss battery ignition and have a push and go.

264470

This is the typical Total Loss Battery Ignition System and is very similar to an Energy Transfer or Magneto Ignition Sytem and could be converted fairly easily.

264416

Here are details on how to convert the Hondas alternator to a Energy Transfer Magneto system.

And how Gordon Jennings converted a CB450 to Energy Transfer Magneto.
http://www.race-uscra.com/linksfiles/engineeringanddesignfiles/HondaIgnition/Jennings (http://www.race-uscra.com/linksfiles/engineeringanddesignfiles/HondaIgnition/Jennings) Honda Magneto Cycle 1969.pdf

264418

Hondas version of a Low Tension Magneto System.

264419

And Energy Transfer Mag.

[F5 Dave]

Just for Husi & his love of the Evil Empire

I'm currently recreating my 100cc engine & fixing many of the mistakes from 16years ago (& probably adding new ones & overlooking others). Here is an improvement based on the original, but now with 60% more offensiveness.

##nd# has again been ground off the cases, but this time the lettering is more obvious to the punter honing in for a spy photo:rolleyes:

Appropriately taken on top of the dustbin.

[husaberg]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRcafULbSiJM0aCvXdaYXoYBy67UoLeL 8x_EYA_87xselelr6yq-EaWzXXI

Just for Husi & his love of the Evil Empire

You too in time may come to appreciate the Dark side.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=264427&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1338705293
Until then stop looking at your sister that way.

PS there is like 11 Yamaha pics in my post above plus a Suzuki.

[chrisc]

Unsure if it has been posted already, sorry if it has, but I thought this was of interest:
The Hossack Engine
http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2012/05/15/the-hossack-engine-a-square-piston-two-stroke/

[F5 Dave]

Yeah that looks like a real powerhouse.

[Haufen]

To reduce drag between the crankcase and the crankwebs, what should be the minimum clearance again?

[dinamik2t]

Frits have said no less than 1mm anywhere.

[Ocean1]

Yeah that looks like a real powerhouse.

Biased port timing, what's not to like?

Other than the nightmare seal issues...

[Haufen]

Frits have said no less than 1mm anywhere.

found it, thanks!


1 mm should be enough to avoid the viscous drag.

[F5 Dave]

Biased port timing, what's not to like?

Other than the nightmare seal issues...
Well the test ride seemed driveway slope assisted. Ok its easy to mock another's radical idea, its not like I could have come up with that let alone build it.

[Frits Overmars]

.. its not like I could have come up with that let alone build it.I've had the idea in my head for over a decade but I never considered using a square-bore piston. I still don't ....
Before you ask: I just thought of the spherical piston/rod as a theoretical possibility. I would not dream of building it (well, maybe in a foul-stroke...)

[speedpro]

There is no requirement for any piston depth other than to make a connection to the rod and somewhere for a seal to be placed. Thinner the better really.

[Ocean1]

Ok its easy to mock another's radical idea, its not like I could have come up with that let alone build it.


I've had the idea in my head for over a decade

Don't you just hate it when other people have your ideas... first?

I didn't think of this, but it's very very cute.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0CmGJucRDBk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[SwePatrick]

rocking piston would be a bad idea theese days when they are hunting emissions.

You´ll get a very odd burn when piston is tilting at top and squishband will alter around the piston.
And the fact it will be hard to balance it too.
all weight is 'wobbeling' none is constant reciprocating(spell?).

Rgds.

[2T Institute]

Helps if your cursed with French blood, but the tacho is in English to borrow Frits' phrase. seems to come on at 8, kick at 10, again at 12 and go through to 13, 200.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKqLZjYTQIE&feature=related

[Frits Overmars]

...seems to... go through to 13,200.If you're a motorcycle journalist that is sent on his way with 'safe' carburation, and to 14,500 if you are a GP-rider in a hurry.

[F5 Dave]

Stunning. Derbi know how to make a pretty bike,.

[wobbly]

Yea , the shift lights come on at 13200 just as it starts to get going - journalist safe as you say Frits.

[twotempi]

Probably a dumb question but ...........

Is the Derbi the same as an Aprilia RSA/W 125 ??

The bike had an Aprilia tacho dash unit.

[Frits Overmars]

The Aprilia RSW started in 1987 as a Rotax engine and evolved into a real Aprilia engine over the years. The RSA was designed by Jan Thiel and built in 2005-2006 at Derbi in Spain as the DRVE 125.
In the meantime Aprilia had gotten on the brink of bankruptcy because it had payed way to much money for the old Guzzi factory which turned out to be worthless,
a helmet-wearing law was passed in Italy which lead to a collapse of scooter sales, and all the profits (and then some) from the two-stroke racing department had been sunk into the four-stroke Cube project (the three cylinder GP-bike, designed by Cosworth).
Aprilias main creditor was Piaggio which already owned Gilera and Derbi. And when the Piaggio-accountants got control of Aprilia, they decreed to close two of the three racing departments and keep only the largest one (Aprilia) open. So the DRVE emigrated to Italy and was rebaptized RSA.
So from 2007 on, Aprilia, Gilera and Derbi GP-racers were identical except for their tank badges.

[F5 Dave]

. . . because it had payed way to much money for the old Guzzi factory which turned out to be worthless,
. . .
:scratch: Like it didn't take a soothsayer to work that one out, Guzzi hadn't been a force since, what? the 60s? What were they thinking?

[2T Institute]

Yea , the shift lights come on at 13200 just as it starts to get going - journalist safe as you say Frits.

I always thought it was so when the journo told the team he hit the limiter here, here and there the mechanics could make universal 'wanker' gestures behind the journo's back .:lol:

[TZ350]

... changed the ports and skimmed the top of the cylinder to get the squish closer to 0.6mm. All this to take 0.35mm of the top of the barrel, we do go to some trouble to get the details right.

OK, after doing a lot of work getting the timing and squish right Thomas and I dynoed the 3ex cylinder up tonight.

264649

And things didn't go so well.

264650

Warmed it up OK and the first runs were knocking on 30hp then the power started dropping off. Re-checked the compression and it was only 120 psi hot where it was 150psi cold before the dyno session, so not looking good there.

264651

Ignition curve is much tamer than before.

After going to so much trouble, it gets tiring having to re do things but I will get the cylinder of tomorrow and find out what went wrong.

[speedpro]

To me that still looks like a lot of advance in the middle.

[wobbly]

The combination of port and pipe is firmly set at 12,000 so this is what I would use as a baseline.
Its initial drop off is to get it to idle well from the big static, plenty of mid advance for throttle response and then enough for a good peak ( assuming correct com cc ) but falling further to help revon.

[Farmaken]

That`s a bugger TZ, still seems a lot of advance in the curve you are using.
My fiddlings with the Mota programme show a lot of heat and temp with those adv. numbers ( for my engine at least )

I have settled on 11* @ 11000
8* @ 12000
6* @ 12500 and up

Any more than that shows temps and press. way above where a Honda RS 125 is happy living (according to the Mota example files)

But then I could be miles away too ???

[dinamik2t]

@ Farmaken

Never mind the Mota temp indications.. I was very concerned a couple of years back, as you are.
Mota's peak cyl temp of 2400C for RS is far away from the 2650-2700C that EngMod2T predicts. And the latter seems to be a far better simulator.:(
I get about 2800 if I set 15* ADV at max torque RPM (with air-booming.. sorry -cooling).
I am not sure what's the deal with this measure, but I think I remember Wob telling us not to care much about it, rather look at the max unburnt zone temp (target: >900C). But Mota doesn't calculate it..


@TZ

Yes, why use so much advance in the overrev? I assume you got better results that way, eh? Can't you try leanning the mixture, instead of rising -decreasing in overrev- the timing ?
By the way, do you have a wideband/lambda meter? It would be very interesting to monitor the AFR during testing.

In general though, it's not bad at all. Ok, it's a new setup and you're starting already almost at the top of the previous one! :msn-wink:
So, don't worry, you'll get it figured out and it shall reach the figures you espere!

[F5 Dave]

just as a question Rob, have you recently used a timing strobe to check that what you ask for is what you get?

[bucketracer]

.

I got the job of setting up NedKellys IgniTech programmable Ignition.

If your not lucky enough to have a bike that Igni make a drop on ignition for then you have to setup one for yourself.

This is how we went about it with one of Team ESE's bikes and the dyno. Chambers is friendly with Mike and was able to get a bit of a deal on some dyno time.

223239

First step is to find TDC.

223240

Mark TDC and the Advance you want, we chose 15 degrees BTDC. and marked them on the fly wheel, the flywheel turns ant-clock wise so the advance is marked to the left of the TDC mark.

This does not have to be that accurate as its only needed as guide so you can see that the ignition is firing somewhere near the right place. The ignition will be optimized on the dyno later.

223236

The next move is to find the base advance.

223238

Ours was about 10 Degrees.

223237

The base advance is entered into one of those little box's in the program and initially the real advance is setup as a straight line in the curve part of the IgniTech program.

223242

With the ignition programed and the spark plug out, (but plugged into the HT lead and resting on the head) you can then use the Dyno's starter to spin the engine over. Then with the motor spinning over you can use a timing light see if you have got the initial advance more or less where you want it.

If the advance lines dont line up, you simply adjust the base advance setting and cylinder correction until they do.

<object height="385" width="480">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/JKt9OWnYdsQ?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="385" width="480"></object>

With the initial advance setup more or less where you want it, you are ready to rock and roll on the dyno optimizing the ignition curve.

The IgniTech software is very clever as changes to the ignition curve can be made on the fly and the Ignition itself re-programed while the engine is still running............

This is how we setup the Ignitecs ....

We use a timing light and the Ignitech base advance to match the initial ignition firing point (strobe flash) with the engines timing marks.

The initial setup is a little approximate but optimized on the dyno later. So we never know for absolutely sure if 15 deg BTDC is actually 15, it could be 13 or 17 as the accuracy is only as good as ones eye, a little inaccuracy in the initial setup will be reflected throughout the whole curve but doesn't matter that much.

As knowing the actual true advance to the last few minutes of a degree doesn't really matter, as its all about the bike enjoying the advance curve as seen by the dyno and track results and we only need a general idea of where its at.

Because the Ignitech display is only a visual aid to help with manipulating the ignition curve to suit the engine we are working with. It makes no real difference to the engine whether we know what the real numbers are or not.

The motor only sees the reality of the curve and accuracy between the displayed curve and reality is only as good as the initial timing light setup and the accuracy of that is only useful for visualizing the curve and discussing it with friends.

[speedpro]

Wow. Wobblies timing is even more advanced, but it does pull the advance out sooner and has surprisingly little advance at 12,000 considering his comment.

I take from this that the danger area is where the timing starts being taken out and not where it's at 28deg.

[richban]

I can't see how you will be able to set up a safe ignition with no brake on the dyno and not listening for knock. Or as mentioned a wide band lambda.

Could be reving over a potential engine killer. Could be wrong but seams thats what has killed a few engines lately.

I will be there myself soon my ignition arrived yesterday.

[bucketracer]

Yes, I had forgotten, TeeZee got one of those knock sensor things that Wobbly pointed out on Ebay. Its on TZ's desk, I will have to see if I can get it to work. Anyone tried one with an IgniTec and can give us a few tips. The Lambda sensor will have to wait until we can get away from leaded race gas I guess.

[dinamik2t]

talking

Bucketracer, why don't you use Ignitech's method of finding the base advance? Or even making your own, super accurate measures and welding a new lobe band at those exact measures??
http://www.webpagescreenshot.info/i/532897-67201213002pm.png
I believe that a +-1 error is not to be neglected. At 8k or 11k it might not be a problem, but at max power it can cost either power or pistons. So, why leave it 'inaccurate'? Factories -probably- tune at 0.1 accuracy!
..No, I disagree with your opinion on this.:(

edit
Now that I mentioned factory ADV curves, here's the ADV-PJ tuning tables from two season TZ250 I once found over the web:
264664264665264666

edit yet again
General tip for the wideband lambda sensors; they are unfortunately quite quickly damaged by the oil in mixture. Reading around says that the way to go is with an EGT and a CHT gauge, along with the Knock sensor.

[bucketracer]

Bucketracer, why don't you use Ignitech's method of finding the base advance? Or even making your own, super accurate measures and welding a new lode band at those exact measures??
I believe that a +-1 error is not to be neglected. At 8k or 11k it might not be a problem, but at max power it can cost either power or pistons. So, why leave it 'inaccurate'? Factories -probably- tune at 0.1 accuracy!

Thanks for the curves and I agree tuning the curve accurately is important, if you look at the video and post you can see I am checking the timing and adjusting it using the IgniTec base advance.

But only the motor knows the real advance to an accuracy of 0.1 and sure its important to get it right but that can only be done by testing.

My point was, that, the motor doesn't care what we think we know about the shape of the ignition curve, its only our friends who do and that gets us into a whole different world of accuracy of measurement and reporting.

[richban]

Yes, I had forgotten, TeeZee got one of those knock sensor things that Wobbly pointed out on Ebay. Its on TZ's desk, I will have to see if I can get it to work. Anyone tried one with an IgniTec and can give us a few tips. The Lambda sensor will have to wait until we can get away from leaded race gas I guess.

Andrew down here has some head phones that run through a little amp. You just attach a little alligator lip to the head and listen at different rpm under load. You can hear it det loud and clear. You can run A wide band lambda with 2 stroke's on Ave gas apparently. The main thing is to let it heat up to operating temp before starting the bike. Also if the bike is silly rich it will kill it fast.

[TZ350]

You can run A wide band lambda with 2 stroke's on Ave gas apparently. The main thing is to let it heat up to operating temp before starting the bike. Also if the bike is silly rich it will kill it fast.

Thanks for the tips.


Andrew down here has some head phones that run through a little amp. You just attach a little alligator clip to the head and listen at different rpm under load. You can hear it det loud and clear.

Yes we need a brake on the dyno, to load the motor at constant rpm and to also slow the drum after a run.

Headphone amp is easy, its the alligator clip I dont understand, how does that generate a signal that can be amplified? does it have some sort of mike attached? I would like to know more so I can make one.

[Bert]

Thanks for the tips.



Yes we need a brake on the dyno, to load the motor at constant rpm and to also slow the drum after a run.

Headphone amp is easy, its the alligator clip I dont understand, how does that generate a signal that can be amplified? does it have some sort of mike attached? I would like to know more so I can make one.

I've got a link somewhere (I'll dig it out) that shows one being built from Jaycar bits; but yes its a mic attached to the Alligator clip (on the ones I seen; not Andrew's one).

Here's a good link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L57fnOlWdaI

[dinamik2t]

Would you mean one of these?

http://www.d-series.org/forums/diy-forum/95756-diy-electronic-detonation-detection-det-cans-under-25-dollars.html

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0353


I though you guys purchased one of the LED indicators that Wob has suggested some time ago.:scratch:

[bucketracer]

Would you mean one of these?

http://www.d-series.org/forums/diy-forum/95756-diy-electronic-detonation-detection-det-cans-under-25-dollars.html


Thats what we needed to know, will get right onto it.




I though you guys purchased one of the LED indicators that Wob has suggested some time ago.:scratch:

:facepalm: would you believe we forgot about it, its still sitting on TeeZee's desk.

[dinamik2t]

:facepalm: would you believe we forgot about it, its still sitting on TeeZee's desk.

Aah.. Summer's here. Sun, alongside with girls in bikinis ... that's devestating for concentration. Hope you guys have as much beach-side as we do here in Greece. Let's grab a cold one and a straw hat and enjoy! :drinkup:

[richban]

Would you mean one of these?

http://www.d-series.org/forums/diy-forum/95756-diy-electronic-detonation-detection-det-cans-under-25-dollars.html

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0353

Thats the ticket. Yeah one of them.

[TZ350]

Aah.. Summer's here. Sun, alongside with girls in bikinis ... that's devestating for concentration. Hope you guys have as much beach-side as we do here in Greece. Let's grab a cold one and a staw hat and enjoy! :drinkup:

There is a bit of snow about in the South Island today but they are doing their best to keep the party going.

264676

beach party in the snow.

[wobbly]

Using the det sensor with lights makes it dead easy to shape the curve to suit the engine, you dont need a brake at all.
You can dyno load cycle the engine as fast as you like, and for the short period it may deto, in a small band of rpm - the lights go off like a Xmas tree.
Takes a bit of fiddling with sensitivity to get in the ballpark and read actual deto - not normal noise, as the det frequency is
determined by the bore diameter.
Just make sure the M8 bolt thru the Bosch sensor is tightly fixed to the head or case, with no washers to crush etc.
Data logging the sensor output against rpm is the trick way to go, but simply watching the revcounter and the lights to see where deto is happening during a pull, is easy.
Works just like the deto warning when running EngMod - see the warning and fix the excess advance before a rod comes thru your screen, your choice.

In this case we are dealing with an aircooled scenario - remember two things here, Avgas loves com to make power, and the pipe loves retard to get heat for revon power.
Whenever you have high com or lots of advance a larger % of the heat of combustion is directed out from the chamber into the finning, via mainly the ring contact with
the bore, reduce either or both and more heat ends up in the pipe, making it appear shorter due to the increased wave speed..
Thus when you are thermally limited by the finnings capability to reject heat, you must reduce the heat input by limiting the com.
This then means more heat is available in the pipe, so more power can then be made by upping the advance - just another balancing act.
Its a Catch 22 when there is high dynamic com - ie, when the engine is on the pipe,there is danger lurking, but below that point - the cylinder filling is so piss poor the only way to get good
throttle response off slow corners is to pile in plenty of advance - its safe as houses as there is very little effective com.
This engine has no powervalve so the cylinder filling efficiency comes on slowly, so you roll of the advance slowly, then pull it out quicker as the system starts to work well.
With a powervalve its the opposite - as soon as the valve starts to lift the efficiency increases dramatically, so the advance needs to be pulled out much quicker and sooner.
Any well set up race engine will love 28* below the pipe when running Avgas.

In one of the World Champ skis I did we had 35* of mid advance, as the only time it was in that band was at full throttle from a standing start.
It would jump real hard using that advance to generate cylinder pressure - but troll around on part throttle at that rpm and it would kill the engine by loosening the barrel nuts with rampant deto.

[F5 Dave]

but presumably in that situation you could get the TPS to tell the ign to back off 10 deg at less that full throttle, yes? That would save trawling round issues I assume?

I often go first warm up laps of the day quite calmly to get tyres warmed up/ cleaned off & brain in gear.

[wobbly]

Yep, easy to construct a 3D map with tps in the Ignitech by doing runs at 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 throttle.
Or use the technology properly and use the deto sensor output as well to tell the ecu to retard at any time/rpm when the deto is happening , on the fly.

[F5 Dave]

cool, but yeah one thing at a time & deto sensor is still . . .hmm, I'll have to look back & read up, car ones are virtually free. But think we needed a decent one to drive.

[F5 Dave]

hmm uses thread search:


As I said before the knockgauge that works with the Ignitech has an analogue output to ground.
When it detects deto it grounds an Ignitech input that is programmed to retard.
You can watch the lights and then manually take out timing to stop the deto, but the retard circuit of the knockgauge/Ignitech pulls out the timing
so quickly you may well miss this indication.
So I disable the retard initially to see where the advance curve needs to be changed, then reconnect it.
In this case the gauge is a failsafe.

See the pic above of the RSA - the Bosch deto sensor with 8mm hole is bolted to a head stud - that Thiel character was /is no idiot.



The 3 pole ones have 3 wires so dont know how these would be connected.
Most are 2 wire and are common to most late model cars, Audi, VW ,BMW, Subi etc, the plug is standard injector type.
Easiest is the one with 8mm hole thru the middle, they are rugged as hell, so rarely bust, whip down to wrecker and get one for jack shit with the plug connected.


Yes Sir! On a mission.

[F5 Dave]

That was easy, I don't think I've bought car parts before.

oh hold on, I got a carb for my 3.3 Vax-haul Victor back in the 80s when I owned a car.

[dinamik2t]

There is a bit of snow about in the South Island today but they are doing their best to keep the party going.

264676

beach party in the snow.
:doh:
Well.. At least you'll definately have the beers always cold!:p

-------

monsieur Wob, thanks for the analysis!
I confess you got me confused with the ADV though. I thought the 'common' 28 to 14 degrees was for unleaded GPs. If that is the case, combined with "unleaded likes less compression-more advance", the unleaded world would need to rise the latter higher than those numbers?
It's something that I was always curious about in EngMod too: eg at max torque + 15/14* ADV, TUbMax is below 900 and it won't detonate even with 16 or 17* of ADV - while power still rises. But I stopped at 15 due to peak cyl temps rising much above those of the RS/TZ example files..

[wobbly]

You must take into consideration the fuel being used, and how the factory engineers approached the problem.
Unleaded ( FIM that needs gloves and a respirator ) will go to 15:1 but must be run VERY rich to achieve best power with that level of com.
Leaded was run up at 19:1 in GP engines and at the end of the day the result was that the advance curves changed very little.
The big advance was in using the powerjet solenoids.
The unleaded scenario uses BIG powerjets ( 60 + ) to turn off the rich mixture past peak power.
The leaded setup was very lean at peak power, so only needed small ( 35 ) powerjets to keep the pipe temp up, over the top of the pipe.
Later of course that bastard Thiel came along and did the clever thing of PWM controlling the powerjet, thus even closer continuously matching the A/F ratio to the pipe
temp needed for max power.
Makes me sick just thinking about how clever he was, and how advanced the results became.
We are all just wankers floundering around in the mire of a mediocratic 2T wasteland - buckets.

[koba]

We are all just wankers floundering around in the mire of a mediocratic 2T wasteland - buckets.

Lovin it too! :msn-wink:

[Grumph]

We are all just wankers floundering around in the mire of a mediocratic 2T wasteland - buckets.

A literary - and literal - gem.

Put in large letters above your workbenches......and on T shirts too please.

[Bert]

We are all just wankers floundering around in the mire of a mediocratic 2T wasteland - buckets.

You been on the juice Wobbly ??

[TZ350]

We are all just wankers floundering around in the mire of a mediocratic 2T wasteland - buckets.

Something not go right for you today Wob? .... :(

[bucketracer]

We are all just wankers floundering around in the mire of a mediocratic 2T wasteland - buckets.

And as happy as a little pig in shit ...... :laugh:

264716

[wobbly]

Yea the genius was driven by a damn fine single malt bottle - but the sentiment was born of the frustration created when you think of
the achievements of Jan Thiel,and getting paid good money to have fun whilst doing it..
Though working for Mr W was something I refused to do, having Frits to argue with on a daily basis over strong coffees I would have loved.
The thing I am really pissed about is that my 400 F3 is running, and I cant throw a leg over it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ9EUBRHQ3U

[Henk]

Nice work mr Wobbly

[richban]

The thing I am really pissed about is that my 400 F3 is running, and I cant throw a leg over it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ9EUBRHQ3U

Well I hope you get some pleasure out of watching it kick some proper ass. Well done. Can't wait to hear it on track on full song. I want one.

[koba]

Yea the genius was driven by a damn fine single malt bottle

Wobbly juice.


Nice work on the F3 Bike.

[Yow Ling]

I hope the 400s work out for you wob, unlike the 450 diesels not so easy for dad and dave to knock up in the back yard, too much tricky 2t pokery going on in there to just guess how.

I think Ill just stick to the Wobbly 100 project though, I find buckets more than enough excitment for me, with a pre82 junior to calm down on

[TZ350]

Trying to get a F5 bike going for the Grandson

264743

Everything seems to take an age, just fitting a chain or gear lever takes forever to find the right parts and make them fit.

The big problem is the ignition. We want to get away from a total loss battery system and converting the alternator to an energy transfer magneto appeals, but it has its draw backs, in that it works at its best with a fixed ignition and we want to use the original Honda auto advance.

The plan is to use the low voltage output from the alternator and feed it backwards through a small 9V transformer. Then the high voltage from the mains side of the transformer can be feed to a CDI ignition. JayCar had a handy little CDI kit that would work with a points ignition system.

264744

Anyway as a prof of concept I connected the Honda alternator to a small transformer, connected a diode for half bridge rectification, a capacitor and Volt meter to the transformers 230V side. And by just pulling the back wheel over, I get 80 Volts DC.

So it looks possible, now if only I can find those JayCar CDI kits that I have about the place somewhere!!!!!!

[husaberg]

Trying to get a F5 bike going for the Grandson

264743

Everything seems to take an age, just fitting a chain or gear lever takes forever to find the right parts and make them fit.

The big problem is the ignition. We want to get away from a total loss battery system and converting the alternator to an energy transfer magneto appeals, but it has its draw backs, in that it works at its best with a fixed ignition and we want to use the original Honda auto advance.

The plan is to use the low voltage output from the alternator and feed it backwards through a small 9V transformer. Then the high voltage from the mains side of the transformer can be feed to a CDI ignition. JayCar had a handy little CDI kit that would work with a points ignition system.

264744

Anyway as a prof of concept I connected the Honda alternator to a small transformer, connected a diode for half bridge rectification, a capacitor and Volt meter to the transformers 230V side. And by just pulling the back wheel over, I get 80 Volts DC.

So it looks possible, now if only I can find those JayCar CDI kits that I have about the place somewhere!!!!!!

How come you don't use the 125s set up PS I know the crank snout and cam is different ?
Actually i have probably got all the bits spare here.

Failing that what about a pitbike inner rotor adaption

Re Wob.

The buckets (much prefer F4 or F5 though)are one of he last bastions of two strokes.

It's one of the last places where the two strokes are allowed to compete on (reasonably level) terms.

[Buckets4Me]

Trying to get a F5 bike going for the Grandson

264743


Robert say thanks Grandad :yes:

[TZ350]

The $26.50+gst JayCar CDI kit
264754
http://www.jaycar.co.nz/productView.asp?ID=KC5466&form=CAT2&SUBCATID=965#11

The CDI capacitors have to be charged up from a high Voltage source, usually the bikes original HV charging coils do the job but it could be from any thing that can produce 200-400 Volts AC (or DC) like a step up transformer connected to the bikes alternator, and there are several different trigger options.

[TZ350]

It's one of the last places where the two strokes are allowed to compete on (reasonably level) terms.

His Dad does have a reasonable RG50 but the Grandson finds it a bit fiddly to ride, maybe get him onto a Team ESE screemer later.

[F5 Dave]

His Dad does have a reasonable RG50 but the Grandson finds it a bit fiddly to ride, . . .
Send it down to me, I can tune it to completely unridable:lol:

[F5 Dave]

Looking forward to seeing a 400 on the track.

[Henk]

His Dad does have a reasonable RG50 but the Grandson finds it a bit fiddly to ride, maybe get him onto a Team ESE screemer later.

I'll ride the line trimmer and lend you a diesel

[husaberg]

Morley won the GP one year after making an ignition from a box of bits at the track on the morning of the GP. Wires were twisted together with a bit of tape. He is a super talented rider. I came 2nd behind Jimmy at Taupo one year, we lapped third place. I won the last Wigram GP in front of Ziffle, again we lapped 3rd place. My bike has come 2nd one more times than me. I'd been hauled away from Ohakune in an ambo and Jimmy had blown a crank so he jumped on mine and came 2nd behind Peter Steadman I think. The Shirriff 4T that won the GP dropped a valve the next time they started it. Pete Sales had a quick 125 4T and was coming 3rd at the GP one year with me chasing. Unfortunately for him the cam chain tensioner went "ping" about 100m from the line on the last lap. I pipped him, just.

Buckets are well fast enough now to head back to Wanganui again. I talked the Shirriffs into it one year and quite a few others. We did good and there was some very red faces when the racing ended, same thing at Nelson one year.


Found this for you Mike.

Also some old MT Wellys stuff all this was just in two Kiwi Riders.
Note the Eyles bike i posted a week back is mentioned.
I see Jasonu and Speedpro
Maybe that's what F4 and F5 need is some shameless self promotion.
Last ones are not buckets but are cool anyway..

[Kickaha]

That Wigram meeting was the first one I ever raced at, turned up for a look and Tony Mac and mark Buchart bullied me into doing a race , got lost with all their poxy cones part way through:laugh:

[Buckets4Me]

and now for a movie traller

Isle of Nan TT: Closer to the Hedge

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/PMW_wLrDSRE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

:niceone:

[ief]

Yea the genius was driven by a damn fine single malt bottle - but the sentiment was born of the frustration created when you think of
the achievements of Jan Thiel,and getting paid good money to have fun whilst doing it..
Though working for Mr W was something I refused to do, having Frits to argue with on a daily basis over strong coffees I would have loved.
The thing I am really pissed about is that my 400 F3 is running, and I cant throw a leg over it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ9EUBRHQ3U

That's some serious piece of kit, love it!!!

And with working FCR carbs, took a while but then you've got something :msn-wink:

:woohoo::violin::woohoo::violin::woohoo:

[speedpro]

Found this for you Mike.

Also some old MT Wellys stuff all this was just in two Kiwi Riders.
Note the Eyles bike i posted a week back is mentioned.
I see Jasonu and Speedpro
Maybe that's what F4 and F5 need is some shameless self promotion.
Last ones are not buckets but are cool anyway..

Odd, I always thought Ziffle came 2nd at Wigram.

[Frits Overmars]

Nice little riddle: this video was sent to me by a flabbergasted tuner who wonders how a running engine can blow back more air than it inhales...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aob8dgrnCjg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aob8dgrnCjg)

[wobbly]

Quote from me , nearly right.

The nominal reflection point of a wave front exiting a tube to atmosphere is around 1/2D past the end of the exit.
But this is only the nominal average for calculation purposes.
There will be alot of "air" movement well past this reflection point, and a piece of paper, free standing, will need very little pressure over its area to be deflected.
This sonic wave front, continuously hitting the paper at the forcing frequency of the intake will easily deflect the paper, backward, away from the bellmouth.
Close - or bullshit??

[Frits Overmars]

No bullshit - but no sigar either, Wob. It is simpler than that. The inhaled air enters the duct from all sides (hence the positive effect of a bellmouth),
but the blow-back shoots back out in a single column that hits the piece of paper in the video.
(Of course no running engine can blow back more air than it inhaled :p ).

[husaberg]

Odd, I always thought Ziffle came 2nd at Wigram.

He might have i was in the pits for pretty much all of it trying to stop my H100 spitting out flywheels.
Turned out the rotor side main was f-ed smashed one flywheel (might have gone a bit far with the lightening on that one though)and munted two stators figuring out (one not mine) what was happening . Add in the tap on the std tank MB5 i used and had never used one before or since (even though it was drilled) was acting as a mainjet. Plus many other stuff i have spent years trying to forget. (Like the stuff i forgot to bring Whoops)
Missed John Eyles crash as well. Shame it was a pretty trick bike. Real quick for a 130 cc 2 valve.

But it was more of a 50 track as i remember it far to tight for the big blocks LOL.

Thanks to whoever it was who loaned me an ignition (never got you name or have forgot), but he sent someone back home for it. So top bloke.

[crazy man]

He might have i was in the pits for pretty much all of it trying to stop my H100 spitting out flywheels.
Turned out the rotor side main was f-ed smashed one flywheel (might have gone a bit far with the lightening on that one though)and munted two stators figuring out (one not mine) what was happening . Add in the tap on the std tank MB5 i used and had never used one before or since (even though it was drilled) was acting as a mainjet. Plus many other stuff i have spent years trying to forget. (Like the stuff i forgot to bring Whoops)
Missed John Eyles crash as well. Shame it was a pretty trick bike. Real quick for a 130 cc 2 valve.

But it was more of a 50 track as i remember it far to tight for the big blocks LOL.

Thanks to whoever it was who loaned me an ignition (never got you name or have forgot), but he sent someone back home for it. So top bloke.i'm sure you were pited to the left on the track someone there had some nasty sounding main bearing promblems do you remember a guy having a engine change honda 125 that was me . l do remember speed pro's getting a nice wheel spin thingy at one point if he remembers . l'm sure ziffle got second and the guy we stayed with got 3th on a honda 125

[Yow Ling]

Its a bit off topic, but buckets cant exist without metal cutting, gives you a bit of an insight into what is happening at the end of the drill bit , lathe tool or milling cutter



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRuSYQ5Npek&hd=1

[crazy man]

it must of been the guy that got 4th l know it was no andy's place

[cotswold]

I hear a rumour that team ESE rider Avalon won the ladies race at the weekend?

[Buckets4Me]

264865 Av making us all proud



I was feeling strong for the women’s race but I knew it wasn’t going to be easy. The pole position time of 1.46.0 set by a local girl is really fast and left me nervous
I wouldn’t be able to stick with her. My Honda rocketed off the line and we made a gap right from the start, which stretched every lap until 2 laps from the end when
riding a full programme of two classes all weekend finally caught up with my struggling biceps and I rode conservatively to take the win. It was a ride I can be proud
of because I put down my fastest, most consistent laps of the weekend and recovered instantly from a from a front end slide which gave everyone watching a
heart attack as I had the fairing, footpeg and engine casing all skating across the track! Mamma Mia was all they could say about that moment afterwards.I was
so happy for my team and WIL Sport Management to give them something for the work they have put into the season so far. Also, to share the moment with my dad,
all the way from NZ for this weekend, my cousins and uncle was fantastic.

[richban]

264865 Av making us all proud

Very Cool. Well done Avalon.

[Gigglebutton]

264865 Av making us all proud

Fantastic news :-)

[F5 Dave]

golly, they make those Italian wimin tall:shifty:

[Brian d marge]

And you can watch it here .....


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/y2iBbwocYZw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Stephen

[F5 Dave]

Well I got bored & fast forwarded to the end, but Still didn't see any tall Italian wimin.:innocent:

[Brian d marge]

Well I got bored & fast forwarded to the end, but Still didn't see any tall Italian wimin.:innocent:


How about this one then

Babay goes BANG


Stephen

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/aUkXriHjQeI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[F5 Dave]

ok that was more humour,.

[jasonu]

[QUOTE=Brian d'marge;1130339424]How about this one then

Babay goes BANG


Stephen


My 50 did that at Ohakea. KERBLAMMO!!!!!

[F5 Dave]

and my 50 did that at Foodtown carpark in P.Nth (back in the days of no sunday trading). Leg out of bed & Gossimer cartwheeled over me & landed on top of my bike which was in turn on top of me. His bike made a break for it & continued on.

[Yow Ling]

Most FXR owners will at some stage of their bucket career will experience that

[husaberg]

MARVIC WHEELS


1989~2009 MARVIC PENTA 17" x 2.5" FRONT WHEEL £425.00 + VAT
Approx 2.5kg - including tyre valve & wheel spacer

1989~2009 MARVIC PENTA 17" x 3.5" REAR WHEEL £500.00 + VAT
Approx 3.0kg - including tyre valve & sprocket cush drive rubbers

1989~2009 MARVIC PENTA FRONT & REAR WHEEL SET £895.00 + VAT

http://www.dhz.com.au/images/ebayproducts/part/wheel/axle_slide_kit-1.jpghttp://www.dhz.com.au/images/ebayproducts/part/wheel/wh-51_2.jpg
NEW MOTARD WHEEL FRONT/REAR 15MM AXLE SLIDE KIT
it was on aust Ebay a while back DHZhttp://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-MOTARD-WHEEL-FRONT-REAR-AXLE-SLIDE-KIT-/250975427265?pt=AU_Motorcycle_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a6f4d1ac1

NEW DHZ FRONT & REAR BRAIDED BRAKE CABLE LINE KIT

http://www.dhz.com.au/images/ebayproducts/part/brake/brake-line-kit.jpg
Front & Rear Braided Brake Cable Line Kit
Rear Brake Cable: 60mm
Front Brake Cable: 95mm

[husaberg]

No bullshit - but no sigar either, Wob. It is simpler than that. The inhaled air enters the duct from all sides (hence the positive effect of a bellmouth),
but the blow-back shoots back out in a single column that hits the piece of paper in the video.
(Of course no running engine can blow back more air than it inhaled :p ).

Clever but wouldn't the air passing back through the carb venturi also have an effect when the air is blown back????

Plus wouldn't it be sucking over a longer period of time (A long deep breath)than it was blowing back (a fart):stupid:

[Frits Overmars]

Clever but wouldn't the air passing back through the carb venturi also have an effect when the air is blown back????Yes, but that's all in the game of finding a jetting that makes the engine happy.


Plus wouldn't it be sucking over a longer period of time (A long deep breath) than it was blowing back (a fart)Depends on the rpm; at low revs the crankcase is filled long before a piston-controled or disk-controled inlet port closes. The kinetic energy of the blow-back may even create an underpressure in the crankcase. And if the revs are really low, that underpressure can cause a restart of the induction process so that the engine inhales once, blows back once and inhales a second time, all within one inlet open period.

[ief]

In the light of this, does it make sense to think this could also happen with a membrane inlet?

This is the second go on a different RZ with a given carb and its again the same deal, have to use a realy lean pilot jet (because of double dipping ?) but then when opening the throttle the slide needs to be really rich (since no more double dipping, then the pilot shows it's true colours?)

And, if all that is true... what would one do about it or is it just a case of jet accordingly?

edit: seems the case only with this type of (modded) carb btw

[F5 Dave]

air leaking past those bored 26mm carb slides?

[ief]

No, vm28's with dave f mod. (basicly making them like yds7/ yr5) Thing is, I seem to be the only one encountering this as far as I can tell. Prolly something stupid on my side but can't figure out what :)

[F5 Dave]

I had some bored out 28s on my RZ (back in the day) & every time I put them on I developed an electrical fault. Ok it was only twice, but enough to make me lose interest in them again.

[TZ350]

Page 530 ....


interesting article:
http://motortecmagazine.net/article.asp?AID=1&AP=1
Far to many strokes for my liking; but horses for courses.

Poly Quad 4 Valve Head .....


Nice little riddle: this video was sent to me by a flabbergasted tuner who wonders how a running engine can blow back more air than it inhales...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aob8dgrnCjg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aob8dgrnCjg)


The inhaled air enters the duct from all sides (hence the positive effect of a bellmouth), but the blow-back shoots back out in a single column that hits the piece of paper in the video.

264972

(Of course no running engine can blow back more air than it inhaled :p ).


... at low revs the crankcase is filled long before a piston-controled or disk-controled inlet port closes. The kinetic energy of the blow-back may even create an underpressure in the crankcase. And if the revs are really low, that underpressure can cause a restart of the induction process so that the engine inhales once, blows back once and inhales a second time, all within one inlet open period.

Yes, but that's all in the game of finding a jetting that makes the engine happy.


You must take into consideration the fuel being used, and how the factory engineers approached the problem.
Unleaded ( FIM that needs gloves and a respirator ) will go to 15:1 but must be run VERY rich to achieve best power with that level of com.
Leaded was run up at 19:1 in GP engines and at the end of the day the result was that the advance curves changed very little.
The big advance was in using the powerjet solenoids.
The unleaded scenario uses BIG powerjets ( 60 + ) to turn off the rich mixture past peak power.
The leaded setup was very lean at peak power, so only needed small ( 35 ) powerjets to keep the pipe temp up, over the top of the pipe.
Later of course that bastard Thiel came along and did the clever thing of PWM controlling the powerjet, thus even closer continuously matching the A/F ratio to the pipe
temp needed for max power.


Yep, easy to construct a 3D map with tps in the Ignitech by doing runs at 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 throttle.
Or use the technology properly and use the deto sensor output as well to tell the ecu to retard at any time/rpm when the deto is happening , on the fly.


Using the det sensor with lights makes it dead easy to shape the curve to suit the engine, you dont need a brake at all.
You can dyno load cycle the engine as fast as you like, and for the short period it may deto, in a small band of rpm - the lights go off like a Xmas tree.
Takes a bit of fiddling with sensitivity to get in the ballpark and read actual deto - not normal noise, as the det frequency is
determined by the bore diameter.
Just make sure the M8 bolt thru the Bosch sensor is tightly fixed to the head or case, with no washers to crush etc.
Data logging the sensor output against rpm is the trick way to go, but simply watching the revcounter and the lights to see where deto is happening during a pull, is easy.
Works just like the deto warning when running EngMod - see the warning and fix the excess advance before a rod comes thru your screen, your choice.

In this case we are dealing with an aircooled scenario - remember two things here, Avgas loves com to make power, and the pipe loves retard to get heat for revon power.
Whenever you have high com or lots of advance a larger % of the heat of combustion is directed out from the chamber into the finning, via mainly the ring contact with
the bore, reduce either or both and more heat ends up in the pipe, making it appear shorter due to the increased wave speed..
Thus when you are thermally limited by the finnings capability to reject heat, you must reduce the heat input by limiting the com.
This then means more heat is available in the pipe, so more power can then be made by upping the advance - just another balancing act.
Its a Catch 22 when there is high dynamic com - ie, when the engine is on the pipe,there is danger lurking, but below that point - the cylinder filling is so piss poor the only way to get good
throttle response off slow corners is to pile in plenty of advance - its safe as houses as there is very little effective com.
This engine has no powervalve so the cylinder filling efficiency comes on slowly, so you roll of the advance slowly, then pull it out quicker as the system starts to work well.
With a powervalve its the opposite - as soon as the valve starts to lift the efficiency increases dramatically, so the advance needs to be pulled out much quicker and sooner.
Any well set up race engine will love 28* below the pipe when running Avgas.

In one of the World Champ skis I did we had 35* of mid advance, as the only time it was in that band was at full throttle from a standing start.
It would jump real hard using that advance to generate cylinder pressure - but troll around on part throttle at that rpm and it would kill the engine by loosening the barrel nuts with rampant deto.


Andrew down here has some head phones that run through a little amp. You just attach a little alligator lip to the head and listen at different rpm under load. You can hear it det loud and clear. You can run A wide band lambda with 2 stroke's on Ave gas apparently. The main thing is to let it heat up to operating temp before starting the bike. Also if the bike is silly rich it will kill it fast.


I've got a link somewhere (I'll dig it out) that shows one being built from Jaycar bits; but yes its a mic attached to the Alligator clip (on the ones I seen; not Andrew's one).

Here's a good link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L57fnOlWdaI


I can't see how you will be able to set up a safe ignition with no brake on the dyno and not listening for knock. Or as mentioned a wide band lambda.

Could be reving over a potential engine killer. Could be wrong but seams thats what has killed a few engines lately.

I will be there myself soon my ignition arrived yesterday.


The combination of port and pipe is firmly set at 12,000 so this is what I would use as a baseline.
Its initial drop off is to get it to idle well from the big static, plenty of mid advance for throttle response and then enough for a good peak ( assuming correct com cc ) but falling further to help revon.


As we are talking about Small Hondas, heres how to get rid of the total loss battery ignition and have a push and go.

264470

This is the typical Total Loss Battery Ignition System and is very similar to an Energy Transfer or Magneto Ignition Sytem and could be converted fairly easily.

264416

Here are details on how to convert the Hondas alternator to a Energy Transfer Magneto system.

And how Gordon Jennings converted a CB450 to Energy Transfer Magneto.
http://www.race-uscra.com/linksfiles/engineeringanddesignfiles/HondaIgnition/Jennings (http://www.race-uscra.com/linksfiles/engineeringanddesignfiles/HondaIgnition/Jennings) Honda Magneto Cycle 1969.pdf

264418

Hondas version of a Low Tension Magneto System.

264419

And Energy Transfer Mag.


Aladdins Cave

In reality the Store is the local Hose & Hydraulic Centre. Phone Fax (03) 768 9068 specializing in Hydraulink fluid connectors, Robin Engines and everything to do with hydraulic hose and coupling service.

264350

The shop has plenty of Hydraulic Stock, everything you could need, but even at the counter there is other interesting things to see.

264353

Like the Willys jeep

264354

and Bradford van

264351

and old radios

264355

stationary engine and something else buried under there

There used to be lots of interesting places around the country like this, and this has to be the best of them that's left.

Made all the more interesting because its not just some sort of musem but a real working enviroment with the biggest range of hydraulic hose and fittings you could imagine.

264352

I am very grateful to Robin Gray for taking the time to show me around. It was a great morning looking at some very interesting stuff and talking about motorcycles and racing.


At 01.30 AM it took me some thinking to kick out the inches and the thou's. But I finally worked it out.
That rule of thumb says: ring gap = 0,4% of bore. Jan Thiel found this to be critical; we use 0,5% of bore as a minimum.
Using too wide a gap may loose you some power. Using too tight a gap may turn the ring into a very effective oil scraper which can lead to a giant seizure.


Very old rule of thumb was 4 thou per inch of bore, so at 72 its near as damn it 3"= 12 thou = 0.3mm = perfect ring gap.


Hey here's an odd one. I pulled out the piston from a mates GG dirty bike with 72mm bore. He bought it low hours & has ridden it quite a bit. Piston shows some wear but pretty good.

But checked the ring end gap: 0.3mm! Hells teeth. That's tight for a 300. It didn't look like anyone had been in there before so we have a bike with decent hours on it & rings are super tight close. std spec is 0.5 with 0.8 limit. Wonder how close they were from new?

I would have thought this close on a big bore would have closed the tips up & bulged them. Above ports are perfect with no scoring & cylinder in general looks sweet.

Putting a Wossner in this weekend. Did one in mine a few months back & I went to the bother of filing the end gap to 0.5. Wonder if I should bother?

Are these clearances over protective?


The wings also lessen another problem with bent manifolds. Without the wing the flow will centrifuge to the outside which will overload the outside reeds so they need to be thicker than the inside reeds that seem to have eternal life. These hard outside reeds create a lot of flow resistance. The soft inside reeds would offer less resistance to the flow, if only there was any flow to speak of on the inside of the bend...
Adding the wing (preferably curved) allows the use of softer outside reeds and makes better use of the inside reeds' flow area.
But nothing beats a dead straight inlet tract without a wing.


I have done plenty of reed blocks fitted with alloy wing shaped splitters and then filled the cavity with Devcon.
The Devcon also can be shaped with a wet finger, so it doesnt stick.
I make the wing from 5mm plate with a full front radius tapering to a point that sits under the petal tips.
The real trick with the wings is to position the foil offset vertically a few mm, this forces the flow in a bent manifold to equalise the lift on all the reed petals instead of pushing most to the top.
In a back to back on a flow bench test this gained around 12% of flow at the same pressure drop, and was worth around 2 Hp in a 44 Hp old KX125 - this is why dead straight intakes/downdraft work so well.


Try to keep the length down, Dave. That is especially important if you are using a small-diameter carb.Good approach.I used to use the rubbery stuff that is used to fit car windows. You can model it with a wet finger and it stays somewhat elastic.


Just been thinking about trying to make a new manifold for a reedblock, so that's simple enough, a mikuni type spigot bolted to a block of ally that bolts to the reedblock.

But I'm trying to think of a clever way to make a few different stuffers to try out. I'm using a TZR250 1KT 6 petal block & trying to get a block of acetal to fit tight in there & then bore & port it sounds like a wind up. . .

Any other ideas for fabrication?


The following could be an option (about the same $$ as a FCR carb and spares; Damm the exchange rate) and offers a programmable ignition as well:
http://www.mbe-motorsports.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/22/products_id/190?osCsid=nk8a9i6qgeaah1kh1lp0dlbdl3

In the MBE forum they talk about a two stroke kit (but it has gone from the website) using two injectors (theory was: one very small-bottom end, normal size-rest of the range, both together at the topend). largest throttle body looks to be 28mm.
and if you look hard enough there is a turbo kit as well...

But it would still take some work to get it functioning with a two stroke.
I'm guessing the best starting point would be to log a map sensor on a standard carb to get an idea of air flow rates vs. RPM.
then start building a fuel map around the ideal A/F ratios.

[Grumph]

In the light of this, does it make sense to think this could also happen with a membrane inlet?

This is the second go on a different RZ with a given carb and its again the same deal, have to use a realy lean pilot jet (because of double dipping ?) but then when opening the throttle the slide needs to be really rich (since no more double dipping, then the pilot shows it's true colours?)

And, if all that is true... what would one do about it or is it just a case of jet accordingly?

edit: seems the case only with this type of (modded) carb btw

Are you running the carbs on a downdraft angle ? VM's don't like anything above about a 15 degree downdraft as they will weep fuel through the pilot circuits...

[F5 Dave]

Back to det sensors


. . . The 3 pole ones have 3 wires so dont know how these would be connected.
Most are 2 wire and are common to most late model cars, Audi, VW ,BMW, Subi etc, the plug is standard injector type.
Easiest is the one with 8mm hole thru the middle, they are rugged as hell, so rarely bust, whip down to wrecker and get one for jack shit with the plug connected.


Well I got a Subi one. But now I pull the munted plug off it only seems to have one wire, so I'm assuming that it just grounds on the base & the piezo generates a voltage & the ignitech senses that.

Hmm, throw it on the scope & give it some quick taps & it can produce ~ 7V p-p.

[kel]

Back to det sensors



Well I got a Subi one. But now I pull the munted plug off it only seems to have one wire.

I made the same mistake :facepalm:
Let us know how you get on interfacing to the Igni.

[F5 Dave]

So there is a 2 wire one? how could it be different? Presumably when you configure the igni input to retard it configures that port to an A-D, so senses the voltage spikes and interprets that as detonation. I guess there is some algorithm to ignore engine vibration. it would have been nice if one could have an output from this to drive a LED indicator so when it is retarding you know about it.

I suspect if you connected a LED to the det sensor there would be enough noise you wouldn't believe (ie no algorithm) it & there may not be enough omph to drive it without extra cctry, though it did sink into a 1k resistor & still produce voltage. However I have no idea how much it will produce under real running detonation conditions rather than me hitting it with a small screwdriver blade.

Can you see on the PC when it is retarding?

[TZ350]

Hi Dave, I think it all works on the frequency of the vibration, an engine at 12,000rpm is 200 hz and detonation rings at a much higher frequency, like 1-10kHz. The detector attached to the knock sensor must be responding to the frequency of the vibration, and not the p-p amplitude.

http://www.bosch.com.au/content/language1/html/4563.htm

264977

[F5 Dave]

12k/60, yeah, so just passes out low freq stuff

My subi peizo is a Unisia Jecs, not a Bosch after all, can't find any info, but surely a simple device.

I bought a Subi TPS at the same time for giggles as there is no room for like an RGV splitter box in the RS. I'll have to pull it with a cable, so just have to screw it to a plate & make a pivot arm. Possibly not as simple as I hoped now I have it in my hand, but possible & can hid it under the seat out of the way.

[wobbly]

Seems to be some confusion here.
The det sensor has to be connected to the knock gauge I posted the link to on here a while ago.
This has the filter on board as well as led indication.
And if you buy the option of a current sink to ground wire it will drive the retard input on an Ignitech, when deto is seen within the sensitivity range..
Yes any Ignitech input config is shown on the PC screen when it is grounded.

[kel]

Knock sensor needs to pass through a tuneable band pass filter, seem to remember Jaycar sell a tuneable unit. Will see what I can find.

[dinamik2t]

Yeah, I 'm with Kel; it's about frequency, not voltage amplitude. So, logically, there should be a Fourier transf circuitry and the band-pass filter - all either in physical or pc program form.
I believe it can be done if you know some electronics -and internet browsing-, but the result might not be worthy of the time spent.
The one Wob informed us about has a reasonable price, so why not?


edit :
I don't quite remember at the moment, but there must be some knock signal examples at the Labview website at NI. And some (a little more sophisticated) knock program examples in their forums.

I had the Jaycar page saved in my bookmarks, but it's seems to be no more: www.jaycar.co.nz/productView.asp?ID=KC5444&keywords=knock&form=KEYWORD
It must have been this one : http://www.rhinopower.org/knock/knock.html

[F5 Dave]

ahh, I see, the inputs aren't as smart as I thought. I have a plan B, but we'll see where that goes.

Heck I should really be in the garage sorting out plates for the engine mounts or I won't even be able to start it once the engine is done. Pretty cold though.

[diesel pig]

Seems to be some confusion here.
The det sensor has to be connected to the knock gauge I posted the link to on here a while ago.
This has the filter on board as well as led indication.
And if you buy the option of a current sink to ground wire it will drive the retard input on an Ignitech, when deto is seen within the sensitivity range..
Yes any Ignitech input config is shown on the PC screen when it is grounded.

On the subject of Ignitechs, I wonder if I am missing a trick with the coil. I am using a old VT250 coil with my DC-CDI-P2 but is there a better coil to use?

[dinamik2t]

Just an addition here:
There this "inexpensive" Selettra ignition coil from the IAME X30 karts, here: http://www.ebay.de/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649&item=180598799201&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMESINDXX%3AIT#ht_3433wt_1139
You can ask the seller to send around (he sent mine in Greece at least).

I don't know whether it's a top choice coil, but based on the fact that it comes from a high revving competition engine and that Selettra is a known company, it could be. Perhaps the elders can confirm -or not!

[koba]

On the subject of Ignitechs, I wonder if I am missing a trick with the coil. I am using a old VT250 coil with my DC-CDI-P2 but is there a better coil to use?

Funny, I've got a few of those too, I guess they are pretty common considering the engine is likely to die well before anything else.


EDIT: I once bought a complete "running with a knock" VT250 for a packet of biscuits. I got it, took of the mirrors and a few other bit I wanted off it then contacted the local wrecker.
I said: come and get it for free.
The reply was: "shoulda kept the bikkies".

[husaberg]

Funny, I've got a few of those too, I guess they are pretty common considering the engine is likely to die well before anything else.


EDIT: I once bought a complete "running with a knock" VT250 for a packet of biscuits. I got it, took of the mirrors and a few other bit I wanted off it then contacted the local wrecker.
I said: come and get it for free.
The reply was: "shoulda kept the bikkies".


Yes i love Hondas but it is hard to love the early Vt250 from memory most of the problems revolved around the oiling.
i think there were issues with the oil pressure and Bypass not actually bypassing when the idiots that was invariably a teenager never changed the oil or filter the pickup blocked.
This lead to many of the problems that plagued what was a clever litlte bike. they are now quite reliable but a real bitch to work on ESP the early ones.IE take off the rad to do the tappets real clever.

[koba]

How about this one then

Babay goes BANG


Stephen


Looks like about 7 seconds to shut it down before the real big bang...


Yes, but that's all in the game of finding a jetting that makes the engine happy.

Depends on the rpm; at low revs the crankcase is filled long before a piston-controled or disk-controled inlet port closes. The kinetic energy of the blow-back may even create an underpressure in the crankcase. And if the revs are really low, that underpressure can cause a restart of the induction process so that the engine inhales once, blows back once and inhales a second time, all within one inlet open period.

I'm sorry but I can't resist being shit-stirrer here: Are you talking about 3 times past the mainjet?

[koba]

Yes i love Hondas but it is hard to love the early Vt250 from memory most of the problems revolved around the oiling.
i think there were issues with the oil pressure and Bypass not actually bypassing when the idiots that was invariably a teenager never changed the oil or filter the pickup blocked.
This lead to many of the problems that plagued what was a clever litlte bike. they are now quite reliable but a real bitch to work on ESP the early ones.IE take off the rad to do the tappets real clever.

This was an early one. I've since turned down 3 free ones.
From what I hear the Honda service bulletins are real funny/scary.

[husaberg]

This was an early one. I've since turned down 3 free ones.
From what I hear the Honda service bulletins are real funny/scary.

I guess they cost them a bit of Dough all right. Honda service bulletins are funny esp all the tools that you must have.
Tools to do stuff you have done for years without them. Like engine specific case splitting tools etc.(rather than a mallet)
I used to love the list of things that you have to check cause the guys in the factory were having a bad day or someone was away that day and one remember to do (Insert long list of stuff here) The atvs were cool because the crate were wooden so lots of timber (Oregeon)
they still had no grease but took bugger all to put together.

[bucketracer]

... the engine inhales once, blows back once and inhales a second time, all within one inlet open period.

I'm sorry but I can't resist being shit-stirrer here: Are you talking about 3 times past the main jet?

Now who was that odd bod who tried to mock TeeZee for talking about 3 times past the main jet, he seems to have gone quiet. http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Frits Overmars]

at low revs the crankcase is filled long before a piston-controled or disk-controled inlet port closes. The kinetic energy of the blow-back may even create an underpressure in the crankcase. And if the revs are really low, that underpressure can cause a restart of the induction process so that the engine inhales once, blows back once and inhales a second time, all within one inlet open period.
I'm sorry but I can't resist being shit-stirrer here: Are you talking about 3 times past the mainjet?Nope. 3 times past the needle jet (I can stir as well as you can :devil2:).

[husaberg]

Nope. 3 times past the needle jet (I can stir as well as you can :devil2:).


Three times past the mainjet is that exclusively a scooter thing?:innocent:

There must be some dastardly skulduggery.... but it seems a bit rich to suggest there may be something afloat in the carb. Blah blah..I scoff at the moor suggestion....I am awash in a sea of fog

[TZ350]

Nope. 3 times past the needle jet (I can stir as well as you can :devil2:).

yes that's right, strictly speaking. It is 3 times past the needle jet.

And like Husa hints at, 3 times past the main jet, is something floating in the fuel bowl. http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/smilies/lol.gif

[wobbly]

The knock box has ended on ebay, but you can still go to the website.
Can see no reason for anyone to shag about with homemade shit from Jaycar or whatever - this thing costs nothing and works perfectly.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Knock-gauge-for-detonation-sensor-klopfsensor-NEW-/110818862446?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item19cd51a56e&vxp=mtr#ht_1582wt_1297

Re coils for Ignitech.
All DC - CDI systems work the best with coils that have very low primary resistance.
I discovered that Suzuki had figured this out a long time ago with the RGV and later the Aprilia, so those coils work really well.
But the same coil is available on TradeMe for around $40, it has less than 0.2 ohms primary.
The other way to get max power into the gap is run both cdi in a P2 into the same coil.
This doubles the power available and increases the spark burn duration considerably.
Needs correct programming though - works a treat on RS125.

[F5 Dave]

That looks easy, must read a bit when I have some time. This work thing gets in the way, but more time on my hands would mean no money to spend.
Thanks for the link.

[dinamik2t]

The other way to get max power into the gap is run both cdi in a P2 into the same coil.
This doubles the power available and increases the spark burn duration considerably.
Needs correct programming though - works a treat on RS125.

I think it's still there Wob, just not ready-to-deliver, until 19/6 as the mister says.
Very clever idea that of using both signals in one coil! You would need to connect the in line though - and it would generate a huge voltage :wacko:
Then it's all up to lobe triggering synchronisation :)

By the way, I checked the Selettra coil's primary/secondary R (http://www.aa1car.com/library/ignition_coils.htm).
I got 0.6~0.7Ω for the primary and about 5kΩ for the secondary. Far from <0.2Ω :(

[wobbly]

The two cdi outputs are simply paired together.
Doubles the energy, the voltage stays the same as one channel.
And both inputs run off the same lobe, programmed in software as two coils using the same trigger.

[teriks]

Clever head design, Wob, you have some catching up to do ;)

265007

EDIT: Pic taken from another forum, someone bought a used KX 125, found this and asked about the "neat" design..

[F5 Dave]

Sweet, maybe next try one of those swirly rifled designs.

I guess they were thinking it would lower the MSV but keep the charge in a smaller area. but why on earth would the charge just not slip over the edge, you'd have more lost in those holes & those edges could get mighty hot. Nice consistent job he's done:rolleyes:

[wobbly]

The drillings would possibly create alot more turbulence in the advancing flame front, thus improving combustion speed.
But I believe that a sharp corner at the squish edge does the same thing, and the toroid/bathtub shape pulls the plug down
into the area that has the greatest turbulence - I will stick with that approach.

[TZ350]

Now for something we have done before, weighing wheels.

As reality is impossible for anyone one to measure, we can only hope to make better measurements that give a clearer picture of what we are looking at.

So in the interests of improved accuracy we thought of calibrating the scales first and then working at or near the calibrated value.

Given that 1L of water weighs 1kg. then 4 x 2 L milk bottles filled with water will be 8kg and 5 will be 10kg.

So we adjusted the scales to read 8kg with 4 milk bottles and 10kg with 5. Then weighed the wheels and tyres with added milk bottles so the scales were working in the calibrated region.

The results after deducting the known weight of the milk bottles were :-

Suzuki (GSXR front wheel) 3.5x17 rear with tyre 8kg
Rear rim only 4.2kg and tyre only 3.8kg

Honda NSR MC16 2.5x17 front with tyre 5.5kg
Front rim only 3.25 and tyre only 2.25kg

Maybe not exactly accurate but probably a better result than last time.

[Farmaken]

Had a bit of a play with a SV front rim to make up a lighter rear for my bucket.
Ended up at 9.6 kg versus 11.2 for the gs rim.

Not a total solution but a cheap step in the right direction

[Bert]

Had a bit of a play with a SV front rim to make up a lighter rear for my bucket.
Ended up at 9.6 kg versus 11.2 for the gs rim.

Not a total solution but a cheap step in the right direction

nice work Farmaken.. :not::niceone:
I suspect this might become quite common.

you might find that you need some internal meat/support on the mounting plates for the sprocket and disk to transfer load too (off the bolts); I ran into bolts snapping.
But you may have already done this (not clear in the photos).

[bucketracer]

Not a total solution but a cheap step in the right direction

That looks like the rims that TeeZee has, Suzuki must use the same rim on several different bikes.

Cheap practical solution in the right direction, that appeals to TeeZee.

Good work Ken. That looks like a pit bike disk, did you have to space it out? What is the sprocket carrier off?

[bucketracer]

RS complete Front wheel 8.0kg complete Rear wheel 9.5kg

compaired to:-

Wire complete Front wheel 9.0kg complete Rear wheel 9.5kg
FZR complete Front wheel 9.0kg complete Rear wheel 12.0kg



The results after deducting the known weight of the milk bottles were :-

Suzuki (GSXR front wheel) 3.5x17 rear with tyre 8kg
Rear rim only 4.2kg and tyre only 3.8kg

Honda NSR MC16 2.5x17 front with tyre 5.5kg
Front rim only 3.25 and tyre only 2.25kg

Maybe not exactly accurate but probably a better result than last time.


Had a bit of a play with a SV front rim to make up a lighter rear for my bucket.
Ended up at 9.6 kg versus 11.2 for the gs rim.

Looks like Farmakens Suzuki rear is much the same weight as a std RS rear.

[Farmaken]

Cheers Bert & bucketracer


It is a pit bike disc ( $15 on TM ) on home made carrier to adapt bolt patterns

Sprocket also on kenbuilt carrier

Disc and sprocket located on spigots with spiggoting bolts to take load -- time will tell if they are strong enough

[husaberg]

Cheers Bert & bucketracer


It is a pit bike disc ( $15 on TM ) on home made carrier to adapt bolt patterns

Sprocket carrier also on kenbuilt carrier

Disc and sprocket located on spigots with spiggoting bolts to take load -- time will tell if they are strong enough

Dowels...?

[2T Institute]

Now for something we have done before, weighing wheels.

As reality is impossible for anyone one to measure, we can only hope to make better measurements that give a clearer picture of what we are looking at.

So in the interests of improved accuracy we thought of calibrating the scales first and then working at or near the calibrated value.

Given that 1L of water weighs 1kg. then 4 x 2 L milk bottles filled with water will be 8kg and 5 will be 10kg.

So we adjusted the scales to read 8kg with 4 milk bottles and 10kg with 5. Then weighed the wheels and tyres with added milk bottles so the scales were working in the calibrated region.

The results after deducting the known weight of the milk bottles were :-

Suzuki (GSXR front wheel) 3.5x17 rear with tyre 8kg
Rear rim only 4.2kg and tyre only 3.8kg

Honda NSR MC16 2.5x17 front with tyre 5.5kg
Front rim only 3.25 and tyre only 2.25kg

Maybe not exactly accurate but probably a better result than last time.

Examined te benefits of using Helium gas instead of air, it's lighter ;)

[Yow Ling]

a worn out tyre would be a weight saving as well, I have some in stock

[speedpro]

The bolts to use are called shoulder bolts.

[teriks]

The drillings would possibly create alot more turbulence in the advancing flame front, thus improving combustion speed.
But I believe that a sharp corner at the squish edge does the same thing, and the toroid/bathtub shape pulls the plug down
into the area that has the greatest turbulence - I will stick with that approach.
Very good idea methink.

[TZ350]

Disc and sprocket located on spigots with spiggoting bolts to take load -- time will tell if they are strong enough


The bolts to use are called shoulder bolts.

265069

Early 70's TZ250/350's used shoulder bolts on the rear sprocket and no cush drive.

265070

The TZ shoulder bolts shoulder went right through the sprocket and the shoulder located like a dowel into the hub, the thread was only for holding it in place.

[husaberg]

265069

Early 70's TZ250/350's used shoulder bolts on the rear sprocket and no cush drive.

265070

The TZ shoulder bolts shoulder went right through the sprocket and the shoulder located like a dowel into the hub, the thread was only for holding it in place.

Ok but i could be wrong here but the TZ at least the later ones from memory have a cush drive in the Hub don't they?
also remember the shock absorbing qualities of traditional spoked wheels

Nah don't worry i am being overely pedantic.it most likely will be sweet.
I still do, think dowels are a more acceptable solution for resisting the shear forces that will be acting on the sprocket.
Bolts are primary for clamping.That's not to say that if HT bolts and if the correct area of shank and at the correct torque won't work(cause it will) as they will also provide lots of friction assuming the areas make good contact and are tight fitting. Or that spigot or shoulder bolts are bad.

My problem is on the NC23 front wheel i am using on the rear is Honda used tiny bolts compared to the MC19.

[Yow Ling]

My problem is on the NC23 front wheel i am using on the rear is Honda used tiny bolts compared to the MC19.

Cant you just drill and retap it ?

[wobbly]

And I know from experience that TZ sprockets must use lockwire or the old bent tab retainers, as with no cush in the clutch - or the rear hub ( unlike all the road bikes)
these bolts loosen monotonously.

[Farmaken]

And I know from experience that TZ sprockets must use lockwire or the old bent tab retainers, as with no cush in the clutch - or the rear hub ( unlike all the road bikes)
these bolts loosen monotonously.

Good to know, cheers wobbly
TF has cush rubbers in the clutch so hopefully will help a little

[speedpro]

Shoulder bolts/screws are designed specifically for what you need them for. They resist shear with a portion of plain shank. We snapped an EN39 axle in the sidecar and the bolts were still good. Normal HT bolts started to shear after one meeting but proper shoulder bolts never even looked like they had been used, nearly.

The important thing is to accurately machine everything so the load is evenly distributed.

Check this site http://www.industrialtooling.co.nz/pages/itemdetails/?item=MIL0610

[husaberg]

Cant you just drill and retap it ?

Yeah i can, (but not as well as Honda did) plus there is not an awful of of material to work with.
From memory it is 6 vs 8mm.
Hopefully some engineer type will give some simple easy to follow advice to design parameters.
Around a design able to contain say 40hp:innocent: with a reliability factor of say 200%

[Farmaken]

Cows are dry, that means more time in the shed

Here is the latest version ; using a jaycar frequency counter/switch to drive a R1 servo motor to operate the spool valve on the header pipe

Using a DPDT switch mounted on the servo to reverse the motor - unless someone can point me at an electronic limit/polarity switch to make use of the servo`s in built potentiometer ??

[husaberg]

And I know from experience that TZ sprockets must use lockwire or the old bent tab retainers, as with no cush in the clutch - or the rear hub ( unlike all the road bikes)
these bolts loosen monotonously.


I have seen i am sure TZ's with a cush drive in the clutch I have not seen early ones but i'm sure the late ones had oval rubbers?
like these
http://www.raveengineering.com/images/auto/350-250-tzclutchrubbers.jpg
http://www.raveengineering.com/shop/item.php?id=171

weird they don't look like they are on the parts fiche and are not listed as a seperate part?

OH yeah i just read a article that says at least one model of the 360 KTM's that King used to keep finishing second on. had a Atac style valve in the exhaust header so add them to the list.

[Gigglebutton]

Thanks boys for the help with my FXR. I made and fitted the the longer intake as you suggested Rob. Way better down low and smoother to.
Cant wait to try it tomorrow. :D

[bucketracer]

Here is the latest version ; using a jaycar frequency counter/switch to drive a R1 servo motor to operate the spool valve on the header pipe

Using a DPDT switch mounted on the servo to reverse the motor - unless someone can point me at an electronic limit/polarity switch to make use of the servo`s in built potentiometer ??

http://www.ignitech.cz/english/aindex.htm servo controller by IgnTech.


I have seen i am sure TZ's with a cush drive in the clutch I have not seen early ones but i'm sure the late ones had oval rubbers?
like these
http://www.raveengineering.com/images/auto/350-250-tzclutchrubbers.jpg
http://www.raveengineering.com/shop/item.php?id=171

weird they don't look like they are on the parts fiche and are not listed as a seperate part?

OH yeah i just read a article that says at least one model of the 360 KTM's that King used to keep finishing second on. had a Atac style valve in the exhaust header so add them to the list.

70's TZ's had rubbers like those in the clutch, I think the hub rivet that holds the clutch outer hub together went through the hole.

[Bert]

Cows are dry, that means more time in the shed

Here is the latest version ; using a jaycar frequency counter/switch to drive a R1 servo motor to operate the spool valve on the header pipe

Using a DPDT switch mounted on the servo to reverse the motor - unless someone can point me at an electronic limit/polarity switch to make use of the servo`s in built potentiometer ??


Nice work Farmaken (twice in a week:niceone:).

you could look at a small PLC (12v version) and programme it to do what you need.
I'll have a talk to my electronics engineer next week, I'm sure he can suggest something cheap and cheerful.

[wobbly]

The ATAC valve needs to be opened and closed at a set rpm, there is NO advantage to ramping it over an rpm span.
Thus the best, cheapest, quickest solution is a small push or pull, spring return solenoid, operated by an rpm switch.
The servo motor solution is overkill and unnecessarily complex.

[dinamik2t]

The two cdi outputs are simply paired together.
Doubles the energy, the voltage stays the same as one channel.
And both inputs run off the same lobe, programmed in software as two coils using the same trigger.

I misunderstood Wob. But I don't get how the spark energy will be doubled. I have to search it on my own to understand it my way, but thanks! :) After all it's just physics.

Did you guys knew of this page? http://www.ntproject.com/software_cbs.htm
They have some two stroke software and some chassis spec software.

[bucketracer]

The two cdi outputs are simply paired together.
Doubles the energy, the voltage stays the same as one channel.
I don't get how the spark energy will be doubled.

Electrical energy is Voltage and Current.

There is twice the amount of current released from two capacitors at the same voltage (2 channels) for potentially twice the energy being released into the ignition coil as there is from one capacitor (channel) by itself.

With the two channels working, the current drawn from the battery or charging circuit by the IgniTech DC-CDI-2 will be twice as high as running only one channel as the IgniTech has got to get the extra energy to punch a fatter spark from somewhere.

For the Odd Bod who is pedantic about accuracy, the words "twice as much" paint the picture but are being used a bit loosely because inductance, resistance and increased back EMF reduce the result, so in reality its potentially much more than one but something less than twice.


Did you guys knew of this page? http://www.ntproject.com/software_cbs.htm
They have some two stroke software and some chassis spec software.

Only for the VHSH30 Dellorto but interesting carb setup software all the same.

""Currently the software SET-UP Carburetor Experience is available for Dellorto carburetor VHSH30 and was developed in four configurations dedicated to engines used in 125 KZ1-KZ2 Championships, Junior Rok Vortex, Rok Vortex and Super Rok Vortex""

The VHSH30 Dellorto carburetor, it looks like a round slide but is in fact a flat slide carb and about $350 Euro.

[wobbly]

Think of the two cdi units as battery's that supply "power" to the ignition coil.
Run two batteries in parrallel and the voltage stays the same - but potentially twice the current is available.
As the coil resistance ( plus inductive reactance) stays the same, this doubled current creates potentially more than twice the power in the coil.
as power = Watts = Current squared * R, the watts are more than doubled.
This translates differently in practice.
On a scope the initiall arc -over voltage and time is the same, but the actual burn time ( or the period where the stored energy in the capacitors bleeds down ) by the spark
ionising the molecules in the gap,increases around 3 fold.
The other method of increasing the spark energy is to increase the inductive reactance of the coil, this is why the RGV/Aprilia low primary resistance coils work well with a DC - CDI.
Even better is a huge Crane coil that is used in Nascar CDI systems.
A twin Ignitech driving one of these pulls 6A continuous and will destroy the ground electrode of a "normal" plug.

[TZ350]

Even better is a huge Crane coil that is used in Nascar CDI systems.
A twin Ignitech driving one of these pulls 6A continuous and will destroy the ground electrode of a "normal" plug.

With one of those we may be able to get 30+ hp at the back wheel without even turning the petrol on ... :laugh:

Hi Wob, at 12,000 rpm how many degrees is the single channels spark duration.

Would it be possible to delay the second channel a few degrees for an even longer or possibly second spark?

[Ocean1]

Would it be possible to delay the second channel a few degrees for an even longer or possibly second spark?

Not the right one, but you get the idea...

http://www.msdignition.com/instructions/Products/4223.pdf?terms=mc3

[bucketracer]

An excerpt from:-

Testing Spark Plug Wires

Copyright (C) 1997, All Rights Reserved.
David Kucharczyk &ltssr@netcom.com

http://www.mr2.com/TEXT/DavidKucharczyk/ignition.html

Anatomy Of A Spark

To understand spark plug wires, it helps to understand some of the physics behind a spark. You get a spark when an insulator breaks down and allows a rapid discharge of electrons across it. A spark consists of four distinct phases. The first phase is a sudden decrease in resistance, which leads to the second phase, which is marked by current runaway (a feedback condition where more current flow causes lower resistance and thus even more current flow). The third phase is indicated by a voltage collapse as the low resistance path discharges the built up energy and finally the fourth phase which is indicated by a low voltage with high current flow through the insulating material.

Here is a voltage vs. time plot of a typical spark from an automotive ignition coil. The voltage rises rapidly until breakdown of the the mixture occurs (1), which is followed by voltage collapse and stabilization at a high current and constant voltage (2). Spark duration (t) runs about 1.5 mS.

The initial breakdown is caused a high electric field density. An electric field has a direct relationship to voltage. The higher the voltage, the stronger the electric field. Electric fields have a tendency to accelerate any charged particles within them such as free electrons or ions. As the particles are accelerated, they hit nearby atoms and knock electrons from them, which then are in turn accelerated by the field. If the field is strong enough, the reaction cascades until a large enough number of the atoms in the insulator are ionized to cause breakdown and conduction.

For a given voltage, field density is inversely proportional to the radius of the surface. Therefore, arcs are most likely to start at any corners or sharp points as these areas will have their greatest field density.

In a spark plug, gas (air and vaporized gasoline) provides the insulator which is broken down. Generally, the initial breakdown voltage is higher in gases with higher molecular weights, so adding gasoline to the mixture increases the breakdown voltage. Increased pressure also increases the breakdown voltage. The relationship of pressure vs. breakdown voltage is also affected by the distance between the two electrodes and a combined pressure X spacing number is used. At pressure X spacing values over 1 (N/m^2)m the relationship is nearly linear, ie a 10 X increase in pressure will yield almost a 10 X increase in breakdown voltage. Air has a breakdown voltage of 1000 volts at a pressure spacing value of 10.

What all the above means with regard to igniting the mixture in a motor is; The higher the cylinder pressure and the more fuel there is, the higher the voltage needs to be to start a spark.

Once the arc is started, any airflow over the electrodes has a tendency to carry the ionized (conducting) gas away and blow the arc out. As soon as the arc breaks apart, the voltage rises gain and the arc may re-form. If the airflow is high enough to carry the partially ionized gas away faster than it can re-form, the spark will blow out.
Spark Plug Wires

[bucketracer]

Trawling the net for opinions on spark duration.


http://spdispark.com/pages/spdi (http://spdispark.com/pages/spdi)

Spark Duration

An inductive ignition system has a spark duration of appoximately 1 milisecond. A CDI system has a very short duration of around 50 micro seconds. In comparision, SPDi produces a spark that can be as long as you want. In theory the SPDi Spark could be continuous, but that probably wouldn't be a good idea. Generally our spark profiles produce a spark that is 1.5 to 2 ms in duration. Our testing has shown that the best results are achieved when the spark ends between 10 to 15 degrees past TDC.

[bucketracer]

http://plasmatronicsllc.com/spark.pdf

265125

A bit about the shape of the electrodes and there effect on spark initiating a flame front.

[dinamik2t]

Aha! I 've read everything, thank you Bucketracer and Wob.
At first I was thinking everything in terms of power, as V*I -or I^2*R as Wob said-, and I was confused with the spark energy.
By the way, all those -ctance terms in electronics are so frustrating for foreigners :wacko:

[Ocean1]

Our testing has shown that the best results are achieved when the spark ends between 10 to 15 degrees past TDC.

Buckets are limited to pump gas?

It matters. A top fuelie running 90% nitromethane 10% methanol will run over 60deg BTDC.

Change the fuel and the ground rules change dramatically.

[bucketracer]

all those -ctance terms in electronics are so frustrating for foreigners http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/smilies/wacko.gif

Yes ... sorry about that. but I do think your doing very well with the English language.


Buckets are limited to pump gas?

No ... used to be but can now use Av gas.

A little water injection through the inlet system is on TeeZee's list of things to try. Mainly to cool the fuel mixture like methanol does.