ESE's works engine tuner [Archive] - Page 34

Grumph

5th July 2012, 11:12

A mate was looking at building a 400 twin from a (think it was his old B model) TZ back in the day (for Anstey) in a similar fashion, but it never really got past planning stage.

I have a memory of Mark telling me Antspiss had asked him what was involved - and being severely discouraged when he was told how much work it took.
These two were unusual in that they had the TZ bits, enough money, enough time,the right equipment and motivation...
The motivation was to show the "diesel tuner" - me - that they could do it and it would work. All I had to do was taunt them occasionally that it would never run....

speedpro

6th July 2012, 13:55

24 hours without a new posting. This thread has finally gone off the boil. We'll have to search for it soon after it slips off page 1.

husaberg

6th July 2012, 16:26

Note as in the Aprilia the propensity to wheelie was hard to dial out.

Buckets4Me

7th July 2012, 10:16

24 hours without a new posting. This thread has finally gone off the boil. We'll have to search for it soon after it slips off page 1.

that happens when TZ goes away for work :p

I'm waiting to see what he finds on his travels and what new stuff he has brought :bleh:

FastFred

7th July 2012, 11:08

I'm waiting to see what he finds on his travels and what new stuff he has brought :bleh:

With the fog problems at Auckland and CHCH grounding so many flights he has not been able to get back.

On his travels in the south I hear he went looking for a special AR80 Kawasaki Bucket, he wanted to have a look at it, and may be get a few photos of an interesting F4 bike.

husaberg

7th July 2012, 12:11

OK i am not really sure how much actually applies to the two strokes but it is interesting nevertheless.

gav

7th July 2012, 20:05

With the fog problems at Auckland and CHCH grounding so many flights he has not been able to get back.

On his travels in the south I hear he went looking for a special AR80 Kawasaki Bucket, he wanted to have a look at it, and may be get a few photos of an interesting F4 bike.

Is that the one on the West Coast in a RS125 chassis?

husaberg

7th July 2012, 22:36

Honda maybe indeed be the devil :devil2:

oh there is a couple of real blunders buried there in the text.

husaberg

8th July 2012, 00:06

Reeds vs Disk.
Again with that:msn-wink:

There is a couple of real interesting detail bits in the text.
Well i thought so anyway.

F5 Dave

8th July 2012, 14:07

Yeah I couldn't finish reading it. What a dickhead that guy is. Anyone talking up his supposed carnal pursuits that much is hiding something.

husaberg

8th July 2012, 14:21

Anyone talking up his supposed carnal pursuits that much is hiding something.
The sausage:eek5:

I rescanned and reformated the last page that where the couple of morsels i found interesting were (the yellow stuff an't highlighting its the graphic designer trying to make it hard to read)

husaberg

9th July 2012, 22:49

Gee Have i killed this thread.
oh well here is Honda's new Motogp test rider. I think she brings an interesting array of new/old of skills to the table.:eek5:

http://www.funnypicture.in/funnypicture/1239_going_down.jpg

ief

9th July 2012, 23:30

Bit ot but less then husa's effort so here goes :)

I'm playing with an exhaust idear and was wondering if someone with engmod and the rd 350 ypvs data would be kind enough to run it to see if it is in the ballpark. Should be torqie - wide pb... I think :innocent: (perhaps even (better???) suited for a 58mm stroker?)

tnx in advance.

edit: It should peak between 9000 -9500 rpm btw.

wobbly

10th July 2012, 09:45

F5 Dave

10th July 2012, 12:18

but it has a nice smile & can probably cook well right?:sunny:

wobbly

10th July 2012, 13:16

With that pose going, the smiling cat will be looking you in the eye.

F5 Dave

10th July 2012, 14:35

I was talking about the pipe, I mean it must have some nice qualities:lol:.

wobbly

10th July 2012, 14:52

Yea, its round.

2T Institute

10th July 2012, 15:02

Anyone know what shopping centre that is???

Gigglebutton

10th July 2012, 16:54

Anyone know what shopping centre that is???

Dress for less :-)

ief

10th July 2012, 18:40

I havnt constructed a stock RZ EngMod file but from the numbers given I can say outright the design wont work well at all.
The RZ has 50mm in the duct, and assuming no spigot on the cylinder ie the pipe fits flush on the cylinder face, then the header length is 36% - way too long.
Then the diffuser end is 58% and way too short.
The header angle at 2.35* is way too shallow, and the rear cone setup with 19* then 15.8* is back to front, and is a disaster on the dyno - been there ,tried that - no free lunch.
The stinger is way too big for anything but a full race setup,and the body at 116 dia is simply too fat, and will drag on the ground no matter how well the pipe is tucked under the bike.

Cool, tnx wob!

Back to the drawing board it is then, only thing is i get diffuser end at 62%, don't know where i did go wrong there, will take a look at it later > work awaits. What would you say is a right figure then? (I just compared a bunch of known exhausts and they all seem to be around the 62 % mark)

ps: it's for a regular streetbike, non race, if that makes any difference.

dinamik2t

10th July 2012, 19:15

Dress for less :-)

Undress for more! ;-)

wobbly

10th July 2012, 19:48

Sorry,yes i forgot the 50mm in the cylinder with the diffuser end calc, its 678/1083 = 62%, a very old fashioned number..
For a street setup the longer header and longer diffuser expand the powerband width, but as it has a powervalve this changes everything,due
to the very low blowdown area when the valve is down.
Normal range for header = 30 to 33%, and for the diffuser = 64 to 68%, so I would be shooting for the longer on both for a stock add on pipe.
The longer diffuser gives better max case depression around BDC,later in the cycle, thus boosting mid scavenging efficiency.
Very long - 36% headers only work on piston port engines - like say TZ350,as this then allows a steeper initial diffuser angle, boosting power in the limited band the piston port can operate within.
There is no case for a header angle under 3* incl and dual angle rear cones are best with shallow then steep angles.
The main effect here is to increase the belly volume, thus smearing the wave amplitude over a lower, wider band.
Its always a combination of compromises, but helps you if the basic geometry suits the application,and the physical limitations presented.

dinamik2t

10th July 2012, 22:03

Thank you for the info on pipe building "ignorant" Wob :rolleyes:

Say we have a big single 250cc (oversquare if it matters), for drag use, without limitations on belly D / ground clearance.
Firstly, is it a general rule that pipe-cylinder volume ratio should be close to 30 for hi-perf use? (I thought so because RS, TZ and RSA pipes' ratios are around there)
I originally have a pipe design with an 135D belly and a pipe-cyl volume ratio close to 23.
Using a larger belly D factor (~3.2), the belly became 155D and so I got a 28 pipe-cyl volume ratio. Ok, but that increases the baffle cone angle to >>30*, which I remember that is very high for overrev power.
So, I guess there is some compromise here also, when talking about big displacements? Is there a rule of thumb for such situations?

In fact, inspired from aprilia's multi sectioned baffles, I tried to seperate the one 32* cone to three, with a smaller angle of 27* for the middle longer section. Most likely, there are other more important factors I have messed up with, but the fatter desing yielded higher-rev power and better overrev -even with slightly longer tuned length.
Shouldn't the fatter pipe be less hot, due to more gas expansion, thus act longer?

(I uploaded the two pipe designs below just to show what I tried to do; I don't try to have you to "correct" them, ok? :o :scratch:)

266185266186

edit:
Now that I think of it, the slim pipe had a diffuser horn coef of 1.40, while the plump 1.45. But would this make such a difference?

Frits Overmars

10th July 2012, 23:43

I can't see the two pipe designs you uploaded, but from what I read I would say: don't worry about that cone angle. 32° with Dmax=155 mm ought to work fine.
My rule of thumb: trust your own calculations and build it. If you don't, you'll never know...

dinamik2t

10th July 2012, 23:58

Here, I turned them into Gif:
266192266191

I remember that your starters' pipe calculator also creates big baffle angles, especially in large cc engines (with fat bellies), Frits. So far, I thought it was a "calculation compromise" of the simple form of your equations.:sweatdrop
I am curious -if you can explain within little lines- as to why this happens. (the non-problematic operation with 155D-32* I mean)

The above pipes are originally built under the 'modern' design function of EngMod. I think its based on Blair's equations and Neels' own experience.
Ah, by the way.. A forumer has turned your equations to an online calculator a few months back. It's here: http://www.underdogsracing.com/fospipe.html

Frits Overmars

10th July 2012, 23:59

...I am curious -if you can explain within little lines- as to why this happens. (the non-problematic operation with 155D-32* I mean).The large cone angles come with high piston speeds and short exhaust timings. I can only guess at the exhaust timing you used, but aiming for max. power above 10,000 rpm in a twofifty is definitely provocative. I don't think the time.areas will be up to it. But like I wrote: try it and you'll find out.

Cone angles in themselves have little meaning, especially when reflector cones are dealt with. Short pipes tend to have steep cones and there is nothing wrong with that. The longer a pipe, the more the reflected wave is developing a steep front on its way back to the cylinder and the greater the risk of it developing into a shock wave that is very inefficient in shoving back washed-through fresh mixture.

One last word of advice: I would not build the second pipe in the above drawing. You succeeded in making it look like an Aprilia pipe, but those many cones just require too much cutting and welding. My overall rule of thumb: keep it simple.

dinamik2t

11th July 2012, 06:14

I have a friend cutrollwelding my pipes, so who cares? (only keep quiet about it) :p

My excuses TZ for being so specific here.
The engine is 72by61, 200deg exhaust and STA's sufficient upto 60kW -according to EngMod that is. The sim runs are with a 48 lectron!
But, please, don't let me down like that.:cry: It took at least 15+5min to design and test this pipe!

ief

11th July 2012, 06:48

dinamik2t

11th July 2012, 07:12

You can always calculate the angles by hand or even add some extra cells/formulas in your excel sheet!
It's handwritten but I think will do :d

266194

Or you can just post here and some EngMod user can turn your dimensions to a pic like above. I can do it too, if you send me those through a pm..
Here's your 1st design, assuming a 50mm ex duct.

266193

ief

11th July 2012, 07:44

Got to get it into excel but well, i'm not a star at the stuff but i will get it, don't want to bother other people all the time but tnx for the offer and tnx for the pic!

One thing i noticed tho... i presumed the ratio you where talkin about was simply dividing exhaust volume by cylinder volume but that makes 25.2 and not 35.51 ?

edit: quick guess, could be volume above ehm... lemmy try this :)

edit2: Pfffffffff, gotta love being a math nitwit with this stuff but... Taking the volume above the transfers gave me the right figure so i can only presume.....

Frits Overmars

11th July 2012, 08:40

... i presumed the ratio you where talkin about was simply dividing exhaust volume by cylinder volume but that makes 25.2 and not 35.51 ?edit: quick guess, could be volume above ehm... lemmy try this.
edit2: ... Taking the volume above the transfers gave me the right figure so i can only presume.....Keep it simple, Ief. That ratio should be exhaust volume divided by cylinder volume. 30 is a good value, but it's not critical (and you probably won't be able to achieve it on an RD350; not if you want to keep some cornering clearance).

ief

11th July 2012, 08:46

Ok, then I was right the first time, got thrown of by the pic of dinamik2t where it said 35.51...

Shoot for 30, non critical, got it.

wobbly

11th July 2012, 08:47

I could babble on forever about pipe specifics but here are a few pointers.
Rear cone ( single ) max out at around 28*,the multi angle setup used by Aprilia can be equalled simply by a single cone set at around this angle.
In a 250 it is counter-productive shooting for the same swept/pipe vol ratio as a 125, you need to be aware that there is a finite amount of energy in the wave
running down the pipe, and huge diffuser angles dumping into a huge mid section will loose more of this energy than will create a bigger depression around BDC,or a bigger
plugging pulse heading toward EC from a very steep rear cone..
I have found the best compromise is at around 135 dia.
The very over square engine will theoretically rev harder, but you will by default a have a very heavy piston,plus needing big timings to create the STA necessary for power over 10,000
means any perceived advantage is lost in reality.

dinamik2t

11th July 2012, 12:03

Just to report it, tfr timings were 130-132, ex 200. I don't know whether the whole result is realistic or not; I guess it has to be found out the hard way. :)
And thank you for the advices!

Ok, then I was right the first time, got thrown of by the pic of dinamik2t where it said 35.51...

Shoot for 30, non critical, got it.

Ah, sorry for that. I input the exhaust data under an 125cc engine file.

ief

11th July 2012, 20:29

You can always calculate the angles by hand or even add some extra cells/formulas in your excel sheet!
It's handwritten but I think will do :d

266194

Ok, that was just the push needed to figure out how to get it in excel and it worked! So tnx again :niceone:

dinamik2t

11th July 2012, 20:52

I 'm glad then. :niceone:
One thing I did not write: the opening angle is 2*φ; you should use that to compare apples to apples, as in most references you'll find the full opening angle.

ief

11th July 2012, 20:57

Yep, figured that out allllll by myself :msn-wink:

ief

11th July 2012, 21:26

One more and then I'll try to give it a rest for a while :msn-wink:

Perhaps I'm getting a little ahead of myself (wouldn't be the first time) but something came to mind and well... just to see if i'm on the right track here...

Presume we have an engine/ exhaust combo that works the way it should which relies on low cv for scavenging for a great deal (I think/ presume that's the case with stock rd 350 ypvs ), now we enlarge the crankcase for some reason by a fair amount and there is no possibility to make the exhaust diameter bigger.

Would it then make sense to try to get the stronger part of the pulse sooner (for instance; make the first part of the diff. shorter and more shallow so the second part starts earlier and can be as steep or steeper) and/or make the diff shorter so it will be steeper once again?

Even wilder, would that be the case when using a way bigger carburator/ membrane combo as well? (to a lesser extend I presume)

wobbly

11th July 2012, 21:57

Many combinations will "work " just as well as a myriad of others, when you are offsetting the negative effect of one element by overriding it with the positive effect of another.
That isnt clever, its just using knowledge to mitigate the necessary down side of some one else's arbitrary decision, that was wrong.
Simply put the best way forward, is to limit the down sides,and implement as many truly clever elements as you can, to synergistically work together.
For example , the proven need for huge case vol in a full house race rotary valve engine, isnt even close to being a positive element in a stocker reed valve engine with
seriously crap transfer ducts.
Quite the opposite will produce better power in that scenario.
The smaller case vol gets the flow going sooner and more effeciently when the duct geometry is compromised , but then of course peak power
cant be the object of the end game, with that upsetting mechanical limitation.
Its been proven a hundred times in Jetsjkis etc that have won world titles with ease, due to combining the best effects to limit the inherent issues preventing a better result.

ief

11th July 2012, 22:06

I get that wob, I was merely wondering if I got the relationship right.

But perhaps the train of thought is wrong all together and that is kind of what you are saying I take it :weep:

:lol:

edit: for arguments sake I could say that it was all perfect except it needed the bigger cv or the bigger reed/ carb and the latter isn't that far fledged (and if needed it wasn't an RD/RZ ;))

edit2: running clears the head so they say...hmmm, dunno 'bout that but had another go at it and was thinking it should probably be the other way around i.e. not shortning the diff but if anything short the header and thus making the diff longer to give the desired max depression wob earlier refered to... (?)

Ok, i'll hide under my rock for a while again and go and read and puzzle a little more :D

wobbly

12th July 2012, 12:16

ief

13th July 2012, 04:08

Funny :lol:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/mPBr2rP2-1E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Frits Overmars

13th July 2012, 04:53

Kawasakiputt...

SwePatrick

13th July 2012, 09:13

Just thought i´d share with you.
First startup of mine 136cc Honda MB5,
Ignition just on 'base setting'
Carburator from an another 125cc offroadbike. haven´t even touched the airnozzle, totally unadjusted.
Nothing is good so to speak..

but.. the engine started on first kick.
I have no cooling at the point so i just let it run out of fuel in the carb, i´m saying 'oppss no fuel' at the end.

<object width="400" height="224" ><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="movie" value="http://www.facebook.com/v/10150968788064475" /><embed src="http://www.facebook.com/v/10150968788064475" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="400" height="224"></embed></object>

FastFred

13th July 2012, 14:57

Am I the only one who cant see SwePatrics video clip. I can see the space where its meant to be but not the image or any way to get it started.

F5 Dave

13th July 2012, 15:03

Not even on Farcebook & never intend to be.;)

TZ350

13th July 2012, 16:33

And as far as rules go, the official word from the MNZ Road Race commissioner is it was the INTENT of the rules ... and they also suggested that the Bucket community needs to be self policing

Subject: Re: MNZ rule clarification or rule change required
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:09:19 +1300

Hi again Gavin

The rule reads pretty clearly from where I'm looking - the use of competition engines and gearboxes is specifically disallowed ....... the ORIGINAL wording from 25 odd years ago is probably better, but what we have now is fine.

As one who was building and racing buckets from the first day they escaped the Airforce, I can tell you the intent of the original rules was to encourage the building of performance, not simply the buying of horsepower in the guise of factory race parts. So the rules specifically excluded the use of these .... and there was no such thing as RS125 framed MB100 cylindered MB50's either. But centre-hub steered G4TR's with watercooled RG cylinders grafted on were rightly applauded. Homemade alloy monocoques with VT250 headed CB125 engines were cool, and LEGAL

The Bucket community needs to be self-policing to an extent - if people are building bikes with illegal parts, suggest you do something about it by putting pressure on the guilty parties yourselves

Hope this helps ??????

Cheers
Peter R

This is the bit I like .... "encourage the building of performance". which could be in the engine, frame or handling.

""As one who was building and racing buckets from the first day they escaped the Airforce, I can tell you the intent of the original rules was to encourage the building of performance, not simply the buying of horsepower in the guise of factory race parts. So the rules specifically excluded the use of these ....""

Building Performance, this is what I love about Buckets, and its affordable enough that anyone can try their hand at engine-chasis-handling tuning in whatever way takes their fancy.

Frits Overmars

13th July 2012, 18:09

Building Performance, this is what I love about Buckets, and its affordable enough that anyone can try their hand at engine-chasis-handling tuning in whatever way takes their fancy.That is the way it should be. The challenge for the rulemaker is in giving everybody a free hand while keeping the cost down.

I have spent half my life looking for loopholes in rulebooks. Now I make them (the rulebooks, that is; not the loopholes, hopefully).
There is no such thing as 'the intent of the rules'. Either something is written down, or it isn't. It is the responsibility of the rulemaker to put his intentions into unambiguous writing. If afterwards he starts talking about 'the intentions' he has not done a good job and the other party should get the benefit of the doubt.
And only when safety is involved, should a rule be changed before the end of the season (just my 2 euro-cents).

Ocean1

13th July 2012, 18:37

I have spent half my life looking for loopholes in rulebooks.

I've noticed that very good riders / drivers often complain about dodgy technical shenanigans, they reckon skill alone should dictate who wins.

Which demonstrates a surprising lack of comprehension about exactly what it is that they're piloting. And denies the technically inclined the chance to demonstrate skill of a different sort...

Signed: A Techie.

SwePatrick

13th July 2012, 19:16

Am I the only one who cant see SwePatrics video clip. I can see the space where its meant to be but not the image or any way to get it started.

Maybe now?
It was set to 'restricted', now it´s public.

Grumph

13th July 2012, 19:37

That is the way it should be. The challenge for the rulemaker is in giving everybody a free hand while keeping the cost down.

I have spent half my life looking for loopholes in rulebooks. Now I make them (the rulebooks, that is; not the loopholes, hopefully).
There is no such thing as 'the intent of the rules'. Either something is written down, or it isn't. It is the responsibility of the rulemaker to put his intentions into unambiguous writing. If afterwards he starts talking about 'the intentions' he has not done a good job and the other party should get the benefit of the doubt.
And only when safety is involved, should a rule be changed before the end of the season (just my 2 euro-cents).

Dead right Frits - couldn't have put it better myself. In NZ there's one further factor too - when classes evolve as they must do, we have to try and not obsolete too much of the existing machinery. With a small population base - and by world standards a small number of race bikes here, we must try and keep as many of them active as possible.

Brian d marge

13th July 2012, 20:30

That is the way it should be. The challenge for the rulemaker is in giving everybody a free hand while keeping the cost down.

I have spent half my life looking for loopholes in rulebooks. Now I make them (the rulebooks, that is; not the loopholes, hopefully).
There is no such thing as 'the intent of the rules'. Either something is written down, or it isn't. It is the responsibility of the rulemaker to put his intentions into unambiguous writing. If afterwards he starts talking about 'the intentions' he has not done a good job and the other party should get the benefit of the doubt.
And only when safety is involved, should a rule be changed before the end of the season (just my 2 euro-cents).
oh its YOU .....my arch nemisis Moriaty ..... be afraid , very afraid I will "bend " those rules ....

Stephen

ief

13th July 2012, 23:06

Diffuser positioning is a very hard variable to pin down,but experience has shown that moving the steep part of the flare closer to the header
helps to pump up the power higher in the rev range.
Up to a point though.
Early versions of Aprilia pipes had the steep cone connected directly to the header.
But later ( more powerful ) versions had a short additional section that pushed the steep cone further out, but increased its angle.
This gave a deeper depression closer to BDC, even though it started later.
The other idea that works well also for many designs is the use of a shallow,short,end diffuser.
This increases the main diffuser angle again, and also increases the belly volume.

You have to be careful though with this clever stuff when dealing with crap transfer ducts.
Very effective and well timed diffuser action, can easily create so much depression around BDC, that the compromised transfers cant keep control
over the scavenging stream integrity.
Alot of the fresh charge disappears out the pipe, without clearing out the remnant exhaust residuals.
Fat pipes dont work on things like RDs - even if you could fit them in.

And tnx again Wob, you've given me enough stuff to contemplate over for months (years? ;))

I didn't want to do this but well, there's this guy on a rd forum who I'm helping out with this but it is more of the blind helping the cripple I'm afraid.

So, this is what I came up for him, incorperating Wob's latest comments (not followed to the letter but close enough I hope) It doesn't have to be the top pipe we all are looking for but if it will be just a decent pipe for a stock bike, fit enough to go to the trouble of building it with a decent chance of working I'd be more than happy.

L 305 210 148 74 73 223
D 38 52 79 110 110 95 23

ps: I'll tell him to fine tune the mid and the stinger...

ief

14th July 2012, 05:19

yihaa, stoked is what I am, someone over there was friendly enough to run it in engmod and although that's not the real world i thought it looked pretty good, be it, it might need some help in the 8k region. Perhaps I'm getting a bit over excited but hey, first effort, not to shabby I think.

Couldn't have done it without your helping clues Wob!

dinamik2t

14th July 2012, 05:51

I would look at inlet length or reed petal width for that 8k belly. Or at least I believe it's one of those.. :)

By the way.. Are there any news from TZ's bike?? Long time-no see!

ief

14th July 2012, 06:01

Thought he was/ is away for his job?

The belly thing, yeah, perhaps a reedspacer will help... first let him build the things and see what they really do :headbang:

Oh, now you're here and I'm all excited and stuff... You think you could make one of those nice piccies again, that would be the crown on the work ;)

richban

14th July 2012, 08:40

By the way.. Are there any news from TZ's bike?? Long time-no see!

Maybe he's locked in the workshop with some big events coming up. I am expecting a complete and shinny new bike to contend with on the track. The arms race continues.:apumpin:

TZ350

14th July 2012, 10:22

The last few days I have been working on fitting the TPS and knock sensor.

266382

Got the TPS and Knock Sensor fitted and wired up. A few people have pointed out that with mounting the knock sensor pickup on the copper head fin, it may not work as intended.

I have run the engine up and I think they are right.

I will have to cut some finning away so the det sensor can be mounted on a head bolt.

266381

When I ran the motor up the green lights flashed like they should so the sensor is probably working OK. But even though I could hear audible deto the deto light did not flash so I expect I will have to change the way the pickup is physically mounted.

266379 266380

I have the deto black box plugged into one of the Ignitec's inputs and it was meant to swap maps if it saw any deto. I was going to develop a strong 2D full throtle map first but the deto thing is not working properly yet.

266383266378

Then when you tell the Ignitec to look at the TPS you get a 3D map. The Ignitec software takes the previous 2D map and graphs it along the 100% line then you get to adjust the other points on the map.

You can see the TPS position at the left side and bottom of the map. When the engine is running a moving line shows you where the RPM is.

When I get all of this working properly I will have a system that can also turn on/off things like a power jet, ATAC valve, water injection, 24/7 reed valve or Vetec valve and control a trombone pipe for various TPS and RPM combinations.

I have some ideas I would like to try.

husaberg

14th July 2012, 10:22

round and round up and down..
http://www.pattakon.com/patop/PatOP1.gif

The last few days I have been working on fitting the TPS and knock sensor. I will sort the pictures when I get home tonight.

TZ, those handle bars are they ferrous?:eek5:

http://www.deraceheldenvanweleer.nl/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=51.0;attach=16337; image
http://www.deraceheldenvanweleer.nl/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=51.0;attach=16789; imagehttp://www.deraceheldenvanweleer.nl/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=51.0;attach=17759; imagehttp://www.deraceheldenvanweleer.nl/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=51.0;attach=621;im agehttp://www.deraceheldenvanweleer.nl/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=51.0;attach=17830; imagehttp://www.deraceheldenvanweleer.nl/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=51.0;attach=229;im agehttp://www.deraceheldenvanweleer.nl/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=51.0;attach=828;im agehttp://www.deraceheldenvanweleer.nl/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=51.0;attach=5596;i mage

Buckets4Me

14th July 2012, 12:25

round and round up and down..
http://www.pattakon.com/patop/PatOP1.gif

TZ, those handle bars are they ferrous?:eek5:

mild steel and unbendable :p

TZ350

14th July 2012, 14:14

mild steel and unbendable :p

266400

You can also see the spare levers handily cable tied to the fork tubes for a quick change over after a crash .... who said Bucket Racers aren't prepaired.

richban

14th July 2012, 15:25

266400

You can also see the spare levers handily cable tied to the fork tubes for a quick change over after a crash .... who said Bucket Racers aren't prepaired.

I can also see a way to drop 2kg out of the front. Them bars must weigh a heap.

husaberg

14th July 2012, 15:28

266400

You can also see the spare levers handily cable tied to the fork tubes for a quick change over after a crash .... who said Bucket Racers aren't prepaired.

Boy scout dib dib.

I see heavy things......

If say the bike is 90kg and 30hp i would guess that its arround that.
So for every 3 kg removed. It will feel 1 hp more powerful everywhere (right across the rev range.)

So if you remove 18kg it will be the equivalent of 6hp more powerful in acceleration at least.:whistle:

Buckets4Me

14th July 2012, 19:48

Boy scout dib dib.

I see heavy things......

If say the bike is 90kg and 30hp i would guess that its arround that.
So for every 3 kg removed. It will feel 1 hp more powerful everywhere (right across the rev range.)

So if you remove 18kg it will be the equivalent of 6hp more powerful in acceleration at least.:whistle:

the real reason that the leavers are cable tied to the bike has nothing to do with being handy when you crash and everything to do with stoping the other riders pinching them when they crash :p

you should hear how many BAD (sailer type ) words where said when the bike was crashed in the 2 hour and the levers that where prepered for the bike had gone missing :mad:

gav

14th July 2012, 19:53

Does he have spare tyres bungeed to the seat as well? :killingme:killingme

TZ350

14th July 2012, 20:15

the real reason that the leavers are cable tied to the bike has nothing to do with being handy when you crash and everything to do with stoping the other riders pinching them when they crash http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Thats so true 2 ...

Does he have spare tyres bungeed to the seat as well? :killingme:killingme

No I wear them around my waist ..... :laugh:

speedpro

14th July 2012, 21:16

You're going to need wider rims . . . .

husaberg

14th July 2012, 21:21

You're going to need wider rims . . . .

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ2XQ6MQct-ztiPQyOJRlw5Z0-W0W08IAk1leidgchAYL46MPeU1fSYwpbNXg

TZ350

14th July 2012, 21:24

You're going to need wider rims . . . .

Sun Glasses

266438

Yep, you just gotta love those wider rims .....

husaberg

14th July 2012, 21:32

Sun Glasses

266438

Yep, you just gotta love those wider rims .....

http://www.angrycritter.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Elephant-tube.jpg

Sorry i shouldn't hurl petrified missiles from my glass abode.:Oops:

TZ350

14th July 2012, 21:40

Funny but ... LOL

husaberg

14th July 2012, 22:06

Seriously any plans to trim the weight a bit more

TZ350

14th July 2012, 22:56

Seriously any plans to trim the weight a bit more

What, the bikes or mine? working on both.

TZ350

15th July 2012, 10:23

Good luck with the Deto sensing TZ. I like the little warning instrument!

Here's how I mounted my sensor. I drilled-tapped an old head bolt and screwed a stud.

263052263051

My sensor has a PN 0-261-231-001,

266445

What are the two wires? is one meant to be earthed or is there two sensor outputs and the earth is through the mounting surface.

Have you been able to use your sensor yet and see any deto?

TZ350

15th July 2012, 10:29

Here is the latest version ; using a jaycar frequency counter/switch to drive a R1 servo motor to operate the spool valve on the header pipe

266443266444

Using a DPDT switch mounted on the servo to reverse the motor - unless someone can point me at an electronic limit/polarity switch to make use of the servo`s in built potentiometer ??

How has this worked out? Ken have you been able to try it?

husaberg

15th July 2012, 14:08

Are our crankcases cool enough?

Frits mentioned in his cooling cooling cooling post and showed some shouds and some fins explained the crankcases are also water cooled

the reason i ask is i have noticed a couple of trends.
Why because air expands when its heated.
Crankcases compression is now lower...... air heats when its compressed.
Transfers streams are directed avoid the piston crown (the crown is hot)

All very obvious i know but what is the hp drop per deg c increase of the crankcase mixture?
Frits mentioned (i think) to adequately cool the transfers would require a rad as big as the engines, would that be a bad thing and is there other ways?

wobbly

15th July 2012, 14:49

Old, cast Rotax cases,make better power than CNC billet replica ones as the rough cast surface sheds heat more effectively.
Even where both are watercooled.
On the dyno the CNC cases heat fade very quickly.

Very very little transfer flow is created due to case com, except in your lawnmower,its all to do with the diffuser depression around BDC.

And there is a Catch 22 happening with the piston.
Transfer flow needs to attach to the crown to cool it, but this heat transfer affects the volumetric efficiency badly.
Cant have one without the other, but the piston simply isnt able to shed heat fast enough, just thru the ring and skirt alone to the cylinder wall.

In a 125 engine at 50 Hp, raising the head exit temp from 50 to 60* looses a couple of Hp instantly.

The deto sensors are connected one wire to earth, the other to the guage.
A good direct connection to the guage and chassis earth is essential.
In the units I have tested with two wires I havnt seen any connection of the sensor body to either of the wires and polarity doesnt seem to matter - except where there is a shield
strap.

TZ350

15th July 2012, 16:56

The deto sensors are connected one wire to earth, the other to the guage. A good direct connection to the guage and chassis earth is essential. In the units I have tested with two wires I havnt seen any connection of the sensor body to either of the wires and polarity doesnt seem to matter - except where there is a shield strap.

Thanks for confirming that, I was concerned because I had to guess, but it turns out I connected it properly.

The earth in my arrangement connects everything in a star arrangement, Battery, Ignitec, Deto Filter, Deto Pickup, Frame, Ignition Coil and Engine.

There are direct paths between complimentry pairs like Ignitec and LT side of the coil and engine and HT side of the coil and everything is tied to ground without the ground return for the LV side having to share a direct path with any HV stuff.

With my wiring layout everything is connected by copper wire to earth (or 0V at the center of the star), and the frame is just one element directly tied to earth.

The frame itself is not intended to be an earth path for anything as there is a piece of 0V copper wire for everything thats doing the earthing job. This star arrangement should cut down on signal noise.

Farmaken

15th July 2012, 17:39

Hi TZ, ran the ATAC this weekend - hard to know how much difference it makes but does seem to work :cool:

TZ350

15th July 2012, 17:52

... ran the ATAC this weekend - hard to know how much difference it makes but does seem to work ...

Thanks, thats very interesting, I am looking forward to being able to move onto this part of the project myself.

husaberg

15th July 2012, 18:34

Thanks, thats very interesting, I am looking forward to being able to move onto this part of the project myself.

First one is good.

The second one is shinnier and has clearer pics (but he has no idea LOL)

Keen observers will notice the offset butterfly so as to minimise flow disruption. Plus it is orientated to further minimise the disruption to flow.(Blade direction)
As has been previously pointed out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zVY4PJP5WDg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tY7D0jLcfws

Hi TZ, ran the ATAC this weekend - hard to know how much difference it makes but does seem to work :cool:

Back to the shed? For mk2 I must admit i missed that little gem myself as well
What is yours made from a carb butterfly?
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=263881&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1337489148

dinamik2t

15th July 2012, 19:59

266445

What are the two wires? is one meant to be earthed or is there two sensor outputs and the earth is through the mounting surface.

Have you been able to use your sensor yet and see any deto?

The deto sensors are connected one wire to earth, the other to the guage.
A good direct connection to the guage and chassis earth is essential.
In the units I have tested with two wires I havnt seen any connection of the sensor body to either of the wires and polarity doesnt seem to matter - except where there is a shield
strap.

Look at the 2nd page here: http://www.bosch.com.au/content/language1/downloads/sensors_knock.pdf
The two-wire sensors have their pins mentioned as "signal" - both of them. So I guess it just does a "|Vsignal1-Vsignal2|" and it's independant of polarity, as Wob already said.
The third wire of some sensors is mentioned as "shield".

No, unfortunately I haven't tried mine. I am saving some € to buy the gauge.

Here's some installation instructions:

Installation instructions
The sensor’s metal surfaces must make
direct contact. No washers of any type are
to be used when fastening the sensors.
The mounting-hole contact surface should
be of high quality to ensure low-resonance
sensor coupling at the measuring point.
The sensor cable is to be laid such that
there is no possibility of sympathetic
oscillations being generated. The sensor
must not come into contact with liquids for
longer periods.

TZ350

15th July 2012, 20:20

Thanks ...

Farmaken

15th July 2012, 20:36

Back to the shed? For mk2 I must admit i missed that little gem myself as well
What is yours made from a carb butterfly?
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=263881&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1337489148[/QUOTE]

Hi Husa, made that one from a tf carb flange.

Mk 2 is a spool type rotary valve

266482

Decided Mk 1 was too far from the header ID with the spindle in line with the gas flow

F5 Dave

15th July 2012, 20:44

I was intending for the Mk1 version of my det sensor to use it on aircooled head by drilling a fin & putting a nut behind a fin & bolting it there. Mk2 w/c head I will have a tapped hole. Maybe the fins will vibrate too much & isolate the knock?

My gauge order got lost but apparently is shipping now.

My det sensor ( a subi one) is a Jap made one with one wire. I clamped a bolt through it as an earth & connected the wire to a scope & gave it a few bangs & the piezo generates almost 5V.

How much are you intending to pull out when in det? Am I reading 10? I would have thought 3 deg would be ample.

Yow Ling

15th July 2012, 20:56

I was intending for the Mk1 version of my det sensor to use it on aircooled head by drilling a fin & putting a nut behind a fin & bolting it there. Mk2 w/c head I will have a tapped hole. Maybe the fins will vibrate too much & isolate the knock?
.

My take on it was it had to be mounted on a stud or in the block of a car engine , bolting it to a fin is going to introduce tons of ringing and other noise. The instructions pretty keen on torquing it down pretty tight

F5 Dave

15th July 2012, 21:08

So in that case, I'll have to bolt to a more solid section of the head. Can't do a head bolt on an MB.

TZ350

15th July 2012, 21:08

How much are you intending to pull out when in det? Am I reading 10? I would have thought 3 deg would be ample.

This is all new to me so not sure, just want to get it all mounted and connected up properly so it functions then play with it. I am hoping a few people will post some more pointers about timing and retard etc.

husaberg

15th July 2012, 21:25

Ok how did i miss this i have to get from a German on the french Pitlane thread whats up with that next thing we will all be riding around on Japanese bike and have German cars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Y91Jms6MyCY

F5 Dave

15th July 2012, 21:39

Probably the majority of the improvement in power smoothing came from the programmable ign. That said big cylinder, maybe there is an advantage that wouldn't be there on small cylinder.

Watched some modern mx racing recently. Sounds dreadful, - like a field of farty bikes:oi-grr:. Would be good to see some real engines spice things up.

gav

15th July 2012, 21:53

Buckets4Me

15th July 2012, 22:04

I've got tyhe mag that this was in somewhere will try and scan it for ya

husaberg

15th July 2012, 22:15

I've got tyhe mag that this was in somewhere will try and scan it for ya

I have a Alloy framed CR500 i will let you ride it sometime:cool:
I doubt they are really 70hp 50 yes 70 I really doubt it. Fun though.....

Buckets4Me

15th July 2012, 22:18

I have a Alloy framed CR500 i will let you ride it sometime:cool:
I doubt they are really 70hp 50 yes 70 I really doubt it. Fun though.....

I have an rm250 and that enough for me thanks :drool:

unless I can get the rules changed and fit the 500 into my rs chassie ( now that would stick it to the 4 bangers)

F5 Dave

15th July 2012, 22:21

it would probably just crack the frame before you got out of 3rd. Yeah people believe hp claims.

TZ350

15th July 2012, 22:22

For those that want to know what F4/5 racing is realy about ....

Race commisioner Peter Rummage talking about Buckets (officialy the F4 & F5 class) ....

Hi again Gavin

As one who was building and racing buckets from the first day they escaped the Airforce, I can tell you the intent of the original rules was to encourage the building of performance, not simply the buying of horsepower in the guise of factory race parts.

Cheers
Peter R

Buckets was not conceived as an entry level race class, it can be for some but it really was conceived as a constructors class with certain eligibility rules designed to make sweat equity and cleverness count for more than $$$$$.

From day one there was serious tuning and construction going on.

For a true buy it and ride it entry level race class you need to look at street stocks or super lights or whatever the current small road bike limited modification class is called this week.

Buckets as Cheap Entry Level racing ...... well it can be, but you will have to do some serious hands on work and be a talented rider to be competitive at the pointy end.

husaberg

15th July 2012, 22:49

I have an rm250 and that enough for me thanks :drool:

unless I can get the rules changed and fit the 500 into my rs chassie ( now that would stick it to the 4 bangers)

up to 500cc singles used to be legal for F3.
MNZ site won't work for me at the moment for the current rules.
It would get hammered by a Wobbly RZ400.

My frame that i got has cut out from what i believe was a YZ250 motor i bet it was more tourquey but no faster than the RS125 motor

it would probably just crack the frame before you got out of 3rd. Yeah people believe hp claims.
I thing Dave would be right. The Cr250 frame has trouble damping the vibes. It would be better in a steel frame. Admitidly mine is an old 98 frame that is more like a NSR250 in dimensions.

Buckets4Me

16th July 2012, 06:21

up to 500cc singles used to be legal for F3.
MNZ site won't work for me at the moment for the current rules.
It would get hammered by a Wobbly RZ400.

thats why I said 4 bangers :2thumbsup

husaberg

16th July 2012, 06:53

I have an rm250 and that enough for me thanks :drool:

unless I can get the rules changed and fit the 500 into my rs chassie ( now that would stick it to the 4 bangers)

thats why I said 4 bangers :2thumbsup
..............

wobbly

16th July 2012, 08:45

The det amp is very selective about displaying real deto signals.
You simply wind in the sensitivity such that the two greens are on and then the orange will tell you where you are getting close
to a knock.
Wind up the sensitivity again and the red will come on in the same spot as the orange did before.
Pull out a degree or two at that rpm and the red will go out - leaving the orange semi warning.
Keep doing this till the curve is optimised.
It works the other way as well, no orange and you can be sure you dont have enough advance at that point.
Then you can run the earth line back to the Ignitech with only one or two degrees of deto retard a a failsafe.
If you try to run say 3* of retard with the sensor output connected to the Ignitech, it works so fast the light never comes on, so you cant see whats happening.

Still sitting here worrying about the Superlight rule change - 3 weeks ago the confirmation was supposed to be published, no one is saying a thing.

F5 Dave

16th July 2012, 10:02

Thanks for the setup tips.

MNZ? Well they'll be more concerned with MX mini rules.

Grumph

16th July 2012, 14:22

Thanks for the setup tips.

MNZ? Well they'll be more concerned with MX mini rules.

Very true - but you've got to remember there are more angry parents of Mini MX riders than there are Superlite participants...
And the gentlemanly (cough) Superlite crowd are not likely to assault stewards.

Remember Wob...you're not paranoid if they really are out to get you.....keep taking the meds.

F5 Dave

16th July 2012, 14:26

Exactly my line of reasoning.

wobbly

16th July 2012, 16:44

So then I dont understand even more - if there is one rule change creating problems for the Board then why not
issue the proposed non controversial changes with an approval,and state that the MX class will be dealt with in due course.
Just appearing to do nothing - in breach of the constitutional requirement of ratifying/publishing approved rule changes at the end of last month,would seem to be
causing more issues than it solves for anyone.

husaberg

16th July 2012, 16:50

Very true - but you've got to remember there are more angry parents of Mini MX riders than there are Superlite participants...
And the gentlemanly (cough) Superlite crowd are not likely to assault stewards.

Remember Wob...you're not paranoid if they really are out to get you.....keep taking the meds.

Thanks for the setup tips.

MNZ? Well they'll be more concerned with MX mini rules.

As a mini dad that angers me and it's just a well you are not a MNZ official otherwise i would take that out on you :lol:

Sorry it's sad but true there is a small percentage of Mini mums and dads that think there is big sponsorship money and endorsements at stake. Normally unfortunately they take it out of there kids. But the non enforcement at times of the out of flag rules, i must admit, does at times frustrate me. But i bite my tongue and remember its all about fun. The biggest problem is the money some of these people spend to try and gain an advantage. Silly money....seriously.

Oh Wob the MNZ is a slow beast lethargic, with lots of agendas.But i guess you already knew that from the BSL500
I wish TZ would publish the first reply to Gav. then everyone could gain an an idea of MNZ's (Ramage's?) thinking and inability to give a coherent answer to what is a simple question.
It was super funny.

Grumph

16th July 2012, 19:29

As a mini dad that angers me and it's just a well you are not a MNZ official otherwise i would take that out on you :lol:

Sorry it's sad but true there is a small percentage of Mini mums and dads that think there is big sponsorship money and endorsements at stake. Normally unfortunately they take it out of there kids. But the non enforcement at times of the out of flag rules, i must admit, does at times frustrate me. But i bite my tongue and remember its all about fun. The biggest problem is the money some of these people spend to try and gain an advantage. Silly money....seriously.

Go through a stewards course and hear the war stories - and in one case, get shown the scars....the SI is a boy scout jamboree compared to the NI. Knives have been pulled.....

Oh Wob the MNZ is a slow beast lethargic, with lots of agendas.But i guess you already knew that from the BSL500
I wish TZ would publish the first reply to Gav. then everyone could gain an an idea of MNZ's (Ramage's?) thinking and inability to give a coherent answer to what is a simple question.
It was super funny.

Agree - it's set up to be slow deliberately so as not to obsolete something mid season - but of course that has happened....

husaberg

16th July 2012, 19:53

Agree - it's set up to be slow deliberately so as not to obsolete something mid season - but of course that has happened....

mmm... While Camels does alright racing against other Camels. Put one against a Racehorse's and all you will see is daylight.
(I guess overseas readers may not understand this analogy but i guess Greg will) ;)
The guy credited with this phrase designed a few of the bits TZ has adapted to his bike as well.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee

F5 Dave

17th July 2012, 09:41

Well I have a nice chunk of spare ally where the reedblock used to be. This should be ok for the det sensor? I can just cut a 6mm hole out to 8mm & bolt her up nice.

Ok its not near the combustion chamber, but it is part of the barrel. Thoughts?

wobbly

17th July 2012, 14:07

The shock waves from deto will be transmitted right thru the cylinder and the case.
I have seen many times where for no apparent reason the head or barrel studs loosen off - not because they weren't torqued correctly, but due to the
gasket being crushed momentarily from deto.
Many cars have the det sensors on the side of the block,some with multiple sensors for cylinder pairs.
All that happens when the sensor is further away from the chamber is that the shock intensity is reduced, so the sensitivity of the amp must be wound up - not an issue.

F5 Dave

17th July 2012, 14:23

Sounds like a plan, at least until the WC head is done. Thanks. Now I just have to wait till the damn gauge turns up.

Brian d marge

17th July 2012, 14:56

TZ350

17th July 2012, 17:43

Relocated the knock sensor. I found some steel head bolts and faced one off, then drilled and tapped it. And made a standoff that was carefully faced off as the knock sensor likes to be securely mounted on a very flat surface. The black goop (silicon glue) on the blue wire is there as a strain relief and hopefully it will stop the vibration breaking the wire where it is attached to the copper head fin.

Buckets4Me

17th July 2012, 18:22

http://www.nzsbk.com/2012/07/avalon-biddle-takes-another-win-in.html?spref=fb

:banana::clap::niceone: :wari: :first:

Drew

17th July 2012, 19:01

I am sure that this has already been covered guys, but 210 pages of this is just too much to read through.

Is anyone running an o2 sensor on their two smoke?

bucketracer

17th July 2012, 19:48

I am sure that this has already been covered guys, but 210 pages of this is just too much to read through.

I am not sure about the O2 sensor thing .....

But there are other ways of finding interesting posts without having to flick through all the pages.

On most decade pages 100 110 120 130 Etc ..... there is a links or interesting post collection.

Page 500 has a bit of an index and links to how to get 28-30 hp from a 125.

And if you use thread tools you can trawl through all the thousands of pictures on the ESE thread which then lead to the relevant post.

husaberg

17th July 2012, 19:55

I am not sure about the O2 sensor thing .....

But there are other ways of finding interesting posts without having to flick through all the pages.

On most decade pages 100 110 120 130 Etc ..... there is a links or interesting post collection.

Page 500 has a bit of an index and links to how to get 28-30 hp from a 125.

And if you use thread tools you can trawl through all the thousands of pictures on the ESE thread which then lead to the relevant post.

Or you the thread search for key words.
From memory Cagiva definitely did on the injected bike maybe lambda probe (whoops wob said it was a EGT) there is a site i have seen that details doing a diy one on a (NSR125 i think). I will see if i can find it. I would guess at least it will have to be the heated 3 wire type and i guess the life expectancy will be short esp with dirty combustion and lead fuels but i know f all.

Bren_chch

17th July 2012, 20:26

chur! i am building one of these fancy engines... i cant understand why more havent! all the info is here and elsewhere.

cheers ese

husaberg

17th July 2012, 20:41

I found the article it looks like the page may be dead i will see if i can put the text into a word file not as in depth as i hoped.
I will try to find the page though.

wobbly

17th July 2012, 22:14

Lambda is not a reliable tool for any length of time in a 2T.
The heated ones last a bit longer but no matter what probe type is used they get contaminated and dont read correctly in a very short time frame.
EGT is very simple.If you find peak power at say 1240* ,and know what the RAD was on the dyno,then its easy to construct a jetting pattern.
Every 3% rad = 1 jet size in a Kehin or Dellorto that use metric sized jet holes.
Always start on the rich side and jet down to the set EGT.
Best example I can give was at Vegas World Kart Champs.
In practice we went down one or two jets every run - as long as we saw a temp rise around 50* per jet,and the ground strap mark was clean at 3/4 length, then we were making more power.
At RAD 101 we had 1260, going one more only raised egt about 20* so NFG going there.
This was a 162 jet before we changed.
On qualifying morning it was cool and RAD104 - up one jet to 165 and we saw 1255 - on the money, qualified 2nd by 0.003 sec.
First race after lunch was RAD98, down 2 jets, won the first heat easily and saw 1265* and immediately were accused of cheating,for blitzing the Yank Champ down the shute..
He hadnt jetted down enough for the hot afternoon RAD change.
Its that simple,once you have a baseline.
You can use the egt and the CHT as well, but thats another story.

husaberg

17th July 2012, 22:43

dmcca

18th July 2012, 00:17

I'm glad the discussion has come back to egt, etc... My new digatron data logger just arrived!

Any specific tips for tuning with egt and cht? Ive read as much as I can find but if anyone has any words of wisdom I'm all ears...

Haufen

18th July 2012, 04:19

Lambda is not a reliable tool for any length of time in a 2T.
The heated ones last a bit longer but no matter what probe type is used they get contaminated and dont read correctly in a very short time frame.

You can get heated probes to last pretty long if you connect them to the exhaust via a small metal tubing that is welded to the exhaust and a high temp silicone hose which reaches from the tube to the probe. Have you tried this, yet?

wobbly

18th July 2012, 08:44

Have tried the remote hose to the Lambda thing and although the probe lasted better it was slow responding.to the extent that it is impossible to log the Lambda
output against rpm/Hp on the printout.
The reading I think was about 2000 rpm behind the engine when accelerating at 300 rpm/sec.
Dynojet has an expensive add on kit that uses a pump to draw the gas thru a tube that goes in the muffler, this has a filter element in it so should make the probe reliable.
But it doesnt work on a 2T - even apart from having something affecting the test by altering the outlet area of the muffler itself..
I have seen one Dynojet session where the customer had to pay for 2 probes in a 4 hour test cycle. NFG.

Re using EGT and CHT.
The only probes that are worth shit come from Exhaust Gas Technologies.They guarantee them for 2 years,and I have had no problems since changing to them.
They sell probes to Nascar/IRL/F1/MotoGP teams with a guarantee - the only guys to do this with exposed tip,high speed temp sensors.
The company sells Digatron gauges on Ebay,and having just started to use one with 2 screens and 5 functions - im sold.
The ones sold by Mychron etc for kart use are crap, seen several brand new setup last two laps.

Using the two gauges together,especially if you have say a Digitron data logging gauge,makes jetting much easyer.
Basically when the jets are rich, both egt and cht will rise then fall together,when doing a full throttle all gear run.
You can keep dropping jets and be sure that all is well as long as they both rise together - with the one caveat I stated above.
One Keihin main jet size should lift the egt around 50*F, if you only get 20* rise from a previous jet then what is happening is this.
There is only "x" amount of energy in the fuel ingested.This can end up in the trapped,expanding gas - making power.
It can end up in the water, via the head and cylinder wall,and depending upon the com or ignition point,alot simply exits the port and heats up the pipe.
BUT - as soon as you go overly lean,the combustion pressure/temp gets to a point where instead of heating the combustion charge, the flame front starts creating free radicals.
This uses a huge amount of the available energy,and instantly the egt drops.
Once free radicals have formed,they keep the process going,causing destructive deto to get worse and worse - thus the egt drops thru the floor.
You need exposed tip,fast probes to see this quick enough to save the engine.

Thus on the gauge,the CHT keeps rising fast,but the EGT slows and can drop down again.
In the above example I gave, the egt only rising 20*F pointed instantly to the fact that we were approaching deto point.
By watching the two temps track upwards together it is real easy to get a handle on what the engine wants, to make peak power - just short of deto.

dmcca

18th July 2012, 10:05

Great info wobbly, thank you again!

I got the 4 screen digatron and will be logging egt, cht, water temp, air temp and rpm so there's going to be plenty of data for me to study and learn from... How reliable though is cht on a water cooled engine? I'm guessing that all the same patterns will be there just dulled a bit due to the cooling and using cht alone once the main tuning is done to keep an eye on things is a no no.

I'm planning on studying the data and playing with jetting for a while to learn how my bike responds to a range of situations... Then I've got an ecotrons EFI kit and one of their AFR gauges coming, should be here in the next day or so... I will 'attempt' to convert it to EFI with a few modifications to their kit. Hopefully i can use the data gathered from the carb setup as something to aim for when creating the fuel maps in order to get it running initially, then tune further from there. I'll save the AFR for when the tuning is almost finished. Should keep me busy (and send me slightly insane) for a while. Worst case is that there will be a cheap efi kit on eBay soon and I'll be rebuilding my engine... again.

wobbly

18th July 2012, 12:05

CHT is dead accurate on a watercooled head as far as the rising temp is concerned.
The washer reads the heat load into the plug,its a bit slower than on an air cooled engine but the data is still valid.
More important is the fast response needed for EGT tracking,so you see immediately the temp slowing and then dropping when deto sets in.

The A/F meter is no different than the Lamda readout - the sensor soon dies due to contamination of the sensing surface.NFG.

The last injection setup I worked on we built an interface for the ECU that converted the EGT reading to the Lambda scale that the computer recognised.
This worked well on a Jetski setup,that is usuall all go or none.

wax

18th July 2012, 12:11

Wobbly you seem to like the digatron, Im running a mychron 4 with gps data logging etc. Its a two temp I use it to do egt as well as water temp as far as temps are concerend.
Have you played with these gauges at all, why do you prefer the dgiatron over them

F5 Dave

18th July 2012, 13:01

. . ..If you find peak power at say 1240* ,and know what the RAD was on the dyno,then its easy to construct a jetting pattern.
. . . - as long as we saw a temp rise around 50* per jet,and the ground strap mark was clean at 3/4 length, then we were making more power.
At RAD 101 we had 1260, going one more only raised egt about 20* so NFG going there.
. . . .

Great description, but I'm a little confused. So on the dyno you saw 1240deg at peak power. I would have thought at that time you would err on the lower side of the temp.

But are you saying that that calibrates the guage & you try get close to that & then keep goin up until it stops rising linear for that final bit?

At this stage presumably if you have a det guage or counter you could get away from needing a CHT perhaps?

andersonv21

18th July 2012, 15:24

Welp, I guess it is about time I contribute something to this forum...

Don't want to step on Wob's toes, but...

I have used a lot of the data loggers that are available (Motec, Aim, Digatron, Pi, CDS, Racepak) and...

The Mychron is a good starter setup, but if you decide to go beyond the basic logger and GPS, expansions are expensive and limited. I outgrew mine in a year... Most of the issues like Wob mentioned are actually just due to poor leads: user setup, and not properly strain relieved, yellow tc connectors not tight (yeah they come from the factory like that..) Easily fixed before you install with some silicone and shrink tubing. You don't have to have the Digatron to use the good open tip EGT's Wob mentioned, any logger with k-type will work. (And Yes, the open tip E.G.T. egt probes are as good as Wob says)

The best bang for your buck, full on data logging is without a doubt the AIM Evo4 (same guys as Mychron). Comes with the GPS, and has virtually unlimited expandability (number of channels). The best part is you can run whatever sensor your heart desires or can dream up (differential pressure for aero, ultrasonic distance, tire temps etc.) Price is close to the Mychron, gps, and an expansion module! And AIM has the most user friendly software I have used. If you want to get beyond the 3 basic temps, this is the ticket. Great stuff.

The only thing better is a full on Motec system, awesome stuff but WAY out of the price range for the average racer.

Haven't personally sorted out the lambda completely yet (only run it twice), but they can work, the snowmobile guys have been using them successfully for years. What I have learned so far is keep the pipe temp up and engine clean so the sensor temp can stay up and not foul. If it sees a real rich condition for an extended period of time (like warming up engine for dyno run maybe?) you'll have issues.

wobbly

18th July 2012, 18:46

I will reply later to the several questions on here, but for now im into a single malt bottle - the Superlight class rule change has been ratified.
So as soon as the glass is fitted, the RZ400 Aprilia will be at a track day.
Here is the dyno video of it being thrashed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE9am_QCzwc&feature=plcp

TZ350

18th July 2012, 19:55

Good job Wob, glad to hear your efforts are going to get onto the track OK...... :jerry: ... go the 2-Strokers

I have been playing on the dyno too and with something completely at the other end of the scale.

The Std Suzuki GP125 makes about 12rwhp (15 crank) this one fitted with a Honda RS125 pipe and no other modifications makes 14 on 96 oct pump gas.

266580

We have always wanted to try 96 vis 100 Av gas. So with no other changes. Red line 96 and Blue line 100 Av Gas.

I think there might be something different about the burn rates, we will explore 96 or even 91 with tuning and compression adjustments in one of our engines some time soon.

TZ350

18th July 2012, 20:03

Page 560 ...

ief

19th July 2012, 08:16

We have always wanted to try 96 vis 100 Av gas. So with no other changes. Red line 96 and Blue line 100 Av Gas.

I think there might be something different about the burn rates, we will explore 96 or even 91 with tuning and compression adjustments in one of our engines some time soon.

Isn't that the whole idear behind it, to prevent detonation. Not sure what you want to find out with this? When you are making serious power on say 96 and can't stop it detonating in spite of all clever solutions then it would be time to go up on the octane?

wobbly

19th July 2012, 08:17

The issue that your test doesn't address is that with pump gas you may be able to get away with 13:1 com.
With AvGas its just starting to work properly at 15:1 and this attribute will always far outweigh any advantage flame speed or whatever may be contributing from the pump gas scenario.

The other issue is that unleaded fuel works best with plenty of advance, no com, and rich as hell.
AvGas loves com, loves running lean and hates advance, so you need to spend days on the dyno just optimising for the fuel.
Much better things to be doing in making a fast reliable race engine I believe.

F5 Dave

19th July 2012, 09:39

TZ it may be as simple as calorific value of the two fuels. Either way until you are running in a race engine you don't learn much from testing fuels on a std engine.

Strangely back in the day my RG50 was running silly com ratios (I actually made an inadvertent mistake oil stoning my head every time it warped (as over skimmed RG heads like to). Turns out I was running 19:1 instead of the 17:1 I thought.

So back in the day the Eco fags finally got the guvermint to screw with our gas. Buckets had to run pump gas & the bike loved leaded pump gas. I tried the ULP that first came through & it would hardly pull (with that comm ratio). We then banded together to run Av Gas & the rules were changed, but on the same dyno session as above I tried Av & lost a hp with any mj or ign setting.

I tried 4 different head designs with altered comm & squish sizes/angles & never got it back. That was one engine & I'm not saying all engines.

richban

19th July 2012, 12:21

I think there might be something different about the burn rates, we will explore 96 or even 91 with tuning and compression adjustments in one of our engines some time soon.

I remember Kev telling me 98 has higher BTUs than Av but Detonation was the issue especially with compression. 98 Burns hot

TZ350

19th July 2012, 12:45

F5 Dave

19th July 2012, 15:09

Hey I always believe in test, but often I get stuck in the rut of 'I tested it once' & not testing again.

Just think your test was on the wrong bike.

husaberg

19th July 2012, 17:23

Thanks … some interesting ideas there.

Team ESE has stuck with AvGas mostly because we believed it would be more consistent than pump fuel which seems to change with the seasons.

And being the experimenters we are thought it appropriate to check out sometime what might be the best sort of fuel for making power in a 2-stroke. Fast burn less advance and negative pressure before TDC, that sort of thing.

Robinsons book offers a nice little piece on optimising fuel, ignition and comp to suit different fuels using a variety of fuels, but i guess you already knew that ;)
http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=8CT89yyPIgcC&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&dq=john+robinson+two+stroke+tuning+optimising+fuel s&source=bl&ots=xdh76foOoS&sig=Bj77-px7sFJyfNTn_fn2EIOiG9c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8pkHUKeEK4mUiQeKisWgBA&ved=0CFEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=john%20robinson%20two%20stroke%20tuning%20optimi sing%20fuels&f=false

Gigglebutton

19th July 2012, 17:36

husaberg

19th July 2012, 17:55

On a side note of fuels.
Can any one tell me where i can buy Acetone in Auckland and what % i should use in T2 mix?
Im using the Elf 909 that Wobbly had seperate on him and dont want my RG50 to sieze now its going again

The ..... rules allowed up to 5% Acetone (or was it 4%) to help the miscibility of some oils er... deleted rest......
If i was looking for it i would ask the Mobil fuels disributor they used to stock it other wise it is commonly sold as a nail polish remover so maybe try the chemist. They are a potential source of a lot of interesting fuels as are dry cleaners:cool:
Failing that i seem to remember acetone was used as a solvent for some therapeutic Hemp products. so ask the local police.:dodge:

Oh yeah used a lot in the fiberglass industry as well.

Trademe has some not that cheap thoughhttp://www.trademe.co.nz/health-beauty/hand-foot-care/nails-tips/auction-494580829.htm
http://www.trademe.co.nz/health-beauty/hand-foot-care/nail-care/other/auction-493825637.htm

Farmaken

19th July 2012, 18:21

Acetone is available at bunnings ( in the paint dept. )- good for cleaning up after fibreglassing :niceone:

Yow Ling

19th July 2012, 18:27

http://www.tmkpackers.co.nz/index.php/site/product/acetone

Husa IPA (Isopropyl alcohol) is used to make Hash

husaberg

19th July 2012, 18:42

http://www.tmkpackers.co.nz/index.php/site/product/acetone

Husa IPA (Isopropyl alcohol) is used to make Hash

Not by everyone it's not. Have a google use the words Acetone and Hash;)

Yow Ling

19th July 2012, 18:54

Not by everyone it's not. Have a google use the words Acetone and Hash;)
MMM seems there is more than 3 ways to skin that cat, we only ever had IPA at work so thats how it was done when I was a lad

husaberg

19th July 2012, 19:11

MMM seems there is more than 3 ways to skin that cat, we only ever had IPA at work so thats how it was done when I was a lad

I wonder if steam distillation is now the preferred method for organic pursuits.
I guess the MNZ did include ganja in the rule book but i guess they are not if favor.

Henk

19th July 2012, 19:17

I wonder if steam distillation is now the preferred method for organic pursuits.
I guess the MNZ did include ganja in the rule book but i guess they are not if favor.

You'll know if it takes off by the number of guys suck starting their bikes in the pits.

Gigglebutton

19th July 2012, 19:30

MMM seems there is more than 3 ways to skin that cat, we only ever had IPA at work so thats how it was done when I was a lad

IPA was in our recipe book :mellow:

husaberg

19th July 2012, 20:21

Ok before i am burnt at the stake for posting a pic of a Diesel and i guess (seeing as there aren't hoards of them) an unsuccessful one at that.
But there is a passage in there that got me thinking,(3rd attachment and pic)
Obviously it would/could only be useful on a high speed, probably big bore engine.
So is there some potential there with a similar design say with a flat topped piston that you could use less advance?
Also with a split combustion chamber the flame path would be shorter as the mixture closer to the spark plug.?

diesel pig

19th July 2012, 22:18

PWM control of the powerjet is a very sexy use of technology,slowly ramping off the fuel flow against rpm, but in reality using a simple rpm controlled switched solenoid work perfectly fine.
Yamaha and Honda have used the switched powerjet since forever, its reliable and does the job.
Only issue you need to address is the jet size and switch point ( along with TPS value ).
Running Avgas as we are still allowed to do, means that the tuning is based around getting high egt numbers to create good power, with lots of com and advance - unleaded is the opposite..
Thus experience has shown that as leaded fuel works best with a lean condition at peak power, we only need to switch a small jet just past peak - to increase the pipe temp and
thus give better overev.
In the Keihin numbering this is in mm dia and switching off a .35 is perfect.
When running unleaded, as the GP bikes have for years, the fuel likes to be rich at peak to create the best power, thus we need to switch off alot of fuel flow to increase the pipe heat quickly enough.
In this case a .65 is needed to do the job.
On the dyno or on the track it is easy to tell if the switch point is a little too low, as it feels exactly like the bike has changed into another gear past 6th.
It jumps forward when the solenoid kicks in - making the fuel curve lean, too early.Do this enough - and bang.
Its critical to 100rpm, and is working perfectly when you dont feel it happen - the power just keeps going.
To do it on the dyno you have to run the bike in 6th to simulate the acceleration rate as seen in that gear on the track, and is easy to do running back to back run ups.
Changing the rpm number 100 at a time, lower in the Ignitech, reprogram on the fly and run again.
If the rpm is too high - nothing happens, as there isnt time for the heat to affect the pipe wave speed.

I was wondering about setting up the powderjet jetting. I have the Kehin solenoid powderjet modded the way you showed on this thread and the .35 jet recommented but because of other issues with my bucket I blocked it off with a soldered up jet and tuned it up as a nomal carb. Now say I used a 1.60 main jet on the nomal carb then I add the powderjet is it 1.60 main jet minus .35 powderjet = 1.25 main jet is that right?

speedpro

19th July 2012, 22:33

On a side note of fuels.
Can any one tell me where i can buy Acetone in Auckland and what % i should use in T2 mix?
Im using the Elf 909 that Wobbly had seperate on him and dont want my RG50 to sieze now its going again

MITRE10 sell acetone in 5L tins in the paint department. I was as surprised as hell when I saw it. 909 does settle out. I always drain the tank between meetings and just give it a good shake before tipping it back in the bike.

wobbly

20th July 2012, 09:08

Yep Mitre 10 is the simple answer to easy access to Acetone.
About a cup full in 5L does the job in AvGas.

Re the powerjet sizing the answer is NO NO NO.
Cant be bothered now but work out the AREA of a 160 main and subtract the AREA of a 0.35 powerjet.

wax

20th July 2012, 09:55

Why not just run toulene

F5 Dave

20th July 2012, 11:37

The rules used to say you could run up to 3% (?) Acetone for blending purposes. No other additives (at some stage it was written in some regs so that 2 strok oil would be illegal to premix:wacko:). Not sure if they still state that but I'm sure one could research the MNZ rules online.

husaberg

21st July 2012, 14:39

I will maybe add something later, i recognise a few names here and there. But gee the bikes are a bit basic:niceone:
Steve Rae, who the hell let him in B grade, the burglar.:devil2:

TZ the Belzona product you used on the piston, What was it?
I have found an epoxy that is good to 2000F or 1100ish C
Meant to be fuel resistant as well?

wobbly

21st July 2012, 19:09

Area 1.6 main = 2.010, less area 0.35 = 0.0962.
Main jet should now be 1.56,closest is 1.55 with the powerjet .
Try this without switching first to check equivalent egt to original setup.

Yow Ling

21st July 2012, 20:08

TZ the Belzona product you used on the piston, What was it?
I have found an epoxy that is good to 2000F or 1100ish C
Meant to be fuel resistant as well?

What would you use that for? the piston will melt at 660°C

husaberg

21st July 2012, 20:36

What would you use that for?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Arbeitsweise_Zweitakt.gif

Stuff.....

Have a look at the products yourself something, well for almost everyone.

http://www.aremco.com/products/

the one that caught my eye initially was this.http://www.aremco.com/product/a15/ but used in other applications.....

husaberg

22nd July 2012, 22:02

120 or so pages back Frits and I (Big Pics are Frits's) posted some pics of the V4 Yam 2 stroke 125 gp bike. (RA31 and RA31A)

Thanks Frits it contrasts nicely with the Yamaha approach of the times.
Note of course this is the 125cc. Rather than the 250

Yamaha’s first 4-cylinder racing bike: Yamaha RA31 & RA31A (1966-1968)

…water-cooled two-stroke V4 125cc.
With rotary valves, magnesium engine case and Mikuni 22mm carbs, 9-speed gearbox, dry clutch,
201 lbs, 44HP @ 17,300 rpm, 140 mph top speed.

Yes that does say 17300rpm.

258586
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=258589&d=1330253931http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=258590&d=1330253950

here is it's big brother It is well worth a read, even if i do say so myself.

3rd fastest bike in the speedtrap at 1967 the IOM. carrying 15kg of Lead ballast (The two faster bikes were Ago on a 500cc MV and Hailwood on the 500cc Honda "Camel" not bad for a 250 aye.
plus the speed compared to Spencer's 250.)

F5 Dave

22nd July 2012, 22:04

I will maybe add something later, i recognise a few names here and there. . .
Actually I remember that race quite well & rates as one of my fav. Wonder what happened to my old mate Jason? Clearly not the same wanka who posts here.:second:.

He'll probably moan on something about loaning me a crank case seal for a rebuild the night before. - Well I'm still using it, I'll give it back when I'm done with it.

F5 Dave

22nd July 2012, 22:16

Bump please Wob?

Great description, but I'm a little confused. So on the dyno you saw 1240deg at peak power. I would have thought at that time you would err on the lower side of the temp.

But are you saying that that calibrates the guage & you try get close to that & then keep goin up until it stops rising linear for that final bit?

At this stage presumably if you have a det guage or counter you could get away from needing a CHT perhaps?

TZ350

22nd July 2012, 23:40

Hi Husaberg, I was down CHCH way late last week and picked up the honda frame, many thanks for that.

TZ the Belzona product you used on the piston, What was it?
I have found an epoxy that is good to 2000F or 1100ish C
Meant to be fuel resistant as well?

Belzona is the brand name. I used Devcon F on the piston I am running now. And the F was still there after one short dyno session. I will have another look after the next race meeting.

The skirt area cant be geting to hot, otherwise it would burn the oil film away.

The first piston that I glued, I used Belzona, this one is glued with Devcon F.

262693 262692

A bit of prep and a thin layer of glue worked into the holes to seal them. I think a thin layer is less likely to pull lose than a thicker one.

ief

23rd July 2012, 01:01

Still looks interesting tho. could have a play in the exhaust duct... wonder how it will cope.

TZ350

23rd July 2012, 07:33

Still looks interesting tho. could have a play in the exhaust duct... wonder how it will cope.

Devcon F, by all accounts not long, but maybe long enough to get a good pull on the dyno to see if the changes you are thinking about might work.

dinamik2t

23rd July 2012, 08:15

I once saw an RS cylinder with epoxy in the EX duct, covering the powervalve holes. I don't know how long it was run, but the epoxy seemed to have stayed in place, though its surface was quite burnt.
I think it was devcon F - it was grey and plastic-like.

wobbly

23rd July 2012, 09:04

In answer to your question Dave.
Matters not how the best temp was derived,on track or on the dyno.
With the gauge running and say a 180 main,then going down to 178,if I only see a small increase in temp ( 20*F) then that instantly means
that more heat energy is being used somewhere - not in heating the Ex gas to make power.
If the original temp was 1240, then that will be the ref temp for any air conditions on any day.
With the example I gave we had a 3 jet spread during the day, a very cool dense morning,and a very hot dry afternoon.
In both cases the egt settled at around the same mark.One jet leaner and we would be in the danger zone - one richer and we wouldnt be the fastest by a mile as we were.

F5 Dave

23rd July 2012, 09:46

Oh! so you're angling for the highest temp full stop (until the gain falls off as example). I had a clear misunderstanding, I'd assumed you'd find the best temp on the dyno & try get it near there but not any hotter, but I suppose that could depend on the air of the day.

Thanks, Its slowly getting through. Guess I need to use one properly to observe.

I must remount mine, I had a go on the 50 but I found the power dropped off first time I ran it so I blanked it off & the power came back. This was a few nights before a GP so it got shelved & forgotten about. With the thin header even though it was like 6" from the piston it must have over heated the returning charge. I had it so was in middle of flow, but I'll back it out so just the thin part is in the pipe. The temp shown just got hotter & hotter with every gear. power down 25%. Blanked it off & power came back. Time ran out.

jasonu

23rd July 2012, 10:12

Actually I remember that race quite well & rates as one of my fav. Wonder what happened to my old mate Jason? Clearly not the same wanka who posts here.:second:.

He'll probably moan on something about loaning me a crank case seal for a rebuild the night before. - Well I'm still using it, I'll give it back when I'm done with it.

:Oi:GET STUFFED!!!!!:motu:

F5 Dave

23rd July 2012, 10:20

Look I just hooked a used one out of an old MB engine last night, you can have that when you're over & we'll call it square huh?;)

wobbly

23rd July 2012, 11:40

Each engine is different but if a setup has the optimum com and the timing in the ballpark of 15* at peak power,then Avgas or leaded racegas around the equivelant RON
will always be maxed out at around 1250* - @ 150mm min from the port.
Unleaded likes to be alot richer and makes more power with more advance so that setup makes best power at around 1050.
Not enough com or advance, and the peak safe egt will rise, but power wont,it will just rev on more due to the higher wave speed.
But you have still got it wrong about the air on the day.
You can jet to get the optimum egt,no matter what the RAD says,and it will be in the same state of tune - just using all the oxygen in the air available and mixing it with the correct amount of fuel.
On a hot day,or low Baro, it will hit 1250 but simply make less power, due to less oxy and thus less fuel = less BTUs burned.

The 400 F3 we thrashed on the dyno and at 12,000 held by the dyno for around 30 secs it settled at 12000* F - 96 Hp with no fade.
Thus this is a good safe baseline for the new owner who may not have the tuning smarts to determine what is good or not - but if he has to change jets 3 times during a day
to see 1200 then he will be well on the way to learning what to do.

F5 Dave

23rd July 2012, 12:48

Roger that.

husaberg

23rd July 2012, 17:27

Devcon F, by all accounts not long, but maybe long enough to get a good pull on the dyno to see if the changes you are thinking about might work.

I once saw an RS cylinder with epoxy in the EX duct, covering the powervalve holes. I don't know how long it was run, but the epoxy seemed to have stayed in place, though its surface was quite burnt.
I think it was devcon F - it was grey and plastic-like.

Nudge..........

Still looks interesting tho. could have a play in the exhaust duct... wonder how it will cope.

Stuff.....

Have a look at the products yourself something, well for almost everyone.

http://www.aremco.com/products/

the one that caught my eye initially was this.http://www.aremco.com/product/a15/ but used in other applications.....
there is a sealer for leaky crankcases as well and a high temp high pressure ceramic filler.

Attachments below
undoubtedly credits Kaaden with a little too Much (group/Team effort and all) but interesting read.....
You better read or .....
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u34/powpowbearpow/kitten_gun.jpg

Yow Ling

23rd July 2012, 20:33

Pipes done for now

266791266792

ief

23rd July 2012, 22:38

Pipes again, love pipes :)

And while on the subject,

I'm trying to work something out to be able to visualize them a bit, (original idea by randy norian btw but perfected, I hope anyway)
I know it's crude and there are a lot of things to asume as to what happens in the engine itself but still...

Am I a bit on the right track here and is there a obvious relation between the graph and the engmod sim? I's about the 8k dip mostly.

Back to the drawing board or am I getting somewhere with this?

Header Vs 920 mtr/sec
main negative wave 620 mtr/sec
rest average of 520 (witch makes the Lt correct with the sim I think)

ps: this is with powervalve incluided.

F5 Dave

24th July 2012, 10:29

Thinking about Radiators: I was fondling a mates 98 TZ250 in the weekend (its in his lounge) & noticed the rad is a dual core, so like two 16mm cores stacked together & made as one. Not sure if there is a reason for it or if 16mm came prebent to right size. Not std TZ, So I wonder if this is for ease or production or a perceived benefit to cooling over a 34mm core?

wobbly

24th July 2012, 11:31

The problem with trying to make any sense of what is happening in the sim, or reality for that matter, with an RZ is that
the Powervalve curve is out to lunch - its fully up way too late and this is what is probably causing the dip.
I havnt done a full stock RZ file for EngMod to look at what is going on.
Send me the pack file in a PM and i will check it out.
Time and again many clever fabricators/designers have built pipes that simply dont work as they should.
Until now we have been stymied,but with the programmable Ignitech having a servo function we can tailor the curve correctly.

I have had rads made with twin core (2 times 20mm ) as the next std size would be 50mm
The thick core is all but impossible to bend without crinkling the tubes I understand.
Plus if you need a step in the side profile to get wheel clearance this is easily done with one short core.

F5 Dave

24th July 2012, 12:37

Light bulb. That in itself may help if I need to get one made for my 496 as it gets real close there.

But now sorry I have to ask about the thermostat arrangement. It appears as a bypass path. But that would require a valve with considerably less restriction than a rad?

Also I see the over sized pump cover & conclude you've fitted a Ultra high flow impeller. I saw a comment from the manufacturer that said they weren't 100% they made an improvement, some customers reported one & some not. Guess that would depend on how quick you could cool the rad.

wobbly

24th July 2012, 13:13

The 20mm impeller flows way more than the 13mm stocker, but you have to be able to flow alot more all the way thru he system.
The bypass has a 42* thermo valve that progressively closes off the return to the suction side.
It cycles around this point with alot of hysteresis,and the engine will run all day at around 52*,with the hottest or coldest air temp and
no rad tape needed.
In the 485 with just an uprated impeller,it would overheat after around 5 mins of idle, and was very hard to cool on the dyno.
On the road it was fine.
With the Ultra impeller it doesnt overheat at all - end of story.

F5 Dave

24th July 2012, 14:27

Ahh that does sound a better option & no thermo to pass over would help flow. I see an upgrade path if I need to go that way when I get back onto the 496. So many projects.

Ohh, talking of which; as I type this a small envelope with a Knock Gauge has arrived.

TZ350

24th July 2012, 14:45

Help .... computer freezes when programming Ignitecs Sparker DC-CDIP 2 Race programmable ignition unit.

I have tried three different laptops, one serial, two USB and several different Race 2 ignition units but after a while the computer does not recognize the ignition unit and the software displays the red "No Connection" sign.

But you can leave the computer connected to the ignition unit all day and running no problem but oddly, after a while the computer freezes when the engine is running, so whats that about?

Some times disconnecting the cable and reconnecting it works, but this does not last long before the no connection sign comes back. May be, only long enough to re program the ignition unit and sometimes not that long. It's as if the port becomes over loaded.

I have not had this problem with the other models of Ignitec ignition units that I have worked with so I expect it is just a Race 2 software problem.

Does anyone have a solution???? suggestions ......

wobbly

24th July 2012, 16:52

I did not realise that you had the problem with the engine running.
This will simply be RF on the usb port - get a usb series isolator that is specifically designed to stop this problem.
Usb is very prone to noise, serial is much less so.
It will be the specific setup of the Race that you are using it in.
Is the coil drive wire isolated from all the others - is the coil/plug wire away from the ECU, are both the plug and the cao 5K resistance, is the usb cable well away from any other wiring, etc etc.
I had a similar problem with an RS125 motor - the coil wire was right next to the TPS wires for about 200mm and the coil signal was feeding back to the ECU.
I could see the false triggering making the rpm reading on the screen jump to 18,000 rpm - this would trip the rev limiter and make it backfire.
Run the coil wire around the other side of the carb, all by itself, and problem solved - including the laptop freezing up.

I have been having lots of recent problems with differing usb adapters that freeze the computer after several reprogrammes, using just the battery.
It has started to happen since Ignitech made available a new "one for all " windows usb driver.

TZ350

24th July 2012, 17:09

Thanks Wob

266823

This is the layout and the orange and white coil drive wires exit the loom close to the ignition units plug so as to reduce induced EMF in the other wires. The serial plug also exits the loom there but in the other direction.

I didnt realise the cap needed to be 5K, so I will check that.

I have a different bike with the same Race 2 ignition to try on the dyno tonight, so will get to see how that goes or if there are issues there too, which would suggest a driver problem.

F5 Dave

24th July 2012, 17:16

Look at all that room you've got there. Sheesh, you need to get your fingers into an NF4 with an engine never designed for it, to know grief.

ief

24th July 2012, 18:48

The problem with trying to make any sense of what is happening in the sim, or reality for that matter, with an RZ is that
the Powervalve curve is out to lunch - its fully up way too late and this is what is probably causing the dip.
I havnt done a full stock RZ file for EngMod to look at what is going on.
Send me the pack file in a PM and i will check it out.
Time and again many clever fabricators/designers have built pipes that simply dont work as they should.
Until now we have been stymied,but with the programmable Ignitech having a servo function we can tailor the curve correctly.

I wish I could but the sim was run by someone else, I don't have engmod nor the pack file, that opening up the PV earlier could help was something I also thought about but was looking mostly at the returning + wave being to early here as well...

Stock ypvs controllers are modable btw.

I'll just have to save up and get me engmod myself I guess, would make life a lot easier I think although the head pondering is quit fun as well.

wobbly

25th July 2012, 09:13

Im not interested in actually doing it - but tell me more about modding a YPVS servo controller please.

ief

25th July 2012, 09:26

on the back side of the chip there are some connections to ground in groups of 4, open them all up and replace with dip switches and one can change opening and closing and the speed could be set too. Movement (say not 6 mm deep but 7) could be done by adding a resistor to the white black if I'm correct (this changes the total value of the pot in the servo witch does the same thing)

start opening rpm
1 2 3 4.......3600
- 2 3 4........3900
- - 3 4.........4320
- 2 - 4.........4860
1 - - 4.........5100
- - - 4..........5400
1 2 3 -........5640
- 2 3 -.........5880
- - 3 -..........6420
1 2 - -.........6540
1 - 3 -.........6720
- 2 - -..........6840
1 - - -..........7140

A number refers to a bridge and means that the pin is grounded otherwise is open.

opened rpm
1 2 3 4.........6690
- 2 3 4.........6870
1 - 3 4.........7260
- - 3 4.........7380
- 2 - 4.........7740
1 - - 4.........8100
- - - 4.........8400
1 2 3 -.........8680
- 2 3 -.........8880
- - 3 -.........9260
1 2 - -.........9660
1 - 3 -.........9860
- 2 - -........10050
1 - - -........10350

pic is from BDK who figured this out some time ago now, guess it's a public secret now;)

Haven't got a pic of the back side of the print but when u see it you get it.

dinamik2t

25th July 2012, 09:38

A friend of mine does this mod; take a look:
http://www.twostrokeracelab.com/search/label/YPVS%20reprogrammable%20controller

He sells his modification for 34€
http://tsrl.bigcartel.com/product/ypvs-programmable-controller

ief

25th July 2012, 21:15

husaberg

25th July 2012, 21:43

Small world :)

It's a small world, The two stroke world certainly is, and unfortunately getting even smaller. a few kiwi's were dealing with him with regards to the RS parts Buying and selling.I can't remember who it was but i think they liberated a set of Forks?
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=254706&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1325986369

ief

26th July 2012, 07:59

Omg, I did it, engmod on it's way (big deal for me, money I haven't got to spare but f*ck it :))

Next hurdle to get a working rz pack together but that's part of the charme I guess.

Chuffed :banana:

Also proposed something along the lines of a engmod user forum for people to share ideas, models and what not and Neels said he's thinking about it and when there is enough interest it might be implemented witch I think would be real beneficial to the users and perhaps even development of the program itself to... who knows)

Just had to share :baby:

TZ350

26th July 2012, 09:38

TZ350

26th July 2012, 09:39

266882

Thomas is holding the NSR250 frame and swingarm I got from Husaburg, 14kg all up, for those that like to know these things.

F5 Dave

26th July 2012, 11:17

husaberg

26th July 2012, 16:48

Just if anyone gets interested here is a YPVS mod file taken from the TZR forum which seems to be missing now. I just grabbed a few pertinent pages with the instructions & some text. not edited but should give you everything.

Yow (MIKE) should be able to follow that up i have some stuff somewhere but i guess he is better organised than me.

266882

Thomas is holding the NSR250 frame and swingarm I got from Husaburg, 14kg all up, for those that like to know these things.

See how easy this frame would be to shortened and narrowed it's practically begging for a NX4 rejigging.:cool:
You have the technology and the facilities. You have access to a NX4 frame as well too.
Skill saw (with blade reversed) works great on alloy plate but sounds like a mother-in law though.
http://www.fatbaq.com/rs125/1997_alt.jpg

1997 Honda RS125 Specifications
Item Specification
Dimensions Overall length 1,800 mm (70.9 in)
Overall width 570 mm (22.4 in)
Overall height 985 mm (38.8 in)
Wheelbase 1,215 mm (47.8 in)
Ground clearance 110 mm (4.3 in)
Seat height 700 mm (27.6 in)
Half dry weight 71 kg (156 lbs)
Fuel capacity 13.0 liter (3.4 US gal)
Caster angle 23 ° 30'
Trail length 84mm (3.3 in)

NSR MC16
Length: 2035mm
Width: 705mm
Height: 1105mm
Wheelbase 1360mm
Seat Height: 750mm
Ground Clearance: 135mm
Weight: 125Kg
Fuel Tank: 16 litre (primary)1.2 litre (reserve)
Castor: 26° chopper like
Trail: 103mm as above
OH yeah through in a MC22 gullarm as well Doohanrific mmmmm....That Suzuki engine may have to go.............

Yow Ling

26th July 2012, 18:07

Yow (MIKE) should be able to follow that up i have some stuff somewhere but i guess he is better organised than me.

.............

Yea Right, I use the internet to store important stuff, and cant usually find it back

TZ350

26th July 2012, 19:33

Giggles and Kel have been giving me a hand setting the bike up for the weekend.

266899

By leaning the main jet out I could get 31hp (Red Line) but then the mid range became lean and drive suffered. Fitting a larger main jet (Blue Line) I got better low end drive. I experimented with shutting the power jet but that made it worse every where so I expect the problem is in the air correction jet and hope that by drilling out the air correction jet I will get most of the top end back.

266900

I will have to progressively drill the air correction jet out to see.

The theory is, as the air velocity through the carb increases, the fuel/air ratio gets richer. The air correction jet feeds air to the needle jet holder and is supposed to correct this enriching affect. To small an air correction jet and the top end goes rich, to big and the top leans out.

Maybe the air correction jet has to be right before the power jet can do its thing properly.

266926

There is a lot more info on carb tuning on Husa's original post.

Random order though sorry, but if you can read the text i am sure the numbers at the bottom so they will give a clue to the order:rolleyes:

Power jet or air correction jet?? more experiments tonight.

RAW

27th July 2012, 00:25

I was wondering about setting up the powderjet jetting. I have the Kehin solenoid powderjet modded the way you showed on this thread and the .35 jet recommented but because of other issues with my bucket I blocked it off with a soldered up jet and tuned it up as a nomal carb. Now say I used a 1.60 main jet on the nomal carb then I add the powderjet is it 1.60 main jet minus .35 powderjet = 1.25 main jet is that right?

With regards to the power jet modification, by this do you mean altering the size of the jet or is there some other form of modification I hav missed ?

Grumph

27th July 2012, 07:19

266882

Thomas is holding the NSR250 frame and swingarm I got from Husaburg, 14kg all up, for those that like to know these things.

Shit, that's heavy. Out with the holesaws.....

wobbly

27th July 2012, 07:44

The powerjet dump tube on the KX carb is down very low in the venturi,I have been bending this upwards toward the carb centreline.
This is due to the MX bike using the solenoid switching at very low rpm.
In a race situation you dont need vacuum on the jet down low and up higher is where the dump tube is on the SPJ carb from Honda RS125/250.

TZ350

27th July 2012, 15:54

A few new bits for my next project.

266938

For the Beast.

Suzuki GP125 flywheels bored for a bigger B/E RGV250 pin, balance holes plugged, Malory metal slugs for balancing, inside faces skimmed back for more rod clearance and crank case volume.

266937

And for the F5 class, a 43mm piston and de stroked RG50 crank gives 49.8cc.

husaberg

27th July 2012, 16:57

Giggles and Kel have been giving me a hand setting the bike up for the weekend.

266899

By leaning the main jet out I could get 31hp (Red Line) but then the mid range became lean and drive suffered. Fitting a larger main jet (Blue Line) I got better low end drive. I experimented with shutting the power jet but that made it worse every where so I expect the problem is in the air correction jet and hope that by drilling out the air correction jet I will get most of the top end back.

266900

I will have to progressively drill the air correction jet out to see.

The theory is, as the air velocity through the carb increases, the fuel/air ratio gets richer. The air correction jet feeds air to the needle jet holder and is supposed to correct this enriching affect. To small an air correction jet and the top end goes rich, to big and the top leans out.

Maybe the air correction jet has to be right before the power jet can do its thing properly.

266926

There is a lot more info on carb tuning on Husa's original post.

Power jet or air correction jet?? more experiments tonight.

As i am lazy what is your Needle jet and a pic please.

TZ350

27th July 2012, 19:29

As i am lazy what is your Needle jet and a pic please.

266969

OKO Needle Jet .....

bucketracer

27th July 2012, 20:56

As I understand it, Mikunis have different sized needle jets and one base diameter for the needles. On the other hand Keihen style carbs have one size for the needle jet but different base diameters on the needles.

wobbly

27th July 2012, 21:35

ief

27th July 2012, 21:44

What would of been the use of using them bleed types anyway? Lot of stock bikes have them, emission stuff?

husaberg

27th July 2012, 22:00

I think you are going to get lost - running a 4T bleed type emulsion tube and trying to tune that, assuming its a primary correction system is asking for trouble.
My take is that ALL modern 2Ts have primary emulsion correction only, wherein all the correction air bleed is fed into the well around the shroud.
It must be obvious that its well proven that is all that is needed to get a perfect fuel curve.
Having a 4T type air bleed emulsion tube, with a series of holes is just a confusing tangent you simply dont need - and very few understand.
Weber and Dellorto have hundreds of variations, you have one tube - and you have no idea what it is doing, nor where or why , in the powerband.
Your call, but seems you'r asking for brain damage to me.

The Japs are sticklers for corporate integrity - yes Mikuni have variable tube diameters,and only change the needle angles, and taper start point.
Keihin on the other hand have a single tube diameter - usually a machined hole in the casting, and vary the parallel diameter of the needle range, plus the taper start point.
No advantage to either - apart from being not being the same - not allowed,in the Land of the Radioactive Sun.

I am a bit torn myself the oko's seem to be a leap ahead of the old PJ Keihins. as bucket mentioned above most of the Keihin tuning was on the taper only as the needle jet system was an integral part of the carb and not available as a separate part hense the frustration of tuning a worn Keihins where fatter needles with differing taper's were required to compensate for worn carbs.
But Tz seems to have it close and adjusting the air correction jet is quick and easy esp if it is tapped for a jet and would seem from the symptoms Rob describe to be worth a go because it will affect the area of carburation that rob says is out.
Oh fiddling with the Air correction is something practically every one who had a decent running Rotary Mazda had to do to their IDA Webbers.

But yeah emulsion tubes do my head in. I can never understand why with the Disk valve engines on Mikunis have 4 stroke style Primary bleeds with short shrouds. i know that the shroud is for, but why different between Disk and piston port or reed?

PS doesn't the evil empire own Keihin as well as Showa

I must have a look at a Keihin air striker. As they seem to have a different set up with more vents possibly a high speed air correction?

ief

28th July 2012, 05:34

This is getting confusing.

As on the net usually people say; primary = 4 stroke and bleed = 2 stroke.

Wob says other way around? :confused:

wobbly

28th July 2012, 09:05

Where I come from the" bleed " type allows air into the emulsion tube body via a series of holes.
The size and position of the holes bends the fuel curve in very specific areas of the rpm band - a nightmare to get right,but VERY effective in operation.

The so called "primary choke " type has a shroud above a well in the tube,that extends into the air stream.
This shroud creates a situation very similar to having an auxiliary venturi - or choke , as seen on pumpers, and performance units like Webers and V8 carbs.
The height of the shroud, and an air bleed into the external well below it,changes the fuel curve shape externally from the emulsion tube.

Mikuni have used bleed type carbs on various applications ( Yamaha twins ) - but it wasnt long before they changed to the primary type for all 2Ts.
Dellortos as run on Rotax/Aprilia disk valves are all primary type.

The air strikers are just normal Keihins, with an air guide in the bottom of the venturi below the slide.
This is supposed to increase the velocity past the shroud at low throttle openings, giving better response.
Maybe it does - but they loose power everywhere else,due to turbulence I assume.
In a 50 Hp 125 a 38mm air striker looses 2 Hp right thru the powerband to a PWK - same jets,same length etc.

husaberg

28th July 2012, 09:11

This is getting confusing.

As on the net usually people say; primary = 4 stroke and bleed = 2 stroke.

Wob says other way around? :confused:
Most But Not all,Mikuni equipped 2 strokes have a P type Needle jet that have a single air bleed hole

Most but not all Mikuni equipped 4 strokes have a (B type)That have a series of holes.

There are some exceptions with regards to some disk valve bikes and some other road bikes.

According to Bell a least.
The P type (Mainly used on two strokes)the air that comes from the air bleed orifice is mixed with fuel which has already been metered by by the needle and jet.

The B Bleed type (mainly used of four strokes) however is designed to hold air and in the body section of the needle jet so in this case Fuel and Air (a frothy mix) is metered by the needle and jet.

As Wob says above the height of the should can alter the fueling curve a fair bit similar should extensions are used in almost all Dynojet kit for the Diesel's to create a greater depression.
the pic Rob posted a page back shows as a example of a curve of how it can alter the fueling.
(As this is from Robinson i guess Leon Moss came up with the data?)

Looking for a high speed air bleed came accros this I suspected scooters may be good some something maybe once i guess it was stolen of a bike forum or Gorr i guess.
http://www.shiny-red.net/tuning-guides/102-keihin-carburetor-jetting

Of course it always must be remembered carb tuning is all about compromise of overlapping circuits that interact.
not a complete graph but......
Then start throwning in altitude, temp, humidity, rider style, engine spec.....................
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQUpVJ7VdKyRJm11Z-59qfgfdlnFEoyrAavk5O-o00ZAHgxWOSZfpBEeF1g<img src="http://www.ducatitech.com/2v/img/fcr_graphs.gif" width="640px" />

Last attachment is a PDF of the Mikuni tuning guide for the VM carb

cotswold

28th July 2012, 16:51

Sad piston

kel

28th July 2012, 17:50

Sad piston
Very sad. Mate that looks like a lube problem, you werent using that expensive oil that seperates from the fuel were you?

cotswold

28th July 2012, 18:12

Very sad. Mate that looks like a lube problem, you werent using that expensive oil that seperates from the fuel were you?

Motul 800 at 20:1 ....... Castrol R never did that and smelt nice too

TZ350

28th July 2012, 20:15

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_pulse_pressure_charging

Exhaust pulse pressure charging (EPPC) is a system for supercharging (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercharger) two-stroke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-stroke_cycle) of the loop-scavenge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-stroke_cycle#Loop-scavenged) type. The exhaust system is arranged in such a way that excess air/fuel charge follows the exhaust gases into the exhaust manifold. Some of this air/fuel is then forced back into the cylinder by a rise in pressure in the exhaust manifold.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_wave_supercharger

A pressure wave supercharger The process is controlled by a cylindrical cell rotor whose speed is synchronised with the engine crankshaft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crankshaft) speed via a belt or chain. Individual cells alternately open and close the exhaust gas and fresh air apertures, when the aperture on the exhaust gas side is reached pressurised exhaust gas flows into the cell and compresses the fresh air there.

267167

As the cell rotor continues to rotate and reaches the aperture on the inlet side the compressed air flows to the engine. Before the exhaust gas can flow the aperture is closed again and the exhaust gas column is reflected before entering the engine. The exhaust gas exits at high speed sucking further intake air into the cell behind it repeating the process.

Energy exchange in the pressure-wave supercharger occurs at sound velocity, resulting in good response even at low engine speeds, a common downfall of turbocharged engines. It combines the advantages of mechanical and exhaust gas supercharging.

267170

http://www.idsc.ethz.ch/Research_Guzzella/Automotive_Applications/Gasoline_Engines/Pressure_Wave_Systems

A ton of information on wave rotors can be found here:- http://www.egr.msu.edu/mueller/projects_waverotor.htm

So if a 2-stroke is already supercharged by the exhaust system, then would it be ok to extend the inertial pressure wave process to the inlet side?

husaberg

28th July 2012, 20:21

Steady Eddie Lawson the solid reliable performer.
Er i guess even he was led astray by Kenny Roberts.:drool:

Kid in the story Jake Zemke http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_Zemke

Seizure above, A747 or Castrol R will fix that, boring aye:apint:

TZ350

28th July 2012, 21:44

Rich and Bert have talked about them before and Thomas is having a go at building one of these head phone det sensors, all the bits can be brought from JayCar.

Construction details here:- http://autospeed.com/cms/A_1353/article.html http://autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0348 (http://autospeed.com/cms/A_1353/article.html)

speedpro

28th July 2012, 21:54

Motul 800 at 20:1 ....... Castrol R never did that and smelt nice too

You can't possibly be blaming lubrication for that, surely?

When I ran Motul 800 it was at 40:1 and I "never" had a problem.

husaberg

28th July 2012, 22:40

You can't possibly be blaming lubrication for that, surely?

When I ran Motul 800 it was at 40:1 and I "never" had in problem.

"When i ran" Is a series of words that suggests "Previous tense"
What were you running in this pic?

cotswold

28th July 2012, 23:19

Seizure above, A747 or Castrol R will fix that, boring aye:apint:[/QUOTE]

:Oi: Erm I was taking the pro·ver·bi·al stopped using R when I sold the MTR back in 1984

husaberg

28th July 2012, 23:40

Seizure above, A747 or Castrol R will fix that, boring aye:apint:

:Oi: Erm I was taking the pro·ver·bi·al stopped using R when I sold the MTR back in 1984[/QUOTE]

Er siezeures are boring was it to subtle :msn-wink:
btw if you can show me a oil that actually works better "as a lubricant" than a Castor based oil i would be keen to see it.
Maxima 927 has supposedly the same smell.(mmmmm....Sweet) is less dirty and gummy yet still retains the unique castor properties.

cotswold

28th July 2012, 23:52

was it to subtle :msn-wink:

I'm more of a hit with a brick type, subtlety tends to go unnoticed.

Yow Ling

29th July 2012, 08:58

you sure you wernt using that tub of vaselene in the background, its lubrication properties are best known in other sports

Bert

29th July 2012, 09:30

Er siezeures are boring was it to subtle :msn-wink:
btw if you can show me a oil that actually works better "as a lubricant" than a Castor based oil i would be keen to see it.
Maxima 927 has supposedly the same smell.(mmmmm....Sweet) is less dirty and gummy yet still retains the unique castor properties.

I tried this stuff (mainly to re-live the smell of Castor); i was really happy with it:
http://www.klotzlube.com/techsheet.asp?ID=44
and the slightly better version:
http://www.klotzlube.com/techsheet.asp?ID=48

Castrol R30 is still available at most Kart stores.

husaberg

29th July 2012, 10:17

you sure you wernt using that tub of vaselene in the background, its lubrication properties are best known in other sports
.........Fork oil?

I tried this stuff (mainly to re-live the smell of Castor); i was really happy with it:
http://www.klotzlube.com/techsheet.asp?ID=44
and the slightly better version:
http://www.klotzlube.com/techsheet.asp?ID=48

Castrol R30 is still available at most Kart stores.
I actually prefer A747 as it still has a little Castor.and is made for rs125 and similar But i will try the Maxima
There was a thread somewhere here where someone talks about being at the Castrol test centre running ac 125 flat out on a dyno at silly oil ratio's The A747 survived the best.

Yow Ling

29th July 2012, 10:18

btw if you can show me a oil that actually works better "as a lubricant" than a Castor based oil i would be keen to see it.
Maxima 927 has supposedly the same smell.(mmmmm....Sweet) is less dirty and gummy yet still retains the unique castor properties.

tricky wording there "as a lubricant" what does that mean, Castor bean oil forms waxy varnish like deposits in the engine so the engine can run for a short period without lubrication, but those deposits also gum up powervalves, not a big problem in 1982 but a bit of a problem now. if you switch over oils while the engine is running it will likley pick up rpms on idle when going to modern oils this would be an indication of less stickyness or better lubrication

Which GP teams were using castor oil untill moto3 took over?

Ill just keep with old faithfull TTS for now. What you going to run in the Vanessa Honda Superbucket?

husaberg

29th July 2012, 10:37

tricky wording there "as a lubricant" what does that mean, Castor bean oil forms waxy varnish like deposits in the engine so the engine can run for a short period without lubrication, but those deposits also gum up powervalves, not a big problem in 1982 but a bit of a problem now. if you switch over oils while the engine is running it will likley pick up rpms on idle when going to modern oils this would be an indication of less stickyness or better lubrication

Which GP teams were using castor oil untill moto3 took over?

Ill just keep with old faithfull TTS for now. What you going to run in the Vanessa Honda Superbucket?

Yeah it is tricky wording but i was meaning as a lubricant the resistance to seizing.
The vanish is a red herring for the motor should be stripped often for it is a competition bike after-all. Not a road bike

Er which GP team was using the sponsors oil at all. That you will have to ask them.:psst:
Mind you it was odd that they had castor oil around to coat the pipes with?

Castrol A747 for vanesa and then maxima 927. That is assuming it ever gets it finished mind you.

TTS i use in my son's bikes (mx).

Ram Air
Yes practically useless on a bucket but topical on the Pitlane thread.
This follows on from the other stuff i posted a couple of weeks ago regarding air boxes.
If you recall it mentioned an interesting rig Leon Moss built up with a Ford motor and turbo charger.

OK i am not really sure how much actually applies to the two strokes but it is interesting nevertheless.

Kickaha

29th July 2012, 10:40

Castrol A747 for vanesa and the maxima 927.

A747 doesn't seem to have any problem with gumming power valves but isn't full castor, pretty pricey oil to be running though

speedpro

29th July 2012, 16:54

.........There was a thread somewhere here where someone talks about being at the Castrol test centre running ac 125 flat out on a dyno at silly oil ratio's The A747 survived the best.

Which is all good if you want to try running 100:1 or expect to add plain 100 octane to a tank of premix and then try for some hot laps.

What some people overlook is if they decide to run "lots" of oil in the fuel then when that thicker mix tries to get through the main jet a slightly lower volume will get through plus within that volume a smaller % will be petrol.

So they add "heaps" more oil, and immediately seize because it's now lean. Only a problem if the motor is close to the edge anyway. Going from 40:1 where fuel is 97.56% of the mix, to 20:1 where fuel is only 95.24% of the mix, with no other changes results in a slightly more than 2% leaner fuel mixture. That's a miniscule jet size change, but . . . .

The only time I think you need lots and lots of oil is if you are revving the motor heaps and the oil is being blown out. At smaller throttle settings and lower revs you can reduce the amount of oil added to the fuel. When my son got his KX80 I mixed it at 80:1. When checked the motor was plenty oily because he was just puttering around in a paddock.

Sketchy_Racer

29th July 2012, 17:23

When I used to run the air cooled MB100 motor, I found that it ran much better and cooler using a 20:1 mix with motul 800. If I ran 40:1 and jetted to suit it would run great for the first two laps then get to hot, with 20:1 it would make what felt like the same amount of power but wouldn't suffer the heat issues as much. FWIW

speedpro

29th July 2012, 17:40

Extra oil would have helped piston sealing, probably. My old air cooled MB used to fade a bit as well.

TZ350

29th July 2012, 18:06

We use 20:1 for a different reason, it cuts out mixing mistakes.

We buy a 12 box of 1L oil packs and our gas in 20L drums. As soon as we get a new drum of gas in goes 1L of oil, no calculations or messing about.

20L drum of gas 1L pack of oil, job done no mistakes, anyone can do it and get it right.

husaberg

29th July 2012, 18:10

Which is all good if you want to try running 100:1 or expect to add plain 100 octane to a tank of premix and then try for some hot laps.

What some people overlook is if they decide to run "lots" of oil in the fuel then when that thicker mix tries to get through the main jet a slightly lower volume will get through plus within that volume a smaller % will be petrol.

So they add "heaps" more oil, and immediately seize because it's now lean. Only a problem if the motor is close to the edge anyway. Going from 40:1 where fuel is 97.56% of the mix, to 20:1 where fuel is only 95.24% of the mix, with no other changes results in a slightly more than 2% leaner fuel mixture. That's a miniscule jet size change, but . . . .

The only time I think you need lots and lots of oil is if you are revving the motor heaps and the oil is being blown out. At smaller throttle settings and lower revs you can reduce the amount of oil added to the fuel. When my son got his KX80 I mixed it at 80:1. When checked the motor was plenty oily because he was just puttering around in a paddock.

Gee did you read my post's Mike?
i seriously doubt there is anyone on this thread who isn't aware of the viscosity change with oil fuel mixes.
So i am not sure of your point but suffice to say the Castrol oil test centre is aware of it at least.
For Reference the 'silly" oil ratios were up to 300:1 and the life expectancy was minutes. But i guess Castrol was always going to be a little biased towards their own products.
I always in the buckets ran 20:1 A747 has it was getting a thrashing negligible oil build up in pipe bugger all carbon.

Anyone care to actually say what the Gp bike ran and their were ratios they certainly smelled Castor Bean sweet....Wob..Frits.. Jan... Lozza?

TZ350

29th July 2012, 18:15

Yow Ling

29th July 2012, 18:25

Gee did you read my post's Mike?
i seriously doubt there is anyone on this thread who isn't aware of the viscosity change with oil fuel mixes.

its not the viscosity that changes, just the volume of petrol as a percentage of the total volume going through the jet

husaberg

29th July 2012, 18:44

its not the viscosity that changes, just the volume of petrol as a percentage of the total volume going through the jet

Disagree with you Mike my understanding is the increased amount oil makes the mixture leaner, as it allows a smaller volume of petrol to pass through the jet.But could be both?
One simple way to see is to get 1 ltr of fuel mix at 20:1 and run it through a mainjet at the bottom of the container and then compare it to 1 ltr of fuel mix at 100:1 time the results and see.:wait:

A typical example: you go from a 50:1 ratio to a 20:1 ratio. Your engine will now run leaner, and you’ll have to make jetting changes. You’ll need bigger (in number) jets because the oil molecules are thicker and the flow rate (the amount coming through the jet) is less.

Aha! The volume of fuel has changed. The oil takes up some volume that the gas used to occupy, so your engine is getting less gas and needs to be richened up.

http://www.off-road.com/dirtbike/tech/two-stroke-gasoil-ratios-20502.html

bucketracer

30th July 2012, 01:25

Mt Welly today was showers wet and cold with a very slippery track.

After some frustration in the pits with the Beast Kel had to start of the back of the grid but he still managed a 3rd and a 4th in the A grade points races, a good effort by anyones standard. The handling changes worked and the motor held together, so all in all a good start to the new season.

It was a very strong cold wind and wet at Mt Wellington, but it was funny to see TeeZee getting all excited as Kel cut through the field on the Beast.

In the first points race the winner was only just ahead, in the second, working their way through the back makers spread the leaders out a bit, maybe half a lap at most between the eventual winner and Kel at the chequerd flag.

If TeeZee can make the Beast a bit easier to ride then it should be a real weapon.

trevor amos

30th July 2012, 03:59

Hi ,
I well remember a typically pithy comment from Kenny Roberts when being sponsored by PJ1 , suggesting that , it may show PJ1 on the tin but it`s 747 that goes into
YAMs , love their money but hate their shit !

Stay cool , Trevor

Frits Overmars

30th July 2012, 05:54

I well remember a typically pithy comment from Kenny Roberts when being sponsored by PJ1 , suggesting that , it may show PJ1 on the tin but it`s 747 that goes into YAMs , love their money but hate their shit !I've seen the same thing happen with Bell-Ray, Quaker State, Putoline and Eurol. They might deliver the sponsor money and the tins; the oil inside came from Castrol :msn-wink:.

teriks

30th July 2012, 09:45

Disagree with you Mike my understanding is the increased amount oil makes the mixture leaner, as it allows a smaller volume of petrol to pass through the jet.But could be both?
One simple way to see is to get 1 ltr of fuel mix at 20:1 and run it through a mainjet at the bottom of the container and then compare it to 1 ltr of fuel mix at 100:1 time the results and see.:wait:
In addition to that, do the same test, but instead of changing the ratio, change the fuel temperature.
-With the 80% methanol / 20% castor I am regulated to use, fuel temperature have a very large impact on viscosity (and AFR).
I guess much less so with lower oil content, but anyway.

kel

30th July 2012, 10:33

it was funny to see TeeZee getting all excited as Kel cut through the field on the Beast.
The wife mentioned he was getting excited, glad it was entertaining.
We had a bit of a shocking start to race day with the bike and I having a number of disagreements, stalling on the line was all me though :facepalm:. Thankfully my prediction that we'd got all the bad luck out of the way was correct and things went better for the points races. TZ had installed a TPS, altered the ignition curve to 3D map, installed the deto regulator and set a soft and hard rev limiter, all of which seemed to be working well as there were no mechanical issues and the bike was still clearly the quickest thing on track. Theres still an issue with a delay coming back onto the throttle but Im sure we can sort this out. Chassis wise we installed a new shock Friday night which worked out really well, even with my that looks about right approach to setting preload and dampening the handling improved immensely.
First race went well with a good start and managing to get through traffic reasonably quickly, as is often the case luck played a part in finishing 3rd but with that said second was a real chance with just a .9 sec gap separating us.
Second race and the start was a shocker (thought I'd got to terms with getting off the line but more practice required), by the time I got through to 5th the front 3 were long gone so just settled in behind the 4th place rider and played it safe, passing with 2 laps to go to finish 4th. The bike and I probably could have gone as much as 2 seconds a lap quicker but there seemed little point.
I was hoping to have my new bike ready for the next round but TZ's GP125 is getting so good I might try for a ride next round as well. :clap:

2T Institute

30th July 2012, 12:36

I've seen the same thing happen with Bell-Ray, Quaker State, Putoline and Eurol. They might deliver the sponsor money and the tins; the oil inside came from Castrol :msn-wink:.

Even more famous one was when Merv White the Suzuki GP manager had a half dozen or so Texaco executives in Barry Sheene's pit box. Merv proudly announced 'See the same oil you put on the shelf is what we use' to which Franco Sheene replied(without looking up) "Christ NO we tip that shit out and put Castrol in the old bottle ,as soon as we get it "

SS90

30th July 2012, 13:22

The wife mentioned he was getting excited, glad it was entertaining. TZ had installed a TPS, altered the ignition curve to 3D map, installed the deto regulator and set a soft and hard rev limiter, all of which seemed to be working well :clap:

Wow, this all seems like alot of expense and effort, shame that you didn't manage to catch the win (I know how you feel) what bikes took the top 3? If they where dirty old 4 strokes, with-out all these gubbons one would have to wonder if someone is heading in the right direction... As you can produce an immense amount of torque from a two stroke, with-out any of the crap that thing has bolted on to it.