ESE's works engine tuner

[TZ350]

Is the injector just squirting fuel onto the outside of the sleeve and running down into the CCase, in a diesel the fuel can wait on the back of the valve in a cloud before being sucked in.

Tim gave me a hand tonight, we started to make progress when we moved the injection end point. I think we originaly had the injector squirting into closed ports.

289734

A lot more to do yet, but making progress.

[Mental Trousers]

Fritz sent these through a couple of weeks ago but it's taken some time to get them up.

http://kiwibiker.co.nz/images/DKW-Jawa-KTM-Ossa-Rumi-Fath-Stredor-Seel-Hessels-carbs-CRP.zip
http://kiwibiker.co.nz/images/Honda-Suzuki-Yamahai.zip
http://kiwibiker.co.nz/images/Jamathi-Piovaticci-Bultaco-Garelli-Kreidler.zip

[husaberg]

Thanks Mental:clap::third::niceone:And Frits

[Flettner]

Yes between 42 and 45 psi, depending on the chamber pressure. Timing is critical.
Injecting into the inlet port is no good on a twostroke, that is where everyone else EFIing twostrokes goes wrong! It Doesn't work.
I had no problems up to 9000 RPM ( getting injectors energised and get fuel moving, on ethanol too )

[bucketracer]

A lot more to do yet, but making progress.

Hi TeeZee, I am following this with interest.

289756289759289760

Great to see this coming together.

289757

The first EFI graph at 22 hp starts of better than tonight's one but great to see the extra range, very promising.

289758

So no doubt some fueling adjustments will improve tonights curve.

28+ hp, this is starting to get exciting.

[bucketracer]

The EFI and a bit of a review of the other innovations.

289765

Copper Head.

289769 289770

Pressure Bleed

289764

Boost Bottle and Ball Valve Inlet.

289768

Exhaust port floor dam.

289766

An older but good carburetor curve, the challange will be to see if the EFI setup and the other inovations can better it.

Exciting times at Team ESE.

[senso]

10ms at 8000 rpm is too slow, not that I ever messed with EFI(for now, will try that in the future), but 8000 rpm is 133Hz, 10ms is 100Hz, so, you are not injecting every rev, don't know how that ECU works, but that might explain the strange behavior.

About the fins, old sachs engines have huge finned heads and cylinders, with radial fins coming from the center of the head, and the crankcases also have fins in the bottom going all the way through the cases, and to some extent, zundapp and casal engines have fins in the crankcases.
Hope I'm not saying stupid things :rolleyes:

[TZ350]

... the crankcases also have fins in the bottom going all the way through the cases ...

Do the fins stick up into the gearbox oil on the inside? if they did this would greatly improve heat transfer and is something I am thinking of doing. It would be great to know if its been done before.

[Drew]

Woohoo, I wasn't expecting the peak power to get so close to the best carbed output so soon!

Must be great knowing you can smooth the curve out in certain areas, and not change anything that's happening at the top.

I was musing this morning, if I made a belt driven disk valve on the GT could it just have two holes in it at 180° to run a single carb/throttle body?

[senso]

No, the inside of the cases is smooth, I don't have a photo here, but I can get some photos of zundapp and sachs engines in the weekend, if you want.

[Drew]

Do the fins stick up into the gearbox oil on the inside? if they did this would greatly improve heat transfer and is something I am thinking of doing. It would be great to know if its been done before.Would Mr Yoshimura's trick, of just putting dimples all over the surface have a similar effect? Can't see why it wouldn't work on the inside of the cases like, and every motor used to get hours of Mrs Yoshimuras attention with a drill.

[Grumph]

Do the fins stick up into the gearbox oil on the inside? if they did this would greatly improve heat transfer and is something I am thinking of doing. It would be great to know if its been done before.

It's been done before, yes, but AFAIK only on car sumps. After all, they have the depth to fit finning in.

Most extreme case i know of is Bugatti - he ran small dia tubes through the sump front to rear which were open to outside air. That would certainly increase the surface area available for heat transfer.

If you're going to try dry sump or pump cooling the box, I'd arrange the line in from the cooler or tank as a spray onto the rear wall of the crank chamber.

[wobbly]

Just finished dyno runs on the TZ400, could not have wished for a better result.
Ran it as modelled in EngMod and amazed how close the ignition was.
Just love the flat torque curve, will be an easy bike to ride pulling out of slow corners way better than any piston port could hope to do.
Hit 80RW Hp on the 1st run on a DynoJet 168 with variable load simulating increasing aero with speed = 255KM/Hr max
Added alot more mid advance and ramped out the top end, to get good of corner response and some more overev power bandwidth..
Quickly got to the stage of having to use fuel to keep the temps under 1260*F at 11500rpm +
So the final all gear runs were quite rich but fully safe and repeatable at 82.8Hp.
This is dead on 12% losses at the rear wheel from the sim prediction,as I expected, and makes the model spot on for power and peak rpm.
If I now rerun the sim with the dyno ignition it will be so close everywhere ,as to be scary good.
One thing I discovered is that the 40mm Lectrons ( legal for Pre 82 Post Classic ) are super sensitive to float level.
1mm height change = dead on 50*F which is what you would see normally with a single main jet change.
So it was a juggle of float height, needle position and powerjet size to get an accurate fuel curve with good part throttle roll on as well as temp control up top.
Best solution I am now convinced is to run inline solenoids on the powerjets, switch them on to extend the overev ( instead of ramping out alot of timing ) then turn them off
to keep the temps consistent well into overev if needed.
The speed shift works a treat with minimal power drop time between each change.
My son will edit the vids tonight and upload to YouTube, will post the link asap.

[Flettner]

<a href="http://s1056.photobucket.com/user/uniflow/media/IMG_4456_zps2d1ffdec.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4456_zps2d1ffdec.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_4456_zps2d1ffdec.jpg"/></a>
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4457_zpsb2266803.jpg

Cylinder mould building is slow, due to lack of time available. I had to change the main core mould to allow for these dimples to be made in the cylinder core. These are needed to fit ( glue ) the transfer cores to. Transfer cores not made yet. Evantually we want a hard sand core that looks like this.


http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4458_zps76c5e236.jpg

[kel]

Best solution I am now convinced is to run inline solenoids on the powerjets, switch them on to extend the overev ( instead of ramping out alot of timing ) then turn them off
to keep the temps consistent well into overev if needed.


Wobbly you mentioned previously -
"switching the powerjet puts less heat into the piston, more into the pipe, to create overev power. Its inherently "safe" as the bmep is low and the heat isnt going to sieze anything when you are over the top of the torque curve".
Does this hold true for air cooled motors?

I have just setup my bucket with an inline powerjet solenoid. Its a normally closed air solenoid that vents the powerjet line to atmosphere thereby cutting the vacuum induced fuel feed through the powerjet.
With my combination of 198deg exhaust timing and the late model RS125 pipe there might be a few more revs to exploit by turning off the powerjet. Main concern is the effect on temp on the poor old thermally challenged air cooled motor. While theres no noticeable power fade on the dyno or track the motor does seem to get very hot.
Bike is running Avgas and a number 30 Keihin powerjet, power output drops dead at 12000rpm.

[Yow Ling]

Bike is running Avgas and a number 30 Keihin powerjet, power output drops dead at 12000rpm.

I thought you said avgas was the devils fuel.

[kel]

I thought you said avgas was the devils fuel.
Yep the sooner its banned the better :Police:

[wobbly]

The heat generated by going leaner over the top of the pipe will mostly be transmitted into the pipe.
Thus maybe the Ex duct in the cylinder will get hotter, but I dont see that being a limiting issue.
What is the ignition curve, as this may be limiting the overev power past 12,000

[RAW]

The heat generated by going leaner over the top of the pipe will mostly be transmitted into the pipe.
Thus maybe the Ex duct in the cylinder will get hotter, but I dont see that being a limiting issue.
What is the ignition curve, as this may be limiting the overev power past 12,000

Wobbly, this increased heat within the exhaust, would it lead to increased heat upon the piston skirt and if to great result in the burning away of the skirt about and below the ring groove / no burning away of the piston above the ring

Power jet issue and or timing issue ?

[TZ350]

Hi TeeZee, I am following this with interest.

289756289759289760

Great to see this coming together.

289757

The first EFI graph at 22 hp starts of better than tonight's one but great to see the extra range, very promising.

289758

So no doubt some fueling adjustments will improve tonights curve.

28+ hp, this is starting to get exciting.

Bucket here is a graph of the two EFI dyno sessions compared to a good carburetor run on the same cylinder and setup.

289788

Green line is how it runs with a carb, the Red line is my first EFI dyno run, it turns out that it was set up to run very rich so as to get some fuel through the transfer ports on time and the Blue line is after adjusting the injection end point.

Its great having a carburetor graph of the same cylinder for a comparison, but it looks like a lot of work to do yet to get the EFI system to better the carburetor results.

I expect that with more work on the fuel injection map and injection end point plus injector cross over point I will be able to get EFI curves like the carburettor one.

289789

I am trying to get the injected fuel to squirt up inside the piston crown for cooling of the piston top from the underside and better fuel vaporization.

I am hoping the EFI system will give me more under piston cooling and by being able to control the fueling more accurately some reduction in detonation during over rev (13,000 + rpm).

With the carburetor set up, over rev and part throttle deto is a real problem.

289786

The small capacity injector is on the right and discharges over the rotary valve inlet side, bigger injector is in the middle and the injector on the left is disconnected at the moment.

I will try adjusting the switch over point as I want the small injector for starting and low end running and then to swap over to the big injector in the middle for power running and cooling the piston.

You can see the bike running badly on the dyno here:- http://youtu.be/6yl4NvAK5YM

The oscillations were cured by adjusting the injection end time.

In just a few ms the crank has rotated many degrees. ie, the minimum time for pico iwp injectors is 2ms and 2ms at 12,000 rpm = 144 degrees and the transfers are only open for 132.

So its quite a juggling act to get the biggest injector for the shortest injection time without dropping below the 2ms lower limit or being to small and needing to long and taking up to many degrees of crank rotation to inject enough fuel.

289787

Ecotrons has an "injection point end" Map that allows you to tailor the injection end point to suit throttle position and rpm.

[Kickaha]

Most extreme case i know of is Bugatti - he ran small dia tubes through the sump front to rear which were open to outside air. That would certainly increase the surface area available for heat transfer..
There used to be BMW deep sumps available for the Boxer twins with the same setup

[Flettner]

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4460_zpsd7bd2e5e.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4461_zpsf93bf3f8.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4459_zpsc495cc02.jpg

The begining of the water core ( master ), this will be the same mould for top and bottom half, sand cores glued together in the mould.
Core prints need to be added to hold the core in place as the metal is pored. These will end up being the water inlet ports.
These are what " frost plugs" are on a car engine, not actually for frost, they are there to hold the water jacket sand core in place as the metal is poored around it. Also allows gas to escape as the air in the core expands as the hot metal is surrounding the sand core.
Orange things are air gun pellets, gives me a standard thickness on curved surfaces.

[wax]

Thats so cool the casting and molds you are making. If you drew it could you not make the molds on a cnc router ??

[Frits Overmars]

Do the fins stick up into the gearbox oil on the inside? if they did this would greatly improve heat transfer.Heat transfer from oil to metal is at least a hundredfold better than heat transfer from metal to air, so internal fins would not give much improvement. They would also make modelling and casting more complicated, so I don't expect you to find them on any production bike.

[Flettner]

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4258_zpse03da743.jpg

EFI YZ250 at the Acerbis 4 hour two weeks ago. Wayne Blackwood at the controls.

[husaberg]

Neil i googled armourboard and only came up with it in weatherboard form where do you get yours?
moved on to bb's from the beads...... more masculine :msn-wink:
looks bloody sweet btw.
Oh Frits what did you think of the YCAT transmission, Honda does one very similar for the new Dream/Wave
Honda CV-matic i can't read japanese but it looks like a wet clutch drive to me.(pics in english :))

[RomeuPT]

Frits , Wob, if you can answer, I have a doubt.

The Aprilia RSA 125 102 pipe is a Ti pipe!? It has about 804mm of total lenght. This lenght is optimised for Ti or MildSteel?

Peaking at 13000rpm with 804mm raised the doubt, would the Aprilia engine gases had a clearly superior temp than the average 125 2t or would the Ti make the difference?

So, a mild steel pipe for Aprilia RSA would be around, 8% less or 739,68 mm total lenght?

289832

Many Thanks

[Flettner]

Thats so cool the casting and molds you are making. If you drew it could you not make the molds on a cnc router ??

No problem, we have a three dimentional CNC milling machine in the workshop I could use, but I'm trying to show how to make a cylinder using basic tools, wood, bondi fill and casting resin.
We do most of our aircraft gearbox patterns on the CNC in amorboard.
I bought a pellet load of armorboard a few years ago, I'm not sure it's still available. The amorboard is good for machining with the CNC although it's important to use a vacume cleaner to keep the dust down while machining.
Wood is a good material to use for hand pattern construction. Best is kiln dried pine, I've just dissasembled two lounge chairs, plenty of dry wood in them.

Just thought I'd show ( picture above ) the YZ250 EFI still going about it's bussiness, a running testiment to twostroke EFI at work, it's done a few hours now.

[wax]

Ok that makes sense. Im really enjoying watching the work your doing on this cylinder casting. Keep up the good work. I have seen pics of your efi bike before. How do you find it holds its tune.

[Flettner]

Ok that makes sense. Im really enjoying watching the work your doing on this cylinder casting. Keep up the good work. I have seen pics of your efi bike before. How do you find it holds its tune.

We haven't needed to touch the tuning, it just keeps on doing the business, at between 14 - 20% less fuel burn over my standard YZ.
The original tuning was trouble free and within an hour we pretty much had the program that's in it now, ear and seat of the pants.
The reason it's so easy is because of the transfer port injection, each injection is a clean cycle with no residual fuel in the crank case.
Also because of what had been learn't with the Kawasaki F9 injection programe previously.
I'm just trying to point out to the doubters, that EFI on a two-stroke is practical.
We both suffered " incidents " ( hit tree roots ) in the race, it took me several miniutes to start my YZ as it lay on it's side ( as did I ) for a while and was flooded, but Wayne's EFI bike started first kick after it had been on it's side for a while, race winning advantage right there!

[Frits Overmars]

Frits what did you think of the YCAT transmission, Honda does one very similar for the new Dream/Wave
Honda CV-matic i can't read japanese but it looks like a wet clutch drive to me.(pics in english :))I hadn't seen either of them, but these pics look nice and compact compared to the usual scooter units. What kind of power, torque and revs is it supposed to handle?
(BTW, I think you're wrong: the pics are in dutch).

[Frits Overmars]

The Aprilia RSA 125 102 pipe is a Ti pipe? It has about 804mm of total lenght. This lenght is optimised for Ti or MildSteel?Yes, it's a titanium pipe, like all Aprilia works pipes. But your second question amazed me. Can you think of anything on the RSA that was not optimized?

[Flettner]

What are the two rubber boots for sprouting from the top of the CVT case for? Cooling air perhaps?
I maintain the best system I've seen uses a chain with hollow boxes at each link set at 90 degrees to the chain travel. Many shim like parts are in these boxes and can slide, sidways. The chain wraps around similar drive wheels like the vairable rubber belts BUT the surfaces of these wheels have grooves, like key ways, running radialy out from the centre. The wheels are set so that if there is a groove on one side there will be a lump on the other exactly opposite. The shims then slide one way or the other depending on what they " see " . This makes for positive drive with NO slipage and can handle large loads at lowish speeds ( final drive perhaps ). System runs in oil.
Bekham plastic extruders used to use this system, small gearbox with high load and minimal heat generated.

[RomeuPT]

Yes, it's titanium pipe, like all Aprilia works pipes. But your second question amazed me. Can you think of anything on the RSA that was not optimized?

I have no doubt that every detail was state of the art, maybe I didn't write exacly what I mean.

I was just thinking about the 8% less lenght rule of thumb for Stainless or Ti pipes.

Thanks

[twotempi]

Neil i googled armourboard and only came up with it in weatherboard form where do you get yours?


I think "Armourboard" is a laminex group product and is essentially high density customboard.

[Flettner]

Neil i googled armourboard and only came up with it in weatherboard form where do you get yours?


I think "Armourboard" is a laminex group product and is essentially high density customboard.

Yes, I think so. It's been a few years since I bought my pellet load and the place I got it from is gone now.
I still have at least one sheet on the rack. I think originaly I got ten, 8' x 4' sheets. We have made a few patterns!

[jasonu]

Yes, I think so. It's been a few years since I bought my pellet load and the place I got it from is gone now.
I still have at least one sheet on the rack. I think originaly I got ten, 8' x 4' sheets. We have made a few patterns!

Is it like custom wood? That is what we use when wood patterns are required.
www.lancair.com

[husaberg]

I hadn't seen either of them, but these pics look nice and compact compared to the usual scooter units. What kind of power, torque and revs is it supposed to handle?
(BTW, I think you're wrong: the pics are in dutch).
I thought i was the one with all the questions.:cool:this is the Yama, i guess it will be over engineered a bit, the honda one will be. :)

Dry weight / Curb weight

103kg / 108kg

Engine type Air-cooled, 4-stroke, SOHC, 2-valve
Cylinder arrangement Single cylinder
Displacement 113.7cc
Bore x Stroke 50mm x 57.9mm
Compression ratio 8.8:1
Maximum power 6.54kW(8.9 PS)/8,000rpm
Maximum torque 8.63N-m(0.88 kgf-m)/7,000rpm
Starting system Electric and Kick duo
Primary / Secondary reduction ratio 3.133 / 3.583
Clutch type Dry, centrifugal
Transmission type V-belt stepless
Gear ratios 2.369 - 0.820
Tire size(Front / Rear) 70/90-16 / 80/90-16


Model - Honda motorcycle Wave RSX FI AT
Total weight of motorcycle 105 kg

Engine type Gasoline, 4 stroke, 1 Cylinders, Air - Cooled
Displacement 109 cm3
Piston: Diameter x Stroke 50mm x 55,6 mm
Compession Ratio 9,0 : 1
Max out-put 5,74 kW/8.000 rpm
Max Torque 8,24 N.m/5.000 rpm
Transmission Auto
Starter system Electric / pedal





What are the two rubber boots for sprouting from the top of the CVT case for? Cooling air perhaps?
I maintain the best system I've seen uses a chain with hollow boxes at each link set at 90 degrees to the chain travel. Many shim like parts are in these boxes and can slide, sidways. The chain wraps around similar drive wheels like the vairable rubber belts BUT the surfaces of these wheels have grooves, like key ways, running radialy out from the centre. The wheels are set so that if there is a groove on one side there will be a lump on the other exactly opposite. The shims then slide one way or the other depending on what they " see " . This makes for positive drive with NO slipage and can handle large loads at lowish speeds ( final drive perhaps ). System runs in oil.
Bekham plastic extruders used to use this system, small gearbox with high load and minimal heat generated.
yes i posted a pic of a chain CVT a while a go but i doubt i could fab one.
http://www.upsite.co.il/uploaded/images/932_daa048351215b7ea0b98ec842ca42b36.jpg


Neil i googled armourboard and only came up with it in weatherboard form where do you get yours?


I think "Armourboard" is a laminex group product and is essentially high density customboard.
much higher resin component i think


Is it like custom wood? That is what we use when wood patterns are required.
www.lancair.com
much higher resin component i think

[kel]

The heat generated by going leaner over the top of the pipe will mostly be transmitted into the pipe.
Thus maybe the Ex duct in the cylinder will get hotter, but I dont see that being a limiting issue.
What is the ignition curve, as this may be limiting the overev power past 12,000

Rob set the ignition curve on the dyno so should be fairly close to optimum. Unfortunately I don't currently have access to the laptop that the correct ignition curve is stored on. Have made some on the fly changes to the igni during street testing so its no good uploading the curve from the ignition :facepalm:
We'll get the bike on to the dyno in the next couple of weeks, all going well it will rev another 500 or so rpm before falling on its face. Will upload the results.

[TZ350]

.

I have learned from Flettner, that a competition two stroke can be successfully fuel injected and that EFI can work very well on 2T's.

289908289909

With Flettners guidance and his example of two very successful working bikes using the Link EFI unit, one on E90 and the other on pump gas I have been encouraged to have a go myself using an Ecotrons small engine fuel injection kit for two strokes.

http://www.ecotrons.com/2_Stroke_Small_Engine_EFI_kit.html

289911

Blue line is the Fuel Injected YZ250 (pump gas) and Red line is the Kawasaki Big Horn (E90).

The first lessons I had to absorb were that the timing of the Injection end point is critical on a two stroke and should be timed to end at transfer port closing and the fuel should be injected into the transfer ports, either counter stream like the YZ250 or across the port like the Kawasaki but definitely not straight into the inlet or the crankcase itself. To be successful the full fuel charge has to be inducted into the cylinder on each cycle otherwise you get rich/lean cycles and poor running.


As it has turned out … this is the way forward ( port injection ) not inlet injection.

The pulsing of the injectors at below 1/3 ( approx. ) throttle the injectors are on for a very short time.

So within the intake phase only a small part of that flow has fuel the rest is just air.

The crank case is not a 100% pump so some volume is trapped behind each cycle.

The small parcel of fuel MAY NOT be fully transferred to the cylinder each cycle ( mixture strength not constant ) The engine will run and run apparently ( to the ear ) clean but no real power.

Transfer injection allows for the full fuel dump each cycle to be transferred to the cylinder nothing left over to affect the next cycle.

As I understand it: with a carburetor, any time air moves fuel gets mixed with it, so all the inducted air in the crank case has air with fuel more or less evenly mixed throughout it.

With a fuel injection system that has discreet injection pulses and with the injector at the inlet only some of the inducted air will have fuel mixed in with it. Now inside the crank case there are patches of air with no fuel, and some over rich areas.

With inlet injection its random what air/fuel mixture strength gets sucked into the cylinder, you might get a few lean cycles then a heavily over rich one and this is what is happening when the motor is hunting. And if you richen it up so there is no lean cycles then the whole thing goes so rich that the motor will barely run at all.

As we all know, a certain amount of air requires a certain amount of fuel. But with inlet injection the fuel does not get mixed evenly into the air as it passes through the crank case so you have no chance of controlling the exact amount of fuel being inducted into the cylinder with inlet port injection.

But with transfer port injection you have a much better chance of controlling the exact amount of fuel that gets inducted into the cylinder on each cycle.

(direct injection into the cylinder is another very good approach to 2T EFI, but I cant easily get suitable fuel injection parts to try that).




289903

I guess I've been lucky, I put my injectors here to hide them. As it happened this was the right compromise. These two 720 cc injectors flow enough fuel on E90 to be fully fueling at about 180 degrees timing. I fire these injectors at 60 degrees after TDC so there is a time when transfers are not open but fuel is waiting at the transfer catchment ready to go. Because this is the back transfer it seems enough oil is feed down to the bigend. It's done fifty hours now with no bigend or main bearing problems.

YZ250 counter flow injection makes for good air/fuel mixing.



289910

Injectors don't spit, they produce more of a fog. Aiming against the flow is not a bad thing. Or across the catchment of the port.


Took the EFI YZ250 to the Epic Events ride Taupo / Napier road yesterday, in the rain. Performed flawlessly thoughout the whole day. Tuned to give smooth broad power, best for these conditions. It's a lot of fun to ride, this is the first ever "Event" it's been to.


Took the EFI YZ out for another trail ride, 20% fuel savings this time over my standard YZ. It depends on the type of riding, the closer to full throttle the less the savings. This was a tighter track, Tarawera. Last time out it was measured at 14%, Epic events fast and open. Thought it was interesting.


289902
EFI YZ250 at the Acerbis 4 hour two weeks ago. Wayne Blackwood at the controls.



I have seen pics of your efi bike before. How do you find it holds its tune.
We haven't needed to touch the tuning, it just keeps on doing the business, at between 14 - 20% less fuel burn over my standard YZ.

The original tuning was trouble free and within an hour we pretty much had the program that's in it now, ear and seat of the pants.
The reason it's so easy is because of the transfer port injection, each injection is a clean cycle with no residual fuel in the crank case.

Also because of what had been learn't with the Kawasaki F9 injection programe previously. I'm just trying to point out to the doubters, that EFI on a two-stroke is practical.

We both suffered " incidents " ( hit tree roots ) in the race, it took me several miniutes to start my YZ as it lay on it's side ( as did I ) for a while and was flooded, but Wayne's EFI bike started first kick after it had been on it's side for a while, race winning advantage right there!

[TZ350]

First time on a dyno

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/UEQli7nuak4" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

EFI YZ250 Dyno Run

289912


EFI YZ250 in the Forrest


<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/1YG9ko8-Nwk" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

The EFI YZ is getting used at trail rides, three now, trouble free.

We are experimenting with injection timing changes, interestingly this changes the way the power is delivered.

So far a 14% fuel saving over my carbed YZ 250. Same track, same times, same rider. This must go to show there is less fuel spillage out the exhaust.


<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/ifSEql1X4R0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

EFI Kawasaki Bighorn dyno run and tuning. Air cooled 350cc running on ethanol. Link injection controller. Took a few runs to get it right.

289913



That is awesome, i'm still impressed by the old 350, that thing would had some punch!

I noticed that it *seems* like it really brick walls at the top end of the rev range, is this just the sound of the video making it sound flat or does it not have a lot of over-rev?

It's hitting the rev limiter and the last fueling square is a bit rich I think.

289914

Yes the Kawasaki is a lot of fun to ride, certainly some modern bike riders don't expect to see this old bike accelerate like it does although as soon as it cuts up rough, I'm out.

[TZ350]

Some EFI ideas and tec talk.




Around 50 years ago when EFI wasn't even a dot on the horizon, Irving suggested constant flow injection via the big end. Hilborn injection was pretty much state of the art then with Lucas and Bosch just getting progress on mechanical injecion.It's still a viable scheme - just vary the pump output to suit.
Grumph, yes if you want to inject into the intake constant flow injection would be the way to go ( like a carb ). I made a version of this previous ( not electronic ), sort of worked.

I ended up realising that an electronic variable pump was the way to go ( constant flow ) but in the mean time thought I would have a go at standard ( ish ) EFI in the interim. As it has turned out this is the way forward ( port injection ) not inlet injection.

I have pointed this out earlier that the pulsing of the injectors at below 1/3 ( approx ) throttle the injectors are on for a very short time. So within the intake phase only a small part of that flow has fuel the rest is just air. The crank case is not a 100% pump so some volume is trapped behind each cycle.

The small parcel of fuel MAY NOT be fully transfered to the cylinder each cycle ( mixture strength not constant ) The engine will run and run apparently ( to the ear ) clean but no real power. Transfer injection allows for the full fuel dump each cycle to be transfered to the cylinder nothing left over to affect the next cycle. I worried about the oiling but on inspection it appeared all was oily.

As it happens the F9 is in bits now, a 1973 gearbox bearing let me down. Last trail ride there was some squealing ( from the engine not rider this time ). Sounded like a gearbox bearing, worse on decel and sure enough main input shaft bearing behind the clutch. Engine itself is still in good condition ( and oily ).

I mix at 40 to 1 Micro T with a little castor, injectors and general fuel system seems to be fine with this mixture. Although my fuel burn is approx 1.8 / 1.9 to that of petrol.

DO NOT run dead loss electrical system. Run a suitable aulternator, it doesn't take much voltage loss to affect the injector on time ( it will run lean as voltage drops ). Small high output aulternators are available.

You will spend hours and hours trying to tune something that will never tune. The goal posts are always changing! You NEED constant voltage. I'm sure I've written this before on this forum but I had a regulator that would randomly cut out ( get hot ) and the computer would have to run on battery power for a while until the regulator cooled and decided to work again. The engine was constantly going from lean to rich ( I had it set rich to try and compensate for the lean times ) UN TUNABLE! I ended up running a small digital volt meter for a while after this episode, didn't trust the new regulator!

Just relaying my experiences so others don't fall in the same traps.
Irving's idea was injection via the big end - ie, fuel under pressure fed into the crank and exiting via the big end slots, cooling the bearing as it passed - and incidentally being well vaporised in the process.

Interesting comments re electrical supply - and all true in my experience too.
Some years back I was asked advice on small alternators by a local engineering firm doing a small 4 stroke aero engine. They had space and weight probs and thought a bike alternator could help. Sadly I couldn't point to one small enough for them.

The internet and advances in rare earth magnets have made available just what they needed. One of the biggest probs Rob Selby had on the Britten motor was packaging the alternator securely. He was never really happy with it.




Would it be sound to use an 02 sensor? Injecting at the back port and timing right you will spill air out the exhaust, not fuel air, so your sensor will say to the computer more fuel required when it will not be required.
Avgas will kill any O2-sensor; pump fuel mixed with two-stroke oil will in theory do the same, but if you take care to heat the sensor to working temperature before starting the engine, and provided the sensor is not too close to the cylinder so it won't be hit by washed-through mixture, the sensor will last a long time.

I can hardly imagine that with the right injection timing you can avoid fuel entering the exhaust, certainly not over the entire rev range.
In order to make real power, the pipe needs to receive and subsequently push back about 40% of the cylinder capacity and I do not think you can separate air and fuel to such a degree that no fuel will enter the pipe.

But in order to keep the sensor clean it will have to be fitted well away from the cylinder anyway.
At the end of the day it all depends on how the injection system is instructed to handle the various sensor signals.
No, I am talking about low speed, bottom third throttle.

I'm only guessing but I don't think an 02 sensor in a twostroke is a very useful tool.


With the LINK, we run the MAP off the exhaust ( load ). This runs a separate overlay graph that influences the fueling with load. Also this same pipe is connected to the fuel regulator.


I've always thought running a mechanical variable fuel pressure regulator was not a good idea. Unless you are also monitoring fuel pressure you have introduced a variable.

All good if you have confidence that the regulator reliably and consistently varies the fuel pressure against the manifold, or in this case exhaust, pressure. Just relying on the mechanical regulator to do the same thing all the time seemed hopeful.


That's how almost all cars run their regulators, connected to the inlet manifold, turbo engines also.


I thought it was to maintain a constant pressure at the nozzle, add 10 lbs boost in the manifold so add 10 lbs to the fuel rail , your system seems to be for a different purpose, that could have been covered by a simple map/ exhaust pressure sensor and mapping accordingly. Why add mechanical complexity when you can use even more complicated electronics to do it.


yes, you are right, this system is to maintain constant pressure differential at the injector. This effectively changes the mixture if you like, with out this the computer has to work a little harder on the calculations.

This is a simple system to help maintain relativity, has worked like this for forty years now with high performance turbo engines relying on this simple piece of tech. It works as accurate and as fast as it needs to, in the real world. It would not work well connected to the twostroke intake, unless you used a sampling type of system. Only reads at a certain point of the intake process but that would be difficult to set up.

I can only speak from my experience with the Kawasaki, it worked for me ( connected to the mid section of the chamber )


most efis run around 40 psi (in cars) I would assume that is what he would run


Yes between 42 and 45 psi, depending on the chamber pressure.

Timing is critical. Injecting into the inlet port is no good on a twostroke, that is where everyone else EFIing twostrokes goes wrong! It Doesn't work.
I had no problems up to 9000 RPM ( getting injectors energised and get fuel moving, on ethanol too )


The twostroke has a lot less crap to turn over, I think you will find Rotax DI twostroke snow engines have been shown to be better in every way than the fourstrokes they compete with, including emissions and fuel economy, that's still just a loop scavenge engine.
Also indirect injection ( rear transfer port ) has been shown to burn approx 20% less fuel than a standard twostroke under the same riding conditions, same top end power. Dyno tested. EFI Twostroke's are looking pretty good


Why is it always assumed the " twostroke" has to be a loop scavenge type engine. Sure it's what we have ended up with by default ( when supercharging was banned ), It's sort of the best of what was around at the time. Move on, loop scavenge has problems that have only partly been solved by electronics ( EFI ). The exhaust port needs to move to the other end of the cylinder from the inlets.


Twostrokes are far from fully developed. If you want a clean, fuel efficient engine, the twostroke would be the obvious choice. Uniflow type scavenge twostoke engines have already shown the way forward. This interestingly can be done without EFI / DFI. Fill the cylinder from one end and exhaust from the other end, clean combustion each cycle with ( if done properly ) no exhaust recirculation. This type of scavenge will produce BMEP's similar to fourstrokes, truly twice the power per cc. At the moment it's not, even including free supercharging from the resonant pipe. The problem is they run out of port time / area / pressure, at higher rpm like a normal twostroke. There are systems "out there" that can produce uniflow scavenge AND increase port time / area ( still using simple light / cheap crankcase pumping ). These have not yet been fully explored.
Using poppet valves in the head is not the answer, perhaps for a low speed diesel, but not for a high speed twostroke.


APART from electronics, as these can be used on both 2 and 4 stroke, what has the fourstroke bought us development wise that's that much different than say the 1960's? Still four valve ( poppets ), still twin over head cam, still require many revs to make power ( BMEP is still much the same, just at a higher RPM ). Parts are lighter, a little less internal friction ( special coatings ). Not much excitement there!

Twostroke development was just getting started but the rules soon took care of that!
I think perhaps the " manufactures" didn't like the idea of modifying your twostroke with just a die grinder and a few clues. Fourstroke's are far more profitable to hot up with all that stuff, cams, valves, springs, pistons, etc, etc. The more you spend, the shorter the fuse.

The only fourstroke I have in my shed is sitting there waiting for it's 50hr piston change and I just can't get excited about it! I'd rather ride my "dirty old twostroke", way more fun.

The Big Horns variable rotary valve cover.

289915


289919

Nothing wrong with an o ring head seal on air cooled two stroke.

The physical layout of the system is very important too.


You must send the fuel back to the tank, separately.

You must have a large flow pipe to the pump from the tank also a large flow pre filter and an high pressure after filter.

Much fuel is traveling around the circuit. You do not want cavitation, you do not want any blockage or you engine will expire, quickly.

Those little chinese pumps do not like any contamination / cavitation.

Your engine relies heavily on this pump maintaining constant flow / pressure.

The YZ250's Drum Valve inlet.

289916289920289917



TZ 350, Have you got one TPS feeding the two computers?
289918
Yes ....

[TZ350]

290003

My EFI stuff from Ecotrons http://www.ecotrons.com/2_Stroke_Small_Engine_EFI_kit.html turned up today, only 4 days delivery time and it was Easter, how good is that!


Great Excitement.

290004

The Beast, with its EFI heart beating feebly lives, although its still on life support.



I am learning as I go and have found that in setting up an EFI there are a number of things to consider.

1) Start Conditions range of Temperature and engine RPM where start conditions stop.
2) Starting cold or warm starting at cranking speed
3) Transition from cranking speed to low running warm up speed.
4) Warm Up at higher speeds like, while blipping the throttle.
5) VE Map Volumetric Efficiency also called Speed Density or Load map, the axis are RPM/MAP
6) Alpha N map, the axis are TPS/RPM
7) A way of switching between or Blending the VE and Alpha-N maps

The EcoTrons EFI has some basic fuel factor settings and curves associated with getting the engine started and warmed up.

Global Factor, ranges from 0 to 4 , < 1 it leans things off, > 1 it richens things up.
Start Factor only applies at cranking speed and its value reduces to 1 at 1000 rpm
After Start Factor lasts 60 sec and is the transition from Starting to Warming Up
Warm Up Factor lasts up to 360 sec, shorter if the engine warms up quickly.

These Fuel Factors are multiplied together by the CPU to dynamically get the Fueling value required.

Start Fuel = Start Factor * Global Factor
After Start Fuel = After Start Factor * Warm Up Factor * Global Factor
Warm Up Fuel = Warm Up Factor * Global Factor

After the motor has warmed up the Fueling is governed by the Global Factor and Load (VE/MAP) or Alpha-N (TPS/RPM) map.

Fuel = Global Factor * Load (VE/MAP)map.
or
Fuel = Global Factor * Alpha-N (TPS/RPM)map.

The Global Factor is just a quick and dirty way of leaning or enriching things up. When all the maps are OK the Global Factor should have been able to be set at 1.

I have been able to get the Beast to start and run roughly during warm up but after a few minutes when it gets to running temperature it splutters to a stop.

290002

This suggests to me that the first (load) map is set too rich as indicated by the dotted line on the right of my graph, and/or something else is going on.



Pretty sure with Ecotrons on a 2-stroke they only use the TPS and not the MAP sensor to determine fuel at any point, + revs of course.

Ok ... you might be right.

With the VE map, MAP manifold absolute pressure vis RPM, after a week or two on the dyno I now think I have been barking up the wrong tree.

Its not obvious from reading the manual but I have come to suspect your right, on a 2-Stroke Ecotrons only uses the Alpha-N load based map.

I will check this with Matt.


290001

I checked with Matt, and now we know for sure that Ecotrons EFI software for 2T's comes with only the TPS Based Load map functioning and the Volumetric Efficiency map disabled even though we can still see it and make changes to it.

support@ecotrons.com
Re: Does a 2T ignore the VE map?

For the 2 stroke engine, it use A/N MAP in default and disable the P/N MAP.
Because usually the 2 stroke engine intake pressure change is very small, phase judgment is not very accurate.
You can log some data and send to us, if the intake pressure change is bigger, we can help you switch to P/N MAP.
Thx
Ecotrons Tech Support 001

So now we know for sure, although you can see and adjust the MAP/RPM VE map, apparently for two strokes Ecotrons EFI systems are provided with only the TPS/RPM Alpha-N map switched on, Ecotrons will unlock the VE volumetric efficiency map for you if you really want to work with that one too.

Performance Fuel Systems has great technical articles about fuel injectors. http://performancefuelsystems.com/tech.htm
(http://performancefuelsystems.com/tech.htm)
It would seem that connecting the fuel regulator to the manifold is all about maintaining consistent fuel pressure at the injectors metering orifice for consistent delivery volume. Flettner points out that we can attach it to the expansion chamber to enrichen the fuel under load.

290013

An injector does not instantaneously snap open, it take a finite amount of time to reach full flow. 2ms (2 thousandths of a second) is the rule of thumb, below that, the flow is mostly non-linear and erratic.

Thankfully its better on the closing side as the fuel injection pressure helps with closing the injector’s needle valve so closing is much more rapid than opening.

A little math ..... 8,000 rpm / 60 = 133 rps x 360 deg = 48,000 deg sec / 1000 = 48 deg/ms

So at 8k rpm the crank turns 48 degrees in one mille second or 96 degrees in the time it takes to open the injector properly (ie 2ms).

2ms @ 8k rpm = 96 deg of crank rotation
2ms @ 10k rpm = 120 deg of crank rotation
2ms @ 12k rpm = 144 deg of crank rotation
2ms @ 14k rpm = 168 deg of crank rotation

If the transfers open 115 deg ATDC then they are only open for 130 deg total.

So if at 12k rpm it takes 144 degrees (2ms) to get the injector fully open and another 72 degrees (1ms) to deliver sufficient fuel then the injectors pulse width is 3ms and it is energized for 216 degrees which is way more time, than the transfer port is actually open.

Thankfully most of the early fuel will be a cloud hanging around in the transfer duct waiting to be blown into the cylinder when the transfer port opens, much like the cloud of fuel waiting behind the inlet valve in an EFI four-stroke.

With my two injector system the EFI CPU will swap to the larger injector when the pulse width on the smaller one gets out to 324 or so degrees (for 90% duty cycle).

290012

Green line is the transfer port duration, red line is the pulse width of the injector, in this drawing it takes 2ms to ramp up and another 1ms to deliver the full fuel load. So the injector is energized for 3ms or 216 degrees or for longer than the total transfer duration at 12,000 rpm. The right hand side shows the partial fuel cloud forming in the transfer duct as the injector opens and before the transfer port opens. Thankfully the injector turns off faster than it opens.

Flettner makes the point that its important, in fact the whole key to successfully fuel injecting a two stroke, to have the injection period timed to end at the transfer port closing.

So the first lessons I had to absorb were that the timing of the Injection end point is critical on a two stroke and should be timed to end at transfer port closing and the fuel should be injected into the transfer ports, either counter stream like the YZ250 or across the port like the Kawasaki but definitely not straight into the inlet or the crankcase itself. To be successful the full fuel charge has to be inducted into the cylinder on each cycle (just like a 4T) otherwise you get rich/lean cycles and poor running.

The next step is to figure out how to get the injection end point timing right.

Flettner suggested to me a way of making a trigger mechanism for a timing light that will show where the injection points are.

Its basically a 12V solenoid coil with 14 Ohms DC resistance or there abouts. Fitted with a mild steel core and a CDI trigger coil attached so its pole piece is held firmly against the mild steel core of the solenoid coil. Then the solenoid coil is plugged into the injector socket. Connect the CDI trigger to something like an Ignitec set on zero advance and ignition coil and spark plug and by using a timing light and by reversing the solenoid coil connections back and forth you can see the injection end point and starting point.

Clever idea I reckon.

[wobbly]

But what im saying is that if the ignition curve isnt correct for making power above 12,000 then turning off fuel up there could kill the engine in a flash.
I dont get what you are saying Kel, the "changed" curve in the box now, is what you are running, so thats what I want to see???
Hard to help with no info to go on.

[Flettner]

[QUOTE=husaberg;1130638332]moved on to bb's from the beads...... more masculine :msn-wink:

Yes the beads, I found a shop that sells beads and that sort of stuff. So go in, dressed in my overalls with a vernier to measure and after a time find the right size plastic beads. Over to the counter to pay for the things, the lady asks what are you going to do with these beads, O pattern making I say. With that she raises an eyebrow and looks a bit sideways at me, I think, thats odd?
So half way home I'm driving and suddenly the thought comes to me, She ( the lady behind the counter ) thought I ment DRESS pattern making! I can't go back to that shop again so I find B B gun pellets are just as good and no one looks sideways at you when you purchace them.

[2T Institute]

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4258_zpse03da743.jpg

EFI YZ250 at the Acerbis 4 hour two weeks ago. Wayne Blackwood at the controls.

Should have been barred from the meeting with texta numbers, if your going to do that it should have been electrical tape or proper brought ones :laugh:

[RAW]

Wobbly, this increased heat within the exhaust, would it lead to increased heat upon the piston skirt and if to great result in the burning away of the skirt about and below the ring groove / no burning away of the piston above the ring

Power jet issue and or timing issue ?

I've got another piston burnt away now, HELP

[speedpro]

Every time I've had pistons fizzled away around the ring on the exhaust port side it's been an ignition timing issue.

[wobbly]

I have heard of late model TZ250s have an issue with piston burning due to excessive retard ( like after TDC ) when in the overev - as well as having the powerjet switch off , but its usually
too much advance at some point lower down in the rev range that tears up the ring lands.
If its too much timing at peak, you will hole the piston.


Here is the link to the Frepin TZ400 startup and first dyno session

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8ZJCPXAIyA

[husaberg]

Looks cool wasn't expecting the astralikes and kinda thought it was going Yellow....
Wax my half baked thoughts are that scooter with its CVT would be living its entire life in the Two stroke death zone. the PJ and ignition functions were not designed for a life there, were they a method of extending the over rev for a few short moments.
edit i realized the Scooter is WAX not RAW whoops
oh Wob wasn't the rs honda's firing them after tdc too

chucked this here as it gets more traffic.
Anyone seen this crazy Hp for the carb size........... optimistic dyno?
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/162037-UK-bucket-owner-Honda-H100-or-MB100-tuning-advice?highlight=mb100+h100

http://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=279145

http://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=253852&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

engine looks like it was tuned in Germany.
Cylinder Head is like our H100 less fining than fish fillet and open road.
No exp with plated bores but i have never ran in a 2 stroke without taking of the high spots during the bedding in process.

[RAW]

I have heard of late model TZ250s have an issue with piston burning due to excessive retard ( like after TDC ) when in the overev - as well as having the powerjet switch off , but its usually
too much advance at some point lower down in the rev range that tears up the ring lands.
If its too much timing at peak, you will hole the piston.


Here is the link to the Frepin TZ400 startup and first dyno session

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8ZJCPXAIyA

Cheers Wobbly

Yeh the ring land reference was just to let you know where the piston was eroding / melting away
It's just below the ring groove, we actually burnt a hole through the piston wall, it kept running just down on power with a slight nip up type feel to it

I will hopefully get down to the Island to see the machine in the flesh

[wobbly]

Na, the RS125/250 never had a factory curve that ended after TDC.
It simply wasnt needed when the "new " powerjet system ( as Yamaha had used for years , to pump up the stupid 50.6 stroke engines )
was introduced when leaded race gas was banned in 1998.

[senso]

As said, here are some photos about the sachs finned cases:
http://s14.postimg.org/fxg2952rl/DSC04353.jpg

http://s9.postimg.org/yhpv5jwu7/DSC04354.jpg

http://s14.postimg.org/6tm8mfqkh/DSC04355.jpg

http://s9.postimg.org/6vn3kvdhb/DSC04356.jpg

Edit: Corrected the links, now showing the 4 photos as supposed.

[TZ350]

Thanks, that is very interesting as my problem is being able to reject enough waste heat through air cooling.

[senso]

Have you tried glass bead blasting the cylinder and the head?

[F5 Dave]

While we're getting desperate, maybe a coarse sand would give it that weathered look & expose even more surface area?

[Frits Overmars]

While we're getting desperate, maybe a coarse sand would give it that weathered look & expose even more surface area?I fear that as long as the coarseness (coarsity?) is less than the boundary layer thickness of the air clinging to the surface, it will only create an isolating air blanket....

[Flettner]

Enter the transfer port master and transfer core box.
Water core box next, then all will become clear, as to how it all fits together.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4463_zps119bff3c.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4462_zps16be5103.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4471_zpsbefe4eda.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4470_zps4ef4bc21.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4468_zps10a00436.jpg

[F5 Dave]

I fear that as long as the coarseness (coarsity?) is less than the boundary layer thickness of the air clinging to the surface, it will only create an isolating air blanket....
Ok I can believe that. Nice word evolution.

[husaberg]

As said, here are some photos about the sachs finned cases:


Edit: Corrected the links, now showing the 4 photos as supposed.

I see your Sachs and I raise you a Penton.....which could be a sachs. also think the DKW and the Zundap were similarly finned
http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/4/5/8/0/9/3/webimg/350408104_tp.jpg

[senso]

From a lot of photos(from this epic topic), it seems like the sachs engine is almost a copy of the dkw ones.
The finning on the zundapp engines are not as big/long, they only span around the crankcase, nothing or almost nothing under the gearbox.

[Drew]

The good folk at mini seemed to think it was worth it too. Suppose it's a bit different on a four stroke with the oil being pumped through the motor though.

[FastFred]

Enter the transfer port master and transfer core box.
Water core box next, then all will become clear, as to how it all fits together.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4463_zps119bff3c.jpg


I can't quite picture it yet but I am enjoying seeing this pattern coming together, thanks.

[F5 Dave]

I see your Sachs and I raise you a Penton.....which could be a sachs. also think the DKW and the Zundap were similarly finned

I was going to say Penton was the Amorican distrubutor of KTM & badged them as such, but a quick Google sez the first Pentons ran Sachs engines.

[Yow Ling]

I can't quite picture it yet but I am enjoying seeing this pattern coming together, thanks.

I cant quite picture it either but was scared to tell the Emperor he had no clothes.
Even simple moulds are not so simple once the cores turn up

[mr bucketracer]

I can't quite picture it yet but I am enjoying seeing this pattern coming together, thanks.i would say its the transfer port right around the cylinder witch will be made of core materal and removed to make the ports

[TZ350]

This pattern making has really got me interested, guess whats next after I have conquered EFI.

[F5 Dave]

This pattern making has really got me interested, guess whats next after I have conquered EFI.
A sit down with a nice cup of tea & a book?

[husaberg]

This pattern making has really got me interested, guess whats next after I have conquered EFI.


A sit down with a nice cup of tea & a book?

Nah some liver with some fava beans, and a nice Chianti:shutup:

ps Dave i thought the same re the Penton.till i went looking for the pic.

[Flettner]

Right, water core is done.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4476_zps6eb154e8.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4477_zps02fc085e.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4478_zpsd50547e8.jpg

And poured a cylinder resin core copy

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4472_zpsc02c5072.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4475_zps8ed4ad69.jpg

copies of the transfer port

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4480_zps17f30231.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4481_zps134e5778.jpg

Next I will be building the actual pattern, with these parts inside. Core prints will stick out of the final pattern ( thats all the tapered bits you can see on the ends of everything. It will become clear.

And all together

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4482_zpsce5c6f95.jpg

[TZ350]

That is very very clever.

[Frits Overmars]

This pattern making has really got me interested, guess whats next after I have conquered EFI.If it's not the continuously variable transmission, then these pictures may be of some use to you:

[Flettner]

By using this framework of cores, made in the same boxes that will be producing the sand cores for the moulding, you will get the cores within the mould in the right place. Cores are held in place, in the sand mould, by core prints ( the tapered bits ) seen here on an earlier pattern. The next step is to add " thickness " to the core copies and build the pattern up. I'm not sure I'm explaining the process well, you will see in the next step. You start from the inside first, make the cores, then core boxes, then copies of the cores from these boxes, ( all my original cores are on the shelf now, never used again unless there is a major catastrophe), glues all the cores in place, relative to each other, then add " thickness" to the outside. All these white bits will eventully be hard sand, where you don't want aluminium you need sand.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_0515.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_0516.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_0517.jpg

[TZ350]

If it's not the continuously variable transmission, then these pictures may be of some use to you:

Thanks for the pictures of the cores.

290120

Looks like the first Team ESE adventure with CVT is going to be Chambers center steer sidecar.

[F5 Dave]

Centre steer? Is that where you have a slightly bigger wheel in the middle of the rig & turn that? Radical!:eek:

[jasonu]

Thanks for the pictures of the cores.

290120

Looks like the first Team ESE adventure with CVT is going to be Chambers center steer sidecar.

Looks light it will weigh a ton or two.

[Flettner]

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4484_zpsc5d38f1c.jpg

Starting to build the outside shape, beads and bondi fill. Beads are stuck on with a hot glue gun, real pattern makers don't use a hot glue gun, apparently. Or for that matter, plastic beads.

[F5 Dave]

Well not at work they probably don't. but at home when making an above the knee, slash front, summer dress they probably do;).

[RAW]

If it's not the continuously variable transmission, then these pictures may be of some use to you:


Frits are those casting core pictures the RSA or Francis Pyarts FPE ?

[Frits Overmars]

Frits are those casting core pictures the RSA or Francis Pyarts FPE ?Good question, RAW. The pictures stem from Francis Payart who produces exact copies of the RSA parts. The only difference is that the small cooling channels inside the inner curvatures of the RSA's transfer ducts are absent in the FPE cylinders. Understandably so, because they are not easy to cast.
PS: the picture below is from a FOS cylinder; I didn't fancy cutting an RSA cylinder in half. But you'll get the idea.

[monkeyfumi]

Have you had your FOS cylinder running yet Frits?

[Flettner]

No problem Frits, I can get holes in the thick part of the casting, poor foundry techniques and we could get shrinkage voids where ever you want.

[husaberg]

OK i will bite why can't you just cast in a thin tube of a higher melting point metal to create the void.....

[Grumph]

No problem Frits, I can get holes in the thick part of the casting, poor foundry techniques and we could get shrinkage voids where ever you want.

Ha, sadly, all too common...

Husa, remember that where you want air or water in a barrel casting, you must have a core...putting a short, call it a joiner, core between
the water passages each side of a transfer and between the cylinser wall and the transfer wall would call for pattern work of the highest order...

[husaberg]

Ha, sadly, all too common...

Husa, remember that where you want air or water in a barrel casting, you must have a core...putting a short, call it a joiner, core between
the water passages each side of a transfer and between the cylinder wall and the transfer wall would call for pattern work of the highest order...

Think further along the process, Say "Where you want alloy is there is actually fresh air". So adding a higher melting point tube in theory could be practical. if not a little tricky to position. ;)
Think about the cast in sleeve for instance. Only in reverse.

[Flettner]

Yes quite possibe, but the problem would be holding it in position while casting. You would need some sort of attachment from the "tube" you want to hold in place to the outside ( just like what a core print does ). A metal ( steel ) tube would expand on contact with the hot metal so the attachment would need to be flexable. Not impossible by any means but tricky. You would be better off just making another core box and mould a hard sand core with core prints ( to hold it in place ).

Just sent one half of the 360 engine case pattern to the foundry today, other half is still getting finishing touches. This project has been sitting for too long.

[Frits Overmars]

No problem Frits, I can get holes in the thick part of the casting, poor foundry techniques and we could get shrinkage voids where ever you want.And only where I want? :devil2:

[wax]

What engine are you building this cylinder for, I cant see where you said or if you did

[Flettner]

No, you are right, I didn't say.

[Drew]

No, you are right, I didn't say.You seem to have some cards...glued to your chest.

[Flettner]

Ok, it was crapy glue anyway. I'm not sure is the real answer. I am concidering a YZ125 as a base but either way I'll need to re make the cases as the transfer port arrangement won't suit. Also I'm not sure anyone has noticed yet but this cylinder is not an FOS type, although it may look like it. There is an extra part I haven't shown yet, see below. Remember it's a uniflow scavange type, with one piston.

OK now I've shown the missing part, let the "debate" begin.

<a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_1284_zpsbabecf1d.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_1284_zpsbabecf1d.jpg"/></a>

[Flettner]

It's not finished yet it needs the centre grinding to size, honeing inside and out, then nitrided. It has been double stress relived during manufacture.

[F5 Dave]

I was expecting you to answer The Flett008 of course.



but ok I'll start the ball off in the usual time prescribed manner;


your idea will never work, else why has Honda not done it before?


Just to make you feel at home like.:rolleyes:




Seriously though, enjoying this thread lately

[190mech]

First post here;Ive followed this thread for years!
Looks kind of like a sleeve valve cylinder??

[mr bucketracer]

First post here;Ive =followed this thread for years!
Looks kind of like a sleeve valve cylinder??+1 also can get ones that can rotate as well

[fatbastd]

I'm going with sleeve valve as well..

[speedpro]

sleeve valve but as usual Neil has a twist, or not a twist as the case may be!!!

[Flettner]

SOO, no major aqruments against sleeve valve? Yes sleeve valve, as per the RR Crecy. I too would not belive a sleeve valve was a workable solution but if you read the reports on the Crecy development by Harry Riccardo there were some pretty impressive results. 1000 hours, 380 ish BMEP, 14 lbs boost on the V twin test engine. There was a lot of trouble with the sleeve for a start, until they were nitrided and honed type finish. Sleeve is open ended, does not rotate ( it did rotate a little in the Crecy because of the drive system ).
So, why not?

[TZ350]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/zPEbv3DlGh0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


290165

Crecy Engine and 15,000rpm, I want one.

[husaberg]

Crecy Engine and 15,000rpm, I want one.

Were they louder or quieter than a conventional engine?

[TZ350]

...the timing of the Injection end point is critical on a two stroke and should be timed to end at transfer port closing ...

Flettner suggested to me a way of making a trigger mechanism for a timing light that will show where the injection points are.

Its basically a 12V solenoid coil with 14 Ohms DC resistance or there abouts. Fitted with a mild steel core and a CDI trigger coil attached so its pole piece is held firmly against the mild steel core of the solenoid coil. Then the solenoid coil is plugged into the injector socket. Connect the CDI trigger to something like an Ignitec set on zero advance and ignition coil and spark plug and by using a timing light and by reversing the solenoid coil connections back and forth you can see the injection end point and starting point.

Clever idea I reckon.

First cut at verifying the timing of the injection end point.

290171

Fitted a pointer and drew a line at TDC and marked out the transfer duration.

290172290173

Lashed a regular trigger coil to a 12V solenoid with a bolt through it.

290175

An analog volt meter is great for checking for pulsed signals.

Any time there is a pulse the needle flicks, easy to see, you just can't do that with a digital meter, they don't react fast enough.

290174

Connected the solenoid coil to the injector plug and the new trigger coil to the Ignitecs trigger input.

290177

Set the Ignitec map to zero, now it will fire immediately it sees a trigger pulse (well, actually it fires 360 degrees later, but it looks like its immediately and its in the same position the pulse occurred).

Spun it up using the dyno as a starter motor I could get sparks using the regular trigger but I could not get anything from the lashed up solenoid/trigger coil arrangement.

But from looking at the various Voltages I can see that the injector is pulsed by momentarily grounding one side, this applys 12V across it, (otherwise both sides are at the same potential, 12V). I couldn't see a corresponding pulse from the solenoid/trigger lashup, maybe to much inductance in the solenoid coil for it to react properly to the 2ms pulse. Might have to make something using a transistor Schmit trigger.

Got the recipe wrong somewhere, no problems, plenty to think about and another day tomorrow.

[Grumph]

Most inductive type pickups can be tested by flicking a screwdriver across them which suggests it's the collapse of the magnetic field which triggers the pulse. Either having your pickup attatched to the core gives too large a residual field and no triggering or maybe try a non magnetic bolt...
Is there enough current in the 12v feed/trigger wire to the injectors to work a standard battery powered inductive timing light ?

[mr bucketracer]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/zPEbv3DlGh0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


290165

Crecy Engine and 15,000rpm, I want one.some where around i have the cut away pics of a flat twin 125cc sliding sleve race engine 38 odd hp , can't lay my hands on it )-: maybe husaberg could find it (-:

[husaberg]

some where around i have the cut away pics of a flat twin 125cc sliding sleve race engine 38 odd hp , can't lay my hands on it )-: maybe husaberg could find it (-:

What am i a librarian:wacko:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130455718&highlight=125cc+sleeve+valve#post1130455718
probably around here somewhere that's when we were talking about them.

if you posted it it will be in your posts won't it you can search the stuff you linked as well?

was it the ken duckworth one?


Bar and Stroud was a popular sleeve valve engine to be fitted to the early motor cycles. such as Grindley pearless a make later made famous by one C.W.G (Bill) Lacey. (He used J.A.P conventional engines Though)
These engines were popular partly because of there almost silent operation.
unfortuantly it was never developed to the same extent as the multi cylinders used on the aeroplanes and and for cars.
This was also it the wiki article TZee quoted which i found interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleeve_valve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleeve_valve)



Most of these advantages were evaluated and established during the 1920s by Sir Harry Ricardo, possibly the sleeve-valve engine's greatest advocate. He conceded that some of these advantages were significantly eroded as fuels improved up to and during World War II and as sodium-cooled exhaust valves were introduced in high output aircraft engines.


Mike Hewland (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mike_Hewland&action=edit&redlink=1) with his assistant John Logan, and Keith Duckworth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Duckworth) experimented with a single-cylinder sleeve-valve test engine when looking at Cosworth DFV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosworth_DFV) replacements. Hewland claimed to have obtained 72 hp (54 kW) from a 500 cc single-cylinder engine, with a specific fuel consumption (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_specific_fuel_consumption) of 170 gr/HP/hr -.45 to .39 lb/hp/hr-, the engine being able to work on creosote (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creosote), with no specific lubrication supply for the sleeve, just the sleeve driving mechanism requires an specially devoted lubrication. Hewland reported also that the highest temperature measured in the cylinder head didn't exceed 150 °C, sleeve temperatures were around 140 °C, T was 270 °C in the center of cylinder and 240 °C in the edge.

A recent SAE paper deals with a high-speed, small-displacement sleeve-valve engine, calculated, but not experimentally shown, to have a higher SFC than the poppet-valve alternative, a non-surprising result, considering the difficulty in obtaining the high intake and exhaust overlap that very fast-running engines require, additional work compares two different side-opening intake strategies for sleeve-valve engines.

[Flettner]

It's a bit of a long shot but I just would like to have a go at testing a sleeve valve unit.
The piston now will get an easier life with no exhaust to control and no exhaust wash across its edge. Piston can be short as it does not have to cover an exhaust port any more. System total friction will increase but piston to sleeve friction should decrease as they are both moving together ( at different rates ) also nitride is slippery. Material choice for the casting may play a part ( silicon content ) at first I will make it in CC601 just because thats what we use for our gearbox housings. I do have a little LM13 ( 9% silicon I think ) in ingot laying around somewhere, probably in my storage facility ( the old cowshed out the back of the neighbours farm ). Yes if it was such a good idea why has it not been done before ( in small crankcase twostrokes )? I might find the answer to that when we test it, sometimes interesting results pop up that no one predicted. And yes there will be lugs on the side ( transfers ) to fit injectors, perhaps not at the start but if all works well EFI will be the next step.
The real reason I'm so interested is this engine will not need an expensive nickasil bore, nitriding the sleeve is cheap, bore will just need to be machined aluminium.

[TZ350]

... verifying the timing of the injection end point.

From looking at the various Voltages I can see that the injector is pulsed by momentarily grounding one side, this applys 12V across it, (otherwise both sides are at the same potential, 12V).

Ok I was right about that.


290181


Fuel Injector Circuit.

290180

I want to see when the injector is pulsed so it looks like the trick will be to take a signal from between the fuel injector and mossfet injector driver.

And feed it to the Ignitecs ignition trigger input then I can use a timing light in the conventional way to see where its all happening.

[mr bucketracer]

no mr husaberg , i have it in a book somwhere but seen you are the master of finding stuff on the net you could kind of go looking lol

[Flettner]

Many years ago when the uniflow appeared at the Ohakea GP, racing was halted because someones ignition was upsetting the tower transmitting. New Zealand was held defenceless for an hour while we all had to ride past the tower one by one to see who was the calprit. What you see here was the problem, my home made CDI. You would not want to touch it when it's running, it will jump 4"
This is what I've been using, set up as you see it, to strobe the injection timing on the Kawasaki. The little coil you can see has terminals that pluged in series to the injector coils. One polarity would see the magnetic field as the coils energised and the other polarity would see the field decay as the injectors are tuned off, magnetic coupling. Rough and ready but it works well when you don't have an oscilloscope.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4488_zps93c3cac2.jpg

[F5 Dave]

Ahh, that was you?

[Drew]

Ok I was right about that.

I want to see when the injector is pulsed so it looks like the trick will be to take a signal from between the fuel injector and mossfet injector driver.

And feed it to the Ignitecs ignition trigger input then I can use a timing light in the conventional way to see where its all happening.Didn't this get dicussed in the ignitec thread?

I thought everything switched injectors and coils through earth? I haven't looked into it, but I figured that since a charge takes time to build, it's the economical way to do it.

Might just be me seeing things wrong like normal though.

[twotempi]

Were they louder or quieter than a conventional engine?


the Crecy engine had the reputation of being the most noisy engine ever created.

But the exhausts discharged straight to atmosphere via stubs - similar to Merlin or Griffon.

Probably a bit hard to accomodate 12 expansion chambers within the frontal area of a WW2 fighter aircraft. Projected HP was 4000 + after development where the Merlin was about 1650 HP ( I think )

[TZ350]

Didn't this get dicussed in the ignitec thread?

I thought everything switched injectors and coils through earth?

Yes, that was power jet solenoids and other things that the Ignitec switches, now I have just learned that the Ecotrons EFI does it this way too with the injectors.

Like most people I am used to flicking the switch and applying power to something to make it work, like a light, fridge, stove, electric motor, motorcycle head light, or just turning the bikes ignition on etc, in fact nearly everything you can think of.

Having something permanently live and then earthing it to make it work, that took me a moment or two to get my head around.

But it is how the Igni ignition and Ecotrons EFI do it with their peripherals. Maybe its the universal automotive electronic approach to such things but it was new to me and had me fooled for a bit (fooling me, OK so thats not so hard to do).

[Frits Overmars]

the Crecy engine had the reputation of being the most noisy engine ever created.Yes, two-strokes are unbeatable when it comes to making noise. And it's not hard to understand why: a poppet exhaust valve will open with an initial velocity of zero.
A piston-controlled exhaust port will open with the actual velocity of the piston which at that point may be about 1,5 times the average piston speed. Guess who creates the sharpest exhaust pulse.
Sleeve valves too will open the exhaust port with a larger-than-zero initial speed.
As for the four-stroke: there is one engine that can keep up with two-stroke noise: the Wankel. It too has a >0 exhaust opening speed.

[Drew]

Yes, that was power jet solenoids and other things that the Ignitec switches, now I have just learned that the Ecotrons EFI does it this way too with the injectors.

Like most people I am used to flicking the switch and applying power to something to make it work, like a light, fridge, stove, electric motor, motorcycle head light, or just turning the bikes ignition on etc, in fact nearly everything you can think of.

Having something permanently live and then earthing it to make it work, that took me a moment or two to get my head around.

But it is how the Igni ignition and Ecotrons EFI do it with their peripherals. Maybe its the universal automotive electronic approach to such things but it was new to me and had me fooled for a bit (fooling me, OK so thats not so hard to do).
Wasn't being a smart arse. Intentionally at least.

It's how everything works in modern engine management I think.

On a side note, my GL145 switches everything through earth. Lights, indicators, the lot. It's better for some reason, but I can only guess why.

[speedpro]

Ahhh! The good ol' days. I built my own CDI as well and it threw a wicked FAT blue spark. Definitely something you were careful around, even after you turned it off. Quite handy having a whole Avionics bay at your disposal with all the gear.

[koba]

Ahhh! The good ol' days. I built my own CDI as well and it threw a wicked FAT blue spark. Definitely something you were careful around, even after you turned it off. Quite handy having a whole Avionics bay at your disposal with all the gear.

Any tips on this?

I've not had much luck getting a Jaycar kit one going well.
It's OK to a point but stops working at 10,000 rpm.

I've tried up to from .47 - 3 uF in the main capacitors but it doesn't seem to make much difference.
I guess the triggering side might be a bit shit. What did you use to switch it?

[koba]

Funny where youtube surfing can lead one, this is where I ended up the Crecy vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKHz7wOjb9w

[TZ350]

Wasn't being a smart arse. Intentionally at least.

Didnt think you were.


It's how everything works in modern engine management I think.

Modern to me was a Morris Minor so EFI is a new experience, just taking me a bit of time to catch up.


On a side note, my GL145 switches everything through earth. Lights, indicators, the lot. It's better for some reason.

OK now I have learn t something else today .... will it ever end.

[TZ350]

Ok started to figure it out.

290204

Spent sometime tonight trying to figure out why there was no signal at the injector. Then realized that at TPS = zero the injection map is = to zero ... :facepalm: ... so bumped the first line up to 100 and bingo the injectors were firing.

This will most probably have been why my solenoid and trigger coil lash up did not work.

It would not have been a problem if I had of cranked the throttle open a bit.

290203

Put a resistor across the injector plug and connected the switched side to the Ignitecs trigger input. Now I have sparks triggered by the firing of the injector. The only issue is that the spark occurs at the start of the injection event.

Still its progress.

[koba]

Great link:
http://www.motelek.net/
There are a lot of diagrams of inside ignition units.

[speedpro]

Ok started to figure it out.

290204

Spent sometime tonight trying to figure out why there was no signal at the injector. Then realized that at TPS = zero the injection map is = to zero ... :facepalm: ... Still its progress.

My TPS map is the same, but, the load weighting table points to the MAP table at very low revs so it doesn't matter.

[Drew]

Didnt think you were.



Modern to me was a Morris Minor so EFI is a new experience, just taking me a bit of time to catch up.



OK now I have learn t something else today .... will it ever end.Oh Christ. Don't think of a Morri when working with electrics. As a lad of 10 or 12, I nearly set my mothers one on fire not realising the stupid positive earth thing!

[Flettner]

What was it, Lucus, the prince of darkness.

[Flettner]

:msn-wink:
Yes, two-strokes are unbeatable when it comes to making noise. And it's not hard to understand why: a poppet exhaust valve will open with an initial velocity of zero.
A piston-controlled exhaust port will open with the actual velocity of the piston which at that point may be about 1,5 times the average piston speed. Guess who creates the sharpest exhaust pulse.
Sleeve valves too will open the exhaust port with a larger-than-zero initial speed.
As for the four-stroke: there is one engine that can keep up with two-stroke noise: the Wankel. It too has a >0 exhaust opening speed.

I should imagine some of the Crecy's noise was due to the level of super charge.
I'll bet that FOS cylinder generates one hell of an exhaust pulse, lots of port time area. I didn't like the FOS at first but the more I think about it the better it "sounds". I do worry about the sleeve port opening time area, sleeve is slower than the piston but there is more area being opened. Sleeve drive mechanisim might be too simple Frits:msn-wink:

[jasonu]

Yes, two-strokes are unbeatable when it comes to making music.

Fixed it for ya...

[jasonu]

Funny where youtube surfing can lead one, this is where I ended up the Crecy vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKHz7wOjb9w

Cooler than a Bucket.:first::devil2:

[Flettner]

The beads and bondi fill are spreading.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4490_zps987b0fc3.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4489_zps8e1232bf.jpg

[TZ350]

290222

A great day for the 2013 Two-Hour Moto4 (Bucket) race.

290221

The Team were keen.

290223

Av and Glen posted good super pole times, 29.297 (ant clockwise).

290220

The winners were Dave and Nathaniel Diprose father and son team on their quick little 2-stroke with at least 20 consecutive laps in the 29's.

Av and Glen finished second on the Team ESE machine from the Dark Side.

290219

The hard luck prize has to go to Gavin, running second for most of the race until five minutes from the end when the metal termites ate their way out of the crankcase.

290218

[TZ350]

290224

Another good Team showing was Rick52 and Henk, fifth.

290225

The line up for the start.

290226290227290228

The tyres got a good workout.

290229

There were a lot of smart looking bikes.

[speedpro]

Any tips on this?

I've not had much luck getting a Jaycar kit one going well.
It's OK to a point but stops working at 10,000 rpm.

I've tried up to from .47 - 3 uF in the main capacitors but it doesn't seem to make much difference.
I guess the triggering side might be a bit shit. What did you use to switch it?

Triggering side would be my guess, some sort of pulse width problem, or . . . . . . mybe it's some sort of default rev limiter. Something that limits the rate the input resets ready for the next trigger. Look for an RC circuit controlling a latch.
I used the original Suzuki AC50 points to trigger the CDI through a debounce circuit. We ran it up in the bay using a signal generator and upped the speed until the capacitor charge pulses looked like a picket fence on the scope, it drew about 10A from the power supply. The output didn't drop 1v. Spark rate was equivalent to a V8 at 16,000rpm if I remember.

[husaberg]

Someone once said the Oval piston NR500 sounded exactly like a two stroke v4 500 as it was revving 2x the speed and the frequency was the same never heard one so not sure come to think of it never seen let alone herd a nr750.


Huh? How could a four stroke NR500 ever sound like a two stroke NSR? If any thing it would sound like 2 VFR400's :scooter:


I guess because it was because it was running at 22-28000rpm depending on who you ask fredy say 22 some net stuff says way more 28 .
It still only had four cylinders . I just assume its a frequency and pitch thing.Or it could be crap I don't really know. Not sure of the firing order they ran or the pipe configeration either.The valves I would think would take the sharpness out too maybe this is less with a 8 valve head. Crikey I don't know, but a cbr250 at 18000 don't sound like a nsr250 at 9000 either.I looked on the net and can find nothing about the sound of it other than most resembled a nr500. Maybe try playing a audio of V four for victory at 2x speed as an experiment as the NR500's are a bit thin on the ground around here. Mine needs a rebore but I cant find any o/s rings for it. The Honda dealer says........:blink:
http://world.honda.com/MotoGP/history/NR500/
http://world.honda.com/MotoGP/history/NSR500/index.html



Yes, two-strokes are unbeatable when it comes to making noise. And it's not hard to understand why: a poppet exhaust valve will open with an initial velocity of zero.
A piston-controlled exhaust port will open with the actual velocity of the piston which at that point may be about 1,5 times the average piston speed. Guess who creates the sharpest exhaust pulse.
Sleeve valves too will open the exhaust port with a larger-than-zero initial speed.
As for the four-stroke: there is one engine that can keep up with two-stroke noise: the Wankel. It too has a >0 exhaust opening speed.
Vindication 500 pages later lol.
Not much sounds better than a two stroke coming onto the pipe.

While i was on the Honda site i seen this......
http://thekneeslider.com/images/2011/08/exlink-engine-components.jpg
http://world.honda.com/powerproducts-technology/exlink/

[mr bucketracer]

thats a bugger about Gavin's bike , guess thats why i hate big race's

[F5 Dave]

We'll congratulations Dave and Nat. Dave probably has more 2hr wins at mt wgtn than any other man for sure.

[koba]

Triggering side would be my guess, some sort of pulse width problem, or . . . . . . mybe it's some sort of default rev limiter. Something that limits the rate the input resets ready for the next trigger. Look for an RC circuit controlling a latch.
I used the original Suzuki AC50 points to trigger the CDI through a debounce circuit. We ran it up in the bay using a signal generator and upped the speed until the capacitor charge pulses looked like a picket fence on the scope, it drew about 10A from the power supply. The output didn't drop 1v. Spark rate was equivalent to a V8 at 16,000rpm if I remember.

Cheers, beginning the mental digestion...

[F5 Dave]

We'll try the RS ign on weds or thurs and if it doesn't rev further then you'll know. Otherwise yeah maybe look at the trigger CCT and reduce C. Heck we should even get a rev reading, cause that ign is so noisy the dyno went deaf.

[wax]

The beads and bondi fill are spreading.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4490_zps987b0fc3.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4489_zps8e1232bf.jpg

Im loving this so much

[andrew a]

Well done to Dave and Nathaniel. Hard luck to Gavin. Good to see Av doing some laps also.

[TZ350]

290271

Hi Rob
The results of the 2013 AMCC bucket 2 hour race from yesterday.
A new record number of laps & an amazing stat of an average lap time of 29.93 for a whole hour of racing by winner Nathanael Diprose. That’s faster than everybody else’s superpole time except for Avalon’s.
Regards,

<tbody>
David Diprose



</tbody>

[TZ350]

290287

OK ... once I realized why I was not getting any sparks, and that was because the Alpha-N map was zero at TPS zero.

I added a small value (0.305) in three of the top left fields and bingo there was spark.

290286

The next move tonight was to try the lash up Flettner suggested, and yes I still had sparks and by switching the leads plugged into the injector socket I could easily figure out which was the injector energizing and shut off points.

290288

Reduced the injector pulse width as small as possible.

290289

And now I can setup the injector close point and with the timing light I can clearly see where the injection events are happening on the flywheel.

Maybe tomorrow night I will have time to see if this actually runs. .... :eek:

[koba]

We'll try the RS ign on weds or thurs and if it doesn't rev further then you'll know. Otherwise yeah maybe look at the trigger CCT and reduce C. Heck we should even get a rev reading, cause that ign is so noisy the dyno went deaf.

Oh, it revs further; no doubt.

Can't wait to see if it tests as good as it felt up the road.

[bucketracer]

The 2 Hour and the team of Hugh Trenhome & David Hall on number 12 demonstrate how not to do it.

290310

Even managed some fast times with a best of 29.988

290309

But all over the place and kept falling off.

In the end they only managed 152 laps while nearly everyone else did over 200 with the pointy end over 230.

Anyone can ride loose, the real trick is to be smooth, go fast and stay on.

Being abusive to the people running the meeting was not that clever either.

All round it was a display of dumb and dummer.

[TZ350]

Hi Rob
A new record number of laps & an amazing stat of an average lap time of 29.93 for a whole hour of racing by winner Nathanael Diprose. Regards.
David.

The display put on by number 12 made Nathanaels winning style look realy good.

[Drew]

Anyone can ride loose, the real trick is to be smooth, go fast and stay on.

It is much much easier to teach a fast rider not to fall off, than it is to teach a slow rider how to go fast.

[koba]

It is much much easier to teach a fast rider not to fall off, than it is to teach a slow rider how to go fast.

Haha, that's the common wisdom but no-one ever managed with you, eh?

:Pokey: :laugh:

[Drew]

Haha, that's the common wisdom but no-one ever managed with you, eh?

:Pokey: :laugh:
I'll blame that I didn't have a teacher.

[senso]

Question to the gurus(and the non gurus as well).
Is there any reason(besides probably a better center of gravity and more compact engine), to have the cylinders almost parallel to the ground?
All the racing engines, or almost all have very inclined cylinders, for example the rsa, tz, honda rs, kreidler van veen, all have cylinders that are parallel to the ground or very close to that.
Maybe a straighter exhaust?

[Frits Overmars]

All the racing engines, or almost all have very inclined cylinders, for example the rsa, tz, honda rs, kreidler van veen, all have cylinders that are parallel to the ground or very close to that. Maybe a straighter exhaust?Or maybe new glasses, Senso :cool:? The Van Veen Kreidler does have a horizontal cylinder, but from a technical viewpoint it is a dinosaur. The Honda RS125 and Aprilia RSA125 cylinders are nowhere near parallel to the ground.

[senso]

Near parallel was an exaggeration, sorry :/
So its purely about packaging the engine the best way possible.
But they are still more slanted than a lot of street engines, like the cr's, or the gas gas engines, or the ktm''s, etc, you get the idea.

[monkeyfumi]

Near parallel was an exaggeration, sorry :/
So its purely about packaging the engine the best way possible.
But they are still more slanted than a lot of street engines, like the cr's, or the gas gas engines, or the ktm''s, etc, you get the idea.

Which are all dirt bike engines...

[F5 Dave]

bearing in mind CRs, KTMs & GasGas have 21" front wheels with lots of travel. Well mine does anyway.

[monkeyfumi]

Husaberg (the company) had an interesting take on this a few years ago
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2007/11/09november07_2009_husaberg_450fe/

[136kg136ps]

The more upright orientation will help protect the fragile bits.

I'm sure the COG plays a part with the higher suspension travel.

To a certain degree it is likely also a design holdover that engineers saw no advantage to change or certainly we'd have seen .....Honda trying some halfarsed horizontal cylinder and forcing everyone else to use them.

[Yow Ling]

Maybe Flettner can help here, what is a good material to use to make a mould of existing transfers in a cylinder ?
What do you use to glue sand cores together? Maniseal?

That's all for today

[Drew]

Maybe Flettner can help here, what is a good material to use to make a mould of existing transfers in a cylinder ?
What do you use to glue sand cores together? Maniseal?

That's all for todayThat sorta raises a question of it's own. How the hell are you going to get them out?

[Yow Ling]

That sorta raises a question of it's own. How the hell are you going to get them out?

that's kinda like the "how did you get a baby out of there"question

[husaberg]

I linked vimamold a few pages back.......
Vinamold

http://fibreglassshop.co.nz/products/view/5/48/meltable-vinyl

[Drew]

that's kinda like the "how did you get a baby out of there"questionNot really. Cylinders aren't overly stretchy or flexible in my experience.

Are you gonna cut it off, or have I missed something entirely like normal?

[husaberg]

Not really. Cylinders aren't overly stretchy or flexible in my experience.

Are you gonna cut it off, or have I missed something entirely like normal?

the Vimold is rubbery think abutt it.......

[Flettner]

I use something rubbery, yes thats it Husaberg, vimamould that's what it's called. Heat it in a pot to about 170 C then pour into a pre prepared port. I use teflon spray down the port first ( after cleaning the surface ) . Put a slug down the cylinder to stop the rubber flowing out, and lastly insert a coach screw ( or somthing like it ) into the rubber as it sets. There is a lot of shinkage as the rubber solidifies so keep pouring. When cool just pull the rubber port copy out.

[Flettner]

SVC cylinder is getting close, now the slow finnishing process, painting and sanding. Still have to sort out round the exhaust.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4498_zpsf6d119dc.jpg

And around the water core prints, this is where the cooling water will be directed into the cylinder.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4497_zpsa8ca1c6f.jpg

Top four screw lugs are for holding the head water jacket on only, not the head itself.

[Flettner]

Cheated a bit today, I 3D machined this core box in aluminium. The wood one could be used no problem but I've found that cores , like the water one, that have a lot of exposed surface area to the molten aluminium can cause venting trouble. Cores made in a hot mould ( shell moulding sand ) are far better at venting hot gases out through the core prints and not into the molten aluminium.
Off to the foundry this weekend but I don't think I'll get this cylinder cast, still needs a few nights of finishing and tidying, I'm just concentrating on the 360 cases. Probably take a day off next week and have crack at it.


http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4499_zpsa9adc16e.jpg

[Yow Ling]

I use something rubbery, not sure what it's called? Heat it in a pot to about 180 C then pour into a pre prepared port. I use teflon spray down the port first ( after cleaning the surface ) . Put a slug down the cylinder to stop the rubber flowing out, and lastly insert a coach screw ( or somthing like it ) into the rubber as it sets. There is a lot of shinkage as the rubber solidifies so keep pouring. When cool just pull the rubber port copy out.

It sounds alot like the stuff Husaberg is talking about Vinamold, hotmelt , reusable. Thanks

[TZ350]

These molds of Flettners are getting very interesting, they advanced much quicker than I would have thought possible, I am looking forward to seeing the casting.

[TZ350]

Well, after 20 liters of fuel and hours on the dyno I am not a lot closer to having a running EFI setup.

But I have started to learn how to recognize one or two of the symptoms displayed by things that may be wrong.

290374

The teller for an injector that is to big, is that FUELPW1 will drop to some minimum like 2ms in the lower TPS/RPM ranges and seem to be stuck there and the engine continues to run rich, however much the map values are changed. If lowering the map values does not reduce the mixture then the injector is probably already running as slow as it can.

You can change the minimum pulse width but the rule of thumb is that 2ms is the minimum energized pulse width for properly opening an injector for repeatable results. If the injector is only a little bit big and things are desperate You can go lower 1.75 - 1.5 but 1ms like I have entered in my advanced calibration fields for injector 1 and 2, turns out to be way to short, as the injector just does not have enough time to open properly.

When running staged injectors where the system swaps from a smaller one to a larger one as the load increases and the swap over is not clean then the issue is sizing the injectors in the advanced calibration file. You would think that entering the so called factory data would be enough.

But the factory data seems more a guide than a fact and some experimenting with the static-flow-rate number is needed to get a smooth crossover. Making the number bigger will lean out the fuel and smaller will make it richer as the CPU will think it is a smaller injector and hold it on for longer.

At the other end of the RPM range the problem can be the minimum-injector-pulse-break-time which defines how long the injectors must be off for. And is used to force the change over to injector 2 but it acts on both injectors and if your not careful it can be so wide that injector 2 can't stay on long enough at high RPM to deliver enough fuel. The teller is that the FUELPW2 has stopped increasing or could actually be decreasing as RPM goes up and increases to the fuel map at high RPM does not increase the fuel being delivered.

Well I feel as though I have learnt a lot but I still have not got the dam thing running properly, guess I will just have to open another 20 Liter can of gas and spend a few more evenings after work on the dyno.

[wobbly]

Have just returned from taking away the Americas Cup of Karting in Vegas.
We dominated/won S4 = Senior Stock Moto with over 80 entries, the locals very unhappy about being dicked by a first timer foreigner in the class,Matt Hamilton from ChCh
One thing I learned was that they are now " addicted " to reading the data logger.
I concentrated on the piston crown and plug reading combined with a weather station and chased the jetting every heat,and we won most of them.
The data is perfect for getting gearing and chassis setup nailed with the on board accelerometers, and is what we use here as well.
But the data they use includes an O2 sensor ( in the muffler ) and is dead reliable, so I bought a kit for my dyno.
Will let you guys in on how it goes and the relevance of the readings Vs on track performance.
One thing they got very wrong was trying to get good AFR numbers, all the time.
My approach was that on the stand, with no load, the motor should be able to react instantly to full throttle from idle.
The logic being that going into the apex on zero throttle the usual next action is to floor it, with almost zero initial airspeed over the nozzle.
To get this to work the idle circuit must be well over rich and act like an accelerator pump in a 4T would.
This gives instant response off turns, and was a big part of the overall jetting strategy to win going away in the final.

[Grumph]

Well done Wob.

Matthew is a very underrated pedaller - from observation, if you give him the right gear, set up well, he's world class.

and you obviously gave him the right setup.

[TZ350]

Good stuff Wob.....

[TZ350]

290411

Half the point of EFI was to get away from having to have a selection of jets but it looks like I am building up a collection of injectors instead.

290412

This time I am going asymmetric with the smaller number one injector for start up and low end running in the left hand transfer and the bigger of the two secondary injectors in the rear boost port and the smaller of the two secondarys in the right hand transfer on the rotary valve side.

Under WOT and full power I am aiming to have all three injectors pumping and for starting and trickling around it will be running only on the smallest and most sheltered injector.

Anyway, all changed over and ready for another session to see how this setup goes and if we can get it any closer to being dialed in.

[Flettner]

Well I feel as though I have learnt a lot but I still have not got the dam thing running properly, guess I will just have to open another 20 Liter can of gas and spend a few more evenings after work on the dyno.

You should be so lucky, the F9 used to drink 200L drums of ethanol. I think it thought I had my own private still.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4500_zps93b80918.jpg

A couple of sand cores from the alloy die. These will be used in the moulding /casting next week.
Black stuff is carbon from the accetylene tourch, good non stick surface.
You can see how the core prints ( sticky out bits ) will hold the sand core in position to allow metal to flow around the core. When the metal has solidified the sand bond is destoyed and the sand pours out of the holes left behind by the core prints, leaving a water cooling cavity. You will see.

[wax]

My approach was that on the stand, with no load, the motor should be able to react instantly to full throttle from idle.
The logic being that going into the apex on zero throttle the usual next action is to floor it, with almost zero initial airspeed over the nozzle.
To get this to work the idle circuit must be well over rich and act like an accelerator pump in a 4T would.
This gives instant response off turns, and was a big part of the overall jetting strategy to win going away in the final.

You try and explain that to the jetski guys and they tell you reverse jetting doesnt work. Its awesome. lots of timing and lot of fuel = massive hit off the bottom.

[speedpro]

If you can start it cold without the "choke" you're off in the right direction I reckon.

[Frits Overmars]

Have just returned from taking away the Americas Cup of Karting in Vegas. We dominated/won S4 = Senior Stock Moto with over 80 entries, the locals very unhappy about being dicked by a first timer foreigner in the class,Matt Hamilton from ChChCongrats, Wob.
One thing they got very wrong was trying to get good AFR numbers, all the time. My approach was that on the stand, with no load, the motor should be able to react instantly to full throttle from idle.During my visit to the Ignitech headquarters (remember the picture of the Warshaw pact bunker?) there was a very nicely-built V-6 prototype bike for which the Ignitech people had just finished mapping the injection. I was invited to turn the throttle and, mean bastard that I am, I cracked it wide open in a split second a couple of times. Each time the bike reacted with a bang and a blue flash out of the mufflers. The Czechs looked less than happy and I had to comfort them by saying that no-one would ever do that with a 200 HP bike in gear.

[Frits Overmars]

290412
This time I am going asymmetric with the smaller number one injector for start up and low end running in the left hand transfer and the bigger of the two secondary injectors in the rear boost port and the smaller of the two secondarys in the right hand transfer on the rotary valve side. Under WOT and full power I am aiming to have all three injectors pumping and for starting and trickling around it will be running only on the smallest and most sheltered injector.TeeZee, it seems to me as if the spray from the outer injectors will hit the cylinder sleeve almost immediately. I fear that the fuel droplets will combine into large drops before they have had a chance to mix with the airflow.

[TZ350]

TeeZee, it seems to me as if the spray from the outer injectors will hit the cylinder sleeve almost immediately. I fear that the fuel droplets will combine into large drops before they have had a chance to mix with the airflow.

It has run with a right hand and central injector so there is hope but I share your concern.

[Frits Overmars]

It has run with a right hand and central injector so there is hope but I share your concern, and I am getting desperate.Desperate comes with the job, so you must be on the right track :p. I know the feeling: you think you have not achieved anything in weeks.
But when you look back on the past year, you'll find that you have in fact accomplished quite a lot.

[RAW]

Have just returned from taking away the Americas Cup of Karting in Vegas.
We dominated/won S4 = Senior Stock Moto with over 80 entries, the locals very unhappy about being dicked by a first timer foreigner in the class,Matt Hamilton from ChCh
One thing I learned was that they are now " addicted " to reading the data logger.
I concentrated on the piston crown and plug reading combined with a weather station and chased the jetting every heat,and we won most of them.
The data is perfect for getting gearing and chassis setup nailed with the on board accelerometers, and is what we use here as well.
But the data they use includes an O2 sensor ( in the muffler ) and is dead reliable, so I bought a kit for my dyno.
Will let you guys in on how it goes and the relevance of the readings Vs on track performance.
One thing they got very wrong was trying to get good AFR numbers, all the time.
My approach was that on the stand, with no load, the motor should be able to react instantly to full throttle from idle.
The logic being that going into the apex on zero throttle the usual next action is to floor it, with almost zero initial airspeed over the nozzle.
To get this to work the idle circuit must be well over rich and act like an accelerator pump in a 4T would.
This gives instant response off turns, and was a big part of the overall jetting strategy to win going away in the final.

Congrats Wobbly, I have a question though with the rich condition at zero throttle how does the pipe behave as I would have thought the rich mixture strength would exert a cooling effect upon the pipe and as such would slow it down to much ?

[Drew]

TZ, is it possible to simply lower your fuel rail pressure to stop the over fueling?

Rather than trying to make the injectors pulse shorter than they want to like.

[TZ350]

TZ, is it possible to simply lower your fuel rail pressure to stop the over fueling? Rather than trying to make the injectors pulse shorter than they want to like.

That is a good suggestions, thanks, I just might have to incorporate an adjustable fuel regulator.

My problem with the single injector is, that 2ms at 3-5,000rpm becomes way to long at 11-13,000 rpm and the injector needs to fire for more than 360 degrees. Like you suggest controlling the rail pressure might help.

An injector that is on for 2ms at 3k rpm (my idle speed), needs to be on for 8ms at 12k rpm or 576 degrees or 1.6 revolutions to more or less deliver the same amount of fuel per cycle. Not such a big problem for a 4T but a 2T.....

I have 360 degrees or 4.6ms to get everything done at 13,000 rpm. The transfers are open for only 130 degrees or 1.4ms at 13k. 2-3ms injection time means building up a cloud of rich mixture in the transfer duct before the transfers open, but not starting so early that the mixture gets lost in the crankcase leaving the current cycle lean and the following one rich.

Lean - Rich - Lean - Rich - Lean - Rich ...... the right amount of fuel over time but down on power each cycle.

For power, the answer is for each cycle to ingest all the fuel injected each time.

Which makes direct injection such a good idea but how they manage to do it in the very limited (< 1ms or 80 deg @ 14k) time available beats me.

[Drew]

That is a good suggestions, thanks, I just might have to incorporate an adjustable fuel regulator.

My problem with the single injector is, that 2ms at 3-5,000rpm becomes way to long at 11-13,000 rpm and the injector needs to fire for more than 360 degrees. Like you suggest controlling the rail pressure might help.

An injector that is on for 2ms at 3k rpm (my idle speed), needs to be on for 8ms at 12k rpm or 576 degrees or 1.6 revolutions to more or less deliver the same amount of fuel per cycle. Not such a big problem for a 4T but a 2T.....

I have 360 degrees or 4.6ms to get everything done at 13,000 rpm. The transfers are open for only 130 degrees or 1.4ms at 13k. 2-3ms injection time means building up a cloud of rich mixture in the transfer duct, but not starting so early that the mixture gets lost in the crankcase leaving the current cycle lean and the following one rich.

Lean - Rich - Lean - Rich - Lean - Rich ...... the right amount of fuel over time but down on power each cycle.

For power, the answer is for each cycle to ingest all the fuel injected each time.

Which makes direct injection such a good idea but how they manage to do it in the very limited (< 1ms 80 deg @ 14k) time available beats me.

Hmm. Low tech solutions are all my brain are capable of. I envisage a simple diaphragm that operates a needle valve that precedes the standard fuel rail regulator.

A piggy back controller in the injector circuit could be a timing solution. That's all a power commander is, I have one that's called a 'juice box'. It's a 'two brothers' product.

They're programmable separately to the ecu, it would double your range of adjustment. Something to think about anyway.

[wobbly]

The initial tuning run we did with the USA setup, Matt said it simply didnt light up off the slow turns - even though he felt, and the data showed it was way too short geared.
So I calculated to correct gear set ( 1/2 tooth off the rear ) and then set in on re jetting the carb.
On the data it was going to around 1220*F on the top ( though only overeving to 12300 in every gear ) and would drop the egt to 870* on the slow turns.
The AFR showed a lean spot at 15:1 on each gearchange blip ( we were the only people blipping the downchange - I insist its learned as it keeps the kart running straight under heavy trail braking to the apex ) and then
showed another lean spot as the throttle was punched.
With my new + 2 pilot sizes and the air screw at 1-1/2 as it should be , and lifted needle setting it would react flawlessly to full throttle from idle on the stand.
On track there was no lean spot on the blip and the egt only dropped to 820*, so not enough to affect the pipe badly.
From reading the plug and the piston we eventually hit 1280*F and this equated to 12.9 AFR when in the overev at 12600 in 6th gear.
With the new gearing and leaner top it gained 8Km/Hr, making late braking dives down the inside when in the shute to turn 1 way easy.

[Flettner]

Foundry day was successful, 360 cases cast. Need to tidy them up, send off to get heat treated ( CC601 ) to T6. Casting is to suit YZ 250T gearbox. This is the engine that will have the computer controlled throttle via the rotary valve timing gibb ( slide ). Will run on E85. Cases are water cooled via the cavity behind the RV and under the crank case where the engine mount runs. Reverse cylinder and crank rotation.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_9248_zps24fdfbd1.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_9242_zps6db2c426.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_9245_zps928c42f7.jpg

[TZ350]

This is a great project, please keep posting pictures as the machining progresses.

[TZ350]

290512

Mercury Racing Outboard


290511



6000-Series Arctic Cat 600 C-TEC2: Clean-Technology 2-Stroke Engine
The all-new 600 Clean-Technology 2-Stroke (or "C-TEC2" for short) is the first snowmobile engine designed engineered and produced by Arctic Cat.
It features a bunch of interesting technology like Dual-Stage Injection, unique open-window pistons, electronic oil metering and more, all of which reflects decades of engine design knowledge from the same Arctic Cat engineers who created the laydown engine, Exhaust Pipe Temperature Sensor and batteryless EFI.


290513

Dual-Stage Injection: At lower engine loads, the system injects fuel directly into the combustion chamber, on top of the piston. At higher engine loads fuel is also injected into the crankcase area and into the transfer ports, improving the fuel/air transfer time for added efficiency while also lubricating vital engine components

290515

Slotted Piston: The unique open-window/slotted piston design allows fuel/oil mix to be injected into the crankcase area and then into the transfer ports as part of the Dual-Stage Injection design. Key to this design is the injection of fuel (with oil) at the piston rod bearing.


290514
Fuel Injectors: Lightweight, low pressure Dual-Stage injectors feed fuel into both the combustion chamber, crankcase, and cylinder ports through the cylinder wall. Integrated with EPTS and APV exhaust valves, this clean-burning design helps the C-TEC2 600 achieve Tier III EPA regulations. The cylinder-mounted fuel injectors are supplied with 58-psi fuel pressure and are controlled by the fuel management system using variable injection timing and duration.

Electric Oil Pump: Controlled by the engine management system, an electric oil pump delivers the precise oil requirements, from engine idle to full-throttle, adjusting oil consumption from sea level to high altitude. Oil is injected into the air intake flanges and the fuel rail for full engine lubrication including the pistons.
Fuel oil ratios can be as high as 65:1 depending on load, which is why the C-TEC2 uses so little oil (and why the engine requires the oil formulated specifically for it).

Oil & Fuel Mix in the Rail: For maximum bearing life,a small amount of oil is delivered to the fuel rail and mixed with the fuel prior to injection. When the fuel is injected and travels through the piston skirt slot, the piston pin bearing receives added lubrication to ensure optimal bearing life even in the most extreme situations.
This is another key difference from high-pressure DI systems which require a return fuel loop back into the fuel tank, thus preventing oil from being injected into the rail (instead, oil is injected directly into the engine). The lack of oil lubrication via the fuel spray is a huge challenge for other systems.

Knock Sensor: An engine knock sensor detects detonation due to fuel octane, quality and/or ethanol content. Based on information from the knock sensor, the engine management system adjusts ignition timing and fuel delivery for optimum performance and combustion. If fuel quality is such that the combination of reduced engine timing and a richer fuel/air mixture can’t prevent detonation, the engine goes into safe mode until fuel quality improves. The engine is designed for 91 octane fuel.

Air-Only Throttle Bodies: Two 47-mm new-generation throttle bodies flow air into the crankcase. In addition to flowing only air (and not fuel), these throttle bodies are shorter and lighter than those used with previous engines.

[TZ350]

290519

Air Assisted Direct Injection Combustion System. Orbital Australia Pty. Ltd., based out of Perth, Western Australia, developed their Orbital Combustion Process that is based around their highly patented Air Assisted Direct Injection, also referred to as AADI. These injectors are similar to current fuel injectors in terms of operating pressure but also utilize compressed air (supplied by an air compressor) to further atomize the fuel, preparing it for the combustion process. This air-assist atomizes the fuel droplets down to 6-10 micron SMD, which is the industry benchmark. (SMD = Sauter mean diameter: a way of comparing the atomization performance of different injectors).



290520

A cross section of an Orbital/Synerject Air Assisted Direct Fuel Injector.
This technology is utilized by a host of Orbital licensees such as Aprilia’s DiTech engines, Mercury Marine’s OptiMax outboards, and Tohatsu’s TLDI outboards, which are all gasoline two-stroke applications. The application of this AADI to two-stroke engines changes the emissions and fuel consumption of these engines dramatically in a positive way. In fact, fuel consumption drops some 40 percent (giving parity with four-strokes) and emissions drop in the order of 80 percent over a carbureted two-stroke. This is not only due in part to the direct injection, but the fact that the injection only occurs after both intake and exhaust ports are covered by the piston, therefore, not allowing any raw air/fuel mixture to escape out of the exhaust port as it would have in a carbureted two-stroke.

290518


290517

Another key technology that the Hirth heavy fuel engines employs in these innovative engines is the use of carbon (graphite) pistons. These pistons have thermal expansion that is virtually nil and allow piston-to-cylinder wall clearances of 0.0005 compared with a typical 0.005 for aluminum pistons. The composite unit utilizes two piston rings, with the design intent of being utilized for centering purposes only. While being shown this remarkable piece of engineering, Jason Wright of Recreational Power Engineering www.RecPower.com (http://www.recpower.com/), U.S. distributor of Hirth-Engines as well as Powerfin Propellers (http://www.powerfin.com/), demonstrated that by dragging the skirt of the piston across a piece of paper, it left a mark just like a pencil!

[chrisc]

"The factory team"

Those nights working on the EFI 2T catching up with you Rob?

http://christophercain.cc/b/d/mtwellnov13/IMG_1938.jpg

[2T Institute]

Foundry day was successful, 360 cases cast. Need to tidy them up, send off to get heat treated ( CC601 ) to T6. Casting is to suit YZ 250T gearbox. This is the engine that will have the computer controlled throttle via the rotary valve timing gibb ( slide ). Will run on E85. Cases are water cooled via the cavity behind the RV and under the crank case where the engine mount runs. Reverse cylinder and crank rotation.

Balance shaft? Will they take a CR250 gearbox as you can get 6sp boxes for CR's now. Looks good Neil, got my emails back to now.

[Bert]

Foundry day was successful, 360 cases cast. Need to tidy them up, send off to get heat treated ( CC601 ) to T6. Casting is to suit YZ 250T gearbox. This is the engine that will have the computer controlled throttle via the rotary valve timing gibb ( slide ). Will run on E85. Cases are water cooled via the cavity behind the RV and under the crank case where the engine mount runs. Reverse cylinder and crank rotation.


:not::not:
Great work. This is very interesting.

Neil, would it be possible to show a couple more photos of the pattern of the 360 cases (maybe I missed them, I'll go back and look). Love the water pump configuration, being an integergral part of the crank assembility rather than an after thought on the side.

[Yow Ling]

All this foundry stuff is great, here is some more from Aus its car stuff but pretty interesting all the same
http://www.dmdaustralia.com.au/block.html

[TZ350]

"The factory team"
Those nights working on the EFI 2T catching up with you Rob?

290538

Yep ..... :laugh:


Here is a home foundry, 60L drum with rockwool lined inside. Burner is powered by Tellus and fueled by Ethanol ( with a hint of castor ). Crucible, ceramic type. Gravity is the fuel pump.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/H6107.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/H6118.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/H6117.jpg


Ready to pour, safety is my middle name! Fire is from magnesium powder poured onto the risers

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/H6110.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/H6135.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/H6139.jpg


The finished item

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/H6161_zps519e2ac4.jpg

Ready to fly

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/H6440.jpg


http://www.afsinc.org/about/content.cfm?ItemNumber=6898

http://www.afsinc.org/about/content.cfm?ItemNumber=8509

http://www.afsinc.org/about/content.cfm?ItemNumber=10443


"Waterglass" sodium silicate.
a decent chemist might have it the oldies used to use it for preserving eggs or something.
From what i understand it is possible to harden it by heating it in a dirty oven.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-BJQ-EwIXH30/UAcb_sxQPZI/AAAAAAAAALU/Va4BM2WjcmE/s1600/Sodium+silicate+002.jpg
http://www.metcast.com/index.php/sand-binder-systems/sodium-silicate-resins-hardeners/cms-sodasil-g.html


Add some to Budha's oil....

Potters us in in glazes (i think) most of the pottery supply places have it.
http://www.pottersclay.co.nz/rawmat.htm
http://www.cobcraft.co.nz/WebsiteImages/StudioTools/SodiumSilicate.jpg


His furnace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVebluN3MsQ&list=PL69F982076354AC97&index=4
the Muling and table set up which is bllody neat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZGq1zCl4yM&list=PL69F982076354AC97
K-bond sand (2 Stroke LOL)
http://castinghobbyfaq.bareboogerhost.com/kbond.shtml


Ah yes this list, plenty of good stuff here, the myfordboy and mr pete are great



The Myford boy and mrPete22 stuff is worth watching all the videos in the series


Cores etc

http://www.alloyavenue.com/vb/archiv...p/t-6993.html?
http://www.bronzecasting.co.uk/8_san...sodsil_11.html
http://www.imarketingcenter.com/coresand.html

materials

http://www.industrialsands.co.nz/order.html
http://www.industrialsands.co.nz/resin.html
http://www.metcast.com/index.php/cat...+Silicate+Core
http://www.cobcraft.co.nz/StudioTool...tegory=Liquids
http://www.cobcraft.co.nz/studiotool...tegory=Liquids
http://www.pottersclay.co.nz/rawmat.htm
http://www.ryanoresins.com/products/
How to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFLArEHFFHo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8DGkC8O9CY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-c4_Ukqgx4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG9JzeZYPi4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khEvhjlh_SM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQt2RBzepNA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tqDL7H-C-o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TekdQlmvkiU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCBRfrPV8BY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yosykQ-o994

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OedpFHYIkDA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzKi4g7jD6I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khEvhjlh_SM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt2mq...A7F5FD2D3C3088
http://castinghobbyfaq.bareboogerhost.com/kbond.shtml
http://home.comcast.net/~oddkins/foundrycasting.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rU2aohquj4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWGNl7ijA7g
Vinamold

http://fibreglassshop.co.nz/products...meltable-vinyl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZGq1...jAnn8E76KP7sQg


Equipment
http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/...emuller01.html
http://www.ecplabchem.co.nz/content....9-solution-1-l
http://www.foundry101.com/6.htm
http://www.budgetcastingsupply.com/index.htm

Furnace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqvWe...endscreen&NR=1
http://www.dansworkshop.com/2008/03/...ing-furnace-2/
http://www.submarineboat.com/casting...er_Pot_Furnace
http://www.flamingfurnace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=...ture=endscreen
http://myfordboy.blogspot.co.nz/p/my...s-furnace.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4SdKN-Kq58


The foundry or metal casting stuff thats been going on the the ESE thread really inspired me to get on with having a go at this stuff.
If you can cast metal theres really not much you cant do. I dont think its going to be easy, most of it has been a bit of 2 steps forward 1 step back so far.

Im actually an old hand at this I cast a sinker weight or a sandwich toaster when I was in 4th form metalwork, I suspect not much has changed in the last 35 years since then.

First I found myself a furnace, looks nice but with the burner it had was struggling to melt cheese, I now have a new burner with a gentle breeze from a small blower.


One of the first things I wanted to do was copy some parts to make moulds from, Husaberg put me onto a product called Vinamold its a rubbery hotmelt that feels a bit like silicone when at room temp but is a runny liquid at 160°C here my first stab at copying the transfers from a RG250 barrell

290811
How it arrives, I bought 1.5kg its reusable so if you screw up just throw it back into the pot and try again
290812

290813

290814

290815

290810
left over vinamold ready for next time


Heres the finished mould of the transfers
290820


290816
290817
the furnace with the new burner and blower

290818

Scrap pile with a ingot from the first sucessful melt

290819
Crucible made from a bit of pipe about 5" diameter


Yow Ling, have you lined your crucible with somthing? Ceramic coating? There is a paint on able one. Hot steel straight aginst molten aluminium is not good for the alloy. It does not take much iron to dissolve into the alloy to wreak it. The casting will then not respond to heat treatment. Ok if you are making trinkets but no good if you want sound, high strength engine parts. Also you will need to control your melt temps well, if the alloy is over heated it will burn off some of the alloying components and once again the casting will be left unservicable. Just a few things to concider.


The bag of sand ( in the picture ) is the shell moulding sand I talk about. It is suppiled with a resin coating, this bonds to itself at approx 180 degrees C. You will need a metal die for this ( and the wifes oven ). Some of my dies are made using the CNC but some are made by copying the wood / bondifill moulds into aluminium at the foundry, then turning them into dies. This works well although they do need a little cleaning up so the sand core will slide out easily. I have a few pictures, I'll round them up if you like.
The other stuff in the pictures is the casting resin, for pattern making. It is good because it doesn't shrink or expand as it sets. It uses two equal parts. It is expensive at $380 for what you see here, adding micro ballons makes it go a little further. I have tried other products but at the end of the day this stuff is worth the money!
Good on you for having a go, I posted these pictures of making a cylinder ( pattern making ) so others might have a go instead of trying to hack out old cylinders to make them what they never were ment to be. Having the ability to cast intricate parts ( cylinders ) changes the way you will approch projects.
You will need a temp probe, I made one useing a cheap meter I bought using I think type K wire. Put it inside a stainless steel tube with the bare wire sticking out the end. There is quite a bit to melting alloy properly as you will need degassing pills and a flux of some sort.
After we had the " incident " with our home foundry I decided it was better to be friends with a local foundry and let him melt the alloy for me, I just make the moulds and put them on the floor next to his moulds.
The white sand you see is CO2 hardening sand ( cold process ), just pack it in then apply CO2 gas and will harden up instantly. This sand is not as strong as the shell hot sand process but it's good for less inticate parts. I'm not sure what is mixed with the sand, Husaburg will know.



http://youtu.be/1YG9ko8-Nwk

TZ, the EFI YZ is getting used at trail rides, three now, trouble free.
Why are there not more EFI twostrokes out there? This bike is a lot of fun to ride. We are experimenting with injection timing changes, interestingly this changes the way the power is delivered.
So far a 14% fuel saving over my carbed YZ 250. Same track, same times, same rider. This must go to show there is less fuel spillage out the exhaust.

I am keen to see that ball valve working on your 125. I like the boost bottle idea, best way to beat that restriction so far.


http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_1257_zpsae1acc20.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_1256_zps74f40053.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_1258_zps5e0e3437.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_1260_zps7582374f.jpg

Just some random shots of uniflow cores and castings, this one is a 650cc
The cores are exhaust port and water cooling ( on the exhaust side ).


This is a porting tool!
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_1262_zps8cbdc61e.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_1263_zpsaf4c99ae.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_1264_zpsa91cbe31.jpg


http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_1265_zpse10cd291.jpg (http://s1056.photobucket.com/user/uniflow/media/IMG_1265_zpse10cd291.jpg.html)

First there was this


http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_1266_zps7dbad0e2.jpg (http://s1056.photobucket.com/user/uniflow/media/IMG_1266_zps7dbad0e2.jpg.html)

And then this


http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_1267_zps70ad45ad.jpg (http://s1056.photobucket.com/user/uniflow/media/IMG_1267_zps70ad45ad.jpg.html)

Then after pouring a mould I cut and changed the shape to the curve I wanted


http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_1268_zps6033ea3f.jpg (http://s1056.photobucket.com/user/uniflow/media/IMG_1268_zps6033ea3f.jpg.html)

Then a female mould made to make more replicas


http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_1270_zps660433dc.jpg (http://s1056.photobucket.com/user/uniflow/media/IMG_1270_zps660433dc.jpg.html)
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_1269_zps0517cc8c.jpg (http://s1056.photobucket.com/user/uniflow/media/IMG_1269_zps0517cc8c.jpg.html)
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_1271_zps5018d683.jpg (http://s1056.photobucket.com/user/uniflow/media/IMG_1271_zps5018d683.jpg.html)

The exhaust core is taking shape.


http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_1272_zps47817f2b.jpg (http://s1056.photobucket.com/user/uniflow/media/IMG_1272_zps47817f2b.jpg.html)

This mould will be the sand core eventually, so this shape will be replicated in hard sand.
Where you don't want metal, you need sand ( a core ). This is what's called a core box.
To build a pattern like this you start with the cores first.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_1275_zps3fae29f5.jpg (http://s1056.photobucket.com/user/uniflow/media/IMG_1275_zps3fae29f5.jpg.html)


Green stuff is bondi fill, just mix it up and press the part you want to copy into it. MUST wax the male part first.
White stuff is casting resin, two pot mix. Sets with a faithful size, no shrinkage or expansion.


http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4456_zps2d1ffdec.jpg (http://s1056.photobucket.com/user/uniflow/media/IMG_4456_zps2d1ffdec.jpg.html)
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4457_zpsb2266803.jpg

Cylinder mould building is slow, due to lack of time available. I had to change the main core mould to allow for these dimples to be made in the cylinder core. These are needed to fit ( glue ) the transfer cores to. Transfer cores not made yet. Evantually we want a hard sand core that looks like this.


http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4458_zps76c5e236.jpg


http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4460_zpsd7bd2e5e.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4461_zpsf93bf3f8.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4459_zpsc495cc02.jpg

The begining of the water core ( master ), this will be the same mould for top and bottom half, sand cores glued together in the mould.
Core prints need to be added to hold the core in place as the metal is pored. These will end up being the water inlet ports.
These are what " frost plugs" are on a car engine, not actually for frost, they are there to hold the water jacket sand core in place as the metal is poored around it. Also allows gas to escape as the air in the core expands as the hot metal is surrounding the sand core.
Orange things are air gun pellets, gives me a standard thickness on curved surfaces.


Enter the transfer port master and transfer core box.
Water core box next, then all will become clear, as to how it all fits together.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4463_zps119bff3c.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4462_zps16be5103.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4471_zpsbefe4eda.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4470_zps4ef4bc21.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4468_zps10a00436.jpg


Right, water core is done.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4476_zps6eb154e8.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4477_zps02fc085e.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4478_zpsd50547e8.jpg

And poured a cylinder resin core copy

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4472_zpsc02c5072.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4475_zps8ed4ad69.jpg

copies of the transfer port

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4480_zps17f30231.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4481_zps134e5778.jpg

Next I will be building the actual pattern, with these parts inside. Core prints will stick out of the final pattern ( thats all the tapered bits you can see on the ends of everything. It will become clear.

And all together

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4482_zpsce5c6f95.jpg


http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4484_zpsc5d38f1c.jpg

Starting to build the outside shape, beads and bondi fill. Beads are stuck on with a hot glue gun, real pattern makers don't use a hot glue gun, apparently. Or for that matter, plastic beads.


Ok, it was crapy glue anyway. I'm not sure is the real answer. I am concidering a YZ125 as a base but either way I'll need to re make the cases as the transfer port arrangement won't suit. Also I'm not sure anyone has noticed yet but this cylinder is not an FOS type, although it may look like it. There is an extra part I haven't shown yet, see below. Remember it's a uniflow scavange type, with one piston.

OK now I've shown the missing part, let the "debate" begin.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_1284_zpsbabecf1d.jpg (http://photobucket.com/)


It's a bit of a long shot but I just would like to have a go at testing a sleeve valve unit.
The piston now will get an easier life with no exhaust to control and no exhaust wash across its edge. Piston can be short as it does not have to cover an exhaust port any more. System total friction will increase but piston to sleeve friction should decrease as they are both moving together ( at different rates ) also nitride is slippery. Material choice for the casting may play a part ( silicon content ) at first I will make it in CC601 just because thats what we use for our gearbox housings. I do have a little LM13 ( 9% silicon I think ) in ingot laying around somewhere, probably in my storage facility ( the old cowshed out the back of the neighbours farm ). Yes if it was such a good idea why has it not been done before ( in small crankcase twostrokes )? I might find the answer to that when we test it, sometimes interesting results pop up that no one predicted. And yes there will be lugs on the side ( transfers ) to fit injectors, perhaps not at the start but if all works well EFI will be the next step.
The real reason I'm so interested is this engine will not need an expensive nickasil bore, nitriding the sleeve is cheap, bore will just need to be machined aluminium.


The beads and bondi fill are spreading.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4490_zps987b0fc3.jpg
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4489_zps8e1232bf.jpg


I use something rubbery, yes thats it Husaberg, vimamould that's what it's called. Heat it in a pot to about 170 C then pour into a pre prepared port. I use teflon spray down the port first ( after cleaning the surface ) . Put a slug down the cylinder to stop the rubber flowing out, and lastly insert a coach screw ( or somthing like it ) into the rubber as it sets. There is a lot of shinkage as the rubber solidifies so keep pouring. When cool just pull the rubber port copy out.


SVC cylinder is getting close, now the slow finnishing process, painting and sanding. Still have to sort out round the exhaust.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4498_zpsf6d119dc.jpg

And around the water core prints, this is where the cooling water will be directed into the cylinder.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4497_zpsa8ca1c6f.jpg

Top four screw lugs are for holding the head water jacket on only, not the head itself.


Cheated a bit today, I 3D machined this core box in aluminium. The wood one could be used no problem but I've found that cores , like the water one, that have a lot of exposed surface area to the molten aluminium can cause venting trouble. Cores made in a hot mould ( shell moulding sand ) are far better at venting hot gases out through the core prints and not into the molten aluminium.
Off to the foundry this weekend but I don't think I'll get this cylinder cast, still needs a few nights of finishing and tidying, I'm just concentrating on the 360 cases. Probably take a day off next week and have crack at it.


http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4499_zpsa9adc16e.jpg


You should be so lucky, the F9 used to drink 200L drums of ethanol. I think it thought I had my own private still.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4500_zps93b80918.jpg

A couple of sand cores from the alloy die. These will be used in the moulding /casting next week.
Black stuff is carbon from the accetylene tourch, good non stick surface.
You can see how the core prints ( sticky out bits ) will hold the sand core in position to allow metal to flow around the core. When the metal has solidified the sand bond is destoyed and the sand pours out of the holes left behind by the core prints, leaving a water cooling cavity. You will see.


Foundry day was successful, 360 cases cast. Need to tidy them up, send off to get heat treated ( CC601 ) to T6. Casting is to suit YZ 250T gearbox. This is the engine that will have the computer controlled throttle via the rotary valve timing gibb ( slide ). Will run on E85. Cases are water cooled via the cavity behind the RV and under the crank case where the engine mount runs. Reverse cylinder and crank rotation.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_9248_zps24fdfbd1.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_9242_zps6db2c426.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_9245_zps928c42f7.jpg


http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_0847_zpsedd4e18a.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_0845_zps9a60cc72.jpg

Patterns milled out on the CNC.
Reverse is via counter shaft ( gear drive ) also doubles as the ballance shaft.
Rob, Don't give up, it's the pain we all have to go through.


Frits, somtimes a balance shaft is a necessity, I would be frightened to even get off the ground with this engine before the balance shaft was fitted, now I'd be happy to fly all day.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_0493.jpg


Sand cores multipling in Claire's oven, as time permits, during the day when she is at work.
Copied the bondi fill transfer core box into metal at the foundry this week end, so now I can make hot sand cores. If I was interested in production I would have made a few more metal die copies but I probably will only ever need 12 transfer sand cores? One casting to machine up first and make mistakes on and the second "real" one.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4501_zpse2bb2990.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4464_zps6332b0cf.jpg


Grinding the sleeve, fixture has been made to hold the sleeve evenly all around.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4503_zps31f4827c.jpg


http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab102/GerbilGronk/Random%20Shots/IMG_9200_zpsa359c0a7.jpg (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/GerbilGronk/media/Random%20Shots/IMG_9200_zpsa359c0a7.jpg.html)
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab102/GerbilGronk/Random%20Shots/IMG_9195_zps49a0ee1c.jpg (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/GerbilGronk/media/Random%20Shots/IMG_9195_zps49a0ee1c.jpg.html)

This is what happens when Flettner has no freeview.


If the sleeve thing doesn't work, we will just lower the exhaust ports and re cast as an FOS cylinder.


Off to the foundry tomorrow

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4504_zpsc453af9f.jpg

Sleeve with piston. Sleeve ready for nitriding.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4508_zps1082cedc.jpg


Foundry day successful.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4509_zps4c86d653.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4510_zpsfba4e4a3.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4511_zps0fe7eb9d.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4512_zps5a352b9a.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4513_zps0229403a.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4514_zpsccd56315.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4516_zpsa6a8844e.jpg

From glue, beads and bodifill rubbish, to somthing usefull.


All I had time for tonight, four threads on top are not head studs. Both cylinders have been heat treated but I'll only machine one, untill there is a mistake!
This appears to be a very clean casting, must have had the risers ( feeders ) in the right place.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4521_zpsf0dc6d04.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4522_zpsab2b9e7d.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4520_zpscb34c218.jpg


http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4519_zps1b5dd691.jpg

Machining out the 360 cases. CC601 heat treated usualy machines well, shiny and hard.


All finished, just need a crank case and head to screw on.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4524_zps7104c784.jpg


CNC thread milled, also used the CNC to do the oval exhaust ports, where the chambers will fit.
I'm not sure what to do about the crank case? I either re manufacture ( copy in casting resin and re cast ) the original 125 cases or copy and change the the drawing of the 360 cases but make them a little smaller and shorter. Not bother with reversing engine rotation and just use the 250 gearbox and clutch. A bit of an over kill but it will then fit straight into the YZ250F frame I have lined up for these experimental engines. Also if it did in fact produce some power the bigger gearbox would not cause trouble. I would just use case reed as it's simple and quick ( for now ). I thought I might get into it today but still seem to have a lot of customers jobs hanging around that need to be finished before Christmas!



http://youtu.be/vKsJ2DU_3ZE


Possibly already shown this photo? The 360 cases ready to machine, heat treated to T6. right hand case is nearly finish machined now.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4507_zps5b74b494.jpg


http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4526_zpseb3f1fd4.jpg

Should find some cases for the sleeve cylinder in here somwhere.


http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4525_zps4b279c9c.jpg

Here is a sad looking 350 cylinder. The problem with using an original to copy from is the surface finish. You will need to polish the fins smooth, with no undulations as the taper is so slight that it takes very little of a blemish to hook up and break the sand copy ( mould ). Better off to build each fin layer by layer, that way its easy to access the surfaces as you build the pattern up. Note the gaps in the fins , these were always said to be there to aid cooling, crap, these are there to offer some support from sand fin to sand fin ( sand mould strength ). You just have to see things in reverse all the time, funny thing, I somtimes have trouble seeing things the right way round!


I hope the Germans dont steal your IP Flettner !

290928

[TZ350]

Tonights efforts.

290537

Red line is my best with a carb on this cylinder, Blue line is where I am at now with the EFI.

There must have been some software setting I was getting wrong.

I am not sure what happened, but for a couple of weeks we have been struggling with the map table and trying to get it to run well and all the time the Beast has been a fussy pig.

Not knowing what good looked like I struggled on with a bad setup.

In desperation I switched the second injector off in the software and the engine started to run realy good, not at all fussy and easy to change the map and best of all I could instantly go to WOT at 4kish and it would pull away without fuss until it ran out of injector time around 12.

Although the secondary injectors were switched off they still showed up on the gauges, no doubt the problem was something simple, I am sure Matt from Ecotrons will put me straight.

I was close to giving up, but once the Beast started to run and I saw how easy it was to make changes with the map table I have to say I am getting excited about EFI again.

[Frits Overmars]

... This is the engine that will have the computer controlled throttle via the rotary valve timing gibb ( slide ).Way to go Neil.

Reverse cylinder and crank rotation.How are you going to accomplish that? Teethed Belt?

[Flettner]

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_0847_zpsedd4e18a.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_0845_zps9a60cc72.jpg

Patterns milled out on the CNC.
Reverse is via counter shaft ( gear drive ) also doubles as the ballance shaft.
Rob, Don't give up, it's the pain we all have to go through.

[husaberg]

Neil the Honda NSR125 Balance shaft set up is real neat.
Design lends itself to a real neat idler shaft

[Frits Overmars]

Reverse is via counter shaft ( gear drive ) also doubles as the ballance shaft.A balance shaft is always a good idea, but putting your total power through the balance shaft's gear drive will lose you an unnecessary 5% of that total power
(which will heat up the cases, which will lose you still more power). And there is no need to run the crankshaft backwards because of your reversed cylinder.

[TZ350]

Rob, Don't give up, it's the pain we all have to go through.

It depresses me to think it took two weeks to twig to this but :-

I think I have fallen into a trap made by computer geeks.

290589

Where in the virtual world of computer programing the logical numbering system starts at 0 not 1 like in the world of real things.

Its like this because in the real world you can have nothing and 0 means nothing but in the computer world an array position always contains something even if its nothing ... :scratch: ...so 0 means the first position in a single dimension array, 1 is the second position and 2 is the third.

0,0 is the first position in a two dimensional array while 0,1 is the position next door and 1,0 is the other neighboring position to 0,0 and 1,1 is above 0,0 and between 1,0 and 0,1, nerd talk but you get the picture.

290585

Apparently Ecotrons allows for 3 injectors per cylinder.

And I am beginning to think you can see the first one in the main screen and the other two labelled injector 1 and injector 2 in the advanced calibrations screen.

It is starting to look like.

0 = injector 1 on the main screen or the first logical item in a 1 dimensional array of three elements
1 = injector 1 in the advanced calibration screen or the second logical item
2 = injector 2 in the advanced calibration screen for the third logical item

Geek World ... Real World

0 = 1
1 = 2
2 = 3

so

0 = real Injector 1
1 = real Injector 2
2 = real Injector 3
Its simple really ...... :wacko:

290582

So now I think I may have been confusing "logical" injector 1 with "real" injector 1, maybe logical injector 1 is actually real injector 2.

If this is the case it would explain the problems I have been having.

I have emailed Ecotrons support for clarification.

290586

If that is not the answer, I will just have to fall back on my refined problem solving skills.

Will let you know.

[twotempi]

There are only 10 kinds of people in the world.

Those that understand binary notation, and those that don't !!!

[TZ350]

There are only 10 kinds of people in the world.

Those that understand binary notation, and those that don't !!!

10 binary = 2 real ...... :laugh:

[twotempi]

It's very easy to remember

10 to the base 2 = 2 to the base 10

[Flettner]

Frits, somtimes a balance shaft is a necessity, I would be frightened to even get off the ground with this engine before the balance shaft was fitted, now I'd be happy to fly all day.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_0493.jpg

[Nickko]

290411

Half the point of EFI was to get away from having to have a selection of jets but it looks like I am building up a collection of injectors instead.

290412

This time I am going asymmetric with the smaller number one injector for start up and low end running in the left hand transfer and the bigger of the two secondary injectors in the rear boost port and the smaller of the two secondarys in the right hand transfer on the rotary valve side.

Under WOT and full power I am aiming to have all three injectors pumping and for starting and trickling around it will be running only on the smallest and most sheltered injector.

Anyway, all changed over and ready for another session to see how this setup goes and if we can get it any closer to being dialed in.

290611

Great dyno session on the FXR/FZR tonight. Mikuni TM33, Ross racing Piston and Kelford cams. Still a rough spot at 7000rpm, but likely to be exhaust length. 71 runs on the Dyno with a very patient Rob.

[TZ350]

290611
Still a rough spot at 7000rpm, but likely to be exhaust length.

I was impressed with your bike, it was very well put together.

A small adjustment to the exhaust length to see if it can be better balanced with the inlet tract is certainly worth a look, it will only be a matter of a few millimeters.

The air correction jet may be worth a look to, the rough spot was not so evident with the leaner main jets.

290619 originaly posted by Husaburg

A smaller air correction jet will not lean the main out as much at the top end of the rpm range. So by fiddling the air correction and main jet you may be able to lean the bottom off and keep the top rich.

[Bert]

290611

Great dyno session on the FXR/FZR tonight. Mikuni TM33, Ross racing Piston and Kelford cams. Still a rough spot at 7000rpm, but likely to be exhaust length. 71 runs on the Dyno with a very patient Rob.




A small adjustment to the exhaust length to see if it can be better balanced with the inlet tract is certainly worth a look, it will only be a matter of a few millimeters.

The air correction jet may be worth a look to, the rough spot was not so evident with the leaner main jet.

A smaller air correction jet will not lean the main out as much at the top end of the rpm range. So by fiddling the air correction and main jet you may be able to lean the bottom off and keep the top rich.

two cents for consideration.

Close, but looks rich on the pilot circuit, transfer onto the needle (~6.5k) seems to flood things then likely a little lean on WOT.
Try smaller pilot, slightly thicker needle and keep the main (go up if a size when hole is filled). I don't think dropping the needle will resolve that hole. Refine with the air circuit (just don't starve it at the bottom end).

[husaberg]

two cents for consideration.

Close, but looks rich on the pilot circuit, transfer onto the needle (~6.5k) seems to flood things then likely a little lean on WOT.
Try smaller pilot, slightly thicker needle and keep the main (go up if a size when hole is filled). I don't think dropping the needle will resolve that hole. Refine with the air circuit (just don't starve it at the bottom end).

Its a foul stroke guys leave it alone.
best bit of carb advice is you are both right, as they have overlapping circuits. personally that's why EI and similar carbs are intersting, because they don't.

this is one of the best bits i have seen.Cameron
http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=J7tQp2LtsYIC&pg=PA61&lpg=PA61&dq=Carbs+are+complex+because+of+their+overlapping+ kevin+cameron&source=bl&ots=qdU5EuhyxB&sig=ypUCl-6ePjegQmrw1WZLeuRB4Ko&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QpeaUpyhKYjoiAegyIHIAw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Carbs%20are%20complex%20because%20of%20their%20o verlapping%20kevin%20cameron&f=false

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, somtimes a balance shaft is a necessity, I would be frightened to even get off the ground with this engine before the balance shaft was fitted, now I'd be happy to fly all day. Neil, I am very much in favour of a balance shaft for almost any engine, regardless of cylinder capacity. What I was trying to say was:
If you just drive the balance shaft from the crankshaft, the gear friction will consume about 5% of the power needed to drive the balance shaft.
If you use the balance shaft as a counter shaft, that gear friction will consume about 5% of the total engine power.

[mr bucketracer]

290611

Great dyno session on the FXR/FZR tonight. Mikuni TM33, Ross racing Piston and Kelford cams. Still a rough spot at 7000rpm, but likely to be exhaust length. 71 runs on the Dyno with a very patient Rob.i would try a oko 30mm carb for starters . around a 118 jet , drop the needle one from centre , think your will a better base run before going to big in the carb, not a bad run anyway

[Flettner]

Frits, I might just have to suffer that loss, the reason for running the engine in reverse is handling related not engine related. The reverse cylinder is because I'm sick of dents in my chamber ( not put there by me I might add! ). The difference of 3 - 4 HP at around 70 - 75 total in an off road bike probably won't be noticed, well, certainly I can't use all that.

[richban]

290611

Still a rough spot at 7000rpm, but likely to be exhaust length. 71 runs on the Dyno with a very patient Rob.

That looks like your classic reversion hole at 7k for sure. I would be looking at the muffler more than length. Looks almost like it has some sort of reduction in the muffler. Or its a megaphone? I have sean plenty of graphs like that trying different exhausts on FXRs.

[Flettner]

Sand cores multipling in Claire's oven, as time permits, during the day when she is at work.
Copied the bondi fill transfer core box into metal at the foundry this week end, so now I can make hot sand cores. If I was interested in production I would have made a few more metal die copies but I probably will only ever need 12 transfer sand cores? One casting to machine up first and make mistakes on and the second "real" one.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4501_zpse2bb2990.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4464_zps6332b0cf.jpg

[Yow Ling]

Was given the job of custodian of this engine, aircooled rg125, it was built by Pete Jones, has run but needs some loving.
Should push all your aircooling buttons TZ. The cooling fins that look like the head are just cooling fins attached to the head beneath.
290665
290664
290663

[Yow Ling]

Sand cores multipling in Claire's oven, as time permits, during the day when she is at work.
Copied the bondi fill transfer core box into metal at the foundry this week end, so now I can make hot sand cores. If I was interested in production I would have made a few more metal die copies but I probably will only ever need 12 transfer sand cores? One casting to machine up first and make mistakes on and the second "real" one.


So you going to make a twin? the pipes will be like octopus tentacles. Does the crecy engine like expansion chambers as the RR version only had stubs

[Flettner]

No, just a single, always a mistake will be made on the first casting!
Crecy was supercharged so it's quite a different engine. I'm just stealing the open ended sleeve tech, I'm not even using their sleeve drive.

[TZ350]

290665

aircooled rg125, it was built by Pete Jones, has run ...

I like it, I have some heavy industrial heat sinks that I am interested in using, thinking of air cooling a RGV250 cylinder that I have had the cases for, for some time. I was going to make a H2O 100 but an air cooled 125 has its appeal.

290674290673

Just about figured out how to get the heat from the exhaust port area out to the fins. The current idea, is to fill the water cavity with copper wire off cuts and oil and sandwich the cylinder between copper faced heat sinks.

290672290675

Using an RGV250 cylinder would give me a power valve and a great cylinder with open access to the transfer ports for fuel injecting.

The EFI thing is part of getting these air cooled projects reliable.

And there is an even more challenging but exciting follow on project in the wings, so plenty to do.

[Nickko]

That looks like your classic reversion hole at 7k for sure. I would be looking at the muffler more than length. Looks almost like it has some sort of reduction in the muffler. Or its a megaphone? I have sean plenty of graphs like that trying different exhausts on FXRs.

Thanks Rich, the muffler is a CRF250 - straight through.

[richban]

Thanks Rich, the muffler is a CRF250 - straight through.

Cool. Have you ever had it apart? I had a Yohsi pipe that was straight through. But it had a little ring in the middle to push air around into the second perf. I removed the ring and the second perf and what do you know. No more reversion hole. Also you could try dropping the bottom of the Header 2-3mm from the bottom of the port (mismatch the port to header). I have also done this and it seams to be an improvement. Leave top and sides of the pipe flush or a tiny bit bigger than the exhaust port. Or of course it could be something different. my 2 cents.

[speedpro]

Does that apply to smaller engines as well?

[mr bucketracer]

Does that apply to smaller engines as well?what you can do to try it , is cut a sheet metal d port out and samdwich it between the exhaurt port and head then you can try diffient hights on the dyno , on the fxr it made .6 hp more but did lump the power up alot from about 8rpm

[Bert]

what you can do to try it , is cut a sheet metal d port out and sandwich it between the exhaust port and head then you can try different heights on the dyno , on the fxr it made .6 hp more but did lump the power up alot from about 8rpm

you weren't spose to tell about that until after the GP!! :psst::niceone:

[richban]

Does that apply to smaller engines as well?

I think it is more port specific. Re the step. When mulling it over with Kevin he said to off set the header were the flow is slowest. So on an FXR thats the bottom. I have spoken to Team GPR a few times about making an insert for the head. Sounds like its on the product list. Also a lot of people think that you can just weld any old shit together really badly when it comes to 4 stroke exhausts but really they need just as much love as a well built 2 stroke chamber with super smooth transitions and no lumpy shit inside the pipe or even more so the muffler. Love your exhaust people and it will love you back.

Edit: Not sure about your low revving Scooter mike.

Now back to the proper topic. Can't wait to get my NSR umm 300 going in the next month. North island national rounds are the target. Word on the street is the there will be a few Bucket races taking there normal on track rivalry to F3. Or Super buckets as I like to think of it.

[kel]

ah four strokes :sick:.
The FXR exhaust port has some nice flats top and bottom as standard. The flat bottom of the exhaust port floor aids flow out of the head (further improved by extending into the header?). The flat top of the exhaust port is for AR, this should not be extended/blended into the header. Nothing new here but it seems to be so commonly over looked with those big hucked out exhaust ports matched to the headers. Whats really missing are those fantastically loud megas!

[F5 Dave]

I think Mike was asking if that trick would work on smaller engines, you know , ones around 150cc:innocent:

[richban]

I think Mike was asking if that trick would work on smaller engines, you know , ones around 150cc:innocent:

I will deal with him tomorrow.:innocent:

[wobbly]

On all 4Ts with crap short turn radius flow, having a step at the bottom of the pipe/head face helps to prevent reverse flow backing up into the port where the flow
velocity is least due to turbulence.
You could also look into making a reverse flow kill canister in the first part of the header, this was something I built years ago for FF1600 and was copied later by a couple of USA manufacturers.
Look for pics online of FF headers with small canisters about 150mm from the head, where the first step up is made in a 3 step design.
Next experiment is a sort of "boost bottle " setup in the header as well, this emulates the small crossover pipes seen on Yoshi headers on older Superbikes.
This also kills the reversion wave that runs back up the Ex port during TDC overlap and is so bad in some cases as to be able to see black exhaust residuals inside the first part of the inlet valve port.
The idea was confirmed to work very well ( way better than crossovers ) in a Doctoral thesis I supervised at Cant Uni,using Fluent to 3D model a FF1600 for Mr Evans.

[Frits Overmars]

...You could also look into making a reverse flow kill canister in the first part of the headerI did something similar somewhere in the previous millennium; not in Fluent but on a Guzzi :msn-wink:.
It lifted the power curve quite nicely and it allowed us to get away with huge header diameters without any trace of megaphonitis.

[Flettner]

Grinding the sleeve, fixture has been made to hold the sleeve evenly all around.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4503_zps31f4827c.jpg

[wobbly]

Yea well Fluent & Guzzi = dinosour on both counts.
Idiot minds working the same again I see Frits.
The FF1600 system with the reversion step, the cannister and 3 step headers, venturi collector with a tapered secondary and "cheater " megaphone muffler
is still by far the most powerful anyone has seen here measured on an independent ( Marsh ) engine dyno.
The PhD canditate wrote a huge program to test every variation of cam timing and pipe design combination I could dream up, of course it won the National title, but has funnily dissapeared since.

[fatbastd]

Did he get his doctorate?

[Kickaha]

I think it is more port specific. Re the step. When mulling it over with Kevin he said to off set the header were the flow is slowest. So on an FXR thats the bottom.

I an remember reading about 20 odd years ago about British singles cutting a notch and adding a small triangular "dam" into the header pipe on the bottom not far off the exhaust port so it was still smoothish on the way out but a verticle wall coming back

[Grumph]

I an remember reading about 20 odd years ago about British singles cutting a notch and adding a small triangular "dam" into the header pipe on the bottom not far off the exhaust port so it was still smoothish on the way out but a verticle wall coming back

An oldie but a goodie....doesn't this all sound rather similar to the bit Wob posted a while back about how a yamaha tech solved the detonation problem by putting a boss for a sensor in pretty much the same place...The more things change etc etc...

Wob - I'm pretty sure I was told that that FF motor finished up scattered over ruapuna.

[Frits Overmars]

Idiot minds working the same again I see Frits.I once saw a slightly different formulation: "Great minds think alike". But the guy who wrote that probably didn't know you and me :p.

[TZ350]

Ok .....

I dusted off my old valve powered signal generator and oscilloscope.

And brought some science to the problem, and it looks like its not me.

290724

In the advanced calibrations screen there are two injectors with appropriate values.

290728

The throttle is opened and FUELPW1 becomes active.

290729

And the oscilloscope shows output to injector 1

290725

Injector 2's connected.

290726

The throttle was opened until FUELPW2 became active.

290727

But there is no corresponding activity on the oscilloscope for injector 2.

So now I know, activity on the gauges does not guarantee output at the injectors.

My guess is that, the second injector has never been functional, and that would certainly explain the problems I have been having.

Later ......

I tried a really old version of the ProCal software and calibration files, they worked, so its some sort of software glitch in the newer replacement version of the software or calibration file that I received from Ecotrons when I reported the problem with the TPS function on the gauge screen earlier.

At least its good to know for-sure what the problem is but I am annoyed at the effort I have had to go to to sort it out. If it wasn't for this I could have been up and running weeks ago.

Tomorrow I will download the very latest Version of ProCal and see how that goes.

[wobbly]

The excessive intellect and or overly retarded will state the obvious and think its clever.
Subtlety is the realm of the thoughtful.
Problem lies in deciding what end of the spectrum one fits best to Frits.

[TZ350]

290752

........................

[GerbilGronk]

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab102/GerbilGronk/Random%20Shots/IMG_9200_zpsa359c0a7.jpg (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/GerbilGronk/media/Random%20Shots/IMG_9200_zpsa359c0a7.jpg.html)
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab102/GerbilGronk/Random%20Shots/IMG_9195_zps49a0ee1c.jpg (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/GerbilGronk/media/Random%20Shots/IMG_9195_zps49a0ee1c.jpg.html)

This is what happens when Flettner has no freeview.

[TZ350]

290754

They are looking good, I have my hat in the ring for a 100cc version of the casting.

[Nickko]

Cool. Have you ever had it apart? I had a Yohsi pipe that was straight through. But it had a little ring in the middle to push air around into the second perf. I removed the ring and the second perf and what do you know. No more reversion hole. Also you could try dropping the bottom of the Header 2-3mm from the bottom of the port (mismatch the port to header). I have also done this and it seams to be an improvement. Leave top and sides of the pipe flush or a tiny bit bigger than the exhaust port. Or of course it could be something different. my 2 cents.

Thanks Rich,

I am going after it. Will start with the muffler, then I like the header idea, and easy to trial. In simple terms I guess we are just trying to alter the natural frequency of the header. The header is not huge at the outlet, but bigger than stock and matched to the port.

As an aside, Max's FXR engine (the Stu Hines build), is mildly ported and has a standard FXR header (with the weld ground out) that goes to an open exhaust/expansion chamber and as we know that is not too shabby!

[TZ350]

Now that I have found a good calibration file that runs both injectors things are starting to fall into place.

290756

I spent the afternoon using the oscilloscope to check and adjust the crossover and the minimum width between pulses of the injectors so they were in balance at peak rpm and getting everything done in about 180 degrees before transfer closing at any rpm up to 14,000.

290755

To get my head around it all I drew a picture of an injector pulse.

290757

And marked out all the relevant timing events like transfer port opening/closing and marked out how many degrees the crank moved at different rpm for 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 ms.

With ProCal running and the oscilloscope I could easily see at what RPM and TPS the injectors swapped from 1 to 2 and then 2 + 1. By making changes in the advanced calibrations menu I could influence when this happened and keep everything within about 180 degrees before the end point at transfers closing.

The Ecotrons EFI system allows you to set the end point and the EFI cpu works out how early to start the injection pulse. So with the endpoint set at transfer closing the injector pulse will mostly happen during the transfer open period.

It is certainly much easier dialing in this part of the setup on the bench with a signal generator and oscilloscope than on the dyno.

[Flettner]

290754

They are looking good, I have my hat in the ring for a 100cc version of the casting.

If the sleeve thing doesn't work, we will just lower the exhaust ports and re cast as an FOS cylinder.

[TZ350]

If the sleeve thing doesn't work, we will just lower the exhaust ports and re cast as an FOS cylinder.

Great stuff ....... this is really exciting Bucket building.

[TZ350]

290772

Ok ... we now run on two injectors.

But having climbed one hill I have found another behind it.

I set the start =1 - after start =0 and warmup factors =0 so they would be neutral.

For some reason the universal calibration adjustment has quite an effect while the same magnitude of change made to the Load Map does not have the same effect.

I think there must be some other map bending factors in the Advanced menu that need setting to zero too.

And also there is a peculiar problem that Speedpro mentioned, earthing the case of the EFI's CPU causes the Laptop to lose contact with the CPU and the motor starts grinding to a stop, starts straight up when the CPU's case is isolated again.

[F5 Dave]

Glad I'm not trial blazing that path. I'm having enough drama remembering to set program auto on the Ignitech when trying to set the base. Just cut a woodruff key as got sick of trying to find top or 15and then re timing. But I missed the first time. Bah.

[speedpro]

And also there is a peculiar problem that Speedpro mentioned, earthing the case of the EFI's CPU causes the Laptop to lose contact with the CPU and the motor starts grinding to a stop, starts straight up when the CPU's case is isolated again.

My fuel pump was erratic and mainly would not run at start.

My understanding is that the universal calibration adjustment multiplies the result of all the map values and any other multiplication factors so it can have a HUGE effect. The other multiplication factors like "warmup" only multiply the values active in the table. Those table values may also be multiplied by a 2nd factor and then added to that previously calculated value. The 2nd multiplication factor does not multiply the result of the 1st calculation.

[Frits Overmars]

If the sleeve thing doesn't work, we will just lower the exhaust ports and re cast as an FOS cylinder.I was hoping your sleeve thing would work, but what should I hope for now? :confused:

You know, I followed the same line of thought, starting with the full circumferential porting of a uniflow cylinder and then trying to eliminate the excess mechanics by pulling the exhaust end of the barrel inside out like a sock, so the piston could take over the sleeve's task.

[TZ350]

My understanding is that the universal calibration adjustment multiplies the result of all the map values and any other multiplication factors so it can have a HUGE effect. The other multiplication factors like "warmup" only multiply the values active in the table. Those table values may also be multiplied by a 2nd factor and then added to that previously calculated value. The 2nd multiplication factor does not multiply the result of the 1st calculation.

On mine there is also a bottom mid and top rpm enrichment/enleanment factor that looks like its for bending the curve. I will have to have an explore to see what they do exactly and if they are the problem.

It makes sense that there are different .cal files that come with different numbers and types of variables to chose from, for 4T 2T supercharged etc. There are also different .A2L files, and I suspect these contain the EFI programs algorithm and are configured by Ecotrons to match the hardware they are shipping.

[speedpro]

The A2L files are the operating programme for the Motorola processor, I think.

[TZ350]

Here's race one:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bX6RzV8t6g&feature=share&list=UUg1Ze1muy87n3mkhOHMXVSg

I'll load up race two over night.


And race 2


http://youtu.be/L15qcJM2XnI

Jolly good weekend.

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/kNDAENet33U" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

Richbans vid from Tokoroa ... great to see the other bikes and a neat piece of riding by Rich as he works his way up through the field.

290831

Team ESE riders 3rd and 4th in this photo, Richban is working his way through traffic to catch the lead group.

Taken from ChrisC's photo thread. http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/153656-Chris-Bucket-photo-thread-Bandwidth-warning?p=1130648134#post1130648134

[Flettner]

I was hoping your sleeve thing would work, but what should I hope for now? :confused:

You know, I followed the same line of thought, starting with the full circumferential porting of a uniflow cylinder and then trying to eliminate the excess mechanics by pulling the exhaust end of the barrel inside out like a sock, so the piston could take over the sleeve's task.

Don't get me wrong, I'm going to give it a good go but, you know, it is nice to have an alternative up your "sleeve".

[TZ350]

http://thekneeslider.com/jj2s-x4-500cc-2-stroke-update/

290809

http://jjsdesign.net/motocyklstudialny/

500 4 2T - Very interesting but I won't be trying to make a Bucket Racing version.

[Flettner]

Off to the foundry tomorrow

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4504_zpsc453af9f.jpg

Sleeve with piston. Sleeve ready for nitriding.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4508_zps1082cedc.jpg

[richban]

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/kNDAENet33U" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

Richbans vid from Tokoroa ... great to see the other bikes and a neat piece of riding by Rich as he works his way up through the field.

290831

Team ESE riders 3rd and 4th in this photo, Richban is working his way through traffic to catch the lead group.

Taken from ChrisC's photo thread. http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/153656-Chris-Bucket-photo-thread-Bandwidth-warning?p=1130648134#post1130648134

Yeah classic bad start from me. Cool little battle with Kel. About the same power. Just a little weigh difference and 2T V 4T. Great fun.

[TZ350]

290860

Ok, I am starting to understand this (I think), the transfers are cut into the sleeve and the piston uncovers them in the normal 2T way. And the top edge of the sleeve uncovers the exhaust port as the sleeve reciprocates up and down.