ESE's works engine tuner [Archive] - Page 54

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TZ350

10th December 2013, 21:08

To nights effort was about trying to figure out if I have the right size injectors and if I can make them do the job in less than 360 deg at max rpm.

290866

Selected two points on the Alpha-N, TPS/RPM Load map and checked the screen gauges at 11,750 and 12,500 rpm.

290867

Now FUELPW1 and FUELPW2 on my setup are different size injectors and don't have to have the same ms pulse width.

290868

But I do expect that for two different RPM's with the same load (ie Alpha-N TPS Load/rpm map number 135.023 at 11,750 and 12,500) an injector would have the same pulse width.

5ms at 11,703rpm = 351 degrees and for the same load at 12,500 rpm I would expect the pulse width to be the same.

But here the pulse width has decreased as the rpm went up and 4.8ms at 12,500rpm = 360 degrees. This indicates that the injectors have maxed out and need to be bigger.

290864

Increasing the number two injector from 330 g/min to 500 did the trick.

290865

The next trick is to increase the minimum off time between injection pulses. This is used to force the cross over between 1 to 2 and then 2 + 1 and to try and get everything done in less than 360 deg, or as quickly as possible, ie 180 - 240 degrees or so without cutting things to short for the injectors to get it all done at the higher rpm. Basically, the injector has to be on for at least 2ms and not more than 360 deg, so as the rpm goes up the window gets very small. Next time I might try a dummy map with a straight line just to make it easier.

The whole thing is a bit of a fine balancing act.

Haufen

11th December 2013, 05:14

As if these options were not enough already, are you able to vary the fuel pressure, too, TZ?

TZ350

11th December 2013, 05:45

As if these options were not enough already, are you able to vary the fuel pressure, too, TZ?

Yes I know, much more complicated than I first thought but makes sense as I get used to it. I guess I could vary the fuel pressure and I think there might be a map for doing that but the basic kit I have only has a simple pressure regulator. I will have to look into the possibilities of varying the fuel pressure, thanks for the tip.

Flettner

11th December 2013, 18:07

Foundry day successful.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4509_zps4c86d653.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4510_zpsfba4e4a3.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4511_zps0fe7eb9d.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4512_zps5a352b9a.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4513_zps0229403a.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4514_zpsccd56315.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4516_zpsa6a8844e.jpg

From glue, beads and bodifill rubbish, to somthing usefull.

Bert

11th December 2013, 18:36

Foundry day successful.

From glue, beads and bodifill rubbish, to somthing usefull.

epic. Love your work

Out of interest, could you even get close to the same quality (as your results). Using lost wax or foam??

Cheers
Brent

wax

11th December 2013, 19:33

Foundry day successful.

From glue, beads and bodifill rubbish, to somthing usefull.

I have to admit this is frying my little brain watching this

Yow Ling

11th December 2013, 19:52

I hope the Germans dont steal your IP Flettner !

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Sketchy_Racer

11th December 2013, 22:55

Foundry day successful.

From glue, beads and bodifill rubbish, to somthing usefull.

Loving your work Flettner.

How do you go about the design of these are you using a flow analysis software along with 3d modelling or all empirical design?

Cheers,

-Sketchy

TZ350

12th December 2013, 17:55

Things that you don't read in the Ecotrons manual but now we know for sure.

290940

ECU case is electrically isolated.

290941

ProCal software is connected and running.

290939

ECU case is earthed.

290938

ProCal software is dis-connected and has stopped running.

The metal Ecotrons ECU case can't be grounded in any way when mounted to the bikes chassis, next time I will get the cheaper plastic case version and fit my own RF shielding.

speedpro

12th December 2013, 17:58

. . . . and there will be 7mA of so flowing to ground. There was on mine.

koba

12th December 2013, 20:47

Interesting!

TZ, can you save changes to the ignitec on the fly? (With the engine running)

TZ350

12th December 2013, 20:59

Interesting! TZ, can you save changes to the ignitec on the fly? (With the engine running)

Yes, well depends what you mean about "on the fly". With the IgniTec we can do a pull on the dyno and as the bike is winding down make a change to the ignition timing map and re load it ready for the the next pull, quick as and the engine does not miss a beat.

But we can not alter a point on the ignition map and have that reflected by the engine without re loading the complete IgniTec file.

speedpro

12th December 2013, 22:10

You should be able to alter a value in any map that starts with RAM because as the name suggests, these maps are loaded in RAM and run from there. Any changes therefore are effective immediately. I've messed with my ignition map, not on the dyno I must admit, and I'm pretty sure I could hear a change. If I remember I also saw the Spark CrA values change as well on the gauge

290946

koba

13th December 2013, 05:07

Cheers :) :)

F5 Dave

13th December 2013, 09:09

BTW Mal that plug I swapped in desperation on the dyno I had checked before I put it in to make sure it was the same as what I pulled out, but for some reason had a brain fart. I double checked last night & couldn't believe that there was no 'R' in the code. :facepalm: Didn't know I had any non resistor plugs. Must have come out of the 50 at some stage.

Perhaps that was the reason I couldn't get the PC to update the igni when it was running.

Bert

13th December 2013, 15:14

F5 Dave

13th December 2013, 15:48

oh yeah when Leigh drove off with the spares, forgot about that. Thanks again anyway I have it in my spares now if you want it back, only lightly oiled;)

Bert

13th December 2013, 17:59

oh yeah when Leigh drove off with the spares, forgot about that. Thanks again anyway I have it in my spares now if you want it back, only lightly oiled;)

Ill correct you there Dave.
"When Leigh drove off after having walked around asking everyone if they had everything they needed from the van....."

:innocent:

But no worries that why we have parts boxes.

chrisc

13th December 2013, 20:01

I've been thinking a lot about ducting the air on a two stroke. See attached for bits taken from "The Racing Motorcycle. A technical guide for constructors" by John Bradley. Whilst it isn't ground breaking discussion it is at least interesting. The book is a favourite of mine, I just wish I could get the second edition to read!

Hopefully the text is readable
290969290968290967290966

fatbastd

14th December 2013, 17:29

I thought that when I bought the first volume, so grabbed the second when I saw it available - equally good! Lots of stuff at an understandable level - hydro-forming exhausts (though we know that costs a little power now, but perhaps easiert o make pipes and odd shape), rapid prototyping parts, etc, etc.

husaberg

14th December 2013, 17:32

This was posted elsewhere today i had never heard about it... predates the win of Roberts on the TZ750 gorilla.
Note the scoop.
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/image/archive/bertervin.jpg
Typical Erv attention to detail..

With cardboard handguards on the bars and air scoops funneling air to its three cylinder heads, Don Castro's #11 Kawasaki H2 flat tracker is warmed up for battle by its creator Erv Kanemoto. Scott Brelsford's #19 H2 can also be seen in the background.
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/Dec/131213verve.htm

TZ350

14th December 2013, 18:53

Frits Overmars

15th December 2013, 00:36

This was posted elsewhere today i had never heard about it... predates the win of Roberts on the TZ750 gorilla.Goose pimples: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k8hJWKIVNs

TZ350

15th December 2013, 07:55

kel

15th December 2013, 08:15

Goose pimples: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k8hJWKIVNs
Fantastic. And to think Roberts and Caruthers headed to Europe and road racing because they couldn't compete with the Harleys :eek:

TZ350

15th December 2013, 08:28

its a start of a little bit of a story.

For a while now, I've been playing around with CDI's (to the point of even trying to make one myself).
Back in 2010 I got myself an ignitech P2 and fell in love with it (amazing value for money and recommend them to nearly everyone).

But; with over 9 bucket bikes in the GPR fleet (including 50, sidecars and some other gems); its a little to expensive to have ignitech's on everything, so we are stuck with the age old problem "shit CDIs" or swapping CDI's....

So as part of the my original search (2010) I stumbled across a Chinese MC forum (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=www.motorfans.com.cn%2Fbbs%2Fviewthread.php%3Ffi d%3D14%26tid%3D562783) where a young man named Dragon was prototyping a CDI; which I followed with some interest (along with some correspondence; and a simple wish list).

Well he managed to do it and start producing the units. And yes you can buy them directly out of china.
Sitting on my desk is a Version 1.04 (o.k so its a version 4) after fighting Customs....
291011

After working through the Chinese Complied version; I now have a Engrish (not quite English) version of the software installed and running.
291012

Thus far; now we have it in a state where we can do something:
Once you get the USB dongle installed, the software and CDI will happily talk without any connection to a 12v battery (this is cool as I can play with it in my office rather than in the shed).
Adding and moving points (up to 120 points; but five to seven will do) and programming is a piece of piss.
The CDI micro's clock speed is significantly higher than that of the ignitech (so the number of points at the moment doesn't seem to be an issue).
Two or four stroke (single or twin) it doesn't matter.
half effect trigger as a primary (but it looks like it will take other trigger options)

Extra Features:
Bugger all at the moment.
Kill switch, quickshifter (ok internal modification of the killswitch; with a time delayed spark). plus adjustable MAP and RPM limiter.
Price = ~$150 for the chinese version currently (but I'm working on that too)...

From here:
Should be on the bike this week (on the dyno) and I'll see if I can break it.
If it survives then I'll carry on the translation of the installation manual/wiring diagrams and help improve the Engrish in the software further...

Its not an Ignitech (if you want that level of performance/features get an Ignitech);
But hopefully its better than a clapped out 20 year old MX CDI, which would likely still cost more...

I'll keep everyone in the loop.

Worth a look .......

koba

15th December 2013, 18:19

DaisyB

16th December 2013, 06:31

Chaps, experiencing a sense of finishing a good book- been reading the thread for the last few months and tonight I get to the end.
(Now all I have to do is re-read the notes I've made along the way!)
Thanks for a brilliant read, I've learnt as much -if not more- in the last 800 odd pages as I have from messing about tuning 2 strokes over the last 20 years.
If you'll allow the typical newbie flurry of questions I'd be grateful.
My class of choice has some draconian rules - limited choice of cylinders, no welding (or "adding material")to case or cylinder & no frame mods.
Engine is 66.5 x 57 (210cc) air-cooled, piston ported inlet, single exhaust port, A & B ports + a poxy C port fed through the piston above the inlet port, HPI programmable ignition. Blown exhaust of someone elses design - which will be changing. Current BHP 30.4 @9500 on Dynojet inertia. I'm looking for 36 -38 hp for next season using what I've learnt here, which is roughly what the fastest chaps are getting.
So, I am stuck with a long inlet manifold of about 90 mm along center line, which curves about 35* What would be better for power: shorter & more curved or longer and straighter? Should the cross sectional area remain the same all the way through?
I'm allowed any carb (but no injection thank god given the last few pages:rolleyes:) so I'm using a 39mm Dellorto flatside. Going to cast my own manifold having been inspired by Fletter
Thanks in advance & brace yourselves for a barrage of question s:facepalm:
Cheers, Dave

TZ350

16th December 2013, 09:28

Hi DasiyB, can you post some pictures of your project, they would be interesting to see. A link to a photo bucket some place would be easiest, or you will have to make 5 or 10??? general posts here before you can post pictures. Regards TeeZee.

DaisyB

16th December 2013, 10:09

Hi TZ,
I'm off down the workshop tomorrow evening so will take some pictures. Then the cat will be out of the bag in that my chosen field is Lambretta racing (and Vespa tuning) Which I'd sort of hoped to gloss over given the reaction one other Vespa rider usually garners:facepalm:

F5 Dave

16th December 2013, 10:59

That's only 'cause he acted like a bit of a dick.

Having only had one stint scooter racing I'd be spending all my time into chassis improvements & a larger rear brake so you could use it to wind the chassis & engine up & let it go at the right point of time.

speedpro

16th December 2013, 11:34

Hot scooters are way cool. There used to be a small crowd turn up at bucket racing with some very interesting machines. I bought a 125 4T Yamaha for commuting so I wouldn't be tempted to modify it. HA! That didn't quite turn out how I expected. It's now big bore cylinder, stroker crank, big head & cam, big carb, 205cc Taiwanese special. Photos would be interesting.

FastFred

16th December 2013, 11:50

... my chosen field is Lambretta racing (and Vespa tuning) Which I'd sort of hoped to gloss over given the reaction one other Vespa rider usually garners

I wouldn't worry, its not a scooter thing, its that SS90 always needed to be right even when he was wrong, his behavior got in the way of anything interesting he might have had to say.

Flettner

16th December 2013, 12:14

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4519_zps1b5dd691.jpg

Machining out the 360 cases. CC601 heat treated usualy machines well, shiny and hard.

wobbly

16th December 2013, 13:55

Unsuspectingly I did a pipe for a Scooter Racer a while ago.
He paid good money for the full sim analysis, and was happy to bolt/weld/screw all manner of very unstock components into and onto his baby of choice.
By chance I got to see it at Taupo one day.
The chamber was about the same length as the bike, so it mostly stuck straight out the back behind the rear wheel,and thinking like I do
I was sure the rider had given the tech inspector a free blowy.
Looked a little odd I thought sitting in the pits that day, but to then see it being ridden by a bloke ? in a grey plastic raincoat
was a life changing revelation, and I was then absolutely sure about the entry favours I had fleetingly mused over.

But seriously, of all the wierd arse mechanical contraptions that ipso facto require extended tangential though patterns, the scooter is up there with the best.

wax

16th December 2013, 20:49

For what its worth here is my race scooter

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc79/waxracing/603273_571749652850880_683594087_n.jpg (http://s215.photobucket.com/user/waxracing/media/603273_571749652850880_683594087_n.jpg.html)

they are great fun

Frits Overmars

16th December 2013, 23:58

For what its worth here is my race scooter. they are great funScooters require some getting used to for an old school racer like myself, but yes, they can be great fun.

DaisyB

17th December 2013, 06:03

Ahh, now your all assuming it's an auto, I'm afraid I like to make things a bit more difficult....

Traditional (1960's) style geared (4, go ahead, count 'em) scooters. I'm No 63
291103
291104
291105
Once I've uploaded the barrel pictures I'll stick 'em up. (V slow connection, I live in the sticks)

richban

17th December 2013, 06:49

Scooters require some getting used to for an old school racer like myself, but yes, they can be great fun.

Ok just to join the club. Sorry for the noise it appears to only be firing every now and again. Oh and yes helmet not on. Bad bad bad. Sorry I was young and silly then.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/JtV43vUlxMo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

DaisyB

17th December 2013, 07:43

The sound of a Vespa et4 in pain :killingme

Okay, re my first post, these pics are of last years engine, kindly lent to me by the team I now race with to replace the vintage (20 year old but not an unhealthy 26hp from a cast iron 2 trans fan cooled) engine I turned up on after an 18 year lay-off from racing this summer.
This is ally barrel, nikasil lined 2 trans 30hp & now the "spare" motor. Head is a copy casting from an MZ which allows us to use air scoop cooling and get rid of the fan.

291116291117

My problem with the inlet manifold can be seen, it can't be straightened out properly or a down draft used as the frame rail is right above it.

I've just been told by the system that I can only upload 6 photos per post so I'll put the new barrel pics on the next post below.
Dave

DaisyB

17th December 2013, 07:55

And here's the start of next years engine. The latest "legal" barrel, and the crankcase mouth to give an idea of limitations. Bore 66.5, stroke 57, rod 107mm. Bear in mind I'm not allowed to add any material or move the studs.

291118291119291120291121291122

I'll have lots of requests for tuning advice once I get the manifold questions sorted :rolleyes:
Cheers.

F5 Dave

17th December 2013, 08:25

Ok just to join the club. Sorry for the noise it appears to only be firing every now and again. Oh and yes helmet not on. Bad bad bad. Sorry I was young and silly then.
That was like 3 years ago. Young? Sheesh!

speedpro

17th December 2013, 08:36

We all know he has problems with numbers

jasonu

17th December 2013, 14:34

Ok just to join the club. Sorry for the noise it appears to only be firing every now and again. Oh and yes helmet not on. Bad bad bad. Sorry I was young and silly then.

[QUOTE=F5 Dave;1130651217]That was like 3 years ago. Young? Sheesh!

You'd get thrown in jail if ya did that at Mt Welli:Police: (in my day anyhow)

husaberg

17th December 2013, 15:29

My problem with the inlet manifold can be seen, it can't be straightened out properly or a down draft used as the frame rail is right above it.

Can you twist the cylinder around 90 Degrees?
I guess not..... no crankcase mods.......

F5 Dave

17th December 2013, 16:15

[QUOTE=richban;1130651170]Ok just to join the club. Sorry for the noise it appears to only be firing every now and again. Oh and yes helmet not on. Bad bad bad. Sorry I was young and silly then.

You'd get thrown in jail if ya did that at Mt Welli:Police: (in my day anyhow)

Ahh but that was at the slipway, a tiny temp track we used but it was built for drifting cars which I believe is some sort of means of diposing of old tyres.

TZ350

17th December 2013, 19:24

Chaps, experiencing a sense of finishing a good book- been reading the thread for the last few months and tonight I get to the end. (Now all I have to do is re-read the notes I've made along the way!)
Thanks for a brilliant read, I've learnt as much -if not more- in the last 800 odd pages as I have from messing about tuning 2 strokes over the last 20 years. Cheers, Dave

Hi Dave, you have done well to get through all 800+ pages.

I am stuck with a long inlet manifold of about 90 mm along center line, which curves about 35* What would be better for power: shorter & more curved or longer and straighter? Should the cross sectional area remain the same all the way through?

Would it be possible to do away with the inlet tract and bolt a Tillitson pumper carb to the cylinder? They can go on at any angle and we got good results with ours.

I'm allowed any carb (but no injection thank god given the last few pageshttp://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif) so I'm using a 39mm Dellorto flatside. Going to cast my own manifold having been inspired by Fletter

I am a real newbee to fuel injection and have probably caused most of my own problems.

Its good to see someone interested in following Fletteners lead and thinking about casting their own parts.

And here's the start of next years engine. The latest "legal" barrel, and the crankcase mouth to give an idea of limitations. Bore 66.5, stroke 57, rod 107mm. Bear in mind I'm not allowed to add any material or move the studs.

Vespa scooter, very interesting, I like these projects and its just like the Simpson, where you have to use all of your imagination to get the best out of the engine and bike within the rules.

This is certainly a good place to pickup usefull tuning tips.

Thanks for posting the pictures, please post more as your project develops.

Flettner

17th December 2013, 20:45

All I had time for tonight, four threads on top are not head studs. Both cylinders have been heat treated but I'll only machine one, untill there is a mistake!
This appears to be a very clean casting, must have had the risers ( feeders ) in the right place.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4521_zpsf0dc6d04.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4522_zpsab2b9e7d.jpg

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4520_zpscb34c218.jpg

F5 Dave

17th December 2013, 21:43

I cannot believe the finish you are getting on that casting. That is outstanding.

Drew

18th December 2013, 05:39

I cannot believe the finish you are getting on that casting. That is outstanding.How are you off for time Dave? I know you don't like to spend a great deal of money (and I can certainly relate), but your own castings to make your bike watercooled seems to need time more than anything else.

The MB could be outstanding with a proper water jacket, no?

Flettner

18th December 2013, 08:21

Greg at Thames foundry ltd, he knows how to cast aluminium proper.

speedpro

18th December 2013, 08:50

and you don't have a clue. Yeah right.

F5 Dave

18th December 2013, 09:34

How are you off for time Dave? I know you don't like to spend a great deal of money (and I can certainly relate), but your own castings to make your bike watercooled seems to need time more than anything else.

The MB could be outstanding with a proper water jacket, no?

Ask Jimmy about my RG/RGV/RZ/CPI 500 2 stroke. He's seen it once. Its rego & a speedo fix (and another trip to the dyno) from being used again, but its sitting with a sheet on it at the side of the garage due to lack of time.

Yow Ling

18th December 2013, 14:06

jasonu

18th December 2013, 14:11

Flettner

18th December 2013, 14:47

I'm thinking the oil will arrive via the fuel and be deposited on the cylinder wall, like normal. Remember, the sleeve is open ended and slides down, completely past the exhaust ports, uncovering the alloy cyinder wall as transfer / exhaust is taking place. Also the transfer windows will slide up toward the exhaust port, helping deposit oil residue under the exhaust port. As the chamber ( x2 ) stuffs fuel air back into the cylinder, the sleeve is closing. This too will deposit oil directly onto the outer sleeve wall. Who knows? I'm sure WE will find out. Oil is not what worries me, it's the heat distortion. Thats why I've water cooled eveywhere around the exhaust ports and outlet tubes. Fuel might have to be the sleeve's saviour, that fuel might end up being E85?

TZ350

18th December 2013, 18:41

I am stuck with a long inlet manifold of about 90 mm along center line, which curves about 35* What would be better for power: shorter & more curved or longer and straighter? Should the cross sectional area remain the same all the way through? I'm allowed any carb

Just putting a few ideas out there.

291158

A pumper carb can be smaller than a regular carb.

291157

If you have a problem with space, a pumper can be mounted at any angle you like, even verticaly up or down.

291159291160

I picked up usefull hp by reducing the flow restriction in the curved part of the inlet manifold with a divider.

Because of the restrictive 24mm carb rule I have to work with, my manifold was bigger at the exit than the inlet.

291161

Hopefully the pictures show how a divider promotes better air flow. Its an idea I intend on trying in the transfer ducts at some point.

I am not sure the tapering down inlet idea that works so well in four strokes applies to 2T's. A pipe that diverges at 1 deg included flows more than a parallel pipe.

I think that a divergent inlet that allows for some pressure recovery might be worth looking at. Its a question I am very interested in too, it would be interesting to hear Wobs and Frits's thoughts about inlet taper for a 2T.

DaisyB

18th December 2013, 19:36

Thanks TeeZee,

I can't work out how to copy bits of posts - too early in the morning (for me).

I can't directly bolt on a tillotson as the frame rail (about 80mm dia) is within 40mm of the barrel at the inlet port but the divider is a good idea & the new barrel has a bridge already. If my manifold has the divider sticking into the port they could meet & I'm not adding metal to the barrel !

Re Injection, I've got a Vespa at the workshop with Ecotrons injection fitted and not running :no: It's been looking at me every time I go down there for over a year, I just don't have the computing/electronics skills and not enough time to learn at the moment. Still, reading the last few pages has given me some pointers

DaisyB

18th December 2013, 19:42

Oh look, there's a "reply with quote" button :brick:

How close to the carb does the flow divider go? Or is it just on the curved section?

husaberg

18th December 2013, 19:45

Thanks TeeZee,

I can't work out how to copy bits of posts - too early in the morning (for me).
reply with Quote and then copy out the quote by, and the end of the quote bits. Just keep adding them

it will look like this[/QUTE] until you reply
[QUOTE=DaisyB;1130651927]I can't directly bolt on a tillotson as the frame rail (about 80mm dia) is within 40mm of the barrel at the inlet port but the divider is a good idea & the new barrel has a bridge already. If my manifold has the divider sticking into the port they could meet & I'm not adding metal to the barrel !

Clever Rob Muzzy used to do the same with carb reducing sleeves for the ZXR750's he had them as part of the manifold as he wasn't allow to mod the carbs for WSBK on tighter tracks.

TZ350

18th December 2013, 21:24

291172

How close to the carb does the flow divider go? Or is it just on the curved section?

The flow divider was just in the curved section.

I can't directly bolt on a Tillotson as the frame rail (about 80mm dia) is within 40mm of the barrel at the inlet port but the divider is a good idea & the new barrel has a bridge already. If my manifold has the divider sticking into the port they could meet & I'm not adding metal to the barrel !

Good thinking, I am impressed, yes with a divider poking inside the barrel your not actually adding metal to the barrel, I like it.

I am hoping this V Tech inlet idea will add an extra 1000 or so rpm on the bottom end
The plan is to run it up with the valve fully open then fully closed, compare the graphs and manually switch it during a run to see what a dual curve looks like. I am ready to go, just need to get to the dyno.

239753

Interesting, in the hand activated trial of the V Tec there is the beginings of some extra power at the top. Not sure what contributed this, the vetec added an extra 25mm to the inlet tract for 195mm total or possibly the little kick I gave the end of the divider better directs the flow behind the conrod as the incoming air/fuel enters the crank case.

This is something else we tried, it was for halving the diameter of the inlet tract so as to keep the air velocity and ramming effect at lower rpm. It worked but was a lot of effort for 500 rpm between 6500 and 7000 rpm.

291169 291170 291171

Your idea of poking a divider inside the barrel could be extended to the exhaust port. If you are brave enough you could machine a bolt in alloy divider with a plated edge for the ring to run on, and fit it into the exhaust port and that way you could really widen the port out to get the required blow down time area with a lower exhaust port timing that better suits the natural resonance of tuned exhaust systems ie 192 - 196 degrees duration.

Re Injection, I've got a Vespa at the workshop with Ecotrons injection fitted and not running :no: It's been looking at me every time I go down there for over a year, I just don't have the computing/electronics skills and not enough time to learn at the moment. Still, reading the last few pages has given me some pointers

Ecotrons emailed me today and are interested in supporting me as they have seen I am very keen on their EFI unit and have the facilities to develop and test a performance 2T system on my bike.

I am the ideal crash test dummy for them as I started of knowing nothing and are falling into every trap along the way. I will keep posting as I go along, hopefully some usefull tips will come out of it.

wobbly

19th December 2013, 06:54

Just a silly question but one that has worked several times to great effect on quads etc, can you simply reverse the scooter cylinder 180*
on the studs.
This may help the inlet, but make the pipe even more of a nightmare than already

F5 Dave

19th December 2013, 08:50

Your idea of poking a divider inside the barrel could be extended to the exhaust port. If you are brave enough you could machine a bolt in alloy divider with a plated edge for the ring to run on, and fit it into the exhaust port and that way you could really widen the port out to get the required blow down time area with a lower exhaust port timing that better suits the natural resonance of tuned exhaust systems ie 192 - 196 degrees duration.. . .

I think you would have to be more than brave. It would work well as long as that bit of the engine didn't get too hot. Even with a thick slice of ally there is no way it could shed heat, it would just have to budge & there would always be a lip at the top of the port for the ring to traverse.

I do like the inlet idea though. You can see the tech inspector going "Hey that's not. . .um. . .well. . . Yeah ok, good one"

TZ350

19th December 2013, 12:29

I think you would have to be more than brave. It would work well as long as that bit of the engine didn't get too hot. Even with a thick slice of ally there is no way it could shed heat, it would just have to budge & there would always be a lip at the top of the port for the ring to traverse.

I do like the inlet idea though. You can see the tech inspector going "Hey that's not. . .um. . .well. . . Yeah ok, good one"

"Hey that's not. . .um. . .well. . . Yeah ok, good one" don't you just love that when it happens.

291185

Relieve the bridge so when it bulges out, it does not bulge into the bore enough to rub the piston, also extend the bridge insert above and below the port edge so that the ring does not catch.

Wish I had thought of this before, it could have been the answer for the GP.

F5 Dave

19th December 2013, 14:23

Its such a long ugly heatpath. If you could get a mouse size welder in there then it would be a winner hands down.

TZ350

19th December 2013, 16:06

Welding is out, as DaisyB is not allowed to add any metal to his cylinder (He can only bolt bits onto it).

F5 Dave

19th December 2013, 16:21

Hmm, and at the point it was interference fit I would claim it had indeed been 'added' to it.

If it was sliding fit & ideally attached to the exh then it is part of the exhaust.

Ocean1

19th December 2013, 17:02

Hmm, and at the point it was interference fit I would claim it had indeed been 'added' to it.

If it was sliding fit & ideally attached to the exh then it is part of the exhaust.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-expansion-metals-d_859.html

Done carefully you could extract it for inspection with your fingers.

And have it a rock solid interference fit at operating temp.

Edit: depending on the port shape and wall thickness...

Yow Ling

19th December 2013, 17:46

Welding is out, as DaisyB is not allowed to add any metal to his cylinder (He can only bolt bits onto it).

Could you melt it down and recast it from the same metal, not adding metal

husaberg

19th December 2013, 17:56

Could you melt it down and recast it from the same metal, not adding metal

he could also let it oxidise in areas where it could be beneficial to performance:rolleyes:

DaisyB

19th December 2013, 18:53

You chaps are the most ingenious s.o.bs

The inlet divider is a go for sure.

The exhaust idea is brilliant but my first thought was about heat path & ring catch. Having said that the notch top & bottom of the port & relieving might do it. I've got to get the barrel de-nikasiled (if that's a word) then I could make a spacer to fit over the exhaust flange with the bridge as part of it, sliding up in machined grooves, bore barrel, take it out, relieve & re nikasil..... I just have a niggly thought in the back of my mind that the rules do actually outlaw bridged exhaust ports, but that may be welded in ones on cast iron barrels from years ago. Need to check.

Wob, can't move the barrel 180 (although we do that on "smallframe" Vespas often enough) as the stud spacing isn't square.

Thanks for your head-space for my problems chaps, often difficult to think outside the box when you work on them all the time.
Dave

husaberg

19th December 2013, 19:03

I do like the inlet idea though. You can see the tech inspector going "Hey that's not. . .um. . .well. . . Yeah ok, good one"

Muzzy was latter failed on a tech inspection when it didn't stay with the manifold.
He did like to push the rules hence the gear wine of the ZXR at times......

In the Bell book there is a decent write up on achieving legality with the best combo of parts in relationship to std class rules with the KT100. There is always "wiggle room" in measurements of std parts. deck heights etc etc..

koba

19th December 2013, 22:13

Wob, can't move the barrel 180 (although we do that on "smallframe" Vespas often enough) as the stud spacing isn't square.

Can you run a longer rod and a thick 'spacer' that just happens to reverse the stud position to allow the barrel to be reversed?

Might need a pic...

TZ350

20th December 2013, 05:40

Can you run a longer rod and a thick 'spacer' that just happens to reverse the stud position to allow the barrel to be reversed? Might need a pic...

291202 291203

..............

TerraRoot

20th December 2013, 09:10

or turn the barrel 90 degrees and have a nice inlet and exhaust port! :shifty:

F5 Dave

20th December 2013, 09:49

The bottoms of the transfers might not flow so well though

TZ350

21st December 2013, 11:46

OK, after talking (by email) with Matt of Ecotrons it looks like the Chinese after market injectors I brought of Ebay don't have the dynamic range for a 2T at 12,000 rpm.

Until I can build an injector test rig that measures their actual flow under real conditions I have moved on to another part of the project.

The idea is to sandwich the barrel and head (block of alloy in front of the engine) between the two industrial heat sinks with two electric fans assisting in clearing the heated air and the other heat sink bolted over the head area. Lots of copper of course to transport the heat quickly to to the outer fins and ducting to catch the breeze from the bike moving through the air.

Copper wire will be packed inside the cylinder water jacket for heat transport from under the exhaust port duct and thermal paste and a touch of oil for heat transfer from the cylinder walls to the copper and the heat sinks.

291266

Now that I have a pretty good idea of how I might reliably cool the cylinder and exhaust tract area. We are looking at a fuel injected, reverse cylinder, air cooled, late model RGV250 cylinder bored out +1.5mm for the max oversize capacity allowed (130.5cc) for an F4 air cooled cylinder. 130.5cc is 12% more total capacity than allowed for a 100cc water cooled F4 engine. And that is the easiest 12% more power you will ever get.

291265

Impressive transfer ports and variable blow down time area. I might even try to make a variable length pipe for it.

The plating is useable and the plan is to run it as is, to prove (or otherwise) the concept. If it works then I will port it and have it bored to 57.5mm and re plated.

I think this is a VJ22a SP cylinder and I need a set of three blade power valves for it. Can anyone help (sell me a set), even a tip on where I can buy after market ones would be good.

richban

21st December 2013, 19:33

even a tip on where I can buy after market ones would be good.

Even the after market ones are a grand. Sketchy is making some so maybe he is your best bet. His are 2 piece not 3. But with an ignitech you should be able to get them working nice.

TZ350

21st December 2013, 20:16

His are 2 piece not 3. But with an ignitech you should be able to get them working nice.

Thanks Rich, 2 piece, is that two sliding elements or one?

sonic_v

22nd December 2013, 00:42

Frits Overmars

22nd December 2013, 01:19

...130.5cc is 12% more total capacity than allowed for a 100cc water cooled F4 engine. And that is the easiest 12% more power you will ever get.
As power is proportional to the percentage increase in bore diameter for a bored out two stroke cylinder the best you can hope for is an increase in power of 2.7 % for a 57.5 mm bore v's a 56 mm bore. Seems like an expensive modification for such a small potential power increase!And that is only true if you enlarge all port widths by the (new bore / old bore) ratio.
Just boring out a cylinder will not alter the angle.areas; it will only decrease the specific angle.areas and it will force you to lower the revs if you wish to keep the original time.areas. In short: the same power with less revs. But the larger bore will worsen the combustion chamber shape; combustion will be slower and it will heat a larger piston crown area, increasing the deto risk.

What about go the other direction and sleeve down the cylinder to the maximum allowable capacity for a "100 cc" watercooled engine? This would also move your bore/stroke ratio in the right direction.Right!

teriks

22nd December 2013, 06:20

Copper wire will be packed inside the cylinder water jacket for heat transport from under the exhaust port duct and thermal paste and a touch of oil for heat transfer from the cylinder walls to the copper and the heat sinks.

How about sealing the water jacket volume, evacuate the air, and partly fill the volume with a liquid other than water?
-Think heatpipe.
You might even end up with more efficient heat transfer (than the cu-wire thing) using oil only, that is if the water jacket allows natural convention.

/Thomas

richban

22nd December 2013, 06:27

Thanks Rich, 2 piece, is that two sliding elements or one?

Sliding. I have some shagged old style ones you could have for a beer.

husaberg

22nd December 2013, 06:38

How about sealing the water jacket volume, evacuate the air, and partly fill the volume with a liquid other than water?
-Think heatpipe.
You might even end up with more efficient heat transfer (than the cu-wire thing) using oil only, that is if the water jacket allows natural convention.

/Thomas
I think the rule says liquid.........
I have mentioned Paraffin wax before as it is common solid at room temp and during phase change it can buffer huge amounts of heat.
Rob have a gander at this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-change_material

Silver is not that dear is it..... Norton used it on the Works 500's and i think so did AJS with the Porcupine.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-conductivity-d_429.html

jasonu

22nd December 2013, 06:44

How about sealing the water jacket volume, evacuate the air, and partly fill the volume with a liquid other than water?

Liquid cooled F4 engines 104cc...

TZ350

22nd December 2013, 07:54

late model RGV250 cylinder bored out +1.5mm for the max oversize capacity allowed (130.5cc) for an F4 air cooled cylinder. 130.5cc is 12% more total capacity than allowed for a 100cc water cooled F4 engine. And that is the easiest 12% more power you will ever get.

As power is proportional to the percentage increase in bore diameter for a bored out two stroke cylinder the best you can hope for is an increase in power of 2.7 % for a 57.5 mm bore v's a 56 mm bore. 100 x ( 57.5 - 56.0 ) / 56.0

And that is only true if you enlarge all port widths by the (new bore / old bore) ratio.

Just boring out a cylinder will not alter the angle.areas; it will only decrease the specific angle.areas and it will force you to lower the revs if you wish to keep the original time.areas. In short: the same power with less revs.

But the larger bore will worsen the combustion chamber shape; combustion will be slower and it will heat a larger piston crown area, increasing the deto risk.

Ok not such a great potential power increase ... :thud:

....... right!!!! ... now put your hand up, whoever said ... ""there is no substitute for Cu inches"" ... :wait:

TZ350

22nd December 2013, 07:59

Page 890 .....

First question being, where's the best place to buy a decent crucible, clay,sand etc. around here? (ie Auckland/upper North Island).

Cheers,
Will.
Foseco Ltd
David at 09 267 7658
And
Industrial sands Ltd 09 833 7576

Pouring the metal for the YZ360 Crankcases. These could just a s easily be cases for a bucket.......http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/smilies/thumbsupsmileyanim.gif

Yes you can do that with the Ecotrons system too, but I am not sure myself how its done.

Thank you ... I had no idea where to start so it looks like it was pretty much a self inflicted problem and it was the Ecotrons support team that sorted it. After looking at the data I sent them they sent back a calibration file and map that got me started.

The map is very different, and I will try and compare the old and new calibration files to see if there are any "Subtle" differences in the control setup.

291791

I like their hardware, it comes with its own wiring loom and is so easy to install.

For anyone wanting to try EFI on a small bike this is the Bees Knees for simplicity. The control algorithms appear to be every bit as professional as any top line EFI system.

And when Ecotrons develops their user software into something more friendly then this will be a very affordable and fun package.

I am looking forward to seeing how the other elements of the project, like the ball valve, boost bottle, chamber pressure valve and exhaust port dam work together with the EFI system.

Getting happier, after looking at my recorded data, Ecotrons support sent me a new cal file based on their idea of what I needed and that was good enough to get me going.

After a little adjustment to the global fuel factor I was able to pull some runs where injector-1 crossed over to injector-2 without all the bucking and banging like before.

The Ecotrons system has a really good data logging application where you can select any of the systems measured or calculated variables and log them.

291757

Purple line is the throttle fully open or closed, Green line RPM, Brown intake manifold pressure and Red is load air charge/fuel.

291758

RPM and injector on-time.

Large Pink line is rpm, lower Blue line is injector-1 to 7,000 rpm and the small Red hoop lines are Injector-2 up to 12,000 rpm.

The Pink line is rich and looks a little jagged below 7k and between 7 and 12k it looks better but I think a little lean. It will be very helpful when I get the O2 sensor working.

I was starting to get despondent before, but now an affordable Bucket racing fuel injection system is looking possible.

The proof will be in whether I can tune the map and get the Beast running real sharp.

The hardest thing for me was finding a starting point, if it all works out ok on the dyno, I will post my maps and setup data for anyone else wanting to have a go with their 2T.

Now that I have started putting the new air cooled motor together.

291646

In the interests of science I have brought a data logger and 4 channel thermocouple interface from europerformance http://www.europerformance.co.nz/ who are a certified distributor for Innovate Motorsports and XT Racing and also carry other performance and race parts.

291648

Pocket Data Logger $95 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=677818916

291647 http://www.europerformance.co.nz/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=84

Thermocouple interface $145 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=677819590

291645

The plane is to use the data logger to help with developing some effective ducting for the new 30+ hp air cooled engine.

Maybe posted before, can't remember so here it is, well worth reading.

Detonation Management – The Key to 2stroke Power and Reliability
a technical paper by Harry and Gerhard Klemm of Klemm Vintage Racing Engines

http://www.klemmvintage.com/deto2.htm

291641

291586

Fuel Injected Suzuki 750

291587

A very interesting collection of links to all sorts:- http://teamheronsuzuki.blogspot.nl/2013/12/bsa-bantam-rg500.html

Can your scope give you an FFT of the pickup? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Fourier_transform)

That way you can see a single peak at the current RPM and if it moves the single peak will move up or down the X axis, but if it is randomly missing revolutions you will get several peaks.

Hmmmm. Depending on how much crank inertia you have that can prove problematic. If your tune is spot on then it can run very happily. But if it isn't any sudden accelerations and decelerations can't be accounted for, which can put your spark and injection timing way on the piss, which just makes it all worse.

Single pulse trigger, not a multi tooth with gap type trigger wheel.

291499

I am using the stator plate and pickup (no charging coil) and the flywheel from a KX80

Good thought, I will put the scope on it tommorow,

What type of trigger wheel are you using?

It isn't just running so damn rough that it is kicking the RPM signal around is it? I have seen it before.

Thankyou for the ecouragement, I have had a look at them and it will be where I go next if I have to.

Ecotrons confirm that adding another injector plug wired in parallel on a channel for two injectors is OK, but as its turned out, I have only been using 1 injector on each channel so the extra plug has been a handy measuring point for the scope.

The main problem is that I have seen on the scope screen the ECU dropping pulses just after the cross over point to the bigger second injector. This does not happen when the ECU is driven by the signal generator.

And if I set the system up to run only one injector it will run well past the troublesome cross over point for two injectors so I think the map and pickup are not the problem.

i found it interwrestling.

Rob with the Mirco squirt there is a software program that can self trim the mixtures does the econotrons have a silimilar setup?
http://www.megamanual.com/megatune.htm#autotune
The big potential advantage i can see with an electronic fuel injection set up is you could set it up to be "fuel cooled" to lessen power fade rather than any hp gains......

i had a gander at this the other day re the injector size..
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/calcinjpulse.html
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/fuelinjectors.htm
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/efiharley.htm

So if I have this right there is closed loop feedback that tries to determine if the engine is doing something it is not supposed to be and corrects it, and you don't have control over that feedback? Or have you just not found the window that controls it yet? I take it you mean a hysteresis setting such as 'when acceleration gets over X remove Y much fuel until it is below Z acceleration'?

The more I have seen of the Ecotrons software the more it looks to be way over complicated. The fact that you have to input your injector size alone seems like a hugely redundant feature. Just so you have an idea here is the process we run on the Link:

We have a master fuel control that has a the pulse width control and a master fuel multiplier.

There is a setup sheet that deals with the base timings and setup of pickups and firing order.

A table that is RPM vs TPS for fuelling and ignition timing.

A table for start enrichment.

And that is everything to get the engine to run.
If you can I would highly recommend turning every damn fun feature of the Ecotrons off until you have just the fuel, ignition, and a start correction running. Get rid of any closed loop feedback to eliminate sensor issues. By this stage you should be down to 2 variables that control every point, rather than 10 and then some more that you don't know. Try to do all of your changes just on your fuel and ignition tables, avoiding making changes to the master fuel enrichment and the injector settings. Even if there are still some spots that run rough don't worry about it until you can get the thing to rev to whatever you want it to rev to. Then put in a rev limiter. Then put in acceleration and overrun enrichment. Then do the rest of the closed loop control as you see it needs it. Usability first, then complexity.

If all fails then use the link.

Thank you for the offer, I think if I had of borrowed Flettners Link and with your help I would have been up and running long ago.

but I am keen to get the Ecotrons working properly if I can, then we can afford to fuel inject some of our other bikes too.

I have been able to run the Ecotrons on a single bigger injector to 12,000 rpm which suggests its not lean map settings and I have tried other tricks like under reporting the size of the second injector so the system will run rich after cross over. With the settings rich on one injector the engine will continue to run (badly) but not hunt violently like it still does on two however rich I make the second one.

The problem seems to be that the Ecotrons EFI system with 2T split injection runs and crosses over to injector 2 OK all the way to 13,000+ rpm when its driven by a signal generator.

But when its running live with the motor it becomes unstable after the cross over point at about 8,000 rpm.

The only difference I can see between the signal generator and real running is that with live running the motor forms a feed back loop.

And some how after the cross over point to the larger injector 2 the EFI control becomes unstable and that re enforced instability leads to violent hunting until the average engine rpm drops back below the cross over point and the motor recovers.

The Ecotrons EFI system was originally developed for GY6 CVT scooter engines and in the Ecotrons advanced calibration menu there are any number of hysteresis settings maybe something here is responding to what it thinks is runaway (but normal 2T) acceleration and tries to hard to damp things down.

Anyway that is where my current thinking is.

If you do end up switching to the link I am more than happy to do the loom for you if you pay for materials. And also help you set it up.

Are you sure you aren't seeing interference from unshielded injector leads? I can't quite gather if you hooked the signal gen up and ran it up to 12500 with all the injectors in. But even if you did a potentially weaker signal from the crank pickup may be having a bad time in amongst some noise.

What sort of crank pickup are you using? Reluctor? And a single tooth timing wheel or multi tooth with one missing? Could you switch to a Honeywell GT101DC hall effect? They are mad bulky but produce an awesome clean signal and are very hardy. They are the general standard for motorsport and only set you back about $60 from Motorsport Electronics.

Is your pickup sensor lead shielded? Probs do that if it isn't. Interference is a bitch. As are a lot of things with FI but as soon as you have it right you will love it.

As for the batteries don't even worry as long as the charging system produces enough power to keep up. I think we pull 9A on the racecar to run the engine, a DAQ system and an electric water pump and radiator fan. We have a meaty charging system (160W) which keeps us well in the green. I wouldn't even dream of running total loss on FI.
Actually the standard WR450F is FI and is set up to have the battery removed! It just has a capacitor that charges enough from a kickstart to prime the fuel pump and get the thing to go. Incredibly impressive.

I have a battery charger connected to the battery all the time I am working with the EFI system on the dyno. When I get it going properly I will have to junk the old total loss system and upgrade the bikes electrics to include a decent charging system.

i know when it comes to fuel injection a real good battery is needed , my mate glen that race's f3 has a 1000 dollar battery and is only good for 1 race . thats why i have left the charging system on my aprilia

291468

Connected up a signal generator and oscilloscope to the Beast and had a look at how the EFI injector pulses behaved at a simulated 2,000 to 12,500+ rpm. And then with the motor running.

Five things I learned about my EFI setup today.

1, I don't have to worry about how fast the injectors open/close, and probably all good (modern) injectors are plenty fast enough with a latency < 1.75ms and good for > 16,000+ 2T rpm.

2, That with a simulated engine rpm signal from 2,000 rpm to 12,500+ rpm the oscilloscope showed perfect injector traces and cross over with no problems.

3, That when the bike was run on the dyno the oscilloscope clearly showed the EFI system swapping to the second injector and it running for a bit then as the rpm tried to climb the ECU started dropping pulses and the engine running became increasingly unstable until it was violently surging from injector 1 to injector 2 and then back again.

4, At the swap over point the second injector starts working but the injector driving signal becomes unstable. This only happens when the rpm is changing dynamical and not when the rpm is being changed relatively slowly by hand.

5, It makes me even more sure that its nothing to do with the injectors or whether the Alpha-N map is lean or not, the 2nd injector is coming on. So I think its in the software setup there is a box that should be ticked or un-ticked or some variable with a wrong value. For some reason the system is stable when bench tested with a simulator but with exactly the same settings, unstable under dynamic running conditions.

291465

The oscilloscope trace is taken from the active or -ve side of resistors pushed into the injector plugs. The second injector is actually two injectors in parallel. As there will be a spare second injector plug when I run the motor up it will be easy to get a signal from the second injector for the oscilloscope so I can see what happens at cross over from the smaller slow running injector 1 to the bigger power and rpm injector 2.

291464

Simulated 12,500+ rpm with the signal generator.

291467

Both injectors at a PWM of 3.1ms

291463

Perfect matching traces at 12,500+rpm.

I am measuring on the active (-ve) side of a resistor inserted in the injector plugs. Now it has to be remembered, this is only a trace of the ECU's signal to the injector and it tells us nothing about the shape of the curve of the fuel flowing from the injector during each pulse.

How the EFI system works, is that the ECU supply's 12V to the injector and when it wants it to fire, the ECU closes a switch and grounds the -ve side of the injector to 0V so current flows through the injector coil. This voltage swing to earth or oV is what I am tracing and is the flat line you can see at the bottom. The flat line is 3.1ms long.

The curved upper line is the ECU opening the switch again and the -ve side of the injector rising back up to 12V. The vertical drop is the -ve side being switched to 0V again to turn the injector on once more. The multiple trace lines are not my shaky hand but at 3ms the trace gets re drawn very quickly and the camera catches several images.

291466

The spiky line is the trace from a real injector. The high voltage spike is from the inductance of the injectors coil wanting to keep the current flowing when the ECU opens the switch to turn the injector off.

When the motor was running I could clearly see the trace swap over to the second injector, the second injector would pick up and start to run and the rpm would start to increase just before the ECU began dropping pulses and the motor rpm started swinging ever more wildly between injector 1 and 2.

I did not have enough hands to get pictures or video of this, but it was good to see, as it confirms the problem is not in the EFI units hardware or injectors.

Thanks, the offer is much appreciated.

291457

Slightly different process, compressed air is also used, possibly a peak and hold injector to, for fast opening. But like you say, it makes you think, why can't port injection be done with only one injector too. I will have a go.

291458

just going of a book i read in around 2000 with a kart engine with direct injection just had 1 injector on the head , seen it had no gearbox it would have to run good in its hole rev range, but maybe direct injection works diffient ...dont know

291448

Thanks, but I am a glutton for punishment and want to try and conquer this thing.

Your welcome to borrow my Link ECU, it's not in use at the moment.
Actually I've also got an Ignijet ECU as well, although I don't know anything about it yet, you could try it if you like.

Something is wrong, it just should not be this hard to get sorted.

Dosen't work, too indirect to the cylinder. You will get inconsistant fuel mixtures up to the cylinder, remember the fuel is being deposited as small pockets in the main air streem. How do you know that small pocket will end up in the cylinder accurately every cycle. There is a pumping crank case in the way ( not 100% pumping efficent at below 1/3 throttle ), some fuel stays behind, some fuel goes through to the cylinder. This is where most twostroke EFI setups are comming unstuck.
In fact thats what happens, combustion chamber "sees" rich / lean every few cycles.
Stick to your guns Rob, I'm just not too sure I trust that ECU.

It's that "jolly" ECU ! Abandon it and use a Link. I've got a spare one here for you to use. You will just need a new wiring loom.

Found this handy little site:- http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm

291421

Fuel injector Data

291422

From the table, at 80% duty cycle my IWP023 injector can support 23 crank hp and the IWP043 48hp.

More Numbers:-

13,000rpm
= 217 rps or rp1000ms
217 x 1.5ms latency = 325ms
80% duty cycle = 800ms
800ms-325ms=475ms
475ms/217rpms
= 2.18ms of fully open injection time per revolution
and
If the maximum opening + closing speed of an injector is 1.5ms, then 1.5ms = 666 Hz or 40,000 rpm. So my injectors should be able to easily open and close fast enough for 13,000rpm.

This is the best I have found so far about latency times:- http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=333911

291420

""Assuming reasonable spring loads for most production injectors. Most port injectors have opening times in the 1-1.5ms range and closing times in the .4-.7ms range.""

The thing I would really like to know is, is how fast the the Chinese after market Pico IWP023 and IWP043 fuel injectors can be opened and closed.

Some quick 2T numbers.

13,000 rpm
= 216 rps revolutions per second.
= 75,000 degrees per second.
= 75 degrees per milli second.
= 4.8 milli seconds per revolution.
= 3ms, If it takes the injector 1.5 ms to fully open and 0.3ms to close, then 360 degrees and 3ms is all the time you have for conventional fuel injection @ 13k.

For direct fuel injection after the exhaust port is closed its much less, approximately 80 degrees or 1ms.

Interestingly if blowdown is 36 degrees, then at 13,000 rpm a decent mass of gas leaves the cylinder in approximately 0.5ms.

This project is hampered by my inexperience with EFI, I have no idea of what can be realistically expected from an injector. So I don't really know if my switching problem is a hardware or software/setup issue.

Not what I wanted but interesting, Scraped from the net:- http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=333911

Fuel injector latency and offset

Short story in a nutshell: -

The 'Effective Injection Pulsewidth' is the time that the injector is held open, during which fuel flows at the static flow rate at that condition [F=(dp over injector tip, rated flowrate of injector)]

As the injector driver goes 'on' there is a finite time for the flow to ramp from zero to full, likewise when the driver goes 'off' there is a finite time for the flow to ramp down to next to nothing.

This total time is the latency, confusingly only the initial ramp is referred to as 'the latency' as this is the time between on & full flow with the the ramp down being described as 'lag'.

Long story .....

In the world of programmable ECU's, injector latency, sometimes referred to as offset, is the term that is used that correlates to opening time of the injector. (To an injector design engineer, Opening time is different than offset, as Dave points out. In the SAE spec he references, it defines both, and how to calculate them. In my experience, the ECU manufacturers use this term interchangeably. Latency is really "opening time" = the time elapsed from the start of the logic pulse, to the start of fuel delivery from the injector. In a port injector, this is a function of many design parameters and calibration spring load in the injector used. It's also directly affected by the voltage supplied to the injector by the driver and the operating delta pressure across the injector. Peak and Hold driven injectors are less affected by the battery voltage, compared with saturated drive injectors, but they are still affected.

For example, when I calibrated my 3.8L Porsche club racer with a MOTEC controller, I needed the effective opening time at the dynamic calibration point for a range of battery voltages from 6-16V. I got opening times measured at 1V increments, and used that for programming the look-up table in the ECU.

Dave is correct about closing times being very important in having good linearity. Closing time is not as important to the controller, however, as it primarily impacts the effective duration of injection. (i.e. fuel keeps being delivered after the logic pulse ends) I say it's "not as important" because most ECU's now have so much control authority than they can adjust (lengthen or shorten) the pulse width being commanded of the injector by a large amount, and the effective duration of injection is sort of lost in the noise, as long as it's not excessive. Modern ECU drivers for high impedance injectors employ a zener diode to shunt the flyback current, which allows the magnetic field to collapse very quickly after the drive pulse ends. Assuming reasonable spring loads for most production injectors, most port injectors have closing times in the .4-.7ms range. The important part is that it needs to be CONSISTENT, in which case the ECU's capabilities mask it, making it SEEM unimportant. Opening time, or latency, is more important to the ECU from a timing perspective, to get the fuel shot delivered at the appropriate time. Since most port injectors have opening times in the 1-1.5ms range, this is more critical to overall timing.

Fuel injector latency and offset

This is a value calculated by measuring static and dynamic flow rates or you can also do a linear regression through a series of dynamic flow points such as 3, 4, 5, 6 & 7 ms at 10 ms pulse repetition period (100 Hz). Check out SAE spec J1832 for the standard definition.

If you plot flow on the vertical axis and pulsewidth on the horizontal axis the x-intercept is the offset or dead time in milliseconds. This is a function roughly of both the opening time and the closing time but it's more complicated than that because the flow/lift curve and pintle bounce also contribute. Closing time is very important in getting good linearity to small duration of injection.

my experience in automotive fuel systems has shown that many aftermarket manufacturers don't utilize the standards and don't always use correct terminology. In the case of aftermarket ECU manufacturers, they act like they have never looked at an SAE specification for an injector and create all sorts of differing terms for things that are already well defined. I've run into this before in the case of latency, vs. the correct term, "Injector Opening Time". I've also seen offset misused, which has a very specific mathematical definition per SAE. It is sometimes misapplied when the aftermarket manufacturer really means "Injector Opening Time"

Total dwell seat to seat is defined by SAE as "Effective Duration of Injection". That is equal to (in simple terms) (the duration of the logic pulse applied)-(opening time)+(closing time) typically referred to in ms. So, for a port injector with a 1.25ms opening time, and a 0.50ms closing time, the effective duration of injection for a 3.00 ms injection pulse is 2.25ms. Dwell at full flow isn't really much different. Good port fuel injectors are designed so that the transit times from fully closed to fully open for the armature/ball, or armature/pintle, or just armature in the case of a plate style injector are very fast relative to the logic pulses. These are typically on the order of 50 microseconds or less; the best designs are a lot less.

Sensible, and works for a 4T but the problem I face with my 2T is that an injector small enough for starting and clean running at low rpm is to small when the engine gets on the pipe so you have to have two different sized injectors and swap between them for high and low speed running.

I think my real problem is in finding injectors dynamic enough to handle what would be 28,000 rpm in 4T terms.

It might be that I will have to run two injectors in parallel firing on alternate cycles.

second thing run a extra butterfly and servo operate it .. run it as a overide

just go simple, 1 injector at the body good fuel mixing, well thats what i would do

291415291416291417

Tried some original Ecotrons fuel injectors yesterday. Its all a bit tight so I had to make a new setup for them and cut the plastic away from around the top feed so that the plug and fuel barb could be rotated in different directions.

Unfortunately nothing improved, the engine still behaves badly at the swap over point around 8,000 rpm. 8,000rpm is of course 16,000 4T rpm. On the test bench and oscilloscope everything looks to be working OK so I am not sure if its a software problem or the injectors just can't keep up.

For Xmas I was given a complete set of top feed Alpha Sud fuel rails, regulators and 14mm injectors. This one has the injectors retained in the fuel rail by a clip so I can easily make a test rig and plug in my Pico IWP injectors.

I will now be able to study and measure the fuel delivery behavior of the injectors under real conditions and see whats happening at the point where the EFI system swaps from injector 1 to injector 2.

I am off to find SAE standard J1832 to see what it has to say about evaluating low pressure automotive fuel injectors.

including Burts Velo, coincidentally "The worlds fastest Velocette"

There is the Southward car musem and its collection of motorcycles. http://www.southwardcarmuseum.co.nz/gallery.html

Another one of those fantastic stores:-

This Hardware Store in Invercargil is a real gem, its a real hardware store with a fantastic collection of bikes and Burt Munro Indian memorabilia.

E Hayes ltd http://www.ehayes.co.nz/Hayes-Motorworks-Collection/Hayes-motorworks-collection-__I.214

291294 Chapter 24 Miniature RR (Buckets)

F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc are restricted to carburation equivalent to a single 24mm carburetor.

291295 Appendix D Championship Classes, Solo motorcycles shall have :-

F4
2 stroke 55 -100cc.
2 stroke 55 - 125cc air cooled.
4 stroke 55 -150cc.

So you have to look in at least two places to read the rules covering 125cc F4 2T's. And liquid cooled is not mentioned, only the term "air cooled" is used, and does air cooled mean you can't use a drop of oil to thermally connect a heat source to its cooling element?

This interests me as I intend using a lot of copper wire and copper dust wetted with oil for themal contact, to transport heat from its source to the heat sinks.

291288

The best quote and story of them all has to be from here.

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/dontpaymeenuff.htm

There is the Southward car musem and its collection of motorcycles. http://www.southwardcarmuseum.co.nz/gallery.html

283657

A real air cooled 2-Stroke, Geff Perrys TR500R and Trophies

283653

And Ron Grants water cooled TR750R

Work had me in Greymouth. While I was there I meet Robin Gray and he showed me around his Hose and Hydralic stor which is also an Aladins cave of interesting bikes and things. With lots of interesting old bits and bobs like miners helmets, lamps, hand made model trains and steam engines and an old BSA in the window.

264346

Another one of those fantastic stores:-

This Hardware Store in Invercargil is a real gem, its a real hardware store with a fantastic collection of bikes and Burt Munro Indian memorabilia.

E Hayes ltd http://www.ehayes.co.nz/Hayes-Motorworks-Collection/Hayes-motorworks-collection-__I.214

Found this handy little site:- http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm

291421

Fuel injector Data

291422

From the table, at 80% duty cycle my IWP023 injector can support 23 crank hp and the IWP043 48hp.

TZ350

22nd December 2013, 08:02

I have some shagged old style ones you could have for a beer.

Thanks ...... :drinknsin

Yow Ling

22nd December 2013, 08:25

What is the plating like in the cylinder you have ? Were you going to have it replated after you bore it or sleeve it?
One is easy and expensive the other is hard but cheap.
Te aircooled RG150 I have here is sleeved down from 150, if you try to sleeve the VJ22 you will probably need to bore +5mm just to be left with a 1.75mm thick sleeve, which could cause a problem with the bridge overheating.
If your existing plating is ok , I would go with that and 124cc

TZ350

22nd December 2013, 08:52

What is the plating like in the cylinder you have ? If your existing plating is ok , I would go with that and 124cc

The plating is usable and I was going to try it as is to test the concept of air cooling a water cooled cylinder. If it all works and I want to re plate I was going to go to the maximum oversize allowed.

husaberg

22nd December 2013, 08:53

And that is only true if you enlarge all port widths by the (new bore / old bore) ratio.
Just boring out a cylinder will not alter the angle.areas; it will only decrease the specific angle.areas and it will force you to lower the revs if you wish to keep the original time.areas. In short: the same power with less revs. But the larger bore will worsen the combustion chamber shape; combustion will be slower and it will heat a larger piston crown area, increasing the deto risk.
Right!

As power is proportional to the percentage increase in bore diameter for a bored out two stroke cylinder the best you can hope for is an increase in power of 2.7 % for a 57.5 mm bore v's a 56 mm bore. 100 x ( 57.5 - 56.0 ) / 56.0

Seems like an expensive modification for such a small potential power increase!

What about go the other direction and sleeve down the cylinder to the maximum allowable capacity for a "100 cc" watercooled engine? This would also move your bore/stroke ratio in the right direction.
not only that but the carb needs to be bigger etc.

Ok not such a great potential power increase ... :thud:

....... right ... now put your hand up, whoever said ""there is no substitute for Cu inches"" !!!! ... :wait:

but as people have said the result would be similar with a 100cc LC, but you should be able to achieve a wider spread of power with the extra cc's i am talking 125 vs 100cc. That could be quite an advantage when most of your races are short duration on a kart track.
ESP since there are many 125cc 2 strokes with a PV other than Pete Jones's one Yow has.

That aside it would be cheaper for you to stroke to get to the max engine size for overbores etc it as i guess it has a silly pin size anyway... does it?

richban

22nd December 2013, 08:55

Thanks ...... :drinknsin

Know worries I will try find them.

Check the Xmas holiday project.

291286291287

Ocean1

22nd December 2013, 09:04

....... right!!!! ... now put your hand up, whoever said ... ""there is no substitute for Cu inches"" ... :wait:

Smokey Yunick?

TZ350

22nd December 2013, 09:42

Smokey Yunick?

Yep ... good old smokey.

Top 50 quotes .... from http://www.ridelust.com/the-50-greatest-automotive-quotes-of-all-time/

1. To finish first, you must first finish. – Juan Manuel Fangio 2. Nobody remembers the guy who finished second but the guy who finished second. – Bobby Unser

3. The winner ain’t the one with the fastest car, it’s the one who refuses to lose. – Dale Earnhardt

http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/DaleEnzo.jpg (http://www.ridelust.com/the-50-greatest-automotive-quotes-of-all-time/daleenzo/)

4. You win some, you lose some, you wreck some. – Dale Ernhardt Sr.

5. Aerodynamics are for people who can’t build engines. – Enzo Ferrari

6. The client is not always right. – Enzo Ferrari

http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/FoxErndtMurry.jpg (http://www.ridelust.com/the-50-greatest-automotive-quotes-of-all-time/foxerndtmurry/)

7. If you think the last 4 words of the national anthem are gentlemen, start your engines, you might be a redneck. – Jeff Foxworthy.

8. Need to tie some kerosene rags around his ankles so the ants don’t eat his candy #$@ - Dale Earnhardt speaking of Mark Martin.

9. The lead car is absolutely unique, except for the one behind it which is identical. – F1 commentator Murray Walker.

http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/DuckStewCro.jpg (http://www.ridelust.com/the-50-greatest-automotive-quotes-of-all-time/duckstewcro/)

10. Turbochargers are for people who cant build engines. – Keith Duckworth

11. Here Kitty Kitty Kitty (http://viglink.pgpartner.com/rd.php?r=9450&m=1176449277&q=n&rdgt=1387558149&it=1387730949&et=1388162949&priceret=41.50&pg=~~3&k=12db84163f2f9512c223bafc1ea2117a&source=feed&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftracking.searchmarketing.com%2Fcl ick.asp%3Faid%3D1909047798&st=feed&mt=~~~~~~~~n~~~)! - Tony Stewart

12. We broke something, I think it was traction… – Carl Edwards after getting spun out by Dale Jr. at Michigan

http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/HemMossThomp.jpg (http://www.ridelust.com/the-50-greatest-automotive-quotes-of-all-time/hemmossthomp/)
13. Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports… all the others are games. – Ernest Hemingway
14. Calling upon my years of experience, I froze at the controls. – Stirling Moss
15. Faster, faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death… – Hunter Thompson
http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/SennaAndreChild.jpg (http://www.ridelust.com/the-50-greatest-automotive-quotes-of-all-time/sennaandrechild/)

16. I don’t know driving in another way which isn’t risky. Each one has to improve himself. Each driver has its limit. My limit is a little bit further than other’s. - Ayrton Senna

17. It is amazing how may drivers, even at the Formula One Level, think that the brakes are for slowing the car down. – Mario Andretti

18. Once you’ve raced, you never forget it…and you never get over it. - Richard Childress (http://viglink.pgpartner.com/rd.php?r=5316&m=973227106&q=n&rdgt=1387553866&it=1387726666&et=1388158666&priceret=8.00&pg=~~3&k=793922d511cba8e51c0da76681b82027&source=feed&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fdp%2FB0052G6196% 2Fref%3Dasc_df_B0052G61962789749%3Fsmid%3DA3S6IR9M PKLGY%26tag%3Dpgmp-1536-01-20%26linkCode%3Dasn%26creative%3D395109%26creative ASIN%3DB0052G6196&st=feed&mt=~~~~~~~~n~~~)

http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/EnzoVukMoss.jpg (http://www.ridelust.com/the-50-greatest-automotive-quotes-of-all-time/enzovukmoss/)

19. Race cars are neither beautiful nor ugly. They become beautiful when they win. – Enzo Ferrari

20. There’s no secret. You just press the accelerator to the floor and steer left. – Bill Vukovich

21. To achieve anything in this game you must be prepare to dabble in the boundary of disaster. - Sterling Moss

http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/MossEnzoAllison.jpg (http://www.ridelust.com/the-50-greatest-automotive-quotes-of-all-time/mossenzoallison/)

22. To achieve anything in this game you must be prepare to dabble in the boundary of disaster. – Sterling Moss

23. What’s behind you doesn’t matter. – Enzo Ferrari

24. When you win a race your on top that day, so take it for what its worth, have a good time and party, cause the next day when you get out of bed, the meter goes back to zero again. - Bobby Allison

http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/HodJones.jpg (http://www.ridelust.com/the-50-greatest-automotive-quotes-of-all-time/hodjones/)

25. No, no, he didn’t slam you, he didn’t bump you, he didn’t nudge you… he *rubbed* you. And rubbin, son, is racin’. – Harry Hogge, Days of Thunder

26. If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

27. If you’re in control, you’re not going fast enough. – Parnelli Jones

http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/BugattiDunnClarkson.jpg (http://www.ridelust.com/the-50-greatest-automotive-quotes-of-all-time/bugattidunnclarkson/)

28. Mr. Bentley – He builds fast trucks. – Ettore Bugatti

29. Why worry about death, it’ll come sooner or later. - Jim Dunn

30. Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary… that’s what gets you. – Jeremy Clarkson

http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/FordYunikTrickle.jpg (http://www.ridelust.com/the-50-greatest-automotive-quotes-of-all-time/fordyuniktrickle/)

31. Auto racing began 5 minutes after the second car was built. - Henry Ford

32. As far as cheating goes, they’ll never stop it. The only way it can be done successfully, only one person can know about it. – Smokey Yunick

33. It’s like flying jet fighters in a gymnasium - Dick Trickle was asked what racing at Windchester Speedway was like.
http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/MorganBaker.jpg (http://www.ridelust.com/the-50-greatest-automotive-quotes-of-all-time/morganbaker/)

34. You can’t fix stupid - Larry Morgan, NHRA Pro Stock driver

35. You can tell that you’re in trouble when you feel the air on the back of your neck instead of in your face. - Buddy Baker

36. I got hit in the head pretty hard. My clock ran backwards for two years. - Buddy Baker

http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/BakerRobertsLemons.jpg (http://www.ridelust.com/the-50-greatest-automotive-quotes-of-all-time/bakerrobertslemons/)

37. He ran out of talent about halfway through the corner. – Buddy Baker

38. After the third flip, I lost control………… - Don Roberts after crashing in the Jade Grenade at New England Dragway in 1975.

39. We worked 80 hour weeks for 30 years to keep from having to get a real job. – Tom Lemon’s comment on the rigors of being a drag racing.

http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/GuilkBarryVille.jpg (http://www.ridelust.com/the-50-greatest-automotive-quotes-of-all-time/guilkbarryville/)

40. It’s basically the same, just darker. - Alan Kulwicki, on racing Saturday nights as opposed to Sunday afternoons.

41. Auto racing is boring except when a car is going at least 172 miles per hour upside down. - Dave Barry

42. If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari. – Gilles Villeneuve

http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/WalkStuckSaid.jpg (http://www.ridelust.com/the-50-greatest-automotive-quotes-of-all-time/walkstucksaid/)

43. There are seven winners of the Monaco Grand Prix (http://viglink.pgpartner.com/rd.php?r=5316&m=1306143845&q=n&rdgt=1387560371&it=1387733171&et=1388165171&priceret=20.00&pg=~~3&k=42e761f5befdddcc232fa05d741756d1&source=feed&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fdp%2FB00F3VLLMW% 2Fref%3Dasc_df_B00F3VLLMW2790527%3Fsmid%3DA3HUKC16 CXR7CQ%26tag%3Dpgmp-1585-01-20%26linkCode%3Dasn%26creative%3D395109%26creative ASIN%3DB00F3VLLMW&st=feed&mt=~~~~~~~~n~~~) on the starting line today, and four of them are Michael Schumacher. – Murray Walker

44. When I raced a car last it was at a time when sex was safe and racing was dangerous. Now, it’s the other way round. - Hans Stuck

45. I love this kind of racing, (but) these guys sure change their personalities in race mode. They’re like Doberman Pinschers (http://viglink.pgpartner.com/rd.php?r=5316&m=1421536431&q=n&rdgt=1387563829&it=1387736629&et=1388168629&priceret=10.99&pg=~~3&k=4833a063f9debd837dba8b91d57b1b52&source=feed&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fdp%2FB003DN6EQK% 2Fref%3Dasc_df_B003DN6EQK2884025%3Fsmid%3DA1ROII6U FO65GP%26tag%3Dpgmp-438-01-20%26linkCode%3Dasn%26creative%3D395109%26creative ASIN%3DB003DN6EQK&st=feed&mt=~~~~~~~~n~~~) with a hand grenade in their mouths. – Road racer Boris Said speaking of NEXTEL Cup drivers.

http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/AndrettiDaMattJohnson.jpg (http://www.ridelust.com/the-50-greatest-automotive-quotes-of-all-time/andrettidamattjohnson/)

46. The crashes people remember, but drivers remember the near misses. – Mario Andretti

47. When I started racing my father told me, ‘Cristiano, nobody has three balls but some people have two very good ones. - Cristiano Da Matta

48. Moonshiners put more time, energy, thought, and love into their cars than any racer ever will. Lose on the track, and you go home. Lose with a load of whiskey, and you go to jail. – Junior Johnson, NASCAR legend, and one time whiskey runner.
http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/ThompsonHill.jpg (http://www.ridelust.com/the-50-greatest-automotive-quotes-of-all-time/thompsonhill/)

49. There have been other tracks that separated the men from the boys. This is the track that will separate the brave from the weak after the boys are gone. – Driver Jimmy Thompson speaking about Daytona International Speedway (http://viglink.pgpartner.com/rd.php?r=2379&m=976419846&q=n&rdgt=1387553923&it=1387726723&et=1388158723&priceret=24.89&pg=~~3&k=168a00aeb5e98c768a2afbe6729cc999&source=feed&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fdp%2FB0056OBA1S% 2Fref%3Dasc_df_B0056OBA1S2846740%3Fsmid%3DA4SW4QHC IJ41H%26tag%3Dpgmpx-1536-01-20%26linkCode%3Dasn%26creative%3D395133%26creative ASIN%3DB0056OBA1S&st=feed&mt=~~~~~~~~n~~~).

50. Winning is everything. The only ones who remember you when you come second are your wife and your dog. – Damon Hill

TZ350

22nd December 2013, 09:48

291288

The best quote and story of them all has to be from here.

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/dontpaymeenuff.htm

teriks

22nd December 2013, 10:06

I think the rule says liquid.........
I have mentioned Paraffin wax before as it is common solid at room temp and during phase change it can buffer huge amounts of heat.
Rob have a gander at this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-change_material

Silver is not that dear is it..... Norton used it on the Works 500's and i think so did AJS with the Porcupine.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-conductivity-d_429.html
Ah..eeeh..well...ehrr.. call it gas cooled then, since the was majority of the heat transport would be vapor moving from a hot surface to a cooler surface. ;-)

Next option, fill with cerrotru or similar low melt temp metal alloy, together with the copper wire thing.
The thermal conductivity of those metals are quite poor, but it might give a better thermal coupling to the cylinder surface than thermal paste + oil.

Or, it could be used as the phase change material in husabergs post. You might even end up with some convection, but then there's the liquid thing again.

husaberg

22nd December 2013, 10:35

http://www.kevinschwantz.com/book-pages/images/pg%20184.jpg
Kevin Schwantz' "Wait 'til you see God-then brake!"

TZ350

22nd December 2013, 11:09

291294 Chapter 24 Miniature RR (Buckets)

F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc are restricted to carburation equivalent to a single 24mm carburetor.

291295 Appendix D Championship Classes, Solo motorcycles shall have :-

F4
2 stroke 55 -100cc.
2 stroke 55 - 125cc air cooled.
4 stroke 55 -150cc.

So you have to look in at least two places to read the rules covering 125cc F4 2T's. And liquid cooled is not mentioned, only the term "air cooled" is used, and does air cooled mean you can't use a drop of oil to thermally connect a heat source to its cooling element?

This interests me as I intend using a lot of copper wire and copper dust wetted with oil for themal contact, to transport heat from its source to the heat sinks.

Grumph

22nd December 2013, 12:04

We had the same philosophical discussion years ago in Speedway. They insisted on air cooled motors for TQ's but given most were using big oil coolers anyway, when someone tried an air/oil GSXR 750 no one could complain.

Ironic really as most were internally cooled by the lavish use of Methanol.....

husaberg

22nd December 2013, 12:09

Bravo Bob....... but conversely as it is over 104cc it will therefor have to be air cooled..... funny enough i remember Suzuki making a big deal in the early 80's over the GSXR's cooling system.;)

Flettner

22nd December 2013, 12:10

Ultimatly they are all air cooled. What cools the radiator? The liquid is only a heat transfer system.

jasonu

22nd December 2013, 12:13

Flettner

22nd December 2013, 12:57

What if air is cold enough to be liquid?

Yow Ling

22nd December 2013, 13:04

detail of aircooled rg150 barrel

291298

husaberg

22nd December 2013, 13:04

What if air is cold enough to be liquid?

Air is 80% Nitrogen Neil.........boils -196 degrees or so..........
Oxygen boils at -182c
CO2 -56c
I would be very interesting in seeing a how an Air cooled head is copy cast and how to make a tool for a air cooled cylinder to say go around one of these.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=278936&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1361578189

Flettner

22nd December 2013, 13:36

The head is easy, all my 350 heads have been cast at Thames. The cylinder? I've never cast an air cooled one, I've got the beginnings of patterns here to cast a 350 cylinder ( air cooled ) with modern porting inside but have never gone any further. Too busy dicking around with sleeves etc. I'm sure it would be not a big deal. The mould to make the sand mould ( outside ) would need to be steel I think and the core baked in shell sand. Or in this case lost wax system, maybe? A die is still needed to make the wax original anyway.
Surely a proper ( modern ) constructed 100 cc water cooled would be the go? Perhaps making it a two cylinder with vairable rotary valves.
If E85 were legal, then air cooled would be less of a problem. Internal liquid / vapor cooling.
Having the original core boxes for that cylinder ( you show in the picture ) would be a big help.

kel

22nd December 2013, 13:52

Bit if you are using a drop of oil to thermally connect a heat source to its cooling element then is it now not air cooled?

The object would no longer be direct cooled, it can still be air cooled.
I'm with Neil on this one.

TZ350

22nd December 2013, 14:41

detail of aircooled rg150 barrel

291298

Thats is very clever.

I would be very interesting in seeing a how an Air cooled head is copy cast and how to make a tool for a air cooled cylinder to say go around one of these.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=278936&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1361578189

The head is easy, all my 350 heads have been cast at Thames. The cylinder? I've never cast an air cooled one. Having the original core boxes for that cylinder ( you show in the picture ) would be a big help.

I would love an air cooled cylinder with deep fining and a modern port layout.

291307

I am an air cooled sort of guy.

mr bucketracer

22nd December 2013, 15:51

the foundery here have a rotating platform when poring air cooled cylinders to fling out the aluminum, seems to work a treat

Ocean1

22nd December 2013, 16:00

A die is still needed to make the wax original anyway.

Nah, just print it. There's even a dirt cheap kit to make one... :http://www.theshedmag.co.nz/online/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage-ask.tpl&product_id=198&category_id=1

Ocean1

22nd December 2013, 16:02

the foundery here have a rotating platform when poring air cooled cylinders to fling out the aluminum, seems to work a treat

Most SG iron liners are centrifugally cast, makes for less porosity.

Flettner

22nd December 2013, 16:32

Nah, just print it. There's even a dirt cheap kit to make one... :http://www.theshedmag.co.nz/online/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage-ask.tpl&product_id=198&category_id=1

My mistake, I afraid I'm still a little old school. I hate those 3D printers but perhaps there is a use for them in printing wax? Can they print wax? Perhaps I could CNC 3D machine a pattern direct, out of wax? No, just better off machining a steel die for shell sand. No, perhaps better off machining a male in carbon and spark eroding into steel. Cover the steel mould in ceramic paint and you have a die cast setup, pour straight in the steel die with hard sand cores locked inside, that way we could make lots and lots of them real quick!
In reality I'm sure it could be done with a wood mould making CO2 sand outer. Split the fins and make each one separate and glue together, layer ( fin ) after layer ( to make the wood mould ) paying great attention to surface finish and enough taper to make the mould slide appart with out sticking.
Actualy just get one of those 3D metal printers Frits has.

Ocean1

22nd December 2013, 16:58

My mistake, I afraid I'm still a little old school. I hate those 3D printers but perhaps there is a use for them in printing wax? Can they print wax? Perhaps I could CNC 3D machine a pattern direct, out of wax? No, just better off machining a steel die for shell sand. No, perhaps better off machining a male in carbon and spark eroding into steel. Cover the steel mould in ceramic paint and you have a die cast setup, pour straight in the steel die with hard sand cores locked inside, that way we could make lots and lots of them real quick!
In reality I'm sure it could be done with a wood mould making CO2 sand outer. Split the fins and make each one separate and glue together, layer ( fin ) after layer ( to make the wood mould ) paying great attention to surface finish and enough taper to make the mould slide appart with out sticking.
Actualy just get one of those 3D metal printers Frits has.

My school's older than yours. :girlfight:

And yeah, you can print wax, jewellery industry has been doing it for a while. Amazing resolution too.

Don't know what toys Frits has. But quite a while ago I got involved on the outskirts of the development of printing metal powders. It was just market-ready then, with a limited range of tool steels and Ti. The one major advantage, of course is the ability to make hollow shapes impossible for any other process. I believe Volvo make pump impellors using the system, but I'd be surprised if they've ironed the wrinkles so far yet as to allow printing 7000 series aluminium.

Hideously expensive, of course. But then, so was printing ink when I were a nipper...

husaberg

22nd December 2013, 17:02

Surely a proper ( modern ) constructed 100 cc water cooled would be the go?
I agree i was more meaning for Robs

Having the original core boxes for that cylinder ( you show in the picture ) would be a big help.

You have the pics in your email somewhere...........;)

husaberg

22nd December 2013, 17:10

My mistake, I afraid I'm still a little old school.
In reality I'm sure it could be done with a wood mould making CO2 sand outer. Split the fins and make each one separate and glue together, layer ( fin ) after layer ( to make the wood mould ) paying great attention to surface finish and enough taper to make the mould slide appart with out sticking.
Actualy just get one of those 3D metal printers Frits has.

I have only seen a couple of pics of aircooled cylinder males one for a Devimead A65 jumbo and another for a Older excelsior V twin.
My little musing was to cut open an old MX cylinder and use that to make one and add filler where necessary. using the Sprilia like sand core.

this thread i was following on Pit lane was impressive on its use of technology.
http://www.pit-lane.biz/t3187-50cc-self-designed-50cc-race-engine?highlight=50cc+ktm

Flettner

22nd December 2013, 18:23

My school's older than yours. :girlfight:

And yeah, you can print wax, jewellery industry has been doing it for a while. Amazing resolution too.

Don't know what toys Frits has. But quite a while ago I got involved on the outskirts of the development of printing metal powders. It was just market-ready then, with a limited range of tool steels and Ti. The one major advantage, of course is the ability to make hollow shapes impossible for any other process. I believe Volvo make pump impellors using the system, but I'd be surprised if they've ironed the wrinkles so far yet as to allow printing 7000 series aluminium.

Hideously expensive, of course. But then, so was printing ink when I were a nipper...

Just that I got cornered at the last Emex show by several 3D printer salesmen trying to sell me "the next big thing". What use is it I would ask? Next I would be show all these plastic trinkets, a plastic bearing no less. What use is it I would say again? You could show your customers a prototype of your production model ( a bearing ). I said, I would just show them a real bearing, you know, one that they could use. What use is it showing customers somthing that we couldn't produce on the CNC ( the same machine we would use for production ). What use is a junk prototype of a part we would make in the CNC anyway, and actaly use.
I have customers now comming to me to make parts that they have tried to make on their 3D printer, most wondering why they bought the useless things in the first place. And did I mention how slow they are!
Hey thats just me.

Ocean1

22nd December 2013, 18:36

I have customers now comming to me to make parts that they have tried to make on their 3D printer, most wondering why they bought the useless things in the first place.

Meh, lots of guys can use the right tool for the job...

cotswold

22nd December 2013, 20:22

Just out of interest here a Dyno pull done on my RS125 Aprilia, it's stock bar the Gianelli pipe.
Is this the why the foul strokes boys won't let us have liquid cooled 125's ? :whistle:

Drew

22nd December 2013, 20:38

Isn't TZ getting that out of an old air cooled bike with a 24mm carb?

cotswold

22nd December 2013, 20:41

Isn't TZ getting that out of an old air cooled bike with a 24mm carb?

He sure is but only after years of effort, can you imagine where the line would stop if he took to one that has 30 from stock
rather than 12?

TZ350

22nd December 2013, 20:41

Just out of interest here a Dyno pull done on my RS125 Aprilia, it's stock bar the Gianelli pipe.

I have one of those RS125 cylinders, if the water cooled to air cooled conversion works out I might give the Aprilia cylinder with a TF bottom end a go too.

Isn't TZ getting that out of an old air cooled bike with a 24mm carb?

Best of 31 hp, but not all that reliably, although that could be about to change.

291334

Frits Overmars

22nd December 2013, 23:33

...I hate those 3D printers but perhaps there is a use for them in printing wax? Can they print wax? Perhaps I could CNC 3D machine a pattern direct, out of wax? No, just better off machining a steel die for shell sand. No, perhaps better off machining a male in carbon and spark eroding into steel. Cover the steel mould in ceramic paint and you have a die cast setup, pour straight in the steel die with hard sand cores locked inside, that way we could make lots and lots of them real quick!Yes, they can print wax. They can even print sand:
291315
Notice the cooling ducts inside the transfer curvatures? Try making that in a steel die (come to think of it: I wouldn't put it past you...)

Actually just get one of those 3D metal printers Frits has.I wish! I don't own it; I just was lucky enough to run into one at the university of Dresden, Germany. So far they had only used it for titanium (for hip replacement parts) and they wanted to acquire some experience with light alloys, preferably producing something that would be impossible to produce any other way, so they could say: 'Hey, look!'
And there I was, right time, right place, right project. My exhaust and transfer duct designs were a piece of cake, but I had some wild ideas about cooling ducts everywhere....
By the way: it's not 3D printing. It's not printing at all; it's selective laser melting. With printing you deposit material; with melting the material is already there, in powder form. You just melt it where you want it solid.

Frits Overmars

22nd December 2013, 23:43

@TZ350: no matter what you use to fill the coolant volume of a liquid-cooled cylinder, heat transport will always be far worse when the cooling medium is stationary. Liquid cooling works not because of the liquid but because of the flow. Heat moving through any metal is much, much slower than heat carried from one place to another by a moving medium.

Muciek

23rd December 2013, 00:20

If you are looking for huge air cooled radiator check out CZ 516 cylinders and head , they are cheap and they have pressed in liners.
http://www.kartsandparts.ca/store/images/T/PB070015.JPG

http://www.kartsandparts.ca/store/images/T/b9_1_b.jpg

Frits Overmars

23rd December 2013, 01:28

they are cheap and they have pressed in liners. Cylinders with pressed-in liners just cannot be cheap enough. Read and shudder: http://www.gruppofrattura.it/pdf/ext/MS&T/Vol.6%20No2/001.pdf

Muciek

23rd December 2013, 02:17

Nice pdf I didn't know it's such a big difference between cast in liner and pressed one ;) I was wondering why TZ wouldn't just bore out old liner weld some material to radiator then make some 3 port EX with reliable bridges ect., but this is my answer I think;)

husaberg

23rd December 2013, 05:32

sand printing I had seen this a while back not the same as a craftsman makings his own. lots of materials required, but i can see much like CNC vs manual lathe work. Of course you need the 3D model but we are an ipod generation.........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8MaVaqNr3U

TZ350

23rd December 2013, 05:48

Liquid cooling works not because of the liquid but because of the flow. Heat moving through any metal is much, much slower than heat carried from one place to another by a moving medium.

Yes I understand that.... but

291316

We have to do our best with what we have chosen, follies of youth and all that ....... :laugh:

291317

wobbly

23rd December 2013, 07:02

Generating the 3D models is the part that is ignored by many when talking about creating parts with printers/laser/CNC technology.
This is a huge part of the overall time consumed in any digital driven process ,as you must create a perfect 3D replica on the screen of any part you need to make, no
matter what the end process.
And sadly the same thing applies to 3D modelling as it does to old school CNC machining.
In my opinion it is all but impossible to be a "good " CNC operator unless you have had a good grounding in the art of manual machining.
All that being part of the iPod generation means is that you are good at pressing buttons quickly, and has nothing to do with being able to create an engineering part
that has everything in the right place AND structural integrity etc etc, and dont get me into the aesthetics discussion or I really go off.
The CAD guys at Aprilia created some really superb work on the screen, that was then translated into beautiful solid engineering from people with the vision of what it should "do " like Jan.
You have to have all the elements in place to do this type of work well - the overall vision, the tech expertise in design, the modelling skills and finally the machining skills to translate all the hours of unseen work into
the final product, none of it is easy as is proven by the fact so few get it right.

F5 Dave

23rd December 2013, 10:10

Cylinders with pressed-in liners just cannot be cheap enough. Read and shudder: http://www.gruppofrattura.it/pdf/ext/MS&T/Vol.6 No2/001.pdf

Thanks for the read, but what I take away from that is from a thermal conductivity point of view, it would seem iron liners are pretty poor even if cast in. In fact, - if you make a reasonable job of pressing one in, you might outperform a bad design of cast in iron liner. That I did not expect. I would have though pressed in would have been considerably worse.

If you consider that you can't get better than a straight iron liner if you are using one (ie old engines like we use), the casting ranged from 92%-51% efficent, a huge swing. The pressed in one at 66% doesn't seem so bad. Well at least by comparison.

tangent 2:
What it didn't make clear was in real life these ally liners would be plated. Where these I wonder? or is there a further dissimilar metal junction loss to be considered?

tangent 3:
And why, why didn't they test an ally liner pressed into an ally casting? That would have shown if, being that iron bores are a problem there is any point of making a replacement ally liner.

Muciek

23rd December 2013, 11:37

Here's one poor casting :D http://imgur.com/qyl5kKq,SIXw4lD,Sa7shYd,oo6t2xo
The CZ ones were far better , by cheap I meant you can buy them now for 25$ or so. You can always weld them and get plated :shifty:

Ocean1

23rd December 2013, 12:50

TZ350

23rd December 2013, 13:13

100cc H2o

291337

Well it just might be my lucky day, I was given this 80cc, 50mm big bore Malossie Sport cylinder.

291338

It looks like there would be enough room to really widen the rear B ports and get a close approximation of the Aprilia 125's porting layout.

291336

Weld an 8mm plate on the top, re bore and re plate and you could have a 100cc's

291339

This is an RG50 crank de stroked so I can use a Kawasaki KX65 piston and still be 50cc. There is no reason a RG50 crank couldn't be stroked for 47 or possibly even 50mm.

A 47mm stroke and Yamaha KT100 cart pistons = 49.8cc, so lots of possibilities

291335

We could put a nice big crankcase reed in the back of the RG50 cases.

291340

Or maybe even convert it to rotary valve and/or cut the gearbox off and make it CVT.

The RG50 already has a water pump and a nice 6 speed gear box too.

Its a project worth thinking about if it can make more than 31hp and I get really desperate about reliability with air cooling.

So ... I am not without option. :D

Grumph

23rd December 2013, 13:15

[QUOTE=F5 Dave;

tangent 2:
What it didn't make clear was in real life these ally liners would be plated. Where these I wonder? or is there a further dissimilar metal junction loss to be considered?

tangent 3:
And why, why didn't they test an ally liner pressed into an ally casting? That would have shown if, being that iron bores are a problem there is any point of making a replacement ally liner.[/QUOTE]

Herman Meier did slip in alloy liners for the Royal Enfield 250 singles. Slip in at room temp, interference fit as soon as it warmed up. Chrome plated too i believe. Never seen any heat transfer efficiency figures for it though. Great for development work I'd think.

F5 Dave

23rd December 2013, 13:39

291339

This is an RG50 crank de stroked so I can use a Kawasaki KX65 piston and still be 50cc. There is no reason it cant be stroked for 47 or possibly even 50mm.

A 47mm stroke and Yamaha KT100 cart pistons = 49.8cc, so lots of possibilities

erm, stock RG is 37.9mm stroke. Are you suggesting you can stroke it over 5mm pin direction? I think you'd find you'd have a problem with the rod BE passing through the case bottom. Also that liner looks pretty thin to be wanting to take any more out of it.

But yes it does make you ponder. heck I've even layered RG cases & wondered about making a Vtwin 100.

Pity no one made a 50mm bore/stroke modern engine.

husaberg

23rd December 2013, 13:50

Anyone know anything about these i just came across it.
http://img0092.popscreencdn.com/141839662_sachs-xtc125-xtc-125-engine-unit-ebay.jpghttp://scooterspares.org/clickpic/lg_%21BzJFggwCWk%7E$%28KGrHqV_%21h0Ew5%28Ib%21FSBM Utq%21q5bg%7E%7E_12.jpg

TZ350

23rd December 2013, 13:53

erm, stock RG is 37.9mm stroke. Are you suggesting you can stroke it over 5mm pin direction?

But yes it does make you ponder. heck I've even layered RG cases & wondered about making a Vtwin 100.

I have had a good look, and using an Aprilia 50 long rod or RD200 twin rod I am confident of 46, skim the cases 1mm and 48, 2mm if you dare and get 50mm stroke. I skim the GP125 cases 1.5mm for clearance on the RZ350/RD400 rods.

291349

We have some GT125 engines and have looked at 100cc twins or 100cc twin and CVT setups. There is so many interesting project possibilities and so little time.

Bert

23rd December 2013, 13:57

Anyone know anything about these i just came across it.
http://img0092.popscreencdn.com/141839662_sachs-xtc125-xtc-125-engine-unit-ebay.jpg
[/IMG]

Yip

Same as the Yamaha TZR125. Designed primarily in Italy, a subsidiary company Moto minarelli..
That one is the same as the earlier TZR (2RH From memory), though looking harder there's not much difference.
The gilleria 125 is the same as my later model 4dl...
50.6 stroke 56 bore.
Same bottom end as the WR200 & DT125r & KTM125LC2.... Long list of goodness....

husaberg

23rd December 2013, 13:59

Yip

Same as the Yamaha TZR125. Designed primarily in Italy.
That one is the same as the earlier TZR (2RH From memory). The gilleria 125 is the same as my 4dl...

Bummer i thought it was a newerish one i had missed. Has a 50mm stroke though. You sent me the stud pattern for these didn't you Brent?

Bert

23rd December 2013, 14:17

Bummer i thought it was a newerish one i had missed. Has a 50mm stroke though. You sent me the stud pattern for these didn't you Brent?

About 5 times... Do you want me to send it again?

husaberg

23rd December 2013, 14:34

About 5 times... Do you want me to send it again?

Gee i thought Dave was the xmas Grinch oh you did as you were............:rolleyes:

F5 Dave

23rd December 2013, 15:16

Yip

Same as the Yamaha TZR125. Designed primarily in Italy, a subsidiary company Moto minarelli..
That one is the same as the earlier TZR (2RH From memory), though looking harder there's not much difference.
The gilleria 125 is the same as my later model 4dl...
50.6 stroke 56 bore.
Same bottom end as the WR200 & DT125r & KTM125LC2.... Long list of goodness....

Someone should make an engine using one of those. reckon it would be killer!

Now all we need is nice 51mm pistons, but heck the CR85 overbore pistons would still give you 100cc.

So when you make a new sleeve, I wonder if it should be ally & a different rod for 15 or 14mm small end. Nige did tell me what pistons he was running but it escapes me now, some queer kart stuff.

husaberg

23rd December 2013, 15:38

Someone should make an engine using one of those. reckon it would be killer!

Now all we need is nice 51mm pistons, but heck the CR85 overbore pistons would still give you 100cc.

So when you make a new sleeve, I wonder if it should be ally & a different rod for 15 or 14mm small end. Nige did tell me what pistons he was running but it escapes me now, some queer kart stuff.

on a link Frits posted a while back i seen these as i don't speak sausage i never got around to chasing it up but i guess they will be in 12 mm gudgeon or be dykes rings with my luck.
http://langtuning.de/Shop2/bilder/produkte/normal/Kolben-49mm-fuer-zB-LT85_1.png
http://langtuning.de/Shop2/index.php?a=2033
http://langtuning.de/Shop2/index.php?a=1116

jasonu

23rd December 2013, 16:15

Someone should make an engine using one of those. reckon it would be killer!

Now all we need is nice 51mm pistons, but heck the CR85 overbore pistons would still give you 100cc.

So when you make a new sleeve, I wonder if it should be ally & a different rod for 15 or 14mm small end. Nige did tell me what pistons he was running but it escapes me now, some queer kart stuff.

We considered the TZR125 motor (and actually had one) a few years ago but decided against it. I don't remember exactly why we steered away from it but I do remember it was bloody heavy and physically very big.

Bert

23rd December 2013, 16:46

We considered the TZR125 motor (and actually had one) a few years ago but decided against it. I don't remember exactly why we steered away from it but I do remember it was bloody heavy and physically very big.

Actually far heavier than I actually expected. The head was difficult to resolve.
Yz100 pistons worked a treat (16mm pin).

I never quite got the power out of it that we hoped for, but I never made a pipe (opt'ing for a old RS125 pipe; so there was likely a lot more power that could have been had). Here's a reminder of the hole....

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=277995&d=1360092921

F5 Dave

23rd December 2013, 17:10

2000more rpm and a pipe matched to the porting and that would fair stonk. Just the piston would possibly limit at those revs

TZ350

23rd December 2013, 20:48

There is the Southward car musem and its collection of motorcycles. http://www.southwardcarmuseum.co.nz/gallery.html

283657

A real air cooled 2-Stroke, Geff Perrys TR500R and Trophies

283653

And Ron Grants water cooled TR750R

Work had me in Greymouth. While I was there I meet Robin Gray and he showed me around his Hose and Hydralic stor which is also an Aladins cave of interesting bikes and things. With lots of interesting old bits and bobs like miners helmets, lamps, hand made model trains and steam engines and an old BSA in the window.

264346

Another one of those fantastic stores:-

This Hardware Store in Invercargil is a real gem, its a real hardware store with a fantastic collection of bikes and Burt Munro Indian memorabilia.

E Hayes ltd http://www.ehayes.co.nz/Hayes-Motorworks-Collection/Hayes-motorworks-collection-__I.214

husaberg

23rd December 2013, 20:57

Another one of those fantastic stores:-

This Hardware Store in Invercargil is a real gem, its a real hardware store with a fantastic collection of bikes and Burt Munro Indian memorabilia.

E Hayes ltd http://www.ehayes.co.nz/Hayes-Motorworks-Collection/Hayes-motorworks-collection-__I.214

including Burts Velo, coincidentally "The worlds fastest Velocette"

Ocean1

23rd December 2013, 21:06

including Burts Velo, coincidentally "The worlds fastest Velocette"

... and an engine that some here would recognise as the absolute pinnacle of their art...

ellipsis

23rd December 2013, 22:10

...merry chrysalis you lot...love ya work...

TZ350

25th December 2013, 07:21

291415291416291417

Tried some original Ecotrons fuel injectors yesterday. Its all a bit tight so I had to make a new setup for them and cut the plastic away from around the top feed so that the plug and fuel barb could be rotated in different directions.

Unfortunately nothing improved, the engine still behaves badly at the swap over point around 8,000 rpm. 8,000rpm is of course 16,000 4T rpm. On the test bench and oscilloscope everything looks to be working OK so I am not sure if its a software problem or the injectors just can't keep up.

For Xmas I was given a complete set of top feed Alpha Sud fuel rails, regulators and 14mm injectors. This one has the injectors retained in the fuel rail by a clip so I can easily make a test rig and plug in my Pico IWP injectors.

I will now be able to study and measure the fuel delivery behavior of the injectors under real conditions and see whats happening at the point where the EFI system swaps from injector 1 to injector 2.

I am off to find SAE standard J1832 to see what it has to say about evaluating low pressure automotive fuel injectors.

mr bucketracer

25th December 2013, 08:07

mr bucketracer

25th December 2013, 08:30

second thing run a extra butterfly and servo operate it .. run it as a overide

TZ350

25th December 2013, 08:35

just go simple, 1 injector at the body good fuel mixing, well thats what i would do

Sensible, and works for a 4T but the problem I face with my 2T is that an injector small enough for starting and clean running at low rpm is to small when the engine gets on the pipe so you have to have two different sized injectors and swap between them for high and low speed running.

I think my real problem is in finding injectors dynamic enough to handle what would be 28,000 rpm in 4T terms.

It might be that I will have to run two injectors in parallel firing on alternate cycles.

TZ350

25th December 2013, 08:43

Not what I wanted but interesting, Scraped from the net:- http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=333911

Fuel injector latency and offset

Short story in a nutshell: -

The 'Effective Injection Pulsewidth' is the time that the injector is held open, during which fuel flows at the static flow rate at that condition [F=(dp over injector tip, rated flowrate of injector)]

As the injector driver goes 'on' there is a finite time for the flow to ramp from zero to full, likewise when the driver goes 'off' there is a finite time for the flow to ramp down to next to nothing.

This total time is the latency, confusingly only the initial ramp is referred to as 'the latency' as this is the time between on & full flow with the the ramp down being described as 'lag'.

Long story .....

In the world of programmable ECU's, injector latency, sometimes referred to as offset, is the term that is used that correlates to opening time of the injector. (To an injector design engineer, Opening time is different than offset, as Dave points out. In the SAE spec he references, it defines both, and how to calculate them. In my experience, the ECU manufacturers use this term interchangeably. Latency is really "opening time" = the time elapsed from the start of the logic pulse, to the start of fuel delivery from the injector. In a port injector, this is a function of many design parameters and calibration spring load in the injector used. It's also directly affected by the voltage supplied to the injector by the driver and the operating delta pressure across the injector. Peak and Hold driven injectors are less affected by the battery voltage, compared with saturated drive injectors, but they are still affected.

For example, when I calibrated my 3.8L Porsche club racer with a MOTEC controller, I needed the effective opening time at the dynamic calibration point for a range of battery voltages from 6-16V. I got opening times measured at 1V increments, and used that for programming the look-up table in the ECU.

Dave is correct about closing times being very important in having good linearity. Closing time is not as important to the controller, however, as it primarily impacts the effective duration of injection. (i.e. fuel keeps being delivered after the logic pulse ends) I say it's "not as important" because most ECU's now have so much control authority than they can adjust (lengthen or shorten) the pulse width being commanded of the injector by a large amount, and the effective duration of injection is sort of lost in the noise, as long as it's not excessive. Modern ECU drivers for high impedance injectors employ a zener diode to shunt the flyback current, which allows the magnetic field to collapse very quickly after the drive pulse ends. Assuming reasonable spring loads for most production injectors, most port injectors have closing times in the .4-.7ms range. The important part is that it needs to be CONSISTENT, in which case the ECU's capabilities mask it, making it SEEM unimportant. Opening time, or latency, is more important to the ECU from a timing perspective, to get the fuel shot delivered at the appropriate time. Since most port injectors have opening times in the 1-1.5ms range, this is more critical to overall timing.

Fuel injector latency and offset

This is a value calculated by measuring static and dynamic flow rates or you can also do a linear regression through a series of dynamic flow points such as 3, 4, 5, 6 & 7 ms at 10 ms pulse repetition period (100 Hz). Check out SAE spec J1832 for the standard definition.

If you plot flow on the vertical axis and pulsewidth on the horizontal axis the x-intercept is the offset or dead time in milliseconds. This is a function roughly of both the opening time and the closing time but it's more complicated than that because the flow/lift curve and pintle bounce also contribute. Closing time is very important in getting good linearity to small duration of injection.

my experience in automotive fuel systems has shown that many aftermarket manufacturers don't utilize the standards and don't always use correct terminology. In the case of aftermarket ECU manufacturers, they act like they have never looked at an SAE specification for an injector and create all sorts of differing terms for things that are already well defined. I've run into this before in the case of latency, vs. the correct term, "Injector Opening Time". I've also seen offset misused, which has a very specific mathematical definition per SAE. It is sometimes misapplied when the aftermarket manufacturer really means "Injector Opening Time"

Total dwell seat to seat is defined by SAE as "Effective Duration of Injection". That is equal to (in simple terms) (the duration of the logic pulse applied)-(opening time)+(closing time) typically referred to in ms. So, for a port injector with a 1.25ms opening time, and a 0.50ms closing time, the effective duration of injection for a 3.00 ms injection pulse is 2.25ms. Dwell at full flow isn't really much different. Good port fuel injectors are designed so that the transit times from fully closed to fully open for the armature/ball, or armature/pintle, or just armature in the case of a plate style injector are very fast relative to the logic pulses. These are typically on the order of 50 microseconds or less; the best designs are a lot less.

mr bucketracer

25th December 2013, 09:19

Sensible, and works for a 4T but the problem I face with my 2T is that an injector small enough for starting and clean running at low rpm is to small when the engine gets on the pipe so you have to have two different sized injectors and swap between them for high and low speed running.

I think my real problem is in finding injectors dynamic enough to handle what would be 28,000 rpm in 4T terms.

It might be that I will have to run two injectors in parallel firing on alternate cycles.guess you can use one to what was the needle then the other for the rest but find it hard to beleave that in this day and age that one could not do all , main thing on the track is from 7k onwards . the early honda 600 injection was so easy to set up , the map just looked like a dyno graft. all you did was pull the graft up and down + - fuel with the mouse every 500rpm and save it . half hour on the dyno and sorted , this aprilia 550 is more than a day on the dyno to sort , it jumps from map to map depending on how fast you open the thotle

Drew

25th December 2013, 09:35

Super simple program to alternate between injectors, and put on a chip.

Important to source power for the controller independently to the item controlled to save cross talk.

TZ350

25th December 2013, 09:52

... hard to beleave that in this day and age that one could not do all ...

This project is hampered by my inexperience with EFI, I have no idea of what can be realistically expected from an injector. So I don't really know if my switching problem is a hardware or software/setup issue.

TZ350

25th December 2013, 10:06

Some quick 2T numbers.

13,000 rpm
= 216 rps revolutions per second.
= 75,000 degrees per second.
= 75 degrees per milli second.
= 4.8 milli seconds per revolution.
= 3ms, If it takes the injector 1.5 ms to fully open and 0.3ms to close, then 360 degrees and 3ms is all the time you have for conventional fuel injection @ 13k.

For direct fuel injection after the exhaust port is closed its much less, approximately 80 degrees or 1ms.

Interestingly if blowdown is 36 degrees, then at 13,000 rpm a decent mass of gas leaves the cylinder in approximately 0.5ms.

TZ350

25th December 2013, 10:37

This is the best I have found so far about latency times:- http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=333911

291420

""Assuming reasonable spring loads for most production injectors. Most port injectors have opening times in the 1-1.5ms range and closing times in the .4-.7ms range.""

The thing I would really like to know is, is how fast the the Chinese after market Pico IWP023 and IWP043 fuel injectors can be opened and closed.

TZ350

25th December 2013, 13:24

Found this handy little site:- http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm

291421

Fuel injector Data

291422

From the table, at 80% duty cycle my IWP023 injector can support 23 crank hp and the IWP043 48hp.

More Numbers:-

13,000rpm
= 217 rps or rp1000ms
217 x 1.5ms latency = 325ms
80% duty cycle = 800ms
800ms-325ms=475ms
475ms/217rpms
= 2.18ms of fully open injection time per revolution
and
If the maximum opening + closing speed of an injector is 1.5ms, then 1.5ms = 666 Hz or 40,000 rpm. So my injectors should be able to easily open and close fast enough for 13,000rpm.

Flettner

25th December 2013, 14:57

It's that "jolly" ECU ! Abandon it and use a Link. I've got a spare one here for you to use. You will just need a new wiring loom.

Flettner

25th December 2013, 15:10

just go simple, 1 injector at the body good fuel mixing, well thats what i would do

Dosen't work, too indirect to the cylinder. You will get inconsistant fuel mixtures up to the cylinder, remember the fuel is being deposited as small pockets in the main air streem. How do you know that small pocket will end up in the cylinder accurately every cycle. There is a pumping crank case in the way ( not 100% pumping efficent at below 1/3 throttle ), some fuel stays behind, some fuel goes through to the cylinder. This is where most twostroke EFI setups are comming unstuck.
In fact thats what happens, combustion chamber "sees" rich / lean every few cycles.
Stick to your guns Rob, I'm just not too sure I trust that ECU.

TZ350

25th December 2013, 15:56

Rob, I'm just not too sure I trust that ECU.

Something is wrong, it just should not be this hard to get sorted.

Flettner

25th December 2013, 16:13

Something is wrong, it just should not be this hard to get sorted.

Your welcome to borrow my Link ECU, it's not in use at the moment.
Actually I've also got an Ignijet ECU as well, although I don't know anything about it yet, you could try it if you like.

TZ350

25th December 2013, 17:52

291448

Thanks, but I am a glutton for punishment and want to try and conquer this thing.

Flettner

25th December 2013, 18:29

The offer is there, any time.

mr bucketracer

25th December 2013, 20:10

Dosen't work, too indirect to the cylinder. You will get inconsistant fuel mixtures up to the cylinder, remember the fuel is being deposited as small pockets in the main air streem. How do you know that small pocket will end up in the cylinder accurately every cycle. There is a pumping crank case in the way ( not 100% pumping efficent at below 1/3 throttle ), some fuel stays behind, some fuel goes through to the cylinder. This is where most twostroke EFI setups are comming unstuck.
In fact thats what happens, combustion chamber "sees" rich / lean every few cycles.
Stick to your guns Rob, I'm just not too sure I trust that ECU.just going of a book i read in around 2000 with a kart engine with direct injection just had 1 injector on the head , seen it had no gearbox it would have to run good in its hole rev range, but maybe direct injection works diffient ...dont know

TZ350

25th December 2013, 22:47

The offer is there, any time.

Thanks, the offer is much appreciated.

... kart engine with direct injection just had 1 injector on the head , seen it had no gearbox it would have to run good in its hole rev range, but maybe direct injection works diffient ...

291457

Slightly different process, compressed air is also used, possibly a peak and hold injector to, for fast opening. But like you say, it makes you think, why can't port injection be done with only one injector too. I will have a go.

291458

mr bucketracer

26th December 2013, 07:09

Thanks, the offer is much appreciated.

291457

Slightly different process, compressed air is also used. But like you say, it makes you think, why can't port injection be done with only one injector too. I will have a go.

291458think anything is worth a try , if it does not work .no lose and no gain as they say . have a good xmas

TZ350

26th December 2013, 07:21

think anything is worth a try , if it does not work .no lose and no gain as they say . have a good xmas

Thanks .... have a good Christmas too, if your off to Wanganui, have a great time and please post something about the racing and how Guy got on.

F5 Dave

26th December 2013, 17:33

It was good. He got about 5ths and mostly stayed on.

TZ350

26th December 2013, 18:44

Thanks, it will be interesting to hear more about peoples adventures when they get back, and more of Guys exploits.

husaberg

26th December 2013, 19:04

Slightly different process, compressed air is also used, possibly a peak and hold injector to, for fast opening. But like you say, it makes you think, why can't port injection be done with only one injector too. I will have a go.

291458
Moto guzzi was using fuel injection with compressed air in the 50's
if i trip over it i will post it.

mr bucketracer

26th December 2013, 19:11

yip around 5ths guy got , one race he pulled in half way through the race ,my mate went over to see him and he was moaning about his airbox been wrong lol . nasty one with sloan frost and nick cole going under him in the (Esis)can't spell ) anyway sloan crashed and went under the airbag..took i think 4-5 mins before anyone pulled them up and got him out .. the spectators jump the fence in the end and lifted the bags of him lol ..looked nasty though

TZ350

26th December 2013, 19:51

291468

Connected up a signal generator and oscilloscope to the Beast and had a look at how the EFI injector pulses behaved at a simulated 2,000 to 12,500+ rpm. And then with the motor running.

Five things I learned about my EFI setup today.

1, I don't have to worry about how fast the injectors open/close, and probably all good (modern) injectors are plenty fast enough with a latency < 1.75ms and good for > 16,000+ 2T rpm.

2, That with a simulated engine rpm signal from 2,000 rpm to 12,500+ rpm the oscilloscope showed perfect injector traces and cross over with no problems.

3, That when the bike was run on the dyno the oscilloscope clearly showed the EFI system swapping to the second injector and it running for a bit then as the rpm tried to climb the ECU started dropping pulses and the engine running became increasingly unstable until it was violently surging from injector 1 to injector 2 and then back again.

4, At the swap over point the second injector starts working but the injector driving signal becomes unstable. This only happens when the rpm is changing dynamical and not when the rpm is being changed relatively slowly by hand.

5, It makes me even more sure that its nothing to do with the injectors or whether the Alpha-N map is lean or not, the 2nd injector is coming on. So I think its in the software setup there is a box that should be ticked or un-ticked or some variable with a wrong value. For some reason the system is stable when bench tested with a simulator but with exactly the same settings, unstable under dynamic running conditions.

291465

The oscilloscope trace is taken from the active or -ve side of resistors pushed into the injector plugs. The second injector is actually two injectors in parallel. As there will be a spare second injector plug when I run the motor up it will be easy to get a signal from the second injector for the oscilloscope so I can see what happens at cross over from the smaller slow running injector 1 to the bigger power and rpm injector 2.

291464

Simulated 12,500+ rpm with the signal generator.

291467

Both injectors at a PWM of 3.1ms

291463

Perfect matching traces at 12,500+rpm.

I am measuring on the active (-ve) side of a resistor inserted in the injector plugs. Now it has to be remembered, this is only a trace of the ECU's signal to the injector and it tells us nothing about the shape of the curve of the fuel flowing from the injector during each pulse.

How the EFI system works, is that the ECU supply's 12V to the injector and when it wants it to fire, the ECU closes a switch and grounds the -ve side of the injector to 0V so current flows through the injector coil. This voltage swing to earth or oV is what I am tracing and is the flat line you can see at the bottom. The flat line is 3.1ms long.

The curved upper line is the ECU opening the switch again and the -ve side of the injector rising back up to 12V. The vertical drop is the -ve side being switched to 0V again to turn the injector on once more. The multiple trace lines are not my shaky hand but at 3ms the trace gets re drawn very quickly and the camera catches several images.

291466

The spiky line is the trace from a real injector. The high voltage spike is from the inductance of the injectors coil wanting to keep the current flowing when the ECU opens the switch to turn the injector off.

When the motor was running I could clearly see the trace swap over to the second injector, the second injector would pick up and start to run and the rpm would start to increase just before the ECU began dropping pulses and the motor rpm started swinging ever more wildly between injector 1 and 2.

I did not have enough hands to get pictures or video of this, but it was good to see, as it confirms the problem is not in the EFI units hardware or injectors.

mr bucketracer

26th December 2013, 20:48

i know when it comes to fuel injection a real good battery is needed , my mate glen that race's f3 has a 1000 dollar battery and is only good for 1 race . thats why i have left the charging system on my aprilia

TZ350

26th December 2013, 22:10

i know when it comes to fuel injection a real good battery is needed.

I have a battery charger connected to the battery all the time I am working with the EFI system on the dyno. When I get it going properly I will have to junk the old total loss system and upgrade the bikes electrics to include a decent charging system.

F5 Dave

27th December 2013, 07:30

I was just about to say, have you put a meter on the battery when it is running?

Moooools

27th December 2013, 07:47

291448

Thanks, but I am a glutton for punishment and want to try and conquer this thing.

If you do end up switching to the link I am more than happy to do the loom for you if you pay for materials. And also help you set it up.

291468

Connected up a signal generator and oscilloscope to the Beast and had a look at how the EFI injector pulses behaved at a simulated 2,000 to 12,500+ rpm. And then with the motor running.

Five things I learned about my EFI setup today.

1, I don't have to worry about how fast the injectors open/close, and probably all good (modern) injectors are plenty fast enough with a latency < 1.75ms and good for > 16,000+ 2T rpm.

2, That with a simulated engine rpm signal from 2,000 rpm to 12,500+ rpm the oscilloscope showed perfect injector traces and cross over with no problems.

3, That when the bike was run on the dyno the oscilloscope clearly showed the EFI system swapping to the second injector and it running for a bit then as the rpm tried to climb the ECU started dropping pulses and the engine running became increasingly unstable until it was violently surging from injector 1 to injector 2 and then back again.

4, At the swap over point the second injector starts working but the injector driving signal becomes unstable. This only happens when the rpm is changing dynamical and not when the rpm is being changed relatively slowly by hand.

5, It makes me even more sure that its nothing to do with the injectors or whether the Alpha-N map is lean or not, the 2nd injector is coming on. So I think its in the software setup there is a box that should be ticked or un-ticked or some variable with a wrong value. For some reason the system is stable when bench tested with a simulator but with exactly the same settings, unstable under dynamic running conditions.

291465

The oscilloscope trace is taken from the active or -ve side of resistors pushed into the injector plugs. The second injector is actually two injectors in parallel. As there will be a spare second injector plug when I run the motor up it will be easy to get a signal from the second injector for the oscilloscope so I can see what happens at cross over from the smaller slow running injector 1 to the bigger power and rpm injector 2.

291464

Simulated 12,500+ rpm with the signal generator.

291467

Both injectors at a PWM of 3.1ms

291463

Perfect matching traces at 12,500+rpm.

I am measuring on the active (-ve) side of a resistor inserted in the injector plugs. Now it has to be remembered, this is only a trace of the ECU's signal to the injector and it tells us nothing about the shape of the curve of the fuel flowing from the injector during each pulse.

How the EFI system works, is that the ECU supply's 12V to the injector and when it wants it to fire, the ECU closes a switch and grounds the -ve side of the injector to 0V so current flows through the injector coil. This voltage swing to earth or oV is what I am tracing and is the flat line you can see at the bottom. The flat line is 3.1ms long.

The curved upper line is the ECU opening the switch again and the -ve side of the injector rising back up to 12V. The vertical drop is the -ve side being switched to 0V again to turn the injector on once more. The multiple trace lines are not my shaky hand but at 3ms the trace gets re drawn very quickly and the camera catches several images.

291466

The spiky line is the trace from a real injector. The high voltage spike is from the inductance of the injectors coil wanting to keep the current flowing when the ECU opens the switch to turn the injector off.

When the motor was running I could clearly see the trace swap over to the second injector, the second injector would pick up and start to run and the rpm would start to increase just before the ECU began dropping pulses and the motor rpm started swinging ever more wildly between injector 1 and 2.

I did not have enough hands to get pictures or video of this, but it was good to see, as it confirms the problem is not in the EFI units hardware or injectors.

Are you sure you aren't seeing interference from unshielded injector leads? I can't quite gather if you hooked the signal gen up and ran it up to 12500 with all the injectors in. But even if you did a potentially weaker signal from the crank pickup may be having a bad time in amongst some noise.

What sort of crank pickup are you using? Reluctor? And a single tooth timing wheel or multi tooth with one missing? Could you switch to a Honeywell GT101DC hall effect? They are mad bulky but produce an awesome clean signal and are very hardy. They are the general standard for motorsport and only set you back about $60 from Motorsport Electronics.

Is your pickup sensor lead shielded? Probs do that if it isn't. Interference is a bitch. As are a lot of things with FI but as soon as you have it right you will love it.

As for the batteries don't even worry as long as the charging system produces enough power to keep up. I think we pull 9A on the racecar to run the engine, a DAQ system and an electric water pump and radiator fan. We have a meaty charging system (160W) which keeps us well in the green. I wouldn't even dream of running total loss on FI.
Actually the standard WR450F is FI and is set up to have the battery removed! It just has a capacitor that charges enough from a kickstart to prime the fuel pump and get the thing to go. Incredibly impressive.

TZ350

27th December 2013, 09:16

If you do end up switching to the link I am more than happy to do the loom for you if you pay for materials. And also help you set it up.

Thank you for the offer, I think if I had of borrowed Flettners Link and with your help I would have been up and running long ago.

but I am keen to get the Ecotrons working properly if I can, then we can afford to fuel inject some of our other bikes too.

I have been able to run the Ecotrons on a single bigger injector to 12,000 rpm which suggests its not lean map settings and I have tried other tricks like under reporting the size of the second injector so the system will run rich after cross over. With the settings rich on one injector the engine will continue to run (badly) but not hunt violently like it still does on two however rich I make the second one.

The problem seems to be that the Ecotrons EFI system with 2T split injection runs and crosses over to injector 2 OK all the way to 13,000+ rpm when its driven by a signal generator.

But when its running live with the motor it becomes unstable after the cross over point at about 8,000 rpm.

The only difference I can see between the signal generator and real running is that with live running the motor forms a feed back loop.

And some how after the cross over point to the larger injector 2 the EFI control becomes unstable and that re enforced instability leads to violent hunting until the average engine rpm drops back below the cross over point and the motor recovers.

The Ecotrons EFI system was originally developed for GY6 CVT scooter engines and in the Ecotrons advanced calibration menu there are any number of hysteresis settings maybe something here is responding to what it thinks is runaway (but normal 2T) acceleration and tries to hard to damp things down.

Anyway that is where my current thinking is.

TZ350

27th December 2013, 09:21

Are you sure you aren't seeing interference from unshielded injector leads? I can't quite gather if you hooked the signal gen up and ran it up to 12500 with all the injectors in. But even if you did a potentially weaker signal from the crank pickup may be having a bad time in amongst some noise.

Actually I have not looked at that, :facepalm: ....

Moooools

27th December 2013, 12:39

But when its running live with the motor it becomes unstable after the cross over point at about 8,000 rpm.

The only difference I can see between the signal generator and real running is that with live running the motor forms a feed back loop.

And some how after the cross over point to the larger injector 2 the EFI control becomes unstable and that re enforced instability leads to violent hunting until the average engine rpm drops back below the cross over point and the motor recovers.

The Ecotrons EFI system was originally developed for GY6 CVT scooter engines and in the Ecotrons advanced calibration menu there are any number of hysteresis settings maybe something here is responding to what it thinks is runaway (but normal 2T) acceleration and tries to hard to damp things down.

Anyway that is where my current thinking is.

So if I have this right there is closed loop feedback that tries to determine if the engine is doing something it is not supposed to be and corrects it, and you don't have control over that feedback? Or have you just not found the window that controls it yet? I take it you mean a hysteresis setting such as 'when acceleration gets over X remove Y much fuel until it is below Z acceleration'?

The more I have seen of the Ecotrons software the more it looks to be way over complicated. The fact that you have to input your injector size alone seems like a hugely redundant feature. Just so you have an idea here is the process we run on the Link:

We have a master fuel control that has a the pulse width control and a master fuel multiplier.

There is a setup sheet that deals with the base timings and setup of pickups and firing order.

A table that is RPM vs TPS for fuelling and ignition timing.

A table for start enrichment.

And that is everything to get the engine to run.
If you can I would highly recommend turning every damn fun feature of the Ecotrons off until you have just the fuel, ignition, and a start correction running. Get rid of any closed loop feedback to eliminate sensor issues. By this stage you should be down to 2 variables that control every point, rather than 10 and then some more that you don't know. Try to do all of your changes just on your fuel and ignition tables, avoiding making changes to the master fuel enrichment and the injector settings. Even if there are still some spots that run rough don't worry about it until you can get the thing to rev to whatever you want it to rev to. Then put in a rev limiter. Then put in acceleration and overrun enrichment. Then do the rest of the closed loop control as you see it needs it. Usability first, then complexity.

If all fails then use the link.

pete376403

27th December 2013, 13:26

Years ago I read an article in Cycle Magazine about development of the XR750 (Harley! Fourstroke!!) which mentioned a problem they had with eddy currents surrounding the dyno which would completely upset the Fairbanks Morse magnetos, so to successfully dyno the engines they had to use a battery and coil ignition, even though they raced with magnetos.
( I appreciate there is a world of difference between a slow-revving, magneto-ignited, carburetted four stroke and what you are doing, but you seem to have eliminated all the obvious things...)

Could you place a faraday cage around the ECU while doing the dyno runs?

TZ350

27th December 2013, 15:57

So if I have this right there is closed loop feedback that tries to determine if the engine is doing something it is not supposed to be and corrects it, and you don't have control over that feedback?

I am guessing, but to account for the behavior I think that there must be a closed loop and no I can't find the correct variable to change, there are lots of them, and some of them are hidden.

Ecotrons does not seem to be able to grasp the issue and yes their setup adapted from a road going 4T that has to meet emission standards is overly complicated for a racing 2T.

Their conversion is a bit of a bodge. Like they just turned off the VE table although I could still see it and make changes to it but nothing changed in reality, it took me two weeks to work that cunning little trap out.

I am not getting happier ....

husaberg

27th December 2013, 16:10

Moto guzzi was using fuel injection with compressed air in the 50's
if i trip over it i will post it.

i found it interwrestling.

Rob with the Mirco squirt there is a software program that can self trim the mixtures does the econotrons have a silimilar setup?
http://www.megamanual.com/megatune.htm#autotune
The big potential advantage i can see with an electronic fuel injection set up is you could set it up to be "fuel cooled" to lessen power fade rather than any hp gains......

i had a gander at this the other day re the injector size..
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/calcinjpulse.html
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/fuelinjectors.htm
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/efiharley.htm

husaberg

27th December 2013, 17:07

Barker headless the other side.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=271739&d=1350297984

wobbly

27th December 2013, 19:09

Just a random thought - 2 injectors in parallel, is this causing an impedance mismatch that the injector driver circuit cannot handle.
Most manufacturers I have seen specify the correct impedance,and or have a different connection for high/low impedance injectors.

Moooools

27th December 2013, 19:17

I am not getting happier ....

This will cheer you right up. Pretty good price on the new Link Atoms: http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/car-parts-accessories/performance/electronics/auction-677326274.htm

Did that help?

Just a random thought - 2 injectors in parallel, is this causing an impedance mismatch that the injector driver circuit cannot handle.
Most manufacturers I have seen specify the correct impedance,and or have a different connection for high/low impedance injectors.

Seems like that could be an issue. But the fact that they go fine on the signal gen would seem to rule that out.

TZ350

27th December 2013, 19:50

This will cheer you right up. Pretty good price on the new Link Atoms: http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/car-parts-accessories/performance/electronics/auction-677326274.htm

Thankyou for the ecouragement, I have had a look at them and it will be where I go next if I have to.

Just a random thought - 2 injectors in parallel, is this causing an impedance mismatch that the injector driver circuit cannot handle.

Ecotrons confirm that adding another injector plug wired in parallel on a channel for two injectors is OK, but as its turned out, I have only been using 1 injector on each channel so the extra plug has been a handy measuring point for the scope.

The main problem is that I have seen on the scope screen the ECU dropping pulses just after the cross over point to the bigger second injector. This does not happen when the ECU is driven by the signal generator.

And if I set the system up to run only one injector it will run well past the troublesome cross over point for two injectors so I think the map and pickup are not the problem.

Moooools

27th December 2013, 20:04

And if I set the system up to run only one injector it will run well past the troublesome cross over point for two injectors so I think the map and pickup are not the problem.

What type of trigger wheel are you using?

It isn't just running so damn rough that it is kicking the RPM signal around is it? I have seen it before.

TZ350

27th December 2013, 20:19

What type of trigger wheel are you using?

Single pulse trigger, not a multi tooth with gap type trigger wheel.

291499

I am using the stator plate and pickup (no charging coil) and the flywheel from a KX80

It isn't just running so damn rough that it is kicking the RPM signal around is it? I have seen it before.

Good thought, I will put the scope on it tommorow,

Moooools

28th December 2013, 08:59

Good thought, I will put the scope on it tommorow,

Can your scope give you an FFT of the pickup? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Fourier_transform)

That way you can see a single peak at the current RPM and if it moves the single peak will move up or down the X axis, but if it is randomly missing revolutions you will get several peaks.

Single pulse trigger, not a multi tooth with gap type trigger wheel.

291499

Hmmmm. Depending on how much crank inertia you have that can prove problematic. If your tune is spot on then it can run very happily. But if it isn't any sudden accelerations and decelerations can't be accounted for, which can put your spark and injection timing way on the piss, which just makes it all worse.

cotswold

28th December 2013, 09:15

http://www.raceandstyle.fr/kit-overrange-mhr-aluminium-malossi-2013-booster-nitro.html

TerraRoot

28th December 2013, 10:58

husaberg

28th December 2013, 11:24

ECU's
surly the only thing two stoke about the ecotrons is the low ampage fuel pump? swap it for a microsquirt/megasquirt
on the other hand i can understand the urge to not lose to the bastarding thing, work damn you!

1200 for the link! :eek5:

The link is pretty flash bit of Kit, A much earlier version wasi what the Britten Ran Shhhhhhhhhhhh (forget i said that)

Few people would seen or heard of this i had just seen the odd reference.
I could have posted this in ESE or the chassis thread (might anyway).
Tell you the truth i wouldn't mind building a replica anyone got a Crescent 500 3 engine (lying about, they want to give away like:rolleyes:)
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291511&d=1388173907
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291512&d=1388173965
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291513&d=1388173965
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291514&d=1388177354
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291509&d=1388173829
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291510&d=1388173907
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291508&d=1388173829
This last pic i think is another version maybe?http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=291515&d=1388177354

husaberg

28th December 2013, 11:52

Some more Crescent engine pics 500cc 2 stroke 3.

TZ350

28th December 2013, 11:55

CVT http://www.raceandstyle.fr/kit-overrange-mhr-aluminium-malossi-2013-booster-nitro.html

We now have a CVT project, watch this space later in the year.

TZ350

28th December 2013, 12:47

TZ400 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8ZJCPXAIyA&feature=share&list=LLg1Ze1muy87n3mkhOHMXVSg&index=5

TZ350

28th December 2013, 17:57

291586

Fuel Injected Suzuki 750

291587

A very interesting collection of links to all sorts:- http://teamheronsuzuki.blogspot.nl/2013/12/bsa-bantam-rg500.html

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/qSJX4B0ux7E" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

speedpro

28th December 2013, 20:05

What about just using the smallest injector possible that will supply the fuel at max, only. At start and low throttle openings it will be rich even at minimum pulse width. Opening the throttle will admit more air but you don't have to programme increased fuel until conditions require it. I don't know when those conditions would be, it would depend on the injector and the engine. Typically carbs are set rich at the very bottom of the range and they work OK. The way I see it if you had to have more than 15% throttle to admit enough air to correct the mixture even at minimum pulse width it should be rideable. How often is a race motor used below say 50% of max revs with less than 15% throttle? I reckon it would "blip" fine and be raceable. We aren't talking about a road bike here where it must be sweet from idle to max.

Frits Overmars

28th December 2013, 21:35

What about just using the smallest injector possible that will supply the fuel at max, only.
At start and low throttle openings it will be rich drown even at minimum pulse width.Fixed that for ye.

Typically carbs are set rich at the very bottom of the range and they work OK.A carb 'set rich' doesn't necessarily mean a rich mixture. This is a fundamental difference between a carb and EFI.

We aren't talking about a road bike here where it must be sweet from idle to max.Rideability is less critical on a race bike? You haven't done much drifting lately, have you?

TZ350

28th December 2013, 21:36

What about just using the smallest injector possible that will supply the fuel at max,

Yes, worth a try.

If all else fails I can try it on the Bemer I am customizing. Chambers and I have both got K100 basket cases that we are going to make into bober chopper cruisers complete with extended forks, low rider sprung seats, tassels, peanut tanks and fat rear tiers. The bikes will be striped down and all about the engine.

Probably offend the Euro Fundamentalists and State Side compressor riders all in one go ...... :laugh:

291590

Not my bike, but don't you just love that engine.

Maybe I could have done a 2T like this high powered BSA Bantam with an RG500 based engine.

291591 http://teamheronsuzuki.blogspot.nl/2013/12/bsa-bantam-rg500.html

With the Bemer I am aiming for something that's OK to ride slow so I do not loose my license (again) and great for cruising the cafes.

mr bucketracer

29th December 2013, 07:23

could allways use a carb until the end of the needle then inject the rest

TZ350

29th December 2013, 07:35

More progress, Matt has been in contact and asked for my latest recorded runs and photos of the scope traces for analysis. He expects to be able to get back to me Wednesday. In the mean time I will have a look at the quality of the trigger signal from the ignition pickup.

TZ350

29th December 2013, 07:39

could always use a carb until the end of the needle then inject the rest

Its a good idea, but I want to use the FI for the shorter inlet tract and when I have had it running OK low down on one injector the throttle response is much better than with a carb. At 2,000 rpm I can go WOT and it picks up without any hesitation.

FI may not ultimately make anymore top end power than I can achieve with a carb but I expect the fuel curve with FI to be much better with greatly improved drive-ability.

Cheesy

29th December 2013, 08:38

Are you still using a constant fuel pressure? I was reading the YZ250 EFI build thread and I think that mentioned using chamber pressure as a reference for the regulator, something like that or maybe an ecu controlled servo to alter pressure might give a betterrange on the injector

TZ350

29th December 2013, 09:09

Varying the pressure, thats a good idea for extending a single injector, I will try it if Ecotrons can't come up with an answer to the crossover problem.

speedpro

29th December 2013, 09:17

Rideability is less critical on a race bike? You haven't done much drifting lately, have you?

Not lately and not on a bucket ever. Actually, on a bucket once, but it didn't end well.

kel

29th December 2013, 13:04

Thoughts on my piston please.
291637
The plug suggested it was running rich but Im thinking the piston says its too hot so should therefore be richer still? Oil is Elf HTX909 castor synthetic mix if that makes a difference

TZ350

29th December 2013, 15:54

Maybe posted before, can't remember so here it is, well worth reading.

Detonation Management – The Key to 2stroke Power and Reliability
a technical paper by Harry and Gerhard Klemm of Klemm Vintage Racing Engines

http://www.klemmvintage.com/deto2.htm

291641

TZ350

29th December 2013, 18:00

Now that I have started putting the new air cooled motor together.

291646

In the interests of science I have brought a data logger and 4 channel thermocouple interface from europerformance http://www.europerformance.co.nz/ who are a certified distributor for Innovate Motorsports and XT Racing and also carry other performance and race parts.

291648

Pocket Data Logger $95 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=677818916

291647 http://www.europerformance.co.nz/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=84

Thermocouple interface $145 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=677819590

291645

The plane is to use the data logger to help with developing some effective ducting for the new 30+ hp air cooled engine.

koba

29th December 2013, 18:55

Now that I have started putting the new air cooled motor together.

291646

In the interests of science I have brought a data logger and 4 channel thermocouple interface from europerformance.

Interested to see how this goes! I've been looking to buy/build something similar.

The one I have build has a relay in it which I plan to use to earth the coil over a certain head temp during development runs.
What you have there looks to be a better off the shelf solution.

TZ350

29th December 2013, 19:54

One of the places that gets really hot fast is under the exhaust port duct and will be one of temperature control places for my setup.

This might be useful, $29.90

291650

http://www.trademe.co.nz/business-farming-industry/industrial/electrical-equipment/gauges-meters/auction-679008416.htm

If it has a Peak and Hold function then it would be very useful.

speedpro

29th December 2013, 20:53

Thoughts on my piston please.

Doesn't look hot to me. Still looks cool and damp. How did you stop the engine - plug chop or ride it back to the pits?

kel

29th December 2013, 21:38

How did you stop the engine - plug chop or ride it back to the pits?

Rode it back to the pits. Im now thinking the piston should only be read as per a plug chop :facepalm:

I thought perhaps the black deposit to the piston was oil burn from to much heat, do I have this completely arse about face?

TZ350

29th December 2013, 21:45

When you get a chance, take a look at the underside of the piston, if there is carbonized oil or staining there, then its running to hot.

Frits Overmars

29th December 2013, 21:56

...I plan to use to earth the coil over a certain head temp during development runs.Unexpectedly losing all engine power can be ...eh... surprising. Hooking up a warning light instead of cutting the sparks may be healthier.

TZ350

29th December 2013, 22:04

Ok so its not a 2T but it is an adventure and it does give you a pretty good look inside an Indian Scout.

291653

Beautiful preparation, a lot of effort has gone into making it look good.

http://www.indianpartseurope.com/saltcracker.html

http://www.indianpartseurope.com/scbonneville10.html

291654

They even mention Burt (The Fastest Indian) but did not get anywhere near Berts 200mph run at Bonneville.

Looking at it, I think their picture of Bert, is Bert at a Beach Race in New Zealand, 70's perhaps.

291655

Here is a shot of Berts bike taken much earlier, 1953.

koba

30th December 2013, 07:14

Unexpectedly losing all engine power can be ...eh... surprising. Hooking up a warning light instead of cutting the sparks may be healthier.

Yeah it can be a fright! I plan to only do that for testing when I am the only one on track, thought about that instead of a warning light as I can't miss it then...

May revisit a warning light though.

Actually now that I've had a good run of testing on-track and on-dyno I'm not so worried, this was the plan when I was melting pistons each time I went out, I've got past that knwo with a bit more brains in setup. (Fingers Crossed)

koba

30th December 2013, 07:33

I've been using an old RS ignition Rotor but it had started to come loose, I peened the rivets over some more and it still came loose after a few runs.
Incredibly it was running OK despite several millimeters of float, seemed to line up when revving and knock around a lot when at low revs.

I pulled it apart and repaired it by welding up the ovaled holes.
I welded one each time on to a big chunk of brass, then allowed it to cool so it didn't damage the magent retention.

I had to machine it in the lathe to flatten and true it all up, I think maybe it distorted a little, not sure.
I'm an amatuer at this so it took ages.

Haven't had a chace to test yet, I hope like hell that it is concentric...

F5 Dave

30th December 2013, 08:56

Oh well, if you've fixed it I'll want it back.

Kidding.

koba

30th December 2013, 15:59

Oh, also used oversize rivets, the welding was because there was not enough meat left in the rotor to hold it all together.
(Husa asked...)

TZ350

31st December 2013, 16:22

Getting happier, after looking at my recorded data, Ecotrons support sent me a new cal file based on their idea of what I needed and that was good enough to get me going.

After a little adjustment to the global fuel factor I was able to pull some runs where injector-1 crossed over to injector-2 without all the bucking and banging like before.

The Ecotrons system has a really good data logging application where you can select any of the systems measured or calculated variables and log them.

291757

Purple line is the throttle fully open or closed, Green line RPM, Brown intake manifold pressure and Red is load air charge/fuel.

291758

RPM and injector on-time.

Large Pink line is rpm, lower Blue line is injector-1 to 7,000 rpm and the small Red hoop lines are Injector-2 up to 12,000 rpm.

The Pink line is rich and looks a little jagged below 7k and between 7 and 12k it looks better but I think a little lean. It will be very helpful when I get the O2 sensor working.

I was starting to get despondent before, but now an affordable Bucket racing fuel injection system is looking possible.

The proof will be in whether I can tune the map and get the Beast running real sharp.

The hardest thing for me was finding a starting point, if it all works out ok on the dyno, I will post my maps and setup data for anyone else wanting to have a go with their 2T.

speedpro

31st December 2013, 20:10

TZ350

31st December 2013, 21:41

Interesting how you can see the "rpm rate of increase" tail off just before it switches to the 2nd injector, and then the rpm rate of increase goes steep again. Either the later values for Injector1 need adjusting or the injector is topping out. If it's all good I wouldn't expect to see any change in the rate of increase other than that caused by engine configuration.

You are right, good point, and from the sound of the bike, it did seem to be way over rich there.

With it finaly swapping over injectors as planned, today felt like a great step foreword ...... :woohoo:

Now I need to spend some time dialing it in.

Haufen

1st January 2014, 00:58

Congratulations! :niceone: So what has been done to achieve the improved crossover from injector one to injector two?

With automobile ECUs, you can load two calibration files, and it can tell you exactly which parameters are different between the two. Can you do that with the ecotrons, too? I suppose it should be possible.

husaberg

1st January 2014, 06:09

You are right, good point, and from the sound of the bike, it did seem to be way over rich there.

With it finaly swapping over injectors as planned, today felt like a great step foreword ...... :woohoo:

Now I need to spend some time dialing it in.

So it seems to be just an overlap issue? Wow that great news if that is all it is.......

TZ350

1st January 2014, 06:25

With automobile ECUs, you can load two calibration files, and it can tell you exactly which parameters are different between the two.

Yes you can do that with the Ecotrons system too, but I am not sure myself how its done.

Congratulations! :niceone: So what has been done to achieve the improved crossover from injector one to injector two?

Thank you ... I had no idea where to start so it looks like it was pretty much a self inflicted problem and it was the Ecotrons support team that sorted it. After looking at the data I sent them they sent back a calibration file and map that got me started.

The map is very different, and I will try and compare the old and new calibration files to see if there are any "Subtle" differences in the control setup.

291791

I like their hardware, it comes with its own wiring loom and is so easy to install.

For anyone wanting to try EFI on a small bike this is the Bees Knees for simplicity. The control algorithms appear to be every bit as professional as any top line EFI system.

And when Ecotrons develops their user software into something more friendly then this will be a very affordable and fun package.

I am looking forward to seeing how the other elements of the project, like the ball valve, boost bottle, chamber pressure valve and exhaust port dam work together with the EFI system.

TZ350

1st January 2014, 07:19

Interesting reading for racers of air coolers wanting to improve cooling through ducting/shrouding
http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/...report-555.pdf - design principles for optimum cylinder shrouding/baffle, fin spacing, etc
http://x-jets.com/Design_for_optimum...efficiency.pdf - overview document with other interesting naca report references (type them into google)
Theres little that can be done to further cool the front of the cylinder (assuming its in free air) but shrouding can certainly aid in delivering an evenly cooled cylinder. The rear of air cooled motors get surprisingly hot, I found this out when I burnt my hand on the back edge of Robs cylinder head while we were testing on the dyno, it was hotter than the front/exhaust side!

Have seen a few different designs on line, not all of them make sense and even less conform to the NACA papers, this Vortex is probably the closest to what's required
291783291784

Thanks Kel, I will study the references ...

Interesting reading for racers of air coolers wanting to improve cooling through ducting/shrouding

I dont know why the links would not connect in your post so I found them and downloaded the pdf's.

291843291844291845

TZ350

1st January 2014, 10:38

Few people would seen or heard of this i had just seen the odd reference.

291803

Rudi Kurth and the Monark with the Cat van in the background.

291806291807

And Dane Rowe was the swinger on Rudi Kurths sidecars in the 70's.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/teamheronsuzuki/9534743127/in/set-72157608302512322/

291802

For those that remember her and wonder what she is up to these days, Danes big interest is Numismatics.

291804

From Wiki:- Numismatics is the study or collection of currency, including coins, tokens, paper money, and related objects. While numismatists are often characterized as students or collectors of coins, the discipline also includes the broader study of money and other payment media used to resolve debts and the exchange of goods. Early money used by people is referred to as "Odd and Curious", but the use of other goods in barter exchange is excluded, even where used as a circulating currency (e.g., cigarettes in prison). The Kyrgyz people used horses as the principal currency unit and gave small change in lambskins;[1] the lambskins may be suitable for numismatic study, but the horse is not. Many objects have been used for centuries, such as cowry shells, precious metals, and gems.

Today, most transactions take place by a form of payment with either inherent, standardized, or credit value. Numismatic value may be used to refer to the value in excess of the monetary value conferred by law, which is known as the "collector value."

Economic and historical studies of money's use and development are an integral part of the numismatists' study of money's physical embodiment.

291808

A Flicker collection of other women riding Fast bikes:- http://www.pinterest.com/derek20001963/wicked-fast-chicks/

speedpro

1st January 2014, 10:46

Back a while, Tonto had a 125 Honda that got pretty hot. We made a small scoop that went down the side of the motor and directed air across the back fins of the cylinder via a shroud. No scientific evidence but it seemed to work.
As they say, There's nothing new in the world.

kel

1st January 2014, 11:37

Back a while, Tonto had a 125 Honda that got pretty hot. We made a small scoop that went down the side of the motor and directed air across the back fins of the cylinder via a shroud. As they say, There's nothing new in the world.

Speedpro, NACA paper 555 is older than we are!
Was Tonto's bike really a 125, I always thought he got a head start on the 150cc rule :shutup:

speedpro

1st January 2014, 20:31

I really don't know what size his engine was. All I know was that he rode really well, check the photos. I bumped into him in Perth. His Mum lived up Waneroo way from my place and he started working some place North. He'd started bodybuilding and was a bit chunkier than the last time I saw him in NZ.

The photos were taken at Wiri container terminal in probably 1985 or '86. Acres and acres of virgin asphalt.

cotswold

2nd January 2014, 15:19

From a different forum, A kit NSR500V cylinder

Moooools

2nd January 2014, 19:45

TZ350

2nd January 2014, 21:18

Page 900 ...

How to view all the images.

To find the good stuff. follow the link to see how to view all the images on the thread and their associated posts.

Avgas will kill any O2-sensor; pump fuel mixed with two-stroke oil will in theory do the same, but if you take care to heat the sensor to working temperature before starting the engine, and provided the sensor is not too close to the cylinder so it won't be hit by washed-through mixture, the sensor will last a long time.

I can hardly imagine that with the right injection timing you can avoid fuel entering the exhaust, certainly not over the entire rev range.
In order to make real power, the pipe needs to receive and subsequently push back about 40% of the cylinder capacity and I do not think you can separate air and fuel to such a degree that no fuel will enter the pipe. But in order to keep the sensor clean it will have to be fitted well away from the cylinder anyway.
At the end of the day it all depends on how the injection system is instructed to handle the various sensor signals.

http://www.vemssupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,97.0.html

Before calibrating an engine, it is first useful to have some concept of what you are trying to control. The following is a fairly brief overview of the internal combustion engine, which will hopefully give you a basic understanding of some fundamental principles and terminology, so that when you change a number in a box on your laptop, you have some idea of the effect it is having on the engine.

""Fuelling Theory ... Lets start with the theory then. We are concerned with spark ignition gasoline engines here. I am only going to cover gasoline, since Diesel is for trucks and diggers, and alcohol is for drinking and drag racing.""

http://195.159.109.134/vemsuk/forum/index.php/topic,97.0.html

292229

292539

There is good news and bad news.

The good news is, that after 40 liters of fuel and hours on the dyno the exhaust port dam and Belzona epoxy are still there and I am starting to get somewhere with setting up the EFI. The Beast idles at 3000 rpm and I can snap the throttle open to 100% and it will pull away very nicely.

Fiddled with the ignition and fueling but it it still detos around peak torque. The good/bad news is, my recent problems with the EFI look to have been pretty much self inflicted. I just checked the port timing and the exhaust and transfers are opening way to early and I am beginning to suspect that the compression is way to high for the fuel too, I will check that next.

292558

OK its humble pie time, turns out I am responsible for most of my problems with getting the EFI going.

Not only has the port timing been way out with the Ex opening at 70 deg ATDC and Transfers 110, when they should have been Ex 80 and Trans 115.

292559

I had to go and stuff up the compression ratio too, at 16:1 swept it was never going to work.

292555

After changing the barrel this squashed plug was a clue about the compression ratio being to high.

Over compression and wrong port timing have been the biggest source of my problems all along and my only excuse is that the motor must have been rushed together after a few drinks on a Friday night in a fit of enthusiasm to start playing with the Ecotrons EFI kit.

I guess if I had of been working with something more familiar like an OKO carb I would have twigged that there was something fundamentally wrong with the motor much earlier.

Fitted a new barrel with exhaust at 72% wide and opening 80 deg ATDC, Transfers open 114 ATDC, Inlet Opens 145 BTDC Closes 70 ATDC and Std head.

292556

Adjusting the fuel curve and ignition is real easy now, just requires time and a bit of patience. This is a really rough first cut but I expect to be able to polish it up nicely.

292557

The blue line is after a couple of runs to improve the pickup.

I am starting to feel optimistic.

Tonight's effort. The Beast is starting to snarl and it will pull away in top gear on the dyno from 3500rpm and WOT, try that with your carburetor.

292749

Red line is the best ever using a carb with this old cylinder and the Blue line is where I am at with fuel injection. In all fairness for a proper comparison it needs a proper head (the old head suited a dished piston) the original ignition map and chamber and a generator for the EFI. But I am pretty excited about the Ecotrons fuel injection system as its starting to be very easy to work with.

I think this EFI business is going to work out OK.

Me myself and i would like to see a bit more of the design process esp around the crankcases patterns

First I harvest the relevant information Yamaha left for me in their cases, shaft centers etc, X , Y and Z co-ordanence. Usually done in the manual milling machine.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4840_zps8eda7118.jpg

Then imput data into the computer that runs the CNC.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4841_zps16e45529.jpg

Then apply cut paths and tools and do the job on the computer screen long before it gets to the CNC.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4842_zps85eed07c.jpg

Glue suitable bits of board together

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_4526_zpseb3f1fd4.jpg

Press the button on the CNC, shut the door and wait.

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/IMG_0818_zps3c49ecb9.jpg

Just like that, well it's not quite that simple but you get the picture. I program the computer to put taper on everything and also can tell it to account for shrinkage so the casting ends up the right size ( casting will end up smaller than the pattern ).

Rules:
Solo motorcycles shall have two engine capacity classes:
F4
2 stroke 55-100cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled
4 stroke 55-150cc
F5
2 stroke 0-50cc
4 stroke 0-100cc air cooled

The maximum capacity for rebored engines shall be:
F4
2 stroke 55-100cc - 104cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled - 130.5cc
4 stroke 55-150cc – 158.09cc
F5
2 stroke 0-50cc - 53cc
4 stroke 0-100cc - 104cc

In any badly tuned 2T you can easily get readings over 1300*F and survive,ONLY if the setup is not optimal. If the com is too low for the fuel, or if the timing is overly retarded, then the excess heat produced late in the combustion cycle is dumped into the pipe and thus alot less is soaked into the piston. But just the mere fact the engine did survive that insane abuse, points to the fact that the setup is nowhere near correct.

It still amazes me though that people have gauges on the bike, skid around the track, see death numbers on the screen then ride back to the pit and tell everyone about what just happened. Why is the gauge there ? To help tune the engine,but what if the com was perfect and the timing dialled in correctly on a dyno. The same rider would then do several laps - watching the temps scream past 1250, lock it up at the end of the straight - THEN come in and say " I saw 1300 and shit ive siezed it, bastard thing".

If a correctly setup engine cannot be held under 1200*F by the jetting, then it should be richened immediately so that it can be. THEN, go down one size at a time and approx 50* rise should occur for each change, shooting for a max on AvGas of 1250*F.

If the change produces less than 50* delta in egt then that indicates that you are approaching deto rather than making more power from the extra heat of combustion.

The opposite is true as well, if more than 50* is seen with 1 jet leaner, then you can be sure the setup is not correct for the fuel and a heap of unused heat is being dumped into the pipe.

But, using excess fuel to cool the combustion process will not make anywhere near the actual power available ,if the ignition and com was optimised.

This means as a general rule for a fast watercooled 125 cylinder on AvGas that the com is close to 16:1 and the peak power timing is close to 15* - any numbers alot less than that then you dont need AvGas,and or you do need to rethink the tuning.

If you were to convert an engine as described to unleaded pump fuel, ROZ 98, which numbers would you choose, regarding compression, ignition timing and max EGT?

Depends largely on the end use and the bmep capability of the engine.

The defining factor is the dynamic compression - this is created by the addition of the static com and that created by the combination of trapping efficiency and the delivery ratio.

The higher the trapping and delivery efficiencies are then the max static com that can be tolerated short of detonation ,is reduced.

But a good example is a conversion I did to a brand new TM KZ10 kart engine. This was designed to run in open class and has a 60mm piston giving 152cc.

The regulations only allow unleaded pump gas, and initially it was run with the standard straight line ignition.

I played with a few combinations of com and static advance with a det sensor bolted to a head stud. This engine would have state of the art trapping and delivery numbers , especially with a VF3 and 36mm carb in place of the 30mm regulated unit.

Thus a fairly low com was needed to get the right combination of peak power and overev capability when pushing up against the over advance created by the non retarding ignition.

It ended up with 13.2:1 full stroke and this setup was right back at the original numbers of 15* advance and 1180*F - the lower egt caused by the excessive advance.

Any lower on the com and the peak dropped ( 58Hp crank @ 12800 ) but any higher and the peak remained constant but it detoed in the overev at 14400 +.
This deto could be suppressed by going richer, but then the power suffered everywhere.

With a proper ignition I would guess at 13.8 :1 and an egt up at 1280 as unleaded burns alot faster than AvGas and added to the extra retard able to be dialled in with a digital.

2T Institute

3rd January 2014, 16:52

From a different forum, A kit NSR500V cylinder

Remarkable by how ordinary it is, same scavenging pattern as CR, NSR(125, 250, 500) RS 125/250 and CR 500. Only departure from the script is water cooled cases on the 500V

F5 Dave

3rd January 2014, 17:25

If they weren't such evil fekers and spent some r&d on emissions, imagine what a stonking basis that layout would have made for a road bike. They sound like 2 CR250s and then some.

TZ350

3rd January 2014, 18:56

291873

Ok finally got the O2 and exhaust temperature sensors installed.

Ecotrons has been pushing me to do this, they need the Lambda info so they can better help me develop a good Alpha-N map.

No idea if they are in the optimum place but they will do for a start.

Had to change to un-leaded fuel but still have to drop the compression a touch to suit the 96.

291872

The air fuel meter and Lambda controller/transmitter.

291871

Using the cursors, with Cursor-1 I can see that at N_b 7206 rpm LamWO2 is rich at 0.85 and Cursor-2 lean at 1,247 Lam at 9120 rpm.

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Now that it all seems to be working I am really looking forward to getting a bit of time on the dyno to play with this thing.

Dodgy

3rd January 2014, 19:24

Has anyone else been playing about with EGT probes and had weird readings?

I installed a dual Koso with Stinger probes on my MC28 (almost a bucket). These are 110mm from the piston face. Ozzy jetted it up on his dyno and we were getting 1250deg peak and running nicely.

Fast forward to a session at Manfield and they peaked at 1440deg. It didn't feel lean at all, but slowed down and came off WFO as the revs came up and managed to keep temp down to 1250 again. After speaking with one dude with an Aprilia/Wobbly 400, he kinda put the fear of god into me about the readings. Well, the bike sat in the garage for a while as I was distracted with the new GSXR100 and a wedding. Pulled off the heads and exhaust, expecting to see some sign of damage, but nothing.

I am wondering if the probe is installed too far into the gas stream? The installation notes specify halfway in, but I am not even that far in. I didn't do a plug chop, but as you can see, there is no sign of damage on the piston crown, and no ring smear, etc either...

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Frits Overmars

3rd January 2014, 19:30

Ok finally got the O2 and exhaust temperature sensors installed. No idea if they are in the optimum place Both are looking good, but do not move them any closer to the cylinder. And remember to heat the lambda sensor before starting the engine; otherwise oil will soon choke it.

with Cursor-1 I can see that at N_b 7206 rpm LamWO2 is rich at 0.85 and Cursor-2 lean at 1,247 Lam at 9120 rpm.1,247 is definitely too lean but 0,85 is about optimal for best power. That goes for both two- and four-strokes.

TZ350

3rd January 2014, 19:55

Both are looking good, but do not move them any closer to the cylinder. And remember to heat the lambda sensor before starting the engine; otherwise oil will soon choke it.

1,247 is definitely too lean but 0,85 is about optimal for best power. That goes for both two- and four-strokes.

Great, thanks for that. I am flying a bit blind here, so I am greatfull for the input.

TZ350

3rd January 2014, 21:18

The combination of port and pipe is firmly set at 12,000 so this is what I would use as a baseline.

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Its initial drop off is to get it to idle well from the big static, plenty of mid advance for throttle response and then enough for a good peak ( assuming correct com cc ) but falling further to help revon.

Ok I have nearly finished fitting the Aprilia TPS and now its time to think about ignition curves again. I got into trouble at Taupo and Kaitoke by having a to aggresive ignition curve which was great for WOT but over advanced for reduced throttle settings.

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This is Wobblys suggestion for my engine on wide open throttle WOT but will need to be retarded around the peak torqe point when the throttle is partly closed.

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Here is an Aprilia RS250 curve sent to me by Kel and you can see that above 8,000rpm when its starting to get on the pipe the WOT curve is the most advanced and the curves retard as the throttle opening is reduced.

Posted because I was asked about my old Ignitec curve .....

Neal

3rd January 2014, 23:07

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That's not a 250 cylinder ! I thought that the probe had to protrude to half way in the pipe but I could be wrong . Mine is 110mm from the piston if I remember correctly from earlier discussions .
My readings would go over 1250 but I would just roll off and reject until it remained at 1200 ish on avgas .
Is it possible that the colour is not a true reflection of a wide open 30 second plug chop ?

TZ350

4th January 2014, 08:06

From PitLane:- http://www.pit-lane.biz/t4072p20-gp125-all-that-you-wanted-to-know-on-aprilia-rsa-125-and-more-by-mr-jan-thiel-and-mr-frits-overmars-part-3

If the crankcase would behave like a pump, you would be right. But when the engine is running in the power band, it is no longer a pump; it is a resonator.
I thought that it is a pump exactly until that point, where the transfers open.
That is right. But it is a very ineffective pump: its volume ratio is only between inlet closing and transfer opening.

I thought, that the crankcase pressure was lower right before transfer opening with a larger crankcase. Maybe I forget the influences of the previous cycle
Yes, that may be the case.

All in all: You still think, the bigger, the better, Frits?

A large crankcase volume is good but with a very large case the flow velocity inside the case will become so low that fuel and air separate.

If we had direct fuel injection, I would definitely say 'the bigger the better'.

In practice this means opening the crankcase to the atmosphere as soon as the pressure inside the case allows it.

With a good engine running at rpm of maximum torque that would be about 15° after BDC.

In theory that is also valid for an engine with a carburetter but in practice the pulse signal to the carburetter jets would be so weak that it would be difficult to achieve good carburation.

Direct fuel injection ... really big crankcase volumes.

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Himmmmm ....:scratch: now how could I get a huge amount more crankcase volume??? nope nothing obvious there.

wobbly

4th January 2014, 08:12

In any badly tuned 2T you can easily get readings over 1300*F and survive,ONLY if the setup is not optimal.
If the com is too low for the fuel, or if the timing is overly retarded, then the excess heat produced late in the combustion cycle is dumped into the pipe
and thus alot less is soaked into the piston.
But just the mere fact the engine did survive that insane abuse, points to the fact that the setup is nowhere near correct.
It still amazes me though that people have gauges on the bike, skid around the track, see death numbers on the screen then ride back to the pit and tell everyone about what just happened.
Why is the gauge there ? To help tune the engine,but what if the com was perfect and the timing dialled in correctly on a dyno.
The same rider would then do several laps - watching the temps scream past 1250, lock it up at the end of the straight - THEN come in and say " I saw 1300 and shit ive siezed it, bastard thing".
If a correctly setup engine cannot be held under 1200*F by the jetting, then it should be richened immediately so that it can be.
THEN, go down one size at a time and approx 50* rise should occur for each change, shooting for a max on AvGas of 1250*F.
If the change produces less than 50* delta in egt then that indicates that you are approaching deto rather than making more power from the extra heat of combustion.
The opposite is true as well, if more than 50* is seen with 1 jet leaner, then you can be sure the setup is not correct for the fuel and a heap of unused heat is being dumped into the pipe.
But, using excess fuel to cool the combustion process will not make anywhere near the actual power available ,if the ignition and com was optimised.
This means as a general rule for a fast watercooled 125 cylinder on AvGas that the com is close to 16:1 and the peak power timing is close to 15* - any numbers alot less than that
then you dont need AvGas,and or you do need to rethink the tuning.

fbear40

4th January 2014, 16:11

No idea if they are in the optimum place but they will do for a start.

Had to change to un-leaded fuel but still have to drop the compression a touch to suit the 96.

Move to unleaded might benefit the thermally challenged as well as a drop in comp

TZ350

4th January 2014, 19:50

Heres some pics from today. Its been a warm day and no rain.

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Looks like another great weekends racing at Taumaranui.

F5 Dave

4th January 2014, 19:58

2 stroke new lap record there too. Just thought I'd say:innocent: today. Just in case someone beats it tomorrow. Actually I think Kel and Rick are 2nd and third fastest on smokers.