ESE's works engine tuner

[TZ350]

2 stroke new lap record there too. Just thought I'd sayhttp://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/smilies/innocent.gif today. Just in case someone beats it tomorrow. Actually I think Kel and Rick are 2nd and third fastest on smokers.

So is that F5 - Kel - Rick ??? all 2T's and top of the leader board ???

[F5 Dave]

Well Regan is pretty in it too but I think so.

[Haufen]

This means as a general rule for a fast watercooled 125 cylinder on AvGas that the com is close to 16:1 and the peak power timing is close to 15* - any numbers alot less than that
then you dont need AvGas,and or you do need to rethink the tuning.

If you were to convert an engine as described to unleaded pump fuel, ROZ 98, which numbers would you choose, regarding compression, ignition timing and max EGT?

[wobbly]

Depends largely on the end use and the bmep capability of the engine.
The defining factor is the dynamic compression - this is created by the addition of the static com and that created by the combination of trapping efficiency and the delivery ratio.
The higher the trapping and delivery efficiencies are then the max static com that can be tolerated short of detonation ,is reduced.
But a good example is a conversion I did to a brand new TM KZ10 kart engine.
This was designed to run in open class and has a 60mm piston giving 152cc.
The regulations only allow unleaded pump gas, and initially it was run with the standard straight line ignition.
I played with a few combinations of com and static advance with a det sensor bolted to a head stud.
This engine would have state of the art trapping and delivery numbers , especially with a VF3 and 36mm carb in place of the 30mm regulated unit.
Thus a fairly low com was needed to get the right combination of peak power and overev capability when pushing up against the over advance created by the non retarding ignition.
It ended up with 13.2:1 full stroke and this setup was right back at the original numbers of 15* advance and 1180*F - the lower egt caused by the excessive advance.
Any lower on the com and the peak dropped ( 58Hp crank @ 12800 ) but any higher and the peak remained constant but it detoed in the overev at 14400 +.
This deto could be suppressed by going richer, but then the power suffered everywhere.
With a proper ignition I would guess at 13.8 :1 and an egt up at 1280 as unleaded burns alot faster than AvGas and added to the extra retard able to be dialled in with a digital.

[TZ350]

I am now starting to make some headway with tuning the Beast and I am beginning to enjoy using the Ecotrons small engine EFI kit for two strokes and its 2T tuning softaware.

291979

Recorded some RPM and TPS data along with the Lambda O2 sensor.

This is an expanded section of the recorded data with TPS at the top, RPM in the middle and Lambda at the bottom. The curser shows the Lambda is 0.86, rpm 6.5k and TPS 99%.

291980

Exported the Alpha-N map to Excel. Using a spreed sheet makes it easy to manipulate the map and keep the steps between cells smooth.

291981

The thick blue line is the Lambda and its max lean where its flat on top and the bottom of the dips is Lambda 0.8 - 0.88 ish. The red line is TPS and thin blue is RPM.

By printing out the Alpha-N map and studying the Lambda-RPM-TPS data I can see where to make changes in the table.

Its starting to feel like progress but I have not got so far as to have a worthwhile dyno graph to show off yet.

[TZ350]

.

:doh: ..... just realized that I have done the whole evenings tuning work without the battery charger hooked up to the battery so as to have a stable EFI supply voltage.

How many more ways can I find to make mistakes with this thing ...... :laugh:

[Farmaken]

.

:doh: ..... just realized that I have done the whole evenings tuning work without the battery charger hooked up for a stable EFI supply voltage.

How many more ways I can I find to make mistakes with this thing ...... :laugh:

Keep going TeeZee - they say that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Thank you for re-posting your ignition curve, I loaded it into my Ignitech for Taumarunui and the bike ran great ( apart from a carb flooding issue ) much better drive at low-mid Rpm and plenty of over-rev as well.

[Frits Overmars]

... just realized that I have done the whole evenings tuning work without the battery charger hooked up to the battery so as to have a stable EFI supply voltage.Maybe that was just your luck. I once blew a very expensive ignition system because I left the charger connected to the battery.
That charger delivered close to 20 V instead of the supposed 13 V. I only checked after the ignition had gone :(.

[Cheesy]

This may be of no use or you may already know. In Excel if you plot a set of data points (ie xy scatter graph) if you put the mouse on a data point you can click and drag it and it will update the raw data. This might be of use for tweaking your maps

[136kg136ps]

A thought for 2015s project..would it be possible to make an adaptor to convert a single cylinder crankcase to a V configuration allowing the use of a wider variety of available 50cc cylinders.I remember seeing that higher BMEPs were possible with smaller engines as well.Certainly it would seem the cylinders would be mostly reed as I don't envision the common intake flowing enough nor would it seem possible as an RV unless a twingle.

[Flettner]

Why make an adaptor, cast a new one, that way you get exatly what you want.

[F5 Dave]

I've held 2 RG50 cases together and pondered that. Would be legal too. But still easy with a single to get a raceable package.

[TZ350]

port on the corner lived up to previous years exploits but with no injuries, apart from the stench that ended up all over the 2 participents caused by very stagnent water.....:lol:

292044

I have to say watching Malcolm finish a very close 2nd to team GPRs factory rider in heavy rain was outstanding, meh do I hear?

Malcolm was the only A grade rider on Slicks.........Awesome

Yesterday was brilliantly fine, today its raining, that's New Zealand for you. Strangely not many NZers bother with rain coats.


I got some limited footage of all the A-Grade stuff. Had to stand in an awkward place to get out of the rain, so probably got about 3/4 of the track.
Brent should get some footage up in a little while.

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/ejZdQlFS0Dw" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

Taumaranui a grade race 1, the other A grade races can be seen here:- http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/162256-Taumarunui-4-5-January-NI-Round-I-dunno-2-maybe?p=1130659210#post1130659210

[TZ350]

292062

With Lambda at 0.76 its a little rich at 11.6K rpm, the Lambda (bottom line) hovers mostly around 0.9 - 1.0 so a little lean for best power every where else.

But look at the Lambda line, there is no big peaks and hollows now, Ecotrons recorded data and data analyzer software is sure a big help with sorting out the fueling.

[136kg136ps]

Flettner,watching you guys cast complex forms is like magic to me.I can machine simple forms manually or even program CNC but your work is an art.Ideally I'd like to incorporate everything that has been shared in one motor but my other limitation is the wallet.Off the (ebay)shelf parts and sweat equity it is.

[kel]

My air cooled 125 finally fell victim to over heating last weekend
The aim now is to reduce as much heat as possible from getting to the motor and to increase the motors ability to shed heat.
The cylinder and head have been sand blasted and now need coating. Has anyone tried Boron Nitride? Is there a source in NZ that's cheaper than the $235 a tin stuff from evolution motorsports
Stopping the heat from the exhaust soaking into the motor would seem to make sense. Exhaust wrap is cheap, is there a reason no one seems to use it (corrosion issues aside)? What about ceramic coating of the exhaust has anyone tried this on 2 strokes? Is the extra cost over wrap warranted?
Cheers

[Yow Ling]

My air cooled 125 finally fell victim to over heating last weekend
The aim now is to reduce as much heat as possible from getting to the motor and to increase the motors ability to shed heat.
The cylinder and head have been sand blasted and now need coating. Has anyone tried Boron Nitride? Is there a source in NZ that's cheaper than the $235 a tin stuff from evolution motorsports
Stopping the heat from the exhaust soaking into the motor would seem to make sense. Exhaust wrap is cheap, is there a reason no one seems to use it (corrosion issues aside)? What about ceramic coating of the exhaust has anyone tried this on 2 strokes? Is the extra cost over wrap warranted?
Cheers

Why not put a 100cc water cooled cylinder on it, like Frits suggests

[wobbly]

Coating the inside of the exhaust port with ceramic to reduce head soak into the cylinder material worked a treat on the Britten V1000, to stop boiling on the start grid.
As would have doing the same to the pipes interior, that would have increased the scavenging wave energy.
But coating the duct and or then wrapping/coating the header is way bad in a 2T.
The overscavenged air/fuel mix sitting near the piston that gets shoved back into the cylinder by the return wave, becomes over heated by the hotter surrounding surfaces
and this then heats up the combustion mix - where it instantly creates deto.
Been there, done that, no free lunch.

[ken seeber]

I worked for quite some time at a company called Orbital Engine Company in Perth WA. In the early days of the development of a 3 cyl 1200 cc DI two stroke engine, we decided that the engine, which for simplicity reasons had to incorporate exh valves operating on a single axis parallel to the crank, therefore necessarily the cylinder scavenge axis had to be normal to engine longitudunal axis. This is unlike the skewed scavenge axis which is quite common on multicylinder outboard engines. The skewing allowed the transfer passages to "nest" in to each other allowing the cylinder spacing to be minimised.

In our case, we developed a compact transfer port layout that had 100 mm bore centres with an 84 bore. To compare its performance with other 400 cc engines (of the day 100 years ago) we set up a Suzuki PE400 engine in one of our test cells. We made some trial cylinders with our scavenging system (the X porting system we called it), these being able to fit on to the PE400 lower half and this allowed us to directly compare the watercooled X system with the air cooled PE400 cylinder and head.

Getting back to the story, it became clear, as expected, that the air cooled engine very quickly lost its performance as it warmed up. This fact is also well known, particularly in go kart engine circles where air cooling it still used for certain classes (eg Yamaha KT100J and KT100S). Compared to a bike with a gearbox and a half decent exhaust, these have a low specific output, say 18 hp for 100 cc.

So, how to combat this? Firstly we blasted it with strong air flows and this helped, but the best was was to put some micro irrigation jets in front of the barrel and head. The latent heat of vaporization of the water did the rest, quickly bringing the performance up to that of a cold engine.

Getting back to the issue of Kel's cooked 125 air cooled engine, I can offer the following uptions:
1. Carry a small tank of water on the bike with this spraying or dribbling over the motor
2. If you perspire enough, have a catch arrangement inside your race suit and run this via a hose to the engine
3. For karting, I have often wondered if a small "leak" incorporated into the pressure side of the Walbro pumper carb (which is usually in front of the engine on piston ported inlet engines) might be beneficial to allow fuel to flow/trickle over the engine and evaporate. Some tech dudes might see some safety issues with this one however.
4. Back to the racesuit. You could also drink lots of water before your race and, in conjunction with a good controllable diuretic and a hose connected to your good self, perhaps cool the engine that way. Might smell a tad though.


Thanks Ken Strike Products

[koba]

Getting back to the issue of Kel's cooked 125 air cooled engine, I can offer the following uptions:
1. Carry a small tank of water on the bike with this spraying or dribbling over the motor
2. If you perspire enough, have a catch arrangement inside your race suit and run this via a hose to the engine
3. For karting, I have often wondered if a small "leak" incorporated into the pressure side of the Walbro pumper carb (which is usually in front of the engine on piston ported inlet engines) might be beneficial to allow fuel to flow/trickle over the engine and evaporate. Some tech dudes might see some safety issues with this one however.
4. Back to the racesuit. You could also drink lots of water before your race and, in conjunction with a good controllable diuretic and a hose connected to your good self, perhaps cool the engine that way. Might smell a tad though.



Haha, interesting post, welcome along. :killingme

I'm managing to keep up reasonably well on an Aircooled engine with 18hp.
Perhaps that is because it gets pissed all over when it comes to dyno numbers?!

[pete376403]

(snip interestingstuff) Getting back to the issue of Kel's cooked 125 air cooled engine, I can offer the following uptions:
1. Carry a small tank of water on the bike with this spraying or dribbling over the motor
2. If you perspire enough, have a catch arrangement inside your race suit and run this via a hose to the engine
3. For karting, I have often wondered if a small "leak" incorporated into the pressure side of the Walbro pumper carb (which is usually in front of the engine on piston ported inlet engines) might be beneficial to allow fuel to flow/trickle over the engine and evaporate. Some tech dudes might see some safety issues with this one however.
4. Back to the racesuit. You could also drink lots of water before your race and, in conjunction with a good controllable diuretic and a hose connected to your good self, perhaps cool the engine that way. Might smell a tad though.


Thanks Ken Strike Products

Would this not be considered watercooling and so be illegal for that capacity? How is water cooling defined in the rules?

[koba]

Would this not be considered watercooling and so be illegal for that capacity? How is water cooling defined in the rules?
Number one would certainly be out, but I think he may have been taking the piss...

Rules:

Solo motorcycles shall have two engine capacity classes:

F4
2 stroke 55-100cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled
4 stroke 55-150cc

F5
2 stroke 0-50cc
4 stroke 0-100cc air cooled



The maximum capacity for rebored engines shall be:

F4
2 stroke 55-100cc - 104cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled - 130.5cc
4 stroke 55-150cc – 158.09cc

F5
2 stroke 0-50cc - 53cc
4 stroke 0-100cc - 104cc

[koba]

What if I have a 54cc Two-stroke? :wacko:

[speedpro]

I worked for quite some time at a company called Orbital Engine Company in Perth WA.

I applied for a job there in '87-'88. Didn't get it but had a good look around the factory. Very very interesting. The original Orbital engine was sitting on top of some lockers or something like that, tossed in a corner sort of thing.

[pete376403]

The water spray idea is good, the other three are obviously facetious.

Tyrell used water spray cooled brakes in F1 years ago (although the real reason was weight. Cars were allowed to be refilled with fluids prior to post-race weighing. Dumping a lot of water during the race gave them a weight advantage)

But - what defines water cooling? If water spray is illegal then can an air-cooled bike race in the rain?

[koba]

The water spray idea is good, the other three are obviously facetious.

Tyrell used water spray cooled brakes in F1 years ago (although the real reason was weight. Cars were allowed to be refilled with fluids prior to post-race weighing. Dumping a lot of water during the race gave them a weight advantage)

But - what defines water cooling? If water spray is illegal then can an air-cooled bike race in the rain?

The rules say "air cooled" so it has to be that, I'd interpret any intentional effort to cool with anything other than air as cheating.
Internal Fuel cooling effect has to be excepted on common sense grounds.

Rain is just a 'bonus' lots of power when you least need it!

[F5 Dave]

Hey Ken, good to have you on board. Any other stories of the like would be welcome.

[F5 Dave]

Coating the inside of the exhaust port with ceramic to reduce head soak into the cylinder material worked a treat on the Britten V1000, to stop boiling on the start grid.
As would have doing the same to the pipes interior, that would have increased the scavenging wave energy.
But coating the duct and or then wrapping/coating the header is way bad in a 2T.
The overscavenged air/fuel mix sitting near the piston that gets shoved back into the cylinder by the return wave, becomes over heated by the hotter surrounding surfaces
and this then heats up the combustion mix - where it instantly creates deto.
Been there, done that, no free lunch.
Sadly so have I and I didn't learn the first time. Actually the wrap didn't make much of a diff on my 50 bar 200rpm, and when I HPC coated the pipe it was about the same.

on my RZ/CPI496 (I was keen on a nice pipe finish for a road bike, worked ok on my 750SP) - it raised the revs about 900 so I got them stripped which brought it back down to calculated. Big vs small cylinders behave differently it seems. Never again.

[husaberg]

Hey Ken, good to have you on board. Any other stories of the like would be welcome.

And some 50mm ish pistons with low gudgeon heights wouldn't hurt Mr Strike.......
What would be the minimum order we would need to come up with?

[F5 Dave]

Oh! That's who it is. 51mm KT100S would be peachy.:cool: Maybe with a 15 or 16mm pin while I'm dreaming.

[Grumph]

The water spray idea is good, the other three are obviously facetious.

Tyrell used water spray cooled brakes in F1 years ago (although the real reason was weight. Cars were allowed to be refilled with fluids prior to post-race weighing. Dumping a lot of water during the race gave them a weight advantage)

But - what defines water cooling? If water spray is illegal then can an air-cooled bike race in the rain?

i know of at least one "production" class rally car which had a windscreen washer diverted to spray the intercooler....worth quite a bit of HP I was told.

I still think an oil cooler on the gearbox is worthwhile - and legal - particularly for the longer big circuit races.

[speedpro]

I diverted my windscreen washer to the carb through a jet on the 2.3L turbo I had in my Mitsi L200. Ran 10psi with no probs with the water and rattled a bit at 5psi without.

A wet aircooled bucket was quite useful at Taupo a few years ago. Made the same power the whole race.

[TZ350]

I still think an oil cooler on the gearbox is worthwhile - and legal -

Yep, watch this space .... :msn-wink:

[teriks]

Yep, watch this space .... :msn-wink:


291888

Himmmmm ....:scratch: now how could I get a huge amount more crankcase volume??? nope nothing obvious there.
I bet those not so obvious crankcase volume enhancing parts would be an excellent return path from that oil cooler, right?

[TZ350]

I bet those not so obvious crankcase volume enhancing parts would be an excellent return path from that oil cooler, right?

......... ;)

[Grumph]

Yep, watch this space .... :msn-wink:

i'm looking forward with a great deal of interest to see how you manage it with a belt CVT........

[TZ350]

I still think an oil cooler on the gearbox is worthwhile - and legal -

292108
I bet those not so obvious crankcase volume enhancing parts would be an excellent return path from that oil cooler, right?

Yep, watch this space .... :msn-wink:

i'm looking forward with a great deal of interest to see how you manage it with a belt CVT........

Hmmmm I see your point......:laugh:

[pete376403]

Back to the cooling spray, etc. All engines are air cooled, they just vary in the medium that gets the heat from inside the engine to the atmosphere. Aluminium, water or oil, are all just a method of heat transfer and dissipation

[koba]

Back to the cooling spray, etc. All engines are air cooled, they just vary in the medium that gets the heat from inside the engine to the atmosphere. Aluminium, water or oil, are all just a method of heat transfer and dissipation

Yeah, but we all know what the rules mean, imagine reading, or writing a rulebook that had to cover technical semantics to that point...

I'd rather build a bike and race it.

TZ, Kel and many others on here are capable of building winning bike without trying to get in to tricky shit.

Kel already has actually, that thing is a rocket.

[Yow Ling]

Considering that the road race commissioner considered water injection to be water cooling , I think there may be a problem with external watercooling.

[jasonu]

Yeah, but we all know what the rules mean, imagine reading, or writing a rulebook that had to cover technical semantics to that point...

I'd rather build a bike and race it.

TZ, Kel and many others on here are capable of building winning bike without trying to get in to tricky shit.

Kel already has actually, that thing is a rocket.

Yeah well said.

[FastFred]

4t - 2t .......

OK so you were just curious and wanted to try the 4T thing.

292131

But if getting around town with a 4T is really just not your thing.

292132

Then get real and make that 4T into a H2O 100cc 2T

292130

RG400 cylinder fits ok

292133

Block the lower crankcase off and still have plenty of crankcase volume.

292129

[FastFred]

2t - 4t ......

292136

Remodel the cam chain tunnel and timing chest for the transfer ducts.

292137

Reed valve inlet at the side on the bottom.

292134

Plenty of case volume.

292135

Or you could use a pumper carb and run the reed inlet in through the top.

292138

Because real men don't need 4 Strokes to get the job done.

[Frits Overmars]

Yeah, but we all know what the rules mean, imagine reading, or writing a rulebook that had to cover technical semantics to that point...Never mind what the rules mean. All that matters is what the rules state. Writing a clear, simple rulebook is no rocket science but just a matter of using your brain and a little logic. If the rules are unclear or ambiguous, take advantage of them.

[TZ350]

http://www.vemssupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,97.0.html

Before calibrating an engine, it is first useful to have some concept of what you are trying to control. The following is a fairly brief overview of the internal combustion engine, which will hopefully give you a basic understanding of some fundamental principles and terminology, so that when you change a number in a box on your laptop, you have some idea of the effect it is having on the engine.

""Fuelling Theory ... Lets start with the theory then. We are concerned with spark ignition gasoline engines here. I am only going to cover gasoline, since Diesel is for trucks and diggers, and alcohol is for drinking and drag racing.""

http://195.159.109.134/vemsuk/forum/index.php/topic,97.0.html

[TZ350]

292203

Ok, making progress, that's if you can call getting it wrong progress.

292202

Ecotrons has a very clever self tuning feature where you tell the map what Lambda you want at what RPM and the ECU will read the ALM O2 sensor and adjust the mixture for you.

292204

The green squares on the map are where the ECU has completed the tuning process and delivered the Lambda asked for.

But http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/smilies/redface.gif you do have to ask for the right Lambda value for the engine. And this is where I went wrong tonight, I made the lower end to rich and eventually after a lot of auto tuning work the motor could not pull the skin of a rice pudding and drag itself into the power band.

On a rolling road dyno you can only do this auto tuning at low RPM and light loads because the Auto Tuning function needs the throttle and rpm to be held steady for 10 seconds or so to work.

The auto tuning feature works better and you can cover more of the map if you can ride on the road and use the head wind as a load or better yet, use a dyno with a brake to hold the engine steady.

292205

My mistake was asking for to rich a Lambda at low throttle settings, and having the bike struggling to pickup on the dyno. I had made the map 0.85 Lambda everywhere, I should have stuck with the default map that had Lambda 1 at low RPM and dropping to Lambda 0.85 - 0.82 at max power.

But being able to make planned mistakes is a step better than just making ignorant mistakes and not knowing why.

So .... its progress ... :D

[Haufen]

My mistake was asking for to rich a Lambda at low throttle settings, and having the bike struggling to pickup on the dyno. I had made the map 0.85 Lambda everywhere, I should have stuck with the default map that had Lambda 1 at low RPM and dropping to Lambda 0.85 - 0.82 at max power.

But being able to make planned mistakes is a step better than just making ignorant mistakes and not knowing why.

So .... its progress ... :D

Do you mean low throttle settings or full throttle low rpm? Regarding the latter, you should be able to run Lambda 0,85 (and richer) without 4-stroking from about 3000 rpm to top rpm if ignition timing is in the right ballpark. Also, a properly designed combustion chamber (high msv type) should make tuning the EFI easier for you as it's less sensitive to 4-stroking.

[Frits Overmars]

Ok, making progress, that's if you can call getting it wrong progress.Getting it wrong and realizing it will teach you more than just getting it right the first time. So yes, you can definitely call it progress.


My mistake was asking for to rich a Lambda at low throttle settings, and having the bike struggling to pickup on the dyno. I had made the map 0.85 Lambda everywhere, I should have stuck with the default map that had Lambda 1 at low RPM and dropping to Lambda 0.85 - 0.82 at max power.I know it and you know it, but I can't repeat it often enough: lambda does not tell you rich or lean; it only tells you how much oxygen it sees in the exhaust gases.
At low throttle settings the engine will occasionally miss a combustion cycle, which sends all inhaled oxygen straight into the exhaust.
If you try to adjust the resulting lambda readout by jetting richer, you will smother the engine wit a very rich mixture (and cause even more misfiring).

[TZ350]

Thanks Haufen and Frits, good points. Thanks for the Heads-Up, I am looking forward to having another go, hopefully tonight.

[cotswold]

old school adjustable chamber

[TZ350]

4t - 2t .......

OK so you were just curious and wanted to try the 4T thing.

292131

But if getting around town with a 4T is really just not your thing.

292132

Then get real and make that 4T into a H2O 100cc 2T


292454

Not sure I would go this way

Interestingly Chambers is actively building a CVT hybrid.

He is grafting his old GP100 engine onto a set of 4 stroke GY6 CVT cases to power his side car.

The last time the 100 ran it was 22hp hopefully we can increase that a bit.

[TZ350]

I know it and you know it, but I can't repeat it often enough: lambda does not tell you rich or lean; it only tells you how much oxygen it sees in the exhaust gases.

At low throttle settings the engine will occasionally miss a combustion cycle, which sends all inhaled oxygen straight into the exhaust.
If you try to adjust the resulting lambda readout by jetting richer, you will smother the engine wit a very rich mixture (and cause even more misfiring).

292488

Getting some where now. Just before the courser is a spike in the Lambda line, this could be an example of what Frits has talked about where a miss fire dumps a whole lot of oxygen into the chamber.

292489

Anyway the good old lead free 96 detonates real bad as the engine rpm approaches the torque peak so its an ideal time to try some Octane improver.

[koba]

I used to like the Idea of Fuel Injection.
I'm over that now.

[TZ350]

I used to like the Idea of Fuel Injection.
I'm over that now.

Me too just about.

[koba]

Me too just about.

Your in balls deep though.
Glad I'm not.

It's still prob worth persevering with given the investment in time an energy so far.
If you do get it going good it might well be the shiz.

I'll still stick with shuffling brass though!

[TZ350]

292492

Did a bunch of runs from 20% to 100% TPS tonight.

292491

80% TPS

Interestingly the runs improved up to 80% TPS then got worse out to WOT.

Also the Octane booster at 10cc per liter of 96 did noticeably improve things but not 100% as there was still some deto but no where near as bad as before.

Tomorrow night, I will try 98 + octane boost.

[Flettner]

292488

Getting some where now. Just before the courser is a spike in the Lambda line, this could be an example of what Frits is talked about where a miss fire dumps a whole lot of oxygen into the chamber.

292489

Anyway the good old lead free 96 detonates real bad as the engine rpm approaches the torque peak so its an ideal time to try some Octane improver.

Remember what I said, with injection ( injection timing control up the transfer ) the spill out the exhaust may well be just air this will tell the oxygen sensor it's too lean. BUT the combustion mixture is just right.
You need to measure the mixture trapped in the combustion chamber. A bit tricky.
I wouldn't bother with an oxygen sensor, it might be a bit like my cat and tell you lies.

[F5 Dave]

. .
I wouldn't bother with an oxygen sensor, it might be a bit like my cat and tell you lies.
What like she hasn't been fed? Mine does that too.

[chrisc]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/classic-vintage/auction-686119218.htm

[Flettner]

What like she hasn't been fed? Mine does that too.

It seems to be magnetized to the fridge!

[TZ350]

292539

There is good news and bad news.

The good news is, that after 40 liters of fuel and hours on the dyno the exhaust port dam and Belzona epoxy are still there and I am starting to get somewhere with setting up the EFI. The Beast idles at 3000 rpm and I can snap the throttle open to 100% and it will pull away very nicely.

Fiddled with the ignition and fueling but it it still detos around peak torque. The good/bad news is, my recent problems with the EFI look to have been pretty much self inflicted. I just checked the port timing and the exhaust and transfers are opening way to early and I am beginning to suspect that the compression is way to high for the fuel too, I will check that next.

[Frits Overmars]

292539

There is good news and bad news.

The good news is, that after 40 liters of fuel and hours on the dyno the exhaust port dam and Belzona epoxy are still there and I am starting to get somewhere with setting up the EFI. The Beast idles at 3000 rpm and I can snap the throttle open to 100% and it will pull away very nicely.
Fiddled with the ignition and fueling but it it still detos around peak torque. The good/bad news is, my recent problems with the EFI look to have been pretty much self inflicted. I just checked the port timing and the exhaust and transfers are opening way to early and I am beginning to suspect that the compression is way to high for the fuel too, I will check that next.Even if the fuel would tolerate a high compression ratio I would keep it low in the interest of power and flexibility (overrev).
Too-high transfer ports are a sure-fire recipe for detonation; they take away blowdown time.area and hot exhaust gas will enter the transfer ducts, quickly heating up the cylinder and the fresh charge in the transfers.

The exhaust dam plus Belzona, while very good for flow and exhaust pulse efficiency, may play a deto-provoking role too. There is bound to be a resistance in the heat-path from the dam to the cylinder metal, so the dam will heat up and in turn heat the washed-through and pushed-back fresh charge. In a watercooled cylinder I would try to wet the underside of the dam but in your case there is not much you can do about it, apart from welding the dam in instead of screwing/glueing it in.

[Haufen]

292539

There is good news and bad news.

The good news is, that after 40 liters of fuel and hours on the dyno the exhaust port dam and Belzona epoxy are still there and I am starting to get somewhere with setting up the EFI. The Beast idles at 3000 rpm and I can snap the throttle open to 100% and it will pull away very nicely.

Fiddled with the ignition and fueling but it it still detos around peak torque. The good/bad news is, my recent problems with the EFI look to have been pretty much self inflicted. I just checked the port timing and the exhaust and transfers are opening way to early and I am beginning to suspect that the compression is way to high for the fuel too, I will check that next.

Sounds good to me. I found that Weicon titanium works good in an exhaust duct, too. At least in a race engine which is looked after rather often. Which type of belzona did (http://www.belzona.com/en/products.aspx)you use on your exhaust floor dam?

I also used some product of 3M with surprisingly excellent adhesion to the piston skirt. What flattened me was that the area where I applied it was rather large (about 2cm²), the layer was several mm thick and it was not surrounded by piston material or the cylinder bore in every direction ,yet it withstood every thinkable abuse. Unfortunately I forgot it's name, I will do a search later on. It was greyish, single or dual compound and turned brownish after a while.

[koba]

I also used some product of 3M with surprisingly excellent adhesion to the piston skirt. What flattened me was that the area where I applied it was rather large (about 2cm²), the layer was several mm thick and it was not surrounded by piston material or the cylinder bore in every direction ,yet it withstood every thinkable abuse. Unfortunately I forgot it's name, I will do a search later on. It was greyish, single or dual compound and turned brownish after a while.

:shit::gob:

Edit: Got pics?

[F5 Dave]

It seems to be magnetized to the fridge!
Now that sounds like my 3yr old daughter, convinced that there must be more Popsicles in there if we keep dragging tall people over to look.

[TZ350]

292558

OK its humble pie time, turns out I am responsible for most of my problems with getting the EFI going.


292539

my problems with the EFI look to have been pretty much self inflicted. I just checked the port timing and the exhaust and transfers are opening way to early and I am beginning to suspect that the compression is way to high for the fuel too, I will check that next.

Not only has the port timing been way out with the Ex opening at 70 deg ATDC and Transfers 110, when they should have been Ex 80 and Trans 115.

292559

I had to go and stuff up the compression ratio too, at 16:1 swept it was never going to work.

292555

After changing the barrel this squashed plug was a clue about the compression ratio being to high.

Over compression and wrong port timing have been the biggest source of my problems all along and my only excuse is that the motor must have been rushed together after a few drinks on a Friday night in a fit of enthusiasm to start playing with the Ecotrons EFI kit.

I guess if I had of been working with something more familiar like an OKO carb I would have twigged that there was something fundamentally wrong with the motor much earlier.

Fitted a new barrel with exhaust at 72% wide and opening 80 deg ATDC, Transfers open 114 ATDC, Inlet Opens 145 BTDC Closes 70 ATDC and Std head.

292556

Adjusting the fuel curve and ignition is real easy now, just requires time and a bit of patience. This is a really rough first cut but I expect to be able to polish it up nicely.

292557

The blue line is after a couple of runs to improve the pickup.

I am starting to feel optimistic.

[fatbastd]

Going back a page - nice little TA125 in the Trademe ad...looks very straight. makes me keen to assemble mine - it's half-done and sitting in the back of the shed, thoiughy running it might be embarrassing these days -it'd be eaten by a modern bucket! No brakes, no tyres and an optimistic 24hp!

Last time I rode it I suspect I was the last person to gain National 125 points on a drum-brakes, air-cooled 5 speed bike!

[TZ350]

TA125 Beautiful bikes If only we knew then what we know now ......

[speedpro]

Probably make an OK bucket. You'd have to chuck a fair bit away of course.

[Frits Overmars]

turns out I am responsible for most of my problems with getting the EFI going. Not only has the port timing been way out with the Ex opening at 70 deg ATDC and Transfers 110, when they should have been Ex 80 and Trans 115. I had to go and stuff up the compression ratio too...Seems like you have used up your quotum of blunders for 2014. It should be downhill-going from now on.
:apint:

[jasonu]

Probably make an OK bucket. You'd have to chuck a fair bit away of course.

But that is not within the sprit of the rules...

Dunno if it is worth $8k but I would sure like to own it.

[TZ350]

Seems like you have used up your quotum of blunders for 2014. It should be downhill going from now on.
:apint:


Yes, feels like this part of the project will be straight forward now .....

[jasonu]

TA125 Beautiful bikes If only we knew then what we know now ......

Can someone post the tardme link to this auction. I am curious to see how much it goes for.
Cheers in advance.

[TZ350]

Can someone post the tardme link to this auction.

ta125 .......

292703


http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/classic-vintage/auction-686119218.htm

[twotempi]

I admire all the innovation and work that goes into 'buckets"

BUT ..................

Anyone who uses a TA125 as the basis for a bucket is a VANDAL"

Keep it original with its warts and other failings , and use it with the Classic club as a genuine 1972 GP bike in events for historic 125's with others of its kind.

[F5 Dave]

Ah c'mon. Who's going to spend that sort of coin for just a chassis that would be, well a bit 'period'? Could buy an NX4 and throw away the engine if you're spending the money like that. Knew someone who was storing an old TD250 in his workshop covered in fibreglass dust in the 90s. Worth zilch back then. Might even got left there when he didn't pay the rent.

[speedpro]

I admire all the innovation and work that goes into 'buckets"

BUT ..................

Anyone who uses a TA125 as the basis for a bucket is a VANDAL"

Keep it original with its warts and other failings , and use it with the Classic club as a genuine 1972 GP bike in events for historic 125's with others of its kind.


Two days . . . a bit disappointing

[TZ350]

Tonight's effort. The Beast is starting to snarl and it will pull away in top gear on the dyno from 3500rpm and WOT, try that with your carburetor.

292749

Red line is the best ever using a carb with this old cylinder and the Blue line is where I am at with fuel injection. In all fairness for a proper comparison it needs a proper head (the old head suited a dished piston) the original ignition map and chamber and a generator for the EFI. But I am pretty excited about the Ecotrons fuel injection system as its starting to be very easy to work with.

Anyway I am away for two weeks now so wont get another chance to make a head and fit a better chamber until early February. But I think this EFI business is going to work out OK.

[koba]

Blue line still smashes mine in the teeth, all the way though the range.

[koba]

Haven't had a chace to test yet, I hope like hell that it is concentric...

Oh, as a footnote; It wasn't. :crybaby:

[Flettner]

Tonight's effort. The Beast is starting to snarl and it will pull away in top gear on the dyno from 3500rpm and WOT, try that with your carburetor.

292749

Red line is the best ever using a carb with this old cylinder and the Blue line is where I am at with fuel injection. In all fairness for a proper comparison it needs a proper head (the old head suited a dished piston) the original ignition map and chamber and a generator for the EFI. But I am pretty excited about the Ecotrons fuel injection system as its starting to be very easy to work with.

Anyway I am away for two weeks now so wont get another chance to make a head and fit a better chamber until early February. But I think this EFI business is going to work out OK.

Well, good on you, maybe that Ecotrons unit is trust worthy after all! You won't want to piss with carburetors ever again after this.
There is a number of people who have contacted me about twostroke EFI ( wanting a kit ) and I've been putting them off untill we see how the Ecotrons works. The Link is too expensive for most applications. You may have a few kits to make up by the looks of it.

[TZ350]

Well, good on you, maybe that Ecotrons unit is trust worthy after all!

Yes, inexperience with EFI but mostly, trying to work with a dud motor (my fault) held me up for ages.


You won't want to piss with carburetors ever again after this.

I already think carburetors are old hat, and no fun at all.


There is a number of people who have contacted me about twostroke EFI ( wanting a kit ) and I've been putting them off untill we see how the Ecotrons works.

When I have got the map sorted and the engine running well, I will post the maps and essential details. They wont be perfect for other 2T's but it will be a much better starting point than I had to work from.

[wobbly]

You guys are forgetting that in the vast majority of situations there is nothing wrong at all with a well tuned carb.
If you had spent 1/2 the time nailing the tuning of your bucket TeeZee as you have spent trying to get your head around the injection, there would be nothing wrong with it either.
If you look at the dyno run of the RZ400 it pulls full throttle from 4,000 rpm and has a perfect A/F readout to redline.
In reality though, who cares, if you are under 8000 on the track with an engine that spins to 12,000 you should be in the pits playing with yourself - or at least playing with the jetting.
Bartol added an injector to the KTM to fix the only issue a carb cant address, 15,000 rpm with the slide closed on the overun.
He could have used the added complication of the injector hardware and software, all the time - it simply wasnt needed.
BUT, I must add,I spent most of my adult life wishing I could organise a complete programmable and affordable ignition, that took 20 years, now everyone has one.
If you can manage to achieve a programmable and affordable injection system that will fit onto anything, then you will have easily surpassed my dream.

[Flettner]

You guys are forgetting that in the vast majority of situations there is nothing wrong at all with a well tuned carb.
If you had spent 1/2 the time nailing the tuning of your bucket TeeZee as you have spent trying to get your head around the injection, there would be nothing wrong with it either.
If you look at the dyno run of the RZ400 it pulls full throttle from 4,000 rpm and has a perfect A/F readout to redline.
In reality though, who cares, if you are under 8000 on the track with an engine that spins to 12,000 you should be in the pits playing with yourself - or at least playing with the jetting.
Bartol added an injector to the KTM to fix the only issue a carb cant address, 15,000 rpm with the slide closed on the overun.
He could have used the added complication of the injector hardware and software, all the time - it simply wasnt needed.
BUT, I must add,I spent most of my adult life wishing I could organise a complete programmable and affordable ignition, that took 20 years, now everyone has one.
If you can manage to achieve a programmable and affordable injection system that will fit onto anything, then you will have easily surpassed my dream.

Fair enough Wobbly, perhaps it's just I'm a crap carb tuner. But the usefulness of EFI goes way past just squirting fuel in, the ECU can do so much more. Monitor and adjust many things on the fly, stuff I never thought possible. Good on TZ for unfolding the edge of the envelope.

[speedpro]

Good on TZ for unfolding the edge of the envelope.

Papercuts sting like hell though.

On a 4-stroke note I reckon I'm on the edge of sorting my 125 twin injection.

[Yow Ling]

This should make the porting easier. Wirecut rgv cylinder

292792

[TZ350]

If you had spent 1/2 the time nailing the tuning of your bucket TeeZee as you have spent trying to get your head around the injection, there would be nothing wrong with it either.

True, but then I would not have the shortest inlet tract possible and the tuning advantage that gives me.

[wax]

You guys are forgetting that in the vast majority of situations there is nothing wrong at all with a well tuned carb.
If you had spent 1/2 the time nailing the tuning of your bucket TeeZee as you have spent trying to get your head around the injection, there would be nothing wrong with it either.
If you look at the dyno run of the RZ400 it pulls full throttle from 4,000 rpm and has a perfect A/F readout to redline.
In reality though, who cares, if you are under 8000 on the track with an engine that spins to 12,000 you should be in the pits playing with yourself - or at least playing with the jetting.
Bartol added an injector to the KTM to fix the only issue a carb cant address, 15,000 rpm with the slide closed on the overun.
He could have used the added complication of the injector hardware and software, all the time - it simply wasnt needed.
BUT, I must add,I spent most of my adult life wishing I could organise a complete programmable and affordable ignition, that took 20 years, now everyone has one.
If you can manage to achieve a programmable and affordable injection system that will fit onto anything, then you will have easily surpassed my dream.
Is there a like button
A well set up carb is a good thing

[teriks]

<SNIP>
In all fairness for a proper comparison it needs a proper head (the old head suited a dished piston) the original ignition map and chamber and a generator for the EFI.
<SNIP>


True, but then I would not have the shortest inlet tract possible and the tuning advantage that gives me.
..and quite possibly reduced inlet timing to go with that shorter inlet tract, or increased crankcase volume or..
Good stuff!

[Frits Overmars]

Meanwhile in Italy: http://www.kartingconnect.com/fuel-injection-kz-engine-finally-well-prototype-now/

[TZ350]

Meanwhile in Italy: http://www.kartingconnect.com/fuel-injection-kz-engine-finally-well-prototype-now/


http://www.kartingconnect.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/IMG_1018c.jpg (http://www.kartingconnect.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/IMG_1018c.jpg)

KK1 by Modena Engine with indirect electronic injection.

In this prototype, the traditional carburetor has been changed for a butterfly type by Bing equipped with a single injector (also a double injector is currently being studied) controlled “by wire”, instead of the usual metallic cable. The manufacturer has tested several solutions regarding inner diameter including 38 mm, reaching top power of 55 bhp.



Well that did not take long for Flettners pioneering EFI work here in NZ to appear in Europe..... :laugh:



<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/ifSEql1X4R0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/eleqBGvOM4M" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/UEQli7nuak4" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/hOGZ5llowoU" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/1YG9ko8-Nwk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Flettner]

Ha Ha next we will see them working on a sleeve valve engine. ;)

[TZ350]

292907

Classic pre 63 Ariel Arrow Racers

292889292890292887292888

Arrow complete bottom end, wheels, engine parts and frame.

Someone who heard I had some Arrow parts and was interested in building a classic racing Ariel Arrow emailed me a story about his own efforts with an Arrow, and making it into a 500 4 was pretty cool too.


Hi TZ 350

I said I might say a little about my Ariel Arrow experiences way back in the dim past.

I actually had 3 of those machines, the first one had had a head on and was more or less a write off but I bought it out of curiosity after hearing of Hermann Meier's Arrow at the TT.

I then bought a Leader to convert to a racer, but ended up riding it around instead, quite frankly I knew nothing about tuning and so it remained a Leader.

In 1967 I bought an Arrow and this time, took the plunge, bigger carb, skimmed the heads, rebore and new pistons, chambers and all the things you did in those days to make them go faster! oh yes, and Castrol R, big mistake with two strokes, (gummed rings etc. etc.) but the Ariel never really got that far, the first blast down the road I holed the right hand piston! put it in the shed and then later bought a Suzuki T20 (as you did in those days) - bye bye Arrow!

In defense of the Arrow, it was a beautiful road bike and handled really well, probably because of it's very rigid pressed steel frame but you couldn't really throw it around much because of it's small wheels (might have been 16" - can't remember).
It was also exceedingly heavy for a 250. and to tell the truth it would take a prone rider and a stiff tailwind to make it crack 75 mph!

There was much to be done to make that thing a racer, with it's tiny pair of transfer ports (in each cylinder), the crowded big end rollers, bronze small end, heavy cast iron barrels, chain primary, 4 speed box with plain bearings, the layshaft had one sintered iron plain bearing - not even bronze! and this used to collapse.

Also pathetic drum brakes (for racing anyway). - but having said that, a good commuter bike and that is what it was designed for.
They said that it was a copy of the German Adler, possibly inspired by it and with some of it's features, but no copy.

It used to freak me out at night if, say, I did a slow U turn - the light didnt turn with the handlebars!

So I had a "souped up "Ariel Arrow" in the shed and a guy I worked with had another redundant Arrow "Racer".
He wanted to buy mine but we couldn't come to an agreement on price, so we eventually decided to co-operate and build a 500 special from the two bikes.

The pressed steel frame didn't lend itself well to fitting two motors, so I drew up a Norton Featherbed style frame in my spare time and built it at work (in work time and with work gear) much to the foreman's distress every time he caught me! (but they had all the benders, welding and brazing equipment etc. I needed).

I built it out of 17 gauge cold drawn tubing, 1" I think, (it was just a guess really!)
If I remember correctly we bought this tubing from HS White in Auckland. The front forks were triumph and maybe the wheels too.

We were originally going to join the two engines and make an inline 4 but finally decided to mount one above the other, so I welded up an adapter to join the two together in this fashion and do a '"square 4" as Suzuki had done, except that ours was to have a chain drive between the two.

To cut a long story short, we had a lot of trouble with the chain drive which needed an outrigger bearing on the end of each crank and then there was that constant need to reset the ignition timing (contact points) which kept going out of synch.
We took it out to the Kariotahi Beach Race and it looked promising till the timing went out yet again!

After the race we were having a bit of a lair up at the beach with a bonfire where I had a serious accident with a bottle of meths (and a bonfire) - two badly burned legs and that was it really, I spent 8 weeks recovering in Middlemore Hospital, then after I got out, I met my future wife and we got married.

She never did like bikes but tolerated them, however she lost all interest after I took her out to Puke - Cal Rayborn from USA who was on holiday here, came off a Suzuki 500 twin and was killed right in front of us, - that really finished my bikes for a while!

To get back to our 500, it did a couple of drag races, (didn't do too bad) and then got sold off to somene obscure who took one engine off and raced it at Puke, he said it handled not too bad.

The last I heard of it was when a guy knocked on my door one evening and said he would like to buy any Arrow spares I happened to have left and described the bike he had - it was my baby!

I rushed in and grabbed my drawings and showed them to him - but he wasn't at all interested and didn't believe me - said that it was built by a couple of guys he didn't know, and that was the dismal way it all ended (around 1971.)

[koba]

I said I might say a little about my Ariel Arrow experiences way back in the dim past...


I love reading about stuff like this!

Cheers for sharing.

[Kickaha]

Anyone for a Krauser?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yamaha-TZ500-Krauser-2-Stroke-Engine-Complete-/251429490239
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Yamaha-TZ500-Krauser-2-Stroke-Engine-Complete-/00/s/MTA2NlgxNjAw/z/R64AAOxyRhBS3DP6/$_12.JPG
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Yamaha-TZ500-Krauser-2-Stroke-Engine-Complete-/00/s/MTA2NlgxNjAw/z/4AoAAMXQVT9S3DSf/$_12.JPG

[TZ350]

Of course, if you have half a dozen Arrow engines lying about you could make yourself a 2T two stroke powered F1 Lotus.

[speedpro]

I can't remember the name of the guy but I met him at Norjo's a long time ago. He had an arrow, which he hated, but his wife wouldn't let him buy a new bike because the old one still went. Obviously the old one needed to break. So, he lockwired the throttle on full, started it and went inside for a cuppa. He reckoned he had to go outside 15 miutes later and turn it off as the neighbours came over complaining about the noise. Owen Galbraith??, can't remember, but that name springs to mind.

[Grumph]

I can't remember the name of the guy but I met him at Norjo's a long time ago. He had an arrow, which he hated, but his wife wouldn't let him buy a new bike because the old one still went. Obviously the old one needed to break. So, he lockwired the throttle on full, started it and went inside for a cuppa. He reckoned he had to go outside 15 miutes later and turn it off as the neighbours came over complaining about the noise. Owen Galbraith??, can't remember, but that name springs to mind.

Not Owen - his name would have been familiar as a racer of an Arrow back in the day. He moved on to various Kawasaki's incl a 750/3.
His Arrow experience came in useful there - I remember going around the outside of the Arrow on the sweeper at ruapuna and all you could see of him was one leg and an arm. Ground clearance was so poor he would hang right off it. The 750 kwaka was similar with no clearance....

[RomeuPT]

Hey folks. I had kept updated of this topic all the time and I have a question...

Been looking for some steel with some anti-rust capacity to try with motocross pipes.

Been searching arround in local stores and internet. And I think corten steel is a very good option. Also looking for 0,8mm corten to try hidroformed.

Does somebody here have used it to make pipes, I wonder if the copper makes a pipe cooler and if is easy to roll and tig weld.

Many Thanks

Romeu

[mr bucketracer]

Hey folks. I had kept updated of this topic all the time and I have a question...

Been looking for some steel with some anti-rust capacity to try with motocross pipes.

Been searching arround in local stores and internet. And I think corten steel is a very good option. Also looking for 0,8mm corten to try hidroformed.

Does somebody here have used it to make pipes, I wonder if the copper makes a pipe cooler and if is easy to roll and tig weld.

Many Thanks

Romeui use deep drawing .8 to 1mm steel , think corten is as tough as old boots and would not work , i would look into some kind of paint

[senso]

And why not the good old 306 or 316 stainless?

[2T Institute]

Meanwhile in Italy: http://www.kartingconnect.com/fuel-injection-kz-engine-finally-well-prototype-now/

My spies sent me this as well, email was titled "from web forums to serious competition" :msn-wink:

[Frits Overmars]

My spies sent me this as well, email was titled "from web forums to serious competition" :msn-wink:hinged reeds, yummy! I must say they look better than my 24/7-prototype of 20-odd years ago. Please tell me more.

[RomeuPT]

And why not the good old 306 or 316 stainless?

Stainless is kind a nightmare to make properly... And probably impossible to hidroform...

Steel-Chromium maybe works....

[Yow Ling]

search Wobbly posts, he uses .8 mild steel (hot rolled maybe) given that he knows his shit about pipes , I would just copy him
1mm costs power, ceramic coating costs power, ss needs to be longer.

[Flettner]

My spies sent me this as well, email was titled "from web forums to serious competition" :msn-wink:

Thought it might be the FOS in action?

[F5 Dave]

search Wobbly posts, he uses .8 mild steel (hot rolled maybe) given that he knows his shit about pipes , I would just copy him
1mm costs power, ceramic coating costs power, ss needs to be longer.
You can often find scrap chromated sheet that will deter rust (except where you weld). Don't use it, it will crack regularly. Don't ask how I know.

[Ocean1]

And why not the good old 306 or 316 stainless?

316 in high frequency load applications work hardens quickly around stress risers, (joints), causing cracks.

Cold drawn 1.5mm 304 is used for automotive exhaust work, but for a chamber I suspect you'd have the same problems as with 316, a little less quickly maybe but I wouldn't bother.

Corten is stiffer, so you could theoretically use a thinner section, but that stiffness also tends to focus harmonic distortion at the joints, again promoting cracking.

Mild steel might have been around for a while, but there's plenty of applications where it's still a more than effective choice of material.

[koba]

Unpainted 0.8 Mild steel also lasts a long time if it's in a race situation, if the bike isn't left in the rain between rounds and gets a bit of oil on it from time to time.

I'd expected to chop and change a bit but it hasn't happened yet.

[Frits Overmars]

1mm costs power, ceramic coating costs power, ss needs to be longer.Ceramic coating shouldn't cost power; on the contrary. You'd just have to adjust the lengths, like you have to with stainless steel and titanium.
This graph shows the results of three pipes with identical dimensions but different materials on the same engine.
293077


Stainless is kind a nightmare to make properly... Then try this, Romeu. That should keep you out of the boozer for a couple of evenings :msn-wink:.
293078

[senso]

It is not a nightmare with the right tools..
I have seen a friend of mine roll 17-18 cones in 316 stainless in 20 minutes, ready to tack, test fit and weld, in a normal day, a pipe takes 2 hours from plate to pipe..

[F5 Dave]

Ceramic coating shouldn't cost power; on the contrary. You'd just have to adjust the lengths, like you have to with stainless steel and titanium.
This graph shows the results of three pipes with identical dimensions but different materials on the same engine.


Then try this, Romeu. That should keep you out of the boozer for a couple of evenings :msn-wink:.

So what of the insulation properties on the header? Is that not why wrapping became unpopular in that area? My own pipes that have been ceramic costed changed considerably in peak revs for 250 size bore but much less on a 50cc. I now avoid doing it.

[Frits Overmars]

So what of the insulation properties on the header? Is that not why wrapping became unpopular in that area? My own pipes that have been ceramic costed changed considerably in peak revs for 250 size bore but much less on a 50cc. I now avoid doing it.The first part of the exhaust duct, where washed-through fresh mixture waits to be shoved back into the cylinder, should be as cold as possible. The rest of the pipe can be isolated without any ill effects, provided the pipe dimensions are adapted to the increased heat retention.

[koba]

The first part of the exhaust duct, where washed-through fresh mixture waits to be shoved back into the cylinder, should be as cold as possible. The rest of the pipe can be isolated without any ill effects, provided the pipe dimensions are adapted to the increased heat retention.

How far down would that be?

Would it be worth some extra cooling effort here perhaps, such as finning or even water cooling?

[jasonu]

, in a normal day, a pipe takes 2 hours from plate to pipe..

Maybe in a mass production situation.

[senso]

The flange is already made(usually he makes 10 a time, to save on setup time in the lathe), the sheet is laser cut, had a custom made cone roller, and presto.

[TZ350]

The first part of the exhaust duct, where washed-through fresh mixture waits to be shoved back into the cylinder, should be as cold as possible. The rest of the pipe can be insulated without any ill effects, provided the pipe dimensions are adapted to the increased heat retention.How far down would that be? Would it be worth some extra cooling effort here perhaps, such as finning or even water cooling?

I am very interested in this too....

293082293083293084

At first look, it looks sensible to have a short exhaust tract to cut down on heat soak into the (air) cooling system, but this may not be the best. A longer tract or better yet a finned cooling muff around the top part of the pipe.

I would be interested in any thoughts on this.

[TZ350]

293091

While she in doors has been doing some heavy duty shopping I found my way to https://www.treatland.tv

293094

Here in San Francisco the guys at Treatland supply all sorts of parts to the world for building up street or performance/race Mopeds. They modify and race their own bikes.

Benji made me feel welcome and showed me around.

I have brought parts, mostly carbs from here before, they can send stuff anywhere around the world.

293092

https://www.treatland.tv/SearchResults.asp?Search=cdi

Its worth having a look at their stock, the ignitions are pretty interesting, very small size and as well as CDI they can have a generator coil too. Carbs and performance cylinders are pretty attractive to. Any of this stuff they can send to NZ no problem, my experience is it takes 7-10 business days for delivery to your door.

293093

A couple of the guys own race bikes that they have modified themselves.

293095

This one has a European frame, Honda engine and an Italian cylinder/head kit, hmmm I think I remembered that right. Interesting ignition.

293096

And old base engines. If I lived here I would be right into one of these neat little bikes.

[Frits Overmars]

The first part of the exhaust duct, where washed-through fresh mixture waits to be shoved back into the cylinder, should be as cold as possible. The rest of the pipe can be isolated without any ill effects, provided the pipe dimensions are adapted to the increased heat retention.
How far down would that be? Would it be worth some extra cooling effort here perhaps, such as finning or even water cooling? Keeping the exhaust duct in the cylinder as short as possible to prevent the spent gases from heating up the cylinder too much was once considered good practice, and for aircooled cylinders it may still be the case; I can't say because I have no recent experience with aircooled competition engines. But for watercooled cylinders it is definitely worth cooling the first part of the exhaust duct as much as you can.
The length of this first part should be such that it can contain a volume equal to one cylinder capacity. Obviously the smaller the local duct diameter, the larger this length needs to be.
I already stressed the importance of a small duct diameter before. Here is another reason: the duct's cross area is where fresh charge and spent gases mix. Keeping this area small lessens this undesirable mixing.

[RomeuPT]

Ceramic coating shouldn't cost power; on the contrary. You'd just have to adjust the lengths, like you have to with stainless steel and titanium.
This graph shows the results of three pipes with identical dimensions but different materials on the same engine.
293077

Then try this, Romeu. That should keep you out of the boozer for a couple of evenings :msn-wink:.
293078

I already did a pipe for a CR 500, a total of 40 pieces of mild steel, tired of working with cones.

Making a 14 cones pipe in 304 stainless was the maximum until now, and it takes the whole day...... if everthing runs fine!!!293108



It is not a nightmare with the right tools..
I have seen a friend of mine roll 17-18 cones in 316 stainless in 20 minutes, ready to tack, test fit and weld, in a normal day, a pipe takes 2 hours from plate to pipe..

roll is a thing, tack and weld in a proper way is another...

[RomeuPT]

From the observation of the exhaust graph seems that ti and stainless increase peak rpm by ~4%....

And in this topic is a post talking about 8% longer for stainless and Ti, I have been making them in between so I don't get very wrong...

[TZ350]

How to view all the images.

293109

Go to Thread Tools at the top of the page and View Thread Images.

293112

Now roll to the bottom of the page.

293110

Here you can sort them from the beginning.

293111

70 to a page, there are 6,000+ images

293113

If you find something interesting just click on the images title and it will take you to the original post.

[2T Institute]

hinged reeds, yummy! I must say they look better than my 24/7-prototype of 20-odd years ago. Please tell me more.

Just got a email from a Friend who went to the same trade show, they obviously been reading Pit Lane:laugh:

[Yow Ling]

Started porting a new cylinder tonight, its way easier if the sleeve isnt fitted yet, can use the flip top barrel to see the angles better.
the dark area on the sleeve is the acid etched bit showing the stock porting of the rgv250 cylinder. This sleeve is just roughed out with the milling machine


293128

293129

[TZ350]

The sleeve is very interesting, an alloy one like it will be where I go if the air cooled RGV250 cylinder idea does not work out.

The plan will be to make a 100cc alloy sleeve that is copper metal sprayed 1-2 mm on the outside for good heat conduction away from the exhaust port area to the much larger surface area of the sleeve proper for contact conduction to the original RGV cylinder block.

Also the RGV block would be bored for a slip fit on the sleeve. Retention and conduction contact would rely on the sleeve being hotter than the block and the thermal expansion making a tight fit between the alloy sleeve and block.

Copper coating might have application to the Iron sleeve too.

[Yow Ling]

This sleeve is a 0.004" shrink fit, I don't think I would be keen on relying on the expansion of the sleeve to hold it in place. Nasa might be , they do pretty edgy stuff

[Frits Overmars]

....the RGV block would be bored for a slip fit on the sleeve. Retention and conduction contact would rely on the sleeve being hotter than the block and the thermal expansion making a tight fit between the alloy sleeve and block.Don't go there. This is obsolete practice for cold-running methanol model engines, and even there pistons collapse because they can't get rid of their heat, once the engine starts to develop anything like decent power. Furthermore, beginning around the exhaust port, oil will creep between cylinder and sleeve (it does that even with shrunk-in sleeves). That oil will then char and muck up what was left of heat transfer.
If you must use a sleeve, apply a conical fit like Jan Thiel did in his last sleeved cylinders (about a century ago). He used a morse cone angle and could fit and disassemble the sleeve as often as he liked, with just a slight press fit for the last millimeter of depth.

[TZ350]

If you must use a sleeve, apply a conical fit like Jan Thiel did in his last sleeved cylinders (about a century ago). He used a morse cone angle and could fit and disassemble the sleeve as often as he liked, with just a slight press fit for the last millimeter of depth.

Great idea, Thanks.

[Flettner]

Who would use a sleeve;)

[Yow Ling]

Who would use a sleeve;)

Im working on that !

[TZ350]

293381

Another Smoky start for Av.

We have been running Av's bike up on the dyno after a rebuild.

293380

And it smoked worse than ever, eventually traced the problem to the Loctite number 2 gasket sealant we had used on the cases.

Good for everything fuel, oil etc it says, but as it turns out, hot auto trans dissolves it.

[F5 Dave]

3bond for cases. Loctite like that is awesome everywhere else.

[goose8]

293381

Another Smoky start for Av.

We have been running Av's bike up on the dyno after a rebuild.

293380

And it smoked worse than ever, eventually traced the problem to the Loctite number 2 gasket sealant we had used on the cases.

Good for everything fuel, oil etc it says, but as it turns out, hot auto trans dissolves it.

I hope you have detuned it ?

[TZ350]

293384

Yep, the oil dissolved the sealant all right.


3bond for cases.

Please tell me more, and where do I get it.

[TZ350]

I hope you have detuned it ?

Yep ..... Scouts Honer..... :msn-wink:

[TZ350]

293386293385293387

Fitted this flywheel/stator/rectifier charging circuit for an Ignitec push and go ignition system.

Ran OK for a few minutes then the voltage dropped to 5-6V. Left it for a bit and the voltage was 14.5V when we started again, a few minutes later 5-6V.

So I checked the AC voltage before the regulator and found 2-3V AC. And an open circuit AC voltage of 100-300V depending on rpm. My guess is I have a CDI high voltage stator and the voltage regulator could cope until it got hot and then shunted everything to ground. But would work again briefly when it had cooled off. I need a lower voltage generator stator.

[TZ350]

Page 910 ...

[TZ350]

293390

A few speed secrets from inside Av's F4 engine. Double row self aligning main brgs, left hand main brg is a slip fit on the shaft, RD125 rod, double ring TS125 Weisco piston with 1mm rings and champhered flywheel rim on the inlet side.

[Henk]

Northerns do three bond so any bike shop should be able to help.

[Muciek]

http://www.victorreinz.com/EN/Products/Sealing-compounds/REINZOSIL-and-REINZOPLAST.aspx This one is very good, it should be available in your country :)

[TZ350]

Thanks .... Gigglebutton saved the day with a half tube he had at work and I am off around the bike shops this morning to get some more supplies while Chambers prepares the engine for re assembly and a buzz up on the dyno this afternoon.

Chambers has put a lot of work into Av's F4 bike and she is real keen to ride this weekend if she can.

293405

http://www.brm.co.nz/articles/av-in-european-moto3.html

293406

Hopefully we will get to see a bit of this sort of action at Mt Welly Sunday.

[F5 Dave]

Any decent bikes shop will carry it. If they don't, Smash their glass counter top with your bare hands, and shake you glass shard encrusted fist at them, call them Nancy boys and scream that you won't follow their evil ways and don't subscribe to Soichiro Honda's apoplectic Final Solution of a 4 stroke world.

[F5 Dave]

293386293385293387

Fitted this flywheel/stator/rectifier charging circuit for an Ignitec push and go ignition system.

Ran OK for a few minutes then the voltage dropped to 5-6V. Left it for a bit and the voltage was 14.5V when we started again, a few minutes later 5-6V.

So I checked the AC voltage before the regulator and found 2-3V AC. And an open circuit AC voltage of 100-300V depending on rpm. My guess is I have a CDI high voltage stator and the voltage regulator could cope until it got hot and then shunted everything to ground. But would work again briefly when it had cooled off. I need a lower voltage generator stator.that looks like Cr125/250 stuff. Rewind alternator coil I suspect. Measure resistance, then heat up above 60 and should change 15% but no more.

[wobbly]

The other issue is that you havnt lifted the trigger from ground.
See the green wire screwed to the stator, this is connected to the green trigger wire.
The blue trigger wire is sensor ground, the green ( with earth disconnected ) is trigger +.
Early CR125 rotor and stators cant supply enough current to run an Ignitech.
The early stator run with a late model rotor that has super magnets will do it, and visa versa as the later stators have much thicker winding wire for more current/less voltage.
You can spot the super magnets as the rotor wil go "clunk, clunk " as you rotate it slowly, the old magnets do virtually nothing.

[F5 Dave]

Pretty good eyesight there Wob.

interesting to know re changes. That is an older flywheel as the newer ones have beveled edge and not clearly separate top hat inner.

[TZ350]

OK .... thanks, it looks like we need to re wind the stator then.

[wobbly]

Get em for a hundy from Ricky.

[goose8]

OK .... thanks, it looks like we need to re wind the stator then.

Will it ready for tomorrow ? Going to be a nice day ?

[Flettner]

The other issue is that you havnt lifted the trigger from ground.
See the green wire screwed to the stator, this is connected to the green trigger wire.
The blue trigger wire is sensor ground, the green ( with earth disconnected ) is trigger +.
Early CR125 rotor and stators cant supply enough current to run an Ignitech.
The early stator run with a late model rotor that has super magnets will do it, and visa versa as the later stators have much thicker winding wire for more current/less voltage.
You can spot the super magnets as the rotor wil go "clunk, clunk " as you rotate it slowly, the old magnets do virtually nothing.

Wobbly, this is one of the high powered one I got from you.

[F5 Dave]

Heaps of aftermarket on eBay. 50w upgrade too
Yeah Ricky stator rings a bell. My std 40W runs igni, water pump and a few other things and never drops in voltage in all gears run.

[TZ350]

Ricky and 50W after market sounds good but I am unsure of exactly what I have so if anyone can positively identify it or better yet post a link to the item I need on Ebay or Rickys I would be very grateful.

http://www.rickystator.com/catalog/honda-m-10.html?page=2&sort=2a

OK found Rickys, but still need to know exactly what I have.

[TZ350]

Also . . . I managed a few laps on the FZR 125/2 today. It actually wasn't too bad. As I knew from dyno runs it won't rev out as the small injectors just don't have time to inject the fuel over 15K rpm. Plus it's way over geared and I only used 1st & 2nd. If I could run it out to 18K I'd only need 1st. I had the turbo inlet plenum manifold fitted to reduce the risk of something going down the intake and it didn't seem to adversely effect it on the dyno and no problems on the track. The throttle is a pain needing over 1/2 turn for full throttle. The engine is pretty weak but runs sweet with only a little burble here and there. On and off the throttle it behaved very well with no stuttering or hesitating. I'm very happy with how it ran and am even more convinced now that fuel injection is the way ahead.

A big Hats off to Speedpro, the first (that I know of) home brew electronic fuel injected EFI Bucket that has made it to the track. Now to get a 2T one out there.

[F5 Dave]

Ricky and 50W after market sounds good but I am unsure of exactly what I have so if anyone can positively identify it or better yet post a link to the item I need on Ebay or Rickys I would be very grateful.

http://www.rickystator.com/catalog/honda-m-10.html?page=2&sort=2a

OK found Rickys, but still need to know exactly what I have.
Some better pics but check ebay for genuine cr 125 or 250 comparisons

[wobbly]

The 8 pole high output stator winding from Ricky is part No Rsc98ho.

[F5 Dave]

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTA3WDkwMA==/z/INcAAOxy3NBSgxdp/$_58.JPG

this is flywheel I mean. Tablet makes it hard to paste but 02 onwards. Listed for way too much but they come up. 125 also ok for some year but 4 pole on some year like 04 I think so guess flywheel will have different magnets, not sure.

your reg rec/capacitor looks cr but nx4 is same.

[TZ350]

Thanks Guys.

[TZ350]

Mt Welly today. sadly there was no 2T for Av but Michelle lent her, her F5 Honda 100 powered FXR and Av had a great day taking wins in B grade against the 150's and then taking a group of riders out for a tour of the track and showing them the fast lines.

Goose8 totally dominated F4 A with Speedpros MB100 2T and then Kel turned up and took a win or two on his air cooled Kawasaki 2T. Hopefully they both make it to the GP at Tokoroa.

[koba]

Mt Welly today. sadly there was no 2T for Av but Michelle lent her, her F5 Honda 100 powered FXR and Av had a great day taking wins in B grade against the 150's and then taking a group of riders out for a tour of the track and showing them the fast lines.

Goose8 totally dominated F4 A with Speedpros MB100 2T and then Kel turned up and took a win or two on his air cooled Kawasaki 2T. Hopefully they both make it to the GP at Tokoroa.

I'm hoping for rain with all this horsepower lined up!

[WilDun]

I actually called in to the Mt Wellington track today and met some of the guys I've been talking to on the forum, namely Henk, Rob and "Speedpro" - forgot take note of his name!
Nice to meet you guys, it would have been nice to have had a ride on one of the bikes, but as you can appreciate now, it would be an absolute 'No No' for me to even consider it never mind attempt it - them's the breaks!
I'll continue to learn more about this Bucket stuff by asking some damn fool questions and making some damn fool suggestions and also try to stop thinking that I know some stuff which you guys have not already considered! :msn-wink:

Hopefully I'll actually be able to consider contributing something to the construction of these machines in the future, at the moment it's all talk, but I'm making some effort and as they say, "it's better to have tried and failed than never to have tried".

Cheers
Will.

[TZ350]

It was great to meet you today Will

[WilDun]

It was great to meet you today Will

Thanks Rob, - same here.

[jasonu]

and "Speedpro" - forgot take note of his name!


Cheers
Will.

Yeah Green is a little forgettable:yes:

[TZ350]

I'm hoping for rain with all this horsepower lined up!

Air Cooleds love rain.

[F5 Dave]

Hmm, I feel a protest coming on. Might have to make you all shroud your engines from the spray lest you contravene the Liquid cooling part:nya:

[koba]

Air Cooleds love rain.

Yeah they do!

[2T Institute]

http://www.superstart.com.au/tabid/95/vid/4/Products/MotorcycleBatteries.aspx

Save yourself the drama of a charging system and run total loss with a Lithium battery. Box it comes in is heavier than the battery, get an hours run time on a TZ 350 with 2 coils, take 5 mins to charge(no special charger needed) and they send them in the post , $90 with a 2 yr replacement warranty

[koba]

Sounds too good to be true...

[Yow Ling]

http://www.superstart.com.au/tabid/95/vid/4/Products/MotorcycleBatteries.aspx

Save yourself the drama of a charging system and run total loss with a Lithium battery. Box it comes in is heavier than the battery, get an hours run time on a TZ 350 with 2 coils, take 5 mins to charge(no special charger needed) and they send them in the post , $90 with a 2 yr replacement warranty

So they like Shorai without all the religion attached.

As Speed pro pointed out the other day soon we will just get the battery a few FETs and a not petrol motor

[wobbly]

What Lithium Ion size/rating battery do you use to get an hour run time on a twin Lozza ?

[Drew]

What Lithium Ion size/rating battery do you use to get an hour run time on a twin Lozza ?Was gonna ask the same thing. Must be a tiny little bugger.

The Shorai in our ZX12r sidecar lasts longer than that...including starting the thing!

[2T Institute]

I think they are better than the Shorai but probably very similar. There isn't any A/h rating Wob just a CCA we normaly use 90CCA that's what the gezzer who runs the company recommended, been sweet so far. Really notice the difference with electric starters the engine just bursts into life. Can be mounted in any orientation and light enough not to upset handling.. There is only 1 'must do' that is store the battery full of charge, it holds a charge for 2 yrs. They don't 'go flat' they just give a miss then a cough then stop. Biggest they sell if for a top fueler 16v and 1600CCA:lol:

[speedpro]

I'm pretty sure I saw one of these years ago used to start a blown methanol dragster. It was only about 6" square and cranked it right up. Very impressive.

The thing with the dimensions too is that it is just standard lead acid size packaging, on the Shorai ones I've looked at anyway. The actual battery is more like a couple of "D" cells.

They don't handle being over-discharged nor being over-charged but the electronics included in the pack takes care of that. As stated, their minimum charge times are amazingly quick, measured in minutes not hours.

[TZ350]

http://www.superstart.com.au/tabid/95/vid/4/Products/MotorcycleBatteries.aspx

Save yourself the drama of a charging system and run total loss with a Lithium battery. Box it comes in is heavier than the battery, get an hours run time on a TZ 350 with 2 coils, take 5 mins to charge(no special charger needed) and they send them in the post , $90 with a 2 yr replacement warranty

http://www.superstart.com.au/tabid/95/vid/4/Products/MotorcycleBatteries.aspx

Thanks for the pointer and just double checking, is that the third battery down the page that your talking about?

[TerraRoot]

The detail you need after cutting thorough the marketing guff, is LiPo battery with BMS.
lithium-ion polymer with a battery management system. get that and your sorted. you could run a better fuel pump.

you can build yer own out of RC hobby batteries, with something like BMSafe, but i'd just buy one of the above, the explosions are pretty impressive if you get it wrong.

[2T Institute]

http://www.superstart.com.au/tabid/95/vid/4/Products/MotorcycleBatteries.aspx

Thanks for the pointer and just double checking, is that the third battery down the page that your talking about?

Second the Lithium series


http://www.superstart.com.au/tabid/108/bid/15/Products/MotorcycleBattery/SSBPowerSportLithium.aspx

[Pumba]

Anyone got any ideas if they can be bought here? The last indication on RRP I had for the smallest Shori was double that figure. Wouldnt mind one for the sidecar.

[2T Institute]

Should be able to be shipped via Aust Post that's how I get them

[TZ350]

Second the Lithium series http://www.superstart.com.au/tabid/108/bid/15/Products/MotorcycleBattery/SSBPowerSportLithium.aspx

Thanks ........

[Forgi]

Hi Wob!

As I can see, you are interested in gokart engines as well, so I'd like to ask if you don't mind!

Do cylinders with 3 transfer ports exist in categories KZ1-2 and KF1-2-3?
According to homologation drafts there is a type of cylinder which has 3 transfer ports. I haven't seen such cylinders since the categories ICA and FA have been disappeared.
Neither the old ICC engines had 3 transfer ports, nor the homologation drafts contained such things, but now they come up in KZ category.
It is a little bit funny a 125cc gears engine with 3 transfer ports, isn't it?

Do you have any kind of experience about these engines? What are these engines like? What are their characteristics?

Thanks!

[wobbly]

No I havnt seen any 3 port designs for the gear class karts at all.
What is the homologation number where you have seen this.
Very surprising if someone has done a 3 port, but as it stands the Italian kart factories are still well behind in detail areas
that were so successful in the Thiel inspired Aprilia cylinders with 5 ports.
Makes it easy for me to build engines that are faster than anything TecSav can come up with.

[WilDun]

that were so successful in the Thiel inspired Aprilia cylinders.


WOBBLY,
I'm assuming that the man you are talking about here is Jan Thiel - Is he the same guy from Holland who built the successful Jamathi 50cc racers in the late sixties and maybe early seventies?

Will.

[wobbly]

Yep, he is the MAN.

[F5 Dave]

Last night I encountered the most inconsistent bike I've run on the dyno; my GasGas EC300 (with road tyre fitted of course).

What I thought was going to be a simple find the right mainjet ballpark 1/2 dozen runs turned into a fiasco of chasing down why it wasn't revving out (which I never really found a smoking gun but it does now).

During all this I found that I could greatly influence the run by where it started. There was a dirty great hole between 5-6000. If I started the run say at 4000 it would have to pull through this & would have a suppressed run until it almost cleared - but still with a lower peak figure and a steeper curve than if I run it from 6000.

Not sure if the dip is due to PV opening too early, or if that's a mechanical governor type thing that wouldn't be such a problem on the dirt where it may spin up quicker than on a 600lb roller.

Ever run stuff this inconsistent?

I usually run 3 runs with every change & on most bikes find I need to disregard the first pass for it to clear out. This became all over the place sometimes. Don't think it was entirely a temp related thing. Tried a few mainjets but didn't affect things too much.

[speedpro]

Trade it in on a CRF Dave, Honda, 4 stroke, nothing but goodness.

[F5 Dave]

Nah man. No point in riding a fart fart dirt bike. This has low end stomp and rips when you ask it to + sounds gorgeous. And it's lighter and starts on the side of a slippery hill with a simple prod on the lever. Love this bike.

[wobbly]

Sounds more like the PV isnt opening at all untill its too late.
If the blade is jamming, the force from the mechanical ball/ramp type governor may eventually be able overcome the problem at high rpm.

[TZ350]

During all this I found that I could greatly influence the run by where it started. There was a dirty great hole between 5-6000. If I started the run say at 4000 it would have to pull through this & would have a suppressed run until it almost cleared - but still with a lower peak figure and a steeper curve than if I run it from 6000.

Ever run stuff this inconsistent?

Yes, and I feel your pain.

My experience with our GP125 bikes (single exhaust port, no PV) I found it depended on how cleanly they pulled through the power dip before coming onto the pipe. Anything that struggled there then had a bad run compared to starting the run cleanly above the dip. I put it down to wet fuel loading up the engine and it taking time to clear.

Both carburation settings and/or chamber design seemed to do it. An aggressive pipe seemed to be worse and required more care with getting the fueling curve right. Which makes sense when you see the power dip as the negative effect of the pipe resonance working against the engine before rpm increases to where the pipe resonance starts to help the engine make power.

Maybe its that three times past the main jet thing again. As we often had to look at the complete fueling curve, the bad engines often ran rich in the dip. Some engines liked a power jet others did not and changing the main jet plus air correction and sometimes the needle jet nozzle height to get the curve right as it passed through the dip on WOT was required.

Wob makes a good point about the PV possibly being stuck.

[richban]

Hi Guys

I have a question. What is the best position for the plug in these Heads? I know that Wob mentioned 6mm from piston with a Toroidal style but what about these jobs. tip of electrode protruding a couple of mm? Is there are hard and fast rule.

Cheers Much RB

293975

[F5 Dave]

I took the top cover off to observe the PC. It seemed to operate pretty easily and pretty much full as soon as I blipped the throttle with any zing. Might be worth pulling it just to be sure.

[wobbly]

A toroidal shape or the flat roof bathtub as used by Aprilia both have very steep sides up and away from the chamber/squish band sharp edge.
This is in part because they have to, to get the cc volume correct,but also to create more turbulence from the squish action.
Pulling the end face of the earth electrode down into the middle of the burn space, close to the piston, also means that the initial ionised kernel from the spark is directly in line
with that part of the gas being consumed that has the greatest turbulence, thus it will burn the fastest - increasing deto resistance.
The chamber shape you have there does none of those things - ie old fashioned rubbish, start again.

[richban]

A toroidal shape or the flat roof bathtub as used by Aprilia both have very steep sides up and away from the chamber/squish band sharp edge.
This is in part because they have to, to get the cc volume correct,but also to create more turbulence from the squish action.
Pulling the end face of the earth electrode down into the middle of the burn space, close to the piston, also means that the initial ionised kernel from the spark is directly in line
with that part of the gas being consumed that has the greatest turbulence, thus it will burn the fastest - increasing deto resistance.
The chamber shape you have there does none of those things - ie old fashioned rubbish, start again.

Stink one. The sides are way steaper than the original VHM design. The corner radious will need to be like 10mm. I will try it and make more.

[husaberg]

Frits posted a pic of the Aprilia Cylinder head. A detailed drawing if memory serves me correct:msn-wink:


This kept me thinking for a while. Maybe it is a misunderstanding stemming from the way you define a toroid. The decisive factor is that the radius of the combustion dome originates off-centre; its center is offset from the cylinder center line. That may or may not lead to the spark plug intruding into the combustion chamber, depending on the radius, the offset and the plug thread diameter.

The first two pictures show the Aprilia combustion chamber with a flush plug. The third picture shows a Wobbly-head with a deeply-intruding plug. The last picture shows the turbulence in a toroid head, initially caused by the transfer streams and enhanced by the squish action.
The intruding plug seemed a logical step but tests at Aprilia have shown that an intruding plug costs power, probably because it causes a scavenging shadow where spent gases are not fully removed by the incoming fresh mixture, so Aprilia-chambers have a flat area around the plug hole.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=258058&d=1329656811

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=258059&d=1329656824

wobbly head
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=258060&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1329656583

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=258063&d=1329658303

[richban]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=258063&d=1329658303


The actual shape is very close to this. The pic's are not doing it justice me thinks. It sure is a balance act to try create a head that gives you what you want.

[richban]

How I have been working this out.

293983

[wobbly]

The important things to see from the above is that the Aprilia drawing shows a VERY flat bathtub and was found to be the best design for a domed piston.
The Toroid became into being as an adaption of the bathtub and proved to be the best design for a flat top piston from a huge amount of testing I did for
a Belgian company making Honda after-market cylinders.
Both are trying to get the spark gap down very close to the piston.

[wobbly]

The theoretical MSV of 38M/Sec you are achieving will work OK, but for only 12200 rpm with 54.5 stroke the squish gap should be down at 0.6mm.
0.65 is useable in a normal 125 spinning to 14000 all day, but your piston is obviously heavyer.
The limiting factor should be that at the peak rpm used, the piston should be just shy of clipping the head.
Thus for the best squish action we end up with virtually zero clearance, so in effect the theoretical MSV becomes irrelevant.

[richban]

The important things to see from the above is that the Aprilia drawing shows a VERY flat bathtub and was found to be the best design for a domed piston.
The Toroid became into being as an adaption of the bathtub and proved to be the best design for a flat top piston from a huge amount of testing I did for
a Belgian company making Honda after-market cylinders.
Both are trying to get the spark gap down very close to the piston.

Ah, good to have some background on the 2 shapes. Ta.

With the crank I have I had to build some safety into the equation. Its always a pain to build an engine that has second hand bits. It should be going very soon. Like tomorrow if I get my shit together. Still need proper pipes. Hint hint.

[mr bucketracer]

Ah, good to have some background on the 2 shapes. Ta.

With the crank I have I had to build some safety into the equation. Its always a pain to build an engine that has second hand bits. It should be going very soon. Like tomorrow if I get my shit together. Still need proper pipes. Hint hint.good stuff rich , heap it reliable and you will win race's

[speedpro]

Interesting link

https://www.google.com/search?q=2+stroke+exhaust+port+nozzles&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=llMIU4OsBoOBkQX4o4CAAg&ved=0CF0QsAQ&biw=1432&bih=931#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=GKZtPfqU1BFaHM%253A%3Bn2eWglk_P-xuNM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.freepatentsonline.co m%252F6691649-0-large.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.freepatentsonli ne.com%252F6691649.html%3B2770%3B3986

[dmcca]

Last night I encountered the most inconsistent bike I've run on the dyno; my GasGas EC300 (with road tyre fitted of course)
......
.

What year GG300? I've dynoed a couple and they definitely have a dip when the PV opens (too early and too fast) but they werent as bad as you described so I think you're right to look for something playing up or not working right. I've seen a few with very sloppy powervalves

[richban]

good stuff rich , heap it reliable and you will win race's

Well the first step of reliable will be a trip to your house for some tuning me thinks. From what I have seen of the 2 strokes that have going through the shed I would be silly not to. :yes:

[Forgi]

No I havnt seen any 3 port designs for the gear class karts at all.
What is the homologation number where you have seen this.
Very surprising if someone has done a 3 port, but as it stands the Italian kart factories are still well behind in detail areas
that were so successful in the Thiel inspired Aprilia cylinders with 5 ports.
Makes it easy for me to build engines that are faster than anything TecSav can come up with.


Well, maybe I'm wrong Wob! I can't find that homologation form. It was a BMB engine, I saw a outline of it in the form,but of course it was a pic of the version with 5 tranfer ports. But it had to be a misunderstanding!

By the way in my opinion these ICA/FA engines are interesting. 27-29 hp 100cc, calculated on 125cc is 35-36 hp. I think it ain't no bad taking into account the fact that tehy are low-controlled (Ex 172-178 deg, STA 0,0125-130 , blowdown 0,0060-65) , have a small carburator and a "bad" exhaust pipe etc. I think it could be easily +40 hp out of 125cm3.

What do you think what is the reason that these engines became like this? I mean they have only 3 transfer ports and such a huge boost transfer. I suppose that these characteristics are in connection with the wide power band somehow, but the old ICA-J (piston controlled inlet port) engines had similar characteristics althought they had 4 old-school transfer ports. In the last few years they were barely weaker than ICA engines.

[wobbly]

In a 100cc bore the 3 ports give plenty of area to suit the power being generated.
More port divider walls would dramatically increase the flow friction with no real gain in directional control to increase the scavenging efficiency.
The porting developed over time to enable a very wide, but low , power spread and the biggest advantage came from being able to use very short gearing
that allowed a big torque multiplication for drive off turns, this then combined with a high terminal speed enabled by pulling 22,000 rpm.
All worked around the best way to manage direct drive in a single ratio.

[F5 Dave]

What year GG300? I've dynoed a couple and they definitely have a dip when the PV opens (too early and too fast) but they werent as bad as you described so I think you're right to look for something playing up or not working right. I've seen a few with very sloppy powervalves

Hi Dave(?), hoped you'd pipe up as I know you've dyno'd some. Mines an 07, but I've 10*'d the head (was 14) & brought the squish down to 1mm (72mm bore & forged piston). Man its cleaned up low end response fantastically. But the dip I noticed riding it yesterday as the terrain had some wider sections. PV is next on the list for some attn. After rebuild of two buckets before the GP in 2 weeks time of course.

[2T Institute]

The theoretical MSV of 38M/Sec you are achieving will work OK, but for only 12200 rpm with 54.5 stroke the squish gap should be down at 0.6mm.
0.65 is useable in a normal 125 spinning to 14000 all day, but your piston is obviously heavyer.
The limiting factor should be that at the peak rpm used, the piston should be just shy of clipping the head.
Thus for the best squish action we end up with virtually zero clearance, so in effect the theoretical MSV becomes irrelevant.

That is when a RS makes the most HP with a 'shadow' left on the piston from the squish band.

I'll post some pics tomorrow, roll pins for ring pegs creating deto.

[richban]

Well the 300 fired into life today. Its taken 3 months to completely rebuild the engine and the bike. Now it just needs to be tuned and ridden hard.

My guess on the power stakes is a fat 80. We will see. Its been heaps of fun building my first proper 2 stroke race bike. Lots of info came from the people that frequent this thread. A gold mine to be sure. Thanks. Its an MC21 SE.

I have lots of picks on the engine build and porting that I will post later.


Cheers RB

[TZ350]

Its an MC21 SE. I have lots of picks on the engine build and porting that I will post later.

Good work, please post your pics on here, I would love to see them.

[TZ350]

294109

5 days from ordering the new stator from Ricks Stators and receiving it, pretty good I recon.

294110

Scotts F5 bike

294111

Red line is where we were, blue is where we are at now after cutting 30mm out of the mid section, still a little more work needed on the pipe but will give it a run at Mt Welly this weekend and if it survives we will bring it to Tokoroa.

[richban]

Best Degree Wheel Ever.

[chrisc]

Hahaha brilliant! I might steal that one

[cotswold]

Scotts F5 bike

294111

Red line is where we were, blue is where we are at now after cutting 30mm out of the mid section, still a little more work needed on the pipe but will give it a run at Mt Welly this weekend and if it survives we will bring it to Tokoroa.[/QUOTE]

Looks like my dyno run but 1.6hp better, what is the cause of that big dip? is it just the pipe?

[wobbly]

The big hole is an indication that there is a huge mismatch in the engines specs somewhere.
The porting is fighting the pipe or the ignition curve is wrong.
Was the ignition changed at all when you shortened the pipe and moved the powerband so dramatically.
The curve for sure cant be right for both runs on the dyno.
It could also be the fuel curve is way out,needing a different main/air corrector, but again the jetting cant have been "right " for both setups on the dyno.

[F5 Dave]

Best Degree Wheel Ever.
Probably find that's a $60 record in some circles. You might need to go shoot the guy so he's in the paper and sends the price skyrocketing. It's a little immoral & you might go to jail, but the fiduciary responsibility is yours to ensure your investment prospers.

[sonic_v]

294109

5 days from ordering the new stator from Ricks Stators and receiving it, pretty good I recon.

294110

Scotts F5 bike

294111

Red line is where we were, blue is where we are at now after cutting 30mm out of the mid section, still a little more work needed on the pipe but will give it a run at Mt Welly this weekend and if it survives we will bring it to Tokoroa.

What diameter is your midsection? It looks like upwards of 100mm.

Are you running the std cylinder or one of the after market ones?

[twotempi]

"Probably find that's a $60 record in some circles"

If you look for some Barry Manilow records they should be cheaper and you certainly won't regret using them as timing discs.

[F5 Dave]

But I won't be using my UK pressing of Rattus Norvegicus.

I youtubed the other chap & he has 1/2 doz listings. Never heard of him, seems to do covers. He certainly didn't write 'If I were a carpenter'. But then again I've only heard Robert Plant sing it so who cares about other versions?

[speedpro]

I have Rattus Norvegicas, probably been played less then 1/2 doz times.

[TZ350]

Here's how I mounted my sensor. I drilled-tapped an old head bolt and screwed a stud.

263052

My sensor has a PN 0-261-231-001, what's yours?
According to this http://www.phormula.co.uk/KnockCalculator.aspx , deto freq for 56mm bore should be 10.2kHz.
According to Bosch datasheets for PN -047 (http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/en-US/literature/en-US/Knock_Sensor_KS-R_Datasheet_51_en_2779074187.pdf) & -120 (http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/pdf/sensors/knock/KS-P.pdf), sensors are able to catch frequencies from 1 to 20 kHz. I assume all Bosch sensors can sense knock within this range (?)


263081

BOSCH p/n 0 261 231 046

263082

Other sensors can be found here too. http://www.bosch.com.au/content/language1/html/4563.htm


I found some steel head bolts and faced one off, then drilled and tapped it. And made a standoff that was carefully faced off as the knock sensor likes to be securely mounted on a very flat surface. The black goop (silicon glue) on the blue wire is there as a strain relief and hopefully it will stop the vibration breaking the wire where it is attached to the copper head fin.

294192294193

Posted because I was recently asked about the det sensor I used. I earthed one of the two wires.

Probably does not matter which. As knock sensors usually only have one wire I guess they are earthed through the brass part of the body. So I am not sure if you need to earth one wire or if there are two sensors in this unit to cover a wider range of frequencies. Anyway mine worked with one of the wires earthed.

[Neal]

294192294193

Posted because I was recently asked about the det sensor I used. I earthed one of the two wires.

Do you have a det counter or just a light ?

[TZ350]

It all works on the frequency of the vibration, an engine at 12,000rpm is 200 hz and detonation rings at a much higher frequency, like 1-10kHz. The detector attached to the knock sensor is responding to the frequency of the vibration, not the p-p amplitude.

http://www.bosch.com.au/content/language1/html/4563.htm

264977


Do you have a det counter or just a light ?

Hi Neal, the detector/amplifier I got of Ebay comes with lights and I currently use an optional extra output to signal the ignition to retard when there is detonation. I recently got another detector with two extra outputs, one for the ignition retard and another for a det counter. I have not got around to trying the det counter yet.


270747

I have just received another Knock Gauge, this one has two extra outputs. http://www.knockgauge.eu/content/blogcategory/22/41/

YouTube links showing the Knock Gauge in action.

The two green lights, the orange warning light then you see the red det light. http://youtu.be/aZkZR-JBr_E and http://youtu.be/vFoZyw_sHmA

Like last time, one that goes to ground for signaling the IgniTec to retard and a new one that pulses from 0V to +5V each time the Knock Gauge sees a detonation event.

The Curtis event counter can then count the detonations. Now I have the makings of a det sensor, ignition retarder and det counter.


The Trumeter 7111 is no longer stocked by RS but they do have something similar.

269009

703TR002N-512D RS part number 183-5952 $63.50 ... 5-12V and less than 10mA so easily self powered and at 500Hz fast enough to count all deto events as seen by the Knock Gauge or similar, as 200Hz in a 2-Stroke equals 12,000 rpm.

269008

And here is something if you want to try your hand at making a complete det counter for your self.

269011

RS part number 185-6090 $45.30

You could box this along with an amp or frequency filter from Jaycar and make you own little compact det counter.

269012

Electrical specs.

269014

Two different ways to go, with an amp you would count the high amplitude deto peaks or you could use a band or high pass frequency filter and count whatever passes through it.

This post links back to various cheap counters that could be used with the Knock Gauge.

294223

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Knock-gauge-for-detonation-sensor-klopfsensor-NEW-/181309925670?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item2a36e9e926&vxp=mtr

If you have an amplifier/detector like the one I got of Ebay the very left green light will be on when the ignition is on and then you tune it so that you get a strong second green light when your starting a dyno pull on WOT and the middle orange lights should just start to come on when your at max power, and you will not miss the very bright right hand red light when there is deto.

You have to tune it because cylinders are different diameters and therefore deto has a different frequencie on a big cylinder compared to a smaller diameter one. If your getting one of these, don't forget to get it with the optional extra wires out for switching the ignition, det counter etc other wise you will only get a box with lights.

A head bolt is probably best, For a V twin Twin .... get another knock sensor from pick a part and wire them in parallel that way you will see deto on either cylinder otherwise go for the known troublesome one.

[TZ350]

What diameter is your midsection? It looks like upwards of 100mm.

Are you running the std cylinder or one of the after market ones?

294219

Running an aftermarket cylinder with the exhaust raised to 192 duration.

Pipe mid section is about 110mm diameter.





Would the bulge have a similar effect on a single Ex port ??

294218

That depends on the port width. A single port will not be as wide as the total width of a bridged port, so the effect will be less pronounced, but the principle remains the same: each particle of exhaust gas wants to leave the building ASAP and the shortest path is radially outward. Therefore the radial lines from the center of the cylinder bore to the edges of the exhaust port describe the initial shape of the exhaust duct's side flanks.

But the duct volume should be no larger than absolutely necessary, so continuing those radial lines would be counter-productive. As the exhaust duct floor drops, these side flanks can be curved towards each other, keeping the flow cross-area of the duct constant. The picture shows the underside of the duct.

288391

One of the Team brought one of these Stage6 road bike cylinders. (the others are listed as Road/Race)

288393

A good looking cylinder but it needs a little work in the exhaust port.

288392

Top edge was marked out and chamfered back.

288394

Then the port roof was raised and the sides shaped like Frits suggested.

In this view, the curved top of the ports is an optical allusion, they are in fact flat and the sides at the bottom that look flat are actually curved up.

288395

I was worried about the Nicosil pealing off above the exhaust port but this cylinder has done a bit of time on the dyno now, and so far so good.

[TZ350]

294227

Friends have been asking me, "whats happened to the fuel injection project".

Well I hogged so much dyno time chasing my tail that I have had to take a break for a bit while we get some of the other team projects sorted. Once I knew the EFI project was going to work I was happy to take a break for a few weeks and help out with the other bikes.

294228

I am now waiting on some new fuel injectors, when they turn up I will be back into it and hopefully after I have tided the installation up have something to take to the track for real life testing.

[Kickaha]

Two stroke and CVT, bit bigger than a bucket though, about 15 sec in there's some shots of the cvt working

http://youtu.be/Sh0l1rScV3M

[sonic_v]

110mm is very fat for a 50cc.

Thats equivalent to a 148mm pipe on a 125.

You will be chasing your tail with that pipe.

Have you tried calculating the volume ratio of the pipe before shortening it. I would say it might will be in the fifty mark.

The catalogue image you show is for scooter cylinders. Is it actually one of these you have used or an am6 equivalent?

[TZ350]

You will be chasing your tail with that pipe.

The catalog image you show is for scooter cylinders. Is it actually one of these you have used or an am6 equivalent?

Thanks for the Heads Up, we are just starting to learn about pipes.

Hmmmm we were given it, I am not very familiar with these cylinders. I wanted to check it out and all I can realy say is, that it was a low spec (short ex duration) Stage 6 cylinder and it looks like that one and not any of the others.

[sonic_v]

Thanks for the Heads Up, we are just starting to learn about pipes.

Hmmmm we were given it, I am not very familiar with these cylinders. All I can say is, that it was a low spec (short ex duration) Stage 6 cylinder and it looks like that one and not any of the others.

Would be interested to see the dimensions for the complete pipe if at all possible.

[TZ350]

Two stroke and CVT, bit bigger than a bucket though, about 15 sec in there's some shots of the cvt working

Thanks Kickaha ......

[Forgi]

In a 100cc bore the 3 ports give plenty of area to suit the power being generated......


I see, Wob. Thanks!

[husaberg]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=p6q88k8VgSk

Worth a watch esp the save at around 3 minutes and the last crash.Stole it It was posted in the joke section on KB.

[WilDun]

Amazing thing is that none of those guys seemed to be seriously hurt !

[cotswold]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC6GHMTWJrg&feature=youtu.be

[TZ350]

Would be interested to see the dimensions for the complete pipe if at all possible.

The pipe was made some time ago and I am not sure where the design came from, possibly Blairs pipe design program with all the extreme options, as you do. I have recently suffered a computer crash so struggling to find some of the historical info amongst the backups. If I can find the dwg I will post it.

[richban]

Well it had its first run. Sounds great. We ran it up with stock pipes and stock carbs first. A massive 50hp. Ummmm. Ok time to bolt on the good bits. So on go the the 38mm RS250 carbs already jetted on the other 300. Then the tyga pipes that worked on the other 300. ok hold on to you seat. 60. ha! Checked power valves and all sorts of bit and bobs. No improvement what ever we did. This is running the PGM3. So some more head scratching to figure whats different to the other bike. The Loom. The other bike has the HRC loom and delimiting box. Anyway. That stopped us there. But It is a beast. 60hp @ 8000rpm and 34 toques or somewhere around that.

Just waiting on the ignitech to grab the other 20hp and we will go racing. I am quite scared of it already. The other one makes more than 80.

Big thanks to Scott and Brent for there time yesterday. You guys tuning up a storm on all sorts of stuff.

[TZ350]

Sounds good, I am looking forward to some pictures. With Team GPR and yourself getting 27hp from your FXR150's Team ESE are going to have to pull their socks up.

[richban]

Sounds good, I am looking forward to some pictures. With Team GPR and yourself getting 27hp from your FXR150's Team ESE are going to have to pull their socks up.

Ha ha. Yeah I think if I left my bike with Scott for a week it would have 30. Or be in more pieces than it is now.

[Bert]

Well it had its first run. Sounds great. We ran it up with stock pipes and stock carbs first. A massive 50hp. Ummmm. Ok time to bolt on the good bits. So on go the the 38mm RS250 carbs already jetted on the other 300. Then the tyga pipes that worked on the other 300. ok hold on to you seat. 60. ha! Checked power valves and all sorts of bit and bobs. No improvement what ever we did. This is running the PGM3. So some more head scratching to figure whats different to the other bike. The Loom. The other bike has the HRC loom and delimiting box. Anyway. That stopped us there. But It is a beast. 60hp @ 8000rpm and 34 toques or somewhere around that.

Just waiting on the ignitech to grab the other 20hp and we will go racing. I am quite scared of it already. The other one makes more than 80.

Big thanks to Scott and Brent for there time yesterday. You guys tuning up a storm on all sorts of stuff.

Yea I can imagine the day was rather disappointing for you buddy, had us scratching our heads.

The poor old dyno has had a beating over the past month, but I recon Scott has really started to understand the outputs/results and make positive gains to every bike that's been on it. Except yours...

These 300cc are bloody cool...

[mr bucketracer]

Ha ha. Yeah I think if I left my bike with Scott for a week it would have 30. Or be in more pieces than it is now.i think in 2 hours i could get a strong 28+ (-; .. good thing been my dyno is 3hp lease than the one you have been useing so right on dyno jet spec's like i set it up for

[kel]

Well mine's ready, and Im hoping the big air scoop added to the front of the bike will allow it to run 40 laps without over heating.
Yes that camera is facing back, obviously that's were the action will be!
294482

[mr bucketracer]

Well mine's ready, and Im hoping the big air scoop added to the front of the bike will allow it to run 40 laps without over heating.
Yes that camera is facing back, obviously that's were the action will be!
294482so your planing on getting laped like me:killingme

[TZ350]

294489

Ok ... I am all geared up for the F5 GP at Tokoroa and I am Looking forward to a hard fought battle for last place.

294490

Interesting that the torqe curve peaks at max rpm, whats that about, could I squeese some more rpm out of it ....:scratch:

[mr bucketracer]

294489

Ok ... I am all geared up for the F5 GP at Tokoroa and I am Looking forward to a hard fought battle for last place.

294490

Interesting that the torqe curve peaks at max rpm, whats that about....:scratch:you had to bet me by .2 ha ha

[TZ350]

you had to beat me by .2 ha ha

The determined dyno racer that I am, I sweated blood to get that extra 0.2

[mr bucketracer]

The determined dyno racer that I am, I sweated blood to get that extra 0.2just back mine of a tad for pactice , put a det counter on it to keep i eye on it

[Drew]

Ok ... I am all geared up for the F5 GP at Tokoroa and I am Looking forward to a hard fought battle for last place.

Interesting that the torqe curve peaks at max rpm, whats that about, could I squeese some more rpm out of it ....:scratch:Do you always run a slick on the dyno?

The figures would read higher with road tyres, as I understnad it.

I do realise it's an arbitrary number, used for tuning purposes only....but bragging rights is bragging rights man!

[TZ350]

Do you always run a slick on the dyno? The figures would read higher with road tyres, as I understnad it.

Yes. but only because that is what is on the bike.

I know that pumping the tyre up hard makes a little more power. Well actually looses less power climbing the hill. Road Tyre = more power, how does that work? less sticktion and/or deflection on the drum? any ideas.

[Drew]

Yes. but only because that is what is on the bike. Road Tyre = more power, how does that work? less sticktion on the drum? any ideas.Just less drag I think.

I was told about Chris Ozbourne (I think it was Chris, my memory sucks) tuning a supersport/F2 bike some time ago. It had been track ridden with a slick, or the rear rim had one already, but he fucked around for ages trying to get power he had previously gotten from similar bikes. Only changed the hoop because it got canvas showing from the number of runs he'd done, and BOOM, numbers stacked up.

Atleast, something similar to those events....I've made memory disclaimers many times.

[pete376403]

recall reading way back about AMA roadracing in the 70's, Gene Romero qualified fastest at Daytona by having two front tyres on his Triumph. The reduction in rolling resistance/drag was enough to make the difference. Racing was of course done with proper tyres front and rear

[cotswold]

294489

Ok ... I am all geared up for the F5 GP at Tokoroa and I am Looking forward to a hard fought battle for last place.

294490

Interesting that the torqe curve peaks at max rpm, whats that about, could I squeese some more rpm out of it ....:scratch:

How come everyone's 50's
have horsepowers in double figures

[F5 Dave]

That's pretty solid, there'll be a bunch of fast 50s this year. Just put mine back together bar final adding water, fettling foot pegs etc. new ring, can see some light down the side so it won't be pulling the 14.3hp it has done in the past ;). (I can spot a pattern). Well 10 years ago in 2004. It's only had rings, the odd piston and a bunch of wear since then. Oh and 10 GPs, a hand full of BoBs and a million club miles.

[TZ350]

You have had good value, mine is a borrowed bike so I hope I don't break it.