ESE's works engine tuner

[kel]

A very happy 65th birthday Mr TZ350. Congratulations you are now entitled to a gold card! (a subsidised public transport plan for senior citizens :laugh:)
Have a great day Rob, see you tomorrow.

[F5 Dave]

Yeah happy birthday Rob.

[TZ350]

Yep, thanks ... I have been hanging out for my Gold card and free MNZ race licence, it is letter from the Queen next ... :laugh:

[Bert]

Happy birthday Rob.
It will be great to catch up this weekend.


So the drinks are on you tonight.:msn-wink:

[TZ350]

Happy birthday Rob.
It will be great to catch up this weekend.


So the drinks are on you tonight.:msn-wink:

307756

Yep as much as you can drink ... Beersies all round.

[Frits Overmars]

A blend of oygen and hydrogen atoms? We've got enough H2O over here, I don't really fancy drinking H2O2, and I don't think we can brew anything else from H and O. Nevertheless, happy birthday mate. Enjoy your Gold Card :D.

[breezy]

I've been doing some sketching based on the comma idea. I can be done, but I haven't yet figured out where to put the actuator linkages. These would get in the way of the coolant passages that don't show up on the sketches, so I'm not done thinking yet.
The lowered yellow comma reduces the transfer timing from 130° to 60°. That is an 80% reduction in area and a 91% reduction in angle.area, which should be good for idling at about 2000 rpm.
The second picture shows how the lowered yellow comma fits nicely between the transfer duct sidewalls and the piston.
The blue comma on the left disappears into the transfer roof when it's completely up, but it will show some leakage at intermediate positions. I think I can live with that.

Frits, with the exhaust ports sitting directly above all transfer ports and with what looks like a very small area of metal seperating them, wouldnt this cause problems from the exhaust gas heat, detonation, at worst, or heating up the fresh charge in the transfer ports. I would think the water cooling path to keep all this cool would have to be really targeted and cricial else disaster....:eek:

[Lucas M]

Hello, It´s me again,
Thank you for your reply.


Lucas - here are some guides that will let you see where to start.
The pipe lengths should be around 32% from piston to header end, and 66% from piston to diffuser end.
Having 50mm added to the header will for sure make the lengths all wrong.
The cylinder duct exit should be 75% of the total effective Ex port area, and the header start should be 100%, with an oval duct ( plus ears )
to promote Aux blowdown flow - with a smooth transition in the spigot from oval to round.
The rear wall of the Aux Ex is way too shallow, the exit radial angle should be to bore centre, with a pocket turn into the duct.
There is going to be a blowdown mismatch in the STA numbers at 190/130 , can you widen the B port without getting into the ring pins.
Also I can see that the B port is angled up sharply, this needs the roof ground flatter to say 10*, then epoxy the A port roof to 25*.
With no powervalve you should have the A port highest, then staggered down to B and C like a Honda RS.
Can you fit a programmable.
Having a 50cc make peak at 11500 means the pipe and ports are not matched, to use the rev potential of the little engines stroke.

Wobbly, you are right by giving me the percentages for exhaust lengths. Never calculated it, but now I can say, my header is too long, about 6%. Without lengthen the header, my exhaust fits nearly 100% with Frits rule of thumb.
The rear wall of the Aux Ex IS way too shallow, unfortunately there is not infinite space behind for good flow, because of the studs. Same for widen the b ports, but I will do what I can.
11500rpm is too low for racing, I realize this in every race. Around 12500rpm would be nice.
You earlier wrote something about the staggered ports like Honda RS. Jan Thiel wrote regarding to the Aprilia RS cylinder with power valve, open the b ports earlier gave a bit more power in low revs. What´s the knowledge behind staggering like Honda? (You wrote something about that in post #3259 of this thread)

That German forum might be just the thing for you, Lucas, because it mainly concentrates on your machine brand: Simson.
It's not an open forum, but what you can do is this: the power graph you posted shows a phone number. Dial it and ask for LuKas (:D).
He is one of the forum administrators. If you can convince him that you will be an asset to the forum, he may let you in.

One more thing: on 31 January the annual Tunerbattle takes place in Zwickau. It's a test bench competition for Simson tuners. Lukas can tell you all about it.
And one day before, on friday 30 January, many members of this german forum will meet in Zwickau and get drunk talk two-stroke. I'll probably be there too.
Maybe you can gate-crash :whistle:. In fact I'm sure you can, because none of us knows all members by face. Just drop in. But don't tell them I told you.

Frits, I was expecting it´s the two strokes forum but I was hoping it would be an open forum. I know Lukas, but my thought is, these 2-stroke wizards will rather stay among themselves. The Tunerbattle in Jan 31st is already circled in my calendar.

[wobbly]

Flow divider plates do work very well - I did this on several Jatski setups where the carbs sat vertically and the manifold was a steep angle
into the reed valve on the side of the engine.
This was done to get the intake length correct, and there was no room sideways inside the hull.
The thin plate split the carb flow area in 1/2 ( well not quite as I offset the divider to try and bias some more flow on the short turn side - the
flow bench pitot probe said it worked wonders in cfm and velocity ) and ended up as the same thickness as the divider in the VF3 reeds.
I dont know exactly how much power this created, but adding 50mm to the intake length in EngMod said it was worth 4 Hp per cylinder of the twin, and
the whole mod setup made another 12 Hp at peak rpm at the crank.
The same idea works wonders on engines where the intake manifold is severely bent, upwards or sideways.
Dividing the inlet in 1/2 helps to equalise the flow entering the case,and along with staggered reed backups this bumps up power every time.

Re port stagger - the Aprilia has a powervalve plus full digital control of the ignition and powerjets.
In any engine - like KZ2 for example with no powervalve and a straight line ignition, the high A port with staggered lower B and C gives much wider powerband width
especially down low where the pipe is only just starting to work.
The high B port scenario was developed solely to enable much bigger Aux Ex port sizing above a low A port, as was need to give the very high peak and overev power numbers.
The powervalve and ignition took care of the midrange power.

[TZ350]

Hello, It´s me again, Frits, I was expecting it´s the two strokes forum but I was hoping it would be an open forum. I know Lukas, but my thought is, these 2-stroke wizards will rather stay among themselves.

Your project is very interesting, I would love to see more pictures and details of your work posted here as it progresses.

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, with the exhaust ports sitting directly above all transfer ports and with what looks like a very small area of metal seperating them....True. The metal between auxiliary exhaust floors and transfer roofs in many conventional cylinders is even thinner, but the difference is that in my cylinder all transfer roofs double as exhaust floors. The commas will form a welcome heat barrier.


I would think the water cooling path to keep all this cool would have to be really targeted.True again. Like I said the other day, I wanted to show more of the cylinder layout here, but there was no option to upload the ZIP-file, so I mailed it to Mental Trousers. He wrote: "I'm still away on holiday at the moment so I'm only online sporadically using my phone and I'm not able to do this right now but I'll take care of it as soon as I get back to civilisation."

[TZ350]

Maybe it helps if you not only watch how far the throttle is opened, but also the rate at which it is opened.

Ok, I have found the section in the Ecotrons manual where it talks about tuning for the throttle blip.
307775

By default it does not work above 3,000rpm, but I can set it higher to suit my engine.

307776

From a quick read, the amount of enriching is tied to the predicted load increase as the throttle is opened. I guess its like a smart accelerator pump.

307777

You can determine the "Load" from the recorded data.

307778

And adjust the map, it looks like a bit of trial and error is required to get it right.

307783

There are other adjustments in the advanced calibration file for tuning for the rate of change in the throttle opening (TPS).

All I need to do now is learn how to use it.

[136kg136ps]

Wobbly,would there be any advantage to a divider in a RZ or CPI cylinder intake?

[Lucas M]

Your project is very interesting, I would love to see more pictures and details of your work posted here as it progresses.

No Problem. It´s a pleasure for me, to giving you something back, for all the stuff you (and the others) posted here.

The pictures below show some details of work. I also installed a 120mm PC fan above the head. It works with 14,8V lithium polymer accu. Very good cooling for the cylinder head. Maybe you should think of :msn-wink:
On the one picture you can see my 2 stroke car called Trabant built in my hometown Zwickau/Germany. 26HP out of 600ccm :eek:

[wobbly]

The RZ/CPI has a severe down bend in the intake, thus the majority of the flow adheres to the roof and of course punches open the upper
reeds way more than the lowers ( made worse by the fact that the Boyesens are on the reed box floor ).
With a VF3 in place you can make a curved blade the same thickness as the VF divider at one end ( with a ball nose radius to fit over the leading edge )
tapering down to a small radius facing the carb.
By raising the leading edge of the blade you can equalise the upper and lower reed opening ( that is the flow ).
Easy to test with a vacuum cleaner hose connected to the exit ( or a leaf blower, or if you are really desperate the exhaust pipe on your car - been there done that ).
Of course the flow bench with a velocity pitot is the real go.
I did this on a CR250 on a kart and picked up 3Hp from memory.

[136kg136ps]

Brilliant,thanks!

[jasonu]

No Problem. It´s a pleasure for me, to giving you something back, for all the stuff you (and the others) posted here.

The pictures below show some details of work. I also installed a 120mm PC fan above the head. It works with 14,8V lithium polymer accu. Very good cooling for the cylinder head. Maybe you should think of :msn-wink:
On the one picture you can see my 2 stroke car called Trabant built in my hometown Zwickau/Germany. 26HP out of 600ccm :eek:

Have you got any videos of your class you can post here?

[Frits Overmars]

Have you got any videos of your class you can post here?Here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqSoqF1vnRQ . And at the right of the YouTube page you'll find a lot more Simson videos.
The big guy doing the interviews is my mate Jan Schäffer wo runs a two-stroke tuning business in Zwickau. Weighing 116 kg with his boots on he's not quite the perfect figure for 50 cc racing. But nobody told him, so he is also the guy who won more SimsonGP titles than any other rider.
After dominating the open classes I persuaded him to try his luck in the aircooled pistonported standard 50cc class, thinking that he couldn't possibly win there, which would be good for the series. Well, he won the 50 cc standard class and using the same 50 cc bike he also won the 85 cc standard class. that 50 cc bike ain't bad.

[2T Institute]

Love the Trabie:lol:

[Frits Overmars]

Love the TrabieYou asked for it:

[jasonu]

Here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqSoqF1vnRQ . And at the right of the YouTube page you'll find a lot more Simson videos.
The big guy doing the interviews is my mate Jan Schäffer wo runs a two-stroke tuning business in Zwickau. Weighing 116 kg with his boots on he's not quite the perfect figure for 50 cc racing. But nobody told him, so he is also the guy who won more SimsonGP titles than any other rider.
After dominating the open classes I persuaded him to try his luck in the aircooled pistonported standard 50cc class, thinking that he couldn't possibly win there, which would be good for the series. Well, he won the 50 cc standard class and using the same 50 cc bike he also won the 85 cc standard class.

Thanks for posting.

[TZ350]

The pictures below show some details of work. On the one picture you can see my 2 stroke car called Trabant built in my hometown Zwickau/Germany. 26HP out of 600ccm :eek:

Thanks for the tip about the PC fan, I will try it. I like the pictures, very good workmanship, and I think your Trabaint transporter is really cool... :niceone:

[F5 Dave]

Good to see you out on the GP again, pity it just didn't want to pick up. Must be more on this initial throttle opening stuff.

[AndreasL]

Mental Trousers wrote: "I'm still away on holiday at the moment so I'm only online sporadically using my phone and I'm not able to do this right now but I'll take care of it as soon as I get back to civilisation."

:eek: Cant wait!


No Problem. It´s a pleasure for me, to giving you something back, for all the stuff you (and the others) posted here.

The pictures below show some details of work. I also installed a 120mm PC fan above the head. It works with 14,8V lithium polymer accu. Very good cooling for the cylinder head. Maybe you should think of :msn-wink:
On the one picture you can see my 2 stroke car called Trabant built in my hometown Zwickau/Germany. 26HP out of 600ccm :eek:

Great Lucas!
Please let us see more of your work.
I find it really interesting since I know "everything" about 50cc barrels with to tightly placed studs and crap dual transfers with little room for improvement.
The Simson is way better then anything I have so even half of your PS would be great.
EngMod2T says it is easily but I'm not overly convinced that a BMEP of even 6-8 bar is realistic for me and my lack of experience. Time will tell. Lawnmover anyone? 

[FastFred]

<iframe width="640" height="390" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/EFjakgypqSs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

For sale Next generation bucket race bikes.

CVT Scooter Vis CBR on a Kart track. TZ's idea of using a CVT looks like a good one, it can only be time before someone makes a Bucket using a CVT transmission.

[wobbly]

If you press a thin sleeve into the stud hole the B port can be ground all the way up to the insert, then widen and hook the port.
The Aux rear wall has plenty of room to get a radial exit with a pocket to turn the flow.
You need to get some parallel header at the exit from the cylinder, and construct a smooth bend into the diffuser,this is worth
1 -2 Hp for free.

[Lucas M]

Ok Wobbly, I will do it like this at the new one. I read somewhere it´s good for flow to make the header straight and this was my solution. So it´s better to make the very first part of the header straight, I understand.
I also did some moldings of every port. Never did this in this cylinder. The result is not bad, but it can be better. What I will do is, get better backflow on the exhaust side of the A-port.
The flow directions of the B-ports doesn´t look bad.
In the exhaust duct, there is some work to do. The port for the aux ports is way too small, like you said. I will do this here with a sleeve in the studs. I think the most power I can gain is with the exhaust pipe and port. Also good to see, the too big volume inside the exhaust duct.

[Muciek]

Using 1 ring piston it's possible to get there a boostport , that could help too. Nice to see that power with such a "simple" cylinder . Here people do 2kg's of welding for cylinder & cases and get probably nowhere near half the potential of engine capacity :facepalm:

[Flettner]

So, Ok, off topic for a moment. LPG what do "we" know about running this as a fuel though a twostroke? Has anyone out there had any experience with this fuel? I'm assuming it would have to be run though an EFI system?

[Mental Trousers]

NOTE post #16193 now has an attachment that Frits asked me to add a week ago.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130813132#post1130813132

[pete376403]

So, Ok, off topic for a moment. LPG what do "we" know about running this as a fuel though a twostroke? Has anyone out there had any experience with this fuel? I'm assuming it would have to be run though an EFI system?

TukTuks that i rode in (as a passenger) in Bangkok were biggish two strokes running LPG. So you now have good cause for a fact finding tour of Thailand. You're welcome.

[speedpro]

All I know is my hiace with 173 holden engine made 2hp more on lpg. If I remember it had some sort of CV device to meter the gas. They run all sorts of stationary engines on gas. The ESE guys should be a help here.

[husaberg]

All I know is my hiace with 173 holden engine made 2hp more on lpg. If I remember it had some sort of CV device to meter the gas. They run all sorts of stationary engines on gas. The ESE guys should be a help here.

Its higher octane than petrol they run a gas regulator, some high power turbo diesels run it now as a intercooling power booster......

[speedpro]

Probably has good latent heat of evaporation seeing as it starts as liquid then vaporises. The mixer was heated by engine cooling system water. Actually it's that exact property that is the mechanism behind LPG powered fridges.

I can just see Flettner's bike with a bbq gas cylinder strapped to the back.

We should talk Rob into using LPG as a coolant. He could route the feed pipe between the fins of the engine. All he'd need was a little pilot light so there wasn't a buildup of flammable gas. It could be fed into some sort of burner tube, possibly with reed valves at the front :shifty:

[ken seeber]

Orbital was involved in the programme with Bajaj to run the Tuk Tuks on LPG. This was manifold injected in a gaseous state. In conjunction with this was an electronic oil pump that delivered oil based on rpm and load. However in the land of Oz, Ford have a production Falcon that can be supplied with LPG, but manifold injected rather than via a mixer at the start of the inlet manifold. This is called "EcoLPi (Liquid Phase Injection) is a new technology developed by Ford engineers right here in Australia", to use their words. I'd be pretty sure that it is available in NZ as well. Easy to search on, but the guts of it is that it injects liquid LPG rather than gas. However, as a liquid it vaporizes and (due to the latent heat of vaporization) it cools the ingoing air and increases the charge density and increases power over the petrol equivalent.
So for a 2 stroke, it could be neat to inject it to the underside of the piston crown, via a ported piston, eg for the C passage.

Neil, have you worked out how to cast the vanes into the transfer passages? Dunno why I ask, you've probably done it already.:yes:

Frits, question on the lower edge of the transfer port being at BDC to cool the piston. If the passage was angled upwards at, say the 25 degs, how much of the ingoing charge would actually sweep across the piston crown, particularly so with crowns that are seemingly becoming flat? Maybe a CFD study might show, by the Coanda effect, that it does, but I'd be a bit surprised. I would have thought that it might be beneficial to have the port floor a little higher to have an ingoing charge enter the cylinder undisturbed by the piston edge, particularly towards BDC when the maximum mass flow is approximately occurring. However I do concede that there are a lot of factors at play that need to be considered, especially the STA.

[Frits Overmars]

LPG probably has good latent heat of evaporation seeing as it starts as liquid then vaporises. The mixer was heated by engine cooling system water.It is not the mixer that is heated by engine coolant, but the converter that turns high-pressure liquid into low-pressure gaseous LPG.
There are liquid-LPG injection systems on the market now but I always used a second-hand converter. I've ran my cars on LPG all my life as it costs one third the price of petrol and the consumption is only about 10% higher. And you need not worry about a power loss either; you only loose some boot space because of the extra tank.
I've always regulated the engine coolant flow through the converter so that the heat supply is barely enough to vaporize the LPG, which then comes into the inlet manifold as a very cold gas: a gaseous intercooler! That definitely gives more power than petrol.
Once I had a setup that really made the car fly. Until I had to stop at a traffic light. The idling engine circulated less coolant, the converter froze and I had to wait 20 minutes before I could get going again. Not nice on a main crossing.

[Frits Overmars]

NOTE post #16193 now has an attachment that Frits asked me to add a week ago. http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130813132#post1130813132Much obliged Shane. Now if you could change the name of the zipfile from fritz.zip to frits.zip, I'd ask you to marry me.

[husaberg]

Much obliged Shane. Now if you could change the name of the zipfile from fritz.zip into frits.zip, I'd ask you to marry me.

Be careful he might say yes........

[Frits Overmars]

Ford have a production Falcon that can be supplied with LPG, but manifold injected rather than via a mixer at the start of the inlet manifold. This is called "EcoLPi (Liquid Phase Injection) is a new technology developed by Ford engineers right here in Australia", to use their words.I never knew Australia was a part of Holland; liquid LPG injection was developed by the dutch company Vialle over 20 years ago (or maybe 30 years; I'm not sure).


Frits, question on the lower edge of the transfer port being at BDC to cool the piston. If the passage was angled upwards at, say the 25 degs, how much of the ingoing charge would actually sweep across the piston crown, particularly so with crowns that are seemingly becoming flat? Maybe a CFD study might show, by the Coanda effect, that it does, but I'd be a bit surprised.Jan Thiel found that the 25° axial transfer angle worked best in combination with a spherical piston crown; a flat piston is too much of a stumbling block (literally) for the Coanda effect.
It's hard to say how much of the positive effect came from scavenging, and how much from piston cooling. In any case it begs for more research into radiused piston edges.
307890




I would have thought that it might be beneficial to have the port floor a little higher to have an ingoing charge enter the cylinder undisturbed by the piston edge...You may well be right, and that should be an extra stimulus for testing curved vanes in the uppermost part of the transfer ducts.

[seattle smitty]

Re LPG in a daily-driver, Frits do you ever have cold start-up problems in mid-winter, before there's any heat around the regulator? I once owned a propane-powered Twin Coach bus that had this issue.

(Still entertaining faint hopes you will comment on my notions, if they are not utterly unworthy of comment, in post 16109, page 1074 . . .:violin:)

[Frits Overmars]

Re LPG in a daily-driver, Frits do you ever have cold start-up problems in mid-winter, before there's any heat around the regulator? I once owned a propane-powered Twin Coach bus that had this issue.If there were predictions of below-zero temperatures, I would switch to petrol the night before, before turning the engine off.


Still entertaining faint hopes you will comment on my notions, if they are not utterly unworthy of comment, in post 16109, page 1074 . . Now let me leaf back to that post. By the way, it would help if you would give a direct link to the post in question.
You can do that by clicking on the post number and then copying and pasting the link that appears on top of the page. In your case it would have been http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130810898#post1130810898

Now that I've found it, I'll read it once more and try to find what I've missed.

[Frits Overmars]

I remember; all I missed at the time was the time to react to your flood of proposals :eek5:.

My first notion for a 24/7 system was to use two carbs.My ideal was, and is, to get rid of carbs altogether. And I certainly would not want to use two of them. Been there, done that.


My current suggestion is to locate the second (24/7) carb on the side of the cylinder opposite the exhaust, directly above the lower portion of the boost-port. I would re-direct the bottom of the boost port to connect directly and smoothly with this second carburetor, and plug off its previous connection to the crankcase.
Now rather than having a modern-style skinny boost-port, one could try an older-style wide boost-port, as used to be seen in some lower-power 2-strokesYou said it. A modern-style skinny boost port would be far too small; older-style wide boost ports would mean giving up decades of transfer port development.


Or, you could have dual boost-ports. Or, you could make your direct connection to the B transfer ports. Or to the "finger-ports" that we used to grind into old-fashioned 3-port cylinders (I have several such engines, mostly Konigs).A 500 cc König makes the most beautiful sound and almost as much power as a 25 year-old 250 cc Yamaha or Honda. I wouldn't use it as a reference.


You could end up having only the "A" pair of transfers connected to the crankcase, rather like very old loop-scavenged 2-strokes, and none of the other ports would come into play until the engine got up to "pipe-speed.... it would solve both the problem Frits had with lack of lube to the bearings... The crankcase is always getting lubricating oil from the primary carburetor....Assuming that the engine will still breathe through that primary carburettor, even though there are more and perhaps easier ways for it to inhale. And even if it does, air speed through that primary carb will drop and the mixture will go lean. Yeah, you can correct that with the second carb; the one that I don't want. Remember KISS?

[wobbly]

More free power - Egor.

[Flettner]

Thank you for your LPG replies, I've been given a chance to manufacture some 700 twin engines but the customer wants them to run on LPG. No problem with everything else but I've not had a lot to do with LPG so this will be interesting. Thankfully they will be running at constant RPM's.

[Mental Trousers]

NOTE post #16193 now has an attachment that Frits asked me to add a week ago. http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130813132#post1130813132Much obliged Shane. Now if you could change the name of the zipfile from fritz.zip to frits.zip, I'd ask you to marry me.

Whoops. Fixed.

Thanks for the offer but I have no wish to have 2 mothers inlaw.

[Frits Overmars]

Thank you for your LPG replies, I've been given a chance to manufacture some 700 twin engines but the customer wants them to run on LPG. No problem with everything else but I've not had a lot to do with LPG so this will be interesting. Thankfully they will be running at constant RPM's.You will of course inject the stuff. But in case you don't, you should know that the converter contains a large membrane that is affected by longitudinal and lateral g-forces. Best place the converter so that acceleration richens the mixture, braking leans it, and cornering doesn't affect it.
Come to think of it: constant rpm indicates airplane use, doesn't it? Then you have air pressure variations to worry about as well. Use injection, not the converter.

[monkeyfumi]

I never knew Australia was a part of Holland

Before it was Australia, one of its names was "New Holland"...

[Flettner]

You will of course inject the stuff. But in case you don't, you should know that the converter contains a large membrane that is affected by longitudinal and lateral g-forces. Best place the converter so that acceleration richens the mixture, braking leans it, and cornering doesn't affect it.
Come to think of it: constant rpm indicates airplane use, doesn't it? Then you have air pressure variations to worry about as well. Use injection, not the converter.

Thankfully not Aviation and thankfully not on the move. Also thankfully pipes can be straight ( header will have a bend ). I think this is an opportunity not to miss out on. The customer wants to pay for them and I get hours of test time on his ticket. ( even if it is on LPG ).

[husaberg]

I never knew Australia was a part of Holland

Before it was Australia, one of its names was "New Holland"...

New Zealand (Or New Zeeland)as well, is named after a part of the Netherlands, but the First Dutch fella as well as never noticing Cook Straight, He was also not that emamoured with the inhabitants and would not accept except their invitation to stay for lunch.

[wobbly]

He must have seen the Palangi Pot

[ken seeber]

I never knew Australia was a part of Holland; liquid LPG injection was developed by the dutch company Vialle over 20 years ago (or maybe 30 years; I'm not sure).

I don't question that Frits.




New Zealand (Or New Zeeland)as well, is named after a part of the Netherlands, but the First Dutch fella as well as never noticing Cook Straight, He was also not that emamoured with the inhabitants and would not accept except their invitation to stay for lunch.

Maybe neither group found the other group delectable:motu: The reality probably was that our locals were told about the liquid LPG injection around 350 years ago and now Ford/Boral/Orbital got it into production. We're on the ball over here !

Around 6 years ago the Oz fed and state governments were offering decent incentives (around A$2k per car) for people to convert their cars to LPG and an industry grew. The logic was there, we have tons of gas over here and we were/are selling it for around $0.02 per litre to overseas, at the same time we are essentially importing all of our petrol. The mixers around then were Oz made, multiple parts and expensive. We decided to enter the fray with a cast one piece design, that featured a cored channel feeding into the venturi via a full circumferential slot. Worked a treat. Set up the production tooling etc and the next day the gov'ts decided to drop all incentives for conversions. The whole industry collapsed overnight. As I said, we're on the ball over here and LPG as a fuel is not as common with diesel becoming more so.
307933307934

[TZ350]

Kel won the first race and bettered the lap record to but unfortunately DNF'd in the second and was unable to start in the third.

The finishing order of the 1st A grade race was 2T 4T 2T 2T - 2nd race 4T 2T 2T 4T and the same again for race 3. The 50's of F5 Daves and Tim circulated mid field in A grade, no mean feat for 50's as the pace in A grade was very fast and furious.


The Second round of the 2014/15 North Island Series was a huge hit this weekend.

A-grade had 20 bikes lined up for the first start along the short and narrow, yet very technical circuit.

Great race report and pictures by Moto4


The results of round 2 of the North Island series are up on Mylaps now:
http://www.mylaps.com/en/events/1104229

As many of you are aware, we had a few problems with the timing loop under the track.

[mr bucketracer]

Kel won the first race and bettered the lap record to but unfortunately DNF'd in the second and was unable to start in the third.

The finishing order of the 1st A grade race was 2T 4T 2T 2T - 2nd race 4T 2T 2T 4T and the same again for race 3. The 50's of F5 Daves and Tim circulated mid field in A grade, no mean feat for 50's as the pace in A grade was very fast and furious.



Great race report and pictures by Moto4no no second was 4t 4t 20hp (-; 2t and 2t fixed lol

[TZ350]

no no second was 4t 4t 20hp (-; 2t and 2t fixed lol

You are right ..... muffed that one, glad I am not the race reporter..... :facepalm:

The Team GPR Videos from Taumarunui are starting to appear here:


First race, Scotty's bike, a view with a difference.

[TZ350]

307938307936307937

All the 2T's at Taumarunui were interesting, this one took a 4th and two 3rd places in A grade. It runs a TF125 farmbike engine, (for those interested in racing a 2T, they still make TF125's new so plenty of engines around). This one has been modified for a triple exhaust port and runs an exhaust temperature data logger.

307939307940307941

A Team GPR bike with an H2O 100cc twin engine, note the two into one muffler, clever.

[TZ350]

307948307950

These two 50's, ran midfield in A grade, a very good effort.

307951307952

There were other 50's in B grade, I am working on a 50 of my own for B grade, its a great class.

307947

FarmerKen getting his boys started early.

307967

Fuel Injected 2T, didn't run that well, started easy and flew on full throttle but I just couldn't get it to come back onto the throttle properly after shutting off. I wanted to be the first person to race a fuel injected 2T in Buckets, well maybe next time.

[adegnes]

Heres a quick update on my 50cc wierdo french build.

I've ditched the original spring loaded pivoting engine mount.
The engine is now stationary (can slide sideways to align the pulleys while variating), and I've fabricated a roller tensioning system to keep tension on the belt, it also has a foot pedal to fine tune on the fly.

The relief grooves for the disc was cut on a homemade dremel jig in my drill press - worked great.

[adegnes]

Reworked crankcase - intake aimed just a few deegrees up, and a pic of the cylinder, notice the chipped nikasil - might destroy itself pretty fast, we'll see.

[TZ350]

307956

Lap record breaker and winner of the first A grade race, Kawasaki KE125 farmbike engine.

307953

Wills TF125 Suzuki farmbike engined rocket, this bike ran at the very sharp end of A grade gaining several placings.

307958307957

MB100 with an interesting mid mount exhaust stinger, works well, very quiet.

307954307955

Aprilia rolling chassis with a Suzuki TF125 farm bike engine.

[TZ350]

307965307966307961

TZ125 chassis with Aprilia 70 motor, a very business like package.

307963307964307962

H2O RGV100, very nice.

There were also a lot of very well developed 4T's mostly based on the FXR150 commuter bike.

[F5 Dave]

Timing became very unreliable sadly so it would be hard to verify if of was a lap record. I supposedly almost equaled it on the 50. Unlikely seeing the way the fast bikes blew me out of the way at the end of the straight. If you choose tobelieve the times Will supposedly went 2.5 seconds quicker. But I can't deny the pace was fast and Kel was likely quickest on the day.

[ken seeber]

Heres a quick update on my 50cc wierdo french build.

I've ditched the original spring loaded pivoting engine mount.
The engine is now stationary (can slide sideways to align the pulleys while variating), and I've fabricated a roller tensioning system to keep tension on the belt, it also has a foot pedal to fine tune on the fly.

The relief grooves for the disc was cut on a homemade dremel jig in my drill press - worked great.

Adegnes,

Neat pics and lots of thought. Well done. One question: With a downward facing cylinder, do you ever have problems with oil, under that gravity, accumulating in the head and oiling up the plug?"
Thanks. Ken.

[adegnes]

Adegnes,

Neat pics and lots of thought. Well done. One question: With a downward facing cylinder, do you ever have problems with oil, under that gravity, accumulating in the head and oiling up the plug?"
Thanks. Ken.

Thanks!
That might become an issue, this is my first upside-down engine, so I have no experience with it yet.

[TZ350]

Timing became very unreliable sadly so it would be hard to verify if it was a lap record.

I think you are right, but a good day never the less, I got to see lots of great people and I met some new faces to. A great meeting all in all. And you were right about that good Thai Restaurant, thanks.

[F5 Dave]

. . . .and putting up your tent?

[TZ350]

It was she who must be obeyed-es idea to tent and had brought one unseen of Trademe.

307971

I could imagine how it was going to go.

307970

And I just knew it would be out to get me.


. . . .and putting up your tent?

So I was very very grateful that you were able to subdue it. Thanks.

307972

[Yow Ling]

Heres a quick update on my 50cc wierdo french build.

I've ditched the original spring loaded pivoting engine mount.
The engine is now stationary (can slide sideways to align the pulleys while variating), and I've fabricated a roller tensioning system to keep tension on the belt, it also has a foot pedal to fine tune on the fly.

The relief grooves for the disc was cut on a homemade dremel jig in my drill press - worked great.

Wow score 12 out of 10 for the milling attachment. I think this configuration of the CVT may be the best for buckets, keep posting stuff please

[190mech]

(Quote) Adegnes,

Neat pics and lots of thought. Well done. One question: With a downward facing cylinder, do you ever have problems with oil, under that gravity, accumulating in the head and oiling up the plug?"
Thanks. Ken.



Lots of light experimental aircraft have used the 'plugs down' setup with good results.The Avid Flyer used a Rotax 532 or 582 in an upside down configuration without any more issues than a 'right side up' set up..

[adegnes]

Wow score 12 out of 10 for the milling attachment. I think this configuration of the CVT may be the best for buckets, keep posting stuff please

Thanks!
It has one big disadvantage though; shorter range - hard on the clutch if you want good take offs and top speed.
I'll keep posting!



Lots of light experimental aircraft have used the 'plugs down' setup with good results.The Avid Flyer used a Rotax 532 or 582 in an upside down configuration without any more issues than a 'right side up' set up..

Thats reassuring to know, thanks!

[Frits Overmars]

Wow score 12 out of 10 for the milling attachment. I think this configuration of the CVT may be the best for buckets.
It has one big disadvantage though; shorter range - hard on the clutch if you want good take offs and top speed.Yes, the work is delightful. But using one variable and one fixed pully will give you only half the range that you could have with both pullies variable.

I've ditched the original spring loaded pivoting engine mount. The engine is now stationary (can slide sideways to align the pulleys while variating), and I've fabricated a roller tensioning system to keep tension on the beltIf you choose to stick with one variable and one fixed pully, ditching the pivoting engine mount is a good idea. And I like the tensioner. But I have my doubts about the sideways sliding engine. It will take some force to make it slide, which means the belt will hardly ever run perpendicular to the shafts. Wouldn't it be even simpler to mount the engine completely unmovable and have the secundary pully sliding sideways on its shaft? That would also avoid the need for a flexible exhaust pipe mounting.

EDIT: taking this thought a bit further: why not make one sheave of the secundary pully slide on splines, spring-loaded, and the other one fixed to the shaft? :D

[adegnes]

Yes, the work is delightful. But using one variable and one fixed pully will give you only half the range that you could have with both pullies variable.

Thanks!

Yep, it acts like a one speed setup (like ktm sx50) until the clutch locks.
With clutch stall at 13000 and gearing to hit 130kmh - no variating before ~40kmh.

[ken seeber]

Fellas, it's all gone quiet. Something someone said?

So, as part of musing the old brain, I kept thinking about the world of 24/7, transfer port vanes and transfer port throttling and I got an idea of combining the latter two.
I herewith offer the shitty attached sketch. Fairly self explanatory.
Sort of obvious and, as usual, has its advantages and disadvantages. As is always the case, probably been done before.
308026
Advantages: Possibly improved transfer port flow and directional control, ability to throttle engine air flow
Disadvantages: Leaves a trapped volume above vane when closed, difficult to implement

Ken

[husaberg]

Fellas, it's all gone quiet. Something someone said?

So, as part of musing the old brain, I kept thinking about the world of 24/7, transfer port vanes and transfer port throttling and I got an idea of combining the latter two.
I herewith offer the shitty attached sketch. Fairly self explanatory.
Sort of obvious and, as usual, has its advantages and disadvantages. As is always the case, probably been done before.
308026
Advantages: Possibly improved transfer port flow and directional control, ability to throttle engine air flow
Disadvantages: Leaves a trapped volume above vane when closed, difficult to implement

Ken

if that was mounted higher up with the pivot point to the rear it could double as a variable transfer height as well ...........kind of like a Honda nsr pv swinging gate........
can't be assed drawing it
308036

[Frits Overmars]

I kept thinking about the world of 24/7, transfer port vanes and transfer port throttling and I got an idea of combining the latter two....probably been done before. Advantages: Possibly improved transfer port flow and directional control, ability to throttle engine air flow. Disadvantages: Leaves a trapped volume above vane when closed, difficult to implement.I like combining things, preferably to the extent that one component performs the job of several other components that will then be made redundant.
Your vane will work, Ken. Throttling will work too. And I haven't seen this before in a two-stroke, though it reminds me of variable-vane turbocharger technology.
Problems: the vane will not prevent blowdown gases from mixing with the fresh charge unless it's fully closed. The vane itself must be thin, a continuous shaft would be too much of an obstruction in the transfer duct, and it will be difficult to attach shaft stubs to the vane.

[adegnes]

In the process of reading this whole thread, I saw this:


Most us cut the squish angle of our heads on the lathe. With a domed piston which is a radius... the squish angle is slightly mismatched being a straight angle.

Any performance benefit to CNC the head squish to match piston dome?


You don't need CNC gear. Just organise an adjustable tie-rod with standard rod-ends mounted between the tailstock and the cross slide.

Adjust the length to match the piston dome radius, lock the tailstock and engage the cross slide feed. Done.


If your head is countersunk into the barrel(if not you'll have to precisely cut and glue matching pieces of emery cloth to the piston top), here's an easy way to get the squish to match the piston without the "proper tools"(the way most of my projects are done):

1. Spin the head in some more or less sketchy way - I mount an electric drill in my vice, fasten a sparkplug in the chuck and thread the head onto it.

2. Use a strip of emery cloth and a piston with the right radius, use the piston to push the emery cloth against the squish area while the head is spinning.

3. Check the "fit" frequently by pointing a flashlight up the plug hole and sliding the piston from side to side(kind of like rotating a ball), when there's no light until the piston clear's the squish area, you're done. Also, when they match up real good, if you apply a thin coat of oil on the squish area and place the piston on it, it really "sticks" - you can slide it around easily, but it resist's being pulled off.

4. Beer.

I also cut combustion chambers this way, spinning the head and using a ball carbide bit in a dremel to cut the shape I want.

[seattle smitty]

I don't understand the problem, since he had access to a lathe. Grind yourself a very sharp form-tool (profile-tool) to the shape of the piston crown. Put some bluing on the head, mount it on the cylinder, and lightly scribe a witness line where the bore meets the head (maybe you have to take a facing cut first, to get rid of some or all of the existing squishband). Remove the head and mount it on a faceplate, centered. Put the lathe in back gears, lowest speed, and slowly hand feed the form-tool into the squishband area until the cut just meets your witness mark. If the tool chatters a little, smooth the ripples via something like Adegnes' method, or live with it since you're going to have at least half a millimeter of squish clearance anyway, so how perfectly smooth does it have to be? Don't you make the radiused corners of combustion chambers with a form-tool?

But Adegnes, you certainly seem to be getting things done without a lathe!!:niceone:

(EDIT) There's a wonderful device, the Armstrong S-32 spring-shank parting tool holder, which is very effective in taking chatter out of cut-off operations in the lathe, reducing the tendency to hog in which can make parting a tense operation. I've never seen a spring-shank toolholder for form-tools . . . wonder how it would work . . . maybe I could make one, hmmm . . . .

[seattle smitty]

Frits, thank you for taking the time to comment on my various goofy ideas.:weird:



My ideal was, and is, to get rid of carbs altogether. And I certainly would not want to use two of them. Been there, done that.

Well, I like simple (I won't ever again own a car newer than mid-1960s!!). But for racing, other than endurance racing, I like horsepower even better than simplicity. Maybe you too; two pipes per cylinder is an added complication, right? The blower on a fuel dragster engine is a complication, but they hit 330mph in 1320 feet in less than four seconds (I know you know this, but I enjoy citing it just to marvel at it; when I was a kid, Garlits was only doing 185 . . . and THAT was amazing!!).

(QUOTE=Frits) ...Assuming that the engine will still breathe through that primary carburettor, even though there are more and perhaps easier ways for it to inhale. And even if it does, air speed through that primary carb will drop and the mixture will go lean. Yeah, you can correct that with the second carb; the one that I don't want. Remember KISS?[/QUOTE]

I watched the development of the record-setting four-carb Anzani fuel-burning parallel-twin (photo Pg. 1038, #15558)(Frits, I tried repeatedly to copy/paste that link, no luck, I'm sorry). Originally, a single big Vacturi carburetor fed the engine through a barrel-valve type rotary-valve (a big hole in the center of the center-main section of the crank, not uncommon in the old days), AND also via piston-ports.

When the engine was modified so that the Vacturi only fed the rotary-valve, and a second carb (Tillotson pumper from a kart) was added to feed the piston-ports, the engine gained 300 rpm against a given test load. Two more smaller kart carbs were added, feeding into the case through little kart reedblocks, and this added a further 100rpm against the load. Not only did this engine set straightaway record that was a marvel in its day, but later, with no change other than a modern electronic ignition replacing the Lucas magneto, it proved very reliable during a season of closed-course competition, winning race after race against simpler but less powerful engines.

Presumably each cylinder of that old brute was inhaling harder at some of those carburetors than others, as I certainly would expect for my idea, but the net result after re-tuning was positive.

I certainly take your other point about altering ports (I offered several possibilities), and know that trying to assert my little attempt at creativity by departing from proven port configurations which were painstakingly developed by experts is not likely to uncover anything new and exciting.

But I'm OLD, Frits. So far as I can tell after a long life, it's all meaningless, other than what meaning we choose to assign. Given that attitude, what better way to use some of the little time I have left than getting creative with 2-strokes, even if I turn them into scrap?!!

[TZ350]

A great read about plugs:-

Motorcycle ignition systems are the weak sisters of the world's spark generators. Bikes therefore need all the ignition help you can give them, which brings us to yet another useful group of special spark plugs: those with precious-metal electrodes. Conventional plugs have thick, blunt electrodes made of an alloy that's mostly iron, with a little nickel added to lend resistance to erosion. Special-electrode plugs have a side (ground) post made of ordinary nickel-iron alloy, but a center electrode of something much more costly - which may be a silver alloy, or gold-palladium, or platinum, etc. Bosch still favors platinum; Champion, ND and NGK offer plugs with electrodes in materials ranging from silver to tungsten. Gold-palladium seems to be the alloy that offers the best price/performance advantage; we don't entirely trust silver electrodes, which if overheated will over-expand and crack the insulator nose.

The rest of the artical can be seen here:- http://www.strappe.com/plugs.html

[husaberg]

A great read about plugs:-

Motorcycle ignition systems are the weak sisters of the world's spark generators. Bikes therefore need all the ignition help you can give them, which brings us to yet another useful group of special spark plugs: those with precious-metal electrodes. Conventional plugs have thick, blunt electrodes made of an alloy that's mostly iron, with a little nickel added to lend resistance to erosion. Special-electrode plugs have a side (ground) post made of ordinary nickel-iron alloy, but a center electrode of something much more costly - which may be a silver alloy, or gold-palladium, or platinum, etc. Bosch still favors platinum; Champion, ND and NGK offer plugs with electrodes in materials ranging from silver to tungsten. Gold-palladium seems to be the alloy that offers the best price/performance advantage; we don't entirely trust silver electrodes, which if overheated will over-expand and crack the insulator nose.

The rest of the artical can be seen here:- http://www.strappe.com/plugs.html

http://www.strappe.com/plugs.html

[Frits Overmars]

when I was a kid, Garlits was only doing 185 . . . But I'm OLD, Frits.You're old? I dare you! When I was in my late twenties, Don Garlits took part in a dutch dragrace event. His right rear tire hit a damp spot on the track and lost traction, so the left rear tire violently pushed the whole car into a right turn, right into the crush barriers where it landed upside down with Garlits trapped under it.
I helped pull the barriers away before a fire could break out. Not something you forget...

[F5 Dave]

A great read about plugs:-

Motorcycle ignition systems are the weak sisters of the world's spark generators. Bikes therefore need all the ignition help you can give them, which brings us to yet another useful group of special spark plugs: those with precious-metal electrodes. Conventional plugs have thick, blunt electrodes made of an alloy that's mostly iron, with a little nickel added to lend resistance to erosion. Special-electrode plugs have a side (ground) post made of ordinary nickel-iron alloy, but a center electrode of something much more costly - which may be a silver alloy, or gold-palladium, or platinum, etc. Bosch still favors platinum; Champion, ND and NGK offer plugs with electrodes in materials ranging from silver to tungsten. Gold-palladium seems to be the alloy that offers the best price/performance advantage; we don't entirely trust silver electrodes, which if overheated will over-expand and crack the insulator nose.

The rest of the artical can be seen here:- http://www.strappe.com/plugs.html
Why? Was it written in the late 70s?

[wobbly]

Would have been written when the norm was a HT winding to supply the cdi with power, when a B10EGV was a trick plug.
Trouble with this simple setup is that to get around 300V going to the CDI and then to the coil, the stator winding wire needs to be thin
to enable enough turns to generate that voltage.
The thinner the wire the more turns, but unfortunately a higher static resistance and the lower the current capability.
Thus the system is limited in its ability to supply power Watts ( Joules ) = V.A into the spark gap.
The amount of energy stored in the capacitor determines the burn duration, and thus the size of the initial flame kernel - generated after the initial arc over.
The race plugs we use now have Platinum fine wire ground electrodes ( that unshroud the firing tip ) plus Iridium centre electrodes.
This combination requires hugely less voltage to create arc over in the ionised gap, and the Iridium doesnt expand creating ceramic cracks
that then end in the insulator falling off.
Also the Platinum ground strap is laser welded to the body, fixing the other issue of these falling off as well.
Bulletproof, and simple to read.

[TZ350]

Why? Was it written in the late 70s?

Yes you are right, Gordon Jennings - reprinted from Cycle Magazine, October 1977.

I am working on a RG50 for myself and have been thinking about using 10mm diameter plugs instead of the usual 14mm ones. My interest in the 10mm plugs is the smaller disruption and intrusion into the very small 4cc combustion chamber of the 50 and the greater wasted volume around the insulator of the 14mm plug compared to the 10mm one.

I would be interested in any ones thoughts about whether a 10mm plug would be a performance advantage in a 50.

[husaberg]

Off topic

We have one of these
308059
it can be driven as a tiptronic with a paddle shift
yet it also runs as a CVT, I had no idea how it works at all.
308060
its hydraulically and computer controlled to give it the option of also having fixed gear positions based on how its being driven........not simple but intersting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kNtFu9kbEY
skip forward to 3 minutes....

[wobbly]

Once you generate the other 10 Hp thats hidden in the engine you havnt even thought about - then a small body plug may help to
give you maybe another 1/2 Hp.

[RAW]

Wobbly. Are you going to the Phillip Island Classic ?

[wobbly]

Na, really pissed as Trevs health is too suspect at this stage to go.
The Frepin is pretty much ready to rock but havnt touched it due to the other issue.
Might need to bolt in a young gun to help on the way to road racing glory.

[richban]

Might need to bolt in a young gun to help on the way to road racing glory.

How about an old gun. :innocent:

[Grumph]

A little advice from the gurus please...

i have a project on the stocks which will involve casting my own cases etc - not really a problem, but i have a couple of questions on engine architecture.
i want to do a horizontal single - I have a watercooled barrel so i don't think cooling will be a problem and i can always jacket the crankcase anyway.
But - my big question is, "orthodox" side rotary valve or on top of the cases with a downdraft carb ?

which leads to the other question - Downdraft jetski carbs, how tunable ? i've never used them but I'm aware others here have. Budget will not permit injection...

Comments please.

[husaberg]

I'm no guru but I do have a few pics
So this might save you a bit of time Yoda claus
308080

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=303537&d=1413067504
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=303536&d=1413067502
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=303535&d=1413067501
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=303534&d=1413067499
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=303533&d=1413067498
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=303524&d=1413067484


or
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=303503&d=1413067365

or
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=307837&d=1420961298
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=307832&d=1420961294
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=307833&d=1420961295
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=307834&d=1420961295

I used to ride a bucket that a mate done with a huge Keihin jet ski carb went very well but had issues over fueling on the overrun....they pump fuel regardless of throttle position. Jennings had a fix for it back in the 70's
Rob has a copy of it I think.

as for reed you could do a Rumi style with a fairly conventional downdraft carb in reverse.
http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww347/sukkyyakky3/Rumi%20Bike%20Spaan/Scannen0031-1.jpg

[Grumph]

OK, thanks Husa. Yes, some nice work there - but what are they ? I see no identification as to what the motors are. And all appear to be conventional side rotary valve. Point taken re the pumper carbs. I may be able to get my hands on an Ibea - any good Wob ?

Some snow as in the pic would be very welcome at present...

[Flettner]

OK, thanks Husa. Yes, some nice work there - but what are they ? I see no identification as to what the motors are. And all appear to be conventional side rotary valve. Point taken re the pumper carbs. I may be able to get my hands on an Ibea - any good Wob ?

Some snow as in the pic would be very welcome at present...

Rear RV is best, but I would look at the 24/7 type reed valve system, appears to work well and no drive needed.

[TZ350]

Page 1090 ......

Links Posted because I was asked about the det sensor and temp data logger.


297425

Hi F5 I have a four channel temperature data logger and intend to pretty much do what you suggest if I can figure out how to work the logger software. If you have a source for light but high temp (250-350 C) K type thermocouple wire I would love to know.



Hi Neal, the detector/amplifier I got of Ebay comes with lights and I currently use an optional extra output to signal the ignition to retard when there is detonation. I recently got another detector with two extra outputs, one for the ignition retard and another for a det counter. I have not got around to trying the det counter yet.

294223

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Knock-gauge-for-detonation-sensor-klopfsensor-NEW-/181309925670?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item2a36e9e926&vxp=mtr

If you have an amplifier/detector like the one I got of Ebay the very left green light will be on when the ignition is on and then you tune it so that you get a strong second green light when your starting a dyno pull on WOT and the middle orange lights should just start to come on when your at max power, and you will not miss the very bright right hand red light when there is deto.

You have to tune it because cylinders are different diameters and therefore deto has a different frequencie on a big cylinder compared to a smaller diameter one. If your getting one of these, don't forget to get it with the optional extra wires out for switching the ignition, det counter etc other wise you will only get a box with lights.

A head bolt is probably best, For a V twin Twin .... get another knock sensor from pick a part and wire them in parallel that way you will see deto on either cylinder otherwise go for the known troublesome one.


294192294193

Posted because I was recently asked about the det sensor I used. I earthed one of the two wires.

Probably does not matter which. As knock sensors usually only have one wire I guess they are earthed through the brass part of the body. So I am not sure if you need to earth one wire or if there are two sensors in this unit to cover a wider range of frequencies. Anyway mine worked with one of the wires earthed.


In the interests of science I have brought a data logger and 4 channel thermocouple interface from europerformance http://www.europerformance.co.nz/ who are a certified distributor for Innovate Motorsports and XT Racing and also carry other performance and race parts.

291648

Pocket Data Logger $95 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=677818916

291647 http://www.europerformance.co.nz/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=84

Thermocouple interface $145 ... http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=677819590



286854286853

Det Sensor


270747

I have just received another Knock Gauge, this one has two extra outputs. http://www.knockgauge.eu/content/blogcategory/22/41/

YouTube links showing the Knock Gauge in action.

The two green lights, the orange warning light then you see the red det light. http://youtu.be/aZkZR-JBr_E and http://youtu.be/vFoZyw_sHmA

Like last time, one that goes to ground for signaling the IgniTec to retard and a new one that pulses from 0V to +5V each time the Knock Gauge sees a detonation event.

The Curtis event counter can then count the detonations. Now I have the makings of a det sensor, ignition retarder and det counter.

This post links back to various cheap counters that could be used with the Knock Gauge.


The Trumeter 7111 is no longer stocked by RS but they do have something similar.

269009

703TR002N-512D RS part number 183-5952 $63.50 ... 5-12V and less than 10mA so easily self powered and at 500Hz fast enough to count all deto events as seen by the Knock Gauge or similar, as 200Hz in a 2-Stroke equals 12,000 rpm.

269008

And here is something if you want to try your hand at making a complete det counter for your self.

269011

RS part number 185-6090 $45.30

You could box this along with an amp or frequency filter from Jaycar and make you own little compact det counter.

269012

Electrical specs.

269014

Two different ways to go, with an amp you would count the high amplitude deto peaks or you could use a band or high pass frequency filter and count whatever passes through it.


Relocated the knock sensor. I found some steel head bolts and faced one off, then drilled and tapped it. And made a standoff that was carefully faced off as the knock sensor likes to be securely mounted on a very flat surface. The black goop (silicon glue) on the blue wire is there as a strain relief and hopefully it will stop the vibration breaking the wire where it is attached to the copper head fin.


266445




Good luck with the Deto sensing TZ. I like the little warning instrument!

Here's how I mounted my sensor. I drilled-tapped an old head bolt and screwed a stud.

263051263052

My sensor has a PN 0-261-231-001, what's yours?
According to this http://www.phormula.co.uk/KnockCalculator.aspx , deto freq for 56mm bore should be 10.2kHz.
According to Bosch datasheets for PN -047 (http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/en-US/literature/en-US/Knock_Sensor_KS-R_Datasheet_51_en_2779074187.pdf) & -120 (http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/pdf/sensors/knock/KS-P.pdf), sensors are able to catch frequencies from 1 to 20 kHz.
I assume all Bosch sensors can sense knock within this range (?)

edit: As for the pick-up voltage, I think it won't be more than +-10V. I had a voltage test yesterday with a data acquisition device in real time! I spinned the crank by hand and recorder the voltage waveform from the pick-up in the PC. As RPM increase, amplitude (and freq of course) of the pulses increase - by hand-spinning it didn't exceed 3~3.5 VAC. Sure it was a lot of fun to watch! :D

[speedpro]

Wobbly, I hear your pain

[husaberg]

OK, thanks Husa. Yes, some nice work there - but what are they ? I see no identification as to what the motors are. And all appear to be conventional side rotary valve. Point taken re the pumper carbs. I may be able to get my hands on an Ibea - any good Wob ?

Some snow as in the pic would be very welcome at present...

The top ones are a set made using cad then 3d printed in plastic to check then cnc'd they are for a ktm50 cylinder stolen from a thread on pitlane "self designed 50cc" http://www.pit-lane.biz/t3187-50cc-self-designed-50cc-race-engine
can't remember if the gearbox was Honda or Derbi or am6. but it looks Honda MB or CR80 early.

later

- rotary inlet with 32mm carb
- self designed crankcase (will be CNC machined in the near future)
- main components (crank, gearbox, clutch and so on) from Derbi Euro 3 engine
- cylinder from KTM
- battery ignition and water pump

Then the single pic I forget but Frits won't have...:msn-wink:

Then Keidler (gee Greg those didn't need a name as they had names on them)

Then Rumi.

oh one I missed. ....Emot experimental?
308091
I like this one as it is based on circles and with the horizontal cylinder, it can be seemingly made slimmer than with an upright cylinder due to the rv inlet being a head of the primary rather than on top of it.

[Tim Ey]

The top ones are a set made using cad then 3d printed in plastic for a ktm50 cylinder the are from a thread on pitlane self designed 50cc.
can't remember if the gearbox was Honda or Derbi or am6. but it looks Honda MB or CR80 early


It was a Derbi Senda gearbox :-)
An awesome project indeed.

Cheers!

[wobbly]

The Rumi used a Keihin FCR 4T carb that can be run all but vertical, the jets are the same as a normal PWK etc
Mikuni do a similar flat slide carb with a horizontal bowl,but pumper carbs can be made to work very well as every part of the system is adjustable
like the lever height and pop off pump pressure etc.
Ibea flat slide with 3 jets is the real shit as they flow well and are fully tweakable in every respect - especially if its a rare ( expensive as hell ) flat slide..
The only issue is that they need a fairly big bore around the throttle plate and a small venturi in front of that - unless an aux venturi is fitted, then the flow capability is compromised.

The rear RV ( top ) is the elegant solution but I hate the usual right angle belt drive setup that many use after seeing a video of one running
and during a dyno test the belt goes completely spastic at several rpm bands - so how often would that occur in a 30 lap final.
I am doing one at the moment with a simple straight belt on the side behind the ignition and a right angle cylkro gear drive behind the RV.

[Grumph]

The Rumi used a Keihin FCR 4T carb that can be run all but vertical, the jets are the same as a normal PWK etc
Mikuni do a similar flat slide carb with a horizontal bowl,but pumper carbs can be made to work very well as every part of the system is adjustable
like the lever height and pop off pump pressure etc.
Ibea flat slide with 3 jets is the real shit as they flow well and are fully tweakable in every respect.
The only issue is that they need a fairly big bore around the throttle plate and a small venturi in front of that - unless an aux venturi is fitted, then the flow capability is compromised.

The rear RV ( top ) is the elegant solution but I hate the usual right angle belt drive setup that many use after seeing a video of one running
and during a dyno test the belt goes completely spastic at several rpm bands - so how often would that occur in a 30 lap final.
I am doing one at the moment with a simple straight belt on the side behind the ignition and a right angle cyclo drive behind the RV.

Thanks Wob. Belts - I remember Dick Hurdeman telling me he had to allow huge valve to piston on the BMS Ducatis as the timing varied to a scary amount when strobed on the Dyno. The Britten had similar probs so twisted belt isn't desirable...
Flettner - I'm stuck with a conventional rotary valve barrel and have no desire whatsoever to cast my own thanks...relevant quote which I'm sure Frits is familiar with - "the first concept of superior principle is always defeated by the perfected example of established practice". Or as Mike Sinclair put it - "you only need a 5% improvement, not a revolution"

[Peter1962]

The Rumi used a Keihin FCR 4T carb that can be run all but vertical, the jets are the same as a normal PWK etc
Mikuni do a similar flat slide carb with a horizontal bowl,but pumper carbs can be made to work very well as every part of the system is adjustable
like the lever height and pop off pump pressure etc.
Ibea flat slide with 3 jets is the real shit as they flow well and are fully tweakable in every respect - especially if its a rare ( expensive as hell ) flat slide..
The only issue is that they need a fairly big bore around the throttle plate and a small venturi in front of that - unless an aux venturi is fitted, then the flow capability is compromised.

The rear RV ( top ) is the elegant solution but I hate the usual right angle belt drive setup that many use after seeing a video of one running
and during a dyno test the belt goes completely spastic at several rpm bands - so how often would that occur in a 30 lap final.
I am doing one at the moment with a simple straight belt on the side behind the ignition and a right angle cylkro gear drive behind the RV.

Cylkro gear, that was the brand that Frits advised for the RSA also. Too bad aprilia did not follow the advise.

Do you intend to use this on a kart engine or is it for a MX engine ?

[husaberg]

The rear RV ( top ) is the elegant solution but I hate the usual right angle belt drive setup that many use after seeing a video of one running
and during a dyno test the belt goes completely spastic at several rpm bands - so how often would that occur in a 30 lap final.
I am doing one at the moment with a simple straight belt on the side behind the ignition and a right angle cylkro gear drive behind the RV.


Cylkro gear, that was the brand that Frits advised for the RSA also. Too bad aprilia did not follow the advise.

?

Is that what the Mihindra had.....?

Reply to myself well it could be the Mahindra............
i found these pics
<img src="http://i48.servimg.com/u/f48/15/88/46/22/img_1714.jpg" height="280px"/><img src="http://i48.servimg.com/u/f48/15/88/46/22/img_1611.jpg" height="280px"/><img src="http://i48.servimg.com/u/f48/15/88/46/22/img_1613.jpg" height="280px"/>
<img src="http://i48.servimg.com/u/f48/15/88/46/22/img_1718.jpg" height="420px"/><img src="http://i48.servimg.com/u/f48/15/88/46/22/img_1720.jpg" height="420px"/>

[seattle smitty]

but I hate the usual right angle belt drive setup that many use after seeing a video of one running
and during a dyno test the belt goes completely spastic at several rpm bands - so how often would that occur in a 30 lap final.
I am doing one at the moment with a simple straight belt on the side behind the ignition and a right angle cylkro gear drive behind the RV.

How much of the belt-drive shakes are due to the fact that the disk is way out of balance? Lots of racing outboards (Konigs) had rotary-valve drive-belts that made a right-angle turn, twice. They worked, for our short sprint-type racing, but never seemed like a very good solution for exactly the reason you describe. www.konny.cz (Konny bought the Konig tooling after Dieter Konig was killed in an ultralight flying accident).

Cylkro gears are new to me. As they seem to have a sliding action, rather than the mostly rolling interface of what used to be considered "proper" gears, do they always require lubrication, even for light loadings? To drive a rotary valve disk, would a dry, heat-cured moly coating keep them happy? For a single, could you make a disk with two windows and turn it at half-speed, eliminating the imbalance of the disk?

[Grumph]

As far as i can tell, Cylkro gears are simply the old contrate and pinion right angle set. As such,the problem in this application anyway is that you can't get a 1:1 ratio easily - or at all. So somewhere in the drive train to the disc there would have to be a step up. I'm assuming Wob's doing it with the belt stage.

As far as driving the disc half speed goes, Helmut Fath did that but also doubled up the discs with a contra rotating pair so as to get the required rapid opening.Complicated but apparently worth a couple of HP.

Given the loads involved driving the disc, I may have a look at plastic bevels....

[wobbly]

The Cylkro right angle drive gearset is designed such that it allows quite a big positional variation of the pinion shaft in one plane.
This is due to the face gear being like a rack, it matters little where on the rack the pinion sits, as long as there is tooth engagement.
As far as the ratio is concerned I have already ordered a 1:1 set off the shelf from the factory in Frits land, so thats no issue.
This means the axial sliding clearance on the RV blade can be accommodated without a splined drive, as the shaft with the pinion can simply float.
The gear drive will, I believe need lube,but as the side belt drive is the latest Gen 3 Syncroflex steel belted type it can be run in oil, but the small amount of liquid required will be flung all over
the place inside a cavity that drains vertically back down toward the gears and away from the belt.But sure once is all proven, maybe a molly coating would suffice with such light power loading of the teeth.
Think about what engines have the crank vertical.
The big issue with the usual twisted belt scenario is the tiny drive gears needed to fit behind the RV under the big inlet port.
They are under the recommended bend radius for even a small pitch HTD belt, so there are serious vibration harmonics running up and down the quite long runs
between pulleys - in my side drive the toothed pulleys are close to 50 PCD on 82 centres, so with an adjuster on the slack side there is very little unsupported belt run.
If the belt drive proves unreliable it can simply be replaced with 3 gears - but not my solution of choice .

[F5 Dave]

So this sounds cool. What is it going into Mista?

[wobbly]

Im just finishing off the manufacturing drawings now - i will ask if its appropriate to disclose anything and to what level on here.

[Grumph]

fair enough on the Cylkro gearset Wob - if you're happy great. I'd be interested to know the number of teeth on that set though as at a 1:1 ratio the pinion has to be quite big to avoid excessive angularity at the tooth face - which then brings a large contrate gear into the packaging picture...

Hmm, Vertical shaft eh, doubt if it's a lawnmower...Moving into Smitty's area of interest are we ?

[F5 Dave]

Gyro would make sense perhaps.

[Peter1962]

The Cylkro right angle drive gearset is designed such that it allows quite a big positional variation of the pinion shaft in one plane.
This is due to the face gear being like a rack, it matters little where on the rack the pinion sits, as long as there is tooth engagement.
As far as the ratio is concerned I have already ordered a 1:1 set off the shelf from the factory in Frits land, so thats no issue.
This means the axial sliding clearance on the RV blade can be accommodated without a splined drive, as the shaft with the pinion can simply float.
The gear drive will, I believe need lube,but as the side belt drive is the latest Gen 3 Syncroflex steel belted type it can be run in oil, but the small amount of liquid required will be flung all over
the place inside a cavity that drains vertically back down toward the gears and away from the belt.But sure once is all proven, maybe a molly coating would suffice with such light power loading of the teeth.
Think about what engines have the crank vertical.
The big issue with the usual twisted belt scenario is the tiny drive gears needed to fit behind the RV under the big inlet port.
They are under the recommended bend radius for even a small pitch HTD belt, so there are serious vibration harmonics running up and down the quite long runs
between pulleys - in my side drive the toothed pulleys are close to 50 PCD on 82 centres, so with an adjuster on the slack side there is very little unsupported belt run.
If the belt drive proves unreliable it can simply be replaced with 3 gears - but not my solution of choice .


So a cylkro gearset + Continental Conti Synchroflex AT Gen III timing belt, that should be bullet proof.
If that were te be mounted on a 50cc, like a derbi Euro 3 engine which has an oil pump, that pump could be used to lubricate the gearset and timing belt.

But I would love to see your construction on a modern enduro/Mx 300 cc engine like the TM 300 with its electronic powervalve. Then throw away the Keihin and replace with a lectron 38 equiped with a TPS and an ignitech programmable ignition.
In Germany, a ktm 380 already prooved that it can win in Supermoto against factory 450 4 strokes. I wonder what a modern 300 with rotary valve would do against those 4 strokes.

[Muciek]

Question about pipe flange.
I would like to reduce the pipe flange diameter entering cylinder because current is way too big compared to exh window. Could I use reduction like on drawing? Changing diameter of duct is impossible because of it shape ( impossible to screw in some stuffers or weld ). Would this make any sense to do it?
Drawing aspect is in cross section looking from cylinder top.

308144

[Flettner]

Mallory metal, now I can start putting the crank together for the sleeve engine. It needs a lot of weight to balance the reciprocating parts. Still weighting for two more lumps.

[wobbly]

The Cylkro gearset in 1:1 ratio I am using is around 30mm diameter for both the face and pinion gear with 14 teeth - 1.5 Module.
The technology is well proven - Audi use them in the transfer gears of the 4 wheel drive cars.
Having the pinion able to move without introducing backlash, as a normal bevel setup would,made it a no brainer as it enabled
me to delete a splined shaft and hub for the rear RV to float on.
The Aprilia RSA was a nightmare to setup the bevel drive, needing dial gauges to set clearance etc,this thing is engaged perfectly at all times
as long as the shaft centres are CNC machined accurately into the case - fit and forget.

Re the Ex stub insert - any way you can do it will work well, as long as the area reduction can be blended smoothly the performance increase
is pretty dramatic.
Also gives you another variable to design the pipe around, as the increase in top end and overev can be taken for free, or this then enables the pipe
to be more optimised to better mid with no loss in top end power.

[peewee]

progress is alittle slow but still going. found a combination of parts that should work good together. suzuki, arctic cat, ktm and a couple bits from yamaha :laugh:. cut this manually and its a pain in the ass. need to get a mini milling machine or something

[wobbly]

I have permission to post some pics of the rear RV engine, so here is a few to start.

[Grumph]

thanks Wob. Out of curiousity, how close was it to simply taking your right angle drive for the disc straight off the crank ? The disc center can't be far outside the main bearing on that side.

Edit - on closer inspection, no room.

[wobbly]

I tried many variations of concept before finally hitting on the belt/cylkro idea.
KISS being the buzzword, but severe lack of room due to use of a stock crank forced some compromises, when trying to minimise the
number of bearings/seals/shafts and the real issues of how the hell do you assemble the thing and then keep oil in the right places.

[marsheng]

One of the advantages of a belt drive and disk is the timing can be changed with RPM.
I suppose you could do the same with a gear driven disk and a centrifugal weight arrangement. There can't be much power required to drive the disk so should be feesable .

[marsheng]

I have an interesting carbon band build up on the exhaust side of the head. A clear neat semi circle, about 0.15 mm thick. Just wondering what was the cause?

http://www.marshland.co.nz/ftp/MaicoBimota/Head.JPG
http://www.marshland.co.nz/ftp/MaicoBimota/Piston.JPG

[Frits Overmars]

One of the advantages of a belt drive and disk is the timing can be changed with RPM.By using a belt tensioner at either side of the belt and shifting them, like Porsche did on their first variable cam drive? It works, but the obtainable angle variation is limited.


There can't be much power required to drive the disk.That's what Derbi's technical director supposed when he overruled Jan Thiel and gave the Derbi DRVE (nowadays known as the Aprilia RSA125) an 8 mm disk drive shaft. They're still counting the DNFs.
The torque required to overcome the disk friction is small. The torque on the disk drive when a rider downshifts, depends on the rider. Some have very heavy feet.


I suppose you could do the same with a gear driven disk and a centrifugal weight arrangement.It's been done but the benefits did not outweigh the complication.
308174308175

I think Flettners variable disk cover will be a better bet: more reliable, more versatile and simpler.

[breezy]

Mallory metal, now I can start putting the crank together for the sleeve engine. It needs a lot of weight to balance the reciprocating parts. Still weighting for two more lumps.

Have you considerd having the sleeve valve just to close the exhaust port as required and using a turbo or supercharger . then forget about using the return exhaust pulse and its associated problems?

[wobbly]

The carbon build up is exactly the same issue as so many people get with KZ2 kart engines.
Its why the piston always gets detonated on the boost port side.
Carbon builds up where the local temp is low enough not to burn it away, deto starts where the local temp is highest.
As the piston rocks over TDC one side approaches the head alot closer than the other
due to the rod angularity and thats why you see alot more carbon on one side - the much different MSV and temp gradient at work.
If you remember back to the old offset chamber design that Dr Erchlich sold Yamaha, it even more so had a huge MSV on one side and none on the other - and
it detoed like crazy where the end gases were trapped in the high MSV zone ( more MSV = more local turbulence = faster flame speed = advanced effective timing in that sector).

[wobbly]

Just been sent this link to a new Britten video.
Some bloody cool stickers on that bike eh.

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/black-beauty-lives-britten-v1000s-hit-track/

[marsheng]

The carbon build up is exactly the same issue as so many people get with KZ2 kart engines.
Its why the piston always gets detonated on the boost port side.


What can I do about it ?

Thanks Wallace.

[wobbly]

The end gasses trapped in the squishband are being overheated - is the squish tapered slightly the wrong way ie
does it close down toward the chamber centre.
If not, then the only way to help is to increase the squish depth slightly by tapering outward a little - 0.2mm would probably do it.
You could then increase the width to get back the MSV.

[Flettner]

Have you considerd having the sleeve valve just to close the exhaust port as required and using a turbo or supercharger . then forget about using the return exhaust pulse and its associated problems?

Yes, possibly, but first I would like to get this crank case, 24/ 7 reed version running.
I've got the patterns finished, just gearing up to run my own furnace to cast them. Get other people involved and it always ends up a cock up.

[TZ350]

:doh: I think I have shot myself in the foot again.

After the poor showing at Taumarunui where the bike would not come back on the throttle I thought I had better run it up on the dyno with the Ecotrons Procal tuning program displaying the Gauge monitoring screen in the hope of seeing what was going on.

The bike would start and trickle out onto the track easily enough and it would fly like a cut cat when it was shown a bit of stick. But it had two real bad faults, at about 8,000 rpm it would jump around like a demented kangaroo and when it was shut off at high rpm it would not come back on the throttle until the rpm had dropped under 7,000 rpm or so.

I thought it may be to rich/lean at lower throttle settings on over run at high rpm or it needed some adjustment to the throttle blip virtual fuel pump. But no amount of Map fiddling improved things.

Sorry about the jerky video but that is the bike shaking me around as I was recording the gauges. Its not dangerous to run a bike up full tit on the dyno by yourself with one hand while trying to record video with the other - yeer right its not dangerous.

Top left gauge is rpm and it tops out close to 13,000. Top right is the TPS and the two gages on the bottom right are for the injectors. Injector 1 to the left, Injector 2 to the right.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/tXP6aUKbzcE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

You can see injector 1 increasing in pulse width until it switches over to injector 2 at about 8,000 rpm, just where it starts to jump about. Then Injector two stays at 1.7ms right up to 13,000 ish rpm.

Close the throttle and injector 2 stays at 1.7ms until the rpm drops back below 7,000rpm and the system switches back to the smaller injector 1 at which point the engine will respond to the throttle again.

On over run above the changeover point the engine won't respond to small and medium throttle openings but at higher rpm it will jump back into life when given full throttle.

Previously I had been wanting to get as much fuel in as possible in the shortest amount of time and I had made injector 2 as large as possible and injector 1 was much smaller and only for starting and off pipe running below 8,000 rpm. The smaller the injector the more adjustable it is with the fuel map.

Both injectors have a minimum open time of 1.7ms and what I think is happening is that the big injector is too big and even at its minimum open time it drowns the motor at anything less than near full throttle.

And the jerking at 8,000 rpm is the EFI being confused about whether to use the injector that is to small or the injector that is to big.

I think Injector 2 needs to be smaller so it gets held open over a greater range of time from say 1.7ms at small throttle openings and high rpm to 3.5ms for full throttle at high rpm.

At the moment the EFI works well with injector 1 but it has no adjustment with injector 2, its all or nothing, actually injector two is virtually full on all the time above 8,000 rpm because it can't be run any slower than 1.7ms it needs more adjustment and we can only get that by going to a smaller injector because a smaller injector would need to be held open for longer than the minimum 1.7ms.

To get the greatest range of adjustment out of a fuel injector you need one that is only just big enough to do the job. I think I have been running one that is way too big for the job and even on minimum open time it is drowning the motor on overrun.

Instead of thinking big injector to get loads in quickly I think to get best throttle response I need to think smallest injector possible that is only just big enough to do the job at max fuel demand (max torque).

Tomorrow I will swap out the big injector 2 for a smaller one and see how that goes, here is hoping .... :)

[Peter1962]

Wobbly, do you think that on a MX engine of 300 cc like the TM or KTM it would be beneficial to adopt a rear RV like in your current project ? To be mounted in the location where the reed valve is now. The comparison made by Jan on the reed valve derbi and the derbi equiped with a rear RV were largely in favour of the latter. I wonder if the same conclusion would be valid for a 300 cc engine that is not tuned to the extreme like the derbi was. What do you think of this ?

[Sketchy_Racer]

Sounds like a valid hypothesis there TZ350, hope it works for you. That damn EFI is a cruel beast, just constantly teasing!

[marsheng]

[QUOTE=marsheng;1130820940]The carbon build up is exactly the same issue as so many people get with KZ2 kart engines.
Its why the piston always gets detonated on the boost port side.

Just measured the compression volume. 19.5 with a 1.2 mm squish. This gives a CR of 8.4. From your calcs should be CR of 7.6, head volume of 21.8 cm3 with a 0.9 squish. I have increased the head volume this evening. Hope that works better.

Cheers Wallace

[Frits Overmars]

Instead of thinking big injector to get loads in quickly I think to get best throttle response I need to think smallest injector possible that is only just big enough to do the job at max fuel demand (max torque).Using a smaller injector will mean injecting over a longer period of time per cycle; more of the inhaled air will be carrying fuel into the crankcase, so the mixture is already more homogeneous before it is stirred by the crankshaft. That's good.
Your remark 'max fuel demand (max torque)' put me on the wrong track for a moment. The fuel demand is proportional to the generated power, not to the torque.
But the fuel demand per cycle is, as you say, indeed proportional to the torque.

[Frits Overmars]

Wobbly, do you think that on a MX engine of 300 cc like the TM or KTM it would be beneficial to adopt a rear RV like in your current project ? To be mounted in the location where the reed valve is now. The comparison made by Jan on the reed valve derbi and the derbi equiped with a rear RV were largely in favour of the latter. I wonder if the same conclusion would be valid for a 300 cc engine that is not tuned to the extreme like the derbi was. What do you think of this ?That 300cc MX engine will be able to produce lots of power with a rear RV or indeed with any RV. But that won't be any good for MX; modern 300 cc MX bikes are too strong already for 99% of their riders. If you want power, try an RV (or try 24/7; that is much simpler to implement on a reed valve engine). But if you want to win MX-races, work on your suspension and your throttle response.

[TZ350]

That damn EFI is a cruel beast, just constantly teasing!

Thanks Sketchy, I have known girls like that, kept me enthralled for ages.... :laugh:



Instead of thinking big injector to get loads in quickly I think to get best throttle response I need to think smallest injector possible that is only just big enough to do the job at max fuel demand (max torque).Your remark 'max fuel demand (max torque)' put me on the wrong track for a moment. The fuel demand is proportional to the generated power, not to the torque. But the fuel demand per cycle is, as you say, indeed proportional to the torque.

Yes, thanks I can see now that there are actually two maximums, maximum squirt (at peak torque) and maximum fuel flow which is squirt times rpm (at peak power). I guess the two maximums can occur together or close together if you have a peaky engine and max fuel flow might not necessarily be at max rpm (ie lower in the over rev area).

[seattle smitty]

Wobbly, this doesn't apply to your project, and I offer it only as a point of interest or for some future application. If you look at the rather grainy photo of the powerhead on that www.konny.cz website, observe the two bearings that the rotary-valve drive belt runs over to make its right angle turn. In the original Konig design, these two bearings were on a common shaft, thus parallel to each other. Some years later, bigger carburetors were employed, and for the belt to clear them this required that those bearings be mounted independently of each other so that they could be splayed out and no longer parallel to each other. You might be able to see this in the photo.

This is boats, not bikes, but one engine-builder came up with a variable-timing valve for the Konigs, centrifugal controlled, and the guys he gave it to said it did have some effect on lap times.

Again, do you think that the great imbalance of the steel disk makes a difference to belt life (these belts had to be set quite tight), and could this be improved by making the disks of titanium or some reinforced plastic (as long as necessary stiffness is maintained)? Of course, a half-speed disk, where it could be used, would eliminate the balance issue, and have less inertia as well.

By damn, am I ever learning a lot from you, Wobbly!! All of you guys, for that matter!

[FastFred]

308209308208

Would not worry to much TeeZee, even the best have struggled with 2T EFI ...

http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/bimota/bimota_500%20v%20due.htm

It ran like a pig, then overheated , then stopped. So I sent it to a man in the know - 2 stroke god Mark Brown from Nottingham, to be adapted to have oil injectors moved to the throttle bodies to run like a normal two stroke. Mark Brown completely sorted the bike from top to bottom. I also had the water cooling system adapted to stop it over heating, changed the ECU units as faulty ones came with bike, swapped the fuel pump as it was gunged up and not working correctly and put 3 different speedos on it until I found one that worked.

The first production models arrived in 1997 and right away major problems became apparent. Yes, they passed emissions testing and the bike was 50 state legal - but the fuel injection system was not at all sorted out, and the bikes were almost completely un-rideable. Throttle response was terrible, the engine hunted badly at steady speeds, and power delivery was extremely violent and only came on at the top of the rev range. While it was light and quick, power wasn't up to snuff among the crop of high powered super bikes that began to emerge in the late 90s. Aside from being despicable to ride it also had electrical faults, a tendency to foul spark plugs, and had some major mechanical faults that led to piston and crank seizures.

But all was not lost. One of the project engineers, Piero Caronni, bought the remaining bikes and spares when the company went into receivership. He subsequently began modifying and fixing the issues, culminating in the Evoluzione 03, Evoluzione 04 and Edizione Finale models - introduced in 2003 and 2004. All used carburetors and modified engines with much improved reliability. Power was up as well, to 120 hp for the 03 and 130hp for the 04 and Finale. These sorted bikes have a strong cult following, with dedicated owners who are quick to dismiss the bad reputation surrounding these machines.

308210

Maybe this lot will have better luck.

Anyway I am sure you will get it figured out, I have bet money on it.

In fact there are a bunch of us taking bets.

308211

[wobbly]

The rotary valve we will use in this new engine is made of carbon/kevlar so its inertia and out of balance is minimal - its even being made in the good ole USA.
Frits is right about the RV be it on the side or out the back - but using the sliding plate idea on the closing side of the inlet port gives a much better throttle connection
to enable easyer riding of an overpowered beast.
In fact Neal and I have discussed the next step to this design, being a pair of plates geared together that would close both sides of the port like a scissor blade action.
Thus equally reducing the open and close points simultaneously - and that leads onto the logical conclusion you could close the port altogether, deleting the throttle action within the carb or Injector.

In the project I am working on, the new cylinder has a servo controlled 2 stage power valve that like an Aprilia will be working up to around 12,000 rpm, well into the powerband used
when negotiating corners.
Thus using the slider pipe should only be needed off the line to get up onto the plane, and not at the bottom of the powerband mid corner.

[jonny quest]

TZ, can you balance injector sizes so they're both always functioning, but either or is working harder than the other when need be?

[Haufen]

Is texturing the surface of the RV housing beneficial for performance, or durability of the disc, or both? How much can be gained there in terms of power or lifetime?

[wobbly]

In an old 125 TM125MX I did for open karts the crank only had 0.5mm clearance within the case.
I machined the side faces and the OD of the crank pocket to make it 1.5mm and at the same time removed 5mm from the reed face.
This got the case volume back to where it was.
Reducing the boundary layer friction by doing this was worth 0.5 to 1 Hp at the sprocket.
Never had the chance to do a back to back on a RV but every fast one I have seen has some sort of patterned cut on both faces.
I did once have the faces treated with a PTFE piston coating on a 20,000 rpm RV engine and this reduced the disc and case wear to nil.

[TZ350]

308248

Ok after months in the wilderness I finally figured it out. I was right about needing smaller injectors.

So it looks like, to maximize tune-ability you need to minimize the injector size......... in hindsight its so obvious really .... :facepalm:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/0lMT2GLtKsg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

Now that I have smaller injectors fitted, on the bottom right gauge you can see the number 2 injection pulse width increasing and decreasing and it is coming back onto the throttle much better now that the EMS has some pulse width range to play with.

Not perfect yet but very very promising.

[richban]

Yes its tuning related.

The ram air on the NSR300 is working strong. But maybe some sort of mesh needs to be added. Or this could happen again.

Bird sucked through the front intake and into the carb. Poor thing. Not pretty.

Was not my 300. Happened on the other one today at Manfield.


308255308254

[bucketracer]

YBird sucked through the front intake and into the carb.

You dont see that everyday, might be a world first.

[bucketracer]

Ok after months in the wilderness I finally figured it out. I was right about needing smaller injectors. Looks like, that to maximize tune-ability you need to minimize the injector size......... its so obvious really .... :facepalm: Not perfect yet but very very promising.

Good work TeeZee, clever, very clever and 10 out of 10 for perseverance.

[RAW]

In an old 125 TM125MX I did for open karts the crank only had 0.5mm clearance within the case.
I machined the side faces and the OD of the crank pocket to make it 1.5mm and at the same time removed 5mm from the reed face.
This got the case volume back to where it was.
Reducing the boundary layer friction by doing this was worth 0.5 to 1 Hp at the sprocket.
Never had the chance to do a back to back on a RV but every fast one I have seen has some sort of patterned cut on both faces.
I did once have the faces treated with a PTFE piston coating on a 20,000 rpm RV engine and this reduced the disc and case wear to nil.

Wobbly, I wonder how long the PTFE coated cases would last, what sort of hours did the PTFE coated cases run for, is this something you are going to do again or would you use a more modern coating today
Cheers

[Grumph]

[QUOTE=wobbly;
Ibea flat slide with 3 jets is the real shit as they flow well and are fully tweakable in every respect - especially if its a rare ( expensive as hell ) flat slide..
The only issue is that they need a fairly big bore around the throttle plate and a small venturi in front of that - unless an aux venturi is fitted, then the flow capability is compromised.[/QUOTE]

Looks like i can get my hands on a 30mm Ibea which was used on a Parilla 100. Suitable in your opinion for a roadrace 100 ? From one of your old sparring partners back in the day, several alky Ibeas but this is the only petrol one he has.

[TZ350]

TZ, can you balance injector sizes so they're both always functioning, but either or is working harder than the other when need be?

Good idea but No, the Ecotrons software does not allow it.

[Bert]

Yes its tuning related.

The ram air on the NSR300 is working strong. But maybe some sort of mesh needs to be added. Or this could happen again.

Bird sucked through the front intake and into the carb. Poor thing. Not pretty.

Was not my 300. Happened on the other one today at Manfield.


308255308254

My bike went off song..... Still to early:shit:

[Frits Overmars]

I did once have the faces treated with a PTFE piston coating on a 20,000 rpm RV engine and this reduced the disc and case wear to nil.
Wobbly, I wonder how long the PTFE coated cases would last, what sort of hours did the PTFE coated cases run for, is this something you are going to do again or would you use a more modern coating today?Emot (www.emotracing.com (http://www.emotracing.com)) recently brought out all-synthetic rotary disk faces and covers, produced from Ertalyte TX (PTFE-filled polyethylenterephthalat); http://www.professionalplastics.com/professionalplastics/content/ErtalyteTXData.pdf). Wear and friction are ideal, as is heat insulation; ignition pickups love it.

[seattle smitty]

Wobbly, I wonder how long the PTFE coated cases would last, what sort of hours did the PTFE coated cases run for, is this something you are going to do again or would you use a more modern coating today
Cheers

RAW, for a CHEAP, low-tech, effective coating you can do yourself, for an aluminum rotary valve case and numerous other purposes, look at the pages around P. 1021 (#15312) for KG Industries "Gun Kote" heat-cured spray-on moly coating.


(EDIT) I keep hearing from others here that they've tried one or other baked moly coatings and that it "wears quickly." I'm guessing that they are applying a too-thin coating so that they can retain their normal clearances. The way to do it, however, is to start with enough extra clearance that you can put about a .002"/0.05mm coating on the part. The first half-thousandth burnishes down very quickly, but after that the remaining coating holds up rather well (depending on your use). If you do a bad job of coating, and have to remove the coating and start over, you'll find that's not so easy . . . . As for clearancing for coating, that's easy with rotary valve cases: you coat both the inside of the case and the mating surface of the case at the same time and automatically get about the right clearance. I don't argue that that various high-tech plastic coatings suggested here aren't better than the molycote; they surely are better, but this is very cheap, you do it yourself, and you can re-do it easily, as needed.


Poor little bird! Years ago a friend of mine was making a kilometer record run at Devil's Lake, on the Oregon coast. Lucky for him, he was running in one of the smaller stock classes, making 70-75mph, when a big seagull tried to cross the lake in front of him and didn't make it. That big bird was smashed against the forehead section of his helmet, and Bob said it nearly broke his neck and nearly knocked him out of the boat. Another guy I know, a Boeing engineer, used to operate the "chicken cannon," which fired chicken carcasses at the outside of mocked-up cockpits to test aircraft resistance to bird-strikes. He said the chickens frequently "won" . . . .

[F5 Dave]

Don't use frozen ones!
Meh old joke.

Seagulls are proper hard. I killed one at 50kph in the work van as a teen. I stopped and walked back to get it off the road, briefly entertaining the idea of leaving it on the bosses desk explaining the dent on the front of the van.

Halfway back to it The dead bird shook. Picked itself up and flew away. Sheesh.

[jasonu]

Yes its tuning related.

The ram air on the NSR300 is working strong. But maybe some sort of mesh needs to be added. Or this could happen again.

Bird sucked through the front intake and into the carb. Poor thing. Not pretty.

Was not my 300. Happened on the other one today at Manfield.


308255308254

Many moons ago Dave Diprose did back to back dyno runs with his TZR50. One with and one without a mesh screen covering the carb intake. No other changes. The screen cost HP, one of them IIRC.

[wobbly]

The coating I used on the RV screamer motor was for piston skirts and was done by HPC in Auckland.
This was a "proper" solid etched on coat, not the simple running in dry lube film type that wears away quickly.
It was still intact after a whole season of racing, with no wear on the surfaces, just some scratches around the port from no filter.
But I really like the idea of using a low friction material for the cover - and an insert in the case, easy to do with my Solid Modelling and Fletts CNC machine centre.

Re the Ibea carb - fast 50cc race engines are using 30mm carbs, so that wont be near big enough for a road racing 100cc.
In many applications I have seen of late one big issue seems to be the trouble around getting the intake tract dead straight.
There a several Keihin D slide downdrafts with steep intakes and horizontal bowls in the right size as well as Lectron/SmartCarbs that can be run very steep in the 34/36 bore size you need.
Having no bend in the manifold is an easy couple of Hp free, worth having if you are in the 30 Hp bracket ( or any bracket in reality )

[Tim Ey]

Talking about straight intakes:

I have a question to all the reed valve modificators and EndMod2T users out there, perhaps you, Wobbly? :-)

What kind of Area distrubution would you choose on a reed valve engine from carb to the petals?
Let us say we have a carb with 39,5mm at the slide, 40mm at the flange and a reed with an steamwise area of also 38mm.


Especially when you look on older engines like an RZ350 YPVS, the Reeds have a very big capacity right in the reed valve. I assume that not to be good.
Why? The Petal is opening when the pressure in the crankhouse is lower than the pressure before in the reed. So if the petal opens and a volume element of mixture travels through the reed into the crankhousing, the pressure drop is getting lower. If you have a big volume to feed from in the petal, the petal is closing right away...

The other extreme would be a really tight bottleneck right before the petals - to keep the flow velocity high right before the petals.

308270

308271
Like in this CR125 Boyesen-Reed.

What would you guys do?

Greetings from Germany :drinknsin
Tim

[wobbly]

The only good thing that the Boyesen reeds taught us was that the " stuffer " between the manifold exit and the reed tip exit was developed on
a flow bench to keep the flow area ( and thus the velocity ) virtually constant.
The stuffer takes into account that the reed width is generally alot wider than the entry diameter, and coincidentally the vertical height is reducing as the flow approaches the tips.
Filling in the sides with a well shaped stuffer insert keeps the area constant and directs the flow such that all the petals are opened equally by the same velocity.
What Boyesen did do was to direct the flow around the turn correctly to try and equalise the tip lifts.

One thing you need to realise though is that there is just as much positive pressure ratio developed on the intake side of the petals, from the sonic tuning of the intake length, as there
is a negative pressure ratio pulling flow thru from the case.

Here is an example of the very best setup I have done for the 30mm carb on a KZ2 - 125 engine.
This flows around 12% more air on a bench and makes around 1 1/2 Hp more than stock at peak, and near on 4 Hp at 14,000.
It divides the flow into 4 quadrants feeding each petal equally with the CNC insert,plus the plastic stuffer keeps the area constant right into the reed V.

[Frits Overmars]

....if the petal opens and a volume element of mixture travels through the reed into the crankhousing, the pressure drop is getting lower. It's even worse than you might imagine, Tim. And that goes for all reeds.
Experiment: take a sheet of paper between your finger tips and blow along it; the moving air will create a depression that will try to move the sheet towards the air stream.
The same thing happens inside a reed valve. As soon as air starts flowing, it creates a depression inside the reed cage which will try to suck the reeds towards each other. In short: the flow through the reed valve will try to close the reeds! Oh, the beauty of rotary valves...

[senso]

Interesting talk about reeds, some time ago I designed a couple stuffers for a YZ80 reed cage, but reading all this and my new SolidWorks skills I might re-visit the topic and redo the stuffers to aim from a more constant area transition than my older eyeballed sort of exponential diffuser.
I think I have not shown them yet:

308284
308285
308286

And another stupid question(sorry, I still have a lot of them to do :rolleyes: ), where can I find a sparkplug blueprint, I'm sort of designing a two part head/combustion chamber and for the love of my life I cant find a nice blueprint/diagram with all the dimensions for a common 2 stroke sparkplug.

Best regards.

[peewee]

The RZ/CPI has a severe down bend in the intake, thus the majority of the flow adheres to the roof and of course punches open the upper
reeds way more than the lowers ( made worse by the fact that the Boyesens are on the reed box floor ).
With a VF3 in place you can make a curved blade the same thickness as the VF divider at one end ( with a ball nose radius to fit over the leading edge )
tapering down to a small radius facing the carb.
By raising the leading edge of the blade you can equalise the upper and lower reed opening ( that is the flow ).
Easy to test with a vacuum cleaner hose connected to the exit ( or a leaf blower, or if you are really desperate the exhaust pipe on your car - been there done that ).
Of course the flow bench with a velocity pitot is the real go.
I did this on a CR250 on a kart and picked up 3Hp from memory.

instead of using a curved blade fitted to the divider, what about making a straight intake manifold, then use one of them new pwk carbs (like on the ktm 250/300) that are intended to be used in a forward sloping angle. was thinking about this idea and it would reduce and maybe eliminate the downward kink at the intake manifold/reed block junction. you can see these carbs can function at a fairly steep forward angle. all i would need is to make some straight or nearly straight intake manifolds. :headbang:

[seattle smitty]

. In short: the flow through the reed valve will try to close the reeds! Oh, the beauty of rotary valves...

Yet we might expect you to be the last person to say this, Frits!

Rotary valves are an almighty PITA to hang on an engine, and I greatly admire the imaginative ways people here resolve this, very cool stuff!! But you came up with the 24/7 concept; shouldn't that render all of this effort unnecessary??

I'm wondering if you have found in testing that as elegantly simple the 24/7 intake is as a concept, maybe it turns out to be a very hard thing to tune in practice. Yes? No? My uneducated guess is that your swing-away valve method of creating a 24/7 intake might make it hard to get the carburetor to work across the whole rpm range. That's why I liked the idea of splitting the job between two carbs, one primary carb (over a reedblock) that's drawing all the time, and a second carb (over the 24/7 intake tract) that is only open for and tuned for when the pipe goes to work. Maybe a little more complex mechanically, but maybe simpler to tune . . . ???

[TZ350]

308310 308311

Team ESE are getting serious about RG50's and the F5 class.

There is a RG/RS setup and a RG50 as a donkey for engine development.

The aim is to build and campaign an original RG50 engine cylinder and head (with insert) that is better than the current crop of European 50's with their after market cylinders.

308314

We are near 14hp with the RG50 now and expect to see 16 or 17 after a bit more development.

Kel drew up an insert design and Sketchy is making a few up for us and machining the original RG50 heads to take them.

A one off could have been done in the lathe but we want to be able to easily and accurately duplicate any good results that we get.

[Tim Ey]

Thanks a lot guys!

@Wobbly, good to know about the KR1 Reed - as its "big" brother incl screw-on cage is going to be my next conversion :-)
308312
308313
My approach was to buy also this reed to test: http://www.adrenalin-pedstop.co.uk/p-Italkit_competition_reed_block_for_Aprilia_RS_125c c-3807.aspx
As It has the same width as the KR1 and I know a lot of guys who gained power with it (on a rotax 123 engine 1hp more than a Vforce3, even 2hp on a honda RS250 engine with JHA Cylinders and pipes from the original reeds)
A question to your CNC Stuffer: Why did you make the dividers in the petal-plane so short? Why not reed petal length (same lenght as the vertical divider)

@senso. It this 3D Printed ABS? I guess that wont survive very long...

[TZ350]

308315

Making progress with mapping the fuel injection.

Did a series of runs at different throttle openings 100-90-80-70% etc and it fell apart at 40%.

I will have to sit down now and look at the recorded run data to see why, it may just be to rich or something else, like the injectors are still to big or not crossing over nicely at 8-9,000 rpm.

[F5 Dave]

In 15years I never managed to get much past 14 from an RG. Mind you I've learnt a lot I'm the last few reading this thread. But its parked now the Derbi is going. . . no better than the RG at this stage.

[RAW]

The only good thing that the Boyesen reeds taught us was that the " stuffer " between the manifold exit and the reed tip exit was developed on
a flow bench to keep the flow area ( and thus the velocity ) virtually constant.
The stuffer takes into account that the reed width is generally alot wider than the entry diameter, and coincidentally the vertical height is reducing as the flow approaches the tips.
Filling in the sides with a well shaped stuffer insert keeps the area constant and directs the flow such that all the petals are opened equally by the same velocity.
What Boyesen did do was to direct the flow around the turn correctly to try and equalise the tip lifts.

One thing you need to realise though is that there is just as much positive pressure ratio developed on the intake side of the petals, from the sonic tuning of the intake length, as there
is a negative pressure ratio pulling flow thru from the case.

Here is an example of the very best setup I have done for the 30mm carb on a KZ2 - 125 engine.
This flows around 12% more air on a bench and makes around 1 1/2 Hp more than stock at peak, and near on 4 Hp at 14,000.
It divides the flow into 4 quadrants feeding each petal equally with the CNC insert,plus the plastic stuffer keeps the area constant right into the reed V.

Wobbly.
Stuffer looks very neat. What's your thoughts on it in a rotax max kart engine ?

[Haufen]

In an old 125 TM125MX I did for open karts the crank only had 0.5mm clearance within the case.
I machined the side faces and the OD of the crank pocket to make it 1.5mm and at the same time removed 5mm from the reed face.
This got the case volume back to where it was.
Reducing the boundary layer friction by doing this was worth 0.5 to 1 Hp at the sprocket.
Never had the chance to do a back to back on a RV but every fast one I have seen has some sort of patterned cut on both faces.
I did once have the faces treated with a PTFE piston coating on a 20,000 rpm RV engine and this reduced the disc and case wear to nil.

Thanks for the insight. How much clearance is typically used on the disc of a race RV engine? Unfortunately, I have yet to get my hands on one. As far as I understand, the disc is typically allowed to float a little. And at the end points of the disc travel, how far away from the side wall faces will it be (or does it have to be), then?

[senso]

Tim Ey:
Its 3d printed PLA, it is not intended to be used in the engine, just as a cheap way to prototype, final version will be cnc machined.

[Frits Overmars]

Oh, the beauty of rotary valves...
we might expect you to be the last person to say this, Frits!... You came up with the 24/7 concept; shouldn't that render all of this effort unnecessary?In the long run: yes, I think so. But there are many people here working on rotary inlets and for them it is simpler to carry on than to switch to 24/7.
On the other hand, if you are already working on a reed valve engine, converting it to 24/7 is much simpler than converting a rotary valve engine.
And finally I am in a position that I don't need to push everyone into 24/7; it's already on the move: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130808805#post1130808805


I'm wondering if you have found in testing that as elegantly simple the 24/7 intake is as a concept, maybe it turns out to be a very hard thing to tune in practice. My uneducated guess is that your swing-away valve method of creating a 24/7 intake might make it hard to get the carburetor to work across the whole rpm range.That was my initial fear too, Smitty. That was one of the reasons I was so keen on dropping the carburettor and switching to fuel injection. But the Modena tests have shown that a single carburettor can handle the switch from a closed to an open 24/7 inlet without any problems. And Modena have also got a conventional reedvalve kart engine running quite nicely on injection so they know what they should be looking for.


I liked the idea of splitting the job between two carbs, one primary carb (over a reedblock) that's drawing all the time, and a second carb (over the 24/7 intake tract) that is only open when the pipe goes to work. Maybe a little more complex mechanically, but maybe simpler to tune?No maybe's about it: more complex and more difficult to tune. Are you sure that deep in your heart you're not a double-overhead camshaft man, Smitty?:devil2:


How much clearance is typically used on the disc of a race RV engine? As far as I understand, the disc is typically allowed to float a little. And at the end points of the disc travel, how far away from the side wall faces will it be (or does it have to be), then?Clearance should be about 0,4 mm. And the disk should be able to float until it rests against either side of the disk chamber. That makes setting it up a whole lot easier.
Remember the 12-speed twin-disk Kreidlers? They had both disks pressed onto the crankshaft. Getting them well-sealing yet friction-free was a nightmare.

[seattle smitty]

. Are you sure that deep in your heart you're not a double-overhead camshaft man, Smitty?.

:facepalm:

And here I'm the guy whose street cars and trucks will always have only in-line fours or sixes with pushrods and solid lifters. And carburetors.

[Frits Overmars]

And here I'm the guy whose street cars and trucks will always have only in-line fours or sixes with pushrods and solid lifters. And carburetors.Side-valve engines should fit right in :shifty:.
308317

[seattle smitty]

I'll ignore the abuse, but what is the engine in the photo?

Can you tell us about the results so far with the 24/7 kart engine? Are they blowing over backwards? Piling up the asphalt in folds behind the tires? Slowing the rotation of the earth?

[Frits Overmars]

I'll ignore the abuse, but what is the engine in the photo?Aprilia APB: the engine with which Max Biaggi won four 250cc world championships between 1991 and 1996.


Can you tell us about the results so far with the 24/7 kart engine? Are they blowing over backwards? Piling up the asphalt in folds behind the tires? Slowing the rotation of the earth?All of the above: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130808888#post1130808888

[FastFred]

Side-valve engines should fit right in I'll ignore the abuse, ... :laugh: ...

I see Chambers has a few V8 side valves.

308318

Not one of Chambers engines, just posted here because we like it.

We would love to run one at Bonneville.

[wobbly]

I have the RV clearance at 0.5mm, close to what Frits stated.Using the Clykro drive makes this real easy as I said, the pinion can float along with the RV fixed to its shaft.

The reed stuffer went thru many stages and it quickly became clear that moving the splitters up close to the carb entry would overly restrict the already
small area from the 30mm carb - as they need a good rounded leading edge to reduce turbulence.
In the end after hours on the flow bench, having a longer vertical split with extra width and shape to the stuffer down the sides gave the best flow
and you could see that the reeds were being lifted symmetrically across their width.
Previously the outer tips were nowhere near as open as the inners, ie the reed was twisted across its width, more of an issue I would say in this wide 4 petal design.

[RAW]

Just to clarify.
Rotary valve clearance. We you say Frits recommends 0.4mm
& Wobbly you have set it at 0.5mm
Clearance would be all around the disc ( ie both sides & O/D )
Or are you both talking end float
Cheers

[wobbly]

I have 1mm clearance per side on the OD and yes we are both talking 0.5/0.4 total end float of the valve from face to face.

[RAW]

I have 1mm clearance per side on the OD and yes we are both talking 0.5/0.4 total end float of the valve from face to face.

Thanks, I will PM you with regards to stuffer

[peewee]

can someone give a quick explanation of the pros and cons of a solid vs hollow crank pin ? ordered a hollow pin because thats all i could find for the particular application but a solid pin showed up. if its better ill keep it, if not ill send it back and keep looking

[wobbly]

The solid pin will be heavier and obviously this affects the balance ie it will make the factor lower.
Hollow pins do have one issue though and that is if the press fit is designed correctly for a solid pin then the fit will then be insufficient.
Hollow pins need more interference, as they crush - loosing some of their OD as they enter the hole..
The fit must be correct for the hollow pin for another reason - as the do crush, then if the press is too heavy the pin will "barrel " down
at the ends where they enter the wheel, and this is bad for the rollers as then the pin isnt parallel.
What size do you need.

[peewee]

22x53 is what i bought. i know its a 22mm diam but i couldnt get my calipers in there to check the length so i guessed (crank is still assembled). ill go see if i can find someway to measure the length and report back if these pins are the right ones

i swear i thought frits said not to have any holes, voids, cavities in the crankshaft assembly. something to do with harmonics maybe ? or bad frequencies ? hell i cant remember. ive noticed some hollow pins use caps, thats why i was asking if its better to keep the solid pins. i have some 22x55 hollow pins i can cut down but they dont have caps on the ends

[wobbly]

If the crank was designed correctly for hollow pins then solids will be real tight on the press fit.
Frits is right about cavities, but he is talking about large balance holes etc being hollow - the small volume created by a pin hole would be insignificant
unless you are wanting to win Moto GP.

[Flettner]

Any thoughts? piston 2 is fine, piston one? sudden advance! There is a story that goes with this picture, as you could imagine!

[Neal]

Pre ignition ?

[Tim Ey]

Thanks a lot wobbly!

Have you tried a 6-Petal reed instead?
My guess my Problem with a 6-Petal reed would be the flow not to be separeted once but twice.
On your reed you are free to ad a straight divider in the middle and be safe. Your area distribution can be made by your stuffer.
At a 6 Petal reed these dividers will have to be curved to get a constant area from outside to inside... You see an attempt to do so on Vforce2 + 3 reeds quite often...
Am I thinking right?
cheers!
Tim

Edith: Just found a YZ250 Reed in my spare box which fits perfectly into the screw-on box - with 4 petals :-)

By the way? How did you put your reed on a flow-bench? Just simply let air flow through it statically on a classical flow bench and take a look at the Cd's and how the plates open? Or did you build yourself some oszillating-flow bench?

[Frits Overmars]

Any thoughts?Yes, about golf: hole in one.
308345

[peewee]

If the crank was designed correctly for hollow pins then solids will be real tight on the press fit.
Frits is right about cavities, but he is talking about large balance holes etc being hollow - the small volume created by a pin hole would be insignificant
unless you are wanting to win Moto GP.

naw the crank originally used solid pins. gonna pull it apart and use different rods. ill use these new solid pins as well i guess

[seattle smitty]

I see Chambers has a few V8 side valves. Not one of Chambers engines, just posted here because we like it. We would love to run one at Bonneville.

I have a 1941 Lincoln Continental V12 coupe. An engine with all of the faults of the Ford flathead X 1.5, sad piece of junk that most Connie owners replaced by the early Fifties with Cadillac V8s, as mine has. In the interest of having an actual V12 in the car, I'll eventually replace the Cad with a Jaguar sedan V12 if I live so long.

Flettner, that's a curious failure, got so hot the crown finally collapsed, melted out and not blasted out, yet from what I can see of the skirt, it didn't try to seize and skid there . . . so it would seem to me that the piston was made with plenty of taper and had good lubrication. Did you get an air-leak lean-out?

[Flettner]

Re the pistons, first there was the ignitec, two lobes and one sensor with one lobe having a slot so the ignition can tell cylinder two from cylinder one. This set up had a clear timing light signal on cylinder one but always cylinder two seemed " goasted". this set up had the engine running rough and within a short time a holed piston! So I took the ignition out and fitted the whole thing to my CNC mill spindle so as to run it up to 10000 rpm and watch what was happening. Cylinder one smooth and perfect advance and retard, cylinder two timing was all over the place, no wonder it holed a piston.
Next setup I decided to use my old home made CDI with no advance retard, single sensor, two pins on the flywheel with wasted spark. Engine runs smooth ( best ever ) and can hold it at 6500 under load for as long as you want, no problems at all. I ran the engine like this for a while but it was time to get the engine flying so I didn't want this home made ( and rough at that ) ignition in the sky, highly likely to fail.
So I fit the ignitec again but this time with two pickups ( 180 degrees apart ) and a single flywheel pin. I watch the timing on cylinder one and two with the light ( up to about 4500 rpm ), all is well if perhaps a little advanced ( due to me not understanding how the base timing works ) but not advanced enough to case massive failure ( as in the picture ). I run the engine up watching temps and am happy all is well, no problem, no detonation, 6000 rpm suddenly ( instantly ) the engine coughs and stops, first time up to 6000 rpm with this setup.
After some thought ( and some bad words ) I come to the conclustion that the cylinder one pickup probably should not have been placed right next to the bob weight. Seems the bob weight ( steel ) as it speeds up will start to cause fluctuations in the magnetic core in the pickup to a point where it becomes enough to trigger the ignitec, at a point way in advance of where ignition should be. Bugger, see what happens when you only know enough to be dangerous.
The new engines will have the pickups placed somewhere completly inert to outside influences.

[wobbly]

I wasnt going to say anything as we had already discussed the issue but there are two things going on that need description to help others.
Firstly is the Ignitech, until you actually think long and hard about what the Base Timing does it may NOT be intuitive, but is perfectly logical, that when
you INCREASE the base advance number YOU ARE RETARDING THE ACTUAL FIRING POINT.
Thus if its firing advanced ( that is the rotor reference line is still ahead of the stator line ) when the strobe fires - you must INCREASE the base advance to get the lines to align.
So if say you have 10* in base and a pair of lines marked at 10* on the rotor/stator, and you see that the rotor line is 5* ahead of the stator line, then the actual firing point is 15*.
To tell the computer exactly where the firing point is in reality, you need to add 5* to the base advance to retard the timing back to where it should be.
Thus in this case you increase the base to retard the timing.


The second point re the two pistons.
A hole like that can be created by 2 things, too much advance and or too lean A/F ratio.
But the actual cause of the hole is that the plug body is being overheated, and there is local detonation due to preignition of the combustion being initiated by a red hot earth or centre electrode.
This points to the plug being too hot to start with, or the cooling around the threads is insufficient.
If you somehow run too much advance, or run too lean, the piston as a whole should overheat and seize and or the end gases in the squish detonate and kill the piston edge.
The hole is a symptom of a secondary plug issue - the excessive advance just highlighted the fact you have a problem there that is lurking, in even a normal running engine.

EDIT - only just saw the comment - there is no such thing as an air leak lean out.
If here is a leak anywhere in the case of a 2T it will run rich, the only place a leak can cause leanness is between the carb and a reed, where extra air is sucked into the stream that already has fuel.

[Flettner]

The second point re the two pistons.
A hole like that can be created by 2 things, too much advance and or too lean A/F ratio.
But the actual cause of the hole is that the plug body is being overheated, and there is local detonation due to preignition of the combustion being initiated by a red hot earth or centre electrode.
This points to the plug being too hot to start with, or the cooling around the threads is insufficient.
If you somehow run too much advance, or run too lean, the piston as a whole should overheat and seize and or the end gases in the squish detonate and kill the piston edge.
The hole is a symptom of a secondary plug issue - the excessive advance just highlighted the fact you have a problem there that is lurking, in even a normal running engine.

Even if the timing goes to 60 degrees advance, instantly at 6000 rpm. ( only on this one cylinder )

[RAW]

I wasnt going to say anything as we had already discussed the issue but there are two things going on that need description to help others.
Firstly is the Ignitech, until you actually think long and hard about what the Base Timing does it may NOT be intuitive, but is perfectly logical, that when
you INCREASE the base advance number YOU ARE RETARDING THE ACTUAL FIRING POINT.
Thus if its firing advanced ( that is the rotor reference line is still ahead of the stator line ) when the strobe fires - you must INCREASE the base advance to get the lines to align.
So if say you have 10* in base and a pair of lines marked at 10* on the rotor/stator, and you see that the rotor line is 5* ahead of the stator line, then the actual firing point is 15*.
To tell the computer exactly where the firing point is in reality, you need to add 5* to the base advance to retard the timing back to where it should be.
Thus in this case you increase the base to retard the timing.


The second point re the two pistons.
A hole like that can be created by 2 things, too much advance and or too lean A/F ratio.
But the actual cause of the hole is that the plug body is being overheated, and there is local detonation due to preignition of the combustion being initiated by a red hot earth or centre electrode.
This points to the plug being too hot to start with, or the cooling around the threads is insufficient.
If you somehow run too much advance, or run too lean, the piston as a whole should overheat and seize and or the end gases in the squish detonate and kill the piston edge.
The hole is a symptom of a secondary plug issue - the excessive advance just highlighted the fact you have a problem there that is lurking, in even a normal running engine.

EDIT - only just saw the comment - there is no such thing as an air leak lean out.
If here is a leak anywhere in the case of a 2T it will run rich, the only place a leak can cause leanness is between the carb and a reed, where extra air is sucked into the stream that already has fuel.

Would you please explain how having a air leak in the casses causes a rich mixture & how this differs to a leak behind the carb

[wobbly]

Simple explanation - in the case with a leak there is a much reduced compression phase caused by the piston dropping, thus this uncompressed volume in the case
doesnt assist flow into the transfers.
In the area between the carb and the reed this volume has a trap door separating it from the case during the compression phase - the reed petals.
Thus extra air is sucked in by the depression in the case when the reeds are open and this lean mixture gets all the way into the cylinder, when the reeds are closed.
With the case leak like a broken gasket or faulty seal,some reduced amount of A/F mixture makes it into the case, but very little ends up in the cylinder.
This progressively gets worse and the engine exhibits all the 4 stroking symptoms of smoke out the back etc, so of course your clever tuning buddy leans it down
and - bang - it siezes.
Hard to get your head around I know - but after 40 + years of seeing this so many times and explaining it time and again ,no one believes me.
Go try it, lift your cylinder and cut away a 1mm slot of gasket material - bolt it up and start it.
If it aint as rich as a dogs arse, then another offer of free blowys is on the table.

[TZ350]

My little supercharger turned up today, nice unit. AMR 300.

This could be a handy little project for the AMR300.

308349

Although being CVT the engine would be pretty much constant revs so turbocharging may be better. Its 150cc so would need de stroking and boring to 100cc.

The scooter is a CPI GPR150 150cc water cooled 4T, 2.5x17" front wheel 3.5?x16" rear, fairly good CVT transmission, possibly good for 40hp.

If the rules allowed, I would love to turbocharge a 2T CVT special.

What about adding air cooled 100cc 2T turbocharged to the current F4 mix, would that be to outrageous?.

[speedpro]

I am going to claim I was thinking something like what Wobbly said regarding the cause of that piston failure. Not helped of course by the erratic timing. That holed piston "looks" to have some erosion on the exhaust port side which in my limited experience is usually heat related detonation. That heat also could cause(?) the hot plug as per Wobbly which could cause preignition. That preignition could cause a shock that displaces the boundary layer locally exposing the piston crown to exceedingly hot gases and successive shocks, eventually blasting the hole we see. It would be interesting to see if the squish band outer edge on the exhaust port side has a slight roughness.

Could you fit a steel disc behind the pickups to isolate effects from the balance weight?

[F5 Dave]

In my meagre experience I'd anecdotally say that whenever I leakdown test engines, if there is a leak, the leak is inlet manifold. Probably old engines, hard rubber.

[seattle smitty]

That holed piston "looks" to have some erosion on the exhaust port side which in my limited experience is usually heat related detonation. That heat also could cause(?) the hot plug as per Wobbly which could cause preignition. That preignition could cause a shock that displaces the boundary layer locally exposing the piston crown to exceedingly hot gases and successive shocks, eventually blasting the hole we see. It would be interesting to see if the squish band outer edge on the exhaust port side has a slight roughness.

It looks to me like any piece of aluminum plate would look if you pointed your oxy/acetylene torch at the middle of it until it got shiny, then grainy, then dropped away. Shiny-to-grainy-to-hole happens in very short order (which is why gas-welding aluminum is a balancing act, trying not to let it get beyond shiny). Okay, if you look close there are some little cracks; when the aluminum was getting real weak it was in a running engine making power strokes, after all. Yes, there is some erosion around the edge of the piston crown. But that hole melted. No sharp edges, not a blasted, broken-edged hole that looks like somebody slammed the piston crown with the back of a ball-peen hammer. This piston just got HOT in the middle. Interesting that what we can see of the skirt looks fine, however.

Are those two-ring pistons? Hard to be sure, with my eyes.

[GerbilGronk]

In my meagre experience I'd anecdotally say that whenever I leakdown test engines, if there is a leak, the leak is inlet manifold. Probably old engines, hard rubber.
My KDX engine had porous castings which would allow gearbox oil to get sucked into the crankcase. It would then smoke etc. Fixed it by getting the crankcases HPC coated. Seemed to work sweet.
http://youtu.be/N1C4eJ4npn0

[wobbly]

Yea well pistons that "just get hot " just expand - and then seize in the bore.
When there is detonation - in this case caused by an overheated spark plug, dead centre in the bore, you get chemical disassociation and this causes
free radicals to be formed from preignition.
Normally this is only seen in the squish band, where the trapped end gases are subject to excessive heat and pressure.
This causes the destruction of the alloy surfaces, be they the piston but just as commonly the bore edge or the corner of the head if any.
When we have localised detonation in the bore centre it can only be caused by an overheated spark plug component initiating preignition and thus
the precursor to free radical formation.
This thought process first occurred to that clever bastard Thiel, when the Aprilia reached a certain level of power output ( never seen before I might add )
there were continuous problems with blowing holes thru pistons.
Dropping compression, running rich etc all band aided the real issue ie killed the power - until Jan discovered the real issue.
The plug was being overheated.
So the simple solution as it turned out was getting water real close to the plug threads to cool the tortured plug body - issue solved.

[Flettner]

Yea well pistons that "just get hot " just expand - and then seize in the bore.
When there is detonation - in this case caused by an overheated spark plug, dead centre in the bore, you get chemical disassociation and this causes
free radicals to be formed from preignition.
Normally this is only seen in the squish band, where the trapped end gases are subject to excessive heat and pressure.
This causes the destruction of the alloy surfaces, be they the piston but just as commonly the bore edge or the corner of the head if any.
When we have localised detonation in the bore centre it can only be caused by an overheated spark plug component initiating preignition and thus
the precursor to free radical formation.
This thought process first occurred to that clever bastard Thiel, when the Aprilia reached a certain level of power output ( never seen before I might add )
there were continuous problems with blowing holes thru pistons.
Dropping compression, running rich etc all band aided the real issue ie killed the power - until Jan discovered the real issue.
The plug was being overheated.
So the simple solution as it turned out was getting water real close to the plug threads to cool the tortured plug body - issue solved.

You know, perhaps you are right, I see the water pump impellor has been slipping on it's shaft. Too lazy to fit a small key but now I will. Also the pump is a little on the small side. The water to plug, alloy thickness in the head would be similar to your inserts we machine up for you. Also found another little problem but I'm too ashamed to tell.

[F5 Dave]

My KDX engine had porous castings which would allow gearbox oil to get sucked into the crankcase. It would then smoke etc. Fixed it by getting the crankcases HPC coated. Seemed to work sweet.
http://youtu.be/N1C4eJ4npn0
RS125 cases reputedly go porous after a while. But hpc coating. Not a bad idea to save a case.

[Flettner]

It looks to me like any piece of aluminum plate would look if you pointed your oxy/acetylene torch at the middle of it until it got shiny, then grainy, then dropped away. Shiny-to-grainy-to-hole happens in very short order (which is why gas-welding aluminum is a balancing act, trying not to let it get beyond shiny). Okay, if you look close there are some little cracks; when the aluminum was getting real weak it was in a running engine making power strokes, after all. Yes, there is some erosion around the edge of the piston crown. But that hole melted. No sharp edges, not a blasted, broken-edged hole that looks like somebody slammed the piston crown with the back of a ball-peen hammer. This piston just got HOT in the middle. Interesting that what we can see of the skirt looks fine, however.

Are those two-ring pistons? Hard to be sure, with my eyes.

The roughness you can see on the edge of the piston are just bits of burnt piston leaving the scene of the crime. Combustion chamber / squish area is clean
Yes two ring pistons.

[Flettner]

I have a 1941 Lincoln Continental V12 coupe. An engine with all of the faults of the Ford flathead X 1.5, sad piece of junk that most Connie owners replaced by the early Fifties with Cadillac V8s, as mine has. In the interest of having an actual V12 in the car, I'll eventually replace the Cad with a Jaguar sedan V12 if I live so long.



I know of the Lincon heads, we had to machine a few for Garth Hogan a year or so ago, Hogan race heads. You know, alloy with small fins and Hogan cast into them. Race, yer right.

[speedpro]

The latest seizure I had was diagnosed by the kart mechanic as being caused by an air leak. I cleaned up the piston(again) and the bore, reassembled and pressure tested and it was all good. Went to the track and seized it again. I pressure tested prior to disassembly and it was not leaking. The piston was definitely smeared up the bore but no other obvious heat indicators. Sooo . . . taking what the kart guy said and looking at it a bit differently I thought - what if it isn't a leak but just lean at revs with the throttle closed? Long story short I've fitted a larger pilot jet and the problem has gone away. Looking back over the years I've had similar seizures and wonder how many could have been avoided.
I still have problems believing that being a bit lean on a closed throttle could cause it to seize like it did. I've ended up with a #45 jet in place of the #40 so not a huge increase.

[41juergen]

Hi guys its me again.
After all your feedback I went further into the sims but was not successful. But than I had a look into the RZ350 and TZ250 examples from Neels. So finaly it looks like that I found the issue. I had measured the duct / passage lenght of the C port with approx. 30mm. But I didn't added the part of the charge colum which belongs to the area of the reed block / intake part. So adding some 20 - 30 mm (60mm is the lenght of the duct until the tip of the reed block) everything became fine. So may be the feeling of a mismatch for the phasing was not too wrong. Now the simu allows the ignition curve Wob posted for his RZ400, a reasonable comp is possible, etc.
Now the question is: is 60mm ok or shall I try to go down to the point were "unexpected" detos will start?
And an other question about the CC comp: I think Wob you mentioned something like 1,35 is ok for a RZ setup. Is that with transfer ducts volume included?
Thank's again for all your feedback :-) from snowing Germany

[Frits Overmars]

Are those two-ring pistons? Hard to be sure, with my eyes.You must be closely related to Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles, Smitty. Clicking three times on Flettners picture in post #16428 will get you this:
308375
(Click twice on this picture).

[Frits Overmars]

When we have localised detonation in the bore centre it can only be caused by an overheated spark plug component...This thought process first occurred to that clever bastard Thiel, when the Aprilia reached a certain level of power output (never seen before I might add).... The simple solution was getting water real close to the plug threads.That, and getting the water to move. Ever wondered why the coolant pump on the Aprilia RSA125 engine looks like it has been fitted as an afterthought? Well, that's because it was. The original engine (below left) was designed with an electric pump. Then it turned out that no electric pump could even come close to the desired flow. So a mechanical pump was designed, using the impeller from the Aprilia RSW250 twin. "That should do it".
It did; it circulates 60 liters per minute for an engine that produces about 60 hp at the crankshaft: there's your rule of thumb.

[Frits Overmars]

I see the water pump impellor has been slipping on it's shaft. Too lazy to fit a small key but now I will. Also the pump is a little on the small side.In view of the above rule of thumb, most pumps are, Neil.

[Dutch Fisher]

The solid pin will be heavier and obviously this affects the balance ie it will make the factor lower.
Hollow pins do have one issue though and that is if the press fit is designed correctly for a solid pin then the fit will then be insufficient.
Hollow pins need more interference, as they crush - loosing some of their OD as they enter the hole..
The fit must be correct for the hollow pin for another reason - as the do crush, then if the press is too heavy the pin will "barrel " down
at the ends where they enter the wheel, and this is bad for the rollers as then the pin isnt parallel.
What size do you need.

Recommended interference fit for hollow/solid ?
Pressure reading your likely to see on press gauge ?

[F5 Dave]

Frits would be horrified to know what Mike and I are currently using for water pumps on our MBs.

[Flettner]

In view of the above rule of thumb, most pumps are, Neil.

I'll have to upgrade the size pump I've got lined up for the FOS. Have not had much spare time recently to work on FOS cylinder but yesterday I had a fair crack at it. I don't think cooling will be an issue on this cylinder as I've got water cavities everywhere.
The FOS will run on the same cases as the sleeve cylinder and I expect that to need careful cooling control ( lots of cold water ).

[wobbly]

I was incredulous ( big word for the day ) when told by the Yamaha head of engine design at the time that I would need 1L / Min / hp to keep the 500 cool.
We had to get into deep discussion with the washing machine engineers at F&P to gain some insight into what was actually required to achieve that number.
In the end I finally got it right with a combination of impeller/scroll shape and speed, but it took near 5 Hp ( worked out from the test electric motor power consumption )
to squirt 160L/min across the BSL carpark.

Re the crank fits, for solid pins that dont crush then 0.035mm to 0.045mm, the hollow pins need a little more at 0.05 to 0.06 or even more with a big thru hole.
The bigger the pin the less is needed,but both should end up with around 5T press fit, if its not then you run the risk of the wheels moving out of true.
Much more than that with hollow pins and they will barrel where they enter the hole.

Re the deto in the sim.
I havnt seen a sim that was super sensitive to duct length - except I must say I often lengthen the C port duct to the same as the rest ,as this makes the sim run time much quicker.
It also looses power, so yes that would help to reduce deto as it also reduces the peak cylinder pressure.
As I have stated before reeds dont like big cases, and 1.3 to 1.35 seems to work on most - but the crappyer the duct geometry the 1.35 + area will make more power.
The RZ ducts are not too bad except in anything over 64mm bore.

[jasonu]

I know of the Lincon heads, we had to machine a few for Garth Hogan a year or so ago, Hogan race heads. You know, alloy with small fins and Hogan cast into them. Race, yer right.

Really????? Talk about cheesy.

[jasonu]

Frits would be horrified to know what Mike and I are currently using for water pumps on our MBs.

Surely you guys are still not using thermosyphon???

[F5 Dave]

No a tiny 12V Galley pump (think boat hand-basin taps) with small hose inlets. I've tried a larger brushless design but the vibration cracked it & I need to machine a lid for it. But either way it can maintain 60 degrees so its better than air cooling by a much larger margin than further improvements to cooling desirable as they may be. other priorities atm.

[Grumph]

Re the crank fits, for solid pins that dont crush then 0.035mm to 0.045mm, the hollow pins need a little more at 0.05 to 0.06 or even more with a big thru hole.
The bigger the pin the less is needed,but both should end up with around 5T press fit, if its not then you run the risk of the wheels moving out of true.
Much more than that with hollow pins and they will barrel where they enter the hole

If your hollow pin is not going to be as good a fit as you'd like, you can always use a very old trick - well Villiers used it...and press expander plugs into the open pin ends. After it's fitted up of course...

[wobbly]

Yamaha still do it on KT100 cranks as they are rebuilt continuously and pushing out the plugs helps to keep the fit in the wheels.
Makes assembly and truing easy as.

[peewee]

Re the crank fits, for solid pins that dont crush then 0.035mm to 0.045mm, the hollow pins need a little more at 0.05 to 0.06 or even more with a big thru hole.
The bigger the pin the less is needed,but both should end up with around 5T press fit, if its not then you run the risk of the wheels moving out of true.
Much more than that with hollow pins and they will barrel where they enter the hole.

.

seems like alot of people weld the pins to keep anything from moving. is it not a good idea ?

[Frits Overmars]

I was incredulous ( big word for the day ) when told by the Yamaha head of engine design at the time that I would need 1L / Min / hp to keep the 500 cool... In the end I finally got it right with a combination of impeller/scroll shape and speed, but it took near 5 Hp to squirt 160L/min across the BSL carpark.Did you notice that the cooling water already heats up just from being pumped around, even when the engine is not firing?
With your 500cc you will have had the added challenge of fitting a cooler big enough to get rid of the engine heat without using ridiculously high water temperatures.
I remember that Cagiva deliberately sacrified engine power in exchange for less air resistance by reducing their radiator size.

[wobbly]

Its butchery really to weld crank pins, but it does exacerbate a multitude of problems.
In the RZ the press fit of the centre axle is suspect due to there being another big end press fitted into the same wheel.
So its all but impossible to keep an RZ straight if is seizes without welding the centre.

When I did the pump tests thats exactly what I found Frits, when ramming 160L/min thru a 22mm exit pipe from the pump
the water was already warm to the touch.

[jasonu]

seems like alot of people weld the pins to keep anything from moving. is it not a good idea ?

Not if you plan on rebuilding the crank in the future.

[adegnes]

No a tiny 12V Galley pump (think boat hand-basin taps) with small hose inlets. I've tried a larger brushless design but the vibration cracked it & I need to machine a lid for it. But either way it can maintain 60 degrees so its better than air cooling by a much larger margin than further improvements to cooling desirable as they may be. other priorities atm.

I use a aux coolant pump from a mercedes, works good. You find it on a lot of different cars.

[Flettner]

Here we go again, beginnings of the 100cc FOS.

[ken seeber]

When I did the pump tests thats exactly what I found Frits, when ramming 160L/min thru a 22mm exit pipe from the pump
the water was already warm to the touch.

Couldn't help myself. 5 hp = 4 kw @ 160 lit/min gives a temp rise of 0.36 deg C Wouldn't notice it over here cos it is now sitting on 39 deg, but for Frits 0.35 deg would be a pleasurable increase over the 5 deg daytime temps in the good (c)old Netherlands.

[41juergen]

Thanks' Wob, I use a 66mm bore and playing with the CC comp it shows a bit more power when going up to 1.4 (still with YAM1 as the next set of barrels then will get the A port over the B port setup). Is the 1.35 with the volume of the transfer ducts included?

[Dutch Fisher]

I use a aux coolant pump from a mercedes, works good. You find it on a lot of different cars.

Do you know the current draw on that pump ?

[adegnes]

Do you know the current draw on that pump ?

About 1.5amp I think.

[Muciek]

Maybe You know how many liters pers minute it pump?

[adegnes]

Maybe You know how many liters pers minute it pump?

Sorry, have searched around to, can't find any numbers. I can test it later today.

[adegnes]

Sorry, have searched around to, can't find any numbers. I can test it later today.

My research lab facility show 25l/min unrestricted.
308395

[Frits Overmars]

I use a aux coolant pump from a mercedes, works good. You find it on a lot of different cars.If you want to use car parts, the best pumps are the ones that circulate coolant through the intercoolers of turbo-engines.

[Frits Overmars]

Couldn't help myself. 5 hp = 4 kw @ 160 lit/min gives a temp rise of 0.36 deg C .Maybe I can help, Ken. The cooling system doesn't hold 160 liters; not even 6 liters.
What little water there is, circulates, gets warmed up, circulates again, gets warmed up some more, etc.

[wobbly]

Yes the 1.35 case ratio will include the transfer volume - I always drill a piston and do the laborious task of filling the thing up.
I wouldnt take too much notice of the sim result regarding case ratios.
This is only a 1 dimesional sim, and wont recognise the effect that the crap transfer duct geometry has on performance - apart from the inputs
that Neels has arranged to reduce power with "straight" Vs "teacup" designs and sharp Vs round duct entries.

[husaberg]

If you want to use car parts, the best pumps are the ones that circulate coolant through the intercoolers of turbo-engines.


The factory water/air intercooler system in the Subaru Liberty RS uses an impeller-type pump rated at 15 litres a minute (all flow figures are open-flow). It is automatically switched from low to high speed as required. This is an ideal pump because it was designed by Subaru to circulate the water in a water/air intercooling system! However, it is a very expensive to buy new, but if one can be sourced secondhand it is ideal.

A cheap and simple impeller pump is the Whale GP99 electric pump. It is so small that the in-line pump can be supported by the hoses that connect to it. It flows 11 litres a minute and has 12mm hose fittings. It is 136 x 36mm in size and is suitable for discontinuous operation. This pump is available from marine and caravan suppliers.

The Flojet 4100-143 4000 is a diaphragm pump suitable for water/air intercooler use. The US-manufactured pump uses a permanent magnet brush-type fan-cooled motor with ball-bearings and is fully rebuildable. The pumping head uses four diaphragms which are flexed by a wobble plate attached to the motor's shaft. The 19 litre/minute pump uses ¾ inch fittings and is 230mm long and 86mm in diameter. It is available from companies supplying agricultural spray equipment.

The Flojet pump needs to be mounted either vertically with the pump head at the bottom, or horizontally with the vent slots in the head facing downwards. This is to stop any fluid draining into the motor if there are any sealing problems in the pump head. At its peak pressure of 280 kPa (40 psi), the pump can draw up to 14 amps; however, in intercooler operation the pressure is vastly less and so the pump draws only about 5.5 amps at 12 volts. The pump is noisy (as all diaphragm pumps are) but mounting it on a rubber gearbox crossmember mount effectively quietens it. Note that these pumps are much louder when mounted to the car's bodywork than they are when sitting on the bench!
Autospeed....

davies
https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/s/cooling/electric-water-pump
http://www.mawsolutions.com/html/ebp.html


http://www.chargecooler.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=184
http://www.metricmind.com/category/ev-auxiliary-water-pumps/


Jegs
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-Products/555/50950/10002/-1
http://www.jegs.com/i/Dedenbear/302/WP3/10002/-1
http://www.jegs.com/i/Meziere/680/WP136S/10002/-
http://www.jegs.com/i/CSR/170/923/10002/-1
http://www.jegs.com/i/Proform/778/68220BK/10002/-1 140 liters / minute $187 US
http://www.jegs.com/i/Proform/778/66225R/10002/-1 140 liters / minute $170 US
http://www.jegs.com/i/Ford+Racing/397/M-8501-MSVT/10002/-1

US Gallons are about 4 liters

BDK
http://www.bdkraceeng.co.uk/Electric%20Water%20Pump%201.html

left field
http://www.suremarineservice.com/CM30P7-1-3/4.aspx
http://www.amazon.com/Brushless-Solar-Water-Pump-Panel/dp/B00E0FXR6K/ref=pd_sxp_grid_pt_0_1
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/60-PSI-17l-m-Water-Pressure-Pump-12-volt-Boat-Camping-FL60-/111236121288

[wobbly]

BDK Engineering in England do a pump with a controller that speeds up the pump in relation to preset upper and lower temps.
Works a treat on my dyno, dunno about a running bike, but they have reports of use on all sorts of powerful sidecars etc.

EDIT - the new kit I got said the pump had been uprated to 20L/Min

[peewee]

Not if you plan on rebuilding the crank in the future.

this is true. although you can grind the weld off but its a pain in the ass and you run the risk of gouging the crankpin bore if all the weld isnt removed before to try to press off the wheel

[peewee]

Thanks' Wob, I use a 66mm bore and playing with the CC comp it shows a bit more power when going up to 1.4 (still with YAM1 as the next set of barrels then will get the A port over the B port setup). Is the 1.35 with the volume of the transfer ducts included?

like wobbly said, i wouldnt pay much notice to the sim case ratio. it will be all over the place once you start changing the parameters of ducts and reedvalves, etc. find a old piston and drill a hole in the top and use oil. thats what i did. the sim was giving me a strange case ratio so i didnt pay much attention to it

[wobbly]

The only reason the sim would throw up an odd ratio ( as opposed to the one you actually entered ) would be if you
didnt tell it the transfer ducts were included - as they always will be if its measured properly.

[41juergen]

Ok got it. I just did that with a 65,5mm bore and a 54mm stroke and came to a CC CR of 1,38, just work with that.
About the C port length I played a bit and got that results:
sim 343: 30 mm, sim 344: 45 mm, sim 345: 37 mm, sim 346: 40 mm
So may be because of a too high dynamic comp at least here a minimum of 45mm is needed to reduce / eliminate the influence.

I also played with the distance from piston face to exhaust transducer. The sim shows the highest value at approx. 300mm, a bit far, eh? In my current setup I have the temp sensor mounted approx. 200 mm behind piston face....

[wobbly]

The real issue is that all of those TubMax values are way too high to begin with, and the influence of the C port is being overstated.
There are a heap of points that would make the TubMax values too high, from too much com or MSV, tailpipe too small, too much ignition, Comb Eff too high
etc etc.
You need to fix the real problem, as going over 940 end gas temp anywhere instantly gets you way close to detonation.

[Frits Overmars]

Meanwhile in Holland: 308434

[TZ350]

Meanwhile in Holland: 308434

Truly great looking bike, I am very interested in the CVT concept for a road racer, it is frustrating, I just can't complete projects as fast as I would like.


http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/recordbikes.html

50cc speed records over the years.

Page 1100 links list ...

[wobbly]

C,mon Frits more info.
Very hard to see but the carb angle looks way steep, had to fix this several times lately as they spew fuel thru the pilot circuit under brakes.

[Frits Overmars]

Very hard to see but the carb angle looks way steep, had to fix this several times lately as they spew fuel thru the pilot circuit under brakes.You may be right about the carb angle Wob, but we won't know until it is running.
It's based on the Derbi Variant engine that I presented here some time ago. I am not directly involved in the project; I just try to stimulate it.

[TZ350]

Hey Team ESE!

It was really great to see you again on the weekend. Really sorry I couldn't ride with you, but I was so sick last week and unfortunately still not feeling much better!

Anyway as you probably know, I am about to head overseas to compete in the 2015 European Womens Cup and European Junior Cup – the race series held at world superbike events. I believe I can win this championship and bring the trophy home to New Zealand, but I still have a way to go with fundraising to make this happen.

You can imagine the costs for this season are huge and as always I am fundraising to make it happen. We still need an extra 15,000 to cover my insurance, licensing flights and travel costs. I’ve decided to run a fundraising campaign on Spark My Potential, and I’m sending you this email because I thought you might be interested in helping out. I’d really love it if you could check it out and be one of the first to make a small pledge to help me get there.

It’s really important I start raising the money as early as possible. The faster the bar starts rising, the more confidence people will have in me and my dream.

Everyone who pledges will get regular updates sent directly to your email inbox while I am in Europe competing and also go into the draw to win one of 5 prize packs. Also, the first 15 people to pledge over $200 will receive a ticket for a meet and greet event with me at Hampton Downs at the NZ superbike championships 7 & 8th March 2015.

Spark My potential is all or nothing. That means if I don’t raise $15,000 no one will be charged and I won’t receive anything. Any support would really help others to give so if you could check it out and make a pledge today.. Big or small it all adds up.

Here’s the link: www.sparkmypotential.co.nz/project/avalonbiddle (http://www.sparkmypotential.co.nz/project/avalonbiddle)

I was wondering if you would be able to share this link with any one you know who may help, or anyone who knew dad and his enthusiasm for getting me on to the world stage!!

Thanks so much for the generous support so far, never forgotten.
Cheers
Av

<iframe height="500" width="250" src="http://sparkmypotential.co.nz//widget/project/avalonbiddle/light-skyscraper" frameborder="0" seamless="seamless"></iframe>

I have spent the last three years fine-tuning my skills in Italy, racing against the fierce competition of the Italian Championships. In 2013 I finished on the podium twice and in 2012, my first year full time overseas, I finished 2nd in the Italian Women’s Championship.

I believe I have the speed and skill to fight for the European Women’s Cup title in 2015 and am fundraising for contributions to make this season financially possible. As kiwis we face many obstacles racing against the best riders in the world up in Europe, and I am seeking support from you to convert my determination to beat the odds into success for everyone who has helped me along the way.

[F5 Dave]

It looks light, I wonder what it would be like to race coming into a corner, feathering the throttle? Old dog probably couldn't learn new tricks.

[F5 Dave]

Thanks for posting that up Rob, have been thinking about giving some money, pity it can't be more.

C'mon guys, add a few bucks to your credit card, her mother can't support her on her own. Won't get charged if target is not met.

[wobbly]

Yer guys, ive done Av a couple a hundy, the rest of you get on with it.

[41juergen]

I already learned about the TUbMax numbers that I was too high in the static comp (the data shown on the graph were with a comp of 15,3... :shit: ). So as Frits said, go down with the static comp and use the energy in the pipe. And doing that even the power incerased a bit...:niceone:
Any advise about the exhaust tranducer position in the sim? If I recall correct Frits said the volume of the fresh charge going out of the exhaust is approx. the cylinder volume, right? That volume down the pipe would be the position, in my case approx. 250 mm. But will be the fresh charge heated up in the pipe (as well also before in the cylinder) and expanding so that the 300 mm in the graph are reasonable?

[Frits Overmars]

Any advise about the exhaust tranducer position in the sim? If I recall correct Frits said the volume of the fresh charge going out of the exhaust is approx. the cylinder volume, right? That volume down the pipe would be the position, in my case approx. 250 mm. But will be the fresh charge heated up in the pipe (as well also before in the cylinder) and expanding so that the 300 mm in the graph are reasonable?If I recall correctly I advised to allow for a volume in the pipe equal to the cylinder volume. The volume of fresh charge going into the pipe will probably be less than that, but it won't be concentrated in one dense lump; it will heat up like you suppose, and it will also mix with spent gases in the pipe, so it will reach a bit further than its original volume would make you think.
Exhaust temperature sensors and oxygen sensors should be placed so far downstream that they won't be touched by the fresh charge. Oxygen sensors hate to be cooled down, and they hate oil.

[chrisc]

Hey Team ESE!

It was really great to see you again on the weekend. Really sorry I couldn't ride with you, but I was so sick last week and unfortunately still not feeling much better!

Here’s the link: www.sparkmypotential.co.nz/project/avalonbiddle (http://www.sparkmypotential.co.nz/project/avalonbiddle)


Thanks for posting that up Rob, have been thinking about giving some money, pity it can't be more.

C'mon guys, add a few bucks to your credit card, her mother can't support her on her own. Won't get charged if target is not met.


Yer guys, ive done Av a couple a hundy, the rest of you get on with it.

Nice one guys, I've added to her mission. I think we all know she has the skill to take the title, I really hope it goes her way! Go av!

[adegnes]

Is it possible to "extend" a magnetic pickup?
Say I want to trigger from a toothed wheel behind a 5mm aluminium plate, can I drill a hole in said plate and glue a steel/iron/magnetic pin in there, then but the pickup up against the pin on the outside?

Pic of pickups.

[Tim Ey]

Is it possible to "extend" a magnetic pickup?
Say I want to trigger from a toothed wheel behind a 5mm aluminium plate, can I drill a hole in said plate and glue a steel/iron/magnetic pin in there, then but the pickup up against the pin on the outside?

Pic of pickups.

For that purpose, i would choose a pickup as it is used on camshafts of foulstroke-engines.

[adegnes]

For that purpose, i would choose a pickup as it is used on camshafts of foulstroke-engines.

Thanks, thats good advice! But anyways, out of curiosity, could the extended pickup idea work?

[senso]

Probably gluing is going to break the magnetic path, get a pick-up that has removable iron/magnet and use one of those, the CRM125 pick-up allows that, and does the yamaha dt lc 50 one, but those might be bike models rare in where you live.