ESE's works engine tuner

[wobbly]

Here is the STA analysis of the M50.
About as accurate as the drawings allow, but shows that the Blow STA is on the money, the transfers too small - but as they flow so well
in the right directions this is not holding back the power production badly.

[adegnes]

Here is the STA analysis of the M50.
About as accurate as the drawings allow, but shows that the Blow STA is on the money, the transfers too small - but as they flow so well
in the right directions this is not holding back the power production badly.

Thank you! Means alot that you took the time!

[Larry Wiechman]

Here is the STA analysis of the M50.
About as accurate as the drawings allow, but shows that the Blow STA is on the money, the transfers too small - but as they flow so well
in the right directions this is not holding back the power production badly.

So, this engine needs an additional 21% exhaust port area to meet the targets?

[wobbly]

Ha Ha, sorry not even close.

The Exhaust STA is basically a redundant measurement.

As it has been alluded to in many pages here, reducing the Ex duct volume,by lifting the floor and filling in the bottom corner radii at
the port face has a way positive more effect - due to the velocity increase and a reduction in A port short circuiting.
Same effect at the duct exit into the header, where the rule of thumb for a 3 port is 75% exit area of the total port effective, works a treat.

Its the combination of the Blowdown STA and the Transfer STA ( modified by the discharge coefficient created by the duct shape and the port orientation )
that sets the power making potential of any 2T setup.

Forget what Cameron and Blair etal said in the literature last century, and take heed of what Thiel found in the dyno cell.

[adegnes]

Here is the STA analysis of the M50.
About as accurate as the drawings allow, but shows that the Blow STA is on the money, the transfers too small - but as they flow so well
in the right directions this is not holding back the power production badly.

All the ports are actually about 1mm higher than what I managed to show in my crappy portmap, they're nice and symmetrical to
Seem's to be a well made little cylinder - maybe I should leave those transfer ducts alone for now, in fear of screwing up the "harmony". I was going to widen them 5mm.


Could someone share how they manage to get an accurate port map? I obviously suck at it, though bad equipment has to take part of the blame.
Do you use graph paper when you trace the bore? My graph paper was too stiff to use.

[teriks]

I'd be very interested in seeing how you built the internals of that silencer if you were happy to share.
Thanks for posting the photos. I love seeing where else 2 strokes excel in this world.Sure, it's nothing fancy. Need to get to my home computer to get the drawings, so might take some time.

[wobbly]

Well the port heights seemed fine in that the stroke length of 39.4 works on the graph paper as the height from tdc
down to the bottom of the EX measures right on that.
So the EX timing at 23mm = 92.5 atdc = 175 duration, lift it 1mm = 22mm = 89.5 atdc = 181 duration.
But we need alot more accuracy with the transfers as lifting them all 1mm makes them way too big.
You should use a long stroke dial gauge sitting on the piston, zeroed at tdc.
I took the transfer widths off the radial angle diagram, as this is the most accurate.
You do realize that using graph paper in the bore and doing the old "rubbing " thing doesn't give the true chordal widths, and that the chordal widths are
also not the actual " flow " widths needed.

[adegnes]

Well the port heights seemed fine in that the stroke length of 39.4 works on the graph paper as the height from tdc
down to the bottom of the EX measures right on that.
So the EX timing at 23mm = 92.5 atdc = 175 duration, lift it 1mm = 22mm = 89.5 atdc = 181 duration.
But we need alot more accuracy with the transfers as lifting them all 1mm makes them way too big.
You should use a long stroke dial gauge sitting on the piston, zeroed at tdc.
I took the transfer widths off the radial angle diagram, as this is the most accurate.
You do realize that using graph paper in the bore and doing the old "rubbing " thing doesn't give the true chordal widths, and that the chordal widths are
also not the actual " flow " widths needed.


Thanks for the tips! I'll be back with more accurate numbers!

[Frits Overmars]

The Exhaust STA is basically a redundant measurement....Forget what Cameron and Blair et al said in the literature last century, and take heed of what Thiel found in the dyno cell.Some more reading on the subject: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130292202#post1130292202

[Frits Overmars]

Could someone share how they manage to get an accurate port map? There is no such animal. Port maps are only accurate to the nearest millimeter which is not nearly good enough, they show distorted port widths and no directional or axial angles at all. Port maps are fine for establishing the number of ports, and not much else.

[husaberg]

.


.

Wayne and Frits how do you work of how much air an engine consumes to say make say 50hp if its 125cc.
Do you work your way backwards from the power output or is there a rule of thumb He asks hopefully.
I realise the was flow measurements done so I am hopeful there is a rule of thumb.

I found this its American diesel but will it still work?


For practice use an air flow of 80 cubic feet per minute and it will equal 115.27 horsepower and use this for your hosepower to air flow calculation.
So 50 hp =34.7cu ft/minute

34.7ft³= 0.98m³/ minute

The next question is, Is it calculable how many hp This takes moving this wet mixture though the case and into the cylinder approx. is cool (He asks hopefully............)

[ken seeber]

Husa,

This is a bit of a rough guide, but I am sure Wob or Frits could come up with something better with EngMod:

"So, using the RSA 125, 54 hp @ 12,000 rpm as an example. Rounding numbers as we go, this equates to 40 kW. Referring to an SAE paper 2004-01-3561, the instrumented dynamometer performance of a Honda RS125 engine was measured and compared to various computer predictions. This showed a best BSFC (brake mean specific fuel consumption or basically fuel mass flow rate per unit of power) of 400 gm/kWhr. Using this figure as a general guide, we can calculate a fuel flow rate of 40 * 0.4 = 16 kg/hr = 0.27 kg/min = 270 gm/min.

At 12,000 rpm, this gives us 0.023 gm/cycle. Using a fuel density of 0.74, this gives us a fuel volume per cycle of 0.031 mm^3.

If this was a cube of fuel, it would be of (0.031)^0.333 = 0.31 mm per side or if a spherical droplet, it would be of (0.031 *3/4 * π)^0.333 = Ø0.4 mm.

Pretty small stuff really, not something like the Ø3 -4 mm as one might imagine a droplet might be.

Taking this one stage further, if the A/F ratio was 12:1, this would mean 0.023 * 12 = 0.28 gm air was entering the engine per cycle. Using an air density of 1.2 kg/met^3 (at sea level & 15 deg C), this would give us a volume of air entering the engine of 0.000233 met^3 = 233 cc. From this the Delivery Ratio can be calculated at 233/125 = 1.87 : 1. This is pretty good, and sort of correlates with the DR indicated in the SAE paper of around 1.4 : 1, this engine under their test conditions was around 30 kW, not the 40 of the RSA."

[husaberg]

Husa,

This is a bit of a rough guide, but I am sure Wob or Frits could come up with something better with EngMod:

"So, using the RSA 125, 54 hp @ 12,000 rpm as an example. Rounding numbers as we go, this equates to 40 kW. Referring to an SAE paper 2004-01-3561, the instrumented dynamometer performance of a Honda RS125 engine was measured and compared to various computer predictions. This showed a best BSFC (brake mean specific fuel consumption or basically fuel mass flow rate per unit of power) of 400 gm/kWhr. Using this figure as a general guide, we can calculate a fuel flow rate of 40 * 0.4 = 16 kg/hr = 0.27 kg/min = 270 gm/min.

At 12,000 rpm, this gives us 0.023 gm/cycle. Using a fuel density of 0.74, this gives us a fuel volume per cycle of 0.031 mm^3.

If this was a cube of fuel, it would be of (0.031)^0.333 = 0.31 mm per side or if a spherical droplet, it would be of (0.031 *3/4 * π)^0.333 = Ø0.4 mm.

Pretty small stuff really, not something like the Ø3 -4 mm as one might imagine a droplet might be.

Taking this one stage further, if the A/F ratio was 12:1, this would mean 0.023 * 12 = 0.28 gm air was entering the engine per cycle. Using an air density of 1.2 kg/met^3 (at sea level & 15 deg C), this would give us a volume of air entering the engine of 0.000233 met^3 = 233 cc. From this the Delivery Ratio can be calculated at 233/125 = 1.87 : 1. This is pretty good, and sort of correlates with the DR indicated in the SAE paper of around 1.4 : 1, this engine under their test conditions was around 30 kW, not the 40 of the RSA."

Cheers Ken

[Frits Overmars]

Husa, here is a rule of thumb: a racing two-stroke consumes about 7 cc fuel per hp per minute (the Ryger engine consumes considerably less).


using the RSA 125, 54 hp @ 12,000 rpm as an example.... the Delivery Ratio can be calculated at 233/125 = 1.87 : 1.
This is pretty good, and sort of correlates with the DR indicated in the SAE paper of around 1.4 : 1, this engine under their test conditions was around 30 kW, not the 40 of the RSA."Ken, you might want to review your correlation as the RSA produces its 54 hp @ 13,000 not 12,000 rpm.

[ken seeber]

[QUOTE
Ken, you might want to review your correlation as the RSA produces its 54 hp @ 13,000 not 12,000 rpm.[/QUOTE]

Frits, as #13 is supposedly an unlucky number, I went for the 12k. Could have gone for 14k, but either way, both within a tolerance range of +/- 10% which is probably more accurate than all the assumptions. :weird:

[seattle smitty]

. . . rule of thumb: a racing two-stroke consumes about 7 cc fuel per hp per minute . . .

"Fuel"???!! He means gasoline, what you poor bikers have to run.:bleh:

"Nitromethane can detonate and cause serious harm to people and property.1 A single 5-gallon can of nitromethane
has a fatality range of 42 feet and can cause significant injury or damage at a range of 316 feet. A full 55-gallon
drum of nitromethane has a blast radius of 92 feet and can cause significant injury or damage up to 700 feet away
from the center of the blast."

Now THAT's fuel !!!

[Frits Overmars]

A full 55-gallon drum of nitromethane has a blast radius of 92 feet and can cause significant injury or damage up to 700 feet away from the center of the blast. Now THAT's fuel !!!Smitty, are you talking real gallons or US gallons? :p

Nitromethane, wasn't that the baby brother of nitroglycerin, the stuff that I made at home when I was twelve?
Yes, the shed has a new roof now, thanks for asking. And the new neighbours are really nice people.

[Lef16]

Hey guys,
I have a question,I yesterday measure the base advance of my engine,and it is 8*.I was discussing this with a friend and he advised me to modify it for 15*,but when I asked him why should I do this,he couldnt answer.
So I was thinking what excactly is the base advance doing?I have an Ignitech,not standar CDI,so changing the base adv won't change the whole curve in degrees.
Also,whats happens when the lobe passes through the CPS..why some flywheels have wide lobe and some others short?
Cheers!

[adegnes]

This is as accurate as I can get it:

Iame m50 cylinder
312254

Stroke = 39.4mm
Bore = 40mm
Stud pattern = 57x57mm


"Cylinder rubbing":
(to show radius of port corners)
312390


Port heights:
Main Exhaust open = 22.4mm atdc Height = 17mm
Aux Exhaust open = 24.1mm atdc Height = 7.6mm
A-port open = 31.2mm atdc Height = 8.2mm
B-port open = 31.7mm atdc Height = 7.7mm
C-port open = 31.7mm atdc Height = 7.7mm


Axial transfer angles:
A = 25°
B = 7°
C = 55°

Radial transfer angles:
312351


Exhaust port widths and shape of aux exhaust outer wall:
millimeter graph paper.
312388


Transfer port widths:
millimeter graph paper
312389


Exhaust duct is 27x20mm at the flange.


Hope this can benefit others in search for a 50cc cylinder to, not just me.

[wobbly]

In reply to the question about the base timing.
This number is irrelevant to anything except that under 300rpm when the flywheel first starts moving, the spark fires, by default at the base timing.
7* or 27* makes no difference, except a big single would probably break your ankle if kicking it over at 27* firing.
This simply tells the ECU where TDC is in relation to the mechanical triggering point on the flywheel.
Changing the base advance ( without moving the trigger ) DOES change ALL the timing points.
As you increase the base advance you are retarding ALL the actual programmed spark events.

The lobe length is also pretty much irrelevant, as an Ignitech fires off the trailing edge point - its less susceptible to RF noise being a dropping trigger signal..
A very long lobe causes problems in that the waveform created by the bump upwards being closer to the trigger pole, decays to zero
and you can get random misfiring, but this can be accounted for in software.

And here is the STA analysis with the better data, now we see the guys doing this were pretty close to the money.

[chrisc]

Thanks Wobbly and Frits. It's very worthwhile reviewing the numbers on an engine like this and talking through these numbers.

[ken seeber]

The Ryger engine. Looking at the patents and drawing, if they are the actual patents that apply to what everyone is talking about and what Frits drove (see http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/mosaics?CC=WO&NR=2013185802A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20131219&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP ), I can see lots of complexities. However it may turn out to be a real gun, a lot simpler and be the answer to the next advancement of 2 strokes. Time will tell.
To me, one of the attractions of the 2 stroke is its basic simplicity, the major cyclic moving parts being the piston, rod and crank. OK, we can also have the rotary valve, reed valve and even injectors, but the primary basics are those three items. So sticking with that theme, I reckon a step forward might be to provide an inlet that bypasses the crankcase. The inlet drawing directly from atmosphere and discharging into the cylinder, in place of a regular transfer port.

The pics tell the story. What you see is a set of rubberies from a TM KZ10B cylinder, fairly accurately located onto a steel mandrel, its surface representing the actual bore.
In this case the standard B passage is screwed around a bit, presumably to clear the cylinder base studs and nuts and necessary material around there. From memory the RSA passages are seemingly a bit more direct.
Also shown is the suggested inlet passage, in place of the regular B passage. A bit arbitrary in its design, but the principle is clear. It is shown as being throttled. The concept being that the throttle would be closed until the engine speed and load are up there such that the exhaust is working and has the capacity to draw air or air/fuel directly in, bypassing the crankcase. Up to that point, the engine would be running only on the A and C ports. Alternative versions could use a diversion valve in the passage, switching from the regular B passage to the direct inlet.
Would it be better? Who knows, the main advantage I see it that it won’t see any pressure drop and volume constraints associated with coming thru the crankcase and also nice cool air direct from the world.
Issues? Tons. If it was drawing in air only, would that air have sufficient time to mix with the compensated over-rich mixture coming in from the A & C ports. Managing the transition might be interesting, but less so if they were carburetted or injected. Dunno if it would get by the CIK homologation stuff, even if it still had the single Ø30 mm obligatory carb.
Power, how about 75 hp and 17500 rpm? Dream on baby!

312392312393312394312395312396312397

[adegnes]

And here is the STA analysis with the better data, now we see the guys doing this were pretty close to the money.

Thanks again!

[Flettner]

The Ryger engine. Looking at the patents and drawing, if they are the actual patents that apply to what everyone is talking about and what Frits drove (see http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/mosaics?CC=WO&NR=2013185802A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20131219&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP ), I can see lots of complexities. However it may turn out to be a real gun, a lot simpler and be the answer to the next advancement of 2 strokes. Time will tell.
To me, one of the attractions of the 2 stroke is its basic simplicity, the major cyclic moving parts being the piston, rod and crank. OK, we can also have the rotary valve, reed valve and even injectors, but the primary basics are those three items. So sticking with that theme, I reckon a step forward might be to provide an inlet that bypasses the crankcase. The inlet drawing directly from atmosphere and discharging into the cylinder, in place of a regular transfer port.

The pics tell the story. What you see is a set of rubberies from a TM KZ10B cylinder, fairly accurately located onto a steel mandrel, its surface representing the actual bore.
In this case the standard B passage is screwed around a bit, presumably to clear the cylinder base studs and nuts and necessary material around there. From memory the RSA passages are seemingly a bit more direct.
Also shown is the suggested inlet passage, in place of the regular B passage. A bit arbitrary in its design, but the principle is clear. It is shown as being throttled. The concept being that the throttle would be closed until the engine speed and load are up there such that the exhaust is working and has the capacity to draw air or air/fuel directly in, bypassing the crankcase. Up to that point, the engine would be running only on the A and C ports. Alternative versions could use a diversion valve in the passage, switching from the regular B passage to the direct inlet.
Would it be better? Who knows, the main advantage I see it that it won’t see any pressure drop and volume constraints associated with coming thru the crankcase and also nice cool air direct from the world.
Issues? Tons. If it was drawing in air only, would that air have sufficient time to mix with the compensated over-rich mixture coming in from the A & C ports. Managing the transition might be interesting, but less so if they were carburetted or injected. Dunno if it would get by the CIK homologation stuff, even if it still had the single Ø30 mm obligatory carb.
Power, how about 75 hp and 17500 rpm? Dream on baby!

312392312393312394312395312396312397

I like the way you think, there you have the basics, now cast a cylinder and try it, just put an injector ( or two ) on that.

[Frits Overmars]

The Ryger engine. Looking at the patents and drawing, if they are the actual patents that apply to what everyone is talking about and what Frits drove (see http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/mosaics?CC=WO&NR=2013185802A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20131219&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP ), I can see lots of complexities.I'm happy to say that patent http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/mosaics? (http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/mosaics?CC=WO&NR=2013185802A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20131219&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP) is not the Ryger patent. And I agree: it's far too complicated.
Must hurry now, couldn't even find the time to read your whole post, Ken. I'll get back to you if there is anyting that I am allowed to comment on.

[Haufen]

Can you tell us when you'll be able / allowed to tell and explain the whole story / engine, Frits?

[Frits Overmars]

....the suggested inlet passage... has the capacity to draw air or air/fuel directly in, bypassing the crankcase.Great minds think alike, Ken. The picture below shows the onset of an experimental Modena engine, created by my friend, Modena technical director Roland Holzner.
312417

If you take this idea further and concentrate on eliminating its drawbacks, as Roland did, you'll get this:

312418 312419

That's right: 24/7 :D
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130867376#post1130867376

[Frits Overmars]

Can you tell us when you'll be able / allowed to tell and explain the whole story / engine, Frits?When the patent lawyers give the green light, I suppose. No idea when that will be.

[Martin1981]

70 rwhp out of 125ccm..... sounds like my rg 500 will do the job once the ryger technology is applied:drinknsin

Frits, how does the Ryger Engine sound?

[Frits Overmars]

70 rwhp out of 125ccm..... sounds like my rg 500 will do the job once the ryger technology is appliedIt would certainly put the RG-trannie to the test. 280 hp, that's 50 horses more than what the current 1000 cc MotoGP bikes have, with all their electronic gizmos, meant to keep their riders on the track and out of hospital.


Frits, how does the Ryger Engine sound?Like a regular 125 cc kart engine, until you rev it through the ceiling. Lovely sound!:wings:

[adegnes]

Could there be som variant of a pressure wave supercharger involved in this Ryger engine maybe?

[husaberg]

Could there be some variant of a pressure wave supercharger involved in this Ryger engine maybe?

http://www.superstreetonline.com/features/news/0705-sccp-comprex-compressor-supercharger/

That would fit with a lot of what Ryger posted and would also fit in with the simple.
http://papers.sae.org/2014-01-2136/
Yet it still leaves the space below the cylinder and the high revs.
I still think there a yoke and maybe a slipper piston hiding there.
As Ken pointed out there is some advantages to directly going into the cylinder and I note the original pic has what appears to be both a crankcase reed entry and a very high cylinder entry.
pics to follow......
312428

On a totally different subject

Great minds think alike, Ken. The picture below shows the onset of an experimental Modena engine, created by my friend, Modena technical director Roland Holzner.
312417

If you take this idea further and concentrate on eliminating its drawbacks, as Roland did, you'll get this:


If one used high inlet port, and if it was to open at a precise time when the exhaust gas was exiting the cylinder a vacuum would occur allowing a increase in direct cylinder filling and a clean exhaust.
Michel Kaden was the originator of this it's know as the Kadency effect.
It was used on Diesel engines including the Foden and the Commer.
Perhaps Frits could explain if this would allow a increase in cylinder filling on a high speed modern 2 stroke.
Was that what the kart engine you showed earlier was trying to use, achieve.

Yes I know that's how an expansion chamber works. lol
312433

[Frits Overmars]

If one used high inlet port, and if it was to open at a precise time when the exhaust gas was exiting the cylinder a vacuum would occur allowing a increase in direct cylinder filling and a clean exhaust. Michel Kaden was the originator of this it's know as the Kadency effect. It was used on Diesel engines including the Foden and the Commer.
The mans name was not Kaden but Kadenacy, not to be confused with Walter Kaaden of MZ fame. The Kadenacy effect depends on a pressure difference over both sides of a tube. This difference will accelerate a mass of gas in the tube until the pressure difference is zero. Because of inertia the mass will keep on moving, causing a low pressure at the former high-pressure side of the tube. This low pressure sucks in ambient gas. That's all folks.
All high-speed modern two-strokes are already using this effect; that is why the header is so important.

[Frits Overmars]

Someone found the actual Patent today.... It was not me either. So no more questions.Finding it does not relieve me from my non-disclosure commitment.
But to the best of my knowledge you are not secrecy-bound, so why not take the opportunity and make a lot of people here happy? :rolleyes:

[Flettner]

This is a fun game, Time/area/pressure, Time is decreasing, area is limited in an RSA type cylinder ( 14,000 rpm), so the only other perameter to change is pressure, that would be charge delivery pressure. Years ago Suzuki had system were a small hole was drilled high in the cylinder sending high pressure to the crank case, so when the charge was ready to enter the cylinder it was under conciderable pressure. power was had over a small rev range ( high up where blowdown time was running out ). Just a thought that this Ryger engine might be using some version of this system?
I still think that this engine ( seen in the Kart frame ) is indeed AN engine as Frits said ( one of the development prototypes ) but not THE engine. I think THE engine will be tucked up in that nice white van seen in the background, tested without a photo shoot, just saying.

[breezy]

this engine has nothing to do with the c i t s .... Basil Van Rooyen ?

[Frits Overmars]

Years ago Suzuki had system were a small hole was drilled high in the cylinder sending high pressure to the crank case, so when the charge was ready to enter the cylinder it was under considerable pressure.In 1962 Suzuki even gave the B-port (there were only two A-transfer ports and one B-port) the same timing as the exhaust port.
312434



I still think that this engine ( seen in the Kart frame ) is indeed AN engine as Frits said ( one of the development prototypes ) but not THE engine. I think THE engine will be tucked up in that nice white van seen in the background, tested without a photo shoot, just saying.Neil, the engine in the kart frame is the engine; nothing taken down or conceiled.
I have seen comments about me keeping my hand over the spark plug in one of the pictures. The simple reason was that I hadn't been in a kart for a long time and I tried to program my mind into remembering where the spark plug was, so I wouldn't ram my elbow against it.
312435

[husaberg]

In 1962 Suzuki even gave the B-port (there were only two A-transfer ports and one B-port) the same timing as the exhaust port.



This is a fun game, Time/area/pressure, Time is decreasing, area is limited in an RSA type cylinder ( 14,000 rpm), so the only other perameter to change is pressure, that would be charge delivery pressure. Years ago Suzuki had system were a small hole was drilled high in the cylinder sending high pressure to the crank case, so when the charge was ready to enter the cylinder it was under conciderable pressure. power was had over a small rev range ( high up where blowdown time was running out ). Just a thought that this Ryger engine might be using some version of this system?
.

Pretty sure that was taken/borrowed/delivered/Solen directly from MZ
I think I have a pic somewhere

The mans name was not Kaden but Kadenacy, not to be confused with Walter Kaaden of MZ fame. The Kadenacy effect depends on a pressure difference over both sides of a tube. This difference will accelerate a mass of gas in the tube until the pressure difference is zero. Because of inertia the mass will keep on moving, causing a low pressure at the former high-pressure side of the tube. This low pressure sucks in ambient gas. That's all folks.
All high-speed modern two-strokes are already using this effect; that is why the header is so important.
Oh yes Kadence Whoops........Got his first name right though.......50% a pass right?
I was meaning more directly using the effect as a crankcase bypass. Directly using the air or mixture. I guess in a cylinder reed they may do. I have never really though about it to tell you the truth.

[adegnes]

312435

Looks like something is piped into the reed block.




And here is the STA analysis with the better data, now we see the guys doing this were pretty close to the money.

I think I remember you saying that for any real power you'll have to be up at 198° exhaust - what do you think the outcome would be if I raised the exhaust to say 194-5, and followed with the transfers to 128-9? I guess what I'm really asking is where to go from here... The more I read, the more I feel whatever I modify is just a shot in the dark... Ignorance is bliss!
"stop whining and just buy engmod allready" is an acceptable answer.

[cotswold]

When the patent lawyers give the green light, I suppose. No idea when that will be.

Here is a picture of the Ryger cylinder. Explains it all. LOL

[Flettner]

In 1962 Suzuki even gave the B-port (there were only two A-transfer ports and one B-port) the same timing as the exhaust port.
312434


Neil, the engine in the kart frame is the engine; nothing taken down or conceiled.
I have seen comments about me keeping my hand over the spark plug in one of the pictures. The simple reason was that I hadn't been in a kart for a long time and I tried to program my mind into remembering where the spark plug was, so I wouldn't ram my elbow against it.
312435

I know, we are only guessing.
When I was building my Uniflow engine ( the one in the jet boat ) I needed to extend the oil capacity of the gearbox so I machined up a cylindrical housing and bolted it onto the gearbox. It was late and I taped the filler hole 12 x 1.25 without thinking, bugger could not find a bung to fit so I used a sparkplug. Well from that day on it seemed everyone that viewed the engine focused on that cylinder and spark plug as if it was something special to the way the engine worked ( I even put a lead on it in the end ). Nevermind that the real sparkplugs were in the centre of the engine. I remember thinking if I had something to hide then a red herring like this would be a good side track. So now I see red herrings everywhere, I don't even like fish.

[wobbly]

Well here is what is easily possible with this cylinder - all the ports are widened and lifted ( except the boost port ) and the stagger
increased to help widen the power spread ( no PV ),and raised peak power to 13500.
This keeps the Ex timing in the range for good superposition resonance tuning as well to help with no PV.
Lots of detail in the mods, and that would need a full sim run in EngMod, ( like duct exit area etc ) but that doesnt happen for nothing.

[TZ350]

I guess what I'm really asking is where to go from here... The more I read, the more I feel whatever I modify is just a shot in the dark... "stop whining and just buy engmod already" is an acceptable answer.

EngMod2T ... it is a good answer if you can, not only do you get a proper guide to engine design from the blowdown and port STA's.

But being able to watch the wave action of the pipe and be able to make adjustments to the pipe design that gets the max depression swinging around BDC for the best power spread before you even start cutting metal is pure gold.

[Muciek]

Changing the subject from Ryger engine and little Rsa cylinder, here's brand new Rz500

http://izismile.com/2015/05/27/a_30_year_old_bike_that_is_still_12_pics.html

Anybody can share some stories of racing or tuning this one?

[Larry Wiechman]

Is there a support forum for EngMod2T? Am I looking at it now? Seems like a steep learning curve without some clues as to what's important, and what's not.

[Frits Overmars]

Here is a picture of the Ryger cylinder. Explains it all. LOL
312440 312441
Yep, this is the cylinder, and here is what Harry Ryger wrote:
Engine check today after numerous testruns, including the testrun by Frits Overmars.
No carbon build up on the piston at all, no wear of the cylinder wall. All bearings within the nominal dimension. We’re happy !

[190mech]

Ryger thoughts;
What if there is a ring shaped secondary pumping piston,guided by a long cylinder skirt and case walls,running opposite direction of the combustion piston,perhaps driven by eccentrics on the crank wheels.Bottom end could be oil bathed ,4T type piston(oil control ring at bottom of skirt),FOS annular transfer ports..Maybe Ive had a few too many drinks tonight...

[Sketchy_Racer]

Is it just me, or does it look like the piston is quite a long way down the barrel with no ports yet opening?

[Grumph]

Is it just me, or does it look like the piston is quite a long way down the barrel with no ports yet opening?

Carefully posed i'd say, camera angle and depth of focus included.

The apparently known givens appear to be (note all the qualifications...) that it still has a functioning exhaust port and pipe as normal 2 stroke so the exhaust port still has to open somewhere around half stroke. That there is what appears to be a carburettor on the upper of what would look like two intake reed housings...If the lower has been made into a dedicated 24/7 intake, the returns would appear to be better than expected. Bonus points there Frits...
The "puke tank" as someone called it may possibly indicate a plain bearing lower end - which would certainly help the big end live - but which would indicate it may be running without crankcase compression...At this point I'd remind us of Mr Thiel's conclusion that it was only what was in the transfers that made it into the cylinder...Maybe the crankcase pulses are one side of a comprex style pressure wave supercharger ?
conclusion - I have no real idea....waiting like the rest of you.

But husa, forget the scotch crank, no way would one live at those revs.

[jonny quest]

Is this Ryger engine legal for racing in the 125 kart class?

If that is a pic of a piston with some time on it, I would hazzard a guess water is involved somehow.

[husaberg]

Carefully posed i'd say, camera angle and depth of focus included.

The apparently known givens appear to be (note all the qualifications...) that it still has a functioning exhaust port and pipe as normal 2 stroke so the exhaust port still has to open somewhere around half stroke. That there is what appears to be a carburettor on the upper of what would look like two intake reed housings...If the lower has been made into a dedicated 24/7 intake, the returns would appear to be better than expected. Bonus points there Frits...
The "puke tank" as someone called it may possibly indicate a plain bearing lower end - which would certainly help the big end live - but which would indicate it may be running without crankcase compression...At this point I'd remind us of Mr Thiel's conclusion that it was only what was in the transfers that made it into the cylinder...Maybe the crankcase pulses are one side of a comprex style pressure wave supercharger ?
conclusion - I have no real idea....waiting like the rest of you.

But husa, forget the scotch crank, no way would one live at those revs.
Putting aside the comprex.

if one was to put the ex port low and the transfers above it you could have uni flow take full advantage of the kadencey
The ex port would be open only during the initial part of the compression phase.
but how?
One way would be by having a two sided cupped piston.
The bore would be formed by the inside dimensions of the top portion of the cupped piston
the lower half would be thinner walled so it would be able to provide an above atmospheric pressure say by 40%.
The cylinder head needs to be able to modified to accommodate the reversed skirt at tdc
The crankshaft would need to be able to provide only up and down movement
With no side thrust it would also have to be able to be isolated from the crankcase,with a round rod for simple sealing a rombic drive or a cross head or a scotch yoke all do this.
With a linkage rod system dwell can be designed in where ever it is needed or conversely dialled out where it is not wanted.
heat transfer will be better as there is no gudgeon in the piston.
The cylinder seal would be better as there is no side thrust.
Friction would also be reduced

Re the revs no Greg according to the stuff I have seen not only will a scotch yoke do all this it will also operate efficiently at stratospheric revs.

In fact a company in Aussie have been developing and have spent over 35 million dollars playng with them with excellent results for years.
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0948
I am unsure now if what I have seen is the actual Ryger or not now, but this is a very crude rendition of what I have been playing with before I even knew anything of the Ryger.
It is based on the burke and something I seen in the KG Draper 2 stroke design and tuning.
You will need to use you imagination a bit as I draw shit and have left some features out and glossed over a few others.
The ports are uncovered buy windows and slots cut into the piston skirt.
312447

[adegnes]

Well here is what is easily possible with this cylinder - all the ports are widened and lifted ( except the boost port ) and the stagger
increased to help widen the power spread ( no PV ),and raised peak power to 13500.
This keeps the Ex timing in the range for good superposition resonance tuning as well to help with no PV.
Lots of detail in the mods, and that would need a full sim run in EngMod, ( like duct exit area etc ) but that doesnt happen for nothing.

Thank you pnce again great sir!


EngMod2T ... it is a good answer if you can, not only do you get a proper guide to engine design from the blowdown and port STA's.

But being able to watch the wave action of the pipe and be able to make adjustments to the pipe design that gets the max depression swinging around BDC for the best power spread before you even start cutting metal is pure gold.

I'll start saving up for it!

[peewee]

Peewee, you might know this, but don't ever clean up an aluminum casting by glass-bead-blasting if you plan on welding on it, or if you do, go over the to-be-welded area with a rotary file and skim off a little metal. Some of the glass bead will imbed itself in aluminum, and will drive a welder nuts; you can see the shiny bits under some magnification. Piston ring manufacturers have put out bulletins warning against cleaning up old pistons with glass-bead. (Have I said this here previously? Probably several times!).
:violin:

did you say you were a welder ? i cant remember. if you are i could use some pointers. this thing is testing my patience. soon as you lite up on it you get black shit in the puddle and it all goes down hill from there. grind the top with carbide bur then a dremel with stainless steel wire wheel then wipe with acetone is what i been doing and it helps alittle but not much. alot of what i welded had to come back out as it was so contaminated. 2 steps forward and 1.5 steps back. did make alittle progress but its a slow go. out of argon so im done for a few days

[TZ350]

Is there a support forum for EngMod2T? Am I looking at it now? Seems like a steep learning curve without some clues as to what's important, and what's not.

I am not sure if there is a dedicated forum, but a few people on here are familiar with it and if you get a copy then I expect you will get all the help here that you need.

EngMod2T is broken up into a number of separate programs and at first I found it confusing, but you use them in order, 1st develop the engine model - 2nd simulate the engines performance - 3rd review the results. Obvious really :facepalm: and it becomes simple to use when you get your head around it :laugh: and there are already some useful engine files like TZ250, RS125, RZ350 etc that you can practice on and cannibalise for your own motor.

312453

EngMod2T has three main sections. and you use them in order.

1, Dat2T is where you enter the data that describes the motor and pipe.
2, 2T is run next and uses the Dat2T data to simulate the motors performance.
3, Post2T is where you get to select and graph the simulated results.

Movie2T is for viewing the wave action in the pipe. The pressure waves inside the motor can be viewed while the simulation is running. There is a Turbo and Compressor section that I have not ventured into yet.

Anyway if you can, get your own copy, its worth hours and hours of saved time and money.

[adegnes]

I am not sure if there is a dedicated forum, but a few people on here are familiar with it and if you get a copy then I expect you will get all the help here that you need.

At first I found it confusing because EngMod2T is broken up into a number of separate programs , you use them in order, 1 develop the engine model - 2 simulate the engines performance - 3 review the results. It becomes simple to use when you get your head around it and there are already some useful engine files like TZ250, RS125, RZ350 etc that you can cannibalise for your own motor.

312453

EngMod2T has three main sections. and you use them in order.

Dat2T is where you enter the data that describes the motor and pipe.
2T is run next and uses the Dat2T data to simulate the motors performance.
Post2T is where you get to look at the simulated results.

Movie2T is for viewing the wave action in the pipe. The pressure waves inside the motor can be viewed while the simulation is running. There is a Turbo and Compressor section that I have not ventured into yet.

Anyway if you can, get your own copy, its worth hours and hours of saved time and money.


I'm getting it!... well first I'll have to get a new computer running windows and before that the money for both the computer and the software...

[JanBros]

Is it just me, or does it look like the piston is quite a long way down the barrel with no ports yet opening?

I alreay thought something was weird but couldn't lay my finger on it. guess you just did.

[husaberg]

Yep, this is the cylinder, and here is what Harry Ryger wrote:


Is it just me, or does it look like the piston is quite a long way down the barrel with no ports yet opening?


I alreay thought something was weird but couldn't lay my finger on it. guess you just did.

Look more to the left the reed entry seems pretty high................doesn't it .....lol
312440 312441

312455

[breezy]

Is it just me, or does it look like the piston is quite a long way down the barrel with no ports yet opening?

maybe the combustion chamber in the head is moved up and down within the cylinder?? Has Lennart Van den Doel , had some input to this invention??

[husaberg]

Simple control of dwell and linear motion.
312456

[Frits Overmars]

Simple control of dwell and linear motion.
312456Husa, I'm afraid you caught a bad case of fourstrokingitis. Get well soon.

[husaberg]

Husa, I'm afraid you caught a bad case of fourstrokingitis. Get well soon.

Yes but you have to admit that it would be kind of ironic to use their own popit wigit treachery against them to allow control of the port timing, by proxy.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=312400&d=1432869921
I like the old steam engines too.
312466312467312468

[senso]

It can be just as the Gas Gas EC125 cylinder/head, the combustion chamber is recessed into the cylinder some 5-6mm, so that can look like it has pretty low timmings, when its just the deck that is not really in the top of the cylinder, but a bit bellow.

[monkeyfumi]

Frits, are the new/different features of the ryger engine something that could be adapted to other existing two-stroke engines?

[peewee]

It can be just as the Gas Gas EC125 cylinder/head, the combustion chamber is recessed into the cylinder some 5-6mm, so that can look like it has pretty low timmings, when its just the deck that is not really in the top of the cylinder, but a bit bellow.

like this one ? im guessing why the rygar pics looks to have a low piston is because the cylinder bore sits down in the casting which gives the appearance of the piston sitting farther down

[pugs]

Anyway, concerning Ryger engine, I tend to believe the basic concept works like this...

Just add the cylinder reed and keep the transfer port as a additional mixture storage (& or inlet), leave the pumping/supercharging effect to that cylindrical stuff beside the reed housing, then add another mumbo jumbo details (& connectors) to make it work (stuff that I don't want to think about right now)...
As Frits said, much simpler, right? :)

I think, it really could take some space back from the fourstroker..
It really could just me mumbling some crap though... :shutup:

[Flettner]

Anyway, concerning Ryger engine, I tend to believe the basic concept works like this...

Just add the cylinder reed and keep the transfer port as a additional mixture storage (& or inlet), leave the pumping/supercharging effect to that cylindrical stuff beside the reed housing, then add another mumbo jumbo details (& connectors) to make it work (stuff that I don't want to think about right now)...
As Frits said, much simpler, right? :)

I think, it really could take some space back from the fourstroker..
It really could just me mumbling some crap though... :shutup:

That's interesting, what are we looking at? LPG transfer port injection?The white thing, pumping bellows?

[Flettner]

OK, I give in Frits, this game is no fun any more. Back to the open ended sliding sleeve engine I think, just need to make a piston to suit and it's almost ready for a fire up ( with standard reed sysem ).
If it makes 70HP I'll take some half assed photos, so as you can't quite see how it works:laugh:

[husaberg]

OK, I give in Frits, this game is no fun any more. Back to the open ended sliding sleeve engine I think, just need to make a piston to suit and it's almost ready for a fire up ( with standard reed sysem ).
If it makes 70HP I'll take some half assed photos, so as you can't quite see how it works:laugh:

Maybe if we all chip in we can pay Frits fine.........

OK assuming it is simple.
to increase the cylinder filling if the air is first compressed it takes up less space and can also enter faster.
Giving some additional time for atmospheric filling to do the rest.
I have already posted this pic.
Note how the inlet air flow is continuous, no stop start losing and gaining inertia.
312479 this is a bigger pic only sideways 312480

[Frits Overmars]

Anyway, concerning Ryger engine, I tend to believe the basic concept works like this...
Just add the cylinder reed and keep the transfer port as a additional mixture storage (& or inlet), leave the pumping/supercharging effect to that cylindrical stuff beside the reed housing, then add another mumbo jumbo details (& connectors) to make it work (stuff that I don't want to think about right now)... As Frits said, much simpler, right? Your idea looks rather simple compared to some suggestions I've seen here. But your pumping cylinder is moved by crankcase pressure alone, right?
It may function at 3.000 rpm, but the Ryger revs past 30.000 if you keep your foot down (which I did the first time I gave it some throttle, because I expected 125 cc kart-like acceleration, not the rocket launch I got) .

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, are the new/different features of the ryger engine something that could be adapted to other existing two-stroke engines?Yep.
Here are two links showing the standard VM 125-engine.

VM 125 M 02/B catalogue: http://www.vmmotor.com/www/vmmotor/fs/catalogue-vm125-m02-beng.pdf

VM homologation: http://mach1motorsport.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/homologering-vm.pdf

I didn't count them but I estimate that in the Ryger engine 98% of these parts are used unmodified, including the cylinder head.

[pugs]

That's interesting, what are we looking at? LPG transfer port injection?The white thing, pumping bellows?

That's not mine, but yep, LPG transfer port injection and some passive compressor..


Your idea looks rather simple compared to some suggestions I've seen here. But your pumping cylinder is moved by crankcase pressure alone, right?
It may function at 3.000 rpm, but the Ryger revs past 30.000 if you keep your foot down (which I did the first time I gave it some throttle, because I expected 125 cc kart-like acceleration, not the rocket launch I got) .

Well it's a crap then... :lol:
Btw, not mine, not my idea, just scraping the web actually :)

But judging from the way you wrote,
"your pumping cylinder is moved by crankcase pressure alone, right?"

looks like it's indeed a pumping cylinder? :scratch:
Let's change it to another high tech/more progressive stuff then.. Comprex? Timed compressor (no idea if it's even existed)? Or thing like Husa posted above (whatever it'll be called)? Or... dunno, looks like i'm too drunk now... :drinkup:

[adegnes]

Your idea looks rather simple compared to some suggestions I've seen here. But your pumping cylinder is moved by crankcase pressure alone, right?
It may function at 3.000 rpm, but the Ryger revs past 30.000 if you keep your foot down (which I did the first time I gave it some throttle, because I expected 125 cc kart-like acceleration, not the rocket launch I got) .

!!! This has to be some clever stuff indeed.

[breezy]

OK, I give in Frits, this game is no fun any more. Back to the open ended sliding sleeve engine I think, just need to make a piston to suit and it's almost ready for a fire up ( with standard reed sysem ).
If it makes 70HP I'll take some half assed photos, so as you can't quite see how it works:laugh: i cant wait to see this set up, may be you could also try injection..... inject fuel into the cylinder from the head and use the rest of the engine as a air pump, backed up by a compressed air system.. i was around a friends unit yesterday and almost jumped out my skin when the air compressor kicked in , amazing the speed of air tools.

[Grumph]

Thanks Frits for posting the links to the standard VM motor. I don't see any current kart stuff these days so it made an interesting comparison to the Ryger - as i assume you intended...
A lot has been added to the right hand side, including apparently,the ignition, which has freed up the left end of the crank. In the front on shot of the Kart installation it is possible to see something on the left end of the crank. What it is of course we are still guessing...It appears to be a black circular piece to my old eyes. I hope that's not just a standard cover...
Crank driven compressor housing ? The only induction source visible is through the carb so I can't see how it would fit into the scheme of things.
I'm prepared to be patient but it's fun watching husa work up a froth.

[wobbly]

None of this speculation addresses the main mechanical wizardry - 30,000 rpm from a 125cc single.
Thats exactly twice what we see in a KZ2 engine with 54,5mm stroke, and even that takes a huge amount of development time to achieve.

[jonny quest]

It's definitely acheived from less friction and pumping losses. Plus if that's a true view of an unaltered piston with run time... I believe the crankcase isn't used anymore as a pump. Transfers are directing mixture straight in on top of piston.

Maybe the idle is high enough where expansion chamber is doing the work of crankcase now.

[Grumph]

None of this speculation addresses the main mechanical wizardry - 30,000 rpm from a 125cc single.
Thats exactly twice what we see in a KZ2 engine with 54,5mm stroke, and even that takes a huge amount of development time to achieve.

True. A plain big end could be made to take those revs - but the rod and pins would have to be pretty exotic. The piston is the big question of course - does it have rings ? Does it even need them at those revs ? Rapid solidification alloys ? Aluminium Beryllium alloys ?

How long has that engine run so far ? Is that classified Frits ?

[breezy]

None of this speculation addresses the main mechanical wizardry - 30,000 rpm from a 125cc single.
Thats exactly twice what we see in a KZ2 engine with 54,5mm stroke, and even that takes a huge amount of development time to achieve.

i can only think of model ic engines and electric motors which achieve such rpm levels

[wobbly]

30,000 rpm is 55M/sec, we are living on the outer edge of reliability at 30M/sec with 54.5mm stroke right now with exactly the same engine config.
The view down the cylinder would appear to indicate no ports are open at least 25mm of stroke,so the real clever
part of the equation isnt the ports or piston or pipe or whatever - its how the reciprocating mechanism is jigged to run that high.

[Flettner]

Frits, what is the HP at 30,000 RPM? What BMEP at those revs?
Ok, I can't help myself, I still want to play.

[speedpro]

I tried revving my MB100 to only 20,000rpm once. It didn't end well. 30,000rpm is getting up there. We've had my 4T 125 twin up to 19,000rpm indicated. Sitting next to an engine doing even more would take balls, and probably a kevlar vest.

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, what is the HP at 30,000 RPM? What BMEP at those revs?
Ok, I can't help myself, I still want to play.Sorry Neil, I'm not yet at liberty to answer direct questions like these (and there is 50 % redundancy in that question :D).

[husaberg]

Thanks Frits for posting the links to the standard VM motor. I don't see any current kart stuff these days so it made an interesting comparison to the Ryger - as i assume you intended...
A lot has been added to the right hand side, including apparently,the ignition, which has freed up the left end of the crank. In the front on shot of the Kart installation it is possible to see something on the left end of the crank. What it is of course we are still guessing...It appears to be a black circular piece to my old eyes. I hope that's not just a standard cover...
Crank driven compressor housing ? The only induction source visible is through the carb so I can't see how it would fit into the scheme of things.
I'm prepared to be patient but it's fun watching husa work up a froth.

A comprex compressor would just need a simple drive much like a push bike dynamo.It has little friction.
I think it may work just to lower the pumping losses rather than a supercharger
http://images.gizmag.com/hero/velospeeder.jpg
312483
Neil and I both mentioned this.
Assuming I am right (Big ask lol), on the steam engine tech sliding induction it would only need a very short skirt it would have less inertia it would also have no side thrust.
It may be only riding effectively on the rings.
Plain bearings as you say would be fine.
I will be interesting to see what comes out in the wash.
312482

Greg you are patient, because you did you masonry apprenticeship with Mosses


Sorry Neil, I'm not yet at liberty to answer direct questions like these.

The view down the cylinder would appear to indicate no ports are open at least 25mm of stroke,so the real clever
RE the steam tech picture I posted, theoretically could that sort of thing work on a two stroke and make decent power?
The air flow seams pretty constant surely that must help a little.
312491
312492

[ken seeber]

Ryger Revisiting. Looking at the pics again:
1. Oil catch can/separator and vent, few hoses here and there
2. Piston has no engraving on crown, therefore a custom made unit
3. Spacer plate under barrel (I think this is the key to incorporating a new gizmo)
4. Reed housing still present as on VM engine. Maybe just for convenience to use existing crankcases. (could be completely blanked off)
5. Connection pipe between the old and new reed housings. Yes or no? Could be the bottom one, if it was wet sumped, is really going to the catch can. The top one, then going to a pressure activated fuel pump.
6. External of cylinder very much the same as a VM cylinder, other than the Ryger logo, inlet side stud bosses are higher and reed valve housing, with a carb bore axis that appears to be a bit lower than reed centreline. Probably got a Czech/Dutch version or long lost cousin of Neil :drinknsinto make the cylinder, possible scabbing key internal sand cores etc from VM
7. Deeply recessed and presumably spigotted into cylinder squish zone (as indicated by others) cylinder head.
8. Gearbox seems to have a regular breather, therefore possibly not connected to the engine lubrication.
9. Frits reckons the head is standard plus around 98% of all the bits. Given this, then because of the fact that it is spigotted, then the bore & stroke are the nominal 54 * 54
10. Ryger staters on deracehelden forum (with a really dodgy translation…. to me at least) that main bearings are plain, not sure if he also included the bigend, maybe there isn’t one?
11. Ignition coil looks standard, Grumph have I missed something??

Anything else fellers?

312485


The pic shows an overlay of a scotch crank mechanism onto the crankcase drawing. To me, with the necessary material required to house the mechanism, then there is not much chance to fit this in. Can’t see anything of this size on the main pic, but the angle of the dangle is such that you can’t see this area, which would be below the old reed block housing.

BTW Frits, how did the Modena 24/7 and, separately, the direct inlet go? They certainly looked like 2 different concepts.

[TZ350]

Anyway, concerning Ryger engine, I tend to believe the basic concept works like this...
312486312487


That's interesting, what are we looking at? the white thing, pumping bellows?


Your idea looks rather simple compared to some suggestions I've seen here. But your pumping cylinder is moved by crankcase pressure alone, right? It may function at 3.000 rpm, but the Ryger revs past 30.000.

Pumping Bellows are a possibility, 30,000 rpm is only 500 Hz, mid woofer speakers can manage 500 Hz all day long.

6,000 rpm is 100 Hz, 12,000 rpm is 200 Hz and 24,000 is 400 Hz so all well within the range of mid woofer speaker type bellows. The bellows would be quite easy to drive from an alternator and the driving force would automatically increase as the power from the alternator increases with increased rpm.

I have often thought of driving a rotary valve like shuttle in a push pull arrangement using two voice coils driven by pulses from an alternator. The output from the driving source could easily be timed to the inlet cycle and with a bit of electrical trickery one could very easily have variable inlet duration and positioning in the inlet cycle.

I had also thought of pumping bellows at the end of a plenum but that would be supercharging, or would it be if they were driven by pulses from the exhaust pipe (chamber). Even looked at a Comprex compressor type arrangement too.

The timing (variable) of the pulse from the electrically driven bellows could be arranged to arrive at the inlet port proper just as the inlet was cracking open or maybe just as reversion in the inlet was starting to happen.

It might also be possible to drive two contra rotating rotary valves with stepping motors and a small ECU to control them in such a way that varies the inlet duration and the open position on the inlet cycle. This could be a fly by wire throttle too.

But don't go expecting to see a Team ESE bike with any of this stuff on it, any time soon .... :D

[Flettner]

Sorry Neil, I'm not yet at liberty to answer direct questions like these.

I guess I know that, can't blame me for asking though.

[TZ350]

Page ... 1190

[Grumph]

Ryger Revisiting. Looking at the pics again:
1. Oil catch can/separator and vent, few hoses here and there
2. Piston has no engraving on crown, therefore a custom made unit
3. Spacer plate under barrel (I think this is the key to incorporating a new gizmo)
4. Reed housing still present as on VM engine. Maybe just for convenience to use existing crankcases. (could be completely blanked off)
5. Connection pipe between the old and new reed housings. Yes or no? Could be the bottom one, if it was wet sumped, is really going to the catch can. The top one, then going to a pressure activated fuel pump.
6. External of cylinder very much the same as a VM cylinder, other than the Ryger logo, inlet side stud bosses are higher and reed valve housing, with a carb bore axis that appears to be a bit lower than reed centreline. Probably got a Czech/Dutch version or long lost cousin of Neil :drinknsinto make the cylinder, possible scabbing key internal sand cores etc from VM
7. Deeply recessed and presumably spigotted into cylinder squish zone (as indicated by others) cylinder head.
8. Gearbox seems to have a regular breather, therefore possibly not connected to the engine lubrication.
9. Frits reckons the head is standard plus around 98% of all the bits. Given this, then because of the fact that it is spigotted, then the bore & stroke are the nominal 54 * 54
10. Ryger staters on deracehelden forum (with a really dodgy translation…. to me at least) that main bearings are plain, not sure if he also included the bigend, maybe there isn’t one?
11. Ignition coil looks standard, Grumph have I missed something??

Anything else fellers?

The pic shows an overlay of a scotch crank mechanism onto the crankcase drawing. To me, with the necessary material required to house the mechanism, then there is not much chance to fit this in. Can’t see anything of this size on the main pic, but the angle of the dangle is such that you can’t see this area, which would be below the old reed block housing.

BTW Frits, how did the Modena 24/7 and, separately, the direct inlet go? They certainly looked like 2 different concepts.

You'd know more than me about the ignition - but looking at the primary cover on the VM parts book, there's nothing extra mounted there, it's blank. Yes, I assume the coil mounts there on the studs as a convenient place to put it - But there is a complete extra piece added there - and it looks to me as though the crank comes out through it. I think I see a small PVL style rotor and magnets...WTF are you going to use for 30,000 sparks/min ? Compression ignition ? Piston doesn't look like it. If it's not ignition, it would be a convenient spot to drive an oil pump.
It's all a mystery to me....When was the tacho last calibrated ?

[peewee]

wobbly just a fast question about that cylinder im welding. would i be better off putting studs in the cylinder and fastening the head on with nuts rather than the original bolts that screw into the cylinder ? wasnt sure if the heat has weakened the threads and they wont hold the 20-25ftlb or so of torque without stripping the threads

thought of heating one of them old yamaha cylinders and torq some bolts into the cylinder and see if they strip the cylinder threads. might give me a good idea what ill be up against with this other cylinder

[wobbly]

If you are worried about the thread strength then simply run Helicoils into them.

[Flettner]

Can some of the transfers ( set high as the exhaust ) also become exhaust blowdown ports first then become transfers later in the cycle?
Talking Ryger engine

[Grumph]

Can some of the transfers ( set high as the exhaust ) also become exhaust blowdown ports first then become transfers later in the cycle?
Talking Ryger engine

IMO only if you have a moving sleeve...and some good cooling.

[husaberg]

You'd know more than me about the ignition - but looking at the primary cover on the VM parts book, there's nothing extra mounted there, it's blank. Yes, I assume the coil mounts there on the studs as a convenient place to put it - But there is a complete extra piece added there - and it looks to me as though the crank comes out through it. I think I see a small PVL style rotor and magnets...WTF are you going to use for 30,000 sparks/min ? Compression ignition ? Piston doesn't look like it. If it's not ignition, it would be a convenient spot to drive an oil pump.
It's all a mystery to me....When was the tacho last calibrated ?

Luc Foekcma makes an ignition systemcapable of over 20000 rpm, he is also involved in the Project.

https://www.facebook.com/luc.foekema/media_set?set=a.1761099246360.71824.1805454134&type=3Special



Can some of the transfers ( set high as the exhaust ) also become exhaust blowdown ports first then become transfers later in the cycle?
Talking Ryger engine

If the Exhaust ports were/are at totally different heights as the transfers you don't need to though..............
In a conventional 2 stroke the cylinder area at bdc is rather jam packed with ports.
312501
In the Frits FOS system there is a fair degree of separation.
312497 312500312499312498

Maybe it was actually the wrong way around?
Why do the exhaust ports need to be so high up the cylinder?
If the cylinder can be effectively filled and emptied.
312496

[TZ350]

312506

The Beast has come to the end of its road so I ripped its heart out.

312505

The EFI thing was beginning to come good, with the part throttle runs looking Ok but the Beast had developed a habit of drinking its own gearbox oil and filling the workshop with clouds of smoke.

A sure sign the main bearings have gone (I brought the special phenolic brgs second hand of Ebay in 1988 for a $1) and the crank flopping around was causing the gearbox oil seal to behave like an oil pump. The same problem Chambers had with Av's bike recently.

312503

The flywheel which was glued and screwed onto a GP hub seems to have held up, so that is a good thing.

312502

Peeking through the center fuel injector hole I can see a crack in the piston skirt. A dab of weld will fix that.

312504

And it looks like something small has been rattling around in the combustion chamber. Guess I will find out more when I get the motor apart but the piston and head will clean up Ok, the cylinder is still good. The piston will go back in, 2T's are so easy and cheap to work on.

When I have rebuilt the engine its going into my new NSR MC18 frame (that came from Husaberg) until I finish the air cooled RGV cylinder engine that I have been building for it. The Beasts old rolling chassis is scheduled to go to a new home. Where there may be a supercharged 100 in its future.

[Forgi]

Well there is two things that I can't understand.

It can be easily resolved that the crackcase to be separated and lubricated like in a 4T. The easiest resolution a scotch yoke crankshaft, only the con rod has to be changed and the original crankshaft can stay. It is hard to explain in english so here is a simple pic.

But the first what I can't understand (if it is wrong or right) that what makes the piston, the ringe and cylinder wall lubricated, as in the 4T neither the compression ring nor the upper part of the piston and the valves are lubricated. It's OK that the gasoline make them cool and lubricated but is it enough? As you say that there is no oil in the gasoline.

The other thing that I can't understand if the cylinder hasn't been modified how the hell the rev and the power could rise so much? The EGT has to be rise dramatically to reach the peak 17K instead of 13K. Also instead of the avarage 500-600 degrees have to be 1300-1500 degrees. It is obviously impossible!

[Sketchy_Racer]

So i've come to the conclusion that the Ryger 70hp special is nothing more than a test to see what us wacky internet heros would come up with for a bit of a laugh.

I can't figure out how the thing mechanically stays together at 30k rpm let alone the thermal issues that ought to arise with that power density out of such a little motor, or for that matter how there is enough time to get the air/fuel mixture into the cylinder in around 1 millisecond!

And oh god imagine how many G the piston is under during acceleration/deceleration from 55m/s


:scratch::scratch::scratch::scratch:

[Frits Overmars]

BTW Frits, how did the Modena 24/7 and, separately, the direct inlet go? They certainly looked like 2 different concepts.Didn't I already tell? I thought I did. The direct inlet version evolved into the 24/7 version which produces 10% more power than the regular Modena engine (with the same obligatory 30 mm carb, pipe, compression volume etc.)
BTW Ken, nice analysis.

[Frits Overmars]

So i've come to the conclusion that the Ryger 70hp special is nothing more than a test to see what us wacky internet heros would come up with for a bit of a laugh.
I can't figure out how the thing mechanically stays together at 30k rpm let alone the thermal issues that ought to arise with that power density out of such a little motor, or for that matter how there is enough time to get the air/fuel mixture into the cylinder in around 1 millisecond! There are a lot of things in life that I can't figure out but that doesn't mean they can't exist. But I can say that I won't lie to you folks unless it's April 1.

[husaberg]

There are a lot of things in life that I can't figure out but that doesn't mean they can't exist. But I can say that I won't lie to you folks unless it's April 1.
Science is unravelling puzzles.




RE the steam tech picture I posted, theoretically could that sort of thing work on a two stroke and make decent power?
The air flow seams pretty constant surely that must help a little.
312491
312492

312510

[Frits Overmars]

RE the steam tech picture I posted, theoretically could that sort of thing work on a two stroke and make decent power?
312491If you advance the slider movement by 90° from the present phase, it could run as a two-stroke.
Attainable power would depend on dimensions and revs. The 120 rpm in your picture may be somewhat scanty :wait:.

[Frits Overmars]

It just turned Wednesday June 3 in Thailand: Jan Thiel, Happy 75th Birthday!

[136kg136ps]

Re:30,000 rpm ignition.Multiple pickups would solve that issue,no?2 triggers would make the cdi "see"15,000.

When Frits says simple I thought along the lines of a boost bottle type apparatus but using crankcase pressure on a diaphragm to increase the pressure of the charge in the vessel.Even a mechanically driven diaphragm.

Wobbly was right though in that the most astounding thing is the rpm and how to make the moving parts sustainable. Simple but amazing.

[Frits Overmars]

wobbly just a fast question about that cylinder im welding. would i be better off putting studs in the cylinder and fastening the head on with nuts rather than the original bolts that screw into the cylinder ? wasnt sure if the heat has weakened the threads and they wont hold the 20-25ftlb or so of torque without stripping the threadsStuds are better. If you tighten a head bolt, you generate a tension force in the bolt and a rubbing movement between the male and female threads at the same time. Especially the female thread in the light-alloy cylinder body doesn't like that.
If you use studs, tightening the nuts will put the same tension force in the studs, but at this stage there is no movement between the male thread of the studs and the female thread in the cylinder body any more, so no wear.

[Frits Overmars]

Re:30,000 rpm ignition.Multiple pickups would solve that issue, no? 2 triggers would make the cdi "see"15,000.2 pickups and 2 triggers would give a total of 120.000 pulses per minute. That would really overstrain the CDI.
You could use two CDIs, each with its own pickup, and one trigger on a shaft, running with half the crankshaft rpm (elsewhere known as a camshaft, yuk)
but that would violate the KISS-principle.

[136kg136ps]

2 pickups and 2 triggers would give a total of 120.000 pulses per minute. That would really overstrain the CDI.
You could use two CDIs, each with its own pickup, and one trigger on a shaft, running with half the crankshaft rpm (elsewhere known as a camshaft, yuk)
but that would violate the KISS-principle.

Not all shots in the dark hit the mark I guess:).And we certainly wouldn't want to resort to backwards thinking 4 stroke technology.....
Happy birthday Jan!!!!!!

[breezy]

Took the Ryger-kart for a little spin today.
God Almighty!
312179 312180 312181

I've got a fairly good idea of what to expect from a 125 cc kart. But this....
The revcounter could hardly keep up with the crankshaft but in any case it revved much higher than a normal 125 and I reached the end of the straight-away much quicker. What a rocketship!


"what a rocketship"...... well, that I recon says it all.... its a rocket engine!!!:2guns:

Frits, will this engine be produced by Ryger, or will the patent/production rights be sold off to the highest bidder?

[Flettner]

"what a rocketship"...... well, that I recon says it all.... it a rocket engine!!!:2guns:

Frits, will this engine be produced by Ryger, or will the patent/production rights be sold off to the highest bidder?

And when will it be tied up ( patent ) so we may know whats happening inside? When can you tip that can of worms over for us to sort through?

A free piston engine runs at very high ( rpm? ) oscilations, they have rings and the pistons are subject to high inertia, they work.

[senso]

I dont know what type of ignition is being used, but even using an analog CDI its not too hard to have two separe high voltage coils in the stator charging two independent capacitors and then when there is the trigger you fire one and then the other.
Or having two high voltage coils charging the capacitor and using a single capacitor and firing transistor/SCR.
With a digital its even easier to do that.

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, will this engine be produced by Ryger, or will the patent/production rights be sold off to the highest bidder?I'm not at liberty to answer that.

[Frits Overmars]

And when will it be tied up ( patent ) so we may know whats happening inside? When can you tip that can of worms over for us to sort through?Asked and answered, Your Honour: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130868700#post1130868700


A free piston engine runs at very high ( rpm? ) oscilations, they have rings and the pistons are subject to high inertia, they work.I can envisage a free piston engine surrounded by coils, acting as a generator and driving an electromotor. But that's for next month.

[husaberg]

If you advance the slider movement by 90° from the present phase, it could run as a two-stroke.
Attainable power would depend on dimensions and revs. The 120 rpm in your picture may be somewhat scanty :wait:.

But I had my heart set on maintaining ever detail including the colours...........:innocent:
It does kind of achieve a more continuous flow than the dirty old crankcase design though, Granted it does also fail miserably on the KISS principal.
Happy birthday Jan.
75 Not out is nearly more than the English team scored at the cricket world Cup.

[Flettner]

Asked and answered, Your Honour: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130868700#post1130868700

I can envisage a free piston engine surrounded by coils, acting as a generator and driving an electromotor. But that's for next month.

I did read that, soooo no time frame on a green light yet? Are we there yet, are we there yet, I'll just keep asking:laugh:

[Flettner]

Asked and answered, Your Honour: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130868700#post1130868700

I can envisage a free piston engine surrounded by coils, acting as a generator and driving an electromotor. But that's for next month.

Initially when I heard about this engine ( 30,000 rpm ) I assumed a free piston engine.
You know, a V1 pulse engine with a free piston in the middle ( combustion chamber ) and yuk, the work of the devil, electric drive!

[ken seeber]

Initially when I heard about this engine ( 30,000 rpm ) I assumed a free piston engine.
You know, a V1 pulse engine with a free piston in the middle ( combustion chamber ) and yuk, the work of the devil, electric drive!

Neil, have a look at this. I can see quite a bit of you in this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKMLYFVwNVg
There are bigger ones as well.
I'm sure that between you and Wob, who must have around a million old expansion chambers around the back, could join all these up, attach them to the back of a ute. No need for pistons, electric drives, mysteries or 30,000 rpm. Just simple gaseous direct drive. KISS. Out Ryger the Ryger!

[Flettner]

Yer, pistons are so last century, who needs them.

[Frits Overmars]

soooo no time frame on a green light yet? Maybe, maybe not, I haven't go a clue. I've always tried to keep away from legal mumbo-jumbo as much as possible.

[Frits Overmars]

Neil, have a look at this. I can see quite a bit of you in this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKMLYFVwNVg There are bigger ones as well.The German V1 Doodlebug had steel reed valves; the pulse jet in the video is the pure version as far as I'm concerned: valveless, just gas dynamics.
I once sketched a reed valve version for a neighbour and lent him a 34 mm Mikuni carb to help him on his way.
The noise was incredible and so was the length of the emerging flame: he almost reduced his parents' shed to ashes. Oh well, the things you do when you're young...

[ken seeber]

The noise was incredible and so was the length of the emerging flame: he almost reduced his parents' shed to ashes. Oh well, the things you do when you're young...
Noise and flames....great.

Frits, next year the newly homologated KZ engines will be released (I think). I was thinking about the Modena and as to whether it may get in. The rules are pretty tight it seems, and in various translations, confusing.
As an alternative to the 24/7 mechanism, what about using spring steel reeds (as opposed to stainless) and use electromagnets in the housing that were capable of lifting and holding the petals out? Always the concerns of metal reeds breaking off and being ingested, but maybe over a certain rpm they can be held open, thereby reducing fatigue failure issues.

[Frits Overmars]

Yer, pistons are so last century, who needs them.Would you prefer jet propulsion? Better make sure that you're on pole position at each traffic light then, or you'll receive a free haircut, shave and eyebrow removal :mad:.

Eventually we'll all go electric. But not quite yet. Storing the necessary energy directly in batteries will require a breakthrough in battery technology that I cannot see happening any time soon, so I think the fuel cell will be the way to go.
My sarcastic view: "Hydrogen is the fuel of the future and it will probably remain so forever". Not only because of the lacking hydrogen distribution infrastructure, but also because of the huge storage problem. Even if you do not use your future vehicle at all after after filling the hydrogen tank, it will be half empty again in two weeks time because the hydrogen molecules are so small that they escape right through the walls of the tank; neither steel, carbon or rubber can keep the H2 in.

I think the most practical approach will be to fill the tank with a liquid hydrocarbon fuel like we do now, use an on-board reformer to extract the hydrogen from this fuel, and feed it into a fuel cell. There will be losses, but the efficiency will still be much better than that of a combustion engine. And the complete infrastructure is already here.

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, next year the newly homologated KZ engines will be released (I think). I was thinking about the Modena and as to whether it may get in. The rules are pretty tight it seems, and in various translations, confusing.
As an alternative to the 24/7 mechanism, what about using spring steel reeds (as opposed to stainless) and use electromagnets in the housing that were capable of lifting and holding the petals out? Always the concerns of metal reeds breaking off and being ingested, but maybe over a certain rpm they can be held open, thereby reducing fatigue failure issues.The international kart governing body FIA-CIK considers electrickery a thing of the devil; they do not even allow variable ignition or electric power valves and power jets. And I'm convinced that they will find a way to block the 24/7 Modena even though the valves are purely mechanically operated.
Modena and the CIK don't exactly see eye to eye; after Modena introduced its synthetic flow-guiding inlet insert, the other kart engine manufacturers conspired and the CIK announced that the insert would not be accepted again at the next homologation round, although it's just a piece of plastic that every manufacturer could make at next to no cost. In fact it was initially developed by Modena so the complex milling of the transition from the reed cavity to the transfers could be skipped. My suggestion to use a plastic with low thermal conductivity also contributed a bit to engine power.

[FastFred]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/YOZr7uUz9hM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Major Save.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/PO8BSqTDjjU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Epic.

[Yow Ling]

I think a p2 ignitech with fairly minor software changes could handle the 30k ignition, just have the CPU alternate the input pulses to the 2internal cdi's the problem isn't the speed of the input pulses just the time it takes to charge the capacitor in the cdi .this way it will act like a 15000 ignition

[peewee]

Studs are better. If you tighten a head bolt, you generate a tension force in the bolt and a rubbing movement between the male and female threads at the same time. Especially the female thread in the light-alloy cylinder body doesn't like that.
If you use studs, tightening the nuts will put the same tension force in the studs, but at this stage there is no movement between the male thread of the studs and the female thread in the cylinder body any more, so no wear.

thnx frits. thats what i was thinking also. with bolts my routine is tighten in increment steps and that would obviously put twisting tension on the cylinder threads at each step of the tightening process, which im trying to avoid. studs would eliminate that.

i kept a IR gun close by and tried to keep the heat as low as possible but since im a novice welder at best, im sure i heated it a bit more than need be but its a learning process. still the gun never measured much over 400F even moments after shutting down the arc. will have a bottle of 75% argon and 25% helium tomorow to try. i hear the helium mix helps with cast aluminum

[Ocean1]

The German V1 Doodlebug had steel reed valves; the pulse jet in the video is the pure version as far as I'm concerned: valveless, just gas dynamics.
I once sketched a reed valve version for a neighbour and lent him a 34 mm Mikuni carb to help him on his way.
The noise was incredible and so was the length of the emerging flame: he almost reduced his parents' shed to ashes. Oh well, the things you do when you're young...

I used to spin tiny valve-less pulse jets up from copper tube. Had to make quite a few before I got them so they would firstly light up and then remain stable. Unfortunately the end result was a heat profile that meant the combustion chamber was hot enough to remain annealed, but the exhaust work hardened and split in a remarkably short time.

Darwin had it all wrong.

[Flettner]

Come on, more wild speculation on Ryger please. Anyone? Husa is doing his fair share

[chrisc]

Here's one for you TZ, now we just need someone to translate the hieroglyphics :blink:

Athena EFI 2T article (http://www.slideshare.net/EvanDeCiren/iniezione-2t)

312531

[F5 Dave]

Come on, more wild speculation on Ryger please. Anyone? Husa is doing his fair share
Meh, we're done with the Ryger. What if we replaced the steel reed valves on the jet with high temp carbon fibre, bent the reed stops back and polished the insides with some of that porting paste they used to advertise in 80s dirt bike magazines? Then we could get it going real fast and burn sheds down quicker.

[Frits Overmars]

Here's one for you TZ, now we just need someone to translate the hieroglyphicsWe aim to please:
http://www.athenaparts.com/eng/blog/2SDI-direct-injection-combustion-control
http://www.google.nl/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1DVCC_enNL345&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=athena%20dicc

I also have a nice PDF on the subject but I can't see a way to attach it here.

[ken seeber]

Come on, more wild speculation on Ryger please. Anyone? Husa is doing his fair share

You're a taskmaster Flettner! Yep, it'd be good to get this sorted before the patent comes out. Sort of Southern Hemisphere vs North. Then you can go and make one.

Frits, would it be fair to say the piston reciprocating weight be more than the piston it is replacing? This would mean the piston in its entirety, including any form of rigidly connected piston rod or tube.

That's it for today.

[husaberg]

Here's one for you TZ, now we just need someone to translate the hieroglyphics :blink:

Athena EFI 2T article (http://www.slideshare.net/EvanDeCiren/iniezione-2t)

312531


We aim to please:
http://www.athenaparts.com/eng/blog/2SDI-direct-injection-combustion-control
http://www.google.nl/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1DVCC_enNL345&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=athena%20dicc

I also have a nice PDF on the subject but I can't see a way to attach it here.

That looks a lot like the Stuff HGT was selling? anyone........


You're a taskmaster Flettner! Yep, it'd be good to get this sorted before the patent comes out. Sort of Southern Hemisphere vs North. Then you can go and make one.

Frits, would it be fair to say the piston reciprocating weight be more than the piston it is replacing? This would mean the piston in its entirety, including any form of rigidly connected piston rod or tube.

That's it for today.

I posted a pic for Neil to build the other day and frankly I am a bit surprised he hasn't got the working prototype functional yet.............

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, would it be fair to say the piston reciprocating weight be more than the piston it is replacing? This would mean the piston in its entirety, including any form of rigidly connected piston rod or tube.
That's it for today.My lips are sealed :shutup: and will continue to be so for the near future, I'm afraid.

[breezy]

"75 Not out is nearly more than the English team scored at the cricket world Cup.[/QUOTE]"
we even tried the rain dance, but to no avail:weep::weep:

[breezy]

My lips are sealed :shutup: and will continue to be so for the near future, I'm afraid.


Frits,
, any idea where the design for the tuk tuk 2 stroke engine conversion by Lennart Van den Doel can be seen/read...::sherlock:

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, any idea where the design for the tuk tuk 2 stroke engine conversion by Lennart Van den Doel can be seen/read...::sherlock:No
The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 charactersDamn, not even the forum itself will take a simple No for an answer.
Nooooooooo

[breezy]

NoDamn, not even the forum itself will take a simple No for an answer.
Nooooooooo

oooooookkkkkkkaaaaayyyy.:lol:Frits, would the phrase " when reciprocating mass goes down , generally , rpm goes up". be correct?

is it conceivable that a piston could be coated/ constructed with a known substance to withstand very high engine rpm/heat and be self lubricating, such as some known bearings that are available?:sherlock:

[Martin1981]

Frits, can the Ryger Technology be adapted to the Rotax 123 Engine?

[Flettner]

What if. There was a bypass around the the transfers leading to the exhaust header ( valved ) that used the exhaust wave to pull more fuel air direct into the chamber for the reverse wave to stuff back up the cylinder?

[adegnes]

What if. There was a bypass around the the transfers leading to the exhaust header ( valved ) that used the exhaust wave to pull more fuel air direct into the chamber for the reverse wave to stuff back up the cylinder?

I like that idea, regardless of it being used in the ryger. After the transfers close you don't have to worry about directctional controll over the mixture, that would be the time to really force feed it in reverse.

[wobbly]

Well Neil you have fallen right into the trap.
There is no trick new engine in reality, the buggers are using the 2T community to slowly extract a hundred dumb ideas
from that may in fact end up as a couple of good ideas,that can then be patented.
The next step is to then sell this newly patented idea to GM or sumsuch for a trillion dollars and retire to the Bahamas
where Frits then joins them in secret a few months later with his own suitcase of USD.
Very slick, but now we are onto them, so no more smartarse ideas on here thank you.

[lodgernz]

We aim to please:
http://www.athenaparts.com/eng/blog/2SDI-direct-injection-combustion-control
http://www.google.nl/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1DVCC_enNL345&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=athena%20dicc

I also have a nice PDF on the subject but I can't see a way to attach it here.

Announced 2011. You'd think we'd have seen it in use if it was successful.
Can't find any mention of such kits in Athena's current website catalogue.

[jonny quest]

I like that idea, regardless of it being used in the ryger. After the transfers close you don't have to worry about directctional controll over the mixture, that would be the time to really force feed it in reverse.

Just shorten piston skirt on exhaust side and try your idea. See how good that works 😆

[Flettner]

Just shorten piston skirt on exhaust side and try your idea. See how good that works ��

Wrong time?

[Frits Overmars]

What if. There was a bypass around the the transfers leading to the exhaust header ( valved ) that used the exhaust wave to pull more fuel air direct into the chamber for the reverse wave to stuff back up the cylinder?Don't you think it will be more effective to pull the fresh charge through the cylinder instead of around it?

[Frits Overmars]

The buggers are using the 2T community to slowly extract a hundred dumb ideas from that may in fact end up as a couple of good ideas,that can then be patented. The next step is to then sell this newly patented idea to GM or sumsuch for a trillion dollars and retire to the Bahamas where Frits then joins them in secret a few months later with his own suitcase of USD.I've never been to the Bahamas, Wob. Can you recommend them?

[Flettner]

Don't you think it will be more effective to pull the fresh charge through the cylinder instead of around it?

Yes, that as well.

[senso]

That would explain the high reed cage and the clean-ness of the piston crown, but that would be sort of a uniflow engine, sort of cross-breeding uniflow and Schnuerle(I think this is wrong and there should be an umlaut somewhere) loop scavenging

[JanBros]

could it be Ryger finaly got an almost 40 year old idea working well tnx to better materials ?
but as the cylinder clearly has transfers, they just might have added this TVPS, it would certainly give some much needed time-area and reduce piston-mass for the higher revs.

from a magazine from 1977 :

http://users.telenet.be/jannemie/TVPS1.jpg

http://users.telenet.be/jannemie/TVPS2.jpg

[wobbly]

Cutting the piston skirt short on the Ex side has been done.
It was used to win a Jetski world title in stock class on a big twin with a common pipe.
It played hell with the jetting, but once we got the pumper carbs reset it made a shit load more power from the reverse
pulse coming back from the 180* cylinder finding its way down the paired header and adding compression to the exposed case
of the piston sitting at TDC.
I know nothing about any of this as its illegal as hell, but was never found in tech.

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, would the phrase " when reciprocating mass goes down , generally , rpm goes up". be correct?Not necessarily. For example, a piece breaking off the piston skirt will not do the rpm much good, generally.
Joking apart, a while back I would have answered that the attainable rpm in a two-stroke is limited by the time.areas, not by piston speed or mass.
But that was BR (Before Ryger).


is it conceivable that a piston could be coated/ constructed with a known substance to withstand very high engine rpm/heat and be self lubricating, such as some known bearings that are available?Whole pistons have been made from pressed carbon (the kind that carbon brushes are made of). Mahle experimented quite a bit with them, mainly for TDI engines, but they made some two-stroke pistons as well. They are self-lubricating and will withstand very high temperatures, but they are not much lighter than light-alloy pistons because they require thicker skirt walls, and their high crown temperature will provoke detonation, which makes them unsuitable for anything but diesels.
312538

[husaberg]

could it be Ryger finaly got an almost 40 year old idea working well tnx to better materials ?
but as the cylinder clearly has transfers, they just might have added this TVPS, it would certainly give some much needed time-area and reduce piston-mass for the higher revs.

from a magazine from 1977 :



Pat whatever have a gif of one only problem is the pic shows a conventional looking piston. lol

http://www.pattakon.com/patportless/PatPortLess4.gif
Or a slightly different variation
http://www.pattakon.com/tilting/Tilting_Single.gif
Gets around the two diameter piston be interesting with the heat treansfer though.:rolleyes:
Anyone What temp is the mixture after it is shunted into the hot environment of the cylinder through a hot engine.
Would there be any advantage of a dry sump like crankcase set up it could be a stroke behind it could also be manipulated in size and evacuated with a bellows type set up controlled by pneumatics.
Sorry last of the Crackpot suggestions for Ford.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-nQfPsfB_KE/SYAfU_KEX9I/AAAAAAAABxw/HCTrxPmIoT8/s320/co2.gif

[Frits Overmars]

That would explain the high reed cage and the clean-ness of the piston crown, but that would be sort of a uniflow engine, sort of cross-breeding uniflow and Schnuerle(I think this is wrong and there should be an umlaut somewhere) loop scavengingThe clean piston crown is easy to understand when you've seen Ryger fill up the kart's fuel tank, right from to the Euro95 (not even Euro98) petrol pump (gas pump to you, Smitty). No oil is added.
The man's name was Schnürle but in German it is quite acceptable to replace the umlaut with an e behind the u, so Schnuerle is fine, Senso.

[Frits Overmars]

could it be Ryger finaly got an almost 40 year old idea working well tnx to better materials ?
but as the cylinder clearly has transfers, they just might have added this TVPS, it would certainly give some much needed time-area and reduce piston-mass for the higher revs.
from a magazine from 1977:You made my day, Jan; you fell for it 38 years after the fact. That magazine was MOTO 73, of which I was the technical editor (and test rider, and photographer, and translator, and I also made the coffee occasionally, but somehow we managed to become the biggest motorcycle magazine in the Netherlands and Belgium).
The TVPS (Top Valve Piston System) was our 1977 April Fool's joke!

[Frits Overmars]

Cutting the piston skirt short on the Ex side has been done. It was used to win a Jetski world title in stock class on a big twin with a common pipe. It played hell with the jetting, but once we got the pumper carbs reset it made a shit load more power from the reverse pulse coming back from the 180* cylinder finding its way down the paired header and adding compression to the exposed case of the piston sitting at TDC.
I know nothing about any of this as its illegal as hell, but was never found in tech.How can it be illegal when a piece of piston skirt goes missing unintentionally, and somehow the engine keeps running :whistle:?
By the way, did you know that some Yamaha twins (the RD400 if I remember correctly) were sold with such a TDC exhaust-to-crankcase connection for a while?

[Frits Overmars]

BTW 2: here is a patent about using the exhaust pulse from one cylinder of a 180°-twin to improve the filling of its neighbour.
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[husaberg]

BTW 2: here is a patent about using the exhaust pulse from one cylinder of a 180°-twin to improve the filling of its neighbour.


No idea what it did or how it worked but it linked both in maybe a Vtac kind of way?


KVSS: stands for Kawasaki valve synchronization system
Exhaust device mounted on the Kawasaki KR250S (1985 years).
Small hole that connects the two exhaust muffler (orifice) is a system that opens and closes by the engine rotation speed.
By utilizing a pressure wave of the muffler next supplement the low-speed torque.

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Although a tandem the Kr1 was a 180 degree set up.


How can it be illegal when a piece of piston skirt goes missing unintentionally, and somehow the engine keeps running :whistle:?
By the way, did you know that some Yamaha twins (the RD400 if I remember correctly) were sold with such a TDC exhaust-to-crankcase connection for a while?
The old Rotax exhaust pressure driven EX valve springs to mind too

If its the one I was thinking of the Daytona Special I seem to remember it have valves in the exhausts to close them shut on over run to lower emissions maybe controlled by vacuum?


Several significant changes have been made for 1979, some dictated by clean-air requirements, others not. The RD400F is fitted with a butterfly valve at each exhaust manifold to decrease emissions during the deceleration mode of EPA testing. By reducing emissions in that one mode, the overall score is lowered enough for the bike to pass the overall test, yet performance is not significantly compromised.

The valves are controlled by engine vacuum and throttle opening. When the carburetor slides are raised less than 3.3mm, a valve located at the carburetor linkage remains closed. With that control valve closed, vacuum from the intake manifolds opens a dashpot located underneath the carburetors, behind the cylinders. That dashpot pulls butterfly valves closed via an adjustable rod linkage which runs underneath and between the cylinders to the exhaust valve assembly.

When the carburetor slides are raised more than 3.3min, the control valve opens a line leading from the airbox, dashpot vacuum drops, and the butterfly valves spring open. The valves are either open (under most conditions) or closed (under deceleration and very small throttle openings) and do not hold at any position m between. When the control valve is open, the line from the airbox constitutes a coitrolled air leak, which is compensated for in carburetor jetting. (A one-way valve in the intake manifold vacuum lines prevents any reversal in the emissions system air flow.)

The valves are effective because a twostroke is less efficient with the throttle closed, especially when decelerating. The rich air/fuel mixture tends to run right through the cylinders and out the exhaust without complete combustion, and the lack of compression braking effect allows a decelerating two-stroke to coast with the throttle shut for relatively long distances. That adds up to lots of emissions during deceleration. The butterfly valves work on a sort of potato-up-the-exhaust-pipe principle - with the exhaust plugged, emissions aren't a problem. In actual fact, it isn't that dramatic. When open, the exhaust manifolds are 1-7/16 in. diameter, for a combined exhaust area of 3.25 sq. in., not counting the obstruction caused by the open butterfly valves. With the valves closed, exhaust exits through two quarter-inch holes in each valve, for a combined exhaust area of 0.2 sq. in. It isn't a case of total blockage, but it gets the job done.

http://www.oocities.org/bezean/CWArticle.html
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[Frits Overmars]

Cutting the piston skirt short on the Ex side has been done. It was used to win a Jetski world title in stock class on a big twin with a common pipe. It played hell with the jetting, but once we got the pumper carbs reset it made a shit load more power from the reverse pulse coming back from the 180* cylinder finding its way down the paired header and adding compression to the exposed case of the piston sitting at TDC.Wait a minute... That same reverse pulse would arrive at the exhaust port of the cylinder where it originated from, at BDC, right? So that would be a suction pulse.
How do you persuade a suction pulse to add compression to the exposed case of the piston sitting at TDC :confused:?

[husaberg]

Wait a minute... That same reverse pulse would arrive at the exhaust port of the cylinder where it originated from, at BDC, right? So that would be a suction pulse.
How do you persuade a suction pulse to add compression to the exposed case of the piston sitting at TDC :confused:?

Diaphragm ie Pumper carbs do that every day don't they? In a round about kind of way given some time to relax
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then again.
http://www.aficionadosalamecanica.net/imagesturbo/comprex.jpg

Frits could there be advantages in skip stroking ie skiping a fuel and or ignition cycle if it was done in a controlled manner for total cylinder filling.


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http://papers.sae.org/922310/

[ken seeber]

Well Neil you have fallen right into the trap.
There is no trick new engine in reality, the buggers are using the 2T community to slowly extract a hundred dumb ideas
from that may in fact end up as a couple of good ideas,that can then be patented.
The next step is to then sell this newly patented idea to GM or sumsuch for a trillion dollars and retire to the Bahamas
where Frits then joins them in secret a few months later with his own suitcase of USD.
Very slick, but now we are onto them, so no more smartarse ideas on here thank you.

Wob's certainly got a point. However, one thing is for sure and that is if Neil or anyone spreads their legs with a trick idea, then it is automatically in the public domain. This means it cannot be patentad. However, sometimes it is not the actual basic idea that draws in the dollars, but how that idea is implemented.
So, it might be wise if you think you have a good idea to either keep it to yourself, or trusted associates, develop it a bit and if it's worthwhile than do the provisional, and then, the patent thing. But, if you don't really care about going off to the Bahamas, then by all means let it all out.

Either way, if the end result is that the 2 stroke or 2T (gotta get used to saying that) can take a step forward, then many of us (not all though) will be happy.

[peewee]

By the way, did you know that some Yamaha twins (the RD400 if I remember correctly) were sold with such a TDC exhaust-to-crankcase connection for a while?

as were some ktms but most people dont know this because they didnt bother to look :laugh:

[Flettner]

Wob's certainly got a point. However, one thing is for sure and that is if Neil or anyone spreads their legs with a trick idea, then it is automatically in the public domain. This means it cannot be patentad. However, sometimes it is not the actual basic idea that draws in the dollars, but how that idea is implemented.
So, it might be wise if you think you have a good idea to either keep it to yourself, or trusted associates, develop it a bit and if it's worthwhile than do the provisional, and then, the patent thing. But, if you don't really care about going off to the Bahamas, then by all means let it all out.

Either way, if the end result is that the 2 stroke or 2T (gotta get used to saying that) can take a step forward, then many of us (not all though) will be happy.

Yes, I've long since realised that I've got no idea so I'm happy to just blurt it out. You never know something may come of all this.

[F5 Dave]

I can't imagine the Bahamas have got anywhere decent you can fire up the dirtbike & go crazy in scenic bush without getting mowed down, let alone a decent roadrace track.

and no I can't be bothered googling it.

[Grumph]

I can't imagine the Bahamas have got anywhere decent you can fire up the dirtbike & go crazy in scenic bush without getting mowed down, let alone a decent roadrace track.

and no I can't be bothered googling it.

Probably true - though the Nassau speed week is still going i think. back in the day they ran the group 7 Lolas, Mclarens and Chapparals there - and partied hard.
At the moment I think they're concentrating on laying out Americas Cup courses...and revising the hotel charges accordingly.

[wobbly]

In fact it probably does both Frits.
As the LH piston is approaching BDC the escaping pulse is a positive pressure ratio
that changes then to negative as it moves down the diffuser.
Thus the RH cylinder sees this negative ratio as an addition to that created by the piston approaching TDC ( and uncovering the bottom of the Ex port ).
Then as the LH cylinder moves away from BDC, the positive ratio from the rear cone starts to reverse the gases escaping from both
cylinders, thus helping to overfill both.
The RH cylinders piston cuts off this compression phase much earlyer than the Ex port closes on the other cylinder,but some positive effect does seem to occur.
My logic on the effect , as good as I can explain it.

[jasonu]

I can't imagine the Bahamas have got anywhere decent you can fire up the dirtbike & go crazy in scenic bush without getting mowed down, let alone a decent roadrace track.

and no I can't be bothered googling it.


Probably true - though the Nassau speed week is still going i think. back in the day they ran the group 7 Lolas, Mclarens and Chapparals there - and partied hard.
At the moment I think they're concentrating on laying out Americas Cup courses...and revising the hotel charges accordingly.

Been there recently, it's a shit hole don't waste your money and time on that dump.

[JanBros]

You made my day, Jan; you fell for it 38 years after the fact. That magazine was MOTO 73, of which I was the technical editor (and test rider, and photographer, and translator, and I also made the coffee occasionally, but somehow we managed to become the biggest motorcycle magazine in the Netherlands and Belgium).
The TVPS (Top Valve Piston System) was our 1977 April Fool's joke!

I know Frits :msn-wink: Had to move some stuff from my parents attic and I forgot there were boxes with old magazines from '76 - '90, and so I was going through them. I just read it (so no link with the first of april) but could only think "it'll never work", which was confirmed when I read the next mag.

just thought it was funny. Wanted to see the reaction of people here and wanted to send you a pm not to tell what it is, but aparently I'm not a "involved enough" on the forum to be able to send pm's.

[husaberg]

Go Karb Fuel Injection Carburetor
I seen this on Ebay.
1-13/16" center to center on mount holes. 3/4" across throat
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-NOS-Go-Kart-Go-Karb-Fuel-Injection-Carburetor-McCulloch-West-Bend-Rupp-/251908761617
Never seen or heard of them guessing it is a single circuit carb like a Wal Philips injector.
Anyone just out of curiosity know anything about them picking 60's Tech.
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[Frits Overmars]

Frits could there be advantages in skip stroking ie skiping a fuel and or ignition cycle if it was done in a controlled manner for total cylinder filling.I intended to read all the pages you posted before giving an answer, but I stopped reading after "Let it be assumed that the conditions of heat transfer, flow resistance and flow dynamics are not significantly influenced by skip cycling". Yeah, right. That may be true in engines that solely depend on a scavenging pump. But ours don't; they depend on exhaust resonance. And when you skip just one combustion cycle, the dynamics collapse and so does the next scavenging event. And the next. And the next, until eventually there is enough mixture in the cylinder for successful ignition again.


I've long since realised that I've got no idea so I'm happy to just blurt it out. You never know something may come of all this.That's the way I operate too, Neil. Who wants to be rich? I'm happy each time one of my wild ideas actually works.
The Ryger situation is an exception because there is more involved than just my own ideas.


I know Frits. Had to move some stuff from my parents attic and I forgot there were boxes with old magazines from '76 - '90, and so I was going through them. I just read it (so no link with the first of april) but could only think "it'll never work", which was confirmed when I read the next mag.
just thought it was funny. Wanted to see the reaction of people here and wanted to send you a pm not to tell what it is, but aparently I'm not a "involved enough" on the forum to be able to send pm's.Too bad I wasn't aware of your intentions Jan; I would have been happy to play ball. But don't feel bad about the bouncing PM. I blocked PMs on all public forums; forums absorb far too much of my time as it is, every day.

[F5 Dave]

Can we just say again that we appreciate the time you do contribute here.

[Flettner]

Can we just say again that we appreciate the time you do contribute here.

Without dought

[adegnes]

Without dought
+1


......................

[Flettner]

What if, lets assume that this 30,000 rpm thing is just a ruse. At that sort of rpm friction would be so high it would be lucky to have enough combustion pressure to overcome this situation and even turn itself. So forget 30,000 rpm.
But what if the crank arrangment was such that it turned two turns per every stroke ( why you would want this I don't know? ) perhaps some sort of crank angle advantage thing. A bit like a rotary where by the time the rotor has turned once the output shaft has turned three times.
Like you say Frits I've long since realised even if I did have a good idea ( and I'm just about clean out of those, as you can see I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel now ) you are never going to make any money out of it. No one want's twostroke tec any more, accept a few bucket racers.
And the cost to patent!
And the lack of protection anyway.

[breezy]

What if, lets assume that this 30,000 rpm thing is just a ruse. At that sort of rpm friction would be so high it would be lucky to have enough combustion pressure to overcome this situation and even turn itself. So forget 30,000 rpm.
But what if the crank arrangment was such that it turned two turns per every stroke ( why you would want this I don't know? ) perhaps some sort of crank angle advantage thing. A bit like a rotary where by the time the rotor has turned once the output shaft has turned three times.
Like you say Frits I've long since realised even if I did have a good idea ( and I'm just about clean out of those, as you can see I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel now ) you are never going to make any money out of it. No one want's twostroke tec any more, accept a few bucket racers.
And the cost to patent!
And the lack of protection anyway.

if i was the big bear, struggling with my economy, id be pretty cheesed off if someone came up with an idea for an engine that no longer needed as much oil as previously..... also anyone who felt that their empire as going to be brought down by a powerful two stroke engine invention , i may feel the need to protect myself and buy out such an invention to lose it.Personally, i would also be unlikley to accept a large vodka, while in london on a day out, from a smiling stranger, unless of course i had an antidote for polonium poisoning .........:wacko::shit:

[Flettner]

I intended to read all the pages you posted before giving an answer, but I stopped reading after "Let it be assumed that the conditions of heat transfer, flow resistance and flow dynamics are not significantly influenced by skip cycling". Yeah, right. That may be true in engines that solely depend on a scavenging pump. But ours don't; they depend on exhaust resonance. And when you skip just one combustion cycle, the dynamics collapse and so does the next scavenging event. And the next. And the next, until eventually there is enough mixture in the cylinder for successful ignition again.

That's the way I operate too, Neil. Who wants to be rich? I'm happy each time one of my wild ideas actually works.
The Ryger situation is an exception because there is more involved than just my own ideas.


Skipping a cycle at low rpm ( off the pipe ) this would work, making the engine more like a fourstroke for " hookup " , off road applications.
But as you get into the resonance you would need to stop this nonsence. If fact the bottom part of throttle could be controlled by fuel only.Assuming port injection.

So from the above we can imagine that there are in fact ideas of yours in this Ryger engine? 24 / reed? No need to say, we are just imagining.

[Flettner]

if i was the big bear, struggling with my economy, id be pretty cheesed off if someone came up with an idea for an engine that no longer needed as much oil as previously..... also anyone who felt that their empire as going to be brought down by a powerful two stroke engine invention , i may feel the need to protect myself and buy out such an invention to lose it.Personally, i would also be unlikley to accept a large vodka, while in london on a day out, from a smiling stranger, unless of course i had an antidote for polonium poisoning .........:wacko::shit:

The old conspiracy theory aye;)

[husaberg]

if i was the big bear, struggling with my economy, id be pretty cheesed off if someone came up with an idea for an engine that no longer needed as much oil as previously..... also anyone who felt that their empire as going to be brought down by a powerful two stroke engine invention , i may feel the need to protect myself and buy out such an invention to lose it.Personally, i would also be unlikley to accept a large vodka, while in london on a day out, from a smiling stranger, unless of course i had an antidote for polonium poisoning .........:wacko::shit:

The poison to use on a two stroke genius would be Ricin as it is fittingly made from castor beans....................
Sadly a Professor actually did that here.

I intended to read all the pages you posted before giving an answer, but I stopped reading after "Let it be assumed that the conditions of heat transfer, flow resistance and flow dynamics are not significantly influenced by skip cycling". Yeah, right. That may be true in engines that solely depend on a scavenging pump. But ours don't; they depend on exhaust resonance. And when you skip just one combustion cycle, the dynamics collapse and so does the next scavenging event. And the next. And the next, until eventually there is enough mixture in the cylinder for successful ignition again. .
The experiments were run only up to 3500rpm, but I think it is worth a read on, the engine was curiously a 125 disk valve, pretty uncommon back then. 1956 a disk valve two stroke 56x50mm I can't think what it was?
As Neil said a 4 stroke button does have applications in tough going.
That next sentence after the one you quoted was. Let it be assumed that the conditions of heat transfer, flow resistance and flow dynamics are not significantly influenced by skip cycling- an assumption which appears to be justified by the experimental results reported herein. I and many others certainly appreciate your time to steer us in the right directions.
Success in life is measured in constitution collaboration and contribution rather than cash assets.

I remember there was another scavenging design Villiers used in the 1930's I am pretty sure it had a transfer between the exhausts had a flat crown.I can't find any decent drawings of how it worked Greg might know it was the one with the radial finned head.
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[ken seeber]

Frits,
Ryger time again. Is there a nett outward (or inward) gas flow from the catch can filter, neglecting any possible venting back to the main inlet? Must admit it might be a bit hard to test with your bare hand when in 6th gear at 30k though.:no:

[Flettner]

if i was the big bear, struggling with my economy, id be pretty cheesed off if someone came up with an idea for an engine that no longer needed as much oil as previously..... also anyone who felt that their empire as going to be brought down by a powerful two stroke engine invention , i may feel the need to protect myself and buy out such an invention to lose it.Personally, i would also be unlikley to accept a large vodka, while in london on a day out, from a smiling stranger, unless of course i had an antidote for polonium poisoning .........:wacko::shit:

You think the valve manufactures are worried? Honda sniffing around?

[Grumph]

Success in life is measured in constitution collaboration and contribution rather than cash assets.

Well my constitution is fucked, i seldom collaborate, most of my contributions are fittingly ignored....and i'm a poor pensioner. Trifecta ?

I remember there was another scavenging design Villiers used in the 1930's I am pretty sure it had a transfer between the exhausts had a flat crown.I can't find any decent drawings of how it worked Greg might know it was the one with the radial finned head.]

All I can find on that is the very early loop scavenge Villers motors used a symmetrical cylinder to try and avoid distortion. Two opposed exhaust ports and two opposed transfers. Hmm that sounds familiar....nothing new under the sun is there.

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, Ryger time again. Is there a nett outward (or inward) gas flow from the catch can filter, neglecting any possible venting back to the main inlet? Must admit it might be a bit hard to test with your bare hand when in 6th gear at 30k though.I didn't do 30k in 6th gear Ken; not on the stretch of road you saw in the picture. There were protruding manhole covers in the middle, leaving a useful width of one kart width plus maybe 30 cm.
Re the catch can filter: I am not even at liberty to confirm that it is a catch can filter, but I will admit that it is a filter. Satisfied? Didn't think so. Nice try though :msn-wink:.

[Grumph]

You think the valve manufactures are worried? Honda sniffing around?

I wish the Ryger crew the very best of luck cashing in on it...

This whole thing reminds me forcibly of the fuss around the Wankel. I well remember the first teasing press reports of a revolutionary new motor - and the long wait here in NZ for copies of the UK magazines with a full analysis of how it worked. Then the kitchen table sessions working out how to build a working prototype...

[Frits Overmars]

All I can find on that is the very early loop scavenge Villiers motors used a symmetrical cylinder to try and avoid distortion. Two opposed exhaust ports and two opposed transfers.Here is the racing version, with two opposed carburetters as well. I used to refer to it as the see-through engine.
312576

[husaberg]

All I can find on that is the very early loop scavenge Villers motors used a symmetrical cylinder to try and avoid distortion. Two opposed exhaust ports and two opposed transfers. Hmm that sounds familiar....nothing new under the sun is there.

They had a few version likely to get around the German patents maybe but there is a few variations but 7 ports in some and I am pretty sure one was between the ex rather than just a 2 side port turned 90 degrees.
So the frits picture is 4 transfers 2 exhaust and 2 inlets so I guess the std is 7 ports
funny enough I seen this New Villiers engine
<iframe width="480" height="390" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/oIMc5gu8R3A" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Tomkinson’s new two-stroke engine is currently going through the patent application process, so it can’t be shown, but Tomkinson says that his two-stroke engine would cost up to 60 per cent less to manufacture than equivalent four-stroke engines. Not only is a two-stroke engine cheaper to produce than a four-stroke engine, but it produces 30-40 per cent more power.


Here is the racing version, with two opposed carburetters as well. I used to refer to it as the see-through engine.
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Gee those rings are fat...........

[peewee]

aparently im the only one that is wondering what 30k rpm sounds like. unless the video was already posted and i missed it ?

[wobbly]

I would say it sounds like a big bang 500GP doing 13,000 - unbelievably amazing.

[husaberg]

<iframe width="554" height="310" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/UL_iXS-UnnU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
.................................................. ...........

[F5 Dave]

I would say it sounds like a big bang 500GP doing 13,000 - unbelievably amazing.

yer making me all weepy. Mind you those NSR V twins sounded horny even if they were whapping big cylinders revving slowly. Must have been a great time hanging out in the pits to experience that on such a regular basis.

[ken seeber]

Well, we tried and tried, but couldn't get 70 hp, let alone 30k, so we put a 2nd engine on and it was a lot better. Based on that we are now going over to a 4 cylinder. Hope there's no man hole covers this time !!!!!.:2thumbsup

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[TZ350]

Here's one for you TZ, now we just need someone to translate the hieroglyphics :blink:

Athena EFI 2T article (http://www.slideshare.net/EvanDeCiren/iniezione-2t)

312531

I have seen the video of it (or one like it) running.

Its very interesting, I like the idea of vaporizing the fuel by squirting it against the hot cylinder head, cooling the head and possibly the piston crown too.

But with only one injector, it's difficult to see how they can properly cover the full range of fuel demand from very small to full squirt at peak torque with only one injector.

A high impedance fuel injector takes about 2ms to open and start flowing fuel properly, a peak and hold, about 1.5 or a little less.

At 14,000 rpm a complete revolution takes 4.3ms and the time between exhaust closing and TDC is about 1.1ms. The time between exhaust closing and the piston covering the injector is much less than 1ms so the injector has to get going before the exhaust closes, the injection cycle would probably have to start well before BDC.

Another issue would be the pressures, fuel injectors typically run around 3 bar or 43 psi so if the piston is compressing the air in the cylinder after the exhaust port has closed and the injector is trying to squirt more fuel in I am not sure if much more would actually get in after the cylinder pressure started to rise.

[husaberg]

Well, we tried and tried, but couldn't get 70 hp, let alone 30k, so we put a 2nd engine on and it was a lot better. Based on that we are now going over to a 4 cylinder. Hope there's no man hole covers this time !!!!!.:2thumbsup



<iframe width="554" height="310" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Gpn8MANhdLU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="554" height="310" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/lrB01AVlWEU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="590" height="332" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/wvJAgrUBF4w?list=UUeQEKFH31vvD-InkTGSvCrA%3Fwmode%3Dtransparent" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
...........................................

[Frits Overmars]

Swist F5D RC Pylon Raver 200mph+? 38,000rpmThat video was short & sweet. Here's another one, a bit longer, from an F3D pylonracer: 6,5 cc, methanol, glow plug, only 33.000 rpm (it's an old video).
The guy with the white earmuffs in the video (me) radargunned it midcorner at 346 kmh (215 mph) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aBCQGq5Al4

[Frits Overmars]

Well, we tried and tried, but couldn't get 70 hp, let alone 30k, so we put a 2nd engine on and it was a lot better. Based on that we are now going over to a 4 cylinder.I like your sissybar, Ken. Any plans to attach fog lamps? Or a foxtail?
312600
Here's some more inspiration: 312601 312602 312603

Ken, you'll be aware that the regulations stipulate a direct connection from engine to rear axle (that would be the chain), but can you imagine what would happen if the rear axle would accidentally break in the middle (where it happens to be held in two side-by-side bearings)?
Each engine would still be directly connected to the axle, but the wheels would no longer be directly connected to each other. Instead of the inner wheel fighting the outer wheel's grip in the corners, both wheels would work together: less understeer and more grip. And this would allow for softer tire compounds: even more grip.
Talk about an unfair advantage...

[Frits Overmars]

I have seen the video of it (or one like it) running....At 14,000 rpm a complete revolution takes 4.3ms ...If you saw the same Athena video as me, you will have noticed that it stops at 10,500 rpm :p.

[breezy]

I would say it sounds like a big bang 500GP doing 13,000 - unbelievably amazing.

wobbly,
could you tell me the major kinds of barriers a 2 stroke engine would have to breach to achieve rpm levels of 30,000, if you had engine components capable of withstanding it? would the engine require forced induction? :sherlock:

[wobbly]

The problem as I see it is twofold.
If you are talking what we regard as "normal" engine technology with rods etc, and these were converted to plain bearing, the next weakest link in line is the ring seal.
At 30,000 and approaching tdc, the ring inertia would easily overcome the gas pressure trying to push down on the ring seal surface.
Then the next issue is simply time,and with what we regard as "normal " pressure ratios across "normal " ports there is no way of achieving any meaningful flow quantity
in the time allotted.
Thus yes, some form of additional time/area is needed or some form of increased pressure differential generation, over and above that created by the virtual supercharger we have inside the pipe.
This is where we are at right now with the new engine being discussed - it must have a non "normal " movement translation device under the piston to achieve 30,000,it must have a different
bore seal arrangement, and it must have some form of additional "supercharge" to achieve 70Hp at 17,000.

[Flettner]

The problem as I see it is twofold.
If you are talking what we regard as "normal" engine technology with rods etc, and these were converted to plain bearing, the next weakest link in line is the ring seal.
At 30,000 and approaching tdc, the ring inertia would easily overcome the gas pressure trying to push down on the ring seal surface.
Then the next issue is simply time,and with what we regard as "normal " pressure ratios across "normal " ports there is no way of achieving any meaningful flow quantity
in the time allotted.
Thus yes, some form of additional time/area is needed or some form of increased pressure differential generation, over and above that created by the virtual supercharger we have inside the pipe.
This is where we are at right now with the new engine being discussed - it must have a non "normal " movement translation device under the piston to achieve 30,000,it must have a different
bore seal arrangement, and it must have some form of additional "supercharge" to achieve 70Hp at 17,000.

I agree ( for what it's worth ).

[Frits Overmars]

It forces you to look at our engines with an open mind, doesn't it?

[Flettner]

It forces you to look at our engines with an open mind, doesn't it?

So we do need to look outside " normal " then.

[jonny quest]

I've asked this before. .. is this engine legal for 125cc kart class racing?

[Grumph]

I've asked this before. .. is this engine legal for 125cc kart class racing?

Given that IMO Kartsport is the most over - regulated form of motor sport on the planet, I'd pick not legal...

And if or when whatever it has is patented, I'd be surprised if that item/mechanism wasn't immediately banned.

[ken seeber]

[QUOTE=Frits Overmars;1130871035]

Ken, you'll be aware that the regulations stipulate a direct connection from engine to rear axle (that would be the chain), but can you imagine what would happen if the rear axle would accidentally break in the middle (where it happens to be held in two side-by-side bearings)?
QUOTE]

Frits,
I’d like to tell you more about the kart split axle programme, but can’t due to the confidentiality agreement we have in place. :niceone: Nah, just joking.
However, I even had second thoughts posting the pics of the kart. Why? Because, this whole ESE thing is absolutely great, but is primarily about bikes and 2 strokes. Given that, I do have concerns that kart stuff, outside of engines, could poison the thread.
Wob’s made some good points re the time requirement for the gas flow process, particularly so given that it is all happening at 17k, rather than the 12.5k or so with the standard length exhaust.
Prior to the current KF and KZ engines, there were the 100 cc direct drive engines, the last ones featured a tri exhaust and A and C transfers. These revved from 7k to 22k (pretty much self-destruct levels at this speed). The exhausts were a compromise between max power and a useful power spread. It would be interesting to see a power curve of one of these. Husa, where are you?
To go to 30k is pretty impressive, even if it made no power. The force loadings due to the huge increase in acceleration rates are humungous. I suppose one thing a 2T has over a 4T is that during every cycle (around TDC) the piston is cushioned by the compression & combustion, whereas the 4T on overlap goes into tension mode, making the piston, rod, crank etc necessarily stronger to cope with forces in both directions.

Acceleration with respect to crank angle . Formula within this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piston_motion_equations

Anyone want to chuck this into a spreadsheet? Frits probably has this already. If you do Frits, could you tell us the difference between the max accelerations at 12k, 17k and 30k on a 54 stroke and 110 rod?

Grumph. Overregulation is an understatement. The latest Oz rules (they basically use the homologation documents as the rules) for the latest Rotax Max kart engine (called the Evo) runs to 61 pages. You bucket guys have got it right

[adegnes]

This Ryger case gives me the same feeling as when you find something with your feet in bed, and you try to figure out what it is without looking, but can't.

[Moooools]

[QUOTE=Frits Overmars;1130871035]

Anyone want to chuck this into a spreadsheet? Frits probably has this already. If you do Frits, could you tell us the difference between the max accelerations at 12k, 17k and 30k on a 54 stroke and 110 rod?


I happen to have this in matlab.
Although I am not sure my math is right as the numbers seem large. The position/velocity/acceleration plots look right but that could be a coincidence.

At 12000rpm - 42620 m/s^2
At 17000rpm - 85537 m/s^2
At 30000rpm - 266378 m/s^2

[Frits Overmars]

This Ryger case gives me the same feeling as when you find something with your feet in bed, and you try to figure out what it is without looking, but can't.Are you thinking bread crumbs or 36-24-36? In the latter case I can sympathize with you.

[adegnes]

Are you thinking bread crumbs or 36-24-36? In the latter case I can sympathize with you.

Mostly crumbs.

[Frits Overmars]

I've asked this before. .. is this engine legal for 125cc kart class racing?I've said this before: it's not up to me to decide which questions regarding the Ryger engine I can or cannot answer.

[Frits Overmars]

...Prior to the current KF and KZ engines, there were the 100 cc direct drive engines, the last ones featured a tri exhaust and A and C transfers. These revved from 7k to 22k (pretty much self-destruct levels at this speed). The exhausts were a compromise between max power and a useful power spread. It would be interesting to see a power curve of one of these. Husa, where are you?No need to disturb Husa. Here is a comparison of the Aprilia RSA125, a TM 6-speed 125 cc kart engine and a world championship-winning 100 cc direct-drive kart engine.
312609


Acceleration with respect to crank angle . Formula within this link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piston_motion_equations This wiki-article describes a crank mechanism, not an engine. For our purposes there are several factors missing that are by no means negligible, like crankshaft inertia and gas pressure.

[ken seeber]

No need to disturb Husa. Here is a comparison of the Aprilia RSA125, a TM 6-speed 125 cc kart engine and a world championship-winning 100 cc direct-drive kart engine.


Neat comparison. The 100s did pretty well, given the fixed ratio & power spread required.

Moooooooool's figures tell a bit of a story:

At 12000rpm - 42620 m/s^2
At 17000rpm - 85537 m/s^2
At 30000rpm - 266378 m/s^2

Forces at 30k are 6.33 times that at 12k. That means that whatever gizmo/mechanism that Mr Ryger has down there, it must be pretty good = robust. Centrifugal loadings are 6.25 times, so there must be lots of strength down there.
Maybe, if there's someone over there, could they shoot down to the Czech patents office and get this thing to go thru quicker ? Can't wait.

[husaberg]

No need to disturb Husa. Here is a comparison of the Aprilia RSA125, a TM 6-speed 125 cc kart engine and a world championship-winning 100 cc direct-drive kart engine.


This wiki-article describes a crank mechanism, not an engine. For our purposes there are several factors missing that are by no means negligible, like crankshaft inertia and gas pressure.

Hey..........that's my job:clap:
I was looking for that pic the other day, I think it was on Pitlane. I tried looking in your pics posted here prior and I couldn't find it, or missed it.
Gas pressure is an interesting one
While there are rules vs forced induction I am not sure if they really cover creating vacuums .......
I did a large post a while ago but I lost in in Cyber space (my fault)regarding the 1/3 rule for additional pressure and some stuff Jennings and the Japanese sae papers re primary compression.

I was musing if the peak of low pressure controlled flow displaced only by the piston pipe and large efficient crankcase relying solely on pipe and port resonance had been reached it zenith.
I also mused that if one could pre-compress the contents of the cylinder or crankcase there would be more time for flow.
Transfer design exhaust timing control have moved ahead a lot since the sixties. Also with a separate crankcase maybe a variable size electronic flow control fuel injection and intercooling.
Mixed in with some clever high speed low friction crankshaft without low drag.

https://youtu.be/98Vkl1YnNFs
https://youtu.be/-cCt9JobjOg
https://youtu.be/cJDM_g4Wl2s
https://youtu.be/aF92B6Gon3M
https://youtu.be/WTt_hoWtMIc
https://youtu.be/mkQ2pXkYjRM

To me Whether the Ryger fits the current rules is irrelevant, if it is clean and fast and simple its a winner in my eyes.
Who need the FIM or Karting bodies if it was legal and too fast it would only be handicapped or banned regardless, look at the 125/250/500 GP bikes as examples of that

[teriks]

I'd be very interested in seeing how you built the internals of that silencer if you were happy to share.
Thanks for posting the photos. I love seeing where else 2 strokes excel in this world.
Better late than never..
312624
Nothing fancy, but does the job good enough to comply with the rules for F3D racing with good margin.

[Frits Overmars]

To me whether the Ryger fits the current rules is irrelevant, if it is clean and fast and simple its a winner in my eyes.We're on the same page Husa. The Rygers amazing power and its willingness to rev are not even its main strong points. Its fuel economy and clean exhaust are.
But the environmental climate is not favourable for two-strokes.
Several dutch cities are contemplating a ban on small two-strokes because they are big polluters. Which is true because these 50 cc mopeds and scooters are limited to 25 or 40 kmh. They are not allowed to produce anything like decent power, so their combustion is mediocre.
The logical error is of course that vehicles should be banned if they pollute, not because they are chinese, or orange, or two-strokes. But try telling that to a politician.
The only thing they understand is what the public wants to hear. They don't want to see 'clean' and 'two-stroke' in the same sentence.

[Haufen]

The Rygers amazing power and its willingness to rev are not even its main strong points. Its fuel economy and clean exhaust are.


As HP and rpm have been published, are there numbers regarding fuel economy and clean exhaust available that can be published, too?
Like best point BSFC (g/kWh), and emissions wise BSHC (g/kWh) and BSNOx (g/kWh)?

[Frits Overmars]

As HP and rpm have been published, are there numbers regarding fuel economy and clean exhaust available that can be published, too? Like best point BSFC (g/kWh), and emissions wise BSHC (g/kWh) and BSNOx (g/kWh)?The numbers are there, but not yet free for publishing, I'm told.

[Haufen]

The numbers are there, but not yet free for publishing, I'm told.

I am looking forward to that!

Are you allowed to tell us why it is clean / which basic mechanism is behind this? As far as I understood it is not burning 2T oil. Anything else?

[Frits Overmars]

Are you allowed to tell us why it is clean / which basic mechanism is behind this? :no: :shutup:

[Grumph]

I am looking forward to that!

Are you allowed to tell us why it is clean / which basic mechanism is behind this? As far as I understood it is not burning 2T oil. Anything else?

It's presumably burning the mixture more completely. Which raises more questions - better air/fuel mixing ? leaner mixtures ? does the head even have squish as squish is known to do bad things to emissions.
Sorry, I don't have any answers, still feeling around the bottom of the bed....Ouch, it was a cat....

[sonic_v]

This guy appears to have done a lot of engineering on this project

https://nl.linkedin.com/in/lennartvandendoel

[breezy]

The problem as I see it is twofold.
If you are talking what we regard as "normal" engine technology with rods etc, and these were converted to plain bearing, the next weakest link in line is the ring seal.
At 30,000 and approaching tdc, the ring inertia would easily overcome the gas pressure trying to push down on the ring seal surface.
Then the next issue is simply time,and with what we regard as "normal " pressure ratios across "normal " ports there is no way of achieving any meaningful flow quantity
in the time allotted.
Thus yes, some form of additional time/area is needed or some form of increased pressure differential generation, over and above that created by the virtual supercharger we have inside the pipe.
This is where we are at right now with the new engine being discussed - it must have a non "normal " movement translation device under the piston to achieve 30,000,it must have a different
bore seal arrangement, and it must have some form of additional "supercharge" to achieve 70Hp at 17,000.

thanks for your feedback.. to be honest im a bit reluctant to even bother thinking about engine tuning with this Ryger situation looming overhead,i could be wasting time, money and energy. lets just hope it comes into the public domain.:mellow:

[F5 Dave]

I don't think they are going to be selling magic filter canisters soon. Besides it will take an age to tool up for those flip top pistons in the size you want.:niceone:

[Frits Overmars]

I can see that the questions will keep coming. I don't mind at all, it fact I enjoy it, but it's a little tiresome having to repeat over and over that I cannot answer all of 'm.
So here's the deal: you can ask anything you want and if you don't get an answer, you may assume that I did read your question but that the non-disclosure agreement does not allow me to answer.

[ken seeber]

It's presumably burning the mixture more completely. Which raises more questions - better air/fuel mixing ? leaner mixtures ? does the head even have squish as squish is known to do bad things to emissions.
Sorry, I don't have any answers, still feeling around the bottom of the bed....Ouch, it was a cat....

The key to fundamentally reducing fuel consumption (and unburnt HC emissions) is to prevent the fresh mixture escaping into the exhaust and out to atmosphere.
4Ts do it by separating the exhaust and inlet cycles. 2Ts achieve this by either injecting the fuel into the cylinder after exhaust port closure or:
1. Transferring the charge at a time when the exhaust port is closed
2. Transferring the charge at a time when the fuel cannot escape out the exhaust, say, by having to travel a long path
3. Ensuring that any charge that has passed out the exhaust has been returned into the cylinder.

So, as the Ryger is running the standard exhaust, it is doubtful 3. can be well controlled. So, from what I can see, it's either 1. or 2. Could have missed something maybe?

As a total aside, at Orbital ages ago, we set up a motoring rig and on this was a 4cyl 4T engine, but no head. At 2 - 3k rpm, oil was collecting on top of piston. Stop it, wipe it, re-run it and the same. My conclusion from that was that while oil control rings are very important, some form of high pressure above the piston during the cycle is further necessary to prevent oil migrating upwards to above the piston. So, given the Ryger doesn't use oil, say no more than a 4T, then either its piston or rod or mechanism must at least be subject to a positive pumping pressure.

[breezy]

:no: :shutup:

Engine Losses - 62.4 percent

In gasoline-powered vehicles, over 62 percent of the fuel's energy is lost in the internal combustion engine (ICE). ICE engines are very inefficient at converting the fuel's chemical energy to mechanical energy, losing energy to engine friction, pumping air into and out of the engine, and wasted heat.

Advanced engine technologies such as variable valve timing and lift, turbocharging, direct fuel injection, and cylinder deactivation can be used to reduce these losses.

maybe its that simple :laugh::laugh:

[Ocean1]

As a total aside, at Orbital ages ago, we set up a motoring rig and on this was a 4cyl 4T engine, but no head. At 2 - 3k rpm, oil was collecting on top of piston. Stop it, wipe it, re-run it and the same. My conclusion from that was that while oil control rings are very important, some form of high pressure above the piston during the cycle is further necessary to prevent oil migrating upwards to above the piston. So, given the Ryger doesn't use oil, say no more than a 4T, then either its piston or rod or mechanism must at least be subject to a positive pumping pressure.

Or there's a low pressure, (vacuum) maintained in the crank case?

[husaberg]

Engine Losses - 62.4 percent

In gasoline-powered vehicles, over 62 percent of the fuel's energy is lost in the internal combustion engine (ICE). ICE engines are very inefficient at converting the fuel's chemical energy to mechanical energy, losing energy to engine friction, pumping air into and out of the engine, and wasted heat.

Advanced engine technologies such as variable valve timing and lift, turbocharging, direct fuel injection, and cylinder deactivation can be used to reduce these losses.
maybe its that simple :laugh::laugh:
charge cooling........any method of fuel injection should lead to better control over low speed emissions


Or there's a low pressure, (vacuum) maintained in the crank case?
Now we are talking, things spinning in vacuums have little friction.

Pretty sure most old style supercharged two strokes had no modern reed valves or fuel injection.

[Ocean1]

Now we are talking, things spinning in vacuums have little friction.

Pretty sure most old style supercharged two strokes had no modern reed valves or fuel injection.

You don't get nothing for nothing, If you pump the case down to bugger all you've just increased the effective compression without the usual penalties, but you've still got to pump air into that cylinder somehow, eh?

[husaberg]

You don't get nothing for nothing, If you pump the case down to bugger all you've just increased the effective compression without the usual penalties, but you've still got to pump air into that cylinder somehow, eh?

Not when you are not using the traditional crankcase.
Anyway from memory with a two stroke its 1/3 losses for additional crankcase compression pressure without cooling.

[Flettner]

What if, there is more than one way to get linnear motion apart from a scotch yoke. A crank within a crank using a fixed gear on the case, hard to explain without showing it but the upshot is a linnear movement, rod and piston could be one, with the rod ( round )and piston being guided by a bush ( and seal ) under the piston but above the crankcase. Piston might not even need rings as we know them. Occilating components could be made very lite. I saw this mechanisim on a Dutch printing machine once;)

Could an exhaust chamber have a half wave ( you know, work at twice the length with two lots of pulses running up and down over each other ) ie a chamber thats good for 15,000 might also be good for 30,000?
If this is all true Frits, don't answer:yes:

[ken seeber]

I think we should be thinking simple, really simple. Frits reckons 98% of the parts are OEM VM parts so it can't be too much different. Also consider that a crude assumption or fact about an IC engine is that of the fuel energy, 30% goes to power, 30% to engine heat and 30% to exhaust. If the engine is 70 hp = 52 kW. That's a shitload of energy at your disposal, at a relatively high grade. Have no idea of what energy is used in performing the well understood "expansion chamber function", but I just can't see it being anywhere near 52kW. Otherwise, it is just escaping out the tailpipe as waste heat and a nice noise.

[Sketchy_Racer]

May not be of relevance,

But in regards to the Ryger, Frits can you answer whether the motor idles like a normal 2T. For example 1500-2000 RPM idle speed

[husaberg]

What if, there is more than one way to get linnear motion apart from a scotch yoke. A crank within a crank using a fixed gear on the case, hard to explain without showing it but the upshot is a linnear movement, rod and piston could be one, with the rod ( round )and piston being guided by a bush ( and seal ) under the piston but above the crankcase. Piston might not even need rings as we know them. Occilating components could be made very lite. I saw this mechanisim on a Dutch printing machine once;)

Could an exhaust chamber have a half wave ( you know, work at twice the length with two lots of pulses running up and down over each other ) ie a chamber thats good for 15,000 might also be good for 30,000?
If this is all true Frits, don't answer:yes:

Not hard to draw its a rack.
Are you meaning this
https://d2t1xqejof9utc.cloudfront.net/screenshots/pics/e10509e861e9ca1f3ef3af605ac19fc3/medium.gif
Actually have a look here

https://grabcad.com/library/most-liked/tag/mechanism?per_page=100

Yes they do, some good some bad all in patterns. Wob and Frits have mentioned them pretty sure Jennings covers them. harmonic?
I remember there was alternate length calculations in the old 4 stroke intake calculations.


https://youtu.be/fiJKeyHk-II

[breezy]

Not when you are not using the traditional crankcase.
Anyway from memory with a two stroke its 1/3 losses for additional crankcase compression pressure without cooling.

"Vacuum tube-based transport has a lot of things going for it. Speed, for one. Anyone who has spent time on a fast motorcycle knows that even without any wind, the air itself is a brutally powerful force working against your engine as you get up above 125 mph (200 km/h). In fact, air resistance is the number one problem to combat as speeds increase." (taken from maglev site):


so running in a vacuum is frictionless? things get sucked into a vacuum? like a black hole in star trek..(:niceone:) " engine revs to 30,000rpm".... then goes into melt down?. wonder why hp only quoted at 17,000 rpm.

maybe the crank, if its isolated / insulated from engine is made to work like maglev systems at certain times:no:

[dtenney]

My bet is the Ryger motor is a short stroke motor utilizing the FOS port system......thus the high rpm with the time area needed for the motor to breathe.

[breezy]

My bet is the Ryger motor is a short stroke motor utilizing the FOS port system......thus the high rpm with the time area needed for the motor to breathe.

still with some kind of help with the breathing of the engine as well, to counteract the time the very short time the ports are open at high rpm. vacuum pumps/pressure pumps, cat convertor on exhaust. forget about using exhaust supercharging with return wave, use it for something else.

[jonny quest]

Bringing up the idle is a point I made too. I'd guess it's very high.

Trans oil to lubricate crank. Two reed valves. One installed in reverse for below piston to relieve pressure, the second higher with direct intake over piston.

The low reed is plumbed into airbox.

That's my guess.

Frits, can you answer this? Is the Ryger easy to start?

[Yow Ling]

Rhomboid drive ?
is the 98% by mass or parts count?

[Frits Overmars]

Could an exhaust chamber have a half wave ( you know, work at twice the length with two lots of pulses running up and down over each other ) ie a chamber thats good for 15,000 might also be good for 30,000?
If this is all true Frits, don't answerLet's look at it from the other side. And let's stick to rev numbers that don't scare everybody.
Say you have an engine with a pipe that is working optimal at 12,000 rpm. Then at 2/3 x 12,000 rpm (that's 8,000) it's pure disaster: the pipe pulses will shove the washed-through mixture all the way back into the crankcase just before the transfers close, and then suck the remaining cylinder contents out of the cylinder just before the exhaust closes.
But at 1/2 x 12000 (you do the math) it's looking better again. The pipe will shove mixture back into the crankcase alright, but then it will suck it back from the crankcase into the cylinder for a second time before the transfers close, and send a second stuffing pulse to the exhaust port just before it closes.
So yes, a pipe that is designed for 12,000 rpm, will also do some good at 6000 rpm (a little lower actually because the exhaust gas temperature at 6,000 rpm will be lower than at 12,000 rpm).

[Frits Overmars]

Frits can you answer whether the motor idles like a normal 2T. For example 1500-2000 RPM idle speed
Frits, can you answer this? Is the Ryger easy to start?You guys ask me if I can answer your questions. The answer is: yes, I can :devil2:.

(OK, the Ryger is easy to start and idles like a normal 2T. I wonder what this candour is going to cost me; I hope I can settle the matter with some ice cream).

[Flettner]

Not hard to draw its a rack.
Are you meaning this
https://d2t1xqejof9utc.cloudfront.net/screenshots/pics/e10509e861e9ca1f3ef3af605ac19fc3/medium.gif
Actually have a look here

https://grabcad.com/library/most-liked/tag/mechanism?per_page=100

Yes they do, some good some bad all in patterns. Wob and Frits have mentioned them pretty sure Jennings covers them. harmonic?
I remember there was alternate length calculations in the old 4 stroke intake calculations.


https://youtu.be/fiJKeyHk-II

I think you will find it's a variation of this setup, not quite like this.

[husaberg]

Yes, sort of like that.

that link has hundreds of linkages and so forth
https://grabcad.com/library/most-liked/tag/mechanism?per_page=100

Rhomboid drive ?
is the 98% by mass or parts count?

Yow mentioned Rhombic but I was thinking one with more control over dwell.

https://youtu.be/loi4Uln2VLQ
the counter rotating cranks are pretty cool though.

[TZ350]

Page ... 1200


An 8K wide power spread is meaningless. Any difference between the maximum and minimum rpm values of a power band is meaningless. It is the ratio between those maximum and minimum rpm values that counts: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130525788#post1130525788


I decided to write this little story about power curve comparison after reading the following posts from fellow members AAAA and BBBB.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by AAAA
A 2000 rpm wide powerband at 5000 rpm is the same width as a 4000 rpm powerband at 10000 rpm once the gearing has been corrected to give them both the same performance.


Originally Posted by BBBB
If the rpm ratio is the same and the average power within the range is the same, the two powerbands would be "functionally equivalent". That is, a change to the overall gear ratio would make them perform the same...... The same average power over a given rpm range will produce the same average acceleration. It does not matter what the "shape" of the powerband is -- sloping upward, sloping downward, or flat.

I could not agree more, BBBB. But it requires a fundamental definition of 'average power'. And that is not 'the area under the power curve'.



also from BBBB: Although we can narrow the powerband down to the absolute limit and have it show excellent results in a simulation like Dynabike, I'd want to have more margin than that for any application except maybe drag racing or bench racing. It is one thing to operate out front at "full speed" on the track, but traffic can cause you to operate in an undesirable part of the powerband. Similarly, recovering from a mistake (missed shift, forgetting how many downshifts a particular corner requires, etc.) is another reason we need a broader powerband.

Once again I fully agree and I would add that this could only come frome someone with actual competition experience. Any engine builder who thinks he can base his powerbands on the ratios of a gearbox, is not going to make his riders very happy - in fact he is not going to keep them very long.

Peak power alone does not say much about the usefulness of an engine. The combination of power curve and transmission, the sort of application the engine will be used for, and the abilities of the rider, together define which is the optimum engine character.

An example: a 125 cc road race engine can always be kept between 10.000 and 14.000 rpm thanks to its six-speed gearbox. Wether this engine produces 2 hp or 20 hp at 6000 rpm, is unimportant.
But a kart engine with direct drive without a gearbox has trouble staying above 5000 rpm in slow corners; it only can manage to do so by means of a very short gearing that forces the engine to rev over 17.000 rpm on the straightaway. For such a kart it is imperative that acceleration out of slow corners does not cost too much time. There may be only one such corner on the whole circuit, but time lost there cannot be made up by a higher top speed on the straight.
Therefore a sensible tuner will not concentrate on peak power; he will make sure that the power is never really bad in the whole range from 5000 to 17.000 rpm (in this kart-example).

I prefer to work not with a powerband but with a power range, which I define as the highest rpm of a power curve, divided by its lowest rpm.
Experience has taught what kind of power range is needed for a certain application. Road racing calls for a range of about 1.4 . When a CVT is involved, I imagine 1.2 over even less might be enough (though I'm only guessing here as I have next to no experience with these things). Motocross calls for something like 2. A touring bike needs at least 3 to be comfortable. And the direct-drive kart in the above-mentioned example needs about 3.4 (17.000/5000).

Let us asume we have a measured power curve from 7000 to 14000 rpm. That gives a power range of 2.
Within this power curve all possible range values are investigated, from range=1.00; range=1.01; range=1.02; etc, up to range=2.
For each of these range values the whole power curve is examined in order to find which lower and upper rpm values yield the highest average power.
For range=1.5 for instance, we start with calculating the average power between 7000 and 10.500 rpm. Then we proceed with 7010--10.515; then with 7020--10.530; and so on, until the final possibility of 9333--14.000 rpm. And the highest value found is stored as THE average power for range 1.5, together with its corresponding lower and upper rpm limits.

All stored values for average power are displayed in range graphs. So when you are preparing an engine that will need a range of 1.6 , you can see at a single glance which engine delivers the best average power at range 1.6 . Furthermore you can see between which rpm values this engine is most effective. And you don't need to fall into the trap that ALL engine builders have fallen into at some time: attaching too much importance to peak power.

Maybe you are used to comparing the acceleration times of different engines on an inertial dyno. But that only makes sense if these engines are all run between the same initial rpm and the same final rpm, AND all with the same gearing.
The range concept does not suffer from any of these limitations; it functions under all circumstances. And because you can compare the range graphs of all your engines, you'll be able to distinguish much quicker which range is best for a specific application. That is an experience you would otherwise only gather after years of trial and error.

Suppose you are preparing an engine for an application that requires a power range of 1.5. Then which of the two power curves below should you pick? Hard to say, isn't it? But when you look at the power range curves on the right, it is clear as day: the yellow curve wins.
280962280963

Two more power curves. The yellow curve does not look very useful. But maybe it could work with a CVT.... The power range curve on the right tells us what we need to know. If the CVT can keep within a 1.2 rpm range, the yellow curve is OK. And if the CVT can keep within a 1.1 rpm range, the yellow curve is a winner!
280964280965

Another advantage of the power range curve: it can show you the rpm limits you should operate between. At range 1.2 the yellow power curve works best between 9970 rpm (the blue curve) and 11.964 rpm (the white curve).
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Earlier I claimed that average power is NOT the area under the power curve. A claim like this calls for an explanation, so here goes.
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Take a look at the power curve above. It is a peculiar curve where at rpm-point E the power totally collapses, but then comes back. The reason I drew it like this will become clear in a minute.
We can look at the red area under the curve and convert that to a rectangle. The yellow rectangle in the picture below has the same area as the red areas under the original power curve. So you could say the average power between rpm-point A and rpm-point B has a magnitude equal to the height A--D. Or could you?
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Let us put the engine with the peculiar red power curve in a vehicle and start accelerating, from rpm-point A to rpm-point B. How long will that take? It will take forever because the power at rpm-point E is zero, so acceleration at point E is zero; we will never get past that point. Acceleration from A to B will take an eternity which means that average power between A and B is zero!

Admittedly you won't encounter a power curve like the one in the first red picture very often. But the acceleration versus area argument holds for any power curve. Let's take a look at a 'normal' curve without a zero-power point. The curve below is split up into 9 equal rectangles, each with a horizontal dimension A--B that represents rpm, and a vertical dimension A--G that represents power.
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When you convert the sum area of those 9 rectangles into a single rectangle with the same rpm spread A--F, it will have a height A--H that is 1.8 * A--G. Assuming A--G equals 1 HP, then the average power A--H would be 1.8 HP (picture below).
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Now let us look at the same power curve and determine the average power via the acceleration approach. We will assume that acceleration from A to B with the available power A--G takes 1 second.
Between B and C the power is twice as much, so acceleration from B to C will take ½ second. And so on.
Total acceleration from A to F takes 20/6 s. If this acceleration were to have a constant value, it would take 1/5 * 20/6 = 4/6 s from A to B. This would require a constant power of 6/4 * A--G. Assuming again that A--G equals 1 HP, then the average power would be 1.5 HP instead of the 1.8 HP that came out of the area-approach...
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[TZ350]

that link has hundreds of linkages and so forth:- https://grabcad.com/library/most-liked/tag/mechanism?per_page=100x


Followed Husaburgs link and found this:- https://grabcad.com/library/hypocyclic-engine-mechanism-1

312650

30,000 crank rpm and workable piston velocity's in the more normal 15,000 rpm range that we are used too. At 2:1 the usual port STA's would easily work for 17,000 hypocyclic crank rpm ( which would be, 8,500 old school engine rpm).

[Flettner]

Followed Husaburgs link and found this:- https://grabcad.com/library/hypocyclic-engine-mechanism-1

312650

30,000 crank rpm and workable piston velocity's in the more normal 15,000 rpm range that we are used too. At 2:1 the usual port STA's would easily work for 17,000 hypocyclic crank rpm ( which would be, 8,500 old school engine rpm).

Thank you TZ, I was just trying to post this. There's your answer!
And that's what the machined plate is, a guide in the centre that the round conrod moves up and down in with a seal of some sort to stop the fourstroke bottom end ( oil pressure ) spewing up to the top past this guide bushing. Piston need not rub on the cylinder wall. Simple ( ish ).
Arr, now I can sleep at night again.

[chrisc]

I thought the patent for the Ryger was found? Wouldn't that show or describe the crank/piston arrangement?
I love the interest and discussion the Ryger engine has stirred! I bet we all are chewing on the bit to ride/drive something with an engine like that.

[husaberg]

I thought the patent for the Ryger was found? Wouldn't that show or describe the crank/piston arrangement?
I love the interest and discussion the Ryger engine has stirred! I bet we all are chewing on the bit to ride/drive something with an engine like that.

98% of what was found didn't fit the simple definition.

[lodgernz]

Followed Husaburgs link and found this:- https://grabcad.com/library/hypocyclic-engine-mechanism-1

312650

30,000 crank rpm and workable piston velocity's in the more normal 15,000 rpm range that we are used too. At 2:1 the usual port STA's would easily work for 17,000 hypocyclic crank rpm ( which would be, 8,500 old school engine rpm).

Are you sure Rob? It looks to me like the crankshaft still only does one revolution per up and down of the piston, as a normal 2T.
Even if the crank did spin at twice the "piston revs", what would be the point of that? Number of power strokes per unit time is one of our power determinants. The crank turning twice as fast, or any other relatve speed, won't alter that.
Or have I completely missed the point?

[TZ350]

Are you sure Rob? It looks to me like the crankshaft still only does one revolution per up and down of the piston, as a normal 2T.

No not sure, and you could be right.


Even if the crank did spin at twice the "piston revs", what would be the point of that?

Two advantages I can think off straight away.

1) Width of the power spread, if a normal crank has a power spread of 4K then a 2:1 crank would be 8K. An 8K wide power spread from a 2T would be handy.

2) The magic exhaust port duration of 192 for reinforced superimposition of the wave action in the chamber would be easier to achieve with the lower blowdown STA required for a motor doing only half the rpm it was before.

[peewee]

do you rekon i can put in some proper size exh ports now :laugh:

[husaberg]

No not sure, and you could be right.



Two advantages I can think off straight away.

1) Width of the power spread, if a normal crank has a power spread of 4K then a 2:1 crank would be 8K. An 8K wide power spread from a 2T would be handy.

2) The magic exhaust port duration of 192 for reinforced superimposition of the wave action in the chamber would be easier to achieve with the lower blowdown STA required for a motor doing only half the rpm it was before.

Not following the engine speed and power strokes are unchanged only the crankshaft speed, (might be missing something?)
I only see advantage in the counter rotations bob weights and linear motion though.

[Frits Overmars]

if a normal crank has a power spread of 4K then a 2:1 crank would be 8K. An 8K wide power spread from a 2T would be handy.An 8K wide power spread is meaningless. Any difference between the maximum and minimum rpm values of a power band is meaningless.
It is the ratio between those maximum and minimum rpm values that counts: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130525788#post1130525788

[Flettner]

No not sure, and you could be right.



Two advantages I can think off straight away.

1) Width of the power spread, if a normal crank has a power spread of 4K then a 2:1 crank would be 8K. An 8K wide power spread from a 2T would be handy.

2) The magic exhaust port duration of 192 for reinforced superimposition of the wave action in the chamber would be easier to achieve with the lower blowdown STA required for a motor doing only half the rpm it was before.

The two cranks are half stroke. 54mm equals 27mm each, that would give high rpm so long as it was ballanced.

[TZ350]

do you rekon i can put in some proper size exh ports now :laugh:

Good Effort. .... :2thumbsup