ESE's works engine tuner

[peewee]

Let's assume a port width of 65% of the bore. Then you can calculate the vertical half-axis yourself; that is why I posted my port shape concept in the first place.
314714
The minimum safe vertical half-axis becomes
0,7 x (port width / cylinder bore)^4,57 x cylinder bore
= 0,7 x 0,65^4,57 x cylinder bore
= 0,09775 x cylinder bore

Converting this half-axis into center and corner radii can't be done with a simple formula, so I'll do it for you, once-only.
center radius = 88% of bore
corner radii = 5,2% of bore

But wait, there's more.
From your screenshot:
exhaust port height from top = 47,0 mm
exhaust port window height = 30,7 mm
You didn't stipulate the cylinder bore, the stroke and the conrod length and I don't fancy searching through the forum to see whether you gave them before, so I'm going to assume the values I need:
stroke = 77,7 mm
con rod length = 148 mm
exhaust timing = 172°
Now I'll leave it to Wobbly to tell you what to expect...

my apologies frits. i should have mentioned that a simple answer would of been fine as im sure you havent much time for these type of questions :laugh:. really the question i was getting at earlier was if i would be ok with a flatter roof, since the window width will likely be less than 70%. ill try your 88% value . i found my old calculator from college and it says based on 90.5mm bore and 58.5mm flow width the vertical half axis to be 9.5% (8.6mm) so ill keep that in mind also

wobbly i can send it as its in a pack file. what you see in the pic is as the cylinder was cast for the most part. except the welding of the main port. btw where do i send it , wobbly@yahoo.com ? would you rather see it after ive finished or before i get started ?

keep in mind ill be completely restructuring the trans tunells per rsa style radiuses but i dont know how much that will affect the STA values. i hope to have some templates in a few days but its not so easy as the studs wont allow exact rsa radiuses so ill need to fudge it alittle

[wobbly]

I will have a look when its finished.
The transfer duct geometry does not affect the STA, only the scavenging model used and the duct entry conditions.

[peewee]

wob just a question on the C window or D window in my case. i got noticing on a few cylinders (rsa, ktm250, yamaha twin) that the C width is consistant at approx 36-37% of bore. this cylinder im working on has D (A,B,C are side ports) width at 38% but it has a 8mm bridge going vertical through it. if you subtract the bridge, the two D windows combined only eqaul 29% bore. theres no way in hell ill get the C all the way around to the D, which will leave some empty wall space. do you see any good reason i shouldnt make the two D windows wider ? the total width of D would be closer to 45-50% bore but the windows (minus the bridge) would only be around 35-40% bore depending how wide i made them and depending how far around back i can get C. i started working on the inlet but you can see what i meen about D

if your thinking to remove the small section of bridge between the D windows, im not sure if thats a good idea. i would be very nervous about the lower section cracking. the lower portion of bridge through the big windows is only 5mm wide and tapers to a smaller bullnose as it goes toward the reed block, if that makes sense

[wobbly]

The twin D port flow will be less than a single port due to the greater enclosing wall area, so you will need extra port anyway.
But use EngMod and see what the STA is going to be once you have widened C to where you are happy.
Its the old story that wider and lower makes it easyer to generate the blowdown without having to resort to an excessively high Ex timing
and or enormous Aux.

[Frits Overmars]

this cylinder im working on has .. a 8mm bridge going vertical through it.... do you see any good reason i shouldnt make the two D windows wider ?Where are your piston ring gaps?

[marsheng]

I'm looking for a Yamaha FZR250 front wheel that takes 2 disks. 17" x 2.75 is ideal. I have a single sided rim that I can exchange for your twin or I can buy your twin. Tried TM but none available. Thanks Wallace 03 3237449

[Flettner]

I got my bottom end sorted:laugh:
I'll post a before and after, after being, picking all the bits up from where they spreed themselves round the yard :eek:

Nah, just tricking, there are plenty of engine parts around the yard but most of them got there by osmosis not by explosion. But the "bottom end" will do 3000 revs driven by the milling machine, now to just add another zero. We did however have a small seizure of one crank hydrodynamic bearings, thats just a fancy way of saying plain metal bushing, probably should put an oil pump in it to supply those hydrodynamics. We are talking a ryger style bottom end:msn-wink:

[Flettner]

Now, what to do with the top end? I was just going to run an AG 100 barrel ( one of those engine parts deposited around the yard) just to make it work but I'm thinking bugger it, I'll make a "proper" cylinder, one with a high under piston pressure and short transfers ( very short piston ), back three ports will be piston port and 180 dgrees later same ports will feed straight into the cylinder. Got to start somewhere don't we? I'll leave the transfer reeds out for the miniute. Just enough knowlage to be dangerous:facepalm:
If only the ring is in contact with the bore, will the cylinder wall need any coating? Cast from high silicon alloy, no coating, best heat transfer yet.

[Lightbulb]

Either way Neil, your are going to be much wiser. You will learn that it works and all is well, or you will learn it is another thing not to try again.
Neil L

[Flettner]

Either way Neil, your are going to be much wiser. You will learn that it works and all is well, or you will learn it is another thing not to try again.
Neil L

I wish that were true, usually you just end up with more questions. What is it "the more you know, the more you know you don't know" or something like that.

[Lightbulb]

Well with model engines, I have a huge library of what does not work and is a waste of time that people swear is worth xxxx rpm.
Like you say, the more you do, the more you realise you just don't know.
That is what is so interesting about the Ryger engine. Even guys like Frits has had a major challenge to his thinking on how these simple things work.
One day we will all be enlightened and I hope it is not too far away.
Maybe some of the ideas I have about how the engines work may not be so far off track after all, or else I maybe completely wrong and have only had some success from the odds of try enough things and eventually something has to work.
Neil

[adegnes]

"Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm."
- Winston Churchill

[adegnes]

Now, what to do with the top end? I was just going to run an AG 100 barrel ( one of those engine parts deposited around the yard) just to make it work but I'm thinking bugger it, I'll make a "proper" cylinder, one with a high under piston pressure and short transfers ( very short piston ), back three ports will be piston port and 180 dgrees later same ports will feed straight into the cylinder. Got to start somewhere don't we? I'll leave the transfer reeds out for the miniute. Just enough knowlage to be dangerous:facepalm:
If only the ring is in contact with the bore, will the cylinder wall need any coating? Cast from high silicon alloy, no coating, best heat transfer yet.

Fast forward a couple of months; The Ryger engine turns out to be nothing like this at all, but now The Flettner is churning out 80+ hp @ 20000 and safely reving past 40k.

[adegnes]

Hey, maybe this whole Ryger thing is just a scheme to get alot of minds on the case of making a better two stroke...

[Flettner]

Hey, maybe this whole Ryger thing is just a scheme to get alot of minds on the case of making a better two stroke...

That has certainly happened, this not burning oil is a huge advance.

[WilDun]

Hey, maybe this whole Ryger thing is just a scheme to get alot of minds on the case of making a better two stroke...

I agree, this wave of enthusiasm can't possibly pass without some sort of good spinoff !

[Flettner]

Now, what to do with the top end? I was just going to run an AG 100 barrel ( one of those engine parts deposited around the yard) just to make it work but I'm thinking bugger it, I'll make a "proper" cylinder, one with a high under piston pressure and short transfers ( very short piston ), back three ports will be piston port and 180 dgrees later same ports will feed straight into the cylinder. Got to start somewhere don't we? I'll leave the transfer reeds out for the miniute. Just enough knowlage to be dangerous:facepalm:
If only the ring is in contact with the bore, will the cylinder wall need any coating? Cast from high silicon alloy, no coating, best heat transfer yet.

Thinking about the top end again last night (another sleepless night), the transfer reeds might have to be there even for a half resonable test.
One thing did come to light with yesterdays test, the crank I'm using is one end off a four cylinder and is ballanced as such so it will shake a bit. I WILL have to fit a ballance shaft or make a proper crank. With the engine being made from solid alloy it won't be a problem to bore a hole and fit a ballance shaft. After the way a ballance shaft fixed my 700 twin vibration, I like them.

[WilDun]

After the way a ballance shaft fixed my 700 twin vibration, I like them.

Do they soak up much power?
Just a thought, - the forces we are trying to cancel when using balance shafts are actually still there, the opposing forces are there also and any force requires energy to produce. - then maybe I'm just being a wet blanket?

[AndreasL]

While waiting for the Ryger revealing I might amuse you with my own first steps with two strokes... :rolleyes:

I know its so many things that are wrong (look at the pictures) but without showing them and asking for advise I will never learn, and thats why I'm here.

I wanted to have a look at the piston and recheck the squish after my first runs. Glad I did.

Basic info and known issues:
- 60's design, 50cc, lasy commuter moped.
- Aftermarket (OEM copy) cylinder with 2 crap transfer at 129°. :brick:
- A too long (straight) header and crap after market pipe.
- 12:1 com and ~0.95-1.0 mm squish all over the squish band except for the outer most part that was 1.05-1.12. :brick:
- Mikuni Vm18
- 19-20° straight ignition

The goal was a street engine peaking at 7500rpm.
EngMod has been used to get all data. It corresponds really well, but at a lower power level. (Need to finish the FOS-pipe.)

Things to fix and thoughts about what can be improved:
- Reangle the squish band and set it to ~0.6 mm. Lower will probably be fine but the crank is old and weak so play it safe.
- FOS-pipe like the one in EngMod needs to be made. Have great hopes for this one but who knows...
- Play with the ignition. EngMod says 16°, but to be honest, the effect is small in my sims. Maybe cos of the low revs?
- To me it looks like I'm still rich? Down at 80 main jet started at 110 that was really bad. Started with a 30 pilot jet and now at 17.5. The mixture screw still needs to be turned out to far. Have a 15 and a 12.5 to try but it feels small???
- Running 4% Shell Racing M (castor). I know about the build up of carbon etc. From the pics one might have second thoughts about running such oil in any thing else then racing applications at 15000rpm?
- I have tried to point the crap transfers to the rear wall per Wobblys suggestions at ~60°. I also need to check the axial angle and alter it with the "stucco verde" I recieved the other day if not at around 30°.
- Replace the #8 spark plug with a 9. I'm under the impression that things a bit warm? Hope a decent squish will help lowering the temp.

Any readers left?

Please add any thoughts and suggestions that can be read from the chamber pattern.

Last I would like to thank the Kiwi Biker Forums, Frits, Wobbly, TZ350, Neels/EngMod and all others here that have taught me more or less everything I know about 2T. :first:

And now for the embarrassing part...the pictures. :p
About 100 km running. 70 km with the 80/17.5 jets, 60/40 slow riding/maximum load.

314748
Ex port to the right

314749
Ex port pointing down

Thanks for listening!

[Flettner]

Do they soak up much power?
Just a thought, - the forces we are trying to cancel when using balance shafts are actually still there, the opposing forces are there also and any force requires energy to produce. - then maybe I'm just being a wet blanket?

It takes energy to shake (move) the engine, as in vibration, so yes the balance shaft does use power but it also saves wasted energy by stopping the engine actualy moving (30,000 times a miniute if it were Ryger)
As in the 700 twins case, I wouldn't want to fly without a balance shaft as I'm sure the engine would rip itself out of the engine mount in a very short order. No more cracked exhausts.

[WilDun]

It takes energy to shake (move) the engine, as in vibration, so yes the balance shaft does use power but it also saves wasted energy by stopping the engine actualy moving (30,000 times a miniute if it were Ryger)
As in the 700 twins case, I wouldn't want to fly without a balance shaft as I'm sure the engine would rip itself out of the engine mount in a very short order. No more cracked exhausts.
Just like a highly tuned woman, calm smooth exteria but the imbalance is still in there

Ha,Ha, all true, I guess all of life is really only one big compromise and we have to find our way around it.


BTW. ANDREAS,
Didn't mean to butt in just in front of your query, but that's what happens sometimes! - experts will no doubt be still at work I guess (Friday) - then, there's the weekend coming up. :facepalm:

[peewee]

Where are your piston ring gaps?

in the photo from two pages back did you see the vertical pencil lines at the outer edge of the D windows ? thats where the ring gaps are. this is a inside view as you can see how all the bridges are connected. removing the bridge between the D windows seems like a good idea but the lower portion of the bridge is only 5mm wide at the bore face and tapers thinner to a ball nose as it goes toward the reed block. if it were to crack somehow i think it would be a bad situation. since the upper bridge section is about 8mm wide, i could thin it a bit and widen the windows. another idea, depending how far around back i get the C windows, i could likely add two more of the small D windows, for a total of four. whether or not this is a good idea i dont know but i have seen some cylinders with multiple small C/D windows. what idea do you have ?

[twotempi]

If only the ring is in contact with the bore, will the cylinder wall need any coating? Cast from high silicon alloy, no coating, best heat transfer yet.

I think that Mercedes have a system for coating alloy cylinders that uses a paste that is forced into/unto the cylinder walls with an expanding roller arrangement.

Might not work with two-stroke cylinders with multiple ports though.

Does anyone have any info on this ??

[Frits Overmars]

in the photo from two pages back did you see the vertical pencil lines at the outer edge of the D windows ? thats where the ring gaps are. this is a inside view as you can see how all the bridges are connected. removing the bridge between the D windows seems like a good idea...I don't think the piston rings will agree. Removing the bridge would give the ring ends too much free overhang.
314784

since the upper bridge section is about 8mm wide, i could thin it a bit and widen the windows. Another idea, depending how far around back i get the C windows, i could likely add two more of the small D windows, for a total of four.I wouldn't thin the bridge down either; the bottom-rear lip of the cylinder sleeve needs all the support it currently has.
Widening the C-ports would be best for power. If that's not possible you could widen the D-ports towards the C-ports.
But whatever you do, you won't find much power with your 172° exhaust timing. And the current blowdown angle.area is so small that the cylinder will be severly heated by spent gases entering the transfers at anything above a guesstimated 3500 rpm.

[peewee]

Frits im not at my computer now but I think the exh opened at 90atdc but remember I havent had a chance to optimize it in engmod yet

[Frits Overmars]

Frits im not at my computer now but I think the exh opened at 90atdc but remember I havent had a chance to optimize it in engmod yetThe 172° exhaust timing was based on your post # 18989, Peewee.
180° may be OK if you are planning some relaxed enduro riding, but for a competition bike 190° seems like the minimum to me. Ask EngMod and/or Wobbly.

[peewee]

Thnx for the help frits but I wouldnt even waste my time on a enduro bike. :bleh:

[AndreasL]

BTW. ANDREAS,
Didn't mean to butt in just in front of your query, but that's what happens sometimes! - experts will no doubt be still at work I guess (Friday) - then, there's the weekend coming up. :facepalm:

No need to apologize WilDun.
This is a party and people talk to each other and changing subjects all the time. It's great!

Friday and all, but my questions isn't really Ryger, RSA or even on par with the hottest Buckets so if interest is low it's understandable. :rolleyes:

I'm sure I will have some guidance as soon the gurus have a minute to spare.
With that said I consider all readers of this thread gurus. *flatter flatter*

[peewee]

wob, frits, is there any secrets about these small inlet ports ? so far what i did was make them bigger, with no sharp corners anywhere. it probly cant be seen in the photo but i made each corner as large of radius as possible so hopefully the air can follow without much trouble. even the inlet floor leading through the boyesen to the case has a nice radius . the ports may need to be bigger yet but this is as far as i made it tonight. theres a before pic to compare. every corner was sharp as a razor

[peewee]

The 172° exhaust timing was based on your post # 18989, Peewee.

i realized why the 172 sounded a bit off. the cylinder was meant for 80mm stroke but the crankshaft now is 82mm so the piston is poking a bit over the top :laugh:

[breezy]

morning, ( 9.04 England) can anyone direct me to the page which had some details of a programmable ignition system i think it was for small rc engines. ive tried to look through the thread picture search but i cant see it. im also looking for details for the ignition curve on an early standard cagiva mito 125 engine , any help would be very appreciated .. thanks

[adegnes]

This one?

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130830075#post1130830075



Another subject for the party-people...

I've ordered one of these for testing:

CE-i 100 with sensor SE-1
http://www.power-spark.de/images/Lieferumfang_Verpackung_800p.jpg
http://www.power-spark.de
Manual here http://www.power-spark.de/downloads/Bedienungsanleitung_PowerSpark_engl_2011_1.pdf

Seems like a good unit, has it's limitations, but for my use (variated engine) it should suffice.

Some features and limitations:

- 4 programmable ignition maps (and 10 preprogrammed maps - non of them seemed very useful, maybe for small rc engines)

- no computer needed, programming is done with a magnet(!), seems slow and weird but hey, no computer needed.

- Four adjustable rpm-points only (actually just three, the first point has to be 0rpm), this is very limiting for most, but for my variated setup it's ok.

- Easy setup; there's a "sensing mode" where it notifies you when it senses the magnet - just lock the crank at 75° btdc (what the manual say's it should be) and rotate the flywheel until the magnet is sensed - tighten up, done. If you manage to fuck up, you can adjust the 75° to something else, but anything under 75 limits how much advance you can run at high revs. (they give an example; if you set it to 70° btdc you can "only" run 35° advance @ 26500rpm, yeah thats gonna be a problem.)

++

I also asked Ignitech what they would charge for a dccdip modified to be used with an hall sensor - same price as the regular unit. So if this Power-spark is no good, I'll just get the tried and true Ignitech, and reuse the hall sensor pickup.

I'll post a small review when I get it up and running, if anyones interested.

[gamma500]

vhm racing testing exhaust port flow, 4° piston top vs flat top with radius.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KRwOObWCtA

other interesting videos on their channel also

[breezy]

This one?

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130830075#post1130830075

yes, thats the one... thanks:niceone: has it been tried yet?

[adegnes]

yes, thats the one... thanks:niceone: has it been tried yet?

Yep, but I only for a short period, mostly reving on the stand, before I teared down my engine to resolve some issues and switch to the iame cylinder. Worked great and setup was no problem.

Here's a video of it sparking.
https://youtu.be/fNr3grvV6YE-

[TZ350]

Page 1270 ..... links list to go here :eek:

Seattle Smitty started a how to thread, its worth a visit if you are trying to trawl the ESE thread.


How to search within the ESE thread or any Thread for that matter.

Dyno testing of the Fuel Injected Kawasaki F81M two stroke and Yamaha YZ125 http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner/page870


Pages 500 and 1000 have extensive links to other interesting and informative posts.

Page 500 ........ http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner/page500

Page 1000 ...... http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner/page1000

314803

Blowdown is Everything ....... :niceone:

314805 314804


Part throttle detonation and seizure can be an issue with insufficient BlowDown. TZ350's post has Links to Frits and Jan's take on it.


Page 600 B Part throttle detonation


Exhaust Port shape for ring life.


314807

Husaburgs post is worth a visit as it has extensive links to transfer port theory.


Transfer Port theory ... 314802 ... and the Leaning Tower of Pisa


Frits pipe design.

314806


So I have one of the very well made ignitech shifter switches. Now I am faced with the choice of ignition cut or Advance reduction in the ignitech settings. I have been told that advance cut is kinder on the gearbox?

Any views from people using this system would be most welcome. Its on the 300 so a touch over 80hp running through what seam like a great street gearbox. Cheers RB.


Rich, the Ignitech ignition cut works perfectly as long as the sensor is really well mounted such that it works identically every shift.

I use a 12V NPN proximity sensor that pulls the input to ground when it sees the head of a pinch bolt on the shaft going into the gearbox.
Set it up so it triggers just as the shift drum starts to actually move, use 40mS cut with 250mS recover time.

You can tell instantly if the shift cut is too long, in that the riders head will jolt forward, as the engine effectively stops.

If its too short, it will be super hard to actually push the lever into the next gear.
I have tried pulling out advance but it seems to work OK in 5th and 6th, but not in 2nd 3rd where you need more time/cut due to the bigger rev drop.

Running speedshift rounds the drive dogs leading edges quickly no matter how its done, and you will get it jumping out of gear if its not undercut.
Boss in Wanganui do a great job, for bugger all.


As Frits has explained several times the ideal crank has smooth faces with no pockets or cutaways, so this generally means full circle wheels.

It then also has to be able to provide the correct balance factor for the reciprocating assembly.
So a lot of each web can be bored all over the place and filled with alloy/plasic, and any extra correction for balance then achieved with Mallory.


The CRF250 has a stroke of 53.8 and revs to around 17K so yes the plain bearing pressure oiled crank is reliable at those rpm exactly as I would expect.

But the Ryger concept has the same stoke near enough, and we believe its a plain bearing "mechanism " of some sort, but yes ITS reliable at 30,000 rpm we have been told. Not even remotely the same ballpark.

A lot of links about the Ryger engine in Husaburgs post.


Whoops Wob i indeed missed where Frits said it revved to 30000 when he drove it. but i have bolded it and the 54ms.


Ringless pistons. Of course rings add friction, but the trade-off is that they also provide the proportional sealing of pressures, up to around 90 bar (1300 - 1400 psi) at all sorts of rubbing speeds and high temperatures, not a trivial task. Should they fail, as we’ve all seen with a stuck ring; blowby, loss of lubrication and death.

In a small engine, say a glow plug, one seemingly can get away with it, mainly due to viscous sealing because of the typically 20% oil quantity in methanol &/or nitro fuels, and possibly lower overall temperatures inherent in small engines due to the surface area to volume ratio effect providing a much greater heat transfer rate, at the expense of inherent lower overall thermal efficiencies.

Another thing that has been demonstrated, is that the crevice volume, formed between the bore and the top land above the ring, can result in trapped mixture, leading to unburnt HC emissions. This is why rings have been become higher up the piston. This is not so critical in a stratified charge running condition where, hopefully, only air or burnt gases enter and leave the crevice volume.

I am personally of the belief that a large percentage of the heat from the piston is transferred via the ring and rubbing contact of the ring land (the hottest part of the piston) against the bore. This effect is greatest at the TDC and BDC, where the piston land and ring area have the greatest residency time over the cycle. It is for this reason that cooling of the cylinder is best directed at the very top and also adjacent to the BDC area, usually within the transfer passage cup handles.

If Harry is chucking out all that extra power, relative to current levels, then he will have to provide great attention to the piston cooling, does he have a piston?

As to bearing life, things are going to get tough. 100cc rotary / reeds used to rev to 21k, but there were issues.
Sometimes big ends, but with the older vertical reeds aiming between the crankwebs, the big end got much better cooling and lubrication that the now current horizontal reed blocks.

Mostly though, it was piston failure, leading to a rod, then unconstrained, scything its way through the crankcases, ignoring all the M6 screws on its way. A 90 mm rod, over the standard VM rod of 110 mm, is going to place more side thrust load on the piston boss area.

Maybe if it is a wet sump, using the Honda aerated oil lubrication system and retaining the roller bearings, then this could help, bearing in mind that, with the 25 mm spacer plate, the crank/big end will be more remote from the heat source. If it uses plain bearings, then this pretty much implies some sort of high oil pressure system. Maybe there is no big end at all, but some other clever gizmo.

Back to the piston or whatever it is that goes up and down, it will have to be strong to take 30k, but maybe its motion and forces were opposed or dampened, then strength might not be so paramount.
Many a maybe.

He might have done all this and the thing is a real goer with all the claims we have seen. Good on him if this is the case and maybe the world will be a better place. It will inevitably mean change and change means winners and losers. That’s life.

But the good thing is that no matter what improvements have been made, things can always be improved. That’s what you bucketeers are all about.


If only the ring is in contact with the bore, will the cylinder wall need any coating? Cast from high silicon alloy, no coating, best heat transfer yet.

I think that Mercedes have a system for coating alloy cylinders that uses a paste that is forced into/unto the cylinder walls with an expanding roller arrangement.

Might not work with two-stroke cylinders with multiple ports though.

Does anyone have any info on this ??

[Muciek]

If only the ring is in contact with the bore, will the cylinder wall need any coating? Cast from high silicon alloy, no coating, best heat transfer yet.

I think that Mercedes have a system for coating alloy cylinders that uses a paste that is forced into/unto the cylinder walls with an expanding roller arrangement.

Might not work with two-stroke cylinders with multiple ports though.

Does anyone have any info on this ??

You talking about ALUSIL? Here is a video of guy doing "reconditioning"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ek5qv8Nmg0

Here are pictures of sleeves from Polish shop that repairs engines with those kind of bores

314808314809314810314811



"The process of regeneration of damaged cylinders is very complicated. The hardest part is to "pull out" crystals of silicon to the top of the sleeve. Thanks to unique technology and machine, Sunnen Sv-10, we restore the factory parameters of the cylinder"

I think probably its possible to buy a raw sleeve like that (for bigger bores) but then we have to press this in so there is still a transfer heat barrier. Buying a appropriate weight piece for casting new cylinder might be impossible I think.

[wobbly]

Peewee as I keep saying all will be revealed in EngMod.
The Boyesesn port size will depend upon the geometry of the ports in the piston, and the STA this generates.
For example in the CPI cylinder I have used to build 400cc road racing bike engines based on RZ350/Banshee the big ports in the
Blaster style pistons and huge Boyesen slots are capable of around 60 CHp/cylinder.
As soon as you try to go higher power than this it would need another floor port as there is no room for bigger piston cutouts or bigger Boyesens.

[kel]

Hello, posted this in another thread. Any help most appreciated. Thanks


Can someone please save me from my ignorance here. I want to change the springs in my 93 RS125 forks. The manual (which shows a different fork setup :facepalm:) says to "remove the spring sheet, then slowly pull out the spring". How is this done with out breaking down the damper rod setup? i.e. The spring does not fit over the top of the damper rod.
The forks have preload and compression adjustments on the fork tops, not sure but I think this not original (the adjusters are anodised blue and gold).

[peewee]

wob i always figured piston windows were best suited for cylinders with no boyesen ports but if theres something to be gained then i could cut in sqaure or rectangle windows. as of now it has a half circle window at the bottom skirt. adding windows doesnt seem to change anything on the STA page, so would i run the sim to see the results of said windows ? and where would i be looking for any changes, CeFF ?

[Flettner]

Frits, may we ask, when Ryger first set out on this new engine design were they focussed on the oil less aspect first and the power gain was a surprise extra?

[wobbly]

Yes , if you are intake limited due to the piston and boyesen effective areas, then adding or subtracting cutouts in the piston
affects power dramatically.
If you cant make the boyesens bigger then simply add the biggest intake cutouts you can.
Then make them smaller and see the result.

[husaberg]

You talking about ALUSIL? Here is a video of guy doing "reconditioning"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ek5qv8Nmg0

Here are pictures of sleeves from Polish shop that repairs engines with those kind of bores

314808314809314810314811



"The process of regeneration of damaged cylinders is very complicated. The hardest part is to "pull out" crystals of silicon to the top of the sleeve. Thanks to unique technology and machine, Sunnen Sv-10, we restore the factory parameters of the cylinder"

I think probably its possible to buy a raw sleeve like that (for bigger bores) but then we have to press this in so there is still a transfer heat barrier. Buying a appropriate weight piece for casting new cylinder might be impossible I think.
Have a look at the squeeze form liners they are still plated though rather than just high silicon content.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130228977&highlight=squeeze+form#post1130228977
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130257136&highlight=squeeze+form#post1130257136

[Flettner]

Have a look at the squeeze form liners they are still plated though rather than just high silicon content.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130228977&highlight=squeeze+form#post1130228977
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130257136&highlight=squeeze+form#post1130257136

Yes but all these cylinders have a piston wearing inside them, mine only has the ring touching, how wear resistant need it be?

[Lightbulb]

Yes but all these cylinders have a piston wearing inside them, mine only has the ring touching, how wear resistant need it be?

So what is going to control the piston temp and dissipate the heat?
Neil L

[wobbly]

The radial expansive gas force on the ring will be exactly the same as a conventional setup whether the piston needs
skirt support or not.
Look at any long term worn cylinder - where is the wear greatest, at the top where the ring is being forced outward onto the bore.
The answer to your question Neil, the bore needs to be exactly the same as a conventional one, unless you somehow delete the rings radial pressure - not
mentioned in any new patent applications so far.

[jasonu]

Hello, posted this in another thread. Any help most appreciated. Thanks

Give Chris Picket a call.

[adegnes]

This thread was born almost seven years ago - still going strong!
I can't think of any other source for 2-stroke info with even close to the amount of knowledge that has been shared here.
Big thanks to all contributors, especially TZ, you've started something truly great!

[peewee]

wobbly i think some windows might be the way to go as im still a bit short on the inlet area. ive went nearly as wide as the side piston cutouts. going up doesnt seem like a good idea as the ring may pop below the inlet roof edge. boyesens can be alittle bigger but that wont gain me much . same thing going lower, i wont gain much and the floor is already pretty thin.

[Muciek]

wobbly i think some windows might be the way to go as im still a bit short on the inlet area. ive went nearly as wide as the side piston cutouts. going up doesnt seem like a good idea as the ring may pop below the inlet roof edge. boyesens can be alittle bigger but that wont gain me much . same thing going lower, i wont gain much and the floor is already pretty thin.

Maybe You should use only top ring, then lower one will not be problem? How much Hp You want to get from this engine. Carb size will not be a problem (too small carb) ?

In other thread which Smitty started up Mike Gayner revealed even better search method than known before (using google to search whole KB) this one search only in this thread.


There's an even better way if you're wanting to search within a particular thread.

For example if you wanted to search for “disc valve” in just the ESE thread, first you need to find the thread URL ID. Go into the ESE thread and grab the following info from the URL bar:

kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554

Now in google, search for: disc valve inurl:kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554

Using inurl: will only return results that have the appended string in the URL, so this search will target only that thread.

You might get just one result followed by text saying irrelevant results were omitted – just click “search with the omitted results included” to get a complete search.

You’re going to want to make your search as specific as possible, and let Google do the ranking.

edit: And just a quick follow up - don't even bother with the site's search. vBulletin search is notoriously useless, let Google do the leg work.

[Flettner]

The radial expansive gas force on the ring will be exactly the same as a conventional setup whether the piston needs
skirt support or not.
Look at any long term worn cylinder - where is the wear greatest, at the top where the ring is being forced outward onto the bore.
The answer to your question Neil, the bore needs to be exactly the same as a conventional one, unless you somehow delete the rings radial pressure - not
mentioned in any new patent applications so far.

Good call, thanks.

[wobbly]

Kel, the usual way to remove the compression rod from the cap is to make a small clamp from two pieces of ally
with a hole drilled thru the centre line.
This holds the rod and you can then undo the locking nut to remove the fork top assy.
Peewee, I would lower the windows and make the middle as wide as the bridge, add a couple of small holes in the
piston bridge for lube as well.

[TZ350]

I can't think of any other source for 2-stroke info with even close to the amount of knowledge that has been shared here.
Big thanks to all contributors, especially TZ, you've started something truly great!

Thanks, its become a great thread alright ... :D ... and I have learn't a lot that has helped me with tuning my two stroke from all the other peoples contributions here.

[peewee]

good idea wob i didnt even think of that but after another look it makes sense. lower it to the floor like this should work good

[tdc211]

104cc 30mm

for you 100/110 water guys
B port % width is a fuzz more than RSA

[peewee]

Maybe You should use only top ring, then lower one will not be problem? How much Hp You want to get from this engine. Carb size will not be a problem (too small carb) ?.

the inlet area is alittle small but the piston windows may help. ill check engmod to confirm however but if i position the windows low and wide, then the crankcase will have two sources to pull mixture through near bdc, as there will be piston windows and boyesen ports. i may even cut the windows alittle lower than the inlet floor so they stay below the floor even after the piston is on its way up but all this remains to be seen as i havent got that far yet. reed block seems a bit undersized but i believe the general consensus is that it self compensates by staying open longer if needed. im not real concearned as i dont feel like cutting it off and welding on a bigger one. carb is 48mm lectron , i dont have money for a bigger one so i guess it will have to do. the exh pipe may be the biggest problem as it appears to be rather long with shallow cone angles but ill sort it out when i get to that point but most likely ill probly need a new pipe if im to see top performance

[wobbly]

Go another step, as inflow from the reeds does not happen till approaching transfer closing.
The more area down low the better, you will have to fudge the geometry in EngMod but it will work well.

[Frits Overmars]

wob, frits, is there any secrets about these small inlet ports ? so far what i did was make them bigger, with no sharp corners anywhere. it probly cant be seen in the photo but i made each corner as large of radius as possible so hopefully the air can follow without much trouble. even the inlet floor leading through the boyesen to the case has a nice radius . the ports may need to be bigger yet but this is as far as i made it tonight. theres a before pic to compare. every corner was sharp as a razorTake care not to weaken the cylinder; the bottom rear part of the sleeve has been known to break off sometimes and the ears for the cylinder studs may break off too.
Remember that during the upstroke most of the fresh mixture has to go under the piston, but during the latter phase of transfer most of it has to flow from the reed upward into the transfer ducts.


vhm racing testing exhaust port flow, 4° piston top vs flat top with radius. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KRwOObWCtA other interesting videos on their channel alsoIn the VHM video the radiused edge piston shows a small blowdown increase: 3,2% more flow at 8° opening; 2,4% increase at 27% opening. Too bad they didn't show the difference in exhaust backflow and transfer flow. I've seen improvements of well over 10% in the closing stages of backflow and in transfer flow.


Frits, may we ask, when Ryger first set out on this new engine design were they focussed on the oil less aspect first and the power gain was a surprise extra?You may, my good man. Ryger had this idea long before we got acquainted so I didn't witness his day-to-day proceedings from day one, but I think the oil-less aspect was his reason to start looking for options and the power gain was a surprise. I experienced it the same way. The oil-less aspect is simple and easy to understand,
but I think I would not have foreseen the incredible power gain either. Even when I learned that it existed, it took some figuring out to find an explanation for it.

EDIT: I don't mean to suggest that the power gain was just luck. Harry Ryger has been working on his brainchild for over ten years. If memory serves, two years ago the power was 56 hp which was not too bad compared to the 54 hp of the Aprilia RSA, but as we now know, that was not the end of it, power-wise.

[Frits Overmars]

Talk about the devil: a couple of weeks ago I pointed Harry Ryger to the kiwibiker-forum and he seems to be impressed; I just found this mail in my in-box, with Harry's request to post it here:
==============================================
<commented></commented>Dear (two-stroke) friends,
<commented> </commented>
Thank you for all the attention you have given the Ryger engine.<commented></commented>
My name is Harry and I have been working on two-strokes for about 45 years now.<commented></commented>
Back in the year 2000 I was convinced that a clean two-stroke would be possible and I started thinking .. five years before the idea was finally there in the middle of the night, April 2005.<commented></commented>
Then it all started… It took me 10 years of development and it was not much of an easy ride.<commented></commented>
Nobody believed at first and there I was.. alone with some bits and pieces building the perfect engine.<commented></commented>
Honestly I didn’t expect it was that good, I knew it was clean but the power was a nice present that came along with it !<commented></commented>
The reason we introduce the Ryger step by step is simple: it is not meant for the big guys but for everybody.<commented></commented>
Upgrading a conventional two stroke must be available to everyone before it is to late because of inescapable new emission regulations.<commented></commented>
<commented> </commented>
A few things to think about :<commented> </commented>
30.000 rpm ? easy….. it could do a lot more. How ? don’t let the piston touch the rings !<commented></commented>
Port timing ? …not important !
Crankcase volume ? not important !
<commented> </commented>
At last a big thank you to my dear friends Frits, Luc, Thijs and the lot from the Ryger team !<commented></commented>
<commented> </commented>
P.S. now and then I answer some questions but within my limitations, on my facebook via pm…Mcd Twist Ryger Engine.<commented> </commented>
<commented> </commented>
Kind regards<commented> </commented>
Harry Ryger
=================================================

[husaberg]

Talk about the devil: a couple of weeks ago I pointed Harry Ryger to the kiwibiker-forum and he seems to be impressed; I just found this mail in my in-box, which I post here in its entirety (if the Dutch part is too Dutch for you, try http://translate.google.com).
============================================
Hallo Frits hoe gaat het ?

ik heb even een kort introductieverhaaltje gemaakt voor het kiwi-forum, wat vind je ervan ? Als je het leuk vind plaats ik het. je kunt ook rustig een beetje editen hoor.
Groeten van harry
--------------------------------------------------------
<commented></commented>Dear (two-stroke) friends,
<commented> </commented>
Thank you for all the attention you have given the Ryger engine.<commented></commented>
My name is Harry and I have been working on two-strokes for about 45 years now.<commented></commented>
Back in the year 2000 I was convinced that a clean two-stroke would be possible and I started thinking .. five years before the idea was finally there in the middle of the night, April 2005.<commented></commented>
Then it all started… It took me 10 years of development and it was not much of an easy ride.<commented></commented>
Nobody believed at first and there I was.. alone with some bits and pieces building the perfect engine.<commented></commented>
Honestly I didn’t expect it was that good, I knew it was clean but the power was a nice present that came along with it !<commented></commented>
The reason we introduce the Ryger step by step is simple: it is not meant for the big guys but for everybody.<commented></commented>
Upgrading a conventional two stroke must be available to everyone before it is to late because of inescapable new emission regulations.<commented></commented>
<commented> </commented>
A few things to think about :<commented> </commented>
30.000 rpm ? easy….. it could do a lot more. How ? don’t let the piston touch the rings !<commented></commented>
Port timing ? …not important !
Crankcase volume ? not important !
<commented> </commented>
At last a big thank you to my dear friends Frits, Luc, Thijs and the lot from the Ryger team !<commented></commented>
<commented> </commented>
P.S. now and then I answer some questions but within my limitations, on my facebook via pm…Mcd Twist Ryger Engine.<commented> </commented>
<commented> </commented>
Kind regards<commented> </commented>
Harry Ryger
=================================================
Chairs Frits.
Don't let the piston touch the rings............................
I was thinking on the ring seals are in the Sleeve....... but no that would still touch?
Back to attempts at thinking
Unless of course there was plenty of oil in between.

[gamma500]

In the VHM video the radiused edge piston shows a small blowdown increase: 3,2% more flow at 8° opening; 2,4% increase at 27% opening. Too bad they didn't show the difference in exhaust backflow and transfer flow. I've seen improvements of well over 10% in the closing stages of backflow and in transfer flow.


I was thinking that it might do that also! no free lunch...

I'm waiting eagerly for more ryger pics :soon:

[adegnes]

Talk about the devil: a couple of weeks ago I pointed Harry Ryger to the kiwibiker-forum and he seems to be impressed; I just found this mail in my in-box, which I post here in its entirety:
==============================================
...30.000 rpm ? easy….. it could do a lot more. How ? don’t let the piston touch the rings !<commented></commented>
Port timing ? …not important !
Crankcase volume ? not important !....


The plot thickens...

[jasonu]

104cc 30mm

for you 100/110 water guys
B port % width is a fuzz more than RSA

What cylinder is this?

[tdc211]

What cylinder is this?

redone KTM.

[jasonu]

redone KTM.

it would be nice to use but unfortunately not legal in the NZ F4 class.

[tdc211]

it would be nice to use but unfortunately not legal in the NZ F4 class.

well, as is , its terrible.

its a older design they have not upgraded.

so all the inner outer transfer walls are mostly epoxy and the porting lays out nice
of coarse added in good roof angles. Really nothing different than what is done here.
plus countless hrs in eng mod.

[Peter1962]

Talk about the devil: a couple of weeks ago I pointed Harry Ryger to the kiwibiker-forum and he seems to be impressed; I just found this mail in my in-box, which I post here in its entirety:
==============================================
<commented></commented>Dear (two-stroke) friends,
<commented> </commented>
Thank you for all the attention you have given the Ryger engine.<commented></commented>
My name is Harry and I have been working on two-strokes for about 45 years now.<commented></commented>
Back in the year 2000 I was convinced that a clean two-stroke would be possible and I started thinking .. five years before the idea was finally there in the middle of the night, April 2005.<commented></commented>
Then it all started… It took me 10 years of development and it was not much of an easy ride.<commented></commented>
Nobody believed at first and there I was.. alone with some bits and pieces building the perfect engine.<commented></commented>
Honestly I didn’t expect it was that good, I knew it was clean but the power was a nice present that came along with it !<commented></commented>
The reason we introduce the Ryger step by step is simple: it is not meant for the big guys but for everybody.<commented></commented>
Upgrading a conventional two stroke must be available to everyone before it is to late because of inescapable new emission regulations.<commented></commented>
<commented> </commented>
A few things to think about :<commented> </commented>
30.000 rpm ? easy….. it could do a lot more. How ? don’t let the piston touch the rings !<commented></commented>
Port timing ? …not important !
Crankcase volume ? not important !
<commented> </commented>
At last a big thank you to my dear friends Frits, Luc, Thijs and the lot from the Ryger team !<commented></commented>
<commented> </commented>
P.S. now and then I answer some questions but within my limitations, on my facebook via pm…Mcd Twist Ryger Engine.<commented> </commented>
<commented> </commented>
Kind regards<commented> </commented>
Harry Ryger
=================================================

"port timing ? ... not important ! " :eek5:

I am flabbergasted...

[Grumph]

Talk about the devil: a couple of weeks ago I pointed Harry Ryger to the kiwibiker-forum and he seems to be impressed; I just found this mail in my in-box, which I post here in its entirety:

What, no birthday greetings ?

Happy birthday Frits, and thanks for all the information and assistance.

[richban]

We flew the the 2 stroke flag quite well on Sunday. An NSR300 won every race we entered. I got 1 win. Other Richard got 1 and Glen got 2. The bikes went really well. Small crash for me and a big one for other Richard. Lots of talk in the pits about the performance of the bikes. I am sure we will see more on the grid soon. They just keep getting better the more we learn.

The Ignitech quick shifters work perfectly for all.

[breezy]

Chairs Frits.
Don't let the piston touch the rings............................
I was thinking on the ring seals are in the Sleeve....... but no that would still touch?
Back to attempts at thinking
Unless of course there was plenty of oil in between.

like an expanding and contracting scenario? when required, i checked the squish on my project engine a few days back, i left the rings off the piston, it turned over fairly easily. but i never really noticed till i fitted the rings and wound the crank over... the friction from the rings is very noticable..314904

[Muciek]

May I ask how in the hell You want to run this when stock cylinder with expansion chamber is killing gearbox all the time?

[kel]

its a older design they have not upgraded.

so all the inner outer transfer walls are mostly epoxy and the porting lays out nice
of coarse added in good roof angles.

if you are happy to share, please post pictures of your cylinder work.
I have bought an aftermarket 50mm bore Derbi cylinder kit, I'm shocked at how much porting work it requires. This cylinder will also require epoxy to both inner and outer transfer ducts.

[Flettner]

Talk about the devil: a couple of weeks ago I pointed Harry Ryger to the kiwibiker-forum and he seems to be impressed; I just found this mail in my in-box, which I post here in its entirety:
==============================================
<commented></commented>Dear (two-stroke) friends,
<commented> </commented>
Thank you for all the attention you have given the Ryger engine.<commented></commented>
My name is Harry and I have been working on two-strokes for about 45 years now.<commented></commented>
Back in the year 2000 I was convinced that a clean two-stroke would be possible and I started thinking .. five years before the idea was finally there in the middle of the night, April 2005.<commented></commented>
Then it all started… It took me 10 years of development and it was not much of an easy ride.<commented></commented>
Nobody believed at first and there I was.. alone with some bits and pieces building the perfect engine.<commented></commented>
Honestly I didn’t expect it was that good, I knew it was clean but the power was a nice present that came along with it !<commented></commented>
The reason we introduce the Ryger step by step is simple: it is not meant for the big guys but for everybody.<commented></commented>
Upgrading a conventional two stroke must be available to everyone before it is to late because of inescapable new emission regulations.<commented></commented>
<commented> </commented>
A few things to think about :<commented> </commented>
30.000 rpm ? easy….. it could do a lot more. How ? don’t let the piston touch the rings !<commented></commented>
Port timing ? …not important !
Crankcase volume ? not important !
<commented> </commented>
At last a big thank you to my dear friends Frits, Luc, Thijs and the lot from the Ryger team !<commented></commented>
<commented> </commented>
P.S. now and then I answer some questions but within my limitations, on my facebook via pm…Mcd Twist Ryger Engine.<commented> </commented>
<commented> </commented>
Kind regards<commented> </commented>
Harry Ryger
=================================================

One way to have the rings not touch the piston is, leave them in the box they came in, as in no rings.
What witch craft is in this ryger
Harry we would like questions answered with no limitations, we won't tell any one, truely.
So were does this leave us, more questions than anwers as per ususal.
Talk about the Devil indeed.

[TZ350]

Talk about the devil: a couple of weeks ago I pointed Harry Ryger to the kiwibiker-forum and he seems to be impressed; I just found this mail in my in-box, which I post here in its entirety:
==============================================
<commented></commented>Dear (two-stroke) friends,Upgrading a conventional two stroke must be available to everyone before it is to late because of inescapable new emission regulations. Harry Ryger
=================================================

Upgrading a conventional two stroke, well as soon as I know enough about the Ryger engine to be able to do so I intend making one.

I have already collected a few Suzuki TS/TF125 engines for the purpose, incidentally for all those Bucket guys who bemoan the shortage of good 2T engines, they are still making the TF and TS new.

I figure the TS/TF engine will be more suitable for the conversion than the rotary valve engine I now use.

[kel]

Hello 2 stroke tuners,
I have purchased an aftermarket Derbi cylinder kit. One of many things I'm not happy about with this cylinder is the three rear boost port setup. This design gives away far too much time angle area. As I require more transfer time angle area I'm thinking of -
1. Reducing the upwards angle of the two outer ports and changing the direction of flow so the transfer streams from these ports collide into each other. If this does not work it would be easy to correct ports back to original by filling with epoxy.
OR
2. Grinding out the divider between these ports and the B port thus creating very large B ports which have more traditional directional control of streams i.e. directed across the cylinder to collide into each other and with the hook in the back edge of the port to clear out residual combustion gas. I would appropriately match the duct entry and exit areas. Unlike option 1 I could not use epoxy to return ports to original once done.

So does anyone have experience with this? Is option 1. the one to try first? Would the option 2 B ports being much larger than A ports be a mistake?
Your experience and thoughts would be much appreciated.

[Flettner]

Upgrading a conventional two stroke, well as soon as I know enough about the Ryger engine to be able to do so I intend making one.

I have already collected a few Suzuki TS/TF125 engines for the purpose, incidentally for all those Bucket guys who bemoan the shortage of good 2T engines, they are still making the TF and TS new.

I figure the TS/TF engine will be more suitable for the conversion than the rotary valve engine I now use.

You are not the only one, I've got a few 700 twins I would like to run oil less (make running on gas a real option) and it would be good to derail the fourstroke only mentality in microlights we see these days.
But in the mean time I'll still hammer away at my own little oil less prototype.

[gravmax88]

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC8QFjAAahUKEwj7ls7XqbHHAhXDIKYKHYKWCRA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.burckhardtcompression.com%2Fc ontent-n16-sE.html&ei=mXXSVbvmNsPBmAWCraaAAQ&usg=AFQjCNGBgrqb8i6OeLC61eP6GmscpIkL_w&sig2=9trRMUNtYQLmMZ-JcVqGRA&bvm=bv.99804247,d.dGY

:drool:

[tdc211]

Hello 2 stroke tuners,
I have purchased an aftermarket Derbi cylinder kit. One of many things I'm not happy about with this cylinder is the three rear boost port setup. This design gives away far too much time angle area. As I require more transfer time angle area I'm thinking of -
1. Reducing the upwards angle of the two outer ports and changing the direction of flow so the transfer streams from these ports collide into each other. If this does not work it would be easy to correct ports back to original by filling with epoxy.
OR
2. Grinding out the divider between these ports and the B port thus creating very large B ports which have more traditional directional control of streams i.e. directed across the cylinder to collide into each other and with the hook in the back edge of the port to clear out residual combustion gas. I would appropriately match the duct entry and exit areas. Unlike option 1 I could not use epoxy to return ports to original once done.

So does anyone have experience with this? Is option 1. the one to try first? Would the option 2 B ports being much larger than A ports be a mistake?
Your experience and thoughts would be much appreciated.


My B port is about the size and description of your option 2. and my port entrance into the bottom of the cylinder, is smaller than the exit into the cylinder. But not with a flat divider wall like the rsa.
and with the inner/outer radius, roof angle and entrance smaller than exit, that's what worked on the dyno. So that's about all I can say.

I will find some pics and post them

[husaberg]

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC8QFjAAahUKEwj7ls7XqbHHAhXDIKYKHYKWCRA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.burckhardtcompression.com%2Fc ontent-n16-sE.html&ei=mXXSVbvmNsPBmAWCraaAAQ&usg=AFQjCNGBgrqb8i6OeLC61eP6GmscpIkL_w&sig2=9trRMUNtYQLmMZ-JcVqGRA&bvm=bv.99804247,d.dGY

:drool:

http://modelenginenews.org/ed.2013.01.html

[peewee]

kels i had a similar idea not long ago. if youve seen my cylinder in the last few pages you notice quit a bit of dead space between C and D. plenty enough dead space for two more ports. instead of making them 50-60 * , i was going to have them enter the cylinder at 15* like the C ports. the main reason i never gave it much more thought is because these new ports wouldnt actually have their own duct per say but rather just a short 10mm tunell from the reed cavity into the cylinder. it was for this reason that i didnt think they would act like a normal side trasfer port and there for i figured it might be better to bring C around as far as i can and then widen D. you situation is alittle different but somewhat the same i think, as it sounds like you want to make the outer rear ports enter at a fairly flat angle. sorry i cant say how it would do as i decided not to even try it

[ken seeber]

FIRST RYGER COMPETITOR JUST APPLIES FOR CIK HOMOLOGATION

Sorry Harry, but life isn't going to be that easy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:clap:

314910

[Flettner]

Theory - The ring is retained in the bore instead of on the piston. The piston skirt is long enough such that part of it is always touching the ring, and the piston is nikasil plated. Could explain the need for the big spacer between cylinder and crankcase.

I can't quite work out if this is actually possible without the ring intersecting ports.

Edit: Obviously can be achieved without intersecting ports, but would have to be below all ports. It is not going to do any sort of sealing work down there so that would be stupid. I don't think this theory works.

What if :shifty: this wasn't such a silly idea, ring in the cylinder wall just above the exhaust port, with the piston moving in and out of it. If the ring was secured in such a way that it only just touched the piston (piston has a small radius on top) and sealed when gas pressure is applied. No more ring flutter even up to 30000, piston with some sort of wear resistance coating. You could possibly run two rings one on top of the other with the gaps 180 degrees apart. Under the ring there is no need for bridges at all just large holes. Remember the piston is guided so it does not touch the bore.

Now we are getting under the influence, what if , Lets say the transfers do have one way reeds (magic ones that can handle heat and pressure) , could the transfers be indeed above the exhaust as Husa suggested, expansion down to large low exhaust annular cavity ( no bridges just a large cut away all around the bore connected to the exhaust outlet), So transfer has now taken place up into the upper part of the cylinder and if pressures are right can keep transfering untill the piston shuts these ports off. If the exhaust pressure was kept high leakage from the upper part of the cylinder into the lower exhaust annular cavity would be minimal???
Another bed time story

[chrisc]

"Don't let the piston touch the rings"

The bore rings described above assumes the piston touches them which we're told they don't :sweatdrop

[Flettner]

"Don't let the piston touch the rings"

The bore rings described above assumes the piston touches them which we're told they don't :sweatdrop

Yes but only sometimes, not like normal ring contact. I think things are being described to us in riddles a bit.

[Frits Overmars]

FIRST RYGER COMPETITOR JUST APPLIES FOR CIK HOMOLOGATION
Sorry Harry, but life isn't going to be that easy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:clap:
314910Ken, you might like to know that you gave Harry a good scare! For some reason, although he is logged in, he can't see the pictures here. So he could not see the way you were pulling his leg; all he saw was your disturbing text about another competitor.
Mental Trousers, are you there? I promised Harry to bring his problem to your attention. He logs in which seems to work because he gets the message "welcome Ryger" or words to that effect, but he cannot see any pictures and he cannot post anything. The two-stroke world is depending on you, Shane!

[Askor]

What if :shifty: this wasn't such a silly idea, ring in the cylinder wall just above the exhaust port, with the piston moving in and out of it.
If the rings were in the cylinder like that, surely something would seize unless the piston was coated in nikasil or similar. But as we're told the rings don't touch the piston at all..

[husaberg]

Oil, gas, Lab seal. f'ed if I know.
.......................


Ken, you might like to know that you gave Harry a good scare! For some reason, although he is logged in, he can't see the pictures here. So he could not see the way you were pulling his leg; all he saw was your disturbing text about another competitor.
Mental Trousers, are you there? I promised Harry to bring his problem to your attention. He logs in which seems to work because he gets the message "welcome Ryger" or words to that effect, but he cannot see any pictures and he cannot write anything. The two-stroke work is depending on you, Shane!

I pm'ed him Frits

[Frits Overmars]

What, no birthday greetings ? Happy birthday Frits, and thanks for all the information and assistance.Thanks Grumph. My own fault really because I tend to hush those birthdays up. And my pleasure re the info etc.


I have purchased an aftermarket Derbi cylinder kit. One of many things I'm not happy about with this cylinder is the three rear boost port setup... I'm thinking of ...grinding out the divider between these ports and the B port thus creating very large B ports.. Kel, before you do that, take a look at the calculation of the elliptical port shape, necessary to keep the piston ring alive, that I posted here somewhere.
Your very large B-ports will require very generous corner radii and there may not be sufficient material to realize that.

[Flettner]

If the rings were in the cylinder like that, surely something would seize unless the piston was coated in nikasil or similar. But as we're told the rings don't touch the piston at all..

Fuel is an oil, a real thin oil but it will lube a ring. Look at a fourstroke the compression ring runs dry, apparently. With this system the ring will indeed not touch the piston for half the stroke. Imagine, no ring flutter, what rev's would you like sir?
And there are plenty of coatings out there now that would do the job I would think.

[chrisc]

Ken, you might like to know that you gave Harry a good scare! For some reason, although he is logged in, he can't see the pictures here. So he could not see the way you were pulling his leg; all he saw was your disturbing text about another competitor.
Mental Trousers, are you there? I promised Harry to bring his problem to your attention. He logs in which seems to work because he gets the message "welcome Ryger" or words to that effect, but he cannot see any pictures and he cannot write anything. The two-stroke work is depending on you, Shane!

Has Harry clicked the link that gets sent to the email address he registered with? It might be a confirmation issue.

Hi Harry, good to have another world class tuner join such a worthy thread. We're all looking forward to hearing about your engine!

[seattle smitty]

This may be an internet question more than anything. From curiosity, I Googled the PVP superkart site and got their web address, but with the warning, "This site may be hacked." So I declined to go there, but does anyone know about this, either specifically or generally?

As a long-ago outboard racer from the States, I am ignorant of many of the names that I assume most of you know well. In particular, I had not heard of Mr. Ryger before all the speculation about his breakthrough engine began here. Would one of you, or perhaps Mr. Ryger himself, tell the clueless few (me) something of where he comes from in this game, a little background, nationality, etc., since the man seems to be on the verge of becoming one of the legendary figures in 2-stroke history?

[Tim Ey]

Hello 2 stroke tuners,
I have purchased an aftermarket Derbi cylinder kit. One of many things I'm not happy about with this cylinder is the three rear boost port setup.

If this is a Malossi MHR Cylinder have a close look at the outer Boostports. And at the B Ports.
The Malossi Cylinder I know has a B-Port without a Kicker (because the studs are right where the kicker would be on a modern cylinder). The outer boostport is doing the kicker-work.

So I would go on Option C: leave it as it came frome the Box ;-) Perhaps make the liner between the ports a bit shallower but nothing more.

[breezy]

May I ask how in the hell You want to run this when stock cylinder with expansion chamber is killing gearbox all the time?

hi there, well yes thats right they are plagued with gearbox problems once the power goes up.. but i started this some time ago and needed to at least get it to fire up. i will see if i can get it to fit the frame , another problem, as is the fact its not allowed in this format to get points racing anyway. i only tried this as a" guide " to producing a water cooled barrel( from existing bantam cast barrel as the rules allow), i have also got together some cvt parts to alleviate the gearbox issues ( which i think is also not allowed for racing, cvt) . but its kept me in the garage and out the pub......:crazy:

[mr bucketracer]

If this is a Malossi MHR Cylinder have a close look at the outer Boostports. And at the B Ports.
The Malossi Cylinder I know has a B-Port without a Kicker (because the studs are right where the kicker would be on a modern cylinder). The outer boostport is doing the kicker-work.

So I would go on Option C: leave it as it came frome the Box ;-) Perhaps make the liner between the ports a bit shallower but nothing more.looks like this one https://www.google.com/search?q=Malossi+MHR+Cylinder&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CCQQsARqFQoTCMvO14m3s8cCFUQipgodVjcJmQ&biw=1280&bih=637#imgrc=eVkRWZoDu09ITM%3A

[lodgernz]

What if :shifty: this wasn't such a silly idea, ring in the cylinder wall just above the exhaust port, with the piston moving in and out of it. If the ring was secured in such a way that it only just touched the piston (piston has a small radius on top) and sealed when gas pressure is applied. No more ring flutter even up to 30000, piston with some sort of wear resistance coating. You could possibly run two rings one on top of the other with the gaps 180 degrees apart. Under the ring there is no need for bridges at all just large holes. Remember the piston is guided so it does not touch the bore.

I'm struggling to see how a piston moving through a ring fixed to the bore is any different from a piston with no ring in a cylinder with no ring, as in model engines.
As I understand it, rings on a conventional piston force outwards on the bore, providing a seal that the piston alone is incapable of providing, given tolerances to allow for expansion differences etc. etc..
It seems to me that a ring sitting in the bore would similarly need to be forced inwards on to the piston to provide the equivalent seal.
I can't see how this is possible without the piston crashing into the ring as it returns to the ring which has sprung inwards while the piston was elsewhere.
And then there is Harry's suggestion/hint/teaser that the piston doesn't touch the ring(s) anyway...

[kel]

If this is a Malossi MHR Cylinder have a close look at the outer Boostports. And at the B Ports.
The Malossi Cylinder I know has a B-Port without a Kicker (because the studs are right where the kicker would be on a modern cylinder). The outer boostport is doing the kicker-work.

No not a Maloosi, and no the 3 x C port (boost ports) are not doing the job of clearing out spent combustion gas under the incoming charge. The C ports are all angled very steeply up to the head. This cylinder has B ports with the hook to do this job.


So I would go on Option C: leave it as it came frome the Box ;-) Perhaps make the liner between the ports a bit shallower but nothing more.

No I couldn't do that. There is so much opportunity for performance gain with these cylinders.



looks like this one https://www.google.com/search?q=Malossi+MHR+Cylinder&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CCQQsARqFQoTCMvO14m3s8cCFUQipgodVjcJmQ&biw=1280&bih=637#imgrc=eVkRWZoDu09ITM%3A

Maybe I should have just spent the extra money :cry:
Looks like the Malossi MHR II team is as per my option 1. Can anyone tell me what angle those ports are angled up at?

[wobbly]

Kel, I would grind the divider between the B/C ports so that all it does is support the ring,ie only a short bridge with a radius on the front ( inner face )
with both walls perpendicular to the bore C L.
Maybe the rear wall of the B port can be filled to make it perp, if it has a hook now, but I cant see what happens on the front wall of the C port at all,so
maybe you can leave the divider in ,just make both walls perp to the bore CL.
Then flatten the D roof and put the rear wall hook into that.

[Flettner]

I'm struggling to see how a piston moving through a ring fixed to the bore is any different from a piston with no ring in a cylinder with no ring, as in model engines.
As I understand it, rings on a conventional piston force outwards on the bore, providing a seal that the piston alone is incapable of providing, given tolerances to allow for expansion differences etc. etc..
It seems to me that a ring sitting in the bore would similarly need to be forced inwards on to the piston to provide the equivalent seal.
I can't see how this is possible without the piston crashing into the ring as it returns to the ring which has sprung inwards while the piston was elsewhere.
And then there is Harry's suggestion/hint/teaser that the piston doesn't touch the ring(s) anyway...

The ring is stationary, no inertia no matter what speed. Gas pressure would still be able to squeeze the ring in, like normal just the other way round, could even be small holes from combustion chamber to the back of the ring? Maybe. Ring would have to be well supported so it can only move in "a knats cock" smaller than the piston when the piston is not there. Could it be any worse than in our normal engines with the ring bulging out of its groove every time it passes the exhaust port. Twice every cycle the ring has to be shoved back into it's groove by a small champher in the exhaust port, the ring in the side of the cylinder wall would have to move less than that. Latest ring technology has it that there is not much spring pressure (movement) in the ring when its loose on the piston, out of the cylinder. I know it sounds crazy but what else?
If the rings never touch the piston, then they are not piston rings:msn-wink:

[wobbly]

So now you are going to put Nicasil on the piston skirt to take the sealing load of the gas compressed ring.

[husaberg]

I can remember the actual figure, but engine friction rises at a cube or square to engine speed.
Inertia increases at a square of rpm
So something slippery is at foot.
I think we need to get our lab coats on.

Al-Si-graphite particle composite piston
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0043164880902598
9% less friction...........
CRC Handbook of Lubrication and Tribology, Volume III: Monitoring ..., Volume 3 pg 165
10% HP increase in passanger an racin car engines
Scuffing resistance increase by a factor of two.
Tested and used in F1

Rods
50% lighter than steel 25%lighter than Ti no bearing.
http://www.mxcomposites.com/faq.php

[Flettner]

So now you are going to put Nicasil on the piston skirt to take the sealing load of the gas compressed ring.

Yes or something better:bleh:
It's just the same but the other way round

[TZ350]

314930314931314932

What is this head ... could it be a variable compression head????? Help Please.

[jonny quest]

Polini made that. It lowers compression as cylinder pressure goes up. Yzr500 had that for one or two years.

I'd like to buy one of these Polini heads if anyone knows of one for sale. Preferably cr125 model

[husaberg]

Polini made that. It lowers compression as cylinder pressure goes up. Yzr500 had that for one or two years.

I'd like to buy one of these Polini heads if anyone knows of one for sale. Preferably cr125 model
Gee that was hard
http://www.ebay.it/itm/111695470713


314930314931314932

What is this head ... could it be a variable compression head????? Help Please.


Oh Frits But i would not have been so concise or eloquent though.
The Aprilia was still fairly high. I think either you or Jan wrote is was always generally 16:1 or similar is that right?
Did this vary say higher tight tracks lower open tracks, or was the comp just optimised for the best hp/acceration/over rev compromise at the circuit.

I remember the Poloni power head From Robinsons book did anyone ever use it in competition

Is there anything in the other bits i observed or have i drifted off on a tangent?


The compression ratio was always between 15.5 and 16, optimized on the test bench. No adaption to weather, tracks etc. At least not officially; what individual mechanics got up to, was beyond control. But such actions certainly were not recommended.

Not at Aprilia. I seem to remember that Team Roberts once tried variable comp heads on the factory Yamaha 500s, but the name Poloni does not ring a bell.


I spelt it wrong too i guess "Polini" powerhead

http://www.kpmotosolutions.com/img041.jpg

pretty sure the year Wayne Rainey was injured they were using it then.

[chrisc]

Edit: damn you husa!

http://www.kpmotosolutions.com/img041.jpg

[Mental Trousers]

Ken, you might like to know that you gave Harry a good scare! For some reason, although he is logged in, he can't see the pictures here. So he could not see the way you were pulling his leg; all he saw was your disturbing text about another competitor.
Mental Trousers, are you there? I promised Harry to bring his problem to your attention. He logs in which seems to work because he gets the message "welcome Ryger" or words to that effect, but he cannot see any pictures and he cannot post anything. The two-stroke world is depending on you, Shane!

Tell him to clear out the cookies in his browser and try again.

What's his login name?

[husaberg]

Tell him to clear out the cookies in his browser and try again.

What's his login name?
I am picking its Ryger
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/member.php/48608-ryger

[crbbt]

The compression ratio was always between 15.5 and 16, optimized on the test bench. No adaption to weather, tracks etc. At least not officially; what individual mechanics got up to, was beyond control. But such actions certainly were not recommended.


are these compression ratios for unleaded?

what was the range for leaded on the dyno?

[Frits Overmars]

are these compression ratios for unleaded? what was the range for leaded on the dyno?Unleaded has been compulsory in GP-racing for decades.

[Frits Overmars]

Tell him to clear out the cookies in his browser and try again.Will do, thanks.


What's his login name?I suppose it's Ryger, like Husa suggested.

[JanBros]

couldn't sleep last night so the Ryger popped up in my head again.

so let's presume it has a rod that goes only up and down, has no piston rings and can be put on any excisting botom-end.
mixture probably does not go through the crankcase, but even if it did, as it is very clean obvious no oil is burnt in the process so no oil in the mixture.
how the hell do you lubricate a crank spinning at 30.000rpm's ?
I supose one could use sealed bearrings for the crank itself, but that still leaves the big-end bearring and whatever bearrings nescesary for the conversion of rotating into up/down movement.

anybody idea's how to solve this ?

[F5 Dave]

looks like this one https://www.google.com/search?q=Malossi+MHR+Cylinder&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CCQQsARqFQoTCMvO14m3s8cCFUQipgodVjcJmQ&biw=1280&bih=637#imgrc=eVkRWZoDu09ITM%3A
What does MHR stand for?:Oops:

[sonic_v]

What does MHR stand for?:Oops:

Malossi Hyper Racing

[breezy]

[QUOTE=chrisc;1130892655]"Don't let the piston touch the rings"


didnt the message say if you wanted to go " above 30.000 rpm dont let the piston touch the rings" ...
seems to me their is some piston to ring contact at the 30,000 rpm quoted.


inside out piston rings recessed into the cylinder sleeve and pressure placed on them from behind through small bleed holes just like wobbly explained about a piston mod. maybe the bleed holes come from a link to holes above the rings and the pressure forcing them out from the fuel being compressed as the piston moves up the bore. only when the returning wave from the exhaust has stuffed back fuel from the exhaust port would you need a good seal around the piston as with the conventional 2 stroke. maybe the piston has a small taper at the fop to ease the piston through the ring.

[Frits Overmars]

Tell him to clear out the cookies in his browser and try again. What's his login name?He did, tried again, and got this reaction:
ryger, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.


Log Out (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/login.php?do=logout&logouthash=1439988600-206aec0323685015cd65bfa21a4aadbc74a53040) Home (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/forum.php)

[Mental Trousers]

Tell him to clear out the cookies in his browser and try again. What's his login name?He did, tried again, and got this reaction:
ryger, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.


Log Out (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/login.php?do=logout&logouthash=1439988600-206aec0323685015cd65bfa21a4aadbc74a53040) Home (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/forum.php)



Bumped him up to a different user group. Try again.

[wobbly]

In the days of ELF 124 leaded race gas the norm was 19:1 com ratio.
The MITS unleaded race gas used after lead was banned isnt your "normal" fuel at all, needing rubber gloves
and a respirator to mix and pour into the tank, so much for the "green" approach.
But as Frits says this stuff is good for mid 15 coms.
Your average LL100 avgas is good for 16 as long as attention is payed to chamber and plug cooling.

[Flettner]

couldn't sleep last night so the Ryger popped up in my head again.

so let's presume it has a rod that goes only up and down, has no piston rings and can be put on any excisting botom-end.
mixture probably does not go through the crankcase, but even if it did, as it is very clean obvious no oil is burnt in the process so no oil in the mixture.
how the hell do you lubricate a crank spinning at 30.000rpm's ?
I supose one could use sealed bearrings for the crank itself, but that still leaves the big-end bearring and whatever bearrings nescesary for the conversion of rotating into up/down movement.

anybody idea's how to solve this ?

Connecting rod connects to the "large valve guide" mounted in the plate. This seals off bottom from top. Bottom is now free to have it's case machined out to accept gearbox oil, splash feed. 30,000 rpm with a standard rod? not so sure about that.

[lodgernz]

Connecting rod connects to the "large valve guide" mounted in the plate. This seals off bottom from top. Bottom is now free to have it's case machined out to accept gearbox oil, splash feed. 30,000 rpm with a standard rod? not so sure about that.

Could be dry or wet sump with oil pump like foul strokes. Great. That means 2-strokes will be able to dump oil all over the race track too.

[Frits Overmars]

Could be dry or wet sump with oil pump like foul strokes. Great. That means 2-strokes will be able to dump oil all over the race track too.Nothing new there. If a foul-stroke dumps its oil, it's usually caused by a con rod taking a look at the outside world.
If a two-stroke con rod snaps, it often penetrates the gearbox, with the same result.

[Grumph]

Nothing new there. If a foul-stroke dumps its oil, it's usually caused by a con rod taking a look at the outside world.
If a two-stroke con rod snaps, it often penetrates the gearbox, with the same result.

Or as Breezy will probably confirm, get too much HP out of a 50's 2 stroke and you exceed the design limits of the gearbox which can do the same thing...

I had a Villiers 3 speed box split the case through the layshaft bearings. Messy - and I had to pick up all the pieces personally.

[ken seeber]

Ken, you might like to know that you gave Harry a good scare! For some reason, although he is logged in, he can't see the pictures here. So he could not see the way you were pulling his leg; all he saw was your disturbing text about another competitor.


Frits, please tell Harry that no scare was intended and to keep up the good work. Just thought he’d be impressed with our port count.

OK fellers, as a spin off from the Random Ryger Research, I did a spreadsheet to understand the possible benefits of dampening the piston inertia as I thought it might be useful to visualize the changes with inputs of: piston mass, piston diameter, stroke, rod length and RPM. Gas forces are based on an SAE paper by QUB that studied a Honda RS125. No allowances for friction etc have been included. Well above my head.

Consider it to be an alpha version, so it might be out be factors of 2, 10 or 100, have a plus instead of a minus etc. However, despite this, it is interesting to observe the forces change as one changes the variables.

As I seemingly couldn't paste it into KB, I have put it into dropbox, as below:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/15d6shlkqr761bw/Piston%20Force%2C%20Vel%20and%20Accel%20Locked%202 00815.xlsx?dl=0

[husaberg]

How to search within ESE thread of KB in general


Seriously consider the search words choosen
Also if you know who posted it it will be far far easier.
Click on it three times.
If you don't the kitten dies.
http://img.imggrid.com/thumbnail/th?id=JN.ZiAgrxo9ZrU2Z%252FIQx29gIw

[Flettner]

This was written by Luc F on another forum. Quote;

The goal is not that 30.000rpm, because the max power is between 17-18k.
But the princple can go far more than 30k that is a typical Ryger property, which is completely different with the current 2t principle we already used for more than 100 years. So today 2stroke laws you can forget for a very big part, with the Ryger engine it starts all over again.
The mechanical construction determine what is the maximum possible. So see that 30k more as a test that the engine can handle it.


"Mechanical construction" Guided piston, ringless piston, dampened piston?
Still uses piston, cylinder, petrol, ignition system, carburetor, ports, cylinderhead, much is still the same.
I think the two key areas are the ring (or at least sealing the combustion ) and the guided piston sealing bottom end from top end.
And I'm of the opinion that the trasnfers are high up in the cylinder, higher than normal.
I would imagine 30,000 RPM was what was seen for a split second before it's internals became externals.

[adegnes]

Eleven late opening smallish (for high velocity) transfers are delivering the mixture under extreme pressure from the very high primary compression, forcing the spent gases out. The high primary compression does the needed cushioning. The pipe is no longer the one swinging the bat.

Man I just can't think outside the box...

[Lightbulb]

I am thinking that the transfers will actually be very low and I think that the exhaust is also lower than normal, possibly around 170 deg or even as low as 150 deg and would think the transfers will be around the 110 to 120 deg mark possibly even down to 90 deg duration if the pressure is high enough in the transfer system. It would be depending on the preset pressure of the reeds to activate.
There is also the possibility of it using a combination of spark ignition and the newer HCCI system after the heat in the system allows the HCCI to work.
That way, there is no problem with getting the ignition to keep up with the higher rpm as it becomes compression ignition.
It is my opinion that the very high compression will allow an otherwise too lean a fuel load to be ignited. That would account for the low emissions when tested.
Neil

[wobbly]

Frits posted a comment from Harry on here that you all should have seen.
In that he stated that the engine had been tested to 30,000 rpm BUT IT WOULD DO MORE.
So why the negativity about the "crank " mechanism only lasting seconds before self destruction.
Thinking outside the box isnt the issue - this is a whole new shape.

[peewee]

frits i remember reading something about a 2t engine that was tested and power started to go down after 150f water temp if i recall the story correctly. although i dont remember to what temp limit the engine was tested to or even the rate of power loss after 150f. im sure jan did all these same type of tests. did he ever mention what the water temp was when power started to decline and what the rate of decline was ?

[husaberg]

frits i remember reading something about a 2t engine that was tested and power started to go down after 150f water temp if i recall the story correctly. although i dont remember to what temp limit the engine was tested to or even the rate of power loss after 150f. im sure jan did all these same type of tests. did he ever mention what the water temp was when power started to decline and what the rate of decline was ?

Part one or Part two of Pitlane

[wobbly]

In a 50 Hp 125 going from 50 to 60*C losses 2 to 3 Hp.
We run the KZ2 engines as close to 40* as we can, running one of those at 60* will loose near on 1/2sec /lap as we know
from looking at the data log when the driver forgot to pull down the blind in front of the radiator.

[Flettner]

Nice new piston for the sleeve engine, arrived last night.

[Flettner]

Oops, what have we here? Finally found the camera. Hard chrome tube is 22mm Dia, ( OK it's 7/8" ), 2.1mm wall.
Top end is so secret, I don't even know what it looks like.

[husaberg]

Oops, what have we here? Finally found the camera.

That flywheel looks a little light Neil.

[adegnes]

Oops, what have we here? Finally found the camera.

Yes yes yes!

[Ocean1]

That flywheel looks a little light Neil.

Not to mention the tiny wee cylinder. And the piston seems to have a hole in it...

[Flettner]

That flywheel looks a little light Neil.

You don't want a heavy flywheel at 30,001 RPM.

[breezy]

Oops, what have we here? Finally found the camera. Hard chrome tube is 22mm Dia, ( OK it's 7/8" ), 2.1mm wall.
Top end is so secret, I don't even know what it looks like.

you calling it the, "pyramid engine"?:niceone::niceone:

[husaberg]

You don't want a heavy flywheel at 30,001 RPM.
So the flywheel is running at half speed than now

you calling it the, "pyramid engine"?:niceone::niceone:

Its something he schemed up

[adegnes]

Are you trying to copy my sleek design!?

315045

[Flettner]

Are you trying to copy my sleek design!?

315045

I guess thats why they call it the block, Hey why not? We can go back and make a pretty one later.

[Flettner]

Oops, what have we here? Finally found the camera. Hard chrome tube is 22mm Dia, ( OK it's 7/8" ), 2.1mm wall.
Top end is so secret, I don't even know what it looks like.

That's not entirely true, I know what I want inside, it has two exhaust ports and I can't make up my mind whether it will have eight ,ten or twelve transfers? One version uses reeds in the transfers and one does not. The one that does not will NEED EFI but will have massive blow down time. The second version is more ram jet inspired, rather than pulse jet.

[adegnes]

I guess thats why they call it the block, Hey why not? We can go back and make a pretty one later.

Cubism? :banana:

[JanBros]

frits i remember reading something about a 2t engine that was tested and power started to go down after 150f water temp if i recall the story correctly. although i dont remember to what temp limit the engine was tested to or even the rate of power loss after 150f. im sure jan did all these same type of tests. did he ever mention what the water temp was when power started to decline and what the rate of decline was ?

Jan has tested this with Aprillia, and if I remember correctly, HP goes down as soon as the temp rises : no radiator, only running cold water from the tap gave the most power. (like Husa says, on pitlane).

[breezy]

Oops, what have we here? Finally found the camera. Hard chrome tube is 22mm Dia, ( OK it's 7/8" ), 2.1mm wall.
Top end is so secret, I don't even know what it looks like.


315048 only just a thought, but perhaps for future designs maybe one of these could be attached to the side...:laugh::laugh: giving it that " phoenix from the flames" feel..... ;) ... just thinking out loud:rolleyes::rolleyes::drool:

[husaberg]

315048 only just a thought, but perhaps for future designs maybe one of these could be attached to the side...:laugh::laugh: giving it that " phoenix from the flames" feel..... ;) ... just thinking out loud:rolleyes::rolleyes::drool:
What turkey laid that
That particular design went pear shaped, egg shaped and rather odd.:innocent:

I was reading a article about what Hele had wanted to do with it.
He designed a 4 speed in the early fifties and gave it some decent power the management didn't want a bar of it they didn't see the point of more than 3 gears.

[TZ350]

315050
Oops, what have we here? Finally found the camera. Hard chrome tube is 22mm Dia, ( OK it's 7/8" ), 2.1mm wall. Top end is so secret, I don't even know what it looks like.

Took the old Beast's rolling chassis to its new home today and while I was there I had a look at Flettner's new project, a normal 4T crank and rod but with a beam from the rods LE eye to a pivot that you can see, just poking out the side of the case to the right of the degree wheel.

It amazes me that a normal crank rod arrangement salvaged from an old 4T can be made to push the tube up and down with what looked like little or no side loading.

315053

By rotating the eccentric pivot one can change the length of the stroke by about 2mm. Flettner also pointed out you could have a servo turn the pivot so that the engine would have truily controlled variable compression that suited the rpm.

315055315056

I also got to see the progress being made with the Creasy engine, it was very interesting to see how the piston and cylinder moved to expose the ports. lots of blowdown STA there and they are uncovered very quickly too.

315054

One of the autogyro, or is this a frost machine engine that Flettner makes sitting on the water brake dyno.

Many thanks for showing me your projects. Hopefully the old chassis will be useful when you want to road test one of these engines.

315057

Or if you want to try one of those big 2T engines out that you make for the frost machines as a track day bike engine. Anyway I am real pleased to think the Beast might still be useful as a test bed for one of these interesting engines .... :D

A 1100cc three cylinder two stroke, now that would be something ......

[peewee]

wob do you care to give a quick explanaition of how to measure the flow width of these type of ports for engmod ? it doesnt give any explanation in the help section. aparently they assume the purchaser is already smart or something :laugh:

also on the passage exit and window ratio, the help section only mentions if the piston doesnt fully uncover the window at bdc, and i understand that aspect of it but would a port with a radius wall or kicker inside the passage qaulify for a 1:1 ratio or does a measurement need to be taken slightly inside the passage and then compared to the window ? again the help section doesnt clarify any of this stuff

[breezy]

what turkey laid that
that particular design went pear shaped, egg shaped and rather odd.:innocent:

I was reading a article about what hele had wanted to do with it.
He designed a 4 speed in the early fifties and gave it some decent power the management didn't want a bar of it they didn't see the point of more than 3 gears.

0000000000:laugh::laugh::drinknsin

[ken seeber]

A random Ryger thought. Now, if a KZ has peak power @ 13k and the Ryger is @17k and it uses the same exhaust, this got me thinking. On the basis that Harry is still using the exhaust to improve the trapping efficiency then, all things being equal, could this mean that the exhaust duration is 13/17 ths of the normal KZ of, say 190deg, giving a duration of 145 deg? One thought is that this could give a longer power stroke. However, it also must be recognised that if 30% of the fuel energy goes equally to the power, coolant and exhaust, then we have 70 hp at our disposal to do something with, maybe in a more efficient way that just energising the exhaust system.

Obviously the line of thought is that, on the basis that the exhaust opens later, some other ports/passages open earlier to provide some subsequent mixture mass flow assistance. It is stated that there are 11 transfers. Looking at the pics, it does look like, externally anyway, that there is the conventional 2 *A, 2*B and 1*C, ports. So, the other six "transfers" might still be transfers, but carrying some flow in the downwards direction. There is no spec in the CIK regs that specify a bulk flow direction within the transfers.

[husaberg]

0000000000:laugh::laugh::drinknsin

I was eyeing up a set of villers crankcases today 9E or similar ilk thinking crickey a CR500 or similar crank would almost fit in there.
Gee they are heavy.
Can't think of a decent box though that has clutch and output on the same side though.

[breezy]

https://youtu.be/NjHr6_8hEqc having been inspired by TZ and this thread . finally got this running. suzuki gp 125 crank, cagiva mito barrel, bsa bantam cases. had originally used rotax junior barrel but changed for the power valved mito barrel because of the 50.6 x 56 stroke and bore.

[wobbly]

The ports are easy to define, the A port is simply the widths ( top and bottom ) perpendicular to the rear wall.
Then the B port is chordal across the face,then measure the duct before the hook perpendicular again ,and that enables the exit ratio to be calculated.

Ken, the low port giving a longer power stroke is a fallacy, the pressure when the port opens ( high or low ) is infinitesimal compared to the 90 Bar peak cylinder pressure.
A low port simply enables higher efficiency at the rpm extremes ,thus a much wider power band due to superposition of the Ex pulses.

[husaberg]

The ports are easy to define, the A port is simply the widths ( top and bottom ) perpendicular to the rear wall.
Then the B port is chordal across the face,then measure the duct before the hook perpendicular again ,and that enables the exit ratio to be calculated.

Ken, the low port giving a longer power stroke is a fallacy, the pressure when the port opens ( high or low ) is infinitesimal compared to the 90 Bar peak cylinder pressure.
A low port simply enables higher efficiency at the rpm extremes ,thus a much wider power band due to superposition of the Ex pulses.

I think relying on what we all knew or thought we knew or kind of knew may have been not the entire picture.
What ever the Ryger is using is seemingly not reliant on the chamber much at all.
Its certainly looks very plain jane.

[ken seeber]

The ports are easy to define, the A port is simply the widths ( top and bottom ) perpendicular to the rear wall.
Then the B port is chordal across the face,then measure the duct before the hook perpendicular again ,and that enables the exit ratio to be calculated.

Ken, the low port giving a longer power stroke is a fallacy, the pressure when the port opens ( high or low ) is infinitesimal compared to the 90 Bar peak cylinder pressure.
A low port simply enables higher efficiency at the rpm extremes ,thus a much wider power band due to superposition of the Ex pulses.


Wob, agreed that the longer power stroke is diminishing returns stuff. From my original SAE Honda plot, the pressures are around 12 and 5 bar, respectively at the 190 and 145 duration opening points, low as you say, in spite of the greater leverage at these points. Hence my thoughts of using that pressure for other purposes.

However, it is good to know, from what you say, that there is as much wider powerband potential. Maybe that's how he can get it to run to 30k without strangling itself with a totally off tuned pipe. If that's the case or not....this is the world of EngMod and dudes with a good understanding of the exhaust.

[Flettner]

A random Ryger thought. Now, if a KZ has peak power @ 13k and the Ryger is @17k and it uses the same exhaust, this got me thinking. On the basis that Harry is still using the exhaust to improve the trapping efficiency then, all things being equal, could this mean that the exhaust duration is 13/17 ths of the normal KZ of, say 190deg, giving a duration of 145 deg? One thought is that this could give a longer power stroke. However, it also must be recognised that if 30% of the fuel energy goes equally to the power, coolant and exhaust, then we have 70 hp at our disposal to do something with, maybe in a more efficient way that just energising the exhaust system.

Obviously the line of thought is that, on the basis that the exhaust opens later, some other ports/passages open earlier to provide some subsequent mixture mass flow assistance. It is stated that there are 11 transfers. Looking at the pics, it does look like, externally anyway, that there is the conventional 2 *A, 2*B and 1*C, ports. So, the other six "transfers" might still be transfers, but carrying some flow in the downwards direction. There is no spec in the CIK regs that specify a bulk flow direction within the transfers.

When you are not limited by rules (CIK) you can do anything. Im leaning toward the eight transfer port reedless cylinder with massive blowdown, pulsed EFI would be good but I'm not too sure of a system that will happily work at 30,001 RPM, perhaps constant flow, electronic control. Piston is dampened and as you see earlier a linkage is used, piston stroke is 52mm, crank is 34mm. Case will run under a vacuum. No one said transfers can not double as exhausts, with suitable thermal coating and water cooled. Do transfers even need to be connected to anything?
Right enough talk, off to the pattern shop, I feel a cylinder needs to be made, thankfully with all symmetrical ( ish ) port shapes.
Best of all it won't need coating as nothing will be touching the cylinder wall.
Edit, on second thoughts six transfers might be better and a little easier to make.
Edit 2, port radii ? who needs them, no rings to catch.

[Lightbulb]

A random Ryger thought. Now, if a KZ has peak power @ 13k and the Ryger is @17k and it uses the same exhaust, this got me thinking. On the basis that Harry is still using the exhaust to improve the trapping efficiency then, all things being equal, could this mean that the exhaust duration is 13/17 ths of the normal KZ of, say 190deg, giving a duration of 145 deg? One thought is that this could give a longer power stroke. However, it also must be recognised that if 30% of the fuel energy goes equally to the power, coolant and exhaust, then we have 70 hp at our disposal to do something with, maybe in a more efficient way that just energising the exhaust system.

Obviously the line of thought is that, on the basis that the exhaust opens later, some other ports/passages open earlier to provide some subsequent mixture mass flow assistance. It is stated that there are 11 transfers. Looking at the pics, it does look like, externally anyway, that there is the conventional 2 *A, 2*B and 1*C, ports. So, the other six "transfers" might still be transfers, but carrying some flow in the downwards direction. There is no spec in the CIK regs that specify a bulk flow direction within the transfers.

Ken, you think my guess might be fairly close then.
I recon the other ports are not transfer ports, but are most likely induction ports of some kind before it is super compressed. As it is simple and yet very different, this makes more sense to me.
Early successful schnurle ported model diesel race engines had Transfer timings of 90 to 100 deg and exhaust timing of 110 to 120 deg. The models flew 3.3km on lines at about 190km/h on 6cc of fuel/ 1 max tank capacity. The newest ones have case designs where they have made the cases with the least amount of volume possible,but have ex timings in the 140 to 150 range and transfer timings in the 115 to 125 deg. They now do 210 km/h and 5.1 to 5.2 km/tank /6cc max fuel. So they have dramatically improved efficiency and still do not use tuned pipes. If the Ryger does not need a crank case to flow air fuel into the engine, there is the possibility to get substantially higher transfer pressures and a pipe design that only does the efficient extraction of the exhaust and supplies only enough total system pressure to keep the maximum amount of air fuel in the cylinder.
Neil

[sonic_v]

A random Ryger thought. Now, if a KZ has peak power @ 13k and the Ryger is @17k and it uses the same exhaust, this got me thinking. On the basis that Harry is still using the exhaust to improve the trapping efficiency then, all things being equal, could this mean that the exhaust duration is 13/17 ths of the normal KZ of, say 190deg, giving a duration of 145 deg? .

Ken

You have got your ratio the wrong way round. The duration would be 17/13 times 190 giving 248 degrees duration.

[PVO]

The ring is stationary, no inertia no matter what speed. Gas pressure would still be able to squeeze the ring in, like normal just the other way round, could even be small holes from combustion chamber to the back of the ring? Maybe. Ring would have to be well supported so it can only move in "a knats cock" smaller than the piston when the piston is not there. Could it be any worse than in our normal engines with the ring bulging out of its groove every time it passes the exhaust port. Twice every cycle the ring has to be shoved back into it's groove by a small champher in the exhaust port, the ring in the side of the cylinder wall would have to move less than that. Latest ring technology has it that there is not much spring pressure (movement) in the ring when its loose on the piston, out of the cylinder. I know it sounds crazy but what else?
If the rings never touch the piston, then they are not piston rings:msn-wink:

Based on this photo of the Ryger after testing it looks like the ring may move with the piston. Note the undisturbed cross-hatch at the top of the cylinder bore. Around 10mm down you can see the wear line where, presumably the ring changes direction. If the piston moves straight up and down I would not expect this wear to come from the piston contacting the cylinder.

The alternative would be that the piston does contact the bore due to expansion. If this were the case then perhaps a ring isn't used at all. These are just a couple observations I've made, which may or may not have any merit.

Figuring out how to use gas pressure to float the ring in the piston groove throughout the engine's stroke would be clever.

Or perhaps you run ring-less with a tight fitting piston and use a high compression ratio. Then put whatever gases that escape past the piston to use on the next cycle.

Paul

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10676352_863137543721942_4514256043712518832_n.jpg ?oh=4f6001ce0bd8afa941a311ca80c3c78d&oe=5636E284

Image Source: Knowledge FB (https://www.facebook.com/640049072697458/photos/pcb.863137763721920/863137543721942/?type=1&theater)

[F5 Dave]

A stepped head like a gg or others would explain the hone marks. What is the std kart head design?

[wobbly]

Your average KZ2 has the squish spigoted down 3mm + 1mm squish +2.5mm ring land.
So the ring is stopping in that bore at the same place.

As we know that the volume of fuel/air that is inducted into the cylinder on each stroke is actually residing in the transfer ducts (NOT in the case ) then if
those transfers are connected to a very small volume under the piston ( and insulated from the crankcase ) then that volume will be affected by a VERY high piston
compression ratio as it drops - before the ports open.
Thus the induction system only has to supply mixture into a space that comprises mainly of the transfer volume itself.
Fast to fill due to the small volume, fast to empty due to the compression ratio, and much less reliant on pipe effects around bdc to evacuate the cylinder.

If the ratio of transfer port STA is then matched correctly to the Ex STA to optimize this system then high efficiency would result.
But we have been told the ports timings are relatively unimportant, thus I believe some derivative of the FOS radial ring of transfers setup with that small connecting volume is acting
to create a very coherent vertical tower of Pisa effect.
It is this that efficiently evacuates the whole cylinder ,and this would explain the port timing comment exactly.

But we still have no idea of what is hiding in the crankcase.

[Flettner]

Based on this photo of the Ryger after testing it looks like the ring may move with the piston. Note the undisturbed cross-hatch at the top of the cylinder bore. Around 10mm down you can see the wear line where, presumably the ring changes direction. If the piston moves straight up and down I would not expect this wear to come from the piston contacting the cylinder.

The alternative would be that the piston does contact the bore due to expansion. If this were the case then perhaps a ring isn't used at all. These are just a couple observations I've made, which may or may not have any merit.

Figuring out how to use gas pressure to float the ring in the piston groove throughout the engine's stroke would be clever.

Or perhaps you run ring-less with a tight fitting piston and use a high compression ratio. Then put whatever gases that escape past the piston to use on the next cycle.

Paul

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10676352_863137543721942_4514256043712518832_n.jpg ?oh=4f6001ce0bd8afa941a311ca80c3c78d&oe=5636E284

Image Source: Knowledge FB (https://www.facebook.com/640049072697458/photos/pcb.863137763721920/863137543721942/?type=1&theater)

Yes it certainly looks that way, if this is the 70 HP cylinder. It might well be that the ring is somthing completly not what we think a ring should look like?

[peewee]

hey guys im going to start a yamaha project pretty soon and split my time between it and finishing this ktm project. luckily i learned alot about welding just in the last few months on the ktm, as this yamaha will have some welding also but not near as much as the ktm. i got some ideas to accomplish things such as raising the exh floor with far less welding and heat warpage so i hope they work out like i think. once i get going ill have some pics. anyways i just wanted to see what my welds looked like today in comparison to a few months back. hopefully i can continue to learn even more as i find welding quit a bit of fun. blob of shit on the left was few months ago and the bead on the right is from today

[JanBros]

As we know that the volume of fuel/air that is inducted into the cylinder on each stroke is actually residing in the transfer ducts (NOT in the case ) then ...

... you are still thinking inside the box and not outside, which in a lesser or more degree we need to do ?

which doesn't mean you are wrong, only saying it might not aply to the Ryger ;)

[TZ350]

Are you trying to copy my sleek design!?

315045

I love it.


i just wanted to see what my welds looked like today in comparison to a few months back.

Thats good welding.


https://youtu.be/NjHr6_8hEqc having been inspired by TZ and this thread . finally got this running. suzuki gp 125 crank, cagiva mito barrel, bsa bantam cases. had originally used rotax junior barrel but changed for the power valved mito barrel because of the 50.6 x 56 stroke and bore.

Looking good, a fast BSA Bantam .... :drinknsin

The first bike I ever rode was a Bantam, fell off it at the first corner.

[ken seeber]

Ken

You have got your ratio the wrong way round. The duration would be 17/13 times 190 giving 248 degrees duration.

Sonic, you're right. Well spotted. Have to rethink things again. At least I can blame something....old age.

As to the pics posted on Knowledge, there is something amiss. The pics show a cylinder with a face O ring seal, whereas the Ryger and VM have a deep counterbore around the OD, where in the case of the VM, the head spigots into the counterbore bore with a O ring sealing against this bore. Also, the Ryger cylinder bore pic we have seen shows an unmarked piston crown, with coarse machining, whereas the the pis shows a Mondokart branded piston, which is in fact originally a Meteor piston.

[SwePatrick]

What if..

All that´s been said about this Rygerengine is just smoke and mirrors?
Carefully planned infoleaks to build up some rumors that increase from mouth to mouth, and gain 'mythstatus'.
And in the ending isn´t more than a 'longrod' twostroke?

With that said,, there aren´t really anything to discuss.
We´ve seen a cylinder with a piston halfway down.
and an outside picture with an 'old' setup cylinderreed config raised with a spacer.
Some 'paper's' that can have been printed out with some fantasy in photoshop.
A picture of some suspicious hoses and bottles mounted in a kart.
some statement like 'do not let the piston touch the rings', yes... what rings?
O-ring that seal cylinder?
It doesn´t state in detail what rings.

And finally,, let´s just wait and see.
Good things come to those who waits.

Rgds

[Lightbulb]

What if the pipe is no longer a tuned pipe when connected to a Ryger engine. Then the timing numbers do not matter any more.
Fairly hard to tell, but if the piston is 1/2 way down the bore and the ex is still not open, then I might be on the right line of thinking.
Neil

[Flettner]

What if..

All that´s been said about this Rygerengine is just smoke and mirrors?
Carefully planned infoleaks to build up some rumors that increase from mouth to mouth, and gain 'mythstatus'.
And in the ending isn´t more than a 'longrod' twostroke?

With that said,, there aren´t really anything to discuss.
We´ve seen a cylinder with a piston halfway down.
and an outside picture with an 'old' setup cylinderreed config raised with a spacer.
Some 'paper's' that can have been printed out with some fantasy in photoshop.
A picture of some suspicious hoses and bottles mounted in a kart.
some statement like 'do not let the piston touch the rings', yes... what rings?
O-ring that seal cylinder?
It doesn´t state in detail what rings.

And finally,, let´s just wait and see.
Good things come to those who waits.

Rgds

I agree, but Fits gives it the stamp of approval, hard to ignore!
Running without premix (oil to the top end) also hard to ignore.
Good things come to those who wait, can't wait, how long will it take?

[wobbly]

Yea well I said exactly what SwePat is saying months ago, but unfortunately it is a confirmed fact that the Ryger has applied for
a official homologation with the CIK - this is NOT smoke and mirrors.
It HAS NOT been approved ( the application has only been approved and then forwarded by Rygers country ISN associate of the CIK ) but the homologation is in process as we speak.
And yes I insist that having a very low Ex duration, would in fact allow the engine to use a normal style pipe but then use superposition to give
huge gains in power at the rpm extremes.
We have seen a pic of a very normal looking KZ2 pipe, but for sure from the visual I can see the rear cone is reduced in taper, thus naturally allowing greater powerband width.

But to give big gains in emission control as well as big gains in power there are only three variables that matter.

First is scavenging efficiency, and as we know it has a huge number of transfer ports, then it logically follows that if these are directed properly
we can assume that it generates a very high proportion of clean A/F in the cylinder at the point of combustion - helping both power and emissions.

Next is trapping efficiency,this I would suspect is a natural result of having a very low Ex duration, as the cylinder is being quickly filled by that superb
scavenging regime with pure A/F mixture, then most of it is then held within the cylinder with little chance to escape into the duct and pipe.

Lastly is charging ratio,to make more power it is a simple corollary that we need MORE A/F mixture to be ingested per revolution than simply the swept
volume created byf the bore X stroke calculation.
Again , this is a natural corollary of having a huge transfer STA created by the multiple ports needed to give the great scavenging regime.

If we then add the other elements that seem to be making everyone tear their hair out ie no ring friction,and the ability to be reliable at 30,000 rpm
then this man Harry Ryger may just replace my current 2T hero, no sweat.

[Grumph]

Can i suggest that as the Ryger homologation form says two rings, there are indeed two rings...Possibly one in the conventional position close to the top of the piston, and the second at the bottom.

If it indeed has a lower end carrying oil as seems to be accepted now, a lower ring is pretty well essential to prevent oil migration to the combustion chamber.

If it is not using the crankcase as part of the induction process, the piston can be a very plain, symmetrical shape with no lower cutaways.

If the piston is longer than we would currently accept as normal, the pin boss could be relatively low, leading to the use of a shortish - 90mm - rod which could be quite nuggety - fourstroke proportions...

Lot of ifs.....

And how you prevent the ring touching the piston - or why you would want to, I don't know.

[Flettner]

fredric21 wrote:
Any two-stroke that drags oil across cylinder ports with the piston rings can never be a "clean" motor. The claims for the Ryger engine are unfounded, I would say. Also, all the suggestions for "improved" two-stroke designs suffer from the same fateful flaws.
I will make no stupid claims for my own two-stroke engine (which is being developed right now) until I have some genuine proofs of its efficacy.

Frederic, where does the Ryger claims a 100% clean engine?
When the word "clean" is used it was meant in comparison with the current 2 stroke design.
And what do you mean by "the same fateful flaws" ?

Ryger Engine built by Mcd Twist Ryger Engine
125 cc, over 80% less emissions, 70 bhp, max. rpm 30.000.


Quoting LucF again, interesting.

[husaberg]

fredric21 wrote:
Any two-stroke that drags oil across cylinder ports with the piston rings can never be a "clean" motor. The claims for the Ryger engine are unfounded, I would say. Also, all the suggestions for "improved" two-stroke designs suffer from the same fateful flaws.
I will make no stupid claims for my own two-stroke engine (which is being developed right now) until I have some genuine proofs of its efficacy.

Frederic, where does the Ryger claims a 100% clean engine?
When the word "clean" is used it was meant in comparison with the current 2 stroke design.
And what do you mean by "the same fateful flaws" ?

Ryger Engine built by Mcd Twist Ryger Engine
125 cc, over 80% less emissions, 70 bhp, max. rpm 30.000.


Quoting LucF again, interesting.
On a side note
Luc F everyone may remember was developing a similar Exhaust over transfers engine to Mr Overmars FOS
Luc F also has an ignition that works up to pretty huge RPMs





Frits Overmars
I do have some impressions for you, but not many facts. The visit to Ryger was held in a very pleasant atmosphere, but I have, like English should sign predicted, a confidentiality clause. If I'm not there to keep, can theoretically me that a contractual penalty of € 100,000 come to be, so I will have to control myself.
What I do can tell, the project makes a serious impression, it certainly looks like there is good about it and what I myself always think it's important, it's easy!
About power and speed I can not say anything. I have no power measurement attended and seen no measurable results. I hear the engine as the goat walk and that was a remarkable experience. For the average listener, he sounds like a normal kart engine, but I'm already half my life to the test bench, and I can at the hearing or estimate how much the torque curve will look like.
I'm not saying I can hear how much torque is there, but the acceleration indicates a tight curve without the usual stroke dent thirds of the max.torque-speed. The engine is also very easy touring, though we have not been at 20,000.
This weekend I hope the kart on the track to see it in action and then hopefully follow a test bench measurements.
I try to keep you up to date as far as me not going to cost € 100,000.


Harry Ryger

In my first design we have indeed -Well lesser extent-had this problem.
if you prefer this, I can just send a new confidentiality agreement and demonstrate the new concept.
It is not intended that the motor is 30,000 rpm draaien.want then one would request the material gods.
The maximum capacity is between 17 and 18k rpm.
However, the speed limit at 30,000 rpm is far he reaches continues.

In a question to Mr Ryger
And that's one noticed approximately 24 hp more than the rest?

To avoid further speculation, the engine is subjected to endurance tests and there are now more than a year ryger around the circuits in Netherlands .... well it strikes me that most responses are that he is remarkably fast, but nobody notices that no plume of smoke coming out . power is not always an advantage English ... hence the production model is also limited.

With Luc we find a good solution to limit the speed at about 20,000 rpm max is 30,000 at the moment.





Jan Thiel

After initially to have been some scepties, by seeing older drawings,
I believe there is now way in.
My compliments Harry Ryger !!!

Very nice is that this engine will hardly weigh more than a 'normal' 2 stroke.
If there is a future for the 2 stroke, this is it ....

Twist that's a interesting word.

http://wktodd.webspace.virginmedia.com/animations/wpimages/RR%20Crecy.gif
What's to say the sleeve valve is so near the piston.
Add in a guided rod and ultra high primary comp
315089
http://www.mmcontrol.com/images/ani2.gif
Maybe without even the exhaust port covered at tdc if it had a valve like above

[ken seeber]

DEATH & DESTRUCTION

Pics are from a twin (2*100cc air cooled reeds) engined kart. Info we have that it was a new piston, hard to start, slow as, did only 1-2 laps, damage done. That's all we know. No feedback on whether there was any ring damage to the head, bore, eg exh ports. Piston inside is clean as.

315094315095315096

To me, this all sounds like it was fitted to the engine without a ring; no compression, hard to start, a slug, being probably semi driven by the good engine. Pretty good job though.

If this is the case, it is an excellent example of the reason why we have piston rings. Of course, someone might have other theories though.

[husaberg]

DEATH & DESTRUCTION

Pics are from a twin (2*100cc air cooled reeds) engined kart. Info we have that it was a new piston, hard to start, slow as, did only 1-2 laps, damage done. That's all we know. No feedback on whether there was any ring damage to the head, bore, eg exh ports. Piston inside is clean as.



To me, this all sounds like it was fitted to the engine without a ring; no compression, hard to start, a slug, being probably semi driven by the good engine. Pretty good job though.

If this is the case, it is an excellent example of the reason why we have piston rings. Of course, someone might have other theories though.
Dykes? was it what engine is 200cc kart twin?

[Yow Ling]

Dykes? was it what engine is 200cc kart twin?
Dykes are people too, dont judge them

KT100's ?

[ken seeber]

Dykes? was it what engine is 200cc kart twin?

It was a twin engined kart with one separate 100 cc engine on each side. Yes, the ring was, or maybe should have been, of the Dykes type.

[husaberg]

Dykes are people too, dont judge them

KT100's ?

I almost forgot you were a little Dutch boy.:bleh:
315104315105

[ranasada]

Can i suggest that as the Ryger homologation form says two rings, there are indeed two rings...Possibly one in the conventional position close to the top of the piston, and the second at the bottom.

If it indeed has a lower end carrying oil as seems to be accepted now, a lower ring is pretty well essential to prevent oil migration to the combustion chamber.

If it is not using the crankcase as part of the induction process, the piston can be a very plain, symmetrical shape with no lower cutaways.

If the piston is longer than we would currently accept as normal, the pin boss could be relatively low, leading to the use of a shortish - 90mm - rod which could be quite nuggety - fourstroke proportions...

Lot of ifs.....

And how you prevent the ring touching the piston - or why you would want to, I don't know.

i think the same.
additionally to arrive at 11 transfer port i think we have to consider piston's holes as transfer: the cilinder outside is similar as the original VM motor unless the inlet valve; there is no space for more transfer in the cilinder.
my 2 cents.
regards

[Muciek]

Found on net, Billet 3 piece cylinder block for RD400 for land speed record racing ,
315111315112315113315114315115315116

Edit: Text that was under pictures

"I am also going back to iron sleeves. Nikasil is more of a pain than I think it is worth. I may prove myself wrong, but I am going with it.

The problem with Nikasil is if you seize it ruins it which is expensive and takes a month to have re-done. But the worst part is every time it has to be replated, the nitric acid eats all of the alloying elements out of the aluminum. Last years engine is toast. The threads are all gone. Anything that used to be a press fit is now loose. It may make more power not to have the residual heat from the iron heating up the intake, but it comes at a way too high of cost...for me.

The bike is all ready to go for this year. It makes more power than I ever dreamed. But the salt may be a thing of the past. Speed week was canceled and the Bonneville Motorcycle Speed Trials right after. World of Speed has not been canceled as of yet, but all reports make it look not promising. I will be there if it is a go.

[seattle smitty]

Specifics aside, what an interesting way to fabricate it, splitting the block horizontally just below where the transfers turn into the ports! A good way to build an engine from billet on a milling machine without castings (we used to call these "drillpress motors"), and you could experiment with more than one upper section, with different port-entries. Why can't I think of these things?!!

[jonny quest]

There is a major issue with sectioned cylinders like these. I'm assuming he's using a steel sleeve. Heat transfer

Maybe he could NiCasil each layer separately, then hone as an assembly if pinning sections is perfect

[adegnes]

Found on net, Billet 3 piece cylinder block for RD400 for land speed record racing ,
315111315112315113315114315115315116

Looks like shit with all those rounded edges n stuff! Should have kept the outside square and unfinished!

Ok... Looks great! Most of it could be done by hand too, if you don't mind spending the hours.

[wobbly]

And it was all designed in EngMod.
Here is the baseline first dynorun with all the ports, timings and pipe straight off the sim.
Not bad for a RD400 running petrol.

[marsheng]

Last race meeting, I lent over to turn off the fuel at the end of the day and the bike cutout.

Here is the reason
http://www.marshland.co.nz/ftp/MaicoBimota/PistonHead.JPG

Only when I split the crank did I find the problem.
A few of the big ends needle cage roller separators had broken off. (New rod,
only 10 or so race meetings.)

The big end pin has some damage. It was opposite the highest load area which
surprised me??
See here http://www.marshland.co.nz/ftp/MaicoBimota/Bigend.JPG
The slight scuff marks are scotchbright I used to make the damage more
visible.

Did the cage break or pin gall first ? Possibly the case hardening was not
thick enough ? I have a second rod pin here with similar wear.
Interesting that the 2 copper thrust washers have also made a small indent in
the pin on the the same side.

The conrod is still good and I'm told to get INA conrod bearings which are
supposed to be the best. I can't find there here. Anyone got a source ?
25*31*17.

The next thing is a new pin. After chatting around, 39B seems to be the best
material to use to make one. This looks like a nice new exercise to do.

Don't really want to buy a new one as I have no idea where they are made.

Cheers Wallace.

[wobbly]

Absolutely typical failure of a W big end cage - this is exactly why they have changed to "proper " racing flat outer faces
with just slots to guide the needles.
In the W design only the very outside edge of the cage is supported ( and wearing ) on the inside of the rod bore, once the silver has gone
from this area then lubrication failure follows directly behind.
Simple copper coated washers and big ends are shit - a failure waiting to occur.
You run Meth - and of course you wash the engine thru with petroil after every startup ?
If you dont the Meth on the bearing surfaces absorbs moisture - it forms rust, then it goes bang.

The bearing size is non standard, none of the major factories list it, 25/32 is the norm.
25 mm solid pins are available in 60.5 and 64mm cheap as chips off the shelf.
EN36B is a better material, it remains more ductile in the core after case hardening,but the costs of grinding and heat treating a one of pin
are a waste of time.

[Flettner]

Come on Harry, word up! I'm sure I speak for everyone here:laugh:

[marsheng]

Absolutely typical failure of a W big end cage -
The bearing size is non standard, none of the major factories list it, 25/32 is the norm.
25 mm solid pins are available in 60.5 and 64mm cheap as chips off the shelf.


Excuse my ignorance but what is a W big end ?

Where do I get bigend pins from? I've obviously been looking in the wrong places.

I hope the INA bearings will be better.

Maybe time to look at a YZ250 crank upgrade.

[husaberg]

The conrod is still good and I'm told to get INA conrod bearings which are
supposed to be the best. I can't find there here. Anyone got a source ?
25*31*17.



Cheers Wallace.

DT250 AND TS250 ARE THE SAME MEASUREMENTS ONLY WIDER.
TKRJ list one that is Silver plated and 25x31x16.8.
93310-424L8 25x31x16.8 GX0570G GX AG ( it will be W Type though)
http://www.tkrj.co.jp/product/m-be-bearing.html
As wobbly said it is a silly size Honda ran 25mm pins on the GP bikes as well.
Pro X Samarain and Kevin breedon offer nothing in these sizes.
Change your pin size or conrod or both.
The only other option is the specialist stuff for Maicos try one of there web pages.

Or Honda CR250 Rod kit 2002-2007
315130

[TZ350]

page 1280 .....



(Insert long sigh here) I hate, I hate to ask this, because I know I've seen the answer somewhere, ... but could one of you skilled info-locators please once-and-for-all-time give a detailed step-by-step set of search directions here, to show us how to find something WITHIN the ESE superthread.

Seattle Smitty's original post, is the start of a short thread with many tips on how to search and find good stuff on the ESE thread or any thread for that matter.

Instead of the usual collection of useful technical stuff its maybe time to celebrate the efforts of those doing their own work tuning and interesting engine modifications. Go to the original posts to see the pictures.


hey guys im going to start a yamaha project pretty soon and split my time between it and finishing this ktm project. luckily i learned alot about welding just in the last few months on the ktm, as this yamaha will have some welding also but not near as much as the ktm. i got some ideas to accomplish things such as raising the exh floor with far less welding and heat warpage so i hope they work out like i think. once i get going ill have some pics. anyways i just wanted to see what my welds looked like today in comparison to a few months back. hopefully i can continue to learn even more as i find welding quit a bit of fun. blob of shit on the left was few months ago and the bead on the right is from today

My personal favorite is the idea of starting completely from scratch to learn something new like PeeWee's has with his welding so he can build the ultimate cylinder. I am very impressed by that.


The ports may need to be bigger yet but this is as far as i made it tonight. theres a before pic to compare. every corner was sharp as a razor


Well i got the cylinder back from the machine shop and all things considered i think it turned out well.


what you think. should be able to put some nice tea cups in now. lost count of how much filler was used but i think it was somewhere around 7 or 8 rods at 3' x 3.15mm. also took some molds of another cylinder so i have a 3D visual guide on how to make the radius twist on the front side of A as ill do a similar window shape with this other cylinder


Made a mold of the transfers today. i think what im going to do is run a bead or two on the outside of the cylinder and then use devcon on the inside wall so i can get a nice big radius through the duct. the plate attached to the cylinder bottom was nothing more than a half ass heat sink in hopes the gasket surface wouldn't pull down. one side stayed pretty flat. the other side sunk about .16mm (which is good enough for me) for you metric folks. i guess it should be more like the blue line




Blended exhaust, this is what I made for our 6.5cc engine, the reduction at the oval is 75% of the projected exhaust area. I did not take into account curvature of the liner, radius 10.19mm. The shape to oval takes place over a distance of 7mm at the shortest part, about 10 mm at the corners for the top and outer edges of the exhaust.

The pipe header is 15.0 mm diameter, and the oval is 15mm wide and 9.9 mm high. From the oval to the diameter, That part was turned as a taper from 15mm to 9.9 mm diameter. Then I just used a 3/8 endmill to make a slot through the assemble cutting an oval 9.9 x 15.
You can see from 1 picture the shape of the exhaust and the faceted looking blend, but that is the cad. Then you will see the round to the oval and the bottom area that has a small step.

I tried an adapter that was like a wire cut from the oval to the diameter 15mm header. But there was no measurable power gain or any benefit from the extra work compared to the turned taper and an oval slot put through.

The oval to round is over a length of about 20 mm or so. It's not a motor bike but the idea really does work. I can't tell you why exactly that it works though. Hopefully this will be of some help to someone.

314026





Are you trying to copy my sleek design!?

315045


Here's the iame m50 cylinder, got it a few days ago. It's so tiny it's ridiculous!


312254312255312256312257312258

Meassured primary volume @tdc is about 242cc, will probably end up around 250-255 if I add material to the cylinder and match the ports to my case, or around 230-235 if I weld up the case transfers. Hmm... What to do?




312254312255312256312257312258

Meassured primary volume @tdc is about 242cc, will probably end up around 250-255 if I add material to the cylinder and match the ports to my case, or around 230-235 if I weld up the case transfers. Hmm... What to do?




313908313909313910313905313906313907

A “ROUGH AS GUTS” EXPERIMENT Part 1

The question is, what happens when you:
1. Get a 100 cc ARC piston port kart engine, essentially very similar and with many interchangeable parts with the Yamaha KT100S kart engine, and connect an A port to atmosphere via a filled in passage to a flanged face. Height of the port is unchanged from the original engine.
2. However, when at TDC, there is a direct passage (something we don’t want, do we?) to the crankcase via the cut-out in the side of a regular piston
3. So we weld a small piece into this side of the piston to block it off and while we are there we’ll drill a series of holes into the rear of piston to vent thru the open piston port inlet so there’ll be no great pressure fluctuations in the crankcase

Part 2 coming


313911313912313913313914


A “ROUGH AS GUTS” EXPERIMENT Part 2

4. So there’s no influence due to extraneous cylinder connected volumes in the upper cavities of the blocked off transfer passages (1 * A & 2 * B), we fill these flush with Silastic
5. Then we bolt it all together with a carb, but with no exhaust system
6. Crank it over with a few squirts of oil into the crankcase, check it out and it is all nice and oily, as one would expect with a wet sump.
7. Fill the carb with fuel only (no oil), ignition on and crank it over.

Simple really and I did say “rough as guts”.

WODDAEWESREKKON happens then?


So it's bloody impressive looking at the build over the past year.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=298631&d=1404204748

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=299956&d=1408084220

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=303200&d=1412917306

[TZ350]

Excuse my ignorance but what is a W big end ?

It is the shape of the cage, if you look at a cross section it looks like a "W".

315127

Flat bearing cages are preferred, preferably silver plated or better yet Peek coated.

315129

[J.A.W.]

Scroll down this link & check out the R.E. Olds patent diagram/drawing..

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2014/01/09/ransom-eli-olds-and-the-supercharged-two-stroke-diesel/

Mayhaps something familiar/similar there?

[marsheng]

It is the shape of the cage, if you look at a cross section it looks like a "W".

315127

Flat bearing cages are preferred, preferably silver plated or better yet Peek coated.

315129

Thanks I now understand.

The conrod is 132 mm eye to eye which puts it into its own category. I looked up many models and the YZ250 looked close with a length of 125mm. The stoke on the Maico is 70 and the YZ 68 so it is possible.

I found the JKJR bearings yesterday but thought that INA may be better. Bugger, as I just had a shipment from THJR last week and would have been easy to add a few in.

The problem with 'Maico' agents is, where are they made? I see several sellers of bits and on closer inspection, they are Royal rods made in Tiawan. The problem is that the so called Royal Maico 250 rods have a 22 mm pin. No Maicos I know of had a 22 mm pin.

The do however have a flat bearing cage.

Thanks for the input Wallace.

[peewee]

315094315095315096


thats weird. my piston looked nearly the same after trying amsoil :laugh:

[F5 Dave]

132? That's houwge, are you sure? But Japanese rodkit upgrade will get you ahead and provide cheap parts for future rebuild.

[husaberg]

Thanks I now understand.

The conrod is 132 mm eye to eye which puts it into its own category. I looked up many models and the YZ250 looked close with a length of 125mm. The stoke on the Maico is 70 and the YZ 68 so it is possible.

I found the JKJR bearings yesterday but thought that INA may be better. Bugger, as I just had a shipment from THJR last week and would have been easy to add a few in.

The problem with 'Maico' agents is, where are they made? I see several sellers of bits and on closer inspection, they are Royal rods made in Tiawan. The problem is that the so called Royal Maico 250 rods have a 22 mm pin. No Maicos I know of had a 22 mm pin.

The do however have a flat bearing cage.

Thanks for the input Wallace.

There is a longer rod for the YZ250 130mm length 1989 is the year this was std in.
its a common mod for Late YZ's.
315135

I have also seen some Euro sites where they sell stuff for VMX.
I could try and did out a few old mags.
But seeing as you are an engineer I would build your engine around common stuff I will try and get the measurements on the YZ250 89 rod.

[marsheng]

[QUOTE=husaberg;1130894540]There is a longer rod for the YZ250 130mm length 1989 is the year this was std in.
its a common mod for Late YZ's.
315135

The YZ250 looks like a great option. Slightly wider big end and the bike was rated at 48hp so this should work well.

I'll look into that.

The small end is 23 compared to the Maico 22 but I'm sure I can find a bearing for this.

Thanks again.

[husaberg]

[QUOTE=husaberg;1130894540]There is a longer rod for the YZ250 130mm length 1989 is the year this was std in.
its a common mod for Late YZ's.
315135

The YZ250 looks like a great option. Slightly wider big end and the bike was rated at 48hp so this should work well.

I'll look into that.

The small end is 23 compared to the Maico 22 but I'm sure I can find a bearing for this.

Thanks again.

But wait
PS I have no idea what the odd one is from.
315136

[manolis]

Hello Kiwi

Hello Husaberg

The volume above the exhaust ports (post #9172):

http://wktodd.webspace.virginmedia.com/animations/wpimages/RR%20Crecy.gif

seems difficult to be scavenged (lots of residual gas).
Reasonably it will operate much hotter than the conventional 2-strokes.

The exhaust valve:

http://www.mmcontrol.com/images/ani2.gif

is simpler but, as the sleeve valve, has several issues: hot (it is a metal grid, like a radiator, through which all the exhaust gas passes, it abuts heavily – and moves at the same time - onto the cylinder head, it requires sealing means at various points, it requires strong actuation mechanism. What about the spark plug?


Here is an unconventional rotary valve:

http://www.pattakon.com/PatRoVa/PatRoVa_2Stroke.gif

(more at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonPatRoVa.htm )

The compression –combustion – expansion pressure loads heavily two opposite surfaces / fronts of the rotary valve. But the force on the one front counterbalances the force on the other front (through the hub) leaving nothing to the bearings.

The lower cylinder wall can be full of ports (transfer or exhaust, depending on what the rotary valve is for).


For asymmetric intake without reed or disk valves, the PatATi approach can be used:

http://www.pattakon.com/PatAT/PatATi_OP_full.gif

Youtube video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXvRaVqiHxs

http://www.pattakon.com/PatAT/PatATi_model1.gif

http://www.pattakon.com/PatAT/PatATi_model1_timing.gif

(more at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonPatAT.htm )

In the PatATi a properly shaped connecting rod in cooperation with a properly shaped piston opens and closes asymmetrically intake ports on the cylinder liner.




The PatRoVa rotary valve better fits with 4-strokes:

Youtube video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q-EGdeS0ws

http://www.pattakon.com/PatRoVa/PatRoVa.gif


(the underneath mechanism:

http://www.pattakon.com/PatRoVa/PatRoVa_photo5.jpg

shwon better in the following drawings:

http://www.pattakon.com/PPE_files/HARMO1.gif

http://www.pattakon.com/PatTwo/PatTwo_Harmonic1.gif

is unconventional only because it was available when the PatRoVa prototype was made.

(before reading at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonPatTwo.htm think what the trottle with the lever in the last drawing is for).

Objections?
Questions?

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

[husaberg]

Hello Kiwi

Hello Husaberg

The volume above the exhaust ports (post #9172):


seems difficult to be scavenged (lots of residual gas).
Reasonably it will operate much hotter than the conventional 2-strokes.

The exhaust valve:



is simpler but, as the sleeve valve, has several issues: hot (it is a metal grid, like a radiator, through which all the exhaust gas passes, it abuts heavily – and moves at the same time - onto the cylinder head, it requires sealing means at various points, it requires strong actuation mechanism. What about the spark plug?



(before reading at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonPatTwo.htm think what the trottle with the lever in the last drawing is for).

Objections?
Questions?

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

The Grate sliding valve was a muse
http://www.mmcontrol.com/images/ani2.gif
I could not be worse than a poppet valve and look what they have been developed into.
I do really enjoy your animations.
That cutaway piston I posted was actually raided from one.;)

This one I do like. but maybe with the top end crosshead guided?
315138315139

The rotary valve prototype is interesting not unlike the Coates and the Aussie (Deane) only done differently.
The prototype engine is fashioned/fabricated together in the manner of the Autounion f1 engines. neat

I do like the creasy engine Why?
Because after only a few rushed years they were better and more reliable than a conventional engine development only stopped because the turbines were better again.
With some devolvement R&D and modern metallurgy who knows.
I added it in as I could see no other reason for the "Twist" in Ryger
http://wktodd.webspace.virginmedia.com/animations/wpimages/RR%20Crecy.gif

[breezy]

Manolis... great post, excellent animations:yes::yes:

[WilDun]

Sorry, I haven't digested all this stuff as yet, it's all very interesting.
However, I do remember way back when someone asked Doug Hele (Designer of Triumph's Trident etc.and a very rational guy) what he thought of that very same "straight line" mechanism now being proposed for the Pattakon, he said that it would not be viable because of the gearing necessary and the extra complication involved (words to that effect anyway).

I must say though, that I always found it very interesting but it still needs to be proven, so I will watch with interest to see it being turned into metal!

[wobbly]

" 132? That's houwge ", no its not in relation to the stroke used.
All Jap 250 MX singles now use a stroke of 72 and if you apply the usual ratio of 2:1 the rod should be in the 140 - 145 range.
None do, the 130 option rod for the one year of YZ250 is pretty much the longest.
The most common size for these engines is 125 C to C, and is really way too short.

[Dutch Fisher]

Absolutely typical failure of a W big end cage - this is exactly why they have changed to "proper " racing flat outer faces
with just slots to guide the needles.
In the W design only the very outside edge of the cage is supported ( and wearing ) on the inside of the rod bore, once the silver has gone
from this area then lubrication failure follows directly behind.
Simple copper coated washers and big ends are shit - a failure waiting to occur.
You run Meth - and of course you wash the engine thru with petroil after every startup ?
If you dont the Meth on the bearing surfaces absorbs moisture - it forms rust, then it goes bang.

The bearing size is non standard, none of the major factories list it, 25/32 is the norm.
25 mm solid pins are available in 60.5 and 64mm cheap as chips off the shelf.
EN36B is a better material, it remains more ductile in the core after case hardening,but the costs of grinding and heat treating a one of pin
are a waste of time.



Wob are you able to get PEEK coated cages ex-stock or do have to get copper/silver cages de-plated and sent to a specialist?

Contact names either way?

[J.A.W.]

AFAIR, KX 500 rod is ~145mm C-to-C,
but I'd suggest doing a search on the 'Hot Rods' site - for a suitable dimensional candidate..
Maybe there's a marine/snow craft application that would fit..

[tdc211]

if you are happy to share, please post pictures of your cylinder work.
I have bought an aftermarket 50mm bore Derbi cylinder kit, I'm shocked at how much porting work it requires. This cylinder will also require epoxy to both inner and outer transfer ducts.

here you go.
Epoxy has never come out.

[husaberg]

" 132? That's houwge ", no its not in relation to the stroke used.
All Jap 250 MX singles now use a stroke of 72 and if you apply the usual ratio of 2:1 the rod should be in the 140 - 145 range.
None do, the 130 option rod for the one year of YZ250 is pretty much the longest.
The most common size for these engines is 125 C to C, and is really way too short.


AFAIR, KX 500 rod is ~145mm C-to-C,
but I'd suggest doing a search on the 'Hot Rods' site - for a suitable dimensional candidate..
Maybe there's a marine/snow craft application that would fit..

Lucky enough there is the 500 rods that suit most of the 250's
I was pretty surprised at how long the Maico rods were but so were the 500's
MODEL LENGTH S E EYE WIDTH C/PIN DIA C/PIN LENGTH
MAICO 250 (EARLY) 125.00 18/22 16.00 25 58.50 93.7309
MAICO 250 (LATER MODELS) 132.00 18/22 17.00 25 57.00 93.7310
MAICO 400/440/490 137.00 18/22 17.00 25 64.00 93.7410
MAICO 490 (LATEMODEL) 137.00 18/22 20.00 25 67.00

I have found a few ultra long rods for the 250 sizes to follow.
Click on it 3 times
315144

[manolis]

Hello WilDun.

The linear mechanism was proposed before 1900 (steam engines, internal combustion engines).

If you remove the inertia loads from the gear-wheels (they increase with revs square) you have a way more reliable mechanism.
How?
By introducing proper counterweights on the rotating / revolving shaft (that one with the small gearwheel), as in the drawings.

And if you use proper materials, width of gearwheels and surface hardening, the mechanism can be as reliable as necessary (by the way, the load capacity increases a lot when an internal gearwheel is meshed with an external gearwheel: think of the shape of the cooperating surfaces).

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

[manolis]

Hello Husaberg.

You write:
“The rotary valve prototype is interesting not unlike the Coates and the Aussie (Deane) only done differently.
The prototype engine is fashioned/fabricated together in the manner of the Autounion f1 engines. Neat»

I don’t know what the Aussie (Deane) rotary valve is. If you mean the F1 Bishop / Cross rotary valve design, I know it. If you mean something else, please let me know.

The Coates spherical rotary valve and the Bishop rotary valve are substantially different than the PatRoVa.

There is no similarity with Coates, at all.


Quote from http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/unusualICeng/RotaryValveIC/RotaryValveIC.htm

For almost all its history, the preferred valve for the Internal Combustion engine has been the poppet type. (the etymology of the word "poppet" is an interesting study in itself, but a bit off-topic) There are good reasons for this; see the Appendix on the advantages of the poppet valve.

However, many inventors have been attracted by the apparent simplicity and the uniform motion of rotary valves of one kind or another. There is also the tempting prospect of being able to run on inferior fuels because there was no hot exhaust valve always present in the cylinder to trigger pre-ignition. However, as with both steam and IC rotary engines, the simplicity was more apparent than real, and the engineering problems were daunting.

The basic problem, is that the pressures in the cylinder of an internal combustion engine are high, due to both the compression stroke and the explosion of the fuel-air mixture. This produces large forces on the valve system, however it is contrived; the beauty of the poppet valve is that such forces simply push it harder against its seat, and have no effect at all on the valve-actuating mechanism.

However, the geometry of rotary valve systems is inherently different; in the Aspin concept below, the vertical valve cone is pushed up axially against the cylinder head, while the horizontal Cross valve is pressed up against the top half of the bearing surfaces. In both cases this can cause excessive friction and seizure, the root of the problem being that enormous forces are acting on the valve while it is moving.

End of quote


The abovementioned problem of the rotary valves is also a problem of the Coates

http://www.coatesengine.com/uploads/7/1/4/1/7141191/5327688.jpg?1305294237

and of the Bishop

http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimages/623133/bishop%20rotary%20valve.jpg

designs: the higher the pressure into the cylinder (imagine a heavily supercharged engine, or the rotary valve during a short knocking period), the more the valve is pressed up against the cylinder head.

Think:
Does the PatRoVa rotary valve solve this long existing problem?

I say yes.

If you just leave the PatRoVa rotary valve on the cylinder head without any support by bearings, the valve stays there – unsupported – no matter how much pressure you put into the cylinder:

http://www.pattakon.com/PatRoVa/PatRoVa_photo3.jpg


There are other advantages, too:

For instance, the Coates design has a hot exhaust port on the cylinder head (sealed by the red hot exhaust spherical rotary valve) and a cold intake port (sealed by the intake spherical rotary valve). This limits the compression ratio.

For instance, any leakage of compressed gas from the Coates exhaust port, goes to the exhaust, while any leakage of the PatRoVa is recycled and burns during the next combustion.

For instance, you can easily lift the PatRoVa rotary valve a few mm to change the timing / overlap.


Thoughts?
Objections?

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

[husaberg]

Hello Husaberg.

You write:
“The rotary valve prototype is interesting not unlike the Coates and the Aussie (Deane) only done differently.
The prototype engine is fashioned/fabricated together in the manner of the Autounion f1 engines. Neat»

I don’t know what the Aussie (Deane) rotary valve is. If you mean the F1 Bishop / Cross rotary valve design, I know it. If you mean something else, please let me know.

The Coates spherical rotary valve and the Bishop rotary valve are substantially different than the PatRoVa.

Quote from http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/unusualICeng/RotaryValveIC/RotaryValveIC.htm
For almost all its history, the preferred valve for the Internal Combustion engine has been the poppet type. (the etymology of the word "poppet" is an interesting study in itself, but a bit off-topic) There are good reasons for this; see the Appendix on the advantages of the poppet valve.
However, many inventors have been attracted by the apparent simplicity and the uniform motion of rotary valves of one kind or another. There is also the tempting prospect of being able to run on inferior fuels because there was no hot exhaust valve always present in the cylinder to trigger pre-ignition. However, as with both steam and IC rotary engines, the simplicity was more apparent than real, and the engineering problems were daunting.
The basic problem, is that the pressures in the cylinder of an internal combustion engine are high, due to both the compression stroke and the explosion of the fuel-air mixture. This produces large forces on the valve system, however it is contrived; the beauty of the poppet valve is that such forces simply push it harder against its seat, and have no effect at all on the valve-actuating mechanism.

However, the geometry of rotary valve systems is inherently different; in the Aspin concept below, the vertical valve cone is pushed up axially against the cylinder head, while the horizontal Cross valve is pressed up against the top half of the bearing surfaces. In both cases this can cause excessive friction and seizure, the root of the problem being that enormous forces are acting on the valve while it is moving.
End of quote


The abovementioned problem of the rotary valves is also a problem of the Coates


and of the Bishop


designs: the higher the pressure into the cylinder (imagine a heavily supercharged engine, or the rotary valve during ), the more the valve is pressed up against the cylinder head.

Think:
Does the PatRoVa rotary valve solve this long existing problem?

I say yes.

If you just leave the PatRoVa rotary valve on the cylinder head without any support by bearings, the valve stays there – unsupported – no matter how much pressure you put into the cylinder:



There are other advantages, too:

For instance, the Coates design has a hot exhaust port on the cylinder head (sealed by the red hot exhaust spherical rotary valve) and a cold intake port (sealed by the intake spherical rotary valve). This limits the compression ratio.

For instance, any leakage of compressed gas from the Coates exhaust port, goes to the exhaust, while any leakage of the PatRoVa is recycled and burns during the next combustion.

For instance, you can easily erase the PatRoVa rotary valve a few mm to change the timing / overlap.


Thoughts?
Objections?

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos
I might have to have another look but I was referring to it being similar in that it was a rotary valve EX.
The Deane Rotary Valve is here.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/171300-Oddball-engines-and-prototypes


FLETCHER TWO-STROKE

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~pattle/nacc/arc0563.htm

314340 314342
314341
The unusual components showing the cylinder head and static "piston",
the mobile ported sleeve and the cylinder barrel proper.
I like this one it might not work that well but it is odd.

Barr and Stroud this article was written in 1990
314186 314187
Remember click on them about 3 times.

<iframe width="554" height="310" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/EJcxpFTFJPA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="554" height="310" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/E_m784s3_z0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The Coates design I first seen in the 1990's they had claimed to have the heat licked with ceramics, I am picking they didn't.
Funny enough it was the exact pic they still use

[WilDun]

Hello WilDun.

The linear mechanism was proposed before 1900 (steam engines, internal combustion engines).

If you remove the inertia loads from the gear-wheels (they increase with revs square) you have a way more reliable mechanism.
How?
By introducing proper counterweights on the rotating / revolving shaft (that one with the small gearwheel), as in the drawings.

And if you use proper materials, width of gearwheels and surface hardening, the mechanism can be as reliable as necessary (by the way, the load capacity increases a lot when an internal gearwheel is meshed with an external gearwheel: think of the shape of the cooperating surfaces).

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos



Manolis,
I must point out that Doug Hele at the time, was working for a company who were on the "slippery slope" and not prepared to put much (any) money into developing something new, so he could be forgiven for saying what he did say! - this was just a question which was fired at him by a reporter and didn't really have much significance at the time.
I was actually very interested and tried to figure out why he didn't consider it, but now I realise why, (no money).

The gearing does also remind me of the gearing as used in the Wankel engine and that never seems to give much trouble.

I'm sure that today you already realize just how difficult it would be to coax the 'powers that be' to abandon their deeply entrenched ideas and faith in the conventional four stroke engine! and even though you may have a superior product - it's not just an engineering problem, it's also a marketing problem, and psychology to win people over also comes into play here!

Really I'm just an interested bystander and no fantastic engineer, so I can't argue much with you on the subject but I must say that it does interest me a lot and I would be very keen indeed to see it work.

[J.A.W.]

Manolis has to get Mark Marquez into his flying machine..

Its about the money.. & the hype.. sadly..

As we all know.. 2-strokes are the inherently superior motorcycle race-mill..
..but for a personal flyer such as Manolis proposes, the 2T mill - its really indisputable..

[manolis]

Hello WilDun

You write:
“The gearing does also remind me of the gearing as used in the Wankel engine and that never seems to give much trouble.”

The two gearings (in the Harmonic engine and in the Wankel Rotary engine) are loaded in a substantially different way.

In the harmonic the meshed teeth of the ring gearwheel and of the revolving/rotating gearwheel finally receive the combustion force acting on the piston.

In the Wankel Rotary the combustion force loads directly the eccentric pin of the power-shaft. The gearwheels are there to synchronize the rotor with the power-shaft (crankshaft).

The gearing of the Wankel Rotary is heavily loaded only during a sudden change of the revs (suppose you brake with the engine: all the energy necessary to increase the angular velocity of the heavy rotor about its eccentric pin of the power-shaft comes from the gearing).


By the way, there are several projects in the http://www.pattakon.com web site.

I will be glad to explain everything.

For instance, and since the Wankel Rotary engine was mentioned, take a look at the PatRE project at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonRotary.htm

http://www.pattakon.com/rotary/PatRE.gif

It is a valve-less 4-stroke engine with freer breathing than the Wankel Rotary.
It has four combustions per rotation while the Wankel has one combustion per rotor per power-shaft rotation.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

[husaberg]

Hello WilDun

You write:
“The gearing does also remind me of the gearing as used in the Wankel engine and that never seems to give much trouble.”

The two gearings (in the Harmonic engine and in the Wankel Rotary engine) are loaded in a substantially different way.

In the harmonic the meshed teeth of the ring gearwheel and of the revolving/rotating gearwheel finally receive the combustion force acting on the piston.

In the Wankel Rotary the combustion force loads directly the eccentric pin of the power-shaft. The gearwheels are there to synchronize the rotor with the power-shaft (crankshaft).

The gearing of the Wankel Rotary is heavily loaded only during a sudden change of the revs (suppose you brake with the engine: all the energy necessary to increase the angular velocity of the heavy rotor about its eccentric pin of the power-shaft comes from the gearing).


By the way, there are several projects in the http://www.pattakon.com web site.



I will be glad to explain everything.

For instance, and since the Wankel Rotary engine was mentioned, take a look at the PatRE project at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonRotary.htm

http://www.pattakon.com/rotary/PatRE.gif

It is a valve-less 4-stroke engine with freer breathing than the Wankel Rotary.
It has four combustions per rotation while the Wankel has one combustion per rotor per power-shaft rotation.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos
That one reminds me of the Prop/rotar set up of the fletner.
http://www.unicopter.com/FlettnerPrincipalAssy.jpg

[manolis]

Hello Husaberg.

Yes, it seems like the Flettner design (and the Kaman design) but the PatRE needs no gearwheels (not one).

The synchronization is a "built in" affair.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

[WilDun]

It is a valve-less 4-stroke engine with freer breathing than the Wankel Rotary.
It has four combustions per rotation while the Wankel has one combustion per rotor per power-shaft rotation.


I think that engine must be inspired by the "cat and mouse" type engines many of which have been developed, but never made it. However, this was also the case with "wobble plate" axial engines and now Duke Engines here (In new Zealand) have developed a seemingly very successful engine using wobble plate principle, complete with sliding valve technology.
So (as with the Pattakon,) they have persevered with what appeared to be a failed idea, until they eventually came up with one that works very well!
- but as I said before, next big hurdle is to change a deeply entrenched mindset!

[husaberg]

Hello Husaberg.

Yes, it seems like the Flettner design (and the Kaman design) but the PatRE needs no gearwheels (not one).

The synchronization is a "built in" affair.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

Yes I realise, it was just the shape.
Just how many engine designs do you have on the go at the moment?

[Lightbulb]

There was a cat mouse engine built in Rotorua in the late 90's. It did not work because even though it made good compression there was an error in the inlet exhaust overlap. They had spent a lot of money making it. It was not the sealing of the chambers or the fancy gear box that let them down.
Here is Don's patent on the gearbox mechanism. I thought it was very clever indeed. I have not seen or heard of Don for a very long time.
https://www.google.com.ar/patents/US5676534

I like the simplicity of using the advance retard of a universal joint to control the relative piston motions.

Are you going to have the spark plug fire through a slot in the housing instead of just a big hole that loses cylinder pressure as the seal passes over ?

I see in a more recent patent on a scissor engine, one of their claims is that engine design/format lends itself to be able to make better use of HCCI technologies. Certainly in early days of H2 engine development, it was looking like a Wankel engine was better suited to the H2 than a conventional piston engine.
Neil

[manolis]

Hello Husaberg.

You write:
"Just how many engine designs do you have on the go at the moment?"


We try to have one or more demonstration prototype for each project (however there are pattakon projects without working prototypes, yet, like the PatMar, the PatPortLess, the Desmodromic VVA,the Variable Compression Ratio (PatHead VCR), the Constant Velocity Joint etc ).

Here are some of the prototypes in action:

Honda VVA-roller, road test:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zzW8YkReLUI

OPRE Diesel engine:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd0A0yyC7DUU

PatOP diesel:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ByEgfTTq1I

PatRoVa 4-stroke:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q-EGdeS0ws


Talking for the PatRoVa Rotary Valve,
think the power increase and the rev limit of a Ducati Panigale wherein the Desmodromic cylinder heads are replaced by PatRoVa rotary valve cylinder heads (which are also "desmodromic" since they don't need restoring springs) and the pistons are replaced by others having flat (without pockets) crowns.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

[manolis]

Hello Neil.

It is a cat-and-mouse rotary engine.

You write:
"Are you going to have the spark plug fire through a slot in the housing instead of just a big hole that loses cylinder pressure as the seal passes over ?"

Both ways can be used.

Imagine a ringless RC/ Model PatRE Rotary engine (for toys, small drons etc).

Instead of a spark plug it can run with a glow plug in a hole / cavity / chamber arranged so that after the ignition of the charge it is covered by the "following" rotor surface.

The gas in the hole / cavity / chamber remains active (radicals?) until the next quantity of charge to come in contact with it.


Besides its simplicity and symmetry (support at both sides, no gearwheels etc) what I like in this engine is also its 4-stroke free breathing; the size of the intake and exhaust ports can be extreme as compared to the capacity of each chamber.
Another thing I like is its ability to run on a Miller cycle (at substyantially lower pressures and temperatures): all you have to do is to extend the intake port as necessary.


Question:
The color in the videos of my last post is changed (the flames are not cyan / blue).
I used the (((http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOUq4Z6R7xI)))
Is there another way?

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

[Lef16]

Hello again,
What's the technique for spreading the max torque/max power rpm as wide as possible by exhaust?
Do the typical ~32% header and ~67 diffuser lengths apply here?
I'm talking about a CVT drag bike.

[Muciek]

Hello again,
What's the technique for spreading the max torque/max power rpm as wide as possible by exhaust?
Do the typical ~32% header and ~67 diffuser lengths apply here?
I'm talking about a CVT drag bike.


The CPI cylinder is hamstrung by the 102 bore centres of the RD/RZ cases, the WR has super swoopy transfer ducts by comparison.
That later pipe is better, but the header is still too shallow, and the basic design is derived from a full noise road racing type pipe.
To get a wider range the final diffuser needs to be the steepest, as having the steep mid diffuser helps to put the max BDC Ex port depression
earlier in the cycle - increasing the overev power.
Not what you want in the application.




Last time You have asked same question ;)

[peewee]

The YZ250 looks like a great option. Slightly wider big end and the bike was rated at 48hp so this should work well.

I'll look into that.

The small end is 23 compared to the Maico 22 but I'm sure I can find a bearing for this.

Thanks again.


whats the hole diam in the crank cheek and piston, also whats the cylinder bore size and stroke ? no gaurantee but i might be able to help if i know this stuff as ive put honda rods in ktm's and ktm rods in yamahas so i have a bit of experience with mix and matching parts

[karter444]

would the advantage gained by changing from a 125 long rod to say a 145 long rod outway the disadvantage of the increase in crankcase volume from having to lift the barrel up 20 mm

[adegnes]

would the advantage gained by changing from a 125 long rod to say a 145 long rod outway the disadvantage of the increase in crankcase volume from having to lift the barrel up 20 mm

On what do you base the assumption that the increased cc volume will be a disadvantage?

[karter444]

What do you base the assumption that the increased cc volume will be a disadvantage on?
Im not sure just presumed from previous posts that crankcase comp should be around 1.35:1 [I think ]raising the barrel 20 mm will obviously increase case volume and therefore reduce case comp
this may or may not be that important Im don't know

[husaberg]

On what do you base the assumption that the increased cc volume will be a disadvantage?


Im not sure just presumed from previous posts that crankcase comp should be around 1.35:1 [I think ]raising the barrel 20 mm will obviously increase case volume and therefore reduce case comp
this may or may not be that important Im don't know

Be interesting to say what Mr Overmars says now.

But simply put, you can't get a big disk valve and decent swooping transfers and a short big inlet port into a disk valve 125 without having a conrod over 115mm.
Jan also reported in any engine he ever tested he never had any negative power effects from a longer rod only positives
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/search.php?searchid=10529454
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/search.php?searchid=10529413

Bear in Minmd the ryger may have changed all this.
There is also some potential benefits from a shorter rod in both packaging and in a reed valve engine.

[adegnes]

Im not sure just presumed from previous posts that crankcase comp should be around 1.35:1 [I think ]raising the barrel 20 mm will obviously increase case volume and therefore reduce case comp
this may or may not be that important Im don't know

My sims always show more power with less cc volume - probable reasons are unsophisticated pipe work and my general lack of experience/skill.
What I've noticed(or think I have) is that steeper cones like more volume.

[Lightbulb]

Not sure if this is the right place, I am sure the mod can move it if it isn't.
Anyway, so I ran my engine with a bowl shape head that is used by Irvine engines in their 2.5cc speed engines, but changed to run the taper seating Nelson Dodge glowbee plug. I got a base line with a test prop and a pipe. Then turned down the head and shrank a copper ring into the head inert at the diameter of the squish band and re ran the engine but 2 hours latter 6.30pm . It had a 600 rpm increase, from 40200 to 40800 rpm, that is a 4.5 % power increase. The piston has a light honey colour, the engine was very easy to tune and actually behaved like it was over compressed even though I set the head higher by 0.001 inch. The squish area has a colour change, while the combustion ball area seemed to be not showing any colour or heat build up what so ever. I gave it 2 runs and normally would expect to some golden colour in the chamber. I think on the next head I will try a smaller diameter of copper insert. I get the impression that the copper is not only drawing heat from the squish area,but also drawing heat from the bowl area.
But this does not explain why it seemed to be behaving like an over compressed engine, when in fact it should have been behaving like an under compressed engine. More testing will be required for sure but am encouraged from the results. It is not often that 4.5% increase is seen on an already fairly well developed platform.

[Ocean1]

Not sure if this is the right place, I am sure the mod can move it if it isn't.
Anyway, so I ran my engine with a bowl shape head that is used by Irvine engines in their 2.5cc speed engines, but changed to run the taper seating Nelson Dodge glowbee plug. I got a base line with a test prop and a pipe. Then turned down the head and shrank a copper ring into the head inert at the diameter of the squish band and re ran the engine but 2 hours latter 6.30pm . It had a 600 rpm increase, from 40200 to 40800 rpm, that is a 4.5 % power increase. The piston has a light honey colour, the engine was very easy to tune and actually behaved like it was over compressed even though I set the head higher by 0.001 inch. The squish area has a colour change, while the combustion ball area seemed to be not showing any colour or heat build up what so ever. I gave it 2 runs and normally would expect to some golden colour in the chamber. I think on the next head I will try a smaller diameter of copper insert. I get the impression that the copper is not only drawing heat from the squish area,but also drawing heat from the bowl area.
But this does not explain why it seemed to be behaving like an over compressed engine, when in fact it should have been behaving like an under compressed engine. More testing will be required for sure but am encouraged from the results. It is not often that 4.5% increase is seen on an already fairly well developed platform.

Now where was I reading the other day that one of the old sleeve valve aero engines output increased dramatically with a change to a copper / chrome alloy head? Oddball engines somewhere I think...

[TZ350]

Now where was I reading the other day that one of the old sleeve valve aero engines output increased dramatically with a change to a copper / chrome alloy head? ...

Maybe here:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Centaurus The cylinder heads had an indentation very much like an inverted top hat, which of course was successfully finned but it was difficult to get air straight down into this hollow to adequately cool the head. During the development stage the engineers at Bristol Aeroplane contacted ICI (Metal Division), Birmingham to enquire whether a copper chromium alloy would have sufficient high temperature strength and higher thermal conductivity to be used for this purpose. Tests successfully concluded that with the same volume of cylinder the use of these modified heads enabled the horsepower per cylinder to be raised from 110hp to 220hp

315296

[TZ350]

315297The squish area has a colour change, while the combustion ball area seemed to be not showing any colour or heat build up what so ever..... I get the impression that the copper is not only drawing heat from the squish area,but also drawing heat from the bowl area..... More testing will be required for sure but am encouraged from the results. It is not often that 4.5% increase is seen on an already fairly well developed platform.

Very interesting that you recorded a power increase with only the copper mod. I look forward to hearing more as your development and tests continue.

315305

This is my copper squish-head gasket-finn thing.

315303315304

For me the whole point of the copper fin was to improve waste heat rejection from the combustion chamber shell.

315302

I tried copper metal spraying a head but the super heat reflecting polished copper in the combustion chamber oxidised black. I tried car polish in an effort to keep it shiney, helped a little bit. Maybe next time to reflect the combustion heat I will try a very thin layer of chrome (suggested by Frits) over the copper in the combustion chamber area.

The copper fins get to hot to touch, so they are certainly drawing heat out of the engine.

315298

I am sure the copper has helped with engine cooling and subsequent power development.

[jasonu]

Very interesting that you recorded a power increase with only the copper mod. I look forward to hearing more as your development and tests continue.

315305

This is my copper squish-head gasket-finn thing.

315303315304

For me the whole point of the copper fin was to improve waste heat rejection from the combustion chamber shell.

315302

I tried copper metal spraying a head but the super heat reflecting polished copper in the combustion chamber oxidised black. I tried car polish in an effort to keep it shiney, helped a little bit. Maybe next time to reflect the combustion heat I will try a very thin layer of chrome (suggested by Frits) over the copper in the combustion chamber area.

The copper fins get to hot to touch, so they are certainly drawing heat out of the engine.

315298

I am sure the copper has helped with engine cooling and subsequent power development.

What ever happened to Thomas?

[TZ350]

What ever happened to Thomas?

Sadly the bulk of our electrical work dried up when the two major high pressure gas compression companies here were brought up and moved to China.

Thomas went onto other things, he still calls in from time to time.

315315

I still have a spare Cat Gas V12 Turbo engine here for driving a compressor or generator if you wan't one. We could package it for you.

Gas packages have shipped out of NZ to all around the world, Sweden, South America, Nigeria, Indonesia, Bangladesh, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, unfortunately the Americans have a bad habit of bombing the customers.

[manolis]

Sleeve-valves vs Opposed Pistons

Hello.

I was looking at this:

http://wktodd.webspace.virginmedia.com/animations/wpimages/RR%20Crecy.gif

arrangement of Rolls-Royce Crecy 2-stroke as a solution for modern 2-strokes.

The sleeve valves of R-R Crecy move at double frequency than the sleeve valves of the Bristol Radials 4-strokes:

http://www.williammaloney.com/aviation/RCAFRoyalCanadianAirForceMuseum/AircraftEngines/images/11BristolHercules734.jpg

While the angular oscillation of the Bristol sleeve valves about their cylinder axes offers a significant functional advantage (maximization of the valve-time-area), this is not the case for the Crecy 2-strokes sleeve valves wherein the angular oscillation just increases the inertia loads and the friction.

In both cases it is required a strange connection between the sleeve valve and its actuator.

In both cases (R-R Crecy and Bristol sleeve) the sleeve valve is supported asymmetrically causing flexing and increasing the friction.

While the sealing of the combustion chamber of the Bristol sleeve valve engine is based on normal rings on the moving piston and on the stationary “piston”, in the Crecy R-R design the sealing of the top side of the combustion chamber is based on the tight fit of the sleeve valve top-end with the cylinder.


A better solution seems this:

http://www.pattakon.com/Sleeve/Uniflow_sleeve.jpg

It is from a prototype sleeve valve two-stroke engine made by Uniflow (F1 Technical Forum).

As compared to Crecy sleeve valve, it is symmetrically supported by a pair of auxiliary side-connecting rods on two slim crankpins of small eccentricity, avoiding the angular oscillation about the cylinder axis.

A common problem with the R-R Crecy is the scavenging efficiency of the top part of the combustion chamber.
Even in the giant Marine two strokes (wherein the stroke is several times bigger than the bore) a core of residual hot gas remains along / around the axis of the cylinder (in this case the exhaust is at the opposite end of the cylinder and not in the middle of the cylinder).

A common problem is also the need for long stroke to bore ratios to put the transfer and exhaust ports away from each other (to avoid short circuit). The small distance of the transfer port from the top of the above sleeve valve shows the problem.


A better solution seems this design:

http://www.pattakon.com/Sleeve/Sleeve3.gif

http://www.pattakon.com/Sleeve/Sleeve3_STE.gif

At http://www.pattakon.com/Sleeve/Sleeve3.gif amd http://www.pattakon.com/Sleeve/Sleeve3_STE.gif are the above animations at full size.

For windows users the "exe" program at http://www.pattakon.com/Sleeve/Sleeve2.exe may be interesting.

(the second animation can be seen stereoscopically according the instructions at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonStereoscopy.htm )

Besides the simple actuation of the sleeve valve (Uniflow), it also offers the sealing quality of the Bristol sleeve valve design wherein a stationary piston at the top of the cylinder has piston rings sliding on the sleeve valve. No tight fit between the sleeve valve and the cylinder is required.

With the exhaust ports at the top of the cylinder, the scavenging is more efficient (fewer residual gas, lower cycle temperatures).

It seems a good solution.
But, as in the previous cases, it needs a long piston stroke.
A long piston stroke means heavier inertia loads, more friction, lower rev limit and less power.

A common disadvantage in all previous cases is the increase of the inertia loads and of the vibrations (the heavy sleeve valve reciprocates in synchronization with the piston; the first order inertia force of the reciprocating piston adds with the first order inertia force from the reciprocating sleeve valve). A single cylinder would vibrate a lot more than a conventional single cylinder 2-stroke (same piston, same connecting rod, same stroke, same rpm).


A better solution is to put in motion the immovable piston of the last arrangement.
This is what the Junkers-Doxford does:

http://www.pattakon.com/patop/US1679976.gif

Instead of using the side connecting rods for the sleeve valve, now the side connecting rods are used for the top piston.

The sleeve valve is eliminated together with the associated friction; the lubricant consumption reduces; the friction reduces (two pistons moving at half stroke).

The first order inertia forces are fully balanced.


A better solution is the OPOC (Opposed Piston, Opposed Cylinder engine) of Ecomotors (Bill Gates is one of their famous investors): two Junkers-Dosford share the same crankshaft for the sake of full balance:

http://www.pattakon.com/patpoc/OPOC_variable_capacity.jpg


A better solution is the PatPOC engine:

http://www.pattakon.com/patpoc/PatPOC_crosshead.gif

http://www.pattakon.com/patpoc/PatPOC_small2.gif

(more at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonPatPOC.htm ; spot on the short crankshaft: the crankpins can be inside the cylinder footprint).


A better solution is also the PatOP engine:

http://www.pattakon.com/patop/patop4.jpg

http://www.pattakon.com/patop/PatOPbw.gif

http://www.pattakon.com/patop/PatOPpro2.jpg

(more at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonPatOP.htm )

Among others it reduces the overall height of the engine, it takes the thrust loads on surfaces rid of ports, it has “four-stroke-like” lubrication, it has built-in piston-type scavenging pump etc.
The “pulling rod” architecture of the PatOP increases substantially the piston dwell around the combustion dead center (think what this means for a high revving Diesel)

Worth to mention that the main bearings of the crankshaft of all abovementioned Opposed Piston engines can run unloaded (think why); theoretically you can hold by your hands the crankshaft at operation.


Thoughts?
Objections?

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

[Sketchy_Racer]

I took a video of a couple of laps at manfeild on board the NSR300. It's starting to really get along now, just need to get it to go around the bends!!

Anyway I enjoyed watching/listening to this so I thought I would share for anyone interested.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/bmQl5_T-Jz0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Enjoy

-Sketchy

[husaberg]

I took a video of a couple of laps at manfeild on board the NSR300. It's starting to really get along now, just need to get it to go around the bends!!

Anyway I enjoyed watching/listening to this so I thought I would share for anyone interested.



Enjoy

-Sketchy

Just resizing it so I can see the speed

<iframe width="1060" height="715" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/bmQl5_T-Jz0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

buggered if I can make it out, is it a water temp below the revs?

[J.A.W.]

@ Manolis, thanks for the interesting post..

FWIW, LJK Setright wrote a few books, inc' "Some Unusual Engines"..

On P.62 - he commented on the British sleeve valve aero mills..

"It was Bristol who really put sleeves on the map... Bristol ran one of their 6.5in sleeves up to 8,000rev/min
in a single-cylinder test engine without anything going awry,
& ...the Napier Sabre could blip up & down the rev-counter scale like a car engine."

& Frank Halford designed the Napier Sabre as being capable of running - as a 2-Stroke..

[Sketchy_Racer]

Just resizing it so I can see the speed

buggered if I can make it out, is it a water temp below the revs?

Haha, Battery Voltage, running total loss.

Water temp is supposed to be next to that, but I had it on the wrong sensor :sleep:

[husaberg]

Haha, Battery Voltage, running total loss.

Water temp is supposed to be next to that, but I had it on the wrong sensor :sleep:

Hook up the speedo as well next time would Ya:2thumbsup
I am guessing the reason we could not see the other 2 strokes as they were behind you?
Seems to get around the corners pretty good to me.

[jasonu]

Sadly the bulk of our electrical work dried up when the two major high pressure gas compression companies here were brought up and moved to China.

Thomas went onto other things, he still calls in from time to time.

315315

I still have a spare Cat Gas V12 Turbo engine here for driving a compressor or generator if you wan't one. We could package it for you.

Gas packages have shipped out of NZ to all around the world, Sweden, South America, Nigeria, Indonesia, Bangladesh, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, unfortunately some of the customers have a bad habit od poking the bear and get the shit bombed out of themselves for their mistake...

Fixed it for you...

[J.A.W.]

Bear?
Huh?

That's a Ruskie thang - aint it?

The ol' bald eagle-boys.. use predator drones, a CVN airstrike, or a full-on B-52 bombtruck pounding, depending on scale..
Too bloody bad about the "co-lateral damage" - the Chinese will sell you something to make it good.., if you can pay..

FYI, if you want a shock, look at the price of methanol - made from Kiwi gas - at a plant built & paid for by Kiwi tax-payers..

See the Methanex site..

~40 cents a litre.. not that you can buy it - at that price..

[wobbly]

So two things I dont get from the video.
Why are you happy to rev the tits off it to 11700 - 11900,when down-changing and at the end of the straight in 6th gear, but every
gear-change is done at 11200.
This would indicate that the overall final drive ratio is way off - being way too short geared, or you are continually short shifting for no reason.
Its a well proven fact that reving a race engine to just past it power peak, so that you drop back closest to peak torque thru every gear change is by far the fastest technique.
So in the lower gears, with a greater rev drop per change, you should be overeving even more.

The other is the 11.8V given to the Ignitech from the total loss system.
This means either the battery is too small to supply sufficient current to the ignition and this is dragging down the volts,or the battery was 1/2 flat to begin with.
The spark power supplied by the ECU is proportional to the applied voltage, and going from the original RS250 alternator charging system that would be supplying 14.2V to the
ignition is loosing a heap of simply available ignition power - again for no good reason I can see.
Helpful criticism I hope.

[Sketchy_Racer]

So two things I dont get from the video.
Why are you happy to rev the tits off it to 11700 - 11900,when down-changing and at the end of the straight in 6th gear, but every
gear-change is done at 11200.
This would indicate that the overall final drive ratio is way off - being way too short geared, or you are continually short shifting for no reason.
Its a well proven fact that reving a race engine to just past it power peak, so that you drop back closest to peak torque thru every gear change is by far the fastest technique.
So in the lower gears, with a greater rev drop per change, you should be overeving even more.

The other is the 11.8V given to the Ignitech from the total loss system.
This means either the battery is too small to supply sufficient current to the ignition and this is dragging down the volts,or the battery was 1/2 flat to begin with.
The spark power supplied by the ECU is proportional to the applied voltage, and going from the original RS250 alternator charging system that would be supplying 14.2V to the
ignition is loosing a heap of simply available ignition power - again for no good reason I can see.
Helpful criticism I hope.

Hi Wob,

Yep you got it, final drive is off by a bit. I'm happy to have it rev out a little bit at the end of the straight provided it gives good drive off the turn. Unfortunately due to my ignorance I shortened my chain to run a 15-39 gearing combo and can't go any smaller in the rear sprocket due to clearances, however I didn't have any chain links to lengthen it so I could run a 16-41 combo which I think would have been about right.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to what that dash says, as you can see it is so slow to respond to RPM change it's quite pointless, and the quick shifter interferes with the reading as it is measuring off the ignition lead.

Voltage wise, to be honest I would have thought that the voltage regulator inside the Ignitech would take care of that, unless it's internal wiring is feeding the battery direct to the charging caps, I'm not sure how they have it working on the inside. DC-CDI's usually have a DC-DC converters to get the voltage up to working output voltage to charge the caps, in this configuration then the as long as the input voltage is within range then it'll just suck a little more current to get the voltage step it needs?

From the Ignitech site

"Supply voltage B+12 V input. Supply voltage must be within the range from 8 to 18 V. Within this range, the ignition unit is able to optimally control all
processes. The ignition unit will be switched off if voltage decreases below 8 V or exceeds 18 V"


I did run it on the dyno in this exact configuration didn't notice any power loss but that little battery is about to be replaced with either a Shorai or Ultrabatt which will help immensely with holding constant voltage over a run.

Criticism always welcome!

[J.A.W.]

He's likely trying to ride it.. too much like a porky 600/4.. that's gutless below 10 grand..

[F5 Dave]

looks like its going well Glen. I'm just surprised anything was in front of you. Pesky mixed sessions?

[Flettner]

Manolis, hi, good to see you are here and interested in the sleeve design. I had kind of given up since the Ryger thing came out but because the Ryger design information is is still far off being released ( "shortly" , six months ago) I'm back on the sleeve case, as it were.
The RR sleeve twostroke was tried with rings in the head as you have shown but it suffered thermal issues so they went back to Harry Riccardo's original (tested) design with the open ended sleeve. This sleeve is not a tight fit, in fact Harry said looser the better so long as it was not too loose to start (not enough compression). When things heat up the sleeve expands untill it starts transfering heat to the cylinder wall at which point it contracts untill it finds a happy heat transfer clearance, apparently.

Uniflow

[wobbly]

Glen, I think my point was more based around the fact that it revs out so well in 6th to near on 12,000, and thus you should be
doing this thru every gearchange as this will be alot faster , as you will drop back closer to peak torque - no matter what the final drive gearing is.

The Ignitech has no internal voltage "limiter ' except a failsafe detection circuit that shut it off at 18V +.
Thus as the input voltage rises so does the ionising voltage at the plug, and the "power " stored in the caps.
We spend ( or should ) big money on good plugs that make it much easyer for the CDI to fire a strong spark across rare earth electrodes, and using
a charging system ( be it RS250 or CR125 basically the same ) will hold the input at the much higher 14.2V, and then a small battery is fine.
The only way to increase the current draw ( and thus power in the gap ) is to use a very low primary resistance coil - such as RGV250/Aprilia RS250, or one with higher inductance.

[manolis]

Hello J.A.W.

You write:
“It was Bristol who really put sleeves on the map... Bristol ran one of their 6.5in sleeves up to 8,000rev/min
in a single-cylinder test engine without anything going awry,”

I suppose the Bristol single-cylinder was a 4-stroke.

In a 2-stroke sleeve-valve single-cylinder things are tougher because the inertia vibrations increase a lot.

The sleeve valve has a smaller, than the piston, stroke (say 40%) but it cannot help being heavy.
The sleeve valve reciprocates, more or less, in phase with the piston (in the animation, and in the “exe” program, the auxiliary crankpins are advances by only 10 degrees relative to the main crankpin; the resulting asymmetry between the transfer and exhaust is more than necessary).

Provided the balance webs of the crankshaft are optimized in each case,
when a conventional 2-stroke single-cylinder is modified to “sleeve-valve”, the vibrations will increase a lot.
It would be like replacing the piston of the original conventional by a two times heavier one.

A 2-stoke sleeve-valve needs a substantially longer stroke than a conventional 2-stroke (uniflow scavenging and short stroke do not fit), making things even tougher.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

[marsheng]

After a bit of help from Hasaberg I found a YZ250 rod was only 2 mm shorter than the Macio. The big end width is 20 on the YZ and 17 on the Maico. Is bigger better ? The YZ is supposed to be 48 HP.

I received my New ProX rod but there is quite a big difference in the wall thickness between the 2.

http://www.marshland.co.nz/ftp/MaicoBimota/Conrod.JPG

Is this an issue? I would have thought from a dynamic point of view the lighter the bigend the less the load on the pins however it makes it not quite as strong. However, the main strength will be required in compression which is the same for both rods.

I have put down the bigend failure to the oil slots not being radiused and hence they picked up on the rollers.

Lastly, what piston/crankshaft balance ratio is suggested and what to you normally weigh to make the bob weight?

Cheers Wallace.

[manolis]

Hello Uniflow.

You write:
“Manolis, hi, good to see you are here”

I expected more objections here (in this forum).


You write:
“This sleeve is not a tight fit, in fact Harry said looser the better so long as it was not too loose to start (not enough compression). When things heat up the sleeve expands untill it starts transfering heat to the cylinder wall at which point it contracts untill it finds a happy heat transfer clearance, apparently.”

The thin sleeve valve (2mm?), especially at its open top end, cannot help being flexible. If you put a high pressure inside it, it expands and its diameter increases.

Suppose you operate the engine at light load for several minutes.
The sleeve valve expands (due to the leakage of hot gas around its top end) until to touch gently the cylinder and to seal properly the combustion chamber.
The pressure during combustion is, say, 20 bar.

Suppose now the throttle turns suddenly wide open.
In the next cycle the combustion pressure increases to 50 bars.
The top end (more correctly the top external edge, which is hot and has the biggest diameter) of the sleeve valve abuts heavily on the cylinder (because it is flexible there and because it is loaded by the high pressure acting on a big inner surface of the sleeve valve).
The sealing is too good, but for several cycles the sleeve valve top end will be in contact with the cylinder (scuffing).


It is also the scavenging of the top cylinder. The short distance from the transfer ports to the top of your sleeve valve give the chance to a lot of mixture to escape to the exhaust (short circuit); the engine will operate with lots of residual gas (trapped in the top and around the core of the cylinder), even at full throttle.


It is also the vibrations / inertia loads issue (reply to J.A.W.) and the ability of the frame to hold the engine.



If all this trouble (new cylinder, sleeve valve, auxiliary connecting rods, new crankshaft etc) is in order to put exhaust ports at the top (or more correctly at the middle) of the cylinder of a 2-stroke, why not to use an exhaust PatRoVa rotary valve?

http://www.pattakon.com/PatRoVa/PatRoVa_2Stroke.gif

(more at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonPatRoVa.htm )


Thanks
Manolis Pattakos