ESE's works engine tuner

[wobbly]

I asked Neels about that ages ago, and he is sitting on the edge of his chair as we all are.
Once he has the tech info then knowing him, the code will be written damn quick.
As usual, we ( I ) need every small advantage available to beat the factory teams in international kart competition
and being able to examine the wave plots in a Ryger is going to be very illuminating.
I dont believe for a second what Harry has said about the port timings have little effect.
It may make 70 Hp at 17K but just maybe we can change that around and have it smoking the tyres out
of slow corners at 10K as well, same same is useless when racing factory teams.

[adegnes]

Here's a thread with lot's of loctite info, if anyone's interested.
http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/loctite.265016/

Re ryger, maybe the "rings not touching the piston" statement means the piston, rings, or both are treated with something similar to the microblue tungsten disulfide process?

[peewee]

I dont believe for a second what Harry has said about the port timings have little effect.
.

im sure theres been some trickery spread about to throw us off course. i could see maybe the case vol being irrelevant if its using some other mechanism for mixture transer but unless im a total idiot wouldnt there still need to be passages and windows and something uncovering said windows ? there for these windows and their size/ timing will have relevance wouldnt they ?

[Flettner]

im sure theres been some trickery spread about to throw us off course. i could see maybe the case vol being irrelevant if its using some other mechanism for mixture transer but unless im a total idiot wouldnt there still need to be passages and windows and something uncovering said windows ? there for these windows and their size/ timing will have relevance wouldnt they ?

Would timing matter so much if there were reeds in the transfers and the crankcase was a high preesure pump?

[peewee]

well i think we seen a photo and it appeared to have alot of similarities to a conventional 2t. unless the photo was a imposter to throw us off track

[Frits Overmars]

im sure theres been some trickery spread about to throw us off course.
well i think we seen a photo and it appeared to have alot of similarities to a conventional 2t. unless the photo was a imposter to throw us off trackWhere does all this conspiracy thinking come from? If Harry Ryger would have wanted to keep us all in the dark, he wouldn't have published anything in the first place.

[peewee]

he said port timing wasnt important. is there not still transfer and exh passages ? if so then how can the timing be useless :2thumbsup

frits wouldnt there still need to be a timing of each phase of the cycle from tdc back to tdc again ? thats why his timing statment doesnt make sense to me

[Frits Overmars]

he said port timing wasnt important. is there not still transfer and exh passages ? if so then how can the timing be uselessWhere did he ever say timing is useless? Maybe substituting 'not important' with 'not critical' will make you feel better.

[Lightbulb]

how can port surface area be irrelevant for ryger . mixture still passes in and out of the cylinder via transfer and exh passages, does it not ? something has to open and close a window, does it not ? to say the windows size is irrelevant would meen a pin sized hole would give the same results as a much larger hole.

far as i know frits is the only one to see the engine. how can everyone else be sure whats irrelevant or not ?? johhnyquest if you know how it works i think all of us are listening with great anticipation

It is very possible with reed valves in a transfer port , that if they are pre set with a given pressure to open, that the transfer timing could actually be very low indeed, even as low or even lower than 90 deg duration. With air fuel being forced through two sets of reed valves, then the mixture will be forced mixed, possibly making it the ideal mixture for an HCCI engine after x amount of rpm. Absolutely for sure, if people like Frits have seen it, and says it is real, I believe them. Unfortunately for use, we all have to wait and see. But I am sure of quite a few ideas and I am very sure I am correct in my assumptions of what they have done. It has to be simple, has to be efficient, and has to be in an order that once it is all revealed we will all be asking ourselves, why did I not think of that.? We have been given lots of clues, it is just a matter of joining the dots with imagination. Have a look at an early patent of a 2 stroke engine. Then compare that to a modern multi schnurle port engine. The Ryger is a natural progression and no doubt very simple. It has to be if it can be made with a few changes to an existing engine layout.
Neil

[Martin1981]

For every single annoying question of how the ryger engine works and when ryger finally will tell us the story, ryger should add another month or year before doing that.

i am curious too, but that annoying daily questioning will not accelerate anything.

[JanBros]

It is very possible with reed valves in a transfer port , that if they are pre set with a given pressure to open, that the transfer timing could actually be very low indeed


It has to be simple

these 2 absolutly do not go together. reads build in 11 ports in a cylinder that looks as simple as a normal 2stroke cylinder can not be "simple".
If I had money to spare, I'd bet there are no reads in the transfers.

[wobbly]

The "reed in the transfer duct " idea does not have to automatically mean they are in all 11 of them - making it then "not simple "..
The scavenging regime can quite possibly be asymmetric, with one set doing a completely different job to the others.

[TZ350]

reads built in 11 ports in a cylinder that looks as simple as a normal 2stroke cylinder can not be "simple". If I had money to spare, I'd bet there are no reads in the transfers.

315974

If I counted correctly this straight six Mercury 2T outboard has 60 reed petals between the three inlets and six crank cases.

Maybe the Ryger has no reeds but could 11 or even 22 reed's be implemented into a Ryger cylinder just as simply?

[Flettner]

these 2 absolutly do not go together. reads build in 11 ports in a cylinder that looks as simple as a normal 2stroke cylinder can not be "simple".
If I had money to spare, I'd bet there are no reads in the transfers.

Where is your imagination? Early days of Karting had reeds stuffed everywhere on the engine. They don't have to look like the traditional reed blocks, do they?

[MotleyCrue]

The Ryger makes no more torque than the Aprilia in fact a bit less, but works to a higher engine speed, so it makes more power. 11 ports, maybe many reeds, weird crankcase features, and who knows what all else, doesnt make for a better fill, just a normal good fill but at a much higher engine speed. Not sure how its done but if the 30% more power could be had at 13500 rpm by 30% better filling instead of 17000 rpm by 30% more engine speed I would like that even better.

[2005bully]

If the timing of the transfer ports is not critical, that leads to the assumption that some method besides symmetrical piston port control is employed to time the transfer of mixture.. Naturally the first thought is control by demand. And since reed technology is what we are familiar with in this context that is our first assumption. But assumptions could also include the timing of the bulk flow of mixture transfer through re-timed pressure differentials. The advantage of such a design in regards to mixture transfer has been documented by Manuel Sevilla Sanz. In the 1980s he pursued an idea of the early DKW engineers to move the majority of the mixture transferred towards the end of the transfer port open period. His method was achieved with a secondary positive displacement piston pump phased to emulate non symmetrical transfer port timings. If a diaphragm type pump were located between the base of the Rygers cylinder and the crankshaft, it could be phased so when the piston uncovers early opening transfer ports the pressure differential above and below the piston is nearly equal. This would result in little initial upward flow through the transfers, but as the cycle continues the pumps phasing would increase the pressure differential and delay the period of time when the bulk of the mixture is transferred. The benefits would include more effective time for blow-down be delaying the time when the bulk of the mixture is transferred. Low pressure differentials at port opening would reduce mixture dilution. Additionally with the fresh mixture spending less time in the cylinder before ex port closing, short circuiting should be reduced.
As to the process the Ryger actually uses, this concept of is pure speculation. Hopefully someone can find it as food for thought... Kermit Buller

[peewee]

bully if it eliminates any fresh mixture from going into the pipe when the exh port opens then wouldnt it need some type of new pipe design because a traditional pipes designed to push mixture back to the cylinder i thought ?

[Lightbulb]

these 2 absolutly do not go together. reads build in 11 ports in a cylinder that looks as simple as a normal 2stroke cylinder can not be "simple".
If I had money to spare, I'd bet there are no reads in the transfers.

I do not believe it has 11 transfer ports. I believe it has 11 sets of reed valves, 6 for induction, and 5 for the 5 transfer ports. You can not think of this in the terms of the normal 2t engine layout with crank case compression. It will have only piston volume compression. So with that the dynamics will be very different indeed. I have not read anywhere that it has 11 transfer ports. 5 is more realistic and all that would be required. As far as reeds go, there are lots of design options for them as well. You have bike type reeds and then their are reeds like what is in a pulse jet and then their are the type that are in wind instruments, like an oboe or bag pipe. These are the things that test the grey matter in deed. Pulse jet reeds are very simple and allow for quite big time area's as well.
Neil

[TZ350]

I have not read anywhere that it has 11 transfer ports.


315989

Hey guys,check this one!!

Sure it says 11 transfer ducts, so your right it does not say 11 transfer ports. And there could easily be just the usual 5 transfer ports.

[2005bully]

Previous post from pee wee.... bully if it eliminates any fresh mixture from going into the pipe when the exh port opens then wouldnt it need some type of new pipe design because a traditional pipes designed to push mixture back to the cylinder i thought ?

You may be correct. Remember this is all speculation...... Looking at the picture of the Ryger pipe, it does appears to be quite conventional..... My thought is that the mixture drawn by the pipe into the ex port would mainly be burnt gasses with perhaps a small amount of fresh mixture. This means there would be a larger volume of burnt ex gasses also pushed back into the cylinder. These burnt gases loaded with free radicals left from the previous combustion cycle would be available to inter mix with the fresh charge trapped in the cylinder for the next combustion cycle. This method without mechanical complications could well simulate the throttled the ex duct process as describe in Hondas exp2 motorcycle research. This research was effective in achieving ARC (ARC is Hondas acronym with the same meaning as the more common acronym HCCI). This might just allow the Ryger to be self compensating with the pipe to achieve Hcci over a broad rpm range. And do so without the power robing restriction of Hondas exhaust duct throttling..... If indeed the process were possible.... In my understanding the appearance of a hi primary compression would limit the volume of mixture that could be moved through the engine at peak BMEP. (limiting the torque peak) But because of greater effective blow down time periods and less loss of fresh mixture at high rpm's the process should greatly extend the engines ability to "overwind".
Its all a puzzle, just trying to take what information is available and match it to a process that fits the clues.

Here is a link to an over view of Hondas research.... http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/honda/honda-exp2-14293.html

Here is a link describing Hcci..... https://idea.library.drexel.edu/islandora/object/idea%3A5117/datastream/OBJ/view

Kermit Buller

[breezy]

i hope that vw had nothing to do with the emissions testing ...!!!!!:brick:

[wobbly]

The number of ports/ducts has been lost in translation I believe.
In the CIK homologation papers the quantity does refer to the number of holes in the cylinder.
This is set down in stone so that clever bastards don't rearrange the numbers to say turn a transfer port into an extra ex port for example.

[monkeyfumi]

Pictures on the twitter today showed Stan Stephens has built a 1200cc 2-stroke v6 (using Banshee cylinders) Only 3 carbs (in the vee, looks like pairs of cylinders from opposing banks share the inlet.)

Not sure what it's meant to go in, but should be interesting.

[wobbly]

For those of you that dont know ( coz you didnt give her any jumpstart cash ) Av is 2015 European Woman's Cup winner.
Stunning result - and just goes to show , dreams do come true - but you gotta have them first.

[TZ350]

315999 (https://twitter.com/avgas21/status/646310585563521028/photo/1)


Av is 2015 European Woman's Cup winner. Stunning result -
www.https://twitter.com/avgas21/status/646310585563521028/photo/1

Av

[Muciek]

https://twitter.com/harleyholeshot/status/646355318763560960

316000

Should be around 200Hp?

[peewee]

wob figured you like to see the crank that showed up the other day. yes im using straight cut spur gears :Punk:. picked up a extra roller bearing and had a groove cut in to use behind the front sprocket. you reckon it should hold together for a good long while ?

[TZ350]

I just love to see these posts and pictures about motors that people are building for themselves..... :niceone:

[wobbly]

With the centre two bearings located in the case, why do you need to lock the outer bearing races in with clips as well.
There is no side load with straight cut gears.
I would take out the outer clips to let both sides of the crank float, and make sure it does by moving those outer races as far outwards as you can.
This will remove the huge friction setup when everything heats up and the axial clearance on the bearings starts to disappear.
Simply floating the crank ( 0.3mm ) in a 125 single is worth over a Hp.

[peewee]

i havent put a dial indicator on it yet but i will. even with all the bearings clipped it still has some end float. about .3-.5mm judging by feel. they must have set it up like that when it was assembled

[dark art]

Ryger said in they facebook page that a aprilia rs125 can be converted in 1 day with some complimentary ducts, acheving full benefit (70hp).
Now thats interesting, most probably any engine can be converted easily enough :eek:

[TZ350]

Ryger said in their facebook page that a aprilia rs125 can be converted in 1 day with some complimentary ducts, achieving full benefit (70hp). Now that is interesting, most probably any engine can be converted easily enough :eek:

That is what I am hoping for .... :D

[F5 Dave]

1 day.24 hrs. Unspecified workforce, unspecified spare parts. Yeah. I can see that.
You could also turn a brothel into a vicarage in that time. But the returning customers probably wouldn't be so enthusiastic.

[WilDun]

Good one! :laugh:

[polinizei]

Hey Guys,

my name is Michael, I am the owner of Xyger Rennsport, a little German 2 Stroke workshop.
I think each of the 24 brands that end with "yger", stand for ultimate Engine Knowhow and Race Performance :-)
The letters also indicate the Knowhow of the performance ranking... so take care :-)

Here are my thoughts about the Ryger enigma.
The Ryger engine could work with pulse charging and the simple rule: "First in First Out"
On the German Wikipedia, there is a scheme picture of valveless pulse engine.

Its shows how it deals with the air and exhaust masses.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4f/Valvess-pulse-jet-work.jpg/220px-Valvess-pulse-jet-work.jpg


To prevent the carburetor from backflowing exhaust gases, there could be a conventional intake reed between the little intake and the carb.
There is a picture on facebook of a Aprilia Ryger conversion, with a visible Reed-Plate.

The breathing could work through a higer C- Port only, or with a higher A, B, C Port at the same height.

To have a better charging of the A- and B Port with a higher C- Port, there could also be reed valves in the Boyesen Ports.
In both scenarios, I don´t think the transfer ports open/close at same time as the exhaust.
The heavy returning wave of the exhaust could easily push the fresh carge back in the ducts.



Why does the bucket of the Ryger engine have 11 ducts?
I think, more but smaller ducts can reduce the mixing between burnt and unburnt gases in the duct.


The pulse scavenging is probably a very powerful and stable process, instead of the old fashioned crank case pumping and exhaust sucking.
That could be the reason why the Ryger Team did a reeving test, to see what happens with its bottom End...

Thats my X(R)yger Conversion I did in the early days (Just kidding)
https://picasaweb.google.com/117248913887053981093/AdaptierungMVTMilleniumZundungDigitalFurV50MotorXy gerRennsport#5510199973983774818

[MotleyCrue]

Reeds in transfers would have to open and close in about half the time that regular engine crankcase reeds do and do it at a lot more rpm too. The reeds would have to be pretty short to keep up. Open and shut in say 120 degrees crank rotation at 30000 rpm compared to say 240 degrees at 13500 rpm. Seems not too likely to me.


The trouble with transfers is that a lot of the opening happens when the piston is moving very slowly. The exhaust opens when the piston is moving very fast. That patent that everyone denies had a moving cylinder wall at the bottom so a transfer could actually open up really fast (piston is moving slow but wall can be moving fast). Sure the patent is overly complex and probably not "it" but it might be a predecessor to the final concept.

[2005bully]

Reeds in transfers would have to open and close in about half the time that regular engine crankcase reeds do and do it at a lot more rpm too. The reeds would have to be pretty short to keep up. Open and shut in say 120 degrees crank rotation at 30000 rpm compared to say 240 degrees at 13500 rpm. Seems not too likely to me.


The trouble with transfers is that a lot of the opening happens when the piston is moving very slowly. The exhaust opens when the piston is moving very fast. That patent that everyone denies had a moving cylinder wall at the bottom so a transfer could actually open up really fast (piston is moving slow but wall can be moving fast). Sure the patent is overly complex and probably not "it" but it might be a predecessor to the final concept.



MotleyCrue.... At times even the most impractical design is able to illuminate the merit of a concept. But simple implementation is when the true difficulties present themselves..........

[d2t]

Hi everybody! I'm new to this forum but I must say, reading through this thread has proved to be very interesting. Some of your ideas are very entertaining!

I too wonder of what Mr. Ryger has developed and can only speculate for now but it fills me with excitement to think that this could be a return to a new street-legal 2-stroke era. With as much as some of you focus on power, I wonder why there are very little comments on how this engine gets such an efficient burn? I've studied various injection technologies over the last decade and wonder if the fuel is delivered in such a way that it doesn't have to be drawn into the crankcase and compressed like the fresh air charge does. Still a long-shot as it's carbureted – not injected. Just throwing an idea out there.

Also I wonder if Fritz laughs himself to sleep at night after reading some of these posts, knowing that he is one of the few that understands the principals behind what is driving us all mad. Regardless, I can't wait to see this engines' launch one day. Should be a great day for all 2T enthusiast!!! :2thumbsup

[MotleyCrue]

But will "one day" be this year, next year, the year after. Reading up on patents, things can drag on a long time, sometimes on purpose. Sounds like people have projects on hold waiting for "one day".

Sounds to me like the engine scavenges good but pushes ALL of the mixture back into the cylinder plus some of the exhaust from the cycle before. That way no fuel escapes. Also sort of like EGR on a 4 stroke but the exhaust gas isn't displacing mixture it is just added to it. No doubt that would cover off both fuel economy and emissions quite well, but how to do that over a range of engine speeds, in a simple way, is hard to say.

[Larry Wiechman]

http://www.bourke-engine.com/history/animation.htm


I have not seen it mentioned here, so I'll throw this in the mix.
No joy trying to load the GIF to KiwiBiker. Click the link to see the animation and read the backstory.

[peewee]

i wanted to use a rubber manifold that would mate directly to the reed block but never could find anything with a correct bolt pattern so i made some adaptor plates but im wondering if i shouldnt make some new ones with thinner material ? but if they were thinner the bolts would only thread in about four turns. not sure if that would be strong enough or not. its a M8x1.25 bolt so maybe four turns would be ok for this application. any bright ideas ?

[peewee]

Hi everybody! I'm new to this forum

got any photos of your past or present 2t projects ? we like to see the neat stuff other folks are working on. dont be shy and post em up :niceone:

[husaberg]

i wanted to use a rubber manifold that would mate directly to the reed block but never could find anything with a correct bolt pattern so i made some adaptor plates but im wondering if i shouldnt make some new ones with thinner material ? but if they were thinner the bolts would only thread in about four turns. not sure if that would be strong enough or not. its a M8x1.25 bolt so maybe four turns would be ok for this application. any bright ideas ?

Counter sink the manifold into the adaptor by milling around the out line.
Wob modified some FCR carbs for an engine as did Jan Thiel.
http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww347/sukkyyakky3/Rumi%20Bike%20Spaan/Scannen0031-1.jpg
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=140567&stc=1&d=1277988199

[wobbly]

Just countersink the back of the plate and have fully threaded csk cap bolts sticking out.
They only need a couple of threads in the plate to hold them from turning as you do up a nyloc from the front.
i used the same idea on this rear sprocket carrier.
You can cut down the csk heads to reduce the depth in the plate.

[SwePatrick]

Ryger engine.
As you are touching the area of pulsejets.
This is something i have been thinking about for a while.
As exhaustsystems are getting wilder and wilder i feel that 'engine is secondary to the pipe'.
The pipe more and more works like a pulsejet but with the combustion at the outside of the pipe in an 'kompressor'(piston engine).
You just need crankcasecompression to start the engine, then the pulsejet takes over and controls the piston.

Rgds.

[TZ350]

But will "one day" be this year, next year, the year after. Reading up on patents, things can drag on a long time, sometimes on purpose. Sounds like people have projects on hold waiting for "one day".

My thoughts exactly, I think we need to stop waiting for "one day" and wasting time. Its been fun but we should all get back out to the shed and on with the reality of today's projects. "one day" will come in its own time.

I am building a special 100cc water cooled engine.

It started as a Suzuki GP100, it has:-
48mm stroke crank
RD400 conrod
RGV250 big end bearing
Diesel Piston pin for the crank pin.
KE175 rotary valve cover.
Oversize custom rotary valve.
2003 RM125 Piston
NSR MC21 cylinder
Custom head with removable head insert.
Special 12mm crankcase splitter plate to widen the crankcase for a 6 speed gearbox instead of the original 5 speed.

I would love to see more posts about the progress or problems other people are having with their projects.

[jonny quest]

KISS. Google it. And not the dude with the long tongue. (Ryger)

[F5 Dave]

The spaceman? The romantic? The cat? Ohh, ohh, there was a fox for a while yeah?

[Frits Overmars]

Hi everybody! I'm new to this forum but I must say, reading through this thread has proved to be very interesting. Some of your ideas are very entertaining!
I wonder if Fritz laughs himself to sleep at night after reading some of these posts, knowing that he is one of the few that understands the principals behind what is driving us all mad.Hi there, d2t. I'll have you know that I spend my nights lying awake, crying in my pillow because every newcomer here spells my first name with a Z.
Apart from that, you're right. The Ryger has a very efficient burn and several ideas that were uttered here come quite close to the truth. Too bad I can't comment yet.

[d2t]

Hi there, d2t. I'll have you know that I spend my nights lying awake, crying in my pillow because every newcomer here spells my first name with a Z.


:sweatdrop Sorry about that. Frits is a name that doesn't exist here in the 'States. Closest thing to it is the phrase "on the fritz" which ironically means that something isn't working correctly.


got any photos of your past or present 2t projects ?

I have way too many 2-stroke projects to mention them all. My most ambitious one is a made-from-scratch design of a 125cc twin for road racing. I started a thread on the pit-lane forums about a year ago but shortly after I began the design process, a large tree came crashing through the roof of my workshop and quite literally crushed my dreams. The building had to be demolished but I plan to continue development once construction of the new building is complete. I'm almost glad I've had some time to reflect on the scope of the project because I'll be approaching it in smaller steps going forward. The engine cases will come first and will be 3D printed using PLA plastic to form a casting mold. I'll have much more details as it develops but in the meantime, here's a quick picture of the port designs for the cylinders. Kind of a scaled down version of the RSA ports.

316056

[2005bully]

Ryger engine.
As you are touching the area of pulsejets.
This is something i have been thinking about for a while.
As exhaustsystems are getting wilder and wilder i feel that 'engine is secondary to the pipe'.
The pipe more and more works like a pulsejet but with the combustion at the outside of the pipe in an 'kompressor'(piston engine).
You just need crankcasecompression to start the engine, then the pulsejet takes over and controls the piston.

Rgds.

Swepatrick....
Been pondering the same thoughts. If we envision the plate under the cylinder with a single hole that accepts the liner spigot. When the cylinder is put in place the entrance of the 4 main transfer ports would be blocked and thus isolated from the crankcase volume. Further more if the plate had 2 passageways that connected the cylinders transfer ports entrance to the reed cage cavity, (similar in function to Boyeseen ports) a "secondary transfer chamber" would be created. This new chamber would allow direct communication between the transfer ports and the reed cage. If the intake port in the cylinder were then blocked, but had its boost port left in direct communication with the reed cage. The crank case would be isolated from the new "secondary transfer chamber", and the most simple basics of the concept would be in place.

Next additional ducts cut in the cylinder wall (resulting in any number transfer ducts) could be arraigned to allow piston controlled timing of an additional transfer of gasses between the top of the piston and the newly created chamber. These added ducts would require an opening time when enough pressure differential existed above the piston that the new secondary chamber could be "charged" to get the initial flow of mixture started at transfer port opening. These ducts would do double duty by promoting HCCI through the introduction of free radicals left from combustion into the next cycles fresh mixture. A convenient side effect is that stronger power strokes would supply larger qty's of free radicals back into each of the next cycles mixture. Possibly resulting in self regulating the requirements for HCCI.

Then how to start the engine. I suppose a diaphragm or piston allowing communication between the crank case the newly created secondary chamber could do the job. But perhaps the large canister shown outside the engine is pressurized and that pressure is introduced to get the events started. The whole concept above is mechanically simple, could be quite easily adapted to existing engines, and fits with many of the clues. I hope some of you give some responses as to the flaws with it. I'm about out of sleep and ideas. Really need some input to keep thinking.


While Frits is up all night crying in his pillow over the miss-spelling of his name. The rest of us are up all night crying in our pillows pondering the imaginations of the Ryger team.

Just kidding Fritz.... Thanks for all you do....A riddle as good as this one comes along all to seldom...... Kermit Buller

[adegnes]

My thoughts exactly, I think we need to stop waiting for "one day" and wasting time. Its been fun but we should all get back out to the shed and on with the reality of today's projects. "one day" will come in its own time.

I am building a special 100cc water cooled engine.

It started as a Suzuki GP100, it has:-
48mm stroke crank
RD400 conrod
RGV250 big end bearing
Diesel Piston pin for the crank pin.
KE175 rotary valve cover.
Oversize custom rotary valve.
2003 RM125 Piston
NSR MC21 cylinder
Custom head with removable head insert.
Special 12mm crankcase splitter plate to widen the crankcase for a 6 speed gearbox instead of the original 5 speed.

I would love to see more posts about the progress or problems other people are having with their projects.

If there's something I can enjoy it's a proper "frankenbike"!

My Peugeot spx build is progressing in a slow but steady pace.
The crankcase has been epoxied and matched to the m50 transfers, new cylinder stud holes has been cut, the old ones filled.

316060

The pipe has been given a 25mm shorter belly and a oval to round adapter where it meets the cylinder.

316063

The cylinder is decked 0.5mm and the main and aux ex raised 0.8mm and 1.1mm respectively. The main exhaust has also been treated with a radiused top edge.

316059316062

Crank ground for slip fit bearings in my super precision lathe.

316061

Currently trying to scrounge up some cash for microblue bearings.

[adegnes]

To get your mind off the ryger; Here's my shop/mancave, complete with plastic roof and bad lighting!

316066316065

The mill and lathe is in the scrap pile behind the shop together with all my other high end machining equipment - had to go to make room for the fridge and sofa.

[TZ350]

If there's something I can enjoy it's a proper "frankenbike"!


To get your mind off the ryger; Here's my shop/mancave, complete with plastic roof and bad lighting!

Thanks Adegnes .... I like it .... :clap:

[peewee]

Kind of a scaled down version of the RSA ports.

alot of people copied jans work, including myself. good thing he didnt keep all that knowledge to himself or there would be plenty of us still in the stone age :clap:


bully does your idea have a completely sealed crankcase ? im not understanding how that would work. wouldnt it need even a small vent like a transmission ? and how would the bearings and cylinder walls below the pistons range of travel get lubed ? maybe we're not dealing with a conventional piston anymore

[2005bully]

bully does your idea have a completely sealed crankcase ? im not understanding how that would work. wouldnt it need even a small vent like a transmission ? and how would the bearings and cylinder walls below the pistons range of travel get lubed ? maybe we're not dealing with a conventional piston anymore[/QUOTE]


I was thinking that the crank case would be lubricated and vented similar to a 4 stroke. ( a shame not to use the crankcase for some benefit) Another problem would be the pistons transfer cutouts exposing the transfer ports to the crankcase ATDC. The piston could be made with out any cutouts. Or if the crank is conventional, the short rod length coupled together with the added height of the spacer plate would require a piston pin height where transfer cut-outs would not be an issue. The clue that does not fit is how to get any reliability with the conventional crank/rod/piston at those rpm's. There are methods that could alter the pistons acceleration,and side forces. But none that KISS..... Till Later I need dry my pillow.... Kermit Buller

[JanBros]

how crank-bearrings and big-end are lubricated still intrigues me the most. If an RS125 can be transformed in one day, It can not include building an oilpump onto the engine.

[TZ350]

how crank-bearrings and big-end are lubricated still intrigues me the most. If an RS125 can be transformed in one day, It can not include building an oilpump onto the engine.

I think it was even mentioned earlier on, a small measure of oil in the crankcase which is splashed about the place by the bigend whizzing around. Splash feeding everything would not take much oil, maybe 100cc or so. No oil pump required.

[ken seeber]

I think it was even mentioned earlier on, a small measure of oil in the crankcase which is splashed about the place by the bigend whizzing around. Splash feeding everything would not take much oil, maybe 100cc or so. No oil pump required.

This is correct. Have a look at the Honda GX31, a 4 stroke that supposedly can run in all positions indefinitely. Makita also have something similar. Remember that these lube systems must also lubricate the valve gear. All the Ryger has to do is to lubricate the bottom end. One would think that a sealed system with the small volume in it would easily stir up the oil into a mist and lubricate everything pretty well, given rolling element bearings. Oil mist is the recognised best way to lubricate these. Even a piston with an oil scraper at the base of the skirt can easily survive.
Only issue I could see is the heat buildup of the big end without the high throughput of cool mixture, but 4 strokes seem to survive though, albeit with a larger oil system than a small sealed conventionally sized crankcase.

[WilDun]

Honda have a little (I think 25cc or 32cc four stroke) weedeater engine which, in order to enable it to be used in any position, has a seperate cylindrical oil tank at the back end of the crankshaft.
Inside, there is a "whipper" attached to the crank which whips the oil into a misty frenzy. This oily mist is then sucked through the hollow crank on the upstroke oiling the bearings and cylinder, on the downstroke it is then forced out through a reed valve in the case into the camshaft belt tunnel (yes a "wet" toothed belt!) in order to oil the camshaft, then returned through a pipe to the tank. Clear? maybe not but maybe worth a look - it possibly could have an application here! - might find a link soon.

at last !:rolleyes: http://world.honda.com/powerproducts-technology/4-stroke-engine-gx/

[Flettner]

Don't bother, just get the die grinder (or hammer and cold chisel, if you are from Australia) and open up the gearbox to the crank case, plenty of volume and oil and lubieness.

[WilDun]

Don't bother, just get the die grinder (or hammer and cold chisel, if you are from Australia) and open up the gearbox to the crank case, plenty of volume and oil and lubieness.

Go back again Neil and have another look, I've got the right one on there now! - I hadn't properly checked out the one I posted originally before posting it. :facepalm:

Better?

Now I bet you wish you had gone four stroke! :drool:

[Ocean1]

Inside, there is a "whipper" attached to the crank which whips the oil into a misty frenzy.

Plenty of older machinery had "dippers" on the bigend, either cast in or just a bent bit of pipe braized onto the bigend cap.

Not sure if the resulting pressure would be enough to feed the mains at 30K though...

[WilDun]

Plenty of older machinery had "dippers" on the bigend, either cast in or just a bent bit of pipe braized onto the bigend cap.


Yeah, the faithful old Briggs uses a simple 'slinger' (centrifugal fan?) driven off the crankshaft but as you say........at 30.000, maybe not!.

BTW Neil, just look at this graph! - note the flat torque curve of the CX25 Honda! - you don't often see that "stump pulling" grunt from a two stroke! :msn-wink:

316079

[husaberg]

Yeah, the faithful old Briggs uses a simple 'slinger' (centrifugal fan?) driven off the crankshaft but as you say........at 30.000, maybe not!.

BTW Neil, just look at this graph! - note the flat torque curve of the CX25 Honda! - you don't often see that "stump pulling" grunt from a two stroke! :msn-wink:



Stump pulling:laugh: more likely a twig tugger or a leaf blower.
Hit and mist lubrication went out with 1920's indian scouts.
Plain bearings need pressure

[peewee]

seems like someone mentioned something about the piston being cushioned possibly. would that be possible if the crankcase was mostly sealed with all but a small vent ?

[WilDun]

Stump pulling:laugh: more likely a twig tugger or a leaf blower.
Hit and mist lubrication went out with 1920's indian scouts.
Plain bearings need pressure

Oh? - well, guess even I can be wrong sometimes! :confused:

[husaberg]

Oh? - well, guess even I can be wrong sometimes! :confused:

Well I could be too, but the old mist lubrication on the Bert Monroe Indian hamstrung the bike somewhat, even when argumented with the std Aux plunger the bearing turned a nice pretty shade of blue after each run.

[Frits Overmars]

seems like someone mentioned something about the piston being cushioned possibly. would that be possible if the crankcase was mostly sealed with all but a small vent ?If you want huge pumping losses, there is no better way Peewee.

[WilDun]

Well I could be too, but the old mist lubrication on the Bert Monroe Indian hamstrung the bike somewhat, even when argumented with the std Aux plunger the bearing turned a nice pretty shade of blue after each run.

He only needed one good run!


Sorry, we're becoming a little flippant Frits & Peewee, but we're keeping the thread going (for the first time) because the Rugby World Cup and Moto GP are hogging all the attention at the moment!

[TZ350]

BTW Neil, just look at this graph! - note the flat torque curve of the CX25 Honda! - you don't often see that "stump pulling" grunt from a two stroke! :msn-wink:

316091

316090

This is my Suzuki GP125 in its 28hp and pumper carb days, those long flat 2T torque curves are a common feature for the GP.

The GP uses mist lubrication of the piston and crank bearings too.... :)

[husaberg]

He only needed one good run!


Sorry, we're becoming a little flippant Frits & Peewee, but we're keeping the thread going (for the first time) because the Rugby World Cup and Moto GP are hogging all the attention at the moment!

Records are set with two runs within an hour in opposite directions.

[JanBros]

I think it was even mentioned earlier on, a small measure of oil in the crankcase which is splashed about the place by the bigend whizzing around. Splash feeding everything would not take much oil, maybe 100cc or so. No oil pump required.

100cc in a 125cc 2-stroke crankcase, that would probaly fill the crankcase up to the shaft and than you would have the big-end go through it every rev ? it would lubricate it yes, but it would cause a lot of resistance/friction, not only going through but also between the crankwebs and cases.

and how many engines do you know that use only 100cc to lubricate it, and can withstand up to 30.000 rpm without overheating the oil ? Even if you do oil-changes quickly , how are you gonna do them ? take of the cylinder each time ? install a drain plug (that in some engines needs to go through the water jacket arround the cases) ?


Don't bother, just get the die grinder (or hammer and cold chisel, if you are from Australia) and open up the gearbox to the crank case, plenty of volume and oil and lubieness.

would give the same problems as above as the level of oil would need to remain the same if you want to keep your gearbox alive, and you'd allow unfilterd gearbox in your bearrings and big-end - in some engines even oil diluted with clutchwear.

[WilDun]

those long flat 2T torque curves are a common feature for the GP.
The GP uses mist lubrication of the piston and crank bearings too.... :)

True, and if we are looking for friction free bearings I guess needles are the best way to go, even the Guzzi V8 with its one piece crankshaft (rods with split big ends and cages). - no high pressure oil needed there.
I guess that two strokes can be made to have whatever torque curve you like by appropriate port timing, just like four strokes can be manipulated by changing the cam timing.

BTW. I remember Suzuki two strokes having oil pumps delivering oil directly through the crankpins, but the racing guys preferred to discard the oil pump and use conventional petrol/oil mix, why was that? was the amount of oil they delivered a bit unreliable?

[ken seeber]

(or hammer and cold chisel, if you are from Australia)

Well you’re right Fletto. The point being we can always get better with time. Just look at us Ozzies, hammer and cold chisel one day then just one guy blacksmithing a Ryger con rod
316096,


a few years later we then had a team of guys making them, soaring production levels.

316097


Even our close neighbours across the Tasman, they have developed, refined their methods as well. Particularly with farming, where good locations are essential. Location, location, location, the catch cry of real estate agents the world over. :niceone:

316098

[Frits Overmars]

Sorry, we're becoming a little flippant Frits & Peewee, but we're keeping the thread going because the Rugby World Cup and MotoGP are hogging all the attention at the moment!No worries Will, we thrive on chaos.
Eh, rugby? Is that one of those sports where you only need one ball?


100cc in a 125cc 2-stroke crankcase, that would probaly fill the crankcase up to the shaft and than you would have the big-end go through it every rev ? it would lubricate it yes, but it would cause a lot of resistance/friction, not only going through but also between the crankwebs and cases.That's right Jan. That is why there is only 50 cc of oil in the Ryger crankcase. Or was it 60 cc?


...open up the gearbox to the crank case, plenty of volume and oil and lubieness.
you'd allow unfiltered gearbox in your bearings and big-end - in some engines even oil diluted with clutchwear.Right again, so the Ryger crankcase is separated from the gearbox, as in any decent engine (aka two-stroke).

[2005bully]

That's right Jan. That is why there is only 50 cc of oil in the Ryger crankcase. Or was it 60 cc?

Right again, so the Ryger crankcase is separated from the gearbox, as in any decent engine (aka two-stroke).[/QUOTE]



:confused: So it was proffesor plum in the parlor but was it with a wrench or a lead pipe ?

[seattle smitty]

(Quote Originally Posted by MotleyCrue )

But will "one day" be this year, next year, the year after. Reading up on patents, things can drag on a long time, sometimes on purpose. Sounds like people have projects on hold waiting for "one day". (end Quote)


(Quote TZ350) My thoughts exactly, I think we need to stop waiting for "one day" and wasting time. Its been fun but we should all get back out to the shed and on with the reality of today's projects. "one day" will come in its own time. (end Quote)


Agreed, Crue and TeeZee.

But think about the huge volume of very interesting and imaginative ideas that have been presented here since the Ryger speculation began. I am enormously impressed by this interchange, and think it can only be good for 2-strokers to get excited and get to thinking outside the box (a well-worn cliché, but it works) every so often. Having got the original-thinkers and do-it-yourselfers of the 2-stroke community all stirred up like this, when Mr. Ryger finally can present the details of his breakthrough engine to the membership here, I'd bet we soon see various tweaks and mods that improve it even further.

[F5 Dave]

Well, we can start by polishing the head. My old trials bike had a polished head. Looked real purty. Made the mud easier to clean off too.

Real world gains.
Maybe not so important on a kart or roadrace bike.

[jasonu]

Well, we can start by polishing the head. My old trials bike had a polished head. Looked real purty. Made the mud easier to clean off too.

Real world gains.
Maybe not so important on a kart or roadrace bike.

Geez Dave you're up early.

[WilDun]

I am enormously impressed by this interchange, and think it can only be good for 2-strokers to get excited and get to thinking outside the box

SMITTY,
Kiwis live outside the box!

[TZ350]

Eh, rugby? Is that one of those sports where you only need one ball?

"Rugby" it is where grown men thrust their heads between the sweaty thighs of other grunting men. Its called a game???? but I am not so sure about that .... :msn-wink:

[Frits Overmars]

SMITTY, Kiwis live outside the box!Yeah, right :msn-wink:
316103 316104 316105

Just kidding; I know you are a free-thinking bunch over there.

[TZ350]

SMITTY, Kiwis live outside the box!

316106

Who told you that ...... :laugh:

[wobbly]

Dont worry guys, the instant the CIK stamps the homologation papers I will be online to download them.
This is not far away at all.
Ryger has made it almost to the end of the process, and even has a provisional Homologation Number issued.
I laughed my tits off the other day when I saw that TM are in the same process of homologating the KZ10C.
What a joke, it may have 45Hp in stock form at the sprocket, and will be trying to stay with a 70 Hp monster.

[TZ350]

They say it's possible to convert an ordinary 2T engine to the Ryger style fairly easily. So that has got me thinking. It may be some time before the Ryger system is revealed but that does not stop us getting something ready.

So what sort of motor to start with, well I think rotary valve and piston port are out because the pictures of the Ryger show a cylinder reed valve setup. So for what its worth, here are my thoughts about what could be done within the F4 rules.

316110

Start with a good old farm bike TS/TF100 (they still make them new) and fit a rebored cylinder for 109.9cc.

316113

To give myself as much under cylinder volume as possible and room for a cylinder adaptor plate I would use an RD400 rod and RGV250 bigend bearing.

The RD400 rod is 115mm C/C with a 20mm little end eye so with a KTM125 15x19x20 little end bearing you can use the newer style 54mm pistons with the 15mm pins.

316111

A piston like the 2000-2003 RM125 which has one ring and the ring peg dead central at the back so it runs in the boost port would be good.

You have to be careful because some 115mm rods like the RZ use a different OD bigend and a 21mm ID little end. While you can get 21mm OD little end bearings for 16mm pins I have not seen anything with an OD of 21mm suitable for 15mm pins.

316114

I would use an RGV250 bigend bearing as it is a flat cage and silver plated, it is possible to find peak coated bearings but the 115mm Banshee rod ones don't fit the RD400 rod.

Because the original TF/TS crank bigend is only 19mm then when boring it out to 22mm it is possible to offset it so the stroke becomes 48mm for a legal 109.9cc 54x48 bore stroke combination.

One could use a NSR250 cylinder and fit a crankcase reed or use an Aprilia RS125 cylinder with its cylinder reed setup. Either way you would have to make a cylinder head insert the spigoted into the barrel about 3mm.

316115

The Aprilia cylinder has a triple exhaust port, power valve and boysen inlet port.


316112

Team ESE have successfully converted these little Loncin - Monkey bike racing ignitions to 6A 12V units by rewinding the HV side for 12V. With a Scooter Voltage rectifier/regulator and 50V 5600 uf capacitor they make great push and go 12V generators.

Use a Mercedes air/water turbo intercooler water pump that is switched on by a thermal switch on the cylinder head.

So the basic formula is:-

Use a TF/TS100
Fit a rebored cylinder for 109.9cc.
TS gearbox.

RD400 rod and bigend pin.
RGV250 bigend bearing.
KTM 15x20x18mm little end bearing.
2000-2003 RM125 piston
48mm stroke crank bored for a 22mm pin.
Plug old ballance holes with alloy plugs.
Ballance to 50%
Cylinder Spacer/Adaptor plate.

Use a timing wheel to determine the spacer/adaptor plate thickness that positions the port timing about 118 on the transfers and 84 on the exhaust. This may take some juggling.

Them make a special head insert that spigots down into the cylinder for the right squish clearance on the piston.

[richban]

Ok Rob.

Since my 4 stroke is so totally broken and I have just found a TF engine. I will be doing this. Exactly this. I will sell all the fancy 4 stroke bits to pay for the new build.

Not worried about the Ryger aspect. Just keen to get out on track again and this time on a 2 stroke.

Should be a fun build.






They say it's possible to convert an ordinary 2T engine to the Ryger style fairly easily. So that has got me thinking. It may be some time before the Ryger system is revealed but that does not stop us getting something ready.

So what sort of motor to start with, well I think rotary valve and piston port are out because the pictures of the Ryger show a cylinder reed valve setup. So for what its worth, here are my thoughts about what could be done within the F4 rules.

316110

Start with a good old farm bike TS/TF100 (they still make them new) and fit a rebored cylinder for 109.9cc.

316113

To give myself as much under cylinder volume as possible and room for a cylinder adaptor plate I would use an RD400 rod and RGV250 bigend bearing.

The RD400 rod is 115mm C/C with a 20mm little end so with a KTM125 15x20x19 little end bearing you can use the newer style 54mm pistons with the 15mm pins.

316111

A piston like the 2000-2003 RM125 which has one ring and the ring peg dead central at the back so it runs in the boost port would be good.

You have to be careful because some 115mm rods like the RZ use a different OD bigend and a 21mm ID little end. While you can get 21mm OD little end bearings for 16mm pins I have not seen anything with an OD of 21mm suitable for 15mm pins.

316114

I would use an RGV250 bigend bearing as it is a flat cage and silver plated, it is possible to find peak coated bearings but the 115mm Banshee rod ones don't fit the RD400 rod.

Because the original TF/TS crank bigend is only 19mm then when boring it out to 22mm it is possible to offset it so the stroke becomes 48mm for a legal 109.9cc 54x48 bore stroke combination.

One could use a NSR250 cylinder and fit a crankcase reed or use an Aprilia RS125 cylinder with its cylinder reed setup. Either way you would have to make a cylinder head insert the spigoted into the barrel about 3mm.

316115

The Aprilia cylinder has a triple exhaust port, power valve and boysen inlet port.


316112

Team ESE have successfully converted these little Loncin - Monkey bike racing ignitions to 6A 12V units by rewinding the HV side for 12V. With a Scooter Voltage rectifier/regulator and 50V 5600 uf capacitor they make great push and go 12V generators.

Use a Mercedes air/water turbo intercooler water pump that is switched on by a thermal switch on the cylinder head.

So the basic formula is:-

Use a TF/TS100
Fit a rebored cylinder for 109.9cc.
TS gearbox.

RD400 rod and bigend pin.
RGV250 bigend bearing.
KTM 15x20x18mm little end bearing.
2000-2003 RM125 piston
48mm stroke crank bored for a 22mm pin.
Plug old ballance holes with alloy plugs.
Ballance to 50%
Cylinder Spacer/Adaptor plate.

Use a timing wheel to determine the spacer/adaptor plate thickness that positions the port timing about 118 on the transfers and 84 on the exhaust. This may take some juggling.

Them make a special head insert that spigots down into the cylinder for the right squish clearance on the piston.

[TZ350]

Yes, when it's all boiled down it's fairly basic.

1) Crank bored for 22mm pin.
2) Cylinder spacer plate.
3) Spigoted head insert.

Nothing much special, but plenty of potential.

Please post your progress.

[ken seeber]

Apart from the technology, the second most confusing thing is the secrecy, or the need for it at this time. Frits, and presumably others, has signed a confidential disclosure agreement, with a 100k euro penalty. Fair enough.
However, now Harry has, as part of the homologation process, had to disclose it to his local ASN and from there go to the CIK. Many people involved here, some possibly not even trustworthy. And we still haven't had a leak. I can't see these channels being willing, or even wanting to, to sign a CDA. A mystery here.
Either way, on Jan 1, next year, it will all be revealed, either via the CIK or the fact that they might be commercially available.
Just 3 months to go.
So why the secrecy? One thing I can think of is that by not disclosing it right now, despite the fact that he must have patent protection in the form of a provisional or complete, is that he is protecting himself against any initial commercial competition. So, if TM did get early wind of how it works, they could have submitted their version to the CIK, and dealt with patent infringement stuff later. 45 hp is not going to cut it against 70 hp.

Some Ryger forensic stuff. The side view of the engine, one used for the homologation application, has some funny details.
316120
The reed block housing looks decidedly like that off a Rotax Max, that maybe has been welded (photoshopped?) on to a VM cylinder, after some of the cast in lettering has been machined away. Also the inlet side boss level has also been raised. Nothing wrong with that though in the name of development.
316117
Then a right side view of the Ryger cylinder, showing RYGER cast in. Got to be genuine.
316121
Then a week or so ago, on the Ryger facebook page, another pic (including that handsome Frits), covering most of the cylinder head. But look at the cylinder.
316118
Looks very much like a Rotax cylinder, other than the fact that the external divider between the A and B passages is angled differently. I think that the Rotax cylinder was based on a very similar production road bike cylinder (Aprilia?) which is what they maybe used. Certainly not the cylinder in the homologation application. Hiding a direct injection system?

Who knows? Harry certainly does. And in 3 months we all might know.

[richban]

Yes, when it's all boiled down it's fairly basic.

1) Crank bored for 22mm pin.
2) Cylinder spacer plate.
3) Spigoted head insert.

Nothing much special, but plenty of potential.

Please post your progress.


Yep will post as we go. I am looking forward to it.

[lodgernz]

The RD400 rod is 115mm C/C with a 20mm little end eye so with a KTM125 15x20x19 little end bearing you can use the newer style 54mm pistons with the 15mm pins.


I have a suspicion that a long rod may not be possible in the Ryger configuration.

[TZ350]

Shopping list for a TF/TS 110

RGV big end bearing:- http://www.ebay.com/itm/201347952437?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

RD400 original 2T2 Rod kit:- http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-RD400-1976-1979-Pro-X-Connecting-Rod-Kit-RD-400-03-2070-/381207195008?fits=Model%3ARD400&hash=item58c1b82d80&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pro-X-ProX-Yamaha-RD-400-RD400-Connecting-Rod-Kit-Pro-X-Vintage-03-2070-03-2070-/231434011037?fits=Model%3ARD400&hash=item35e28ac19d&vxp=mtr

Parts from MotoXparts here in Auckland

2003 RM125 piston:- http://www.motoxparts.co.nz/p/suzuki-rm-125-piston-kit-wossner

http://www.motoxparts.co.nz/p/suzuki-rm-125-piston-kit-meteor

Spare Ring:- http://www.motoxparts.co.nz/p/suzuki-rm-125-piston-ring

Spare Clips:- http://www.motoxparts.co.nz/p/suzuki-rm-125-piston-circlips-wossner

Little end bearing:- 15x19x20 http://www.motoxparts.co.nz/p/suzuki-rm-125-small-bearing-koyo

http://www.motoxparts.co.nz/p/ktm-125-sx-small-bearing-koyo

[Grumph]

I have a suspicion that a long rod may not be possible in the Ryger configuration.

If the homologation papers say 90mm C - C, that's what it has to be....
I'm suspecting a long piston with a ring at top and bottom - and a very low gudgeon height.

[husaberg]

If the homologation papers say 90mm C - C, that's what it has to be....
I'm suspecting a long piston with a ring at top and bottom - and a very low gudgeon height.

Remember how either Frits or Harry said about the friction of the ring and the bore, I say guided, the rod maybe 90mm but the deck height appears normal so there must be a a very super low pin location as you mused, or a guided rod cross head which i favour.
Maybe even ringless Lab type sealed.

[TZ350]

I have a suspicion that a long rod may not be possible in the Ryger configuration.

I think you are right and when the time comes next year or the year after to convert the TS/TF110 to a Ryger configuration, as well as some special piston and spacer plate we will have to change the rod too, not such a biggie in the scheme of things.

[lodgernz]

I'm suspecting a long piston with a ring at top and bottom - and a very low gudgeon height.

My thoughts exactly, except maybe 2 rings top and bottom. Definitely not a crosshead arrangement. No need.

[lodgernz]

Remember how either Frits or Harry said about the friction of the ring and the bore, I say guided, the rod maybe 90mm but the deck height appears normal so there must be a a very super low pin location as you mused, or a guided rod cross head which i favour.
Maybe even ringless Lab type sealed.

Deck height is not quite normal as it is elevated by the base spacer. Again points to a long piston.

[husaberg]

My thoughts exactly, except maybe 2 rings top and bottom. Definitely not a crosshead arrangement. No need.
Need =
A short rod has a very high degree of angularity. Angularity equals friction.


On smaller engines the connecting rod links the piston and the crankshaft directly, but this transmits sideways forces to the piston, since the crankpin (and thus the direction the force is applied) moves from side to side with the rotary motion of the crank. These transverse forces are tolerable in a smaller engine; a larger engine's much greater forces would cause an intolerable degree of wear on the piston and cylinder, as well as increasing overall friction in the engine.wikihttp://hycompusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/oil-isolation_b.jpghttp://hycompusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/crossheadpiston_b.jpg



Deck height is not quite normal as it is elevated by the base spacer. Again points to a long piston.

Deck height is as you say taller, so this points to a longer rod, but the rod is at least 20mm shorter than STD. yet the deck height is still taller again. By at least 20mm See where i am going with this?
there is at lest 40-60mm missing. I guess some day we will be let in on the secret what and how it works.

[Grumph]

My thoughts exactly, except maybe 2 rings top and bottom. Definitely not a crosshead arrangement. No need.

Didn't the homologation papers say 2 rings ? I read that as one top and probably one bottom...

[peewee]

Need =
A short rod has a very high degree of angularity. Angularity equals friction. .

ok im lost now. how does 4 rings or even 2 rings eqaul low friction ? is there some sort of special coating being used or some kind of special rings ?

[jasonu]

ok im lost now. how does 4 rings or even 2 rings eqaul low friction ? is there some sort of special coating being used or some kind of special rings ?

Wasn't it said by those in the know that the ring(s) don't touch the piston?

[husaberg]

ok im lost now. how does 4 rings or even 2 rings eqaul low friction ? is there some sort of special coating being used or some kind of special rings ?

Cross heads change the angle to solely up and down they rid the thrust friction due to rod angularity.
That's why modern ringless Compressors use them as they can't allow the gas and the oil to mix otherwise they might explode.


Wasn't it said by those in the know that the ring(s) don't touch the piston?
Yes it was.

[WilDun]

Need =
A short rod has a very high degree of angularity. Angularity equals friction.
I guess some day we will be let in on the secret what and how it works.

If you ask me and judging by the picture of the engine in front of the homologation papers and posted a while ago, I would say that the crosshead/straightline piston rod concept you describe plays no part in the Ryger engine! ie judging by the height of the engine (Ryger?) portrayed in the picture!

Oh and Frits, those are "Kiwifruit" not "Kiwi's" - kiwi fruits stay inside the box, Kiwi "jokers" live outside the box (despite what TZ is suggesting) and I might add, the third picture portrays cheap Italian fakes! - they should just stick to making Ducati's.
Then of course, there is also an obscure flightless bird also which has the cheek to call itself a "Kiwi".
Neil is a Kiwi too but he can fly!

[Frits Overmars]

They say it's possible to convert an ordinary 2T engine to the Ryger style fairly easily. So what sort of motor to start with, well I think rotary valve and piston port are out because the pictures of the Ryger show a cylinder reed valve setup.
To give myself as much under cylinder volume as possible and room for a cylinder adaptor plate I would use an RD400 rod and RGV250 bigend bearing.
The RD400 rod is 115mm C/C with a 20mm little end eye so with a KTM125 15x19x20 little end bearing you can use the newer style 54mm pistons with the 15mm pins.The Ryger uses a 90 mm C/C rod.You can use a long rod in the Ryger setup, but it is not necessary and it will lead to a rather high engine. And you will need a special piston anyway.


One could use a NSR250 cylinder and fit a crankcase reed or use an Aprilia RS125 cylinder with its cylinder reed setup. The Aprilia cylinder has a triple exhaust port, power valve and boysen inlet port.Strictly speaking these are Rotax cylinders. There is also a version with a single exhaust port. It's cheaper and it was used on several Ryger prototype engines.
Fitting a crankcase reed will conflict with rygerising your engine.


a week or so ago, on the Ryger facebook page, another pic (including that handsome Frits), covering most of the cylinder head..... Hiding a direct injection system?Flattery will get you nowhere, Ken. And there is no injection system; the Ryger just uses the 30 mm Dellorto carb that is mandatory for all these KZ kart engines.

[TZ350]

The Ryger uses a 90 mm C/C rod.You can use a long rod in the Ryger setup, but it is not necessary and it will lead to a rather high engine. And you will need a special piston anyway.

316151 316150

The TF/TS100 is a farm bike engine, the Aprilia RS125 cylinder I had in mind is from a road bike and the RD400 115mm C/C rod is mostly about having enough height to fit a spacer/adaptor plate for the modified TF/TS engines water cooled cylinder.

I was expecting to change the rod when Rygerising the engine. And also replace the TF/TS spacer/adapter plate with the Ryger version. It has been obvious for a while that the Ryger piston will be a bespoke item.

Anyway that is all for later, the first step is to get a TF/TS 100cc air cooled engine into watercooled mode. The basics of the conversion is simple but there is a lot of work in the detail.

The big picture steps, successfully water cool a TF/TS100, fit a suitable cylinder as per NZ F4 class rules. Then get it and the ancillaries like frame mounting, digital ignition, 12V generator, water pump all running reliably and sometime next year or the year after when the Ryger details are known, Rygerise it.

No point in sitting around in endless talk waiting until all is revealed when the basics of the project are known and can be started now, laying a solid foundation that is race tested ready for a quick upgrade when the time comes.

[AndreasL]

Some nonsense and insights...

Haven't followed MotoGP for long I felt I needed to get the basics of the rules.
:shit::blink::facepalm::shutup:
Clear as mud and... No, I better stop there.

340km/h is impressive though and a great show it was.

Vinamold (red).
Try it if you haven't yet!
Finally did a intake manifold, intake port, transfers and ex-port.
Super easy to work with and great results first time.

Prepare for a shock though if your porting skills are (down) at my levels. ;)
Good thing is that I now know more or less exactly where to do some fine tuning.

Wonder if replicate all misshapes in EngMod would be a good idea?
Any one that have tried that with beneficial insight and result?

[Flettner]

The Ryger uses a 90 mm C/C rod.You can use a long rod in the Ryger setup, but it is not necessary and it will lead to a rather high engine. And you will need a special piston anyway.

.

Why then if the bottom end is so standard are we not shown inside the crank cases in the picture of the production engines lined up, you know the picture with all the paper towels covering the crankshafts? I wonder if there are several different levels of Rygerisation? And soon we might get to see level one, the level that does indeed use the standard crank.

[Frits Overmars]

Why then if the bottom end is so standard are we not shown inside the crank cases in the picture of the production engines lined up, you know the picture with all the paper towels covering the crankshafts?It's not for me to decide, Neil. But Harry Ryger takes a look here from time to time so maybe he'll react.
BTW: covering open crankcases just serves to keep dust out of the bearings. I bet you've done it yourself more than once.

[jasonu]

BTW: covering open crankcases just serves to keep dust out of the bearings. I bet you've done it yourself more than once.

Except the whole 2 stroke tuner world isn't that interested in seeing the inside of Flettener's engine. (sorry Neil just telling it like I sees it...)

[breezy]

316151 316150

The TF/TS100 is a farm bike engine, the Aprilia RS125 cylinder I had in mind is from a road bike and the RD400 115mm C/C rod is mostly about having enough height to fit a spacer/adaptor plate for the modified TF/TS engines water cooled cylinder.

I was expecting to change the rod when Rygerising the engine. And also replace the TF/TS spacer/adapter plate with the Ryger version. It has been obvious for a while that the Ryger piston will be a bespoke item.

Anyway that is all for later, the first step is to get a TF/TS 100cc air cooled engine into watercooled mode. The basics of the conversion is simple but there is a lot of work in the detail.

The big picture steps, successfully water cool a TF/TS100, fit a suitable cylinder as per NZ F4 class rules. Then get it and the ancillaries like frame mounting, digital ignition, 12V generator, water pump all running reliably and sometime next year or the year after when the Ryger details are known, Rygerise it.

No point in sitting around in endless talk waiting until all is revealed when the basics of the project are known and can be started now, laying a solid foundation that is race tested ready for a quick upgrade when the time comes.



TZ350, what kind of water pump do have in mind? electrical or mechanical? what kind of capacity pump would you think is the minimum requirement. sure the aprilia was massive ltr/min.. im at this point myself and i feel i can only go with the electrical in-line type with the set up i have, but the 12v pumps seem pretty weak on pumping capacity.. what do you reckon?

[adegnes]

TZ350, what kind of water pump do have in mind? electrical or mechanical? what kind of capacity pump would you think is the minimum requirement. sure the aprilia was massive ltr/min.. im at this point myself and i feel i can only go with the electrical in-line type with the set up i have, but the 12v pumps seem pretty weak on pumping capacity.. what do you reckon?

Bosch aux coolant pump found in many Mercs and VWs pumps 25l/min unrestricted @12v, about 1-1.5amp - not bad at all. Don't know how much juice it can handle, but 15v should work, maybe more.

[F5 Dave]

. . .
I was expecting to change the rod when Rygerising the engine. And also replace the TF/TS spacer/adapter plate with the Ryger version. It has been obvious for a while that the Ryger piston will be a bespoke item.
. . . .
Hmm, yes. Bespoke piston. Someone must make it. Maybe a few emails are in order.

Hello sales at Woosner.com, I'd like to order a spare piston for. .
Hello sales at Vertex.com, I'd. . .

You can see where I'm going with this.;)

[peewee]

frits im sure this is a question you can answer. is rygerising a engine something the less smart people like myself will be able to do ? :wings:

[Flettner]

Except the whole 2 stroke tuner world isn't that interested in seeing the inside of Flettener's engine. (sorry Neil just telling it like I sees it...)
Fair enough, next time I show pictures of any of my engines insides, you shut your eyes, OK.

[MotleyCrue]

frits im sure this is a question you can answer. is rygerising a engine something the less smart people like myself will be able to do ? :wings:

Also would Ryger be making some of the parts for us, like a piston and maybe the spacer and whatever it contains? Anybody can get basic machining done to their engine using mills, lathes, porting tools and a welder, but it would be easier (for most of us) to have specialized parts made up, by Ryger. It is their baby I have no problem with paying them for assistance converting an engine to their configuration.

[Grumph]

Hmm, yes. Bespoke piston. Someone must make it. Maybe a few emails are in order.

Hello sales at Woosner.com, I'd like to order a spare piston for. .
Hello sales at Vertex.com, I'd. . .

You can see where I'm going with this.;)

We can indeed Dave....But I reckon you'd get a standard "we're waiting like the rest of the world" response....
My personal pick would be Mahle, you may get a "no comment" there.

[lodgernz]

Just a random thought while we're all thinking about our future Rygerised buckets:
How many road bike clutches (presumably embedded in all genuine buckets) will handle the 50 or 60 or 70 HP we're all hoping for?
How many of us are already struggling with clutch slip at our relatively modest outputs?

[MotleyCrue]

Just a random thought while we're all thinking about our future Rygerised buckets:
How many road bike clutches (presumably embedded in all genuine buckets) will handle the 50 or 60 or 70 HP we're all hoping for?
How many of us are already struggling with clutch slip at our relatively modest outputs?

The power is made by extra rpm not extra torque. A Rygerised top level kart engine might make 70 HP but I bet a Rygerised modest engine comes nowhere near that HP.

[Frits Overmars]

frits im sure this is a question you can answer. is rygerising a engine something the less smart people like myself will be able to do ? I don't know you well enough and I don't want to insult you Peewee.... At the very least you'll need to be able to operate a CNC mill.

[Frits Overmars]

Also would Ryger be making some of the parts for us, like a piston and maybe the spacer and whatever it contains?With the amount of kart engines on order there won't be enough spare production capacity to be able to take orders from privateers.
But there has been talk about producing kits for existing engines. Don't ask me which ones; I'm not sure I'm allowed to answer that, so I won't.

[nitro2tfx]

There are lots of interesting aspects to this engine, from an operational performance perspective. Looking at this further I get the feeling that in addition to what has been mentioned by many as possible construction scenarios for emissions, engine speeds etc., there may also be some "never before published" flow scenarios through the "crankcase" that have not been mentioned on here, something even GP engine designers might have possibly thought of, but dismissed without trying it because on the surface it doesn't seem to make sense. The engine has to be able to move a lot more air to make 70 HP than it does to make 54 HP, irregardless of crankcase/combustion tricks to clean up emissions and so forth. I won't say what I have in mind, but it will be interesting to see what does, or does not, come out in the wash when the full design is made public.

[peewee]

i think im not far from completing the exh portion of this project. the roof exit angle is 34* now but ill flaten it a bit closer to 30* which will put it at the red line. then make the aux back walls a bit deeper and do allittle more work on the small dividers.

frits i dont know the first thing about cnc machines but i bet wobbly does. ill get with him about the necesarry parts needed :laugh:

[wobbly]

That Ex duct exit looks good.
But I think the best deal would be to get the first 1/2 of the duct at 25*, then curve it down slowly to achieve the exit area
you need.
The 25* angle would be more important close to the piston timing edge, than down at the duct end.

[jonny quest]

It would be interesting for someone with enginmod, on a known engine in their files.... to just change crankcase volume to around 25% (in other words... very small volume) of what you currently have setup as. What does that do to sim?

[husaberg]

It would be interesting for someone with enginmod, on a known engine in their files.... to just change crankcase volume to around 25% (in other words... very small volume) of what you currently have setup as. What does that do to sim?

not really sure it would work the sim relies on known principles. and the crankcase being of normal size I suspect is one of the fundementals

What would happen is the power band would narrow and the rpm at which it delivery efficiency would rise at something like a square of the reduction in Crankcase volume.


Thanks Frits


One last bit (I realise you are busy) is the crankcase volume most texts quote the peak speed at which the peak delivery ratio occurs as being inversely proportional to the square root of the crankcase volume (Ie higher revs need lower volume) yet seemingly the modern thinking doesn't follow this, is it about needing a certain reservoir volume available or just better duct flows and directional control nowadays?



Kinda hard to decipher that sentence. Are you sure you cannot write in Dutch, Husa? Anyways, square roots of volumes make me think of Helmholtz resonance. And if memory serves, I posted my 'Helmholtz blues' here not too long ago; you might want to take a look.
Nowadays an engine needs a large crankcase volume (the Aprilia RSA125's is 675 cc at TDC), all the port area you can cram into the cylinder circumference, good ducts for efficient flow and directional control, an exhaust that sucks and blows hard at the appropriate moments, and cooling, cooling, cooling.



It is nearly word for word from Robinson.
I think he was an Editor as well.:laugh:
What it was saying was the last bit (Ie higher revs need lower volume)
Out of respect for you and some others i tend to post in Engerishish.:msn-wink:


I havnt read that book - so I just ordered it in case there is some small golden piece of info, you never know.

Re Blowdown STA numbers and the effect they have.
Firstly get out of your head completely the lawnmower engines view of the world that the piston dropping increases the pressure in the case, and it is this that forces the flow thru the transfers.
Mr Villiers creations may have operated this way - not any modern 2T.
When the transfers open, there is more pressure above the piston than there is case pressure in the transfer duct.
This gives rise to the alarming notion that when using staggered ports, the one to open first has so much backflow that it takes ages to recover, thus it has inflow last.
The area available in the Ex from the time the port cracks, down to where the transfers open, sets the amount of combustion pressure that is lost down the duct, and thus the amount of
positive pressure ratio across the open transfers ( and for how long this lasts ).
We can have NO FLOW until that positive pressure ratio is reduced to the point where we have more case pressure than cylinder pressure.
There are two ways to do this - lift the case pressure and or lower the cylinder pressure.
In a modern engine the case pressure is only rising very slowly due to the piston dropping, but what we do have is the pipe diffuser action, that started with the high pressure front ripping
out the opening Ex port - then entering the expanding pipes front section.
As the piston approaches BDC the Ex port is starting to suck the chrome off the proverbial towball,dropping the cylinder pressure ratio dramatically, and it is this that forces the bulk flow into the cylinder.
If the blowdown is set correctly for the power needed within the rpm band we want, then the recovery time from the unavoidable transfer backflow at the opening point, is such that we get the correct
amount of inflow to be trapped above the piston, thus creating the conditions for the correct amount of combustion pressure after the spark event.
It is this set of conditions - all revolving around the blowdown pressure,that ultimately creates how much combustion psi is developed - this creates torque, and it is this combined with rpm that creates POWER.


I just read my origional post that Frits responded to and i see it had a rather crude spelling mistake that may have confused as it would not have translated so well to Dutch the French word "reservoir" pardon my engerish:Oops:This is a neat word to describe what bucket is saying above.

Does that make more sense Frits.
The bit i was quoting from Robinson was referring to when a engine was tuned to a higher rev range than it was original to maintain the original pumping efficiency you reduce the volume by an amount specified (inversely proportional to the square root of the original crankcase volume) to match the new higher rev range.
assuming say you don't want to modify the angles and shapes of the transfers or if you have say downsized or upsized an engine?

however Robinson does a couple of chapters later say

1)high stream velocity

:High crankcase compression
:Narrow port windows
:Late timing (Long blow down period)

2)Low(er) stream velocity

:earlier timing,larger ports
: Direction(s) of streams become critical.

So i guess he had a ball in both courts as it were. but the 2nd option is the modern approach?or slightly different again?


It already made (some) sense the first time; as a former technical editor I am used to reading what people try to write instead of what they are actually writing.
And I do not translate anything to and from Dutch; In my mind I stick with the language that is being used.

Crankcase pumping only serves to start the engine; once it is running in the power band you can forget all about pumping efficiency.

Why don't we then close the port windows completely? That should give us infinite stream velocity, right? Yeah, right.... If you want velocity, you need a pressure differential. But we do not want velocity per sé; we want mass transportation (no, I'm not talking about public transport) so that means ample time.areas.


Supercharging by definition is a method to increase the efficiency of an engine by using an external device that creates a higher delivery ratio,than that able to be achieved by the swept volume alone.
This can use energy within the Exhaust gas flow as is done by a Turbocharger.
It can use crank power to drive a pump, that creates more power at the crank than it consumes - a Supercharger.
Or - you can use sonic wave action in a divergent/convergent pipe,that uses that energy to evacuate and then refill the cylinder to a higher level than the swept volume alone could achieve - a Sonic Supercharger.
Next is Chemical Supercharging - where the fuel contains excess oxygen than that contained in the swept volume of air.

[karter444]

That Ex duct exit looks good.
But I think the best deal would be to get the first 1/2 of the duct at 25*, then curve it down slowly to achieve the exit area
you need.
The 25* angle would be more important close to the piston timing edge, than down at the duct end.
Wobbly what would happen if you took this concept one step further and made the exhaust duct exit really wide ie maybe wider than the bore size [it would require external welding to barrel to allow widening of aux ducts ]and then reduced the height of the duct exit so you could end up with say an exhaust duct exit dimension of 55mm x 15 mm

[adegnes]

i think im not far from completing the exh portion of this project. the roof exit angle is 34* now but ill flaten it a bit closer to 30* which will put it at the red line. then make the aux back walls a bit deeper and do allittle more work on the small dividers.

frits i dont know the first thing about cnc machines but i bet wobbly does. ill get with him about the necesarry parts needed :laugh:

Lookin' good!


.... I won't say what I have in mind....

That's the spirit!

[gravmax88]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF9nBjgcX3E
:banana:

[wobbly]

The super wide Ex duct idea suffers from one fatal flaw.
Trying to get any sort of reasonable shaped transition from 55X15 out to say 45 round at the header would be a flow detaching nightmare.
I have heard but not seen, that Aprilia had tested keeping the outflow flow biased toward helping the blowdown action of the Aux ducts
by oval shaping the beginning of the header as well.
Thus the transition was even smoother within the short slip fit spigot length.
Sounds good in theory, but I have never had a go at the idea.

[F5 Dave]

[QUOTE=gravmax88;1130906784]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF9nBj (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF9nBjgcX3E)/QUOTE]
So the karting was just a red herring. That was feckn funny. And impressive.

[TZ350]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF9nBj (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF9nBjgcX3E)
So the karting was just a red herring. That was feckn funny. And impressive.

Pretty impressive alright.

[jonny quest]

Husaberg, that was going to be my point later on... sims are based off of known values.

So does anyweird anomaly still work in the sims?

I have a feeling one of the tricks of the Ryger is a tiny tiny "crankcase" volume (which will probably be called under piston volume from now on, or primary compression, because crankcase is now separate)

[seattle smitty]

(EDIT)-- post deleted

[adegnes]

Frits, I know of no way to get this to your friend other than to ask you to pass it along:

Mr. Ryger,

I am taking it upon myself to put this to you on behalf of the tiny sport of outboard hydroplane racing. Ours is an almost entirely amateur, in-crowd activity (despite its ironically humorous name in the USA of Professional Outboard Racing). In contrast with other forms of powerboat racing that use big V-6 engines built by big corporations, we use motorcycle-sized engines, currently from 125cc to 1100cc, burning alcohol and possibly other exotic fuels, and with few limitations as compared with motorcycle or kart racing. This has always been a sport that appeals to hands-on amateur tuners and modifiers. Although most of us have run highly modified engines from Mercury and OMC, or racing engines from such companies as Konig, Anzani, Quincy, Crescent, and Yamato, many have converted motorcycle and snowmobile engines into outboards. Currently, our manufactured engines are coming from Giuseppe Rossi and Carlo Verona in Italy, both of whom do high-quality work, and Konny in eastern Europe who bought the Konig operation.

With that introduction (our sport is so small that I am guessing you have little knowledge of it), I would like you to consider a request. Your new engine, by all we are hearing, is likely to immediately make all of our existing motors obsolete, and require any racer who intends to be competitive to either attempt to build an engine of your design in his own shop, or to wait for a small manufacturer such as Rossi or Verona to start building Ryger-design outboards with a license from you. I would be surprised if one or both of these individuals hasn't contacted you already.

Please consider that it would surely be best for us amateur outboard racers if no single outboard builder were awarded an exclusive license to build your engine . . . for all the reasons that will immediately occur to you.

Remember, this is a very small sport, and whether you license one or more than one manufacturer, the royalties won't amount to much in any case. Your design appears to be such a breakthrough, with great potential beyond the little world of motor-racing, that big corporations will soon come calling and all of your years of work will ultimately be well-repaid. All of us 2-stroke fans are hoping this will happen.

Thank you for considering this,

--Phil Smith,
Seattle, Washington State, USA

Word. (too short)

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, I know of no way to get this to your friend other than to ask you to pass it alongIt would be my pleasure Smitty. But I don't wish to be the middleman in your correspondence, so it would be better if you mail him directly.
EDIT I see you've got his email now.

[seattle smitty]

Thanks, Frits; I'll try it. I'll see if I can delete it here (Adegnes, I don't understand what you're trying to tell me).

[2005bully]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF9nBjgcX3E
:banana:

The "canoe" in the video appears to be a Taiwan Long Boat.... I have talked to individuals that race these things in Taiwan. Was told its a sport that is kind of off the charts, strictly amateur, but finding huge popularity in some regions. Below is a link with a little more info.

http://www.john-tom.com/Klong16/LongTail.html

Kermit Buller

[Peiter]

Hi guys,

after reading this thread almost daily for more than half a year and seeing so many interesting projects, I really thought I should start sharing my project with you instead of just reading and not contributing :).
However, I really don't know where to start so I'll just drop into the middle of it. Together with a friend (who is the driver), we compete in the dutch 150m dragracing / sprint championship 70cc shifter class.

The bike was originally a 2007 derbi GPR which we modified to make it lighter and more powerful. Currently, the weight is at about 47 kg with approximately 27 - 27.5 hp and we are doing the 150m from a stand still in 6.71 seconds.
For next year however, we would like to go faster, therefore (and to learn more about 2 strokes), we are in the process of making our own cylinder.
I have made multiple silicone prints of the transfers and exhaust of a honda 125 a-kit and an RSA and tried to mix it all up with the comments from Frits and Wobbly.
The cylinder has been drawn in a CAD program and 3D printed in PLA after which it was cast in aluminum by using investment casting. At this moment I am machining the raw cast piece and making an adapter plate / head inserts, etc.

For now I think this is enough before my post becomes confusing. In the attachments I have posted a picture of the bike, the cylinder, its mold and the cylinder during the investment casting process and the power curve :)

cheers,

Peter

[jonny quest]

^^ very cool! ^^

[adegnes]

Hi guys,

after reading this thread almost daily for more than half a year and seeing so many interesting projects, I really thought I should start sharing my project with you instead of just reading and not contributing :).
However, I really don't know where to start so I'll just drop into the middle of it. Together with a friend (who is the driver), we compete in the dutch 150m dragracing / sprint championship 70cc shifter class.

The bike was originally a 2007 derbi GPR which we modified to make it lighter and more powerful. Currently, the weight is at about 47 kg with approximately 27 - 27.5 hp and we are doing the 150m from a stand still in 6.71 seconds.
For next year however, we would like to go faster, therefore (and to learn more about 2 strokes), we are in the process of making our own cylinder.
I have made multiple silicone prints of the transfers and exhaust of a honda 125 a-kit and an RSA and tried to mix it all up with the comments from Frits and Wobbly.
The cylinder has been drawn in a CAD program and 3D printed in PLA after which it was cast in aluminum by using investment casting. At this moment I am machining the raw cast piece and making an adapter plate / head inserts, etc.

For now I think this is enough before my post becomes confusing. In the attachments I have posted a picture of the bike, the cylinder, its mold and the cylinder during the investment casting process and the power curve :)

cheers,

Peter


^^ very cool! ^^

Second that! Great job, looks mean!
I love purpose built no compromise stuff almost as much as frankenbikes!
What's the tape on the front rim for? Aerodynamics?

[jonny quest]

I saw that tape, and wondered the same. ... but really curious as to why you installed drum brakes? Less weight?

[Peiter]

Thanks guys!

Actually Adegnes, years ago the competition started out as street mopeds / buckets.
However, the compitition has progressed and because I'm a mechanical engineer, I love to make strength and weight calculations to gain every possible ounce :d.

The tape in the front wheel is to ensure the optical sensors don't shine through the wheel at the start.
The time registration system was build for original tires which were much higher, therefore the system doesn't cope well with our wheel :).

Here is a movie of a test drive
https://www.facebook.com/sprintperformancedutch/videos/vb.438768362945043/576158195872725/?type=2&theater

Peter

[MotleyCrue]

On the Ryger maybe its not high crankcase compression at all, maybe there is no crankcase compression. Firing off a 2 stroke with no crankcase compression is not a problem with just a simple addition, and running in the powerband with no crankcase compression is possible (24/7).

But idling with no crankcase compression and a normal 2 stroke exhaust I'm not sure that would work, I'm guessing it wouldn't, but I never tried it. I bet there is a way to do it though. More thought required.

[breezy]

Bosch aux coolant pump found in many Mercs and VWs pumps 25l/min unrestricted @12v, about 1-1.5amp - not bad at all. Don't know how much juice it can handle, but 15v should work, maybe more.

Good call adegnes:clap:. theres one on its way to me... had heard of people using the merc window washer motor and bottle. but the auxiliary coolant pump should be better.. thanks.:niceone:

[TZ350]

Page 1310 .....


After reading some of the content in the ESE thread, I've become really inspired to take a closer look at hydroforming chambers.

Continuing the celebration of other peoples home built bikes.

316210

Kel


Slow progress going on here, but progress none the less.
Crank has been rebuilt (thanks Rob for your time and patience). Unfortunately I ended up having to use the same length rod that was being used previously as the longer genuine Yamaha rod had no slots at the big end, WTF. So the trusty TKRJ 100mm rod has gone back in but with an RGV flat cage big end bearing.

Coated piston is back.
309480
Cost $97 for coating to skirt and ceramic coating to crown. Turns out all that's need for the squish band mask is the heavy type of vinyl that sign writers use, oh well we know for next time.

One of the problems with getting real power out of the KE is the inlet area, i.e. the rotary disc is too small.
309481
Seems we have solved the problem.
309482
Its a custom disc made to the max size for the original disc cover!
The Oring of the disc cover will need to be machined out meaning sealing will just be from sealant around the outer edge of the cover which isn't ideal.
309483
309484
The mod is worth an extra couple of horsepower, or more to the point the inlet time area can now match the rest of the motors timing.
Still some more grinding to do in the cases but Im getting there.

p.s. This is buckets as it should be; epoxy, grinding, bouncing around ideas with your mates, and some back yard engineering. Not a bolt up kit part to be found.


I've been working hard at trying to manage the motors heat. Wrapped the exhaust, added a 2mm copper spacer under the barrel (replacing the ali one) and formed it into a cylinder shroud. Sand blasted cylinder, head and cases and applied a very thin coat of flat black. Insulated under the fuel tank and the fuel lines and added a ram air to the air box (this added 1hp on the dyno with the fans feeding it).
I grabbed a thermal imaging camera from work to log the race temp and hopefully get some shots/info from the other air cooled 2 strokes
Took the bike to the track and it ran like a pig, a quick jaunt over to team head quarters and all fixed (thanks Rob :niceone:) Managed to get back to the track to get a couple of races in but pretty much forgot about the camera :facepalm:

The one lot of photos I took were after a practice session, head temp of 96 degrees
293451

So the jury is out on whether all the work has been worth while but the bike was embarrassingly fast and survived a very hot afternoon without drama.

[F5 Dave]

Thanks guys!

Actually Adegnes, years ago the competition started out as street mopeds / buckets.
However, the compitition has progressed and because I'm a mechanical engineer, I love to make strength and weight calculations to gain every possible ounce :d.

The tape in the front wheel is to ensure the optical sensors don't shine through the wheel at the start.
The time registration system was build for original tires which were much higher, therefore the system doesn't cope well with our wheel :).

Here is a movie of a test drive
https://www.facebook.com/sprintperformancedutch/videos/vb.438768362945043/576158195872725/?type=2&theater

Peter
That is like super iimpressive.

[jonny quest]

I saw that tape, and wondered the same. ... but really curious as to why you installed drum brakes? Less weight?

[Flettner]

On the Ryger maybe its not high crankcase compression at all, maybe there is no crankcase compression. Firing off a 2 stroke with no crankcase compression is not a problem with just a simple addition, and running in the powerband with no crankcase compression is possible (24/7).

But idling with no crankcase compression and a normal 2 stroke exhaust I'm not sure that would work, I'm guessing it wouldn't, but I never tried it. I bet there is a way to do it though. More thought required.

I believe there is a twostroke Kart engine in Perth (you know, Australia) that will sart and run with no crank case.

[MotleyCrue]

I believe there is a twostroke Kart engine in Perth (you know, Australia) that will sart and run with no crank case.

Cool. Anyone have a link or know anything specific about it. Is it competitive?

[TZ350]

313908313909313910313905313906313907

A “ROUGH AS GUTS” EXPERIMENT Part 1

The question is, what happens when you:
1. Get a 100 cc ARC piston port kart engine, essentially very similar and with many interchangeable parts with the Yamaha KT100S kart engine, and connect an A port to atmosphere via a filled in passage to a flanged face. Height of the port is unchanged from the original engine.
2. However, when at TDC, there is a direct passage (something we don’t want, do we?) to the crankcase via the cut-out in the side of a regular piston
3. So we weld a small piece into this side of the piston to block it off and while we are there we’ll drill a series of holes into the rear of piston to vent thru the open piston port inlet so there’ll be no great pressure fluctuations in the crankcase


Part 2 coming


313911313912313913313914


A “ROUGH AS GUTS” EXPERIMENT Part 2

4. So there’s no influence due to extraneous cylinder connected volumes in the upper cavities of the blocked off transfer passages (1 * A & 2 * B), we fill these flush with Silastic
5. Then we bolt it all together with a carb, but with no exhaust system
6. Crank it over with a few squirts of oil into the crankcase, check it out and it is all nice and oily, as one would expect with a wet sump.
7. Fill the carb with fuel only (no oil), ignition on and crank it over.

Simple really and I did say “rough as guts”.

WODDAEWESREKKON happens then?


If you keep that direct passage, the transfer windows can double as piston controlled inlet ports and you could feed a rear transfer port from the crankcase.
But since you don't want that, I assume that you wanted to completely exclude the crankcase from the mixture flow. I then also assume that there's a puddle of oil in the crankcase to keep the bearings happy. EDIT: only now did I see your second post: a puddle it is.What's wrong with pressure fluctuations in the crankcase? The built-up pressure that tries to prevent the piston from moving down, will be helping it again on the way up. I anticipate a lot of pumping losses and a lot of oil mist escaping through those drilled holes.
To comfort you, here's a picture to show you that you're not the only one suffering from ludicrous ideas :msn-wink:.
313915

I think these are the posts.


Here is good search function using google, originally posted in ESE thread 749 page

Follow Muciek's link to Seattle Smittys thread on how to data mine the ESE thread for all the good info.

[Frits Overmars]

I have a feeling one of the tricks of the Ryger is a tiny tiny "crankcase" volume (which will probably be called under piston volume from now on, or primary compression, because crankcase is now separate)Primary compression will do fine, Jonny.


Good call adegnes. theres one on its way to me... had heard of people using the merc window washer motor and bottle. but the auxiliary coolant pump should be better.. thanks.Intercooler pumps from turbo engines may be better still. And you'll find them at your local wrecker's.

[MotleyCrue]

TZ350 Thanks for the info and the better search info.

Blocking things off wasnt what I was thinking, in fact kind of the opposite, but I gather it runs that way so thats good to know.

Once in the powerband all that crankcase action is stuck in the way between the exhaust and the carb. Crankcase pumping alone can only move a percentage of the air that needs to be moved no matter how big or small the crankcase is.

[adegnes]

Thanks, Frits; I'll try it. I'll see if I can delete it here (Adegnes, I don't understand what you're trying to tell me).

What I ment was; Well said, I agree! And the "too short" part was because "word." was under ten characters thereby too short to be posted

[2005bully]

On the Ryger maybe its not high crankcase compression at all, maybe there is no crankcase compression. Firing off a 2 stroke with no crankcase compression is not a problem with just a simple addition, and running in the powerband with no crankcase compression is possible (24/7).

But idling with no crankcase compression and a normal 2 stroke exhaust I'm not sure that would work, I'm guessing it wouldn't, but I never tried it. I bet there is a way to do it though. More thought required.


That is what was described on page 1304 post#19551...

Maybe different verbiage would make it clearer??? The basics are like this....... Call it a Secondary chamber, stagnate crank case, Or what ever. The lower chamber connected to the transfer ports is nothing more than a passage that connects the transfer ports and reed cage together. NO communication with any part of the crankcase is present. The mixture starts moving out of the transfers into the cylinder aided by pipe suction, this suction is felt at the reed tips as a pressure differential. When this differential becomes lower than atmosphere the reeds open and admit the fresh mixture. At the end of each transfer cycle as the suction from the pipe becomes diminished, the velocity built up within the intake and transfer ports continue to keep the mixture flowing. That is the basic assumption... Low rpm torque would be quite low. But there is no doubt in my mind with the basic assumptions above it would run at very hi rpm's.


But how would it be started. Maybe with some type of temp. communication with the conventional crank case. Or maybe by the injection of a separate mixture supply, A one-way compression release in the head might be enough to get something moving. Especially if it were aided with a one way valve (pulse jet type) in the exhaust.

Years back we conducted an experiment where a stainless steel reed valve was placed at the end of the expansion chamber. The reasoning at the time was that any back flow of gasses that existed in the stinger area was creating pumping losses that had to be overcome by the next power pulse. It showed some promise but the material used for the reed petals was to short lived to get any hard data. But in a "velocity" 2 stroke as described above, there may be reason to expand on that concept.

Kermit Buller

[Flettner]

That is what was described on page 1304 post#19551...

Maybe different verbiage would make it clearer??? The basics are like this....... Call it a Secondary chamber, stagnate crank case, Or what ever. The lower chamber connected to the transfer ports is nothing more than a passage that connects the transfer ports and reed cage together. NO communication with any part of the crankcase is present. The mixture starts moving out of the transfers into the cylinder aided by pipe suction, this suction is felt at the reed tips as a pressure differential. When this differential becomes lower than atmosphere the reeds open and admit the fresh mixture. At the end of each transfer cycle as the suction from the pipe becomes diminished, the velocity built up within the intake and transfer ports continue to keep the mixture flowing. That is the basic assumption... Low rpm torque would be quite low. But there is no doubt in my mind with the basic assumptions above it would run at very hi rpm's.


But how would it be started. Maybe with some type of temp. communication with the conventional crank case. Or maybe by the injection of a separate mixture supply, A one-way compression release in the head might be enough to get something moving. Especially if it were aided with a one way valve (pulse jet type) in the exhaust.

Years back we conducted an experiment where a stainless steel reed valve was placed at the end of the expansion chamber. The reasoning at the time was that any back flow of gasses that existed in the stinger area was creating pumping losses that had to be overcome by the next power pulse. It showed some promise but the material used for the reed petals was to short lived to get any hard data. But in a "velocity" 2 stroke as described above, there may be reason to expand on that concept.

Kermit Buller

I did think that the video of the Ryger Kart engine running (poor quality sound!) sounded very loboured at low rev's, although it was hard to tell.

[MotleyCrue]

That is what was described on page 1304 post#19551...

Maybe different verbiage would make it clearer??? The basics are like this....... Call it a Secondary chamber, stagnate crank case, Or what ever. The lower chamber connected to the transfer ports is nothing more than a passage that connects the transfer ports and reed cage together. NO communication with any part of the crankcase is present. The mixture starts moving out of the transfers into the cylinder aided by pipe suction, this suction is felt at the reed tips as a pressure differential. When this differential becomes lower than atmosphere the reeds open and admit the fresh mixture. At the end of each transfer cycle as the suction from the pipe becomes diminished, the velocity built up within the intake and transfer ports continue to keep the mixture flowing. That is the basic assumption... Low rpm torque would be quite low. But there is no doubt in my mind with the basic assumptions above it would run at very hi rpm's.


But how would it be started. Maybe with some type of temp. communication with the conventional crank case. Or maybe by the injection of a separate mixture supply, A one-way compression release in the head might be enough to get something moving. Especially if it were aided with a one way valve (pulse jet type) in the exhaust.

Years back we conducted an experiment where a stainless steel reed valve was placed at the end of the expansion chamber. The reasoning at the time was that any back flow of gasses that existed in the stinger area was creating pumping losses that had to be overcome by the next power pulse. It showed some promise but the material used for the reed petals was to short lived to get any hard data. But in a "velocity" 2 stroke as described above, there may be reason to expand on that concept.

Kermit Buller



I like your idea but it wasnt quite what I was thinking of though.

There are any number of simple ways to start the engine, keeping it going without stalling would be my biggest worry. Once it stalls the whole thing is full of exhaust so there would have to be a way to push some air back into it for the restart.

[2005bully]

I did think that the video of the Ryger Kart engine running (poor quality sound!) sounded very loboured at low rev's, although it was hard to tell.

Yes...Another one of the clues. For sure we have not (and most likely won't) hit on the exact details employed by Mr. Ryger.

[MotleyCrue]

I tried the Google search method to find the Ryger video but no luck. Anyone have a link to the video ?

[Muciek]

https://www.facebook.com/mcd.twist.9?fref=ts

Here
https://www.facebook.com/mcd.twist.9/videos/2046265392136991/

[MotleyCrue]

https://www.facebook.com/mcd.twist.9?fref=ts

Here
https://www.facebook.com/mcd.twist.9/videos/2046265392136991/

Thanks.


A question for Frits. Once the patent info becomes publicly available, would it be easier for individuals to modify their existing engines to get just the power increase and ignore changes that are related to the other benefits (emissions, fuel economy), or do the emissions, fuel economy and power increase all have to go hand in hand ?

Certainly cleaning up 2 stroke emissions is a great thing, but with limited resources and almost certainly no Ryger kits for some engines, an individual might just be stuck with what they have already, but at least achieving the Ryger design power benefit would be something to look forward to for the near term, until suitable products with Ryger style engines become widely available.

[2005bully]

I like your idea but it wasnt quite what I was thinking of though.

There are any number of simple ways to start the engine, keeping it going without stalling would be my biggest worry. Once it stalls the whole thing is full of exhaust so there would have to be a way to push some air back into it for the restart.

Yes... But isn't stalled the same as not running. What such a motor needs to start or "not stall" is an method of initiating the pressure differential's, preferably at a low rpm. I agree there are any number of simple methods that could be employed, But one that does not adversely effect Hi rpm performance greatly complicates the simplicity. Maybe a solution exists in the employment of the other 5 or 6 ducts.
Kermit Buller

[Frits Overmars]

https://www.facebook.com/mcd.twist.9/videos/2046265392136991/That video was sh!t (but better cameras are on the way). The only thing you could clearly see were the protruding manhole covers in the middle of the road :facepalm:.
The remaining useful part of the asphalt becomes damn narrow at 20.000 rpm :shit:


... would it be easier for individuals to modify their existing engines to get just the power increase and ignore changes that are related to the other benefits (emissions, fuel economy), or do the emissions, fuel economy and power increase all have to go hand in hand ?You will only get the power if you get the scavenging and the combustion right, and then the fuel economy and the emissions will come automatically.

[lodgernz]

Perhaps the primary compression chamber is quite small, much smaller in volume than the engine capacity, but still acting as a pump at low speeds to get enough gas in to run the thing until it gets on the pipe. Then the pipe takes over and the volume of the compression chamber becomes unimportant, as long as it can flow well enough to allow good filling.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Well not exactly two stroke tuning, but some more footage of a two stroke taking on the field of 4 bangers.

Interesting to notice how when I catch up to Leigh Tidman on his RS450 (RS125 chassis with a YZF450 motor) how much he jumps off the turns. Unfortunately I had only just got my new rear wheel in the week prior to this race weekend and I didn't have a chance to get new sprockets that fit so had to run the bike totally over geared. Even though my peak power is near on 20hp more than the RS450, he is making the same amount of power from just off idle to max rpm. I was running from 2nd gear and just briefly into 5th at the end of the straight. Next time im going to gear it to use 3rd to 6th as the ratios are much closer. Maximum speed on the short Taupo track is only 170kph vs 210kph we usually see at Manfeild.

Feel free to critique away.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBDMkDikDD0

[MotleyCrue]

Yes... But isn't stalled the same as not running. What such a motor needs to start or "not stall" is an method of initiating the pressure differential's, preferably at a low rpm. I agree there are any number of simple methods that could be employed, But one that does not adversely effect Hi rpm performance greatly complicates the simplicity. Maybe a solution exists in the employment of the other 5 or 6 ducts.
Kermit Buller


I don't know that it would stall after starting.

Lots of engines stall, even 4 strokes, the difference here would be that if it did stall, the exhaust gas would have to be removed from the cylinder before restarting.

You could be right maybe simply having a couple transfers running from the crankcase would be enough to get the thing started, prevent stalling, and not really adversely affect hi rpm performance. I cant see needing 5 or 6 transfers just to get it started but maybe having 5 or 6 transfers from the crankcase helps the low to mid rpm.

[2005bully]

Perhaps the primary compression chamber is quite small, much smaller in volume than the engine capacity, but still acting as a pump at low speeds to get enough gas in to run the thing until it gets on the pipe. Then the pipe takes over and the volume of the compression chamber becomes unimportant, as long as it can flow well enough to allow good filling.

Lodgernz.... One side effect of a very high primary compression ratio is that the transfer mixture enters the cylinder at higher velocity. This increases the incoming mixtures chance of intermixing with residual ex gasses. But it certainly would create a low pressure in the ports immediately after the mixture was uploaded to the cylinder. Separating the engines lubrication oil from the fuel and still using crankcase methods of pumping is not a simple exercise. A diaphragm between the crankcase and a secondary transfer chamber might be one of the simplest possibilities. If such a diaphragm had limited displacement it might get the whole process started, while limiting its negative effects at higher rpm's. But adding movable parts goes against keeping it simple. Stumped....

[MotleyCrue]

You will only get the power if you get the scavenging and the combustion right, and then the fuel economy and the emissions will come automatically.


Just thinking out loud here.

Since torque is no greater than for a regular top level 125, then combustion wouldn't really be better in the sense of creating more torque, unless ........... combustion is a little better and scavenging is a little worse so net torque is pretty much unchanged.


The engine can only at best retain in the cylinder what its able to get to the cylinder in the first place, so the overall flow through the 30 mm carb has to be more, quite a bit more, at 17000 rpm than at 13500 rpm. The only thing creating a big suction is the exhaust so the exhaust must be "seeing" the carb better or for more time (or both), than in a regular engine.

In order to have good emissions and economy, the scavenging must be such that any and all air/fuel getting into the exhaust port gets shoved back into the cylinder, easy enough when the engine is on the pipe but not obvious how this would be done at low engine speeds, part throttle, idling. Maybe figuring that part out is the real key to this riddle and the rest is gravy. I dont remember any poster's suggestion addressing this aspect but maybe I haven't read far enough back.

[jonny quest]

Did I miss where it was posted that the torque of the Ryger is that of a top level 125, and no greater?

[jonny quest]

If "primary compression" isn't really a pump anymore, the velocity wouldn't be very high anymore.

And if it's not a pump anymore. .. it really shouldn't be called primary compression ratio anymore, should it Frits?

I am just egging you on now Frits 😉

[MotleyCrue]

Did I miss where it was posted that the torque of the Ryger is that of a top level 125, and no greater?


I'm pretty sure Frits said is was slightly less than the Aprilia and that the Aprilia still holds the "title". Might have been posted on a different forum though.

[lodgernz]

Lodgernz.... One side effect of a very high primary compression ratio is that the transfer mixture enters the cylinder at higher velocity. This increases the incoming mixtures chance of intermixing with residual ex gasses. But it certainly would create a low pressure in the ports immediately after the mixture was uploaded to the cylinder. Separating the engines lubrication oil from the fuel and still using crankcase methods of pumping is not a simple exercise. A diaphragm between the crankcase and a secondary transfer chamber might be one of the simplest possibilities. If such a diaphragm had limited displacement it might get the whole process started, while limiting its negative effects at higher rpm's. But adding movable parts goes against keeping it simple. Stumped....

You misunderstood me, or I didn't make myself clear. I'm not talking about a high primary CR, I'm saying that maybe the primary compression chamber only sucks in a small amount of gas.
For example, if the engine capacity (swept volume) is 125cc, maybe the primary compression chamber only sucks in 30cc, then pokes that up through the transfers at a normal sort of rate, depending on the physical size of the chamber, let's say 50cc. Once the motor is on the pipe, the volume of the chamber is less important as the pipe will be pulling the mix through it, especially if it has a shitload of transfers...

Forget about diaphragms. Crankcase isolation will be via the piston, whatever that may look like.

[2005bully]

You misunderstood me, or I didn't make myself clear. I'm not talking about a high primary CR, I'm saying that maybe the primary compression chamber only sucks in a small amount of gas.
For example, if the engine capacity (swept volume) is 125cc, maybe the primary compression chamber only sucks in 30cc, then pokes that up through the transfers at a normal sort of rate, depending on the physical size of the chamber, let's say 50cc. Once the motor is on the pipe, the volume of the chamber is less important as the pipe will be pulling the mix through it, especially if it has a shitload of transfers...

Forget about diaphragms. Crankcase isolation will be via the piston, whatever that may look like.


I'm confused ...... If the primary compression chambers pressure is directly influenced by piston movement what limits the volume sucked in to the example of 30cc. Then where does the extra 20cc come from when it pokes up through the transfers? On the other hand if the primary compression chamber is not directly influenced by the pistons movement then what causes this chamber to produce any draw? Excuse my miss understanding.... What am I missing here.

[seattle smitty]

Am I wrong in thinking that Frits disclosed what might be THE essential hint about 15 pages ago, and that the discussion has remained somewhat peripheral to that hint? Top of page 1295 . . . detonation . . . ???????

[husaberg]

You misunderstood me, or I didn't make myself clear. I'm not talking about a high primary CR, I'm saying that maybe the primary compression chamber only sucks in a small amount of gas.
For example, if the engine capacity (swept volume) is 125cc, maybe the primary compression chamber only sucks in 30cc, then pokes that up through the transfers at a normal sort of rate, depending on the physical size of the chamber, let's say 50cc. Once the motor is on the pipe, the volume of the chamber is less important as the pipe will be pulling the mix through it, especially if it has a shitload of transfers...

Forget about diaphragms. Crankcase isolation will be via the piston, whatever that may look like.

Ill bite, How do you separate the crankcase with just a piston. Whist still maintaining a pumping chamber?

[lodgernz]

Yes, it was Honda's ARC (Activated Radical Combustion). The Honda EXP2 had an exhaust power valve that could severely restrict blowdown, so a lot of hot residual exhaust gas remained in the cylinder where it mixed with the next charge of fresh mixture, heating this mixture so it would self-ignite at the end of the compression phase. In Honda's case this only came into play at part-throttle. The Ryger is cleverer: it does not need an exhaust power valve at all and it works at WOT too.
315837315836

Certainly looks like a hint Smitty :confused:

[lodgernz]

I'm confused ...... If the primary compression chambers pressure is directly influenced by piston movement what limits the volume sucked in to the example of 30cc. Then where does the extra 20cc come from when it pokes up through the transfers? On the other hand if the primary compression chamber is not directly influenced by the pistons movement then what causes this chamber to produce any draw? Excuse my miss understanding.... What am I missing here.


Ill bite, How do you separate the crankcase with just a piston. Whist still maintaining a pumping chamber?

I was thinking maybe a stepped piston?

[jonny quest]

Top hat. Brim down.

And could this brim also close the transfers to prevent flow out the exhaust? Could this piston have a mission for emissions?

[peewee]

In order to have good emissions and economy, the scavenging must be such that any and all air/fuel getting into the exhaust port gets shoved back into the cylinder,

or maybe no unburnt a/f ever makes it to the pipe (or escapes the cylinder, which ever way you want to look at it), which might be what frits was suggesting on pg1295 :clap:

[husaberg]

I was thinking maybe a stepped piston?

Already ruled out as supercharged.
FIM says 2 diameter pistons are illegal from memory

[Flettner]

Top hat. Brim down.

And could this brim also close the transfers to prevent flow out the exhaust? Could this piston have a mission for emissions?

No, other way up. So the pumping volume is the difference between the large size and the small size. So it will be less than 125cc.

[peewee]

i keep thinking that somehow the unburnt mixture is prevented from escaping the cylinder. how else could a 2t have such good emissions and still look like a traditional engine ?

[d2t]

The cylinder has been drawn in a CAD program and 3D printed in PLA after which it was cast in aluminum by using investment casting. At this moment I am machining the raw cast piece and making an adapter plate / head inserts, etc.


Looks very interesting. I am following the same process although a few steps behind you. I'm curious if the 3D printed PLA must be "finished" in some way to smooth the layers or is that taken care of after casting (by machining in some way)? I don't yet have privileges to send PMs on this forum but please keep me updated on the build and show share some pictures when you finish machining the cylinder.

[mr bucketracer]

Well not exactly two stroke tuning, but some more footage of a two stroke taking on the field of 4 bangers.

Interesting to notice how when I catch up to Leigh Tidman on his RS450 (RS125 chassis with a YZF450 motor) how much he jumps off the turns. Unfortunately I had only just got my new rear wheel in the week prior to this race weekend and I didn't have a chance to get new sprockets that fit so had to run the bike totally over geared. Even though my peak power is near on 20hp more than the RS450, he is making the same amount of power from just off idle to max rpm. I was running from 2nd gear and just briefly into 5th at the end of the straight. Next time im going to gear it to use 3rd to 6th as the ratios are much closer. Maximum speed on the short Taupo track is only 170kph vs 210kph we usually see at Manfeild.

Feel free to critique away.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBDMkDikDD0what did you call guys that dont blipp the throttle lol(-: good race , just picked up a nsr engine my self , did i do the right thing now lol

[F5 Dave]

Pesky little blighter isn't he, but Taupo is a bit of a goat track and it seems like he can track real well out of the shortcut where there's a fair bump on the exit, and crucially onto the front straight.

Fair blasts past people at the start. Does it stay in a reasonable heat range throughout?

[Grumph]

Ill bite, How do you separate the crankcase with just a piston. Whist still maintaining a pumping chamber?

Well historically it's always been an external pump...
The long piston with a ring or rings on the bottom sealing the crankcase off has been done many times before - and is still being done on big 2 stroke diesels.
This enables the use of full pressure lubrication.
I still come back to what I pointed out a long ways back, it would seem that it's only what's in the transfers that gets to the combustion chamber on any given power stroke. And that is drawn there by pressure differential...Which in a conventional layout also recharges the primary space - crankcase and transfers.
If Harry ( he seems like an old friend now...) has found a way of refilling the primary space that we haven't thought of, I'm looking forward to seeing it.

[husaberg]

i keep thinking that somehow the unburnt mixture is prevented from escaping the cylinder. how else could a 2t have such good emissions and still look like a traditional engine ?

One way would be by purge scavenging as a Detroit diesel does with fresh air rather than unburnt mixture, another would be by excluding oil from the mixture burnt.

Well historically it's always been an external pump...
The long piston with a ring or rings on the bottom sealing the crankcase off has been done many times before - and is still being done on big 2 stroke diesels.
This enables the use of full pressure lubrication.
I still come back to what I pointed out a long ways back, it would seem that it's only what's in the transfers that gets to the combustion chamber on any given power stroke. And that is drawn there by pressure differential...Which in a conventional layout also recharges the primary space - crankcase and transfers.
If Harry ( he seems like an old friend now...) has found a way of refilling the primary space that we haven't thought of, I'm looking forward to seeing it.

but a one diameter piston. it would entail a internal piston shaped dye sealed off at bdc otherwise the mixture would remain stagnant there.

[Grumph]

but a one diameter piston. it would entail a internal piston shaped dye sealed off at bdc otherwise the mixture would remain stagnant there.

If as i suspect, it's only breathing through the transfers, there's no mixture going under the piston at all.

I'd point out that the homologation papers say one exhaust port....If it's only refilling the transfer duct volume, it wouldn't need the very big depression that is used to refill the crankcase volume, so one port should suffice. It could be a lower timing too, which would help emissions.

[Sketchy_Racer]

what did you call guys that dont blipp the throttle lol(-: good race , just picked up a nsr engine my self , did i do the right thing now lol

Do blip, just cant hear it on the 2T, but I've got no excuse for the ugly over-rev going into 2nd gear :weep:
Glad to hear you've joined the dark side. Most fun bike ive ever ridden the NSR. If you want to know anything that we've done just ask, I can give you all the files for the billet heads and head inserts that I'm running if you're keen.


Pesky little blighter isn't he, but Taupo is a bit of a goat track and it seems like he can track real well out of the shortcut where there's a fair bump on the exit, and crucially onto the front straight.

Fair blasts past people at the start. Does it stay in a reasonable heat range throughout?

Got a good radiator now, sitting anywhere from 55-60 depending. Still haven't done any ducting though so it's not being very efficient with it's air flow. Good to know I have extra cooling up my sleeve for when we get into summer.

[lodgernz]

FIM says 2 diameter pistons are illegal from memory

What about FIK? Illegal there too?

[Frits Overmars]

Since torque is no greater than for a regular top level 125...You are right if we just compare the maximum torque values. But at 17500 rpm the Ryger's torque is quite a bit higher than the torque of your regular top level 125 at 17500 rpm, let alone at 30000 rpm...


The only thing creating a big suction is the exhaust so the exhaust must be "seeing" the carb better or for more time (or both), than in a regular engine.In a reed valve engine this time is limited by the exhaust timing, which is conventional in the Ryger. But you may want to rethink the bold part of your statement..


In order to have good emissions and economy, the scavenging must be such that any and all air/fuel getting into the exhaust port gets shoved back into the cylinderTrue, but there is more to it. The Ryger engine makes us face the fact that conventional combustion is anything but perfect. Trapping all the fuel in the cylinder is one part of the equation; getting it all to burn completely is part two.


If "primary compression" isn't really a pump anymore, the velocity wouldn't be very high anymore. And if it's not a pump anymore. .. it really shouldn't be called primary compression ratio anymore, should it Frits? I am just egging you on now Frits Let's talk conventional engines for a moment so you may better understand Jonny (just returning your egg :msn-wink:).
As long as there is a difference between the maximum volume and the minimum volume of the crankcase, it's a pump. But it's a mediocre pump; it can hardly generate any pressure.
The maximum closed volume is when the inlet shuts and the minimum closed volume is when the transfers open.
For an Aprilia RSA (not the worst of conventional engines) the inlet closes at 85° after TDC = 28 mm below TDC = 64,1 cc below TDC, and the transfers open at 114° after TDC = 40,9 mm below TDC = 93,8 cc below TDC.
Total crankcase volume at TDC is 675 cc, so the primary compression ratio is (675 - 64,1) / (675 - 93,8) = 1,05. Is that mediocre or what?
Nevertheless it is a compression ratio; what else would you call it? And you need something like it to start an engine if you don't want to violate KISS.

PS: will you guys please slow down a bit? your posts are too good to ignore, but answering them reallly eats into my day.
PS2: if he wasn't taller than me, I'd say that Flettner is a clever little bastard. And he's not the only one here....

[ken seeber]

I believe there is a twostroke Kart engine in Perth (you know, Australia) that will sart and run with no crank case.

Fletto,
We checked our R&D archives and, yes, what you say is correct. The RAG engine certainly did start (the main aim of the test) and run. Not spectacularly marvelous, but it did run under no load at up to 3 to 4k. Didn’t try any more as it kept trying to vibrate itself across the floor.
It didn’t run well, if at all, when it was direct piston ported. We then made up a small single petal reed block (3D printed), requiring an extended manifold. Then the action. Note that this was achieved with a small groove, which could have been emulated with an equivalent passage. Not too sure if this a transfer duct or is it an exhaust passage?

316213316214316215


Wet sump 2 strokes. At Orbital, we did both a 3 cyl 1 litre and 6 cyl 2 litre versions. These were wet sumped and used a Roots style blower for air flow. To maintain compactness, the transfer passages were shared with the adjacent cylinder ie one vertical passage splitting to go either way to whichever port was open. Probably not good for airflow (Wobbly would probably squirm if the saw them), but enough for the power curve of the time. The 6 cyl was actually installed and run in a BMW car (which incidentally had the most erotic exhaust note ever). The prime purpose was to try to reduce the NVH aspects of a “roller bearinged” crank scavenged engine and used plain bearings for the crank and rods. All seemed to work, with a considerable NVH improvement, and that oil control was good, with no exh smoke, smell or excessive consumption.
The pistons were full skirted with an oil scraper at the bottom, placed such that it would never uncover a port when at TDC. Unfortunately I don’t have a pic or sample, but do have for another 2 stroke DI externally scavenged engine project we did for a UK company. Same in overall principle, but in this case was of 86 bore and used a “shrunk in rod pin”, hence the relatively large pin diameter. I know it’s shitty looking, but hey.



316217


Given all this, here is a pic of what Harry’s piston MIGHT look like, given that it MIGHT be full skirted, meaning it is a simple one piece design with no passages, necking, volumes etc in the piston itself. It was based on the fact that the piston pin boss didn’t protrude beyond the oil scraper groove, meaning that the direct side thrust axis was within the length of the piston and not overhung.

316216


Jeez, we could make these OR could we? It all comes down to the patent status and tactics, which is all a bit of an unknown to virtually all of us. The main feature of patents is that no-one can “make – use – sell” a patented technology unless they are the patent holder or one who has been given permission to use it, eg a licencee. Lodgernz might be able to comment further

So if Smitty,TZ350 and co made one, even for their own use, it could be deemed to be in breach and Harry could take you to court and try to claim damages. Damages bring primarily loss of income to Harry (in this case zero). So, would Harry do this, would Harry bother? Absolutely not. He’ll be happy enough to start initially making the KZ engines to show the world how much better they were and then license the technology to volume engine manufacturers. Let all the rest utilize and demonstrate the technology, known throughout the world as Ryger technology (look at Elon Musk of Tesla fame, he essentially allows anyone to use many of their patents for free). Fame and $s for Harry, not too bad at all.

3 months to go.

[ken seeber]

Hi guys,
The cylinder has been drawn in a CAD program and 3D printed in PLA after which it was cast in aluminum by using investment casting. At this moment I am machining the raw cast piece and making an adapter plate / head inserts, etc.

For now I think this is enough before my post becomes confusing. In the attachments I have posted a picture of the bike, the cylinder, its mold and the cylinder during the investment casting process and the power curve :)

cheers,

Peter

Peter, what you have done with the PLA investment casting is great. Would it be too much to ask if you could give more details on the technique, I am sure many have lots of questions?

However, before you might do this, maybe Hooser could somehow transfer this to the Foundry section rather than keeping it under ESE.

Huser, have you gone to bed yet?

[jonny quest]

Ah yes, a stepped piston, the largest diameter of it would probably be considered the bore size.

[MotleyCrue]

Thinking out loud some more.

If the crankcase volume is small, perhaps approaching just piston displacement, then the crankcase pump would suck in A/F much like the action of filling the cylinder on a 4 stroke intake stroke, but with ports that are big and open fast the displacement would fill quicker than the same displacement could be filled on a 4 stroke with valves, so the little crankcase should be able to be filled to a very high rpm, like 30000. Basically pumping 125+cc every time around.

With a very small crankcase the pressure in the crankcase would be getting pretty darn high as the piston approaches BDC because it would be akin to what's in the cylinder when the piston approaches TDC, so the flow from the crankcase to the cylinder could be very brief and very intense. The exhaust blowdown would be not critical because there would be lots of time between exhaust opening and crankcase discharge and the crankcase discharge pressure would be very high. The very high discharge pressure would also give spectacular A/F mixing.

Now if the exhaust timing were somehow asymetrical then the exhaust could be closed real early perhaps at BDC keeping any A/F from escaping and leaving some exhaust in the cylinder to activate the next combustion cycle.

The exhaust pipe would be less important than usual but would at some speeds help blowdown.

Probably a fatal flaw or two here and I haven't spent any time figuring out how to achieve it mechanically. Just some off the cuff thoughts for now.


Edit: One fatal flaw that comes to mind is that significant crankcase pressure would cause significant power losses due to compression pumping.

[jasonu]

I don't yet have privileges to send PMs on this forum.

Start your own thread and fill it with anything posts until your post count gets high enough.
Someone else might be able to tell you what that post number is.

[jasonu]

Do blip, just cant hear it on the 2T, but I've got no excuse for the ugly over-rev going into 2nd gear :weep:
Glad to hear you've joined the dark side. Most fun bike ive ever ridden the NSR. If you want to know anything that we've done just ask, I can give you all the files for the billet heads and head inserts that I'm running if you're keen.



Got a good radiator now, sitting anywhere from 55-60 depending. Still haven't done any ducting though so it's not being very efficient with it's air flow. Good to know I have extra cooling up my sleeve for when we get into summer.

:Offtopic:I thought they (rightly) separated motard style wide handle bars bikes from the rest of the rabble for safety reasons.

[Tunisti]

Greetings from Finland!

I´ve been reading this thread for couple of months, and decided to join the conversation for the first time.:confused:

Some Ryger speculations: One of my fellow tuners Pauli had this idea of cylinder extra (A) ducts, which would be positioned above the transfers and also partially above the exhaust port. Those ducts would lead down to the cylinder and end up as ports that could be opened and closed by the piston skirt. I thought that speculation bit further and decided, that there could be another (B) ducts coming from inlet duct (after the carburator, before the main reeds), which would involve reeds. Those ducts would join the first mentioned ducts near the lower ports.

There's some ultra HD pictures to give a glue of what I mean:
http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/reygrer_zpskgjaszxo.png
http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/reygrer2_zpsahkcwkni.png

And now the theory behind that mess (note new terms:msn-wink:):

Step 1: Ryger ports open, and the purging exhaust gases force the fresh mixture inside Ryger ducts into the crankcase. Soon after that the piston skirt closes the lower end of the Ryger ports and the pressure and mass of the mixture in the crankcase has risen. The Ryger ducts are now somewhat full of exhaust gases.

Step 2:Exhaust port opens, and the high pressurised exhaust gases in the Ryger ports flow back into the cylinder, until the pressure in ducts is equal to cylinder pressure. Cylinder pressure drops as exhaust gases pass to the pipe.

Step 3 (option No.1): Transfer ports open, and the high pressurized mixture enters the cylinder. Soon after that the pipe starts to suck the cylinder, and the reeded B-ducts start to flow from the inlet duct. Exhaust gases in the Ryger ducts flow into the cylinder, and after the exhaust gases have been replaced by the fresh micture, the ryger ports act as "pulse transfer" which are purely powered by the suction of the pipe and the inertia of the mixture flowing throught the inlet duct. The cylinder is scavenced rapidly and efficienty, due to high crankcase compression and large total transfer area (conventional transfer + Ryger ports). In this option the pipe starts to suck at such a point, that the exhaust gases in the Ryger ports don't get mixed too much with the fresh mixture coming from the conventional transfers.

Step 3 (option No.2): Similar to option No.1, except that the exhaust sucktion pulse is delayed such amount, that the exhaust gases inside the Ryger port intentionally mix with the fresh mixture coming from the conventional transfers, causing the mixture to have good HCCI characteristics.

Step 3 (option No. 3, Pauli´s original idea): In this scenario, there are no B-ducts involved. The Ryger ports only pressurize the crankcase, and are mostly full with exhaust gases (in other words, exhaust gases are mixed with the fresh mixture inside the crankcase). The suction made by pipe would mix the exhaust gases in the Ryger ducts into the somewhat fresh charge in the cylinder, giving the needed HCCI characteristics. The Ryger ducts would be in a state of vacuum, when te pipe sucks the exhaust gases out of the ducts. Also there would be some flowback of fresh mixture from cylinder to the Ryger ducts (and crankcase in opt. 1&2), when the exhaust pulse arrives. Flowback could also occur at the moment of exhaust port being closed and Ryger ports being somewhat open. That could be a big issue in all of these structures.

Step 4: All the ports are closed, and depending on the Step 3 options, there would be more or less exhaust gases being mixed in the fresh charge. After that the best guess is that some kind of HCCI ignition would occur, maybe due to somewhat homogenous mixing of exhaust gases. (Maybe the trick is to heat the mixture with exhaust gases, without actually heating the incoming charge -> no "density losses" in induction/scavenging. Could there also be some "knocking dampening" characteristics with the "dirty mixture", allowing the combustion to be knocking-like without the aspects being able to destroy the engine...?)

Btw. Is it okay to introduce own achievements in this thread?

PS. Sorry for my bad English!

[MotleyCrue]

True, but there is more to it. The Ryger engine makes us face the fact that conventional combustion is anything but perfect. Trapping all the fuel in the cylinder is one part of the equation; getting it all to burn completely is part two.




It runs with a form of preignition (not HCCI) which 1) burns better and 2) keeps the parts from flying out the top at 30000 rpm. The better burn compensates for the added pressure towards end of compression. The exhaust dilution keeps the NOx emissions in check like it does for 4 stroke engines.

[Muciek]

Another 500 GP "replica"
http://www.morebikes.co.uk/scoop-suter-mmx-500-first-pictures-of-the-195bhp-two-stroke/

Video https://www.facebook.com/mediagarageit/videos/532427046913073/?fref=nf

Dunno why they used BxS 56 x 58,5.

[TZ350]

Btw. Is it okay to introduce own achievements in this thread?


Own achievements is what this thread is mostly supposed to be about plus a bit of learning and sharing.

I would love to see a few pictures of what you have been doing and hear about what you have achieved. Anything is welcome that we can learn from.

[breezy]

Frits said..
"True, but there is more to it. The Ryger engine makes us face the fact that conventional combustion is anything but perfect. Trapping all the fuel in the cylinder is one part of the equation; getting it all to burn completely is part two."

so as this engine was developed to make a clean burning 2 stroke, Mr Ryger must have found out what percentage of the trapped fuel about to be combusted was actually combusted.. maybe the combusted fuel actually moves quicker out of the cylinder through the exhaust port and leaves the un used fuel trailing slower behind. this could be trapped/mixed and cooled with new fuel flow into the cylinder basically recycling unused fuel from previous cycle...:sherlock

[MotleyCrue]

It runs with a form of preignition (not HCCI) which 1) burns better and 2) keeps the parts from flying out the top at 30000 rpm. The better burn compensates for the added pressure towards end of compression. The exhaust dilution keeps the NOx emissions in check like it does for 4 stroke engines.

If the preignition is controllable no harm done. Regular engines cant control preignition.

[Tunisti]

Well, I think that me and my friend have the fastest moped in Finland.:laugh: Actually it´s not a moped, still <80cm3. We´ve been building mopeds and two stroke parts with very small budgets in our garage. The top speed of the "record" moped is 134,6kph, 0-100kph is about 9,5s and 1/8mile goes just under 11 seconds. Pretty moderate specs I´d say... Motor is Suzuki EPO type air cooled 5-speed moped motor, stroke 37,8mm and bore bit over 50mm.

Here are some pictures of "Raisu":
http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/th_raiskualku_zpszqcihiw1.jpg (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/raiskualku_zpszqcihiw1.jpg.html)http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/th_2013-12-30-528_zps6fba2618.jpg (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/2013-12-30-528_zps6fba2618.jpg.html)
http://jokelaj.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Suzuki+PV+50+/PV-Foorumin+vauhtip%C3%A4iv%C3%A4t+2014/IMG_6734.JPG/_smaller.jpg (http://jokelaj.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Suzuki%20PV%2050%20/PV-Foorumin%20vauhtip%C3%A4iv%C3%A4t%202014/IMG_6734.JPG)
http://jokelaj.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Suzuki+PV+50+/PV-Foorumin+vauhtip%C3%A4iv%C3%A4t+2014/IMG_6934.JPG/_smaller.jpg (http://jokelaj.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Suzuki%20PV%2050%20/PV-Foorumin%20vauhtip%C3%A4iv%C3%A4t%202014/IMG_6934.JPG)

Copyrights jokelaj.kuvat.fi

We have also done some experimental DIY cylinder castings, with zero budget and knowledge. One lostfoam casted prototype cylinder is in active usage, and two sand mould casted cylinders ended up as failures.

Lost foam casted cylinder:
http://jokelaj.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Suzuki+PV+50+/PV-Foorumin+vauhtip%C3%A4iv%C3%A4t+2015/IMGL3679.jpg/_smaller.jpg (http://jokelaj.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Suzuki%20PV%2050%20/PV-Foorumin%20vauhtip%C3%A4iv%C3%A4t%202015/IMGL3679.jpg)
http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/DIY-Pytty/th_2015-07-03-1748_zps5j7amu0h.jpg (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/DIY-Pytty/2015-07-03-1748_zps5j7amu0h.jpg.html)http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/DIY-Pytty/th_2015-07-03-1745_zpskfzmbvzs.jpg (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/DIY-Pytty/2015-07-03-1745_zpskfzmbvzs.jpg.html)http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/DIY-Pytty/th_2015-07-11-1984_zpsfylwb52h.jpg (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/DIY-Pytty/2015-07-11-1984_zpsfylwb52h.jpg.html)http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/DIY-Pytty/th_2015-07-11-1985_zpscvytyquy.jpg (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/DIY-Pytty/2015-07-11-1985_zpscvytyquy.jpg.html)

And some failed sand castings:
http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/th_IMG-20150621-WA0045_zpspjwajdft.jpg (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/IMG-20150621-WA0045_zpspjwajdft.jpg.html)http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/DIY-Pytty/th_2015-06-27-1690_zpsvylj6xm7.jpg (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/DIY-Pytty/2015-06-27-1690_zpsvylj6xm7.jpg.html)http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/DIY-Pytty/th_2015-06-27-1699_zpscd3jozqw.jpg (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/DIY-Pytty/2015-06-27-1699_zpscd3jozqw.jpg.html)http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/th_2015-06-19-1654_zpserfotbpn.jpg (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/2015-06-19-1654_zpserfotbpn.jpg.html)

We have also made DIY aluminium melting furnance, DIY inertia dynamometer, lots of special modifications to commercial cylinders and all the aerodynamic coverages of the "Raisu". Most of the components that we have used are from scrapyard or second hand markets.:laugh:

Dyno results of Raisu, three differently modified cylinders and some exhaust pipes we´ve made, you can find a lot more in here (on the left, more pictures about castings): http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/library/?sort=3&page=1
http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/th_Vertailu1_zpsoqpfzkoc.png (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/Vertailu1_zpsoqpfzkoc.png.html)http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/th_PC090129.jpg (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/PC090129.jpg.html)http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/th_PC090083.jpg (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/PC090083.jpg.html)http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/th_DSC_0062_zps49d2f30f.jpg (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/DSC_0062_zps49d2f30f.jpg.html)http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/th_2014-04-25-617_zps9d9d74a2.jpg (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/2014-04-25-617_zps9d9d74a2.jpg.html)
http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/th_2014-01-05-535_zps7ea7ab92.jpg (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/2014-01-05-535_zps7ea7ab92.jpg.html)http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/th_P7110152_zps5232abc8.jpg (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/P7110152_zps5232abc8.jpg.html)http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/th_P9040118_zps4159122a.jpg (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/P9040118_zps4159122a.jpg.html)http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/th_DSC00845.jpg (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/DSC00845.jpg.html)http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/th_2012-07-10-007.jpg (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/2012-07-10-007.jpg.html)http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/th_2020-07-02-055.jpg (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/2020-07-02-055.jpg.html)http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/th_P7120126_zps4fb4e5fe.jpg (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/P7120126_zps4fb4e5fe.jpg.html)

And here is our YouTube channel: ¨https://www.youtube.com/user/RKTeamFinland/videos

To pick something up, here´s some 1/8mile acceleration: https://youtu.be/pTgZ7B7fhh8?t=19s

Sorry if too many pictures!

[Flettner]

Good on you Finnish barstards, yes more casting stuff (pictures etc) would be nice. On this thread would be ok but there is also a Bucket Foundry thread as well, dedicated to casting and general making of things engine (and other). We would all love to see what you get up to, casting wise:cool:

[Flettner]

I've experimented with ceramic coating before, It has the ability to transfer heat slowly so you get a cool piston / combustion chamber with a hot skin promoting detonation as the engine starts working hard. For this reason I binned the idea but if you were to design a combustion chamber that could control when and where this detonation started AND control the distribution of the subsequent burn, be it a high speed burn.Might work? Perhaps a small annular groove around the inner edge of the squish area close to the combustion chamber?

[FastFred]

We´ve been building mopeds and two stroke parts with very small budgets in our garage.

We have also done some experimental DIY cylinder castings, with zero budget and knowledge. One lostfoam casted prototype cylinder is in active usage, and two sand mould casted cylinders ended up as failures.

This is great stuff, thanks for the photos.

[MotleyCrue]

I've experimented with ceramic coating before, It has the ability to transfer heat slowly so you get a cool piston / combustion chamber with a hot skin promoting detonation as the engine starts working hard. For this reason I binned the idea but if you were to design a combustion chamber that could control when and where this detonation started AND control the distribution of the subsequent burn, be it a high speed burn.Might work? Perhaps a small annular groove around the inner edge of the squish area close to the combustion chamber?


I dont think you would want detonation. I would think preignition like RC 2 stroke engines but maybe not initiated by the same mechanism.

[Flettner]

Frits, has HR-HCCI been tried with other fuels like ethanol or perhaps LPG?

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, has HR-HCCI been tried with other fuels like ethanol or perhaps LPG?I couldn't say; what is HR-HCCI?

[2005bully]

Tunisti

You have a TON of time invested in what you have done there. The hydro-formed pipes you have pictured are my favorite. It takes a great deal of patience and skill to make one come out that good. If you have any more pictures of the details I'm sure many on here would like to see them. Kermit Buller

[Flettner]

I couldn't say; what is HR-HCCI?

I was hoping you might tell us what Harry Ryger's version of HCCI is and that it has been tested on other fuels:shifty:

[speedpro]

... The Ryger engine makes us face the fact that conventional combustion is anything but perfect. ...

Which possibly goes back to a question I asked in the #6 thread earlier this month -

"I've been thinking about internal combustion engines and how they might be compromised by their mechanical architecture, being they have a crankshaft with a rod connecting to the piston. The piston reciprocates as the crank rotates. With an infinitely long conrod the piston velocity will vary sinusoidaly as the crank rotates. As the rods are a bit shorter than that the piston velocity varies at a modified sinusoidal rate. Over time we have optimised the combustion as best we can to extract as much power from the combustion as possible given the mechanical constraints of the piston rate of velocity change as the crank rotates.

My question is - "If" an engine could be built that could have any piston velocity change at any point of crankshaft rotation, what rate of change in velocity would be the best to extract the most from the combustion, firstly if we retained the current combustion chamber profiles with the current burn rates etc? If, as I suspect, that combustion chamber profile is a compromise to achieve a burn rate that best works with the current crank/rod/piston compromise, what then would be the ideal combustion chamber profile to achieve the ideal extraction of power from the combustion process, if we weren't restricted to the piston velocity profile but could in fact make it anything we wanted? As now I see it being speed dependant."

Engine speed that is. I've thought of a way to customise the piston travel versus crankshaft rotation and my machining/CNC guy says it wouldn't be too hard to make. Current thinking is for a conventional 2T cylinder on top.

[J.A.W.]

Which possibly goes back to a question I asked in the #6 thread earlier this month -

"I've been thinking about internal combustion engines and how they might be compromised by their mechanical architecture, being they have a crankshaft with a rod connecting to the piston. The piston reciprocates as the crank rotates. With an infinitely long conrod the piston velocity will vary sinusoidaly as the crank rotates. As the rods are a bit shorter than that the piston velocity varies at a modified sinusoidal rate. Over time we have optimised the combustion as best we can to extract as much power from the combustion as possible given the mechanical constraints of the piston rate of velocity change as the crank rotates.

My question is - "If" an engine could be built that could have any piston velocity change at any point of crankshaft rotation, what rate of change in velocity would be the best to extract the most from the combustion, firstly if we retained the current combustion chamber profiles with the current burn rates etc? If, as I suspect, that combustion chamber profile is a compromise to achieve a burn rate that best works with the current crank/rod/piston compromise, what then would be the ideal combustion chamber profile to achieve the ideal extraction of power from the combustion process, if we weren't restricted to the piston velocity profile but could in fact make it anything we wanted? As now I see it being speed dependant."

Engine speed that is. I've thought of a way to customise the piston travel versus crankshaft rotation and my machining/CNC guy says it wouldn't be too hard to make. Current thinking is for a conventional 2T cylinder on top.



Here's an interesting example of unusual 2T engine architecture, of ~bucket size..

www.odd-bike.com/2014/05/imme-r100-purity-of-design.html

[peewee]

not sure if you guys have seen these pdf files but i found them interesting although theyre a number of years old.



http://kth.diva-portal.org/smash/resultList.jsf?query=Development+of+a+counter+pist on+two+stroke+HCCI+engine&language=en&searchType=SIMPLE&noOfRows=50&sortOrder=author_sort_asc&onlyFullText=false&sf=all&aq=[[]]&aqe=[]&aq2=[[]]

[Sketchy_Racer]

:Offtopic:I thought they (rightly) separated motard style wide handle bars bikes from the rest of the rabble for safety reasons.

Yeah they usually do. This race day had a big hold up in the middle because of a bad crash, so they combined a lot of the classes so we could all get some racing in.

To be honest, it wasn't so much the riding style as much as it was the riders. Some of the guys on the motards are absolute muppets on the race track!

Good thing the NSR has the power to blast past them!

[Askor]

Some of the guys on the motards are absolute muppets on the race track!

+1 million

[Bert]

Yeah they usually do. This race day had a big hold up in the middle because of a bad crash, so they combined a lot of the classes so we could all get some racing in.

To be honest, it wasn't so much the riding style as much as it was the riders. Some of the guys on the motards are absolute muppets on the race track!

Good thing the NSR has the power to blast past them!

Man that's pushing the limits of the MNZ permits.....

Did Ross get the forth 300 out on Sunday?

[karter444]

Wobbly some time back you posted a photo of a crankcase you were welding up to reduce case volume but you also said that welding a plate over the crank half also gained a horsepower.I think you mentioned that this was common on kz2 engines . I may need to reduce the case volume as I have fitted a 7mm longer rod but an extra horsepower is always a benefit . will shrouded cranks still work with an engine with reeds at the rear as opposed to the kz2 with reeds at front in terms of crank rotation .
also did you have any problem with case distortion ,I was thinking maybe bolting the case to a 10 mm steel plate or did you have both cases bolted together ?
also whatgap is required between the two pieces being welded in . does it need to be only wide enough for the rod or as wide as the big end for efficient lubrication
cheers

[WilDun]

TUNISTI.
On the 'Bucket Foundry' thread they would be very interested in having some of your casting photos posted there too! - possibly we could have some sort of exchange between the two threads in future?
Well done you guys!

[Frits Overmars]

..If the combustion chamber profile is a compromise to achieve a burn rate that best works with the current crank/rod/piston compromise, what then would be the ideal combustion chamber profile to achieve the ideal extraction of power from the combustion process, if we weren't restricted to the piston velocity profile but could in fact make it anything we wanted?Even if you could vary the piston velocity profile at will, you are still stuck with a finite burn speed - this is the decisive factor; not the piston speed.
The current combustion chamber profile is designed to create a highly turbulent flame front in order to promote the burn speed: the faster the better.
HCCI combustion is a quantum step forward, and as it does not depend on turbulent flame spreading, other chamber shapes may emerge.
It's one of the things that may still be optimized for the Ryger.

[MotleyCrue]

Even if you could vary the piston velocity profile at will, you are still stuck with a finite burn speed - this is the decisive factor; not the piston speed.
The current combustion chamber profile is designed to create a highly turbulent flame front in order to promote the burn speed: the faster the better.
HCCI combustion is a quantum step forward, and as it does not depend on turbulent flame spreading, other chamber shapes may emerge.
It's one of the things that may still be optimized for the Ryger.


Then is it fair to say that at some normal operating conditions perhaps even full throttle the Ryger engine is not using the spark plug in any meaningful way to initiate the combustion process ? The plug is initiating combustion for engine starting and maybe low load, but is irrelevant at high rpm full load ?

[Frits Overmars]

Then is it fair to say that at some normal operating conditions perhaps even full throttle the Ryger engine is not using the spark plug in any meaningful way to initiate the combustion process ? The plug is initiating combustion for engine starting and maybe low load, but is irrelevant at high rpm full load ?Maybe so; there are lots of things I'd like to measure but it would require more instrumentation than we have available at the moment.

[Tunisti]

Hmm.. I think that there must be somewhat dirty mixture inside the barrel, when all ports have closed. At least if the combustion is somehow sorted as knocking. Haven´t really figured out, but I have a theory that mixture involving exhaust gases tends to have lower peak temperatures and the "flame" speed of "knocking" is reduced to moderate rate via the impurities bethween ignitable "packages". This would not only lower the NOx emissions, but also allow leaner mixtures to be used -> reduced HC emission.

If the knocking-like combustion would occur in pure charge, there would be large broblems with heat and shock-type stresses to mechanical parts. I remember Frits or Jan talking about the knockings effects on macroscopic levels: The shock waves tend to "blow off" a thin layer of insulating gas from the metal surfaces (ie. piston), introducing the surfaces into situation where the heat conductivity increases significantly. I wonder whether the Ryger concept has some kind of trick to keep the insulating layer of gas on the surfaces, despite the exposure to shock waves.

And then there´s the theory, that spark plug would give many sparks or one "conitnuous" spark, meanwhile there would be huge squish velocities forcing the charge right into the spark gap. Meaning that the flame speed would be artificial or the charge would be ignited in several points (spark plug stays in place, mixture to be ignited moves due to the shape of cylinder head). At least, the melting of the electrode would be an issue to be considered, when knocking-like combustion would occur with fresh mixture... Continuous or multiple sparks could also build up excessive heat to the electrode, I guess...?

Btw. I´m about to order some 20kg of Vinamold. I was wondering whether to buy only red, yellor or half and half both of them. I would need to take some castings from exhaust- and transfer ducts, but I don´t have a clue how well the yellow one wants to settle in the duct and how hard it is to get out of there. On the other hand, I don´t know how floppy stuff the red one is, since it`d be bad thing if the castings would bend under their own weights. My plan would be to copy the Vinamold pieces into plaster of paris, so it is important that the pieces would bend as little as possible. Any tips what to do?

Thanks for the comments! I´m going to post some DIY casting reports to Bucket Foundry topic, after I´ve translated them. Where should I post step by step instructions/reports about manufacturing of hydroformed exhaust pipes?

Btw. How much do I have to spam, before I can send private messages?

[TZ350]

Btw. How much do I have to spam, before I can send private messages?

About 10 I think. Love your pictures thanks.

[Grumph]

Thanks for the comments! I´m going to post some DIY casting reports to Bucket Foundry topic, after I´ve translated them. Where should I post step by step instructions/reports about manufacturing of hydroformed exhaust pipes?

Btw. How much do I have to spam, before I can send private messages?

Start another thread on hydroforming. It's been talked about on this one a bit but it's specialised enough - and enough are interested - to warrant it's own thread. And it gets your post count up as well....
Nice to see what you've done. Good work. Those long winters in Finland are obviously productive....

[mr bucketracer]

Start another thread on hydroforming. It's been talked about on this one a bit but it's specialised enough - and enough are interested - to warrant it's own thread. And it gets your post count up as well....
Nice to see what you've done. Good work. Those long winters in Finland are obviously productive....dont mention the war

[WilDun]

dont mention the war

No doubt, you mean the war between four strokes, two strokes and the inefficient use of fuel - (I hope!). :)

Thread on hydroforming sounds like a good idea - or on making and desigining pipes in general perhaps? especially as this Ryger thing will most probably change things considerably.

Just random thinking (out loud) :confused:

[adegnes]

What are the dimensions of your dyno roller TZ? Asking for a friend.

Ok, there's no friend. I'm in the planning stage of a dynobuild.
How does your dyno cope with more/less powerfull bikes? I was hoping to be able to run bucketish stuff, but also old 90hp+ force fed fire breathing dirt trackers - might be a bit much to ask for...

[JanBros]

We´ve been building mopeds and two stroke parts with very small budgets in our garage.
Sorry if too many pictures!

great pictures :yes:

went through all of them on your site. one question : what is it with that MIG welding torch sticking inside the boxes ?

[Frits Overmars]

What are the dimensions of your dyno roller TZ? Asking for a friend. Ok, there's no friend. I'm in the planning stage of a dynobuild.Try this:316228

[Tunisti]

Thanks guys!

I´ll make the exhaust pipe thread, when I have time to do it. It´s actually quite usual in Finland, that boys even under the age of 16 hydroform exhaust pipes to their mopeds...:sweatdrop I think I was something like 14 years old, when me and my friend made the first exhaust pipe, it was ugly as hell and made of cones.

Adegnes: I was not asked, but our DIY dyno has inertia of 5kgm^2 and roller circumference of 1280mm. Rotating mass is about 170kg (including lake-ship´s flywheel and tracror compressor´s belt wheel). Even though, I´d say that even rather small inertia values can be enough (say 2-3kgm^2 in your case?) when the roller can tolerate high speed pulls and the data logging is accurate enough. Ofcourse there is also that variable, how fast your bike´s rear wheel tends to spin on top gear pull, say 140kph top speed (with 50rwhp and 5kgm^2 inertia) could easily lead in to too short pull, distorting the natural thermal etc. loads compared to driving situation.

JanBros: Do you mean these pictures?
http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/DIY-Pytty/th_IMG-20150704-WA0038_zpsvh7yfoxt.jpg (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/DIY-Pytty/IMG-20150704-WA0038_zpsvh7yfoxt.jpg.html)http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/DIY-Pytty/th_IMG-20150704-WA0082_zpscbcts4fq.jpg (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/DIY-Pytty/IMG-20150704-WA0082_zpscbcts4fq.jpg.html)

That´s the poor man´s sodium silicate hardener! I use CO2 as MAG welder´s shielding gas, so it´s a good way to "gas" those sodium silicate bindered silica sand cores into solid form. I´ve calculated the right gasing times for different amounts of core material, so no extra gas is accidently added in to the boxes.:laugh: I can publish those calculations later, in the raport.

War.. If you mean the Soviet thing, that´s not what Finns are nervous about now. Middle east refugee invasion is happening right now, thank´s to EU...

[adegnes]

Try this:316228

Thanks Frits, I'll check it out in the morning.





Adegnes: I was not asked, but our DIY dyno has inertia of 5kgm^2 and roller circumference of 1280mm. Rotating mass is about 170kg (including lake-ship´s flywheel and tracror compressor´s belt wheel). Even though, I´d say that even rather small inertia values can be enough (say 2-3kgm^2 in your case?) when the roller can tolerate high speed pulls and the data logging is accurate enough. Ofcourse there is also that variable, how fast your bike´s rear wheel tends to spin on top gear pull, say 140kph top speed (with 50rwhp and 5kgm^2 inertia) could easily lead in to too short pull, distorting the natural thermal etc. loads compared to driving situation.


Thanks for the info, you are of course welcome to answer!

[2005bully]

Tunisti.... Looking forward to hearing a lot more about the projects you have been working on.

[peewee]

Hmm.. I think that there must be somewhat dirty mixture inside the barrel, when all ports have closed. At least if the combustion is somehow sorted as knocking. Haven´t really figured out, but I have a theory that mixture involving exhaust gases tends to have lower peak temperatures and the "flame" speed of "knocking" is reduced to moderate rate via the impurities bethween ignitable "packages". This would not only lower the NOx emissions, but also allow leaner mixtures to be used -> reduced HC emission.

If the knocking-like combustion would occur in pure charge, there would be large broblems with heat and shock-type stresses to mechanical parts. I remember Frits or Jan talking about the knockings effects on macroscopic levels: The shock waves tend to "blow off" a thin layer of insulating gas from the metal surfaces (ie. piston), introducing the surfaces into situation where the heat conductivity increases significantly. I wonder whether the Ryger concept has some kind of trick to keep the insulating layer of gas on the surfaces, despite the exposure to shock waves.

And then there´s the theory, that spark plug would give many sparks or one "conitnuous" spark, meanwhile there would be huge squish velocities forcing the charge right into the spark gap. Meaning that the flame speed would be artificial or the charge would be ignited in several points (spark plug stays in place, mixture to be ignited moves due to the shape of cylinder head). At least, the melting of the electrode would be an issue to be considered, when knocking-like combustion would occur with fresh mixture... Continuous or multiple sparks could also build up excessive heat to the electrode, I guess...?

Btw. I´m about to order some 20kg of Vinamold. I was wondering whether to buy only red, yellor or half and half both of them. I would need to take some castings from exhaust- and transfer ducts, but I don´t have a clue how well the yellow one wants to settle in the duct and how hard it is to get out of there. On the other hand, I don´t know how floppy stuff the red one is, since it`d be bad thing if the castings would bend under their own weights. My plan would be to copy the Vinamold pieces into plaster of paris, so it is important that the pieces would bend as little as possible. Any tips what to do?

Thanks for the comments! I´m going to post some DIY casting reports to Bucket Foundry topic, after I´ve translated them. Where should I post step by step instructions/reports about manufacturing of hydroformed exhaust pipes?

Btw. How much do I have to spam, before I can send private messages?

red vinamold works well but ive never tried to make a plaster mold over the top of it. i dont see why it wouldnt do fine however. one thing that i found is to put a small amount of 2t oil on your finger and grease the duct walls. this will make removal very easy. have a look at the pdf files i posted if you havent already

one question about hydroformed pipes. are they easier to make and require less tools than coned pipes ? what about if the pipe needed to have several turns ? i would like to try and make a pipe but i dont have anything to cut or roll the cones

[mr bucketracer]

No doubt, you mean the war between four strokes, two strokes and the inefficient use of fuel - (I hope!). :)

Thread on hydroforming sounds like a good idea - or on making and desigining pipes in general perhaps? especially as this Ryger thing will most probably change things considerably.

Just random thinking (out loud) :confused:last time I bought up hydroforming I got my head riped of :facepalm:

[husaberg]

last time I bought up hydroforming I got my head riped of :facepalm:

There is a real good video on it on pitlane I think. That ended in an argument as well.
I will see if I can find it. I can't it not the one in the thread
this is the thread anyway Howard Gifford is bloody good at it.
316235
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10574486_10152961765969180_1938831791364828774_n.j pg?oh=c73df97eea04d2e4682365b41a81638e&oe=56AA1775&__gda__=1454064928_54d735f030ad034bb78b1e7698dd8b8 1
http://www.pit-lane.biz/t3107-gp-125-250-why-hydroforming-is-not-as-good-as-welded-cones
Here is some pipes he did
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/VNMZeWDu2vk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[seymour14]

last time I bought up hydroforming I got my head riped of :facepalm:

That's because you are one of the few people who can successfully do it.

Otherwise it's those godawful cones...:shifty:

[Grumph]

last time I bought up hydroforming I got my head riped of :facepalm:

yeah, well, according to wob the dyno doesn't lie. From my point of view, there are people who want to try doing it this way and some guidance from those who have done it successfully wouldn't go amiss.
Remember too the pipes made don't just have to be for 2 strokes...which is why a separate thread makes sense.

Personally, i've just done a set of four curved megaphone exhausts for a big CB350/4 - and now know just enough to be dangerous.

[WilDun]

last time I bought up hydroforming I got my head riped of :facepalm:

Persistence is the answer,
No doubt you had plenty of that when trying to master the art!
Don't allow anyone give you negative criticism if they haven't produced something acceptable themselves or at least made a good effort (with evidence)! - if they have done well, then listen.

[Lightbulb]

When making pipes for the N40 6.5cc engine, the pipes with the sharp edges, ie cones , did not perform as well as the CNC from barstock can parts brazed together. There was numerous challenges to make the sections in 1 operation, instead of making the inner shape and transferring to a mandrel for the outer. I even made some steel pipes to see the differences in performance. All the CNC section pipes out performed the cone pipes for our engine at the time. I have not done more pipes for a while as the one we have is still doing everything we need from it.
Neil

[polinizei]

I ended up with an alien 3 style with a strongly curved pipe. The first try was 0.8mm. Second and third 1.0mm.
I remember the alien style was a bit tricky in cad drawing.

[polinizei]

Frits you are the math master, so maybe you could answer this RSA question.
How much fresh charge moves from the ducts into cylinder at the rated speed of 13.000 rpm?
I think the time area of all ports is to low, to to move 125ccm from the crank case.
So how much is it realy? 75% of the duct vollume?





@all
...how much fresh charge moves in the ryger @17000rpm/70HP on each rotation, and how much pressure we need for that in the ducts?

[wobbly]

A Delivery Ratio of 1.2 is common,I have seen as high as 1.3 - this would indicate that there is 150 to 160 odd cc
being flowed thru the transfers in one cycle.
Not all of it stays in the cylinder as the scavenging and trapping efficiency are less than unity.

Around BDC at peak power the pipe can pull 1/2 Bar pressure ratio on the cylinder, and this translates to around an average of 1/4 Bar in the cyinder
acting on the transfers.
The case is only slightly above atmospheric for a short period at TPO,so has little effect on the flow at all.

[MotleyCrue]

this translates to around an average of 1/4 Bar in the cylinder
acting on the transfers.
The case is only slightly above atmospheric for a short period at TPO,so has little effect on the flow at all.

1/4 bar is diddly so the Ryger must have more pressure differential, or more transfer area ,or both, to move the flow capabilities from 13500 rpm up to 17000 rpm. Does anyone know where all 11 transfers are located ? There probably aren't 11 in the cylinder wall topside of the piston at BDC, maybe only as many as 7 or 8, maybe less. This makes at least 3 or 4 transfers (4 sounds like a nice even number) unaccounted for.

[wobbly]

The Ryger has an conventional looking pipe, so the pressure ratio at the Ex around BDC , and thus within the cylinder
will be the same.
But - if some of those 11 transfers are located high and connected to the small volume under the piston, and the higher pressure at EPO is used to compress that volume,
then we have the situation that the pressure ratio at "normal " TPO will be far greater in the case than within the cylinder.
The exact opposite to what is seen in a normal 2T.
When the transfers first open we get backflow, as the case pressure is so low and even with a ton of blowdown STA the cylinder pressure
is still above whats in that case.
So I envisage some high transfer ports connected thru lower down holes in the piston to the small case area, separated as we know by the CNC plate
and some sort of seal on a vertically sliding piston guide rod.
The trickery in the sump is still beyond me, that enables safe operation at 30K - but as I inherently believe what Frits has alluded to,its as simple as buggery
and why non of us thought of it before is madening.
More power to Mr H Ryger.

[Flettner]

Bugger the boss, I told him we are doing homers today. Ranting on about making ends meet, if he's not careful, he will meet his end:rolleyes: Here we are machining out a crank to stroke 48mm, not sure why?
If he's a good boy we will untie him at the end of the day but he better have ordered the beer!

[seymour14]

Bugger the boss, I told him we are doing homers today. Ranting on about making ends meet, if he's not careful, he will meet his end:rolleyes: Here we are machining out a crank to stroke 48mm, not sure why?
If he's a good boy we will untie him at the end of the day but he better have ordered the beer!

That's the spirit!:drinkup:

[TZ350]

316151 316150

The TF/TS100 is a farm bike engine, the Aprilia RS125 cylinder I had in mind is from a road bike


They say it's possible to convert an ordinary 2T engine to the Ryger style fairly easily. So that has got me thinking.

Follow the link below for the back story on the 6 speed water cooled 32hp Suzuki GP100 build.


Thanks to some very expert engineering help the six speed spacer plate has been made and fits perfectly.

315900

Next move is the long rod crankshaft.

The Suzuki V100 2T Scooter cranks have a 48mm stroke and NSR 250 MC21 cylinders are a 54mm bore, 48 x 54 = 109.9cc.


316267
Here we are machining out a crank, not sure why?

The crank is getting a 22mm bigend pin for a 115mm RD400 long rod.

316268 316269

Here is the rest of the story:-

Original 100cc Suzuki GP motor being fitted with a re-plated (re-bored) NSR MC21 cylinder.

God Bless those that had the rules changed to 110cc max over bore allowance so they could use cheap over-sized KT100 pistons without going to the trouble required of de stroking to stay within the old 105cc rule ...... :D

[Flettner]

.

The Suzuki V100 2T Scooter cranks have a 48mm stroke and NSR 250 MC21 cylinders are a 54mm bore, 48 x 54 = 109.9cc.



The crank is getting a 22mm bigend pin for a 115mm RD400 long rod.

316268 316269

Here is the rest of the story:-

Original 100cc Suzuki GP motor being fitted with a re-plated (re-bored) NSR MC21 cylinder.

God Bless those that had the rules changed to 110cc max over bore allowance so they could use cheap over-sized KT100 pistons without going to the trouble required of de stroking to stay within the old 105cc rule ...... :D

Yes, handed to you on a plate Rob, who made that rule up. Anyway the crank is done, pick up any time, don't forget about the gold bars deposited in my off shore account:msn-wink:

[ken seeber]

.

God Bless those that had the rules changed to 110cc max over bore allowance so they could use cheap over-sized KT100 pistons without going to the trouble required of de stroking to stay within the old 105cc rule ...... :D

TeeZee,
What is the piston pin diameter you are envisaging to use and or, also, what is the con rod bore diameter?