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Flettner
2nd October 2015, 13:37
I ended up with an alien 3 style with a strongly curved pipe. The first try was 0.8mm. Second and third 1.0mm.
I remember the alien style was a bit tricky in cad drawing.

Intersting, I would like a tight bend chamber like that. I was just going to suck it up and build a set of steel dies as I could use the same pressings on my Autogyro engines. A lot of time and money though. I tried hydro forming once, it ended badly so I gave up.

jasonu
2nd October 2015, 14:19
Bugger the boss, I told him we are doing homers today. Ranting on about making ends meet, if he's not careful, he will meet his end:rolleyes: Here we are machining out a crank to stroke 48mm, not sure why?
If he's a good boy we will untie him at the end of the day but he better have ordered the beer!

I hope you are utilizing free company materials to complete your project.

richban
2nd October 2015, 14:59
Oh man no mucking around at your end. I will be picking up my 115mm rod tomorrow. Just waiting on the TF crank to turn up then I will be slapping my 109cc TF RS together. Whats your HP prediction of these over square Frankenstein engines Rob?




.

The Suzuki V100 2T Scooter cranks have a 48mm stroke and NSR 250 MC21 cylinders are a 54mm bore, 48 x 54 = 109.9cc.



The crank is getting a 22mm bigend pin for a 115mm RD400 long rod.

316268 316269

Here is the rest of the story:-

Original 100cc Suzuki GP motor being fitted with a re-plated (re-bored) NSR MC21 cylinder.

God Bless those that had the rules changed to 110cc max over bore allowance so they could use cheap over-sized KT100 pistons without going to the trouble required of de stroking to stay within the old 105cc rule ...... :D

TZ350
2nd October 2015, 15:59
TeeZee, What is the piston pin diameter you are envisaging to use and or, also, what is the con rod bore diameter?

2010 RM125 piston with 15mm piston pin, RD400 rod has a 20mm little end bore.


Whats your HP prediction of these over square Frankenstein engines Rob?

Frankenstein motor Bore x Stroke ... 54 x 48 is much the same ratio as my old Suzuki GP125 at 56 x 50 And the best I saw on the dyno out of that was 32 rear wheel Dyno jet hp.

EngMod2T predicts 30-32 rear wheel hp as measured on a Dyno jet. Not great, I had hoped for 36 but with the water cooling its at least going to be broad spread no fade, reliable all day hp.

Frits Overmars
2nd October 2015, 16:10
Your philosophies about the Ryger engine make it very tempting for me to react. Alas, I still am not allowed to. But I can't resist re-posting this picture:
316277
I bet you wish that you could push that piston further down. But what would you see? Let me tell you: nothing out of the ordinary.
Even with the piston at BDC you would not notice that it is a Ryger engine...

jonny quest
2nd October 2015, 16:21
I used to hydroform a lot of pipes.

It's easy if you follow these 2 steps. Ok, 3 steps


Don't form the pipe as 1 unit. Header to middle of diffuser as 1 piece, rest of diffuser to stinger as the rest. If you have a plane break use it to your advantage now. Mark plane break and or all your sections while laying out flat templates.

2) while under pressure, in stages of filling. .. beat the shit out of wrinkles with a steel hammer. When done it will look like a stamping. Can't even tell it was hydroformed. I once sent a hydroformed pipe to get stampings made. They called me up and said he couldn't make dies for me. I said why? He informed me they wouldn't copy other pipe builders stampings. I lol'ed told him it was hydroformed!

3) roll edges before welding seems

jonny quest
2nd October 2015, 16:35
Frits... my bestest friend ever.

Can you comment on why dome looks so clean after running?

Frits Overmars
2nd October 2015, 17:08
Frits... my bestest friend ever. Can you comment on why dome looks so clean after running?I deeply regret to hear that, Jonny. But cheer up, one day you too will find some better friends :msn-wink:.
Oh, yes, your question about the clean piston dome. Well, it has been running on clean petrol instead of pre-mix, and it had an extremely thorough combustion. The exhaust gases are very clean too.

ken seeber
2nd October 2015, 17:15
.
Even with the piston at BDC you would not notice that it is a Ryger engine...

Booody hell Frits, there goes a lot of thinking down the drain. :crybaby:

Guess we'd all better get the brains into overtime................................AGAIN

jonny quest
2nd October 2015, 18:03
I deeply regret to hear that, Jonny. But cheer up, one day you too will find some better friends :msn-wink:.
Oh, yes, your question about the clean piston dome. Well, it has been running on clean petrol instead of pre-mix, and it had an extremely thorough combustion. The exhaust gases are very clean too.

So why does a 4 stroke carbon up the top of piston? It's running clean petrol.

Not being argumentative, truly perplexed.

And I'm assuming you meant ex port on Ryger stays clean as well.

F5 Dave
2nd October 2015, 18:09
Thanks Frits. Your comments about percentage of std parts. Intriguing.

F5 Dave
2nd October 2015, 18:11
So why does a 4 stroke carbon up the top of piston? It's running clean petrol.

Not being argumentative, truly perplexed.

And I'm assuming you meant ex port on Ryger stays clean as well.
Eventually, and will always be relationship to combustion efficiency.

Lightbulb
2nd October 2015, 18:30
Your philosophies about the Ryger engine make it very tempting for me to react. Alas, I still am not allowed to. But I can't resist re-posting this picture:
316277
I bet you wish that you could push that piston further down. But what would you see? Let me tell you: nothing out of the ordinary.
Even with the piston at BDC you would not notice that it is a Ryger engine...

Thanks for the confirmation Frits about the porting arrangement. Looks like I get another tick, lol
Neil

husaberg
2nd October 2015, 18:38
Piston rings don't touch the bore when they have a nice slippery layer of 05/40W oil separating the two either.

Grumph
2nd October 2015, 19:04
Your philosophies about the Ryger engine make it very tempting for me to react. Alas, I still am not allowed to. But I can't resist re-posting this picture:
316277
I bet you wish that you could push that piston further down. But what would you see? Let me tell you: nothing out of the ordinary.
Even with the piston at BDC you would not notice that it is a Ryger engine...

Ordinary - or at least current convention for those power levels, is a triple exhaust port....The homologation papers state one exhaust port i understand....
So there's one point of difference which should be visible.

Grumph
2nd October 2015, 19:08
I used to hydroform a lot of pipes.

3) roll edges before welding seems

Are you saying roll the edges to do a butt weld rather than leave them upstanding and seam weld ?

I'll try that next time. May have to make up a former from MDF, bandsawn to shape and with a radiused edge.
Don't have a sheetmetal form roll - do have plenty of MDF....

Frits Overmars
2nd October 2015, 19:15
current convention for those power levels, is a triple exhaust port... The homologation papers state one exhaust port... So there's one point of difference which should be visible.Well spotted Grumph. Insiders might notice the absence of auxiliary exhaust ports. But then again, there is no current convention for Ryger power levels yet...

F5 Dave
2nd October 2015, 19:23
Dont need aux ports when there's no rings . . oh, um. . .

TZ350
2nd October 2015, 19:28
316277
I bet you wish that you could push that piston further down. But what would you see? Let me tell you: nothing out of the ordinary. Even with the piston at BDC you would not notice that it is a Ryger engine...

Nothing out of the ordinary!! eleven transfer ducts and ports might arouse some curiosity .... :confused: ... 11 ???? ... :scratch:

husaberg
2nd October 2015, 19:43
Nothing out of the ordinary!! eleven transfer ducts and ports might arouse some curiosity .... :confused: ... 11 ???? ... :scratch:

Only you will not see half of them at BDC. Rob:shutup:

Frits I think has previously gave a pretty big hint here, as to why the Ryger is able to rev so high.
316285316286

jonny quest
3rd October 2015, 00:48
Are you saying roll the edges to do a butt weld rather than leave them upstanding and seam weld ?

I'll try that next time. May have to make up a former from MDF, bandsawn to shape and with a radiused edge.
Don't have a sheetmetal form roll - do have plenty of MDF....

Butt weld is correct.

I had best luck gas welding seams.

Mig is a big no no.... tig was ok, gas was best.

I always put a bleeder hole in. You don't want air in the system at all

jonny quest
3rd October 2015, 01:01
Eventually, and will always be relationship to combustion efficiency.

Carbon is present from where a burn took place.

Carbon is not there typically for 2 reasons. 1) there was no fuel or mixture didn't burn in that spot. 2) incoming mixture cleans that spot of piston or chamber

teriks
3rd October 2015, 01:46
Booody hell Frits, there goes a lot of thinking down the drain. :crybaby:

Guess we'd all better get the brains into overtime................................AGAIN
It might be all in your head... ;)

MotleyCrue
3rd October 2015, 01:54
Your philosophies about the Ryger engine make it very tempting for me to react. Alas, I still am not allowed to. But I can't resist re-posting this picture:
316277
I bet you wish that you could push that piston further down. But what would you see? Let me tell you: nothing out of the ordinary.
Even with the piston at BDC you would not notice that it is a Ryger engine...

I bet if we looked in the exhaust port from the flange side and you pushed the piston up and down we'd see something out of the ordinary.:2thumbsup

Frits Overmars
3rd October 2015, 03:25
I bet if we looked in the exhaust port from the flange side and you pushed the piston up and down we'd see something out of the ordinary.:2thumbsupYou're on!

2005bully
3rd October 2015, 03:44
I bet you wish that you could push that piston further down. But what would you see? Let me tell you: nothing out of the ordinary.
Even with the piston at BDC you would not notice that it is a Ryger engine...[/QUOTE]

Thinking out loud........What constitutes a duct by the homologation standards. Is it any passage connecting point a and b, and or does "duct" refer to a passage whose function is controlled in time? If there are 11 ducts and 6 of them do not terminate in the cylinder anywhere above the piston. There only remains a couple locations left to be connected.... 1. The inlet to transfer ports. 2. The ex port to either the transfers or inlet...... The answer to their location would have to lay in what purpose could be served by any of these areas being connected. Maybe the 2 aux ex ports are still visible at BDC but have been altered to serve another function. Might cut outs on the pistons O.D. function as valves to control any of these ducts. If Rygers view from above the piston has the appearance of a std transfer layout, it must either employ another method of timing the transfer flow (maybe reeds were the correct answer) or some of the transfers are not flowing fresh mixture.


This greatly complicates the simplicity. Kermit Buller

polinizei
3rd October 2015, 03:54
I love my smokers...
If there is puls charge in the ryger, there should be no real reason, to separate the crankcase. In my opionion this is only for oil seperation.
Maybe you guys remember that post with a rised C port, some posts ago, where Frits asked for the source...

If i had time, i would try the following:

1) Close the big inlet ports under the c Port with epoxy
2) raise c port some mm in steps
3) reduce the boyesenports in diameter with epoxy, to see the influence, and let the "c port chamber" do the breathing
4) Kill the blowdown and raise a and b Port in steps, and load the ducts with exhaust pressure.
When the blowdown process goes on, i would hope for a dynamic and massive reverse flow...

MotleyCrue
3rd October 2015, 07:06
You're on!

Not sure if thats your poker face or not.:confused:

Surely if we took the carb off and looked in that end with a flashlight we would see something unusual (Yes/No), other than the spacer plate (which has who knows what in it and I wont even go there with a question).

adegnes
3rd October 2015, 07:27
The Ryger story about to unfold reminds me of the Norwegian classic "Flĺklypa Grand Prix" (Pinchcliffe Grand Prix).

Don't think Reodor Felgen cared much for the KISS principle tho...
http://norskfilm.montages.no/wp-content/blogs.dir/55/files/2013/01/redor.jpg

Frits Overmars
3rd October 2015, 08:08
Surely if we took the carb off and looked in that end with a flashlight we would see something unusual (Yes/No)...No. You would see the reed valve, and there's nothing out of the ordinary about that either:killingme.

Lightbulb
3rd October 2015, 08:19
I bet you wish that you could push that piston further down. But what would you see? Let me tell you: nothing out of the ordinary.
Even with the piston at BDC you would not notice that it is a Ryger engine...

Thinking out loud........What constitutes a duct by the homologation standards. Is it any passage connecting point a and b, and or does "duct" refer to a passage whose function is controlled in time? If there are 11 ducts and 6 of them do not terminate in the cylinder anywhere above the piston. There only remains a couple locations left to be connected.... 1. The inlet to transfer ports. 2. The ex port to either the transfers or inlet...... The answer to their location would have to lay in what purpose could be served by any of these areas being connected. Maybe the 2 aux ex ports are still visible at BDC but have been altered to serve another function. Might cut outs on the pistons O.D. function as valves to control any of these ducts. If Rygers view from above the piston has the appearance of a std transfer layout, it must either employ another method of timing the transfer flow (maybe reeds were the correct answer) or some of the transfers are not flowing fresh mixture.


This greatly complicates the simplicity. Kermit Buller[/QUOTE]

I think the single exhaust makes sense to me. So no eyes or other aux ports for the exhaust,maybe it just does not need it in the current Kart configuration. Maybe for a higher power output engine they may need more time area. We do not know. All is just speculation. My view is that they have a ring of reed valves in that block. 5 will connect to the standard type of transfer ports, I also believe these are pre set with a specific amount of
tension. The other 6 ports are also reed controlled to feed the volume that then inturn gets very pressurised just before the transfers open. It is also my belief that the Ryger system does not use ambient ex pressure to increase the transfer port pressure like any regular crankcase 2 stroke engine does, piped or not. There are your 11 ports. 6 inlets will be required to increase the time area. If the pipe really does pull a big negative pressure it will still pull air through the preloaded inlet reeds, but I do not think that is actually happening. The inlet super fog created by the mixture being forced through the effective 3 sets of reeds then just sits in the cylinder like a low weather system being retained by a high in the pipe. At the upper end, as the ex closes, hot ex gas then enter the cylinder, mixes and then the HCCI ignition becomes a reality. As HCCI is the fastest form of ignition and combustion known, and is very clean and complete burning. This is the real trick to the system, as spark ignition in reality is still very inefficient,so is glow plugs, which is why diesel engines are more efficient in both model engines and full size, right up to ship engines. The Ryger is probably the 1st carburetor engine to be able to utilise HCCI, the system is simple, and it makes you think why did I not think of that. I think what I have out lined is very close to what they do, it is simple, none of it has really been done before in this configuration. It is also something that makes me think, wow, why did I not come up with that idea to super mix air fuel mixture .An existing cylinder and crank case assembly can be retrofitted to take advantage of this system. So a conversion is just a new piston,conrod, spacer/valve plate and some cylinder lower end rework.
Neil

adegnes
3rd October 2015, 08:28
...I am beginning to realize that I neglected some aspects of the gas dynamics in an engine as being unimportant...

This is what I find most interesting of all that's been said about the Ryger.
What I find even more interesting is that bearings are on the way, and my conventional, though upside-down two-stroke is soon to be realized.

Grumph
3rd October 2015, 08:40
No. You would see the reed valve, and there's nothing out of the ordinary about that either:killingme.

Maybe so, but as Wob has pointed out, there's no reed plate flange visible between carb and barrel in pics published...

Which at least makes the reed's location possibly out of the ordinary.
And can we take this as confirmation that there is a reed valve somewhere in the inlet tract ?

MotleyCrue
3rd October 2015, 08:52
No. You would see the reed valve, and there's nothing out of the ordinary about that either:killingme.

:brick::brick::brick:

dark art
3rd October 2015, 10:41
:killingme.

That´s just mean...

Does anyone noted the completely different sound coming from the ryger engine at certain rpm?
Doesn´t seem to be ressonace on the exhaust or inlet for sure!

nitro2tfx
3rd October 2015, 13:34
Maybe so; there are lots of things I'd like to measure but it would require more instrumentation than we have available at the moment.

If you ever wish to pursue that additional instrumentation (pressure analyzers, high speed combustion pressure sensors, high speed port pressure sensors), we (TFX Engine Technology Inc,) would be happy to discuss supplying one of our systems to you. Maybe there is another 5 or 10 HP waiting to be picked, or maybe more importantly it would simply be good data documentation to provide to investors, marketers etc. comparing the internal instantaneous dynamics of the Ryger engine, to conventional 2 strokes, and to 4 strokes.

RomeuPT
3rd October 2015, 13:42
The Ryger has an conventional looking pipe, so the pressure ratio at the Ex around BDC , and thus within the cylinder
will be the same.
But - if some of those 11 transfers are located high and connected to the small volume under the piston, and the higher pressure at EPO is used to compress that volume,
then we have the situation that the pressure ratio at "normal " TPO will be far greater in the case than within the cylinder.
The exact opposite to what is seen in a normal 2T.
When the transfers first open we get backflow, as the case pressure is so low and even with a ton of blowdown STA the cylinder pressure
is still above whats in that case.
So I envisage some high transfer ports connected thru lower down holes in the piston to the small case area, separated as we know by the CNC plate
and some sort of seal on a vertically sliding piston guide rod.
The trickery in the sump is still beyond me, that enables safe operation at 30K - but as I inherently believe what Frits has alluded to,its as simple as buggery
and why non of us thought of it before is madening.
More power to Mr H Ryger.

I am anxious to see how can it be done. He is making us feel like we are dumb :weird:

70cv in a 125cc with less 80% emissions, if this will be realiable it will put 4 strokes in the trash can

Flettner
3rd October 2015, 14:08
Your philosophies about the Ryger engine make it very tempting for me to react. Alas, I still am not allowed to. But I can't resist re-posting this picture:

I bet you wish that you could push that piston further down. But what would you see? Let me tell you: nothing out of the ordinary.
Even with the piston at BDC you would not notice that it is a Ryger engine...

Ok Frits, I will if you will, here I've pushed the piston down to uncover the ports.
The irony of it, hot sleeve edge might be a good thing after all:msn-wink:

RomeuPT
3rd October 2015, 14:23
I am sorry if this is total nonsense, but any rod rotating at 30k rpm would break in pieces, so my ideia is that is just goes up and down.

What about if the rod just puls a ratchet system down, and is forced up by a spring with exact strenght needed to compression stroke at maximum hp?

Like in the pic, but I can't picture that working at 30k, there would be so many problems

WilDun
3rd October 2015, 14:32
Maybe you guys remember that post with a rised C port, some posts ago, where Frits asked for the source...



I may have been the guy who posted about the use of high back boost port, (maybe slightly higher than the exhaust port).
I read about it somewhere, possibly in the British "Motorcycle" magazine and possibly way back in the seventies. - I didn't see a post where Frits asked for the source of the info.

I can't really tell you any more than that and probably don't need to tell you, that those early fast two stroke racers, although they had high horsepower readings, also had exceptionally narrow power bands!

WilDun
3rd October 2015, 14:43
Ok Frits, I will if you will, here I've pushed the piston down to uncover the ports.


Frits, it's now your turn to do likewise!:msn-wink:

TZ350
3rd October 2015, 18:50
Page 1320 ....

Maybe not the Ryger but a very informative read.


Ryger http://www.globalarmenianheritage-adic.fr/iconographie/smiley_interrogatif.JPG

http://www.pit-lane.biz/t5235-2-stroke-fast-by-tim-hickox

And how to hydroform an expansion chamber.


After reading some of the content in the ESE thread, I've become really inspired to take a closer look at hydroforming chambers.


the Site that I will link list the ring locations
http://www.pvlsverige.se/vrm/index/index22.html

I will add to the list later most are rods
but have a look at TKRJ and Prox plus makita can't find the site at the moment or they changed it site for sizes try some of the 250 karts like Rotax can't remember who used to make the pistons for them? some Austrian company have a look at KTM.
Woosner, Wiesco

http://www.mxcomposites.com/con_rod.php
http://www.mxcomposites.com/con_rod.php
http://www.connectingrod.com.tw/ktm.htm
http://www.pro-x.com/downloads/Technical.pdf
http://www.kevinbreedonracing.co.uk/products_conrods.asp
http://www.connectingrod.com.tw/honda.htm
http://www.samarin.nl/webshop/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=32
http://www.tkrj.co.jp/
http://findebookee.com/c/connecting-rod the one is capt
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/399336/Pictures/Posted/HotRod.pdf
http://www.kingrod.com.tw/products.php?func=p_list&pc_parent=22
http://www.crankshaftparts.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=67_93&limit=100
http://shop.atlanticmotoplex.ca/productdetail.htm?productId=10295201&browse=256115&shopBy=13698&catalogId=2016
http://jjmachineryonline.com/snowmobile/crankshaft-rebuild-kits-and-parts/connecting-rods
http://www.scooter-center.com/scoweb...y2=CAT&lang=en
http://www.bansheedepot.com/products.asp?cat=17
http://http://www.samarin.net/?productos (http://www.samarin.net/?productos)
http://www.pvlsverige.se/vrm/index/index22.html
http://www.con-rod.com.tw/motorcycle-connecting-rod.htm
http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mingyang-group.2u.com.tw%2Fpdf%2FCAPT-conrod.pdf&ei=iBQJVdibIdXv8gWHmIHoDQ&usg=AFQjCNFf-gNnmOpzO-D1MVppLeMVAqjHUA


PS the Piston maker I couldn't remember the name of that made pistons for Rotax was Elko

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KTM-250-300-GS-MC-Enduro-MX-Kolben-piston-ELKO-1697-70mm-/371463234800?hash=item567cef24f0&vxp=mtr



This lists a fair bit of information on each years changes
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/CATALOGUE/PISTON_DIMS_ALL.htm

YZ250
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/YAMAHA%20PISTONS/PT.88YZ250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/YAMAHA%20PISTONS/PT.99YZ250.htm

RM250
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/SUZUKI%20PISTONS/PT.87RM250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/SUZUKI%20PISTONS/PT.96RM250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/SUZUKI%20PISTONS/PT.98RM250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/SUZUKI%20PISTONS/PT.99RM250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/SUZUKI%20PISTONS/PT.00RM250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/SUZUKI%20PISTONS/PT.03RM250.htm

KX250
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/KAWASAKI%20PISTONS/PT.87KX250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/KAWASAKI%20PISTONS/PT.90KX250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/KAWASAKI%20PISTONS/PT.92KX250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/KAWASAKI%20PISTONS/PT.05KX250.htm

KTM250 and 300
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/OTHER%20PISTONS/PT.05KTM250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/OTHER%20PISTONS/91.6394.htm

Husky 250
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/HONDA%20PISTONS/PT.97CR250.htm

Honda Cr250
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/HONDA%20PISTONS/PT.05CR250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/HONDA%20PISTONS/PT.02CR250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/HONDA%20PISTONS/PT.97CR250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/HONDA%20PISTONS/PT.86CR250.htm

TZ350
3rd October 2015, 21:03
316216
Jeez, we could make these OR could we? It all comes down to the patent status and tactics, which is all a bit of an unknown to virtually all of us. The main feature of patents is that no-one can “make – use – sell” a patented technology unless they are the patent holder or one who has been given permission to use it, eg a licencee. Lodgernz might be able to comment further

So if Smitty,TZ350 and co made one, even for their own use, it could be deemed to be in breach and Harry could take you to court and try to claim damages.


Talking about patents in general, the way I understand it, once a concept is known a patent protects the patent holders commercial interests but patent law does not stop you using the new knowledge to make your own version of it for your own personal use.

Certainly a patent prevents you from exploiting the new idea for commercial purposes but it cannot prevent you using any new knowledge you have acquired to make improvements to your own lot.

Think home hobbyist making a model steam engine incorporating the latest slide valve technology or the offroader modifying his own vehicle to turbocharging and the latest duel fuel rail technology so as to be more powerful and fuel efficient.

From good old Wiki:- The definition of patent infringement may vary by jurisdiction, but it typically includes using or selling the patented invention. In many countries, a use is required to be commercial (or to have a commercial purpose) to constitute patent infringement.

WilDun
3rd October 2015, 22:54
The way I understand it, once a concept is known a patent does not stop you using that knowledge to make your own version of it for your own use.
Certainly a patent prevents you from exploiting this new knowledge for commercial purposes but it cannot prevent you using that new knowledge to make personal improvements to your own lot.


Yes but if someone was actually using your expensive patent "illegally" and you hadn't sold a lot of them, then would you and your little company have the wherewithal for good lawyers or the time to pursue the patent rights to the ends of the earth (or even to China! or India).
Wagging a finger at them or displaying the 'V' sign from the door of your little workshop won't save you!

peewee
4th October 2015, 04:50
I am sorry if this is total nonsense, but any rod rotating at 30k rpm would break in pieces, so my ideia is that is just goes up and down.

What about if the rod just puls a ratchet system down, and is forced up by a spring with exact strenght needed to compression stroke at maximum hp?

Like in the pic, but I can't picture that working at 30k, there would be so many problems


in the photos we've seen it doesnt appear a ratchet system would fit in the normal looking crankcases

Flettner
4th October 2015, 08:09
Your philosophies about the Ryger engine make it very tempting for me to react. Alas, I still am not allowed to. But I can't resist re-posting this picture:
I bet you wish that you could push that piston further down. But what would you see? Let me tell you: nothing out of the ordinary.
Even with the piston at BDC you would not notice that it is a Ryger engine...

To be honest Frits I think we sort of know what's happening down below now, how about turning the camera on the cylinder head (combustion chamber). Please and thankyou.

Frits Overmars
4th October 2015, 09:22
.. a conversion is just a new piston,conrod, spacer/valve plate and some cylinder lower end rework.Yep. Well, just about. There are some minor appliances handling crankcase breathing etc, but as far as the fundamentals, you nailed it Neil.

Frits Overmars
4th October 2015, 09:25
... can we take this as confirmation that there is a reed valve somewhere in the inlet tract ?Clear as mud, aint it? I even gave away where this 'somewhere' is.

Frits Overmars
4th October 2015, 09:33
If you ever wish to pursue that additional instrumentation (pressure analyzers, high speed combustion pressure sensors, high speed port pressure sensors), we (TFX Engine Technology Inc,) would be happy to discuss supplying one of our systems to you. Maybe there is another 5 or 10 HP waiting to be picked, or maybe more importantly it would simply be good data documentation to provide to investors, marketers etc. comparing the internal instantaneous dynamics of the Ryger engine, to conventional 2 strokes, and to 4 strokes.I do not usually respond to commercials, but a dutch acquaintance of mine is using TFX and I must say the stuff is good, the support is good and the coaching is good.
I may take you up on your offer in due time :).

Lightbulb
4th October 2015, 09:39
Yep. Well, just about. There are some minor appliances hanlding crankcase breathing etc, but as far as the fundamentals, you nailed it Neil.

Thank you Frits.
Neil

Frits Overmars
4th October 2015, 09:42
Ok Frits, I will if you will, here I've pushed the piston down to uncover the ports. The irony of it, hot sleeve edge might be a good thing after all:msn-wink:Promoting HCCI, you mean? Could be, Neil, could be....

Frits Overmars
4th October 2015, 09:48
I may have been the guy who posted about the use of high back boost port, (maybe slightly higher than the exhaust port). I read about it somewhere, possibly in the British "Motorcycle" magazine and possibly way back in the seventies. - I didn't see a post where Frits asked for the source of the info.I didn't Will. I saw it with my own eyes in the sixties :D.

Frits Overmars
4th October 2015, 09:49
Frits, it's now your turn to do likewise!I did; not in pictures but in my descriptions.

Frits Overmars
4th October 2015, 09:52
Talking about patents in general, the way I understand it, once a concept is known a patent protects the patent holders commercial interests but patent law does not stop you using the new knowledge to make your own version of it for your own personal use.That's the way I understand it too. But I'm not a lawyer.

Frits Overmars
4th October 2015, 09:55
To be honest Frits I think we sort of know what's happening down below now, how about turning the camera on the cylinder head (combustion chamber). Please and thankyou.I think I posted a link to the regular VM kart engine catalogue somewhere. Download it and take a look at the cylinder head. It's identical with the Ryger's.

WilDun
4th October 2015, 10:47
I didn't Will. I saw it with my own eyes in the sixties :D.

Ah, then it wasn't my Alzheimer's coming and going! I was beginning to doubt myself and thought maybe I was suffering from dreams and halluinations! Thanks for putting it straight. :msn-wink:

Re: visualising the Ryger - There's a few layers of understanding here I think and I'm obviously still in the bottom one!

And FLETTNER, the ratchet scenario, - looks like a captured free piston as it were! - again, I'm in the bottom layer I'm afraid!

- all this stuff is a bit like the Da Vinci code to me - but at least I admit it!


:confused:

peewee
4th October 2015, 11:35
There are some minor appliances handling crankcase breathing .

you must meen like a external pump. besides pumping the air in i wonder if it also handles the lubrication of the crankshaft bearings. wasnt there a canister in one of the photos. a oil reservoir perhaps

Grumph
4th October 2015, 14:19
you must meen like a external pump. besides pumping the air in i wonder if it also handles the lubrication of the crankshaft bearings. wasnt there a canister in one of the photos. a oil reservoir perhaps

The way it was set up looked to me like the classic air/oil separator...and i'm very familiar with them (unfortunately)

jonny quest
4th October 2015, 14:35
^^^ my thoughts too Grumph

husaberg
4th October 2015, 14:55
The way it was set up looked to me like the classic air/oil separator...and i'm very familiar with them (unfortunately)

Remember what looked like a wheel friction drive off the crank/ignition though.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=312428&d=1432956807
As well as above and below conections

peewee
4th October 2015, 15:43
Remember what looked like a wheel friction drive off the crank/ignition though.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=312428&d=1432956807
As well as above and below conections


do you think the two hoses from the shiny canister are connected to the brass nipple looking things (one in the upper reed area and the other at the transfer entrance) ? thats what it looks like to me. carb looks positioned at the upper reeds. is it in communication with the lower reeds or is there something else going on

Frits Overmars
4th October 2015, 16:28
you must mean like a external pump. besides pumping the air in i wonder if it also handles the lubrication of the crankshaft bearings. wasnt there a canister in one of the photos. a oil reservoir perhapsI must not, Peewee. The Ryger does not incorporate an oil pump (KISS, remember?)

Grumph
4th October 2015, 16:39
I must not, Peewee. The Ryger does not incorporate an oil pump (KISS, remember?)

Ok, if it isn't pump lubricated, maybe as has been suggested, splash lubricated - which would predicate rolling element bearings IMO...
If it is splash lubed, a set of one way valves to the air/oil separator would at least give some semblance of circulation - and some cooling too.
Is that a temperature probe on the separator ? In the testing stages at least, it would make sense to keep track of the oil temps.

Oh, and i see i may have got it wrong when i said Wob reckoned there was no reed flange visible...Don't know if I misquoted him or what, but it does look like one is there now I see it again.

husaberg
4th October 2015, 16:55
Ok, if it isn't pump lubricated, maybe as has been suggested, splash lubricated - which would predicate rolling element bearings IMO...
If it is splash lubed, a set of one way valves to the air/oil separator would at least give some semblance of circulation - and some cooling too.
Is that a temperature probe on the separator ? In the testing stages at least, it would make sense to keep track of the oil temps.

Oh, and i see i may have got it wrong when i said Wob reckoned there was no reed flange visible...Don't know if I misquoted him or what, but it does look like one is there now I see it again.

http://www.ftl.technology/products/bearings/carbon

http://www.techbriefs.com/component/content/article/2258
SAE 2002-01-3355 estimates that rings account for about 24% of the total engine friction power loss for a typical European 2.0L engine operating under motorway conditions.


Ordinary - or at least current convention for those power levels, is a triple exhaust port....The homologation papers state one exhaust port i understand....
So there's one point of difference which should be visible.


Well spotted Grumph. Insiders might notice the absence of auxiliary exhaust ports. But then again, there is no current convention for Ryger power levels yet...


Dont need aux ports when there's no rings . . oh, um. . .

correct it could be as big as a Honda bridged port without the pesky bridge

seattle smitty
4th October 2015, 17:46
I'm an old, dumb welder with a useless liberal arts degree, and can't do the detailed technical speculations that you smart guys offer on the Ryger, so I have to ask this. In googling terms like "detonation-ignition" and "HCCI SCCI," I get a lot of four-stroke and turbine engine discussion on it that still doesn't give me answers I want (or maybe it does and I just don't get it). So, can you tell me, 1) Would making an engine detonate by-design be the way to get around the fixed burn-rate limitations and allow sky-high rpm levels? 2) Wouldn't you have to light off the detonation in a closely-timed manner, something other than, say, a glow-plug, and if so, how (microwave ignition?)? 3) How do you build a lightweight aluminum engine that will live under shocks that will break up, among other things, the ceramic insulator on a sparkplug, which is a pretty hardy substance? If this is feasible, might the answer to this also be the answer to how rotating/reciprocating parts aren't flying apart at the sky-high rpms?

I get that HCCI is an auto-ignition process, as in diesels; wouldn't this have a little too much timing "scatter" if used with a non-uniform fuel such as gasoline? As to the Ryger, since Frits tells us it uses an ordinary carburetor as the fuel/air mixer, it can't be auto-igniting injected fuel in the manner of a diesel. IF this engine auto-ignites the fuel/air charge, does the combustion chamber shape dictate where the charge ignites, or does it all ignite at once, and if so, is that detonation? People who supposedly knew used to talk about detonation as a product of "colliding flame-fronts." I was always skeptical of this. In my remote youth I got to do a little work on Unlimited hydroplanes powered by big V-12 fighter plane engines from WW2. Four-valve heads, and dual plugs, dual ignition, and these two plugs were located at opposite edges of the combustion chamber; talk about your "colliding flame-fronts," these engines should have been detonating all the time, but no, they did not. Seems to me if flame fronts "collide" the only thing that happens is that the fuel has all been burned and the fires go out. Yes? No?

TZ350
4th October 2015, 18:39
Follow the link below for the back story on the 6 speed water cooled 32hp Suzuki GP100 build.


The crank is getting a 22mm bigend pin for a 115mm RD400 long rod.

316268 316269

Original 100cc Suzuki GP motor being fitted with a re-plated (re-bored) NSR MC21 cylinder.

Spent a happy afternoon checking out the balance of the new 48mm stroke NSR GP110 crank and the NSR cylinder port STA's with the 48mm crank.

316341316345

The crank overall is 12mm wider than a standard GP crank. After setting the crank up and working out the balance weights required for a BF of 50%. I found the Mallory slugs that were fitted to be to heavy but this is good news because I can now keep skimming the inside faces of the crank halves until it comes right. In the end there will be plenty of volume between the crank webs.

316344 316343

Checking out the timing, things worked out much better than I could have hoped for.

With a 15mm spacer the Exhaust is opening at 80 deg ATDC and Transfers at 118 ATDC and the piston just clearing the port floor at BDC.

316346

The deck height is -5.7mm for 0.8mm squish. This all matches the optimum STA's worked out with EngMod2T for this project.

316342

A 15mm cylinder spacer/adapter plate brings the port timing into perfect alignment. (with 115mm RD400 rod, 2010 RM125 piston, 48mm stroke).

Not bad, a 54mm stroke cylinder fitted to a 48mm stroke motor and the timing works out perfectly.

Great, up until now it was all on faith and a belief that I could overcome any problems with the idea, but now I know it really is going to work.

peewee
4th October 2015, 19:29
I'm an old, dumb welder with a useless liberal arts degree, and can't do the detailed technical speculations that you smart guys offer on the Ryger, so I have to ask this. In googling terms like "detonation-ignition" and "HCCI SCCI," I get a lot of four-stroke and turbine engine discussion on it that still doesn't give me answers I want (or maybe it does and I just don't get it). So, can you tell me, 1) Would making an engine detonate by-design be the way to get around the fixed burn-rate limitations and allow sky-high rpm levels? 2) Wouldn't you have to light off the detonation in a closely-timed manner, something other than, say, a glow-plug, and if so, how (microwave ignition?)? 3) How do you build a lightweight aluminum engine that will live under shocks that will break up, among other things, the ceramic insulator on a sparkplug, which is a pretty hardy substance? If this is feasible, might the answer to this also be the answer to how rotating/reciprocating parts aren't flying apart at the sky-high rpms?

I get that HCCI is an auto-ignition process, as in diesels; wouldn't this have a little too much timing "scatter" if used with a non-uniform fuel such as gasoline? As to the Ryger, since Frits tells us it uses an ordinary carburetor as the fuel/air mixer, it can't be auto-igniting injected fuel in the manner of a diesel. IF this engine auto-ignites the fuel/air charge, does the combustion chamber shape dictate where the charge ignites, or does it all ignite at once, and if so, is that detonation? People who supposedly knew used to talk about detonation as a product of "colliding flame-fronts." I was always skeptical of this. In my remote youth I got to do a little work on Unlimited hydroplanes powered by big V-12 fighter plane engines from WW2. Four-valve heads, and dual plugs, dual ignition, and these two plugs were located at opposite edges of the combustion chamber; talk about your "colliding flame-fronts," these engines should have been detonating all the time, but no, they did not. Seems to me if flame fronts "collide" the only thing that happens is that the fuel has all been burned and the fires go out. Yes? No?

just today frits said it had a standard vm head. theres also a spark plug so it must have some dependance on spark ignition. if its able to run under its own power in HCCI mode then there must be some way to vary the compression ratio i would think. we've had only one photo that i recall so it hard to say exactly how it all works. pretty sure theres a air pump somewhere, likely just out of camera view

adegnes
4th October 2015, 19:48
316343


Have you employed some top secret alien technology with the exhaust connected to the a-transfers or is it just the picture?

TZ350
4th October 2015, 20:19
No ... its an optical illusion, its a small black mark left by the power valve, looks much deeper than it actually is.

casal-fan
4th October 2015, 20:44
just today frits said it had a standard vm head. theres also a spark plug so it must have some dependance on spark ignition. if its able to run under its own power in HCCI mode then there must be some way to vary the compression ratio i would think. we've had only one photo that i recall so it hard to say exactly how it all works. pretty sure theres a air pump somewhere, likely just out of camera view

Or maybe cylinder filling kan be kept more or less constant within a wide rpm range.
Perhaps there is a big surprise waiting on how the Ryger engine uses the exhaust chamber.
The conventional 2stroke engine takes advantage from exhaust pulses over a relatively limited rpm range, but exhaust pulses are always there.
Amazing discussion on this epic thread... by the time Ryger engine technology becomes public, there is perhaps a good chance it all has been uncovered here, as long as the "hints" keep coming:laugh:

Bert
4th October 2015, 21:42
Follow the link below for the back story on the 6 speed water cooled 32hp Suzuki GP100 build.



Spent a happy afternoon checking out the balance of the new 48mm stroke NSR GP110 crank and the NSR cylinder port STA's with the 48mm crank.

316341316345

The crank overall is 12mm wider than a standard GP crank. After setting the crank up and working out the balance weights required for a BF of 50%. I found the Mallory slugs that were fitted to be to heavy but this is good news because I can now keep skimming the inside faces of the crank halves until it comes right. In the end there will be plenty of volume between the crank webs.

316344 316343

Checking out the timing, things worked out much better than I could have hoped for.

With a 15mm spacer the Exhaust is opening at 80 deg ATDC and Transfers at 118 ATDC and the piston just clearing the port floor at BDC.

The deck height is -5.7mm for 0.8mm squish. This all matches the optimum STA's worked out with EngMod2T for this project.

316342

A 15mm cylinder spacer/adapter plate brings the port timing into perfect alignment. (with 115mm RD400 rod, 2010 RM125 piston).

Not bad, a 54mm stroke cylinder fitted to a 48mm stroke motor and the timing works out perfectly.

Great, up until now it was all on faith and a belief that I could overcome any problems with the idea, but now I know it really is going to work.

Looks really good Rob..
The achieved durations are a good effort (I thought they would be larger).
Shows how much potential there is with these NSR barrels...
Another cool build (much like Scottys and speedpros RGV TFs & the RG Kawasakis).

yesyes
4th October 2015, 22:21
I think there is a major difference between what we can call a detonation and the combustion of all the fresh charge at once.
Détonation means shock wave impossible to use for mecanical purpose, apart for blowing up the engine.
combustion of all the fresh charge at once does not produce a shock wave, just a sharp and quick increase of usable pressure.

Norman
4th October 2015, 22:47
I measured the total transfer channels volume in a RGV250 cylinder. It's about 65 cc. If we add some volume in the spacer plate transfers, and after the inlet reeds, there should not be more volume than permitting the piston to act as a compressor? If there is a reed valve function in the transfers, the negative pulse from the pipe should create a rather low pressure under the piston at some time, but not allow at any time to send back a pressure higher than below the piston and spacer transfers. A relatively high pressure difference between under the piston and before the inlet reed valve would speed up the mix speed into the engine and fill it up more quickly. I am thinking that a cut off between under the piston volume and the inlet reed would create a low pressure zone adding to the speed and strenght of theunder piston/spacer transfer filling. Then we have the primary compression as the piston is descending that will set the transfers under boost pressure, ready for a fast push of mixture into the cylinder. The pipe is then pushing escaping mixture and some exhaust back (EGR type of function?) keeping it all in the cylinder but some in the transfers, until exhaust port closing. Pipe is designed to hold a positive pressure at the exhaust for a wider rpm range? Maybe this has already been discussed earlier in this thread..Hm..?

G10
5th October 2015, 00:54
Ryger idea, see if this will work. Weld a piston on top of a piston to create a chamber. Put 6 windows in the upper piston skirt. 5 windows for the transfer ports and 1 window to the exhaust. Now all that's left is to figure out the size and timing of all the windows, the size, length and volume of the exhaust duct, and the volume of the upper chamber. The exhaust pulses pump this chamber. Maybe some one already posted this idea and I missed it.

I'm guessing the Ryger piston is very long, say 90 mm with the wrist pin near the bottom, and sealed off right above the wrist pin boss to create a separate chamber inside the upper piston.

Haufen
5th October 2015, 02:08
When rygerizing ones engine, will it be possible to do the performance mod only, whilst maintaining conventional lubrication of the crank by mixture, Frits?

breezy
5th October 2015, 02:47
Your philosophies about the Ryger engine make it very tempting for me to react. Alas, I still am not allowed to. But I can't resist re-posting this picture:
316277
I bet you wish that you could push that piston further down. But what would you see? Let me tell you: nothing out of the ordinary.
Even with the piston at BDC you would not notice that it is a Ryger engine...

Frits, all those holes around the top of the cylinder, just water jacket? i just had to ask...

MotleyCrue
5th October 2015, 05:59
Any 2 stroke with lousy porting has a lot of exhaust gas left in the cylinder because it cant clear it out properly, yet none of these engines make any decent power and they dont seem to have HCCI combustion or anything out of the ordinary. They run lousy. I cant see this fantastic Ryger combustion being due to just leaving exhaust gas in the cylinder, there must be more to it than that.

Further its been awhile since I read it but I dont think the Honda Activated Radical Combustion made any power improvement it was just economy wasnt it ?

Maybe the Ryger has a hot spot in the head or maybe the whole head is a hot spot so once it is hot enough it lights the mixture just like an RC engine does. RC engines do rev awfully high.

JdG
5th October 2015, 06:29
What if (due to very high crankcase compression) the fresh mixture enters the cylinder violently and mixes homogeneously with the residual exhaust gas?

Maybe (I'm no combustion expert) if this mixture stays very turbulent during compression, combustion can be very fast and the residual exhaust gasses containing some unburnt products get an extra burn, giving cleaner exhaust gasses.

I'm just thinking out loud here...

breezy
5th October 2015, 07:32
Oops, what have we here? Finally found the camera. Hard chrome tube is 22mm Dia, ( OK it's 7/8" ), 2.1mm wall.
Top end is so secret, I don't even know what it looks like.

i expect you have already spun this crank set up with something attached externally?, obviously not under load. how did it go? (you may have posted these findings previously, sorry to ask again ):sherlock: in reality i expect if its good enough for 17500-20000 rpm it would be job done

MotleyCrue
5th October 2015, 07:42
What if (due to very high crankcase compression) the fresh mixture enters the cylinder violently and mixes homogeneously with the residual exhaust gas?

Maybe (I'm no combustion expert) if this mixture stays very turbulent during compression, combustion can be very fast and the residual exhaust gasses containing some unburnt products get an extra burn, giving cleaner exhaust gasses.

I'm just thinking out loud here...

But wouldnt there be great turbulence in any normal 2 stroke due to the flow in the exhaust port slamming mixture into the cylinder after the transfer has closed and before the exhaust has closed ? 2 strokes only run 15 or less for timing with a full cylinder even forgetting about squeezing out the last bit by retarding the timing for pipe heat. But on a similar bore 4 stroke the timing is a lot more than 15 degrees more like 30+ with a full cylinder at high revs.

But looking at what i just wrote maybe you are right, maybe its just more of the same thing that separates a 2 stroke from a 4 stroke combustion, more turbulence, more exhaust, more heat. If conditions improve and the right timing gets less and less then it is at least very quick to combust and maybe even starts combusting on its own.


Thinking some more maybe retarding the timing to a crazy amount would just force a ton of heat into the exhaust residual for the next cycle and after a few cycles combustion would just happen all on its own or at least very fast, some amount after TDC. The more it was retarded the quicker the heat would come in and the sooner the engine would go from a dog to fantastic. Maybe thats why on the video the engine sounds odd then all of a sudden hits full song. I think I'll go with that.

Running extra lean or extra rich might help get this going too, I'm thinking lean.

breezy
5th October 2015, 07:46
No ... its an optical illusion, its a small black mark left by the power valve, looks much deeper than it actually is.

TZ350, are you sure.... sticking in some bleed holes between the transfers and exhaust port to divert any burnt gases trying to back flow down the transfers to be pulled into the exhaust port?:2thumbsup

Frits Overmars
5th October 2015, 08:08
Would making an engine detonate by-design be the way to get around the fixed burn-rate limitations and allow sky-high rpm levels?It seems that way.


Wouldn't you have to light off the detonation in a closely-timed manner, something other than, say, a glow-plug, and if so, how (microwave ignition?)A glow plug is the worst ignition starter I can think of. It gives more ignition advance when you need less.
Microwave ignition doesn't ring a bell. Is it akin to plasma ignition?


How do you build a lightweight aluminum engine that will live under shocks that will break up, among other things, the ceramic insulator on a sparkplug, which is a pretty hardy substance?By making sure that this rapid combustion does not start too soon.


might the answer to this also be the answer to how rotating/reciprocating parts aren't flying apart at the sky-high rpms?I don't see a direct connection yet.


I get that HCCI is an auto-ignition process, as in diesels.I wish it were that simple. In a diesel you can stipulate the beginning of injection which in turn starts the combustion. With HCCI things are not so straightforward.


does the combustion chamber shape dictate where the charge ignites, or does it all ignite at once, and if so, is that detonation?It's supposed to ignite simultaneously all over the combustion chamber and that is very close to detonation, so it's important that this ignition does not happen too early in the cycle.


Seems to me if flame fronts "collide" the only thing that happens is that the fuel has all been burned and the fires go out. Yes? No?Yes.

Frits Overmars
5th October 2015, 08:17
When rygerizing ones engine, will it be possible to do the performance mod only, whilst maintaining conventional lubrication of the crank by mixture, Frits?Not really. It could be done but it wouldn't make sense.

Frits Overmars
5th October 2015, 08:19
Frits, all those holes around the top of the cylinder, just water jacket? i just had to ask...Nope. Eight of the holes are coolant passages; the other eight are threaded; it's where the head studs go :msn-wink:.

Frits Overmars
5th October 2015, 08:22
Maybe the Ryger has a hot spot in the head or maybe the whole head is a hot spot so once it is hot enough it lights the mixture just like an RC engine does. RC engines do rev awfully high.Don't be misguided by rpm numbers. Look at the piston speed; then those RC engines are nothing special.

Frits Overmars
5th October 2015, 08:28
Above I tried to answer a couple of your questions. Not every question got answered but some of those unanswered questions were so good that I could not risk answering them :niceone:.

Tunisti
5th October 2015, 10:16
Speaking generally, if there would be somewhat homogenous mix of exhaust gases and fresh mixture, would it change the combustion characteristics into "softer" state: giving the charge some stability when it comes to the beginning of the (HCCI) combustion. In other words: if detonation would occurr in some random point in the mixture, it wouldn´t be able to proceed in the mixture, since there would be these "shock wave dampening burnt gas lumps" all around the mixture evenly? This ofcource with the assumption, that detonation would be "pressure ignition" caused by violent shock waves causing rapid pressure raises in so called "intersections".

If that´d be true, then the pressure and temperature of mixture could be able to reach to the optimum circumtances for HCCI combustion, even though there would occur some punctate detonations (which would be "stalled" away)?

I´ve also though that in this situation, where exhaust gases would be intentionally mixed with fresh charge, there could be two options:
1)The exhaust gases would be mixed in "late state of time". Meaning that the fresh mixture would already be in the cylinder, and there would be no pure charge density losses, when (hot/cold) exhaust gases would be mixed in. The mixing could be done ie. with pipe´s pressure wave.
2) The exhaust gases would be mixed in the charge, before the scavenging begins. In this case it´d be good, that no more charge would be flowing in to the area where the charge is held, since adding exhaust gas to the mixture rises the pressure of the mixture. (Simply by "raw" pressure or by heating the charge -> higher pressure). Normal EGR type solution would be bad, since the density of the incoming charge would be lower... Maybe the mixed exhaust gases could be either "hot or cold", depending on the need of scavenging pressure and HCCI conditions. Maybe some type of valve/piston skirt control bethween the exhaust duct and "the area where the charge is held".

Somebody also talked about Ryger and variable compression ratio. Since the cylinder head is conventional and the picture of the cylinder´s deck/bore shows that the bore cannot move in relation to cylinder, there could be still at least one option. Let´s think things differently (in the way of "real life" combustion parametres): let´s say that compression ratio=pressure of the non ignited charge at TDC. This would lead us into that conclusion, that if there would be less pressure in the cylinder when the exhaust closes, there would be lower compression ratio. In order to have less pressure in the same volume, you either need lower temperature or less gas. Since temperature is hard to control, we´re left with the amount of gas. You could ofcourse restrict the air flow (=lower the inlet duct pressure) by giving less throttle. This would cause "lower compression ratio" and lot´s of pumping losses. How about if we changed the volume of "the area where the charge is held"? There would be no pumping losses, but the "compression ratio" would be decreased, since the scavenging pressure would be lower - thus the pressure in the cylinder being lower too at the time when the exhaust port closes.

I almost hope that Frits wouldn´t say anything.:whistle:

Leed
5th October 2015, 11:00
given the short rod length: 90mm
and emissions and premix reduction
seem to point to the separated crankcase, long piston
if the rings don't touch the piston... do the 'rings' seal a rod or linkage instead... does the piston float from a small sacrificial blowby stream
have scaled the image based on the plan view of the head... I was wondering if the gudgeon stayed completely below the 'spacer' plate
it does not, and there could be be a second rod involved for the piston at TDC

...move along nothing to see, sorry to waste peoples time:brick:

MotleyCrue
5th October 2015, 11:26
Thinking some more maybe retarding the timing to a crazy amount would just force a ton of heat into the exhaust residual for the next cycle and after a few cycles combustion would just happen all on its own or at least very fast, some amount after TDC. The more it was retarded the quicker the heat would come in and the sooner the engine would go from a dog to fantastic. Maybe thats why on the video the engine sounds odd then all of a sudden hits full song. I think I'll go with that.

Running extra lean or extra rich might help get this going too, I'm thinking lean.

Running the timing a bit late adds heat to the exhaust and would normally be the wrong thing to do until high in the revs and overrev. Retarding the timing even more than that might seem crazy at first glance but even at the lower revs ultra retarded timing would work because once the HCCI kicked in combustion would be fast and efficient and the exhaust temperature would drop down to a decent value that wouldnt hurt anything.

This could be self stabilizing/regulating, if the exhaust temperature dropped too much due to the HCCI, the HCCI would be lost and the engine would again run with ultra retarded regular combustion quickly heating things back up then the HCCI would automatically kick in again. All this could happen in a fraction of a second, but with the right design the flip flopping between HCCI and ultra retarded regular combustion would not happen and the engine once on HCCI would just stay there. :headbang:

peewee
5th October 2015, 12:02
anyone heard of mirror bore coating ? i wonder how it compares to nikisil

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/OVERVIEW/mirror_bore_coating.html

http://blogs.youwheel.com/2014/05/30/nissans-new-engine-technology-mirror-bore-coating/

2T Institute
5th October 2015, 12:36
Ryger idea, see if this will work. Weld a piston on top of a piston to create a chamber. Put 6 windows in the upper piston skirt. 5 windows for the transfer ports and 1 window to the exhaust. Now all that's left is to figure out the size and timing of all the windows, the size, length and volume of the exhaust duct, and the volume of the upper chamber. The exhaust pulses pump this chamber. Maybe some one already posted this idea and I missed it.

I'm guessing the Ryger piston is very long, say 90 mm with the wrist pin near the bottom, and sealed off right above the wrist pin boss to create a separate chamber inside the upper piston.

Think your onto something here.

Flettner
5th October 2015, 13:22
i expect you have already spun this crank set up with something attached externally?, obviously not under load. how did it go? (you may have posted these findings previously, sorry to ask again ):sherlock: in reality i expect if its good enough for 17500-20000 rpm it would be job done

Yes it's been spun up in the milling machine, only to approx 3000, it did shake, there will need to be a ballance shaft as the crankshaft has not much bob weight on it. Thankfully plenty of room for that.
I have two cylinders lined up for this bottom end (still in the pattern shop). One I've started to show off on bucket foundry and one thats not (not yet anyway). First one is just a wacky idea, second one is a little more serious (still probably just as wacky :crazy:)
In the mean time I'm trying to get the sleeve engine to make some noise

husaberg
5th October 2015, 13:23
Ryger idea, see if this will work. Weld a piston on top of a piston to create a chamber. Put 6 windows in the upper piston skirt. 5 windows for the transfer ports and 1 window to the exhaust. Now all that's left is to figure out the size and timing of all the windows, the size, length and volume of the exhaust duct, and the volume of the upper chamber. The exhaust pulses pump this chamber. Maybe some one already posted this idea and I missed it.

.

Yip...........................

ken seeber
5th October 2015, 13:58
Frits,
Just a simple naďve question. Would the Ryger technology be applicable to a 4 stroke engine?

MotleyCrue
5th October 2015, 14:53
Ryger idea, see if this will work. Weld a piston on top of a piston to create a chamber. Put 6 windows in the upper piston skirt. 5 windows for the transfer ports and 1 window to the exhaust. Now all that's left is to figure out the size and timing of all the windows, the size, length and volume of the exhaust duct, and the volume of the upper chamber. The exhaust pulses pump this chamber. Maybe some one already posted this idea and I missed it.

I'm guessing the Ryger piston is very long, say 90 mm with the wrist pin near the bottom, and sealed off right above the wrist pin boss to create a separate chamber inside the upper piston.

A few pages back Frits implied, though did not flat out state, that if we looked in the exhaust port and ran the piston from top to bottom we wouldn't see anything unusual. I think we would see some of what you described above looking in the exhaust port and that would be unusual.

Lightbulb
5th October 2015, 16:37
A few pages back Frits implied, though did not flat out state, that if we looked in the exhaust port and ran the piston from top to bottom we wouldn't see anything unusual. I think we would see some of what you described above looking in the exhaust port and that would be unusual.

No, looking from the cylinder top down at the bore, you would see regular ports.Likewise looking through the exhaust port, all will look normal. Even taking the carb off, all you will see is the 1st of what I think are actually 3 sets of reeds. Frits has been very kind and told us all way more than he should have really. Think of an upside down Dunelt piston but a bit changed of course. The picture with the superimposed piston needs a small piston diameter through the plate,maybe 30mm diameter, and like a tapered top hat above the plate. Then you just need reeds for the induction to fill the pressure chamber, and reeds to control the out flow to the ports at the right time-these will be in the spacer plate. I think it is these last reeds that are preset to x amount of pressure, that finally mix the fuel to a fog and allow HCCI to become a reality. The main reed block allows the max flow into the pre chamber area, and will I guess stop any negative pipe pressure pulses arriving at the carb, another big plus. It is very possible that a big enough negative pulse could still draw mixture fog through the entire system and into the cylinder but with no pulse back into the carb to disrupt the continual flow.
Neil

mr bucketracer
5th October 2015, 18:19
Frits,
Just a simple naďve question. Would the Ryger technology be applicable to a 4 stroke engine?just a engine from china :niceone:

Frits Overmars
5th October 2015, 19:53
... the assumption, that detonation would be "pressure ignition" caused by violent shock waves..It's the other way around: shock waves are the result rather than the cause of detonation.


let´s say that compression ratio=pressure of the non ignited charge at TDC.Let's not say that. A ratio and a pressure are totally different notions. A compression ratio is the ratio between two volumes. Even if those volumes are completely vacuum, it won't change the ratio.


I almost hope that Frits wouldn´t say anything.Sorry Tunisti :D.


Frits, Just a simple naďve question. Would the Ryger technology be applicable to a 4 stroke engine?The mechanical part of it: yes. The thermodynamics part: yes. The gas dynamics part: no.
Get well soon, Ken :whistle:.

ken seeber
5th October 2015, 22:08
The mechanical part of it: yes. The thermodynamics part: yes. The gas dynamics part: no.
Get well soon, Ken :whistle:.

Frits, thanks for the answer and also your concern re my health.
I do like the answer and, not that I was feeling crook, but I do feel a lot, lot better knowing the answer. It tells us a lot.

teriks
5th October 2015, 23:55
Off topic but interesting project non the less, old Volvo Amazon with OMC 4 litre two-stroke V8. Will have to see some drag-racing when that thing is finished. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoiWpJLokEc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoiWpJLokEc

AndreasL
6th October 2015, 00:47
You bet me to that post teriks. :niceone:

It's two friends of mine that is building the car.
Totally insane and a lot of high class craftsmanship.

The biggest concern right now is to sort the drive train.
CVT, auto or manual is the question. Know they have concerns about the crank coping with an ordinary clutch. I'm not sure if it's a real problem or just "a feeling".
Maybe some of you have a clue how to solve this?

Great project!

d2t
6th October 2015, 04:30
Even taking the carb off, all you will see is the 1st of what I think are actually 3 sets of reeds.
Neil

Where would the extra reeds be? Somewhere within the crankcase? Unless they're micro small, I don't see where they would be physically placed in relation to the cylinder/spacer. Also, I still don't understand how the piston can withstand 30K RPM. Not doubting anyone's ideas but there's something still missing in this puzzle.

2005bully
6th October 2015, 05:21
The picture with the superimposed piston needs a small piston diameter through the plate,maybe 30mm diameter, and like a tapered top hat above the plate. Then you just need reeds for the induction to fill the pressure chamber, and reeds to control the out flow to the ports at the right time-these will be in the spacer plate. Neil

Neil..... I follow and agree with much of your concept but am a little muddy on the above part of it. Am I correct that you are saying that the fresh mixture which is compressed before transfer begins, is done so by a pump that is created through the application of a 2 stage piston? Kermit Buller

Grumph
6th October 2015, 05:22
You bet me to that post teriks. :niceone:

It's two friends of mine that is building the car.
Totally insane and a lot of high class craftsmanship.

The biggest concern right now is to sort the drive train.
CVT, auto or manual is the question. Know they have concerns about the crank coping with an ordinary clutch. I'm not sure if it's a real problem or just "a feeling".
Maybe some of you have a clue how to solve this?

Great project!
Off topic sure, but it's a 2 stroke. I'd be concerned about shock loads too if you used a conventional automotive clutch...
Only 2 optioms IMO. Both provide initial slippage. Auto or a slipper clutch same as fuel dragsters. They're adjustable for static pressure and dynamic pressure too. Should stop the crank twisting - at least on launch....

Lightbulb
6th October 2015, 06:20
Where would the extra reeds be? Somewhere within the crankcase? Unless they're micro small, I don't see where they would be physically placed in relation to the cylinder/spacer. Also, I still don't understand how the piston can withstand 30K RPM. Not doubting anyone's ideas but there's something still missing in this puzzle.

It is only my assumptions, but they would be in the spacer housing. The spacer does not have to be only 20mm thick or what ever we see from the outside.
Neil

Lightbulb
6th October 2015, 06:37
Neil..... I follow and agree with much of your concept but am a little muddy on the above part of it. Am I correct that you are saying that the fresh mixture which is compressed before transfer begins, is done so by a pump that is created through the application of a 2 stage piston? Kermit Buller

Yes, that is exactly what I think is happening. Even though it may not pump the same static volume of mixture compared to a conventional 2t, I think that the better mixing, creating a better burning fog with less exhaust residue becomes more efficient overall. CO really does kill combustion, so the less CO that is residual in the cylinder, the better it will perform. Also, it is the only way I can see that the engine can get to breath, at higher than the pipe design length, making what we think a pipe does, infact being wrong. But all these ideas are just my own conjecture that seem to fit all the snippets of information that many people have shared. Of Course we all just have to wait and see what they have really done. But the mental exercise and looking at the concept from a different view point is in itself very refreshing. To me it is anyway. If the lower part of the piston is smaller than the bore, so a reversed dunelt piston but changed, then there is not considered by the rules pumping by a displacement greater than the swept stroke of the engine. It also would not be double pumping either. I am not sure of the mechanics of it not breaking itself or how it can handle the high rpm, maybe there is an aspect of the piston design that can be made in such a way I have not thought of, that as a result becomes lighter and stronger at the same time.Certainly a shorter rod is lighter right off the bat, and a lower gudgeon pin will mean that area of the piston will be cooler and therefore stronger anyway.
Neil

2005bully
6th October 2015, 08:01
Neil... Thanks to Google I now know that a Dunelt piston is stepped.... . Based on Ryger engine information listed on this forum, your basic principles are quite valid... IMO Simpler methods of implementation may still be available.... Example... Even the most experienced machinist is going to get goose bumps thinking how to machine, locate, and maintain the two bores with the required concentricity. Not impossible, but difficult at best. Another is the design of "transfer" reeds, providing adequate flow capacity in the time available. Your implementation of stiffer reed petals, which would have a side benefit of raising their resonate frequency is a good start. Kermit Buller

2005bully
6th October 2015, 08:32
As far as piston breakage. Most often breakage that is caused by piston acceleration starts as cracks in the transfer cut outs. If the piston has no cutouts those related stress risers are eliminated. The stress on the rod and piston are greatest near the top of the stroke. Faster combustion properly timed would to some extent help reduce those stresses. (small effect and only under full throttle) 100 to 135cc kart engines with careful consideration's will give acceptable rod and bearing life at extended run periods of 20,000 or higher rpms. That is a long ways from 30,000rpms. BUT I do not recall it ever being stated that the Ryger makes its most usable power at 30,000rpm's. Just that it is capable of running to that high of rpm's. Maybe acceptable piston life will be in minutes not hours???? Kermit Buller

AndreasL
6th October 2015, 09:34
Thanks for your input Grumphy.
I think you are right.

Leed
6th October 2015, 10:27
http://www.pattakon.com/tempman/Honda_2stroke_A.gif

the head may be standard 2T but what screws into the sparkplug hole? see Frits' photo attached hiding air injection/ignition?

Husabergs Honda 4 stroke link http://world.honda.com/powerproducts-technology/exlink/

to make 70hp at 30,000 I think it needs to make 85% of peak torque (assume at 13,000)
with less time it needs improved thermodynamic efficiency and/or greater pressure difference (flow through same port areas), and or later, quicker opening (what we might be hearing as it tears away at high revs)
improved efficiency from insulated cooler charge, at high pressure, with a 4T bottom end (cleaner emissions, burn/work done) cylinder/piston port not crankcase induction
we see a standard alloy crown in mock up - doesn't mean it doesn't run with a ceramic one - if the combustion (chamber and piston) can operate at (higher) flame temperature then less heat energy is lost to surroundings (cooling system) and more work is done on the crank
to achieve high rpm needs less mass (kinda goes against long piston theory) piston and short light rod (90mm, materials? beefy CF rod)
the long piston theory requires lots of crown force to be transferred down a long fragile skirt that may contain windows to a gudgeon at the bottom
if a light weight rod can be used then why is it shorter - is the short rod necessary must be to accommodate a linkage or modification of the stroke cycle

from LinkedIn Lennart van den Doel Lennart van den Doel https://nl.linkedin.com/in/lennartvandendoel
-In partnership with another company: Cryogenic treatment for all kind of metal alloys
-In partnership with another company: Ceramic plasma coating for aluminum, titanium and magnesium
-new kind of diesel injector (PFAMEN, porous fuel air mixing enhancing nozzle)
hollow titanium rods can be easily 'printed' with Additive Manufacturing technologies
a hollow rod with vertical only movement would still allow a sealed 4T crankcase if no long piston was used
a 4T crankcase requires cylinder induction
surely the multiple clues mean the 4T crankcase is a confirmed fact


Modena KK1 thermo insulating insert ... (windage and charge expansion)... 'removable insert built with thermally insulating
material, to maintain mixture temperature and improve volumetric efficiency'
http://www.vroomkart.com/sites/vroomkart.com/files/styles/scale_540x360/public/www.vroomkart.it/modena%20engines.jpg

as wobbly has alluded, with every factor involved, perhaps it is blueprinted from a pool best achievable ideas
anyone remember theglobe.com

Lightbulb
6th October 2015, 11:20
As far as piston breakage. Most often breakage that is caused by piston acceleration starts as cracks in the transfer cut outs. If the piston has no cutouts those related stress risers are eliminated. The stress on the rod and piston are greatest near the top of the stroke. Faster combustion properly timed would to some extent help reduce those stresses. (small effect and only under full throttle) 100 to 135cc kart engines with careful consideration's will give acceptable rod and bearing life at extended run periods of 20,000 or higher rpms. That is a long ways from 30,000rpms. BUT I do not recall it ever being stated that the Ryger makes its most usable power at 30,000rpm's. Just that it is capable of running to that high of rpm's. Maybe acceptable piston life will be in minutes not hours???? Kermit Buller

In model engines, the 1st sign of impending failure is the gudgeon pins flogging out , the other failure is piston collapse or a hole in the piston if run too lean.
It seems we are all looking for more complex things or arrangements rather than looking for more simple. Sometimes simple seems to be too simple and then we look at all the negatives we can think of,instead of the positive and the advantages of simple. If a conversion is done in a day or so, the same time as rebuilding an engine with a rod change, it can not be complicated in order to be done in that time frame.
Neil

peewee
6th October 2015, 11:29
hey frits in the photo with your hand over the engine top (previous pg), why is the carb not at the same angle as the cylinder inlet ? is it only because there isnt a suitable carb that can operate at that steep downward angle or is it some other reason ?

can anybody else make out whats just below the carb, the area where the carb would be if it was using the crankcase inlet ?

MotleyCrue
6th October 2015, 12:02
No, looking from the cylinder top down at the bore, you would see regular ports.Likewise looking through the exhaust port, all will look normal.
Neil

But if the piston is stepped and I moved the piston from top to bottom and looked in the exhaust port, I dont think that what I would see would be normal looking, or did I miss some info as to what would prevent me from seeing the step?

Leed
6th October 2015, 12:18
But if the piston is stepped and I moved the piston from top to bottom and looked in the exhaust port, I dont think that what I would see would be normal looking, or did I miss some info as to what would prevent me from seeing the step?

A KR-1 piston is 60mm long - the stroke is 50.6mm
If I look up the exhaust port at TDC - do you think I can see the last 10mm/bottom of the skirt?

Frits said that because it gives away nothing... sit in the exhaust what do you see nothing but skirt
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=315139&d=1440589336
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=314580&d=1439092763

"Even with the piston at BDC you would not notice that it is a Ryger engine... "

MotleyCrue
6th October 2015, 12:25
A KR-1 piston is 60mm long - the stroke is 50.6mm
If I look up the exhaust port at TDC - do you think I can see the last 10mm/bottom of the skirt?

I guess you have a point there.:Oops:

Flettner
6th October 2015, 13:29
i expect you have already spun this crank set up with something attached externally?, obviously not under load. how did it go? (you may have posted these findings previously, sorry to ask again ):sherlock: in reality i expect if its good enough for 17500-20000 rpm it would be job done

Breezy, I do have another crank system designed without a beam but that definitly stays in the draw for now, might be too embarrassing to show off:facepalm:
It allows for liner movement only, no centrifugal on the big end. Rod, bigend and piston can be one part, no gudgin pin at all. NO cams or cam rollers or cam tracks and is not single sided. BUT I would like to see it work before I open my big mouth!

polinizei
6th October 2015, 14:11
https://www.google.com/patents/DE102007045374A1?cl=en&dq=inassignee:%22Michael+Schradin%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBWoVChMI6vK28tmsyAIVxJMsCh0e0gMT

Passage 0023
Maybe in the rygerspacer is a simple transfer header contur, we usualy see in exhaust systems.


Passage 0026
Describes the effect of scavenging with higher speed.

Leed
6th October 2015, 14:34
could be made of 3 systems:
1. CYLINDER REED INDUCTION (top end)
2. '4T' BOTTOM END with 'reeded' inlet breather & 'reeded' crankcase outlet,
3. Pressure accumulator/receiver, for higher pressure charge injection

conventional Torque output is variable over a single stroke.
what IF it was more variable over two piston strokes...
if Tstroke2 = 2*Tstroke1 : every second stroke sequence Ts3 = Ts1
then Taverage = (Ts1 + Ts2)/2
mathematically you might get 70hp

^^^.....just a brain burp.... Ryger makes more power by sustaining near peak torque under increased revolutions

JanBros
6th October 2015, 17:54
to make 70hp at 30,000

it doesn't.
it makes 70BHP at 17.500 and is capable of revving 30.000 but for how long is still not known.

Frits Overmars
6th October 2015, 22:12
the head may be standard 2T but what screws into the sparkplug hole? see Frits' photo attached hiding air injection/ignition?I already explained that, Leed. In the spark plug hole there is nothing but a spark plug. I just put my hand on the plug cap to program my body into remembering where that plug cap was, because I didn't want to hurt my elbow while driving. At that same instant a photo was taken that went all over the internet.
Because of the flood of far-fetched reactions to this first photo we decided to put our hands on the plug cap again. And it worked again, as your reaction proves :D


we see a standard alloy crown in mock up - doesn't mean it doesn't run with a ceramic one There is no mock-up and I already stated that there are no ceramics.


if a light weight rod can be used then why is it shorter - is the short rod necessary must be to accommodate a linkage or modification of the stroke cycleAlready answered: a long rod can be used as well but it would make the engine higher.


Modena KZ1... removable insert built with thermally insulating material, to maintain mixture temperature and improve volumetric efficiency'
as wobbly has alluded, with every factor involved, perhaps it is blueprinted from a pool best achievable ideas. anyone remember theglobe.comThe removable insert in the Modena engine was an idea from my friend Roland Holzner, Modena's technical director.
The suggestion to use a thermo-insulating material for the insert was mine.

Frits Overmars
6th October 2015, 22:33
hey frits in the photo with your hand over the engine top (previous pg), why is the carb not at the same angle as the cylinder inlet ? is it only because there isnt a suitable carb that can operate at that steep downward angle or is it some other reason ?That downward angle isn't steep at all and the carb could easily be fitted with a straight inlet rubber; it would even improve the flow somewhat.
But then the carb and the airbox would be pointing upward in the same space where the driver's elbow is. Re-arranging a carb is easier than re-arranging an elbow.

Peter1962
7th October 2015, 00:11
Frits, the vast majority of the existing 2 stroke MX engines have case reed induction. In fact, the only cilinder reed engine is the yamaha YZ 250.
Is that a problem for 'rygerising' those existing engines ? Or can both types of engine be converted tot the ryger technique ?

Frits Overmars
7th October 2015, 03:51
Frits, the vast majority of the existing 2 stroke MX engines have case reed induction. In fact, the only cilinder reed engine is the yamaha YZ 250. Is that a problem for 'rygerising' those existing engines ? Or can both types of engine be converted tot the ryger technique ?No problem as far as the Ryger principle is concerned. The only problem I can think of, is one of space: can you lodge the carb between the cylinder and the air filter on those machines?

d2t
7th October 2015, 04:28
Could there possibly be any tuning benefit to using a rotary valve intake or would that upset the Ryger timing somehow?

breezy
7th October 2015, 07:11
Breezy, I do have another crank system designed without a beam but that definitly stays in the draw for now, might be too embarrassing to show off:facepalm:
It allows for liner movement only, no centrifugal on the big end. Rod, bigend and piston can be one part, no gudgin pin at all. NO cams or cam rollers or cam tracks and is not single sided. BUT I would like to see it work before I open my big mouth!

would you think that if the highest combustion pressure occuring in this engine happend well after tcd that it would relieve the stress on the crank set up? trying to find out about hcci, has this been confirmed as whats going on in the engine?

nitro2tfx
7th October 2015, 08:53
I do not usually respond to commercials,

Sorry about that Frits, I can see how busy you are with forums and I assumed you must be flatout overwhelmed with private messages and e-mails most of the time, so that was my simple way to give you the info.

In the past I have quietly followed comments from yourself and Jan on the Pitlane site, and then of course for awhile now on this site. Very interesting threads, and of course we are all awaiting the Ryger unveiling as I suspect it will indeed be a gamechanger, possibly further reaching than anticipated.

Frits Overmars
7th October 2015, 09:17
Sorry about that Frits, I can see how busy you are with forums and I assumed you must be flatout overwhelmed with private messages and e-mails most of the time, so that was my simple way to give you the info.Don't worry about that, Clint. Vannik made me realize how valuable your offer is and if it were just me, I'd seize the opportunity right now. But you can imagine the commotion about the Ryger; planning anything is almost impossible.


In the past I have quietly followed comments from yourself and Jan on the Pitlane site, and then of course for awhile now on this site. Very interesting threads, and of course we are all awaiting the Ryger unveiling as I suspect it will indeed be a gamechanger, possibly further reaching than anticipated.I think so too. The engine power and its willingness to rev may have set the tone initially, but the fuel economy and emissions will turn out to be much more important.

crbbt
7th October 2015, 10:25
Phew! I thought I was going to have to throw my nx4 cases and whole bike in a furnace because the ryger concept wouldn't work with case induction.

Frits Overmars
7th October 2015, 10:39
Frits, the vast majority of the existing 2 stroke MX engines have case reed induction. In fact, the only cilinder reed engine is the yamaha YZ 250. Is that a problem for 'rygerising' those existing engines ? Or can both types of engine be converted tot the ryger technique ?


No problem as far as the Ryger principle is concerned. The only problem I can think of, is one of space: can you lodge the carb between the cylinder and the air filter on those machines?


Phew! I thought I was going to have to throw my nx4 cases and whole bike in a furnace because the ryger concept wouldn't work with case induction.This is a nice example of how misunderstandings can arise.
I said case induction engines could be rygerised; I never said you could maintain the case induction. It's the same for rotary engines; they can be rygerised.

Grumph
7th October 2015, 11:00
This is a nice example of how misunderstandings can arise.
I said case induction engines could be rygerised; I never said you could maintain the case induction. It's the same for rotary engines; they can be rygerised.

Not intended to be a leading question m'lud, but i have a suspicion that a piston port reed induction motor may be the easiest to Rygerise...

diesel pig
7th October 2015, 13:29
Not intended to be a leading question m'lud, but i have a suspicion that a piston port reed induction motor may be the easiest to Rygerise...

IF that is the case I will keeping one H100 bottom end with MB50 six speed box in it for future use;)

TZ350
7th October 2015, 15:46
IF that is the case I will keeping one H100 bottom end with MB50 six speed box in it for future use;)

I have a couple of TF/TS100's put aside for the same purpose...... :yes:

Peter1962
7th October 2015, 16:45
This is a nice example of how misunderstandings can arise.
I said case induction engines could be rygerised; I never said you could maintain the case induction. It's the same for rotary engines; they can be rygerised.

That would be fantastic for Mazda, who have always struggled with emissions and consumption on their wankel engines. In fact, those were the reason to put production on hold temporarily.

peewee
7th October 2015, 16:59
Not intended to be a leading question m'lud, but i have a suspicion that a piston port reed induction motor may be the easiest to Rygerise...

these are cheap as peanuts

Frits Overmars
7th October 2015, 21:12
This is a nice example of how misunderstandings can arise. I said case induction engines could be rygerised; I never said you could maintain the case induction. It's the same for rotary engines; they can be rygerised.
That would be fantastic for Mazda, who have always struggled with emissions and consumption on their wankel engines. I love this: you beat me with my own arms, Peter.
I meant rotary valve engines as opposed to reed valve engines; not rotary piston engines as opposed to reciprocating piston engines.
This will teach me to write unambiguously from now on :D.

Frits Overmars
7th October 2015, 21:17
Not intended to be a leading question m'lud, but i have a suspicion that a piston port reed induction motor may be the easiest to Rygerise...If by piston port reed induction you mean the old Suzuki setup in Peewees above picture: Nah...

crbbt
7th October 2015, 22:17
Arh oh well. I've picked a good time to snap a femur then!

Frits - will there be art pieces hung up around the Ryger workshop with quotes of the possible ideas for how the Ryger works?

Frits Overmars
7th October 2015, 22:25
Frits - will there be art pieces hung up around the Ryger workshop with quotes of the possible ideas for how the Ryger works?We've been thinking about a booklet containing the most hilarious ideas, but art pieces is a good idea as well.

F5 Dave
7th October 2015, 22:26
Ahh, its all done with blue smoke and mirrors.

m4r
8th October 2015, 01:16
so can we say the Ryger is about "Controlled Auto Ignition" (CAI) and now it's about to figure out how the cylinder is scavenged to get enough fresh mixture inside but also keeping a little exhaust gas in it or maybe letting it flow back from the exhaust port in to the cylinder to provide the right conditions for CAI?

casal-fan
8th October 2015, 04:21
so can we say the Ryger is about "Controlled Auto Ignition" (CAI) and now it's about to figure out how the cylinder is scavenged to get enough fresh mixture inside but also keeping a little exhaust gas in it or maybe letting it flow back from the exhaust port in to the cylinder to provide the right conditions for CAI?
+1:clap:

Frits, you wrote that the Ryger Engine team lacks mesuring instruments... wich is a pitty.
But, exhaust gas temperature somewhere in the pipe has perhaps been measured, as all it takes to do that is rather unexpensive.
If you (or someother working on the Ryger Engine) have, would it possible to share it with us?

seattle smitty
8th October 2015, 04:55
From my barely-educated perspective it seems as though the trick they figured out was how to get a homogenous (emphasize that) A/F mixture waiting in the combustion chamber as the piston approaches TDC, creating this from a not-so-homogenous mixture coming out of an ordinary carburetor, and, I guess, achieving this by some more effective means than turbulence from a squishband . . . . What's the mixer-upper? And is that homogenous mixture an aerosol? a vapor? With our engines the semi-mixture coming out of the carburetor gets worse as it proceeds through the crankcase and gets slung around the transfers with the heavy fuel falling out of the air as it goes, with our squishband turbulence getting it somewhat re-mixed at the last instant. So again, how is Ryger getting an ideal mixture (ideal meaning it will all light off at once) starting with just a dumb old carburetor??? With heat? With a mechanical mixer? Both?

To Frits, a couple of pages back I wondered if some sort of microwave ignition had been devised. From your response, evidently not. FWIW, Dr Christopher Jacobs (electrical engineering), having done a lot of good work in the medical field, decided to spend some time on his other interest of hot-rodding and auto racing. This is maybe 20-25 years ago. He designed a computerized ignition system and a bunch of interesting accessory devices, and formed Jacobs Electronics to produce and sell them. Jacobs soon got out of the business and sold the company; I think that quality control problems and dealing with the public soured him on the business side of it. Whatever, while he was still enthusiastically designing his ignition parts, Jacobs had a little team experimenting with some sort of microwave ignition system, which he expected to eventually supercede all the conventional systems. I don't know how far they got with it, or what became of the project after the company was sold.

What is the distinction between a homogenous A/F mixture igniting simultaneously in all parts of the combustion chamber, and detonation, besides the initiating source of ignition and the fact that the timing of HCCI is controlled and detonation is not? Can HCCI be called time-controlled detonation?

As you see, I am doing my best to get into your scrapbook of hilarious Ryger speculations.:wacko:

d2t
8th October 2015, 05:25
I said case induction engines could be rygerised; I never said you could maintain the case induction. It's the same for rotary engines; they can be rygerised.

So case induction engines can be used if the case is blocked-off and a cylinder induction top end is swapped-in? Likewise rotary valve blocked in that engine layout? How convenient. :facepalm:

Although I'm not at the level of understanding of some of you guys, my final attempt at a guess is that the piston has special ports in the side that are exposed to the intake/exhaust ports of the cylinder at different times during the stroke. The fresh charge and returning exhaust wave enter the piston at the ports (instead of traveling back into the combustion area), and are channeled down through piston's center area and into the magic spacer shown in previous Ryger photos. There, they can mix either in the spacer or crankcase and wait a full cycle to give the fuel plenty of time to atomize. When the piston travels down during the next cycle, the mixed charge enters the cylinder through the spacer and into the cylinder's standard A/B ports. Normal combustion takes place and is now a much more efficient burn! Then the cycle repeats such that there are always two separate areas of charge within the engine.

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If this is total nonsense then I hope it's at least good for a laugh. Included is a crude illustration that I made at my desk during my lunch break. I'll shut-up now and leave the serious discussion to you professionals. Carry on.

tz125global
8th October 2015, 07:48
morris lubricants uk make a castor oil in 30 40 50 as far as i know they have a distributor in aus

breezy
8th October 2015, 08:38
We've been thinking about a booklet containing the most hilarious ideas, but art pieces is a good idea as well.



316413


ahh, so thats how its done:laugh:

Flettner
8th October 2015, 10:31
[QUOTE


ahh, so thats how its done:laugh:[/QUOTE]

Yes, using a RAT. Radical Atomising Technique:wacko:

wobbly
8th October 2015, 13:38
There is no way the long piston thats connected to the short 90mm conventional rod is going to survive at 30K.

WilDun
8th October 2015, 14:23
There is no way the long piston thats connected to the short 90mm conventional rod is going to survive at 30K.

Especially as it's taking all the sidethrust you are going to get with a short rod - (and no oil??).

Lightbulb
8th October 2015, 14:43
Well, I have just finished designing a shorter rod for the 6.5cc engine and with the gudgeon now lower down the piston, it seems that the assembly will be about 0.6 grams lighter. In conjunction with a longer cylinder liner so that the side of the piston is now supported to BDC, I think that the over all system will be better. Just have to make all the bits now. This is not a Ryger setup though, but have been doing some numbers all the same. It seems for model engines that have a propellor fixed to the crankshaft so are not allowed gear reductions etc, there is no advantage that is immediately obvious in the Ryger system over the current model engine designs .
With the use of DLC coatings and newer alloys to make pistons from, it could very well be possible to have a guided and sealed bottom side to a 2t engine without it seizing. The seal does not have to be part of the piston itself, but could be an almost zero contact seal attached to the underside of the magic plate we can see.
I do find it hard to believe the 30 k RPM without failing, and maybe the secret is so blindingly obvious that we just can't see it. F1 engines that were doing over 20K seemed incredible enough, but they were no more stroke than the Ryger really.
Neil

SwePatrick
8th October 2015, 15:56
If looking at the outside of the cylinder.(ryger engine)
the 'bulges' that contains the transferports A and B are suspiciously shaped.
As the have a very sharp turn inside, like 180 degree from above the pistoncrown and directly to under the crown.

SwePatrick
8th October 2015, 16:01
Especially as it's taking all the sidethrust you are going to get with a short rod - (and no oil??).

Lets say there is a rod mounted to the piston that is sealed through the spacerplate and with some bearing to take the sideloads from connectionrod.
then you got a very rigid setup to take the beating.

Rgds.

jonny quest
8th October 2015, 16:20
I had originally thought the spacer plate contained linear slide for a round connecting rod attached to piston. Then a standard crank arrangement under spacer. I don't think there's enough room for that. Plus the pins and bearings connecting the two "rods" seem complicated and weak.

I'm lost too Wobbly. .. and I always hated waiting to open my Xmas presents. This is worse. I don't have patience!

jonny quest
8th October 2015, 16:23
Maybe you could answer this Frits, since we're best friends now. Is the Ryger piston lighter or heavier than a RS125 piston?

MotleyCrue
8th October 2015, 17:05
If looking at the outside of the cylinder.(ryger engine)
the 'bulges' that contains the transferports A and B are suspiciously shaped.
As the have a very sharp turn inside, like 180 degree from above the pistoncrown and directly to under the crown.

Seems that way. If 5 transfers are in the cylinder above the piston at BDC like normal and 5 transfers are say 25 mm (just a guess) lower down the cylinder wall and the piston has openings in it to match the lower transfers that would take care of 10 of the 11 transfers and would be a simple enough engine modification. It would also make the piston lighter because it would be full of machined holes. Maybe some other unrelated piston machining would lighten it further. That would help with rpm if the main weight was just the rod, piston material around the rod bearing, the crown and just enough material under the crown to transfer the load from the crown to the rod. As rpm goes up the actual peak load of the piston pushing down on the rod gets less and less because of piston acceleration and less yet at overrev when the engine isnt making as much torque.

If it is a day's work to convert an engine to a Ryger engine surely Frits wouldn't have us making a brand new ultra long unobtanium piston during that single day, in addition to whatever else is needed. I would think it would involve some sort of modifications to a standard piston, not making one from scratch.

It seems to make some sense and is simple. Now for figuring out the reasoning behind possibly doing the 180 degree transfers through the piston and what the 11th port would be. Tomorrow's thought project.

peewee
8th October 2015, 17:34
http://www.google.com/patents/US4724800 maybe this can rev very high ?

ken seeber
8th October 2015, 18:44
Fellers,
Just thought I’d get my mind clear on the Ryger features that we know of:

• 90 rod with the standard VM bore and stroke
• Same crankshaft & cylinder head
• Reed valve appears to be positioned as in pics, essentially shifting this from the standard KZ crankcase position to the cylinder in a position similar to Rotax/Aprilia cylinders
• Wet bottom end
• Ř30 carb is fed with straight fuel
• 20 mm spacer plate under cylinder
• Slightly modified (internally) cylinder, sort of implying at least the A & B ports (from the outside) and presumably C ports are utilized.
• Single exh port
• Plain piston skirt visible thru exh port
• 11 transfers passages are indicated. Assuming the standard transfers are utilized, this means another 6 passages are added
• An engine can be converted in one day, sort of indicating that, with the addition of certain key components and there wouldn’t be casting changes required
• The system can be applied to crankcase scavenged engines, reed or rotary valve, not sure about piston port. Whether this means that the existing inlet system is retained or blanked off and replaced with the cylinder reed is unclear.
• Can be applied to four stroke engines in terms of mechanical and thermodynamic aspects, but not gas dynamics

Anything missing or wrong?

Frits, any more titbits to add?

philou
8th October 2015, 21:01
Ryger ?

Reed valve piston

http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/2633/clapetpisotn.jpg

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/8007/clapetpiston.jpg

http://www.emoticonland.net/smileys/lol/lollol356.gif

Lightbulb
8th October 2015, 21:30
I like the melted piston fix. Very funny indeed.


Neil

Frits Overmars
8th October 2015, 22:08
Yesterday I mailed Harry Ryger the link to Breezys post with the Rygerised-cartoon:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130909828#post1130909828
When he clicked on it he got this:
ryger, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:
Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.Harry repeatedly reported this problem before. No wonder we do not see any reactions from him here.


As rpm goes up the actual peak load of the piston pushing down on the rod gets less and less because of piston acceleration and less yet at overrev when the engine isnt making as much torque.As the revs go up into Ryger territory the piston isn't pushing down on the rod at all; the rod has to pull the piston down because combustion pressure alone cannot accelerate the piston fast enough.
Then after the piston has passed its max.velocity position it has to be slowed down again so now it starts pushing down on the rod - the higher the rpm, the harder it will push.


Maybe you could answer this Frits, since we're best friends now. Is the Ryger piston lighter or heavier than a RS125 piston?Nice question my friend. Do you mean the Honda RS125 production racer or the Aprilia RS125 street bike or maybe some other brand that I don't know of yet?
Never mind; I do not have the piston weight of either bike at hand.


Fellers, Just thought I’d get my mind clear on the Ryger features that we know of:
• 90 rod with the standard VM bore and stroke
• Same crankshaft & cylinder head
• Reed valve appears to be positioned as in pics, essentially shifting this from the standard KZ crankcase position to the cylinder in a position similar to Rotax/Aprilia cylinders
• Wet bottom end
• Ř30 carb is fed with straight fuel
• 20 mm spacer plate under cylinder
• Slightly modified (internally) cylinder, sort of implying at least the A & B ports (from the outside) and presumably C ports are utilized.
• Single exh port
• Plain piston skirt visible thru exh port
• 11 transfers passages are indicated. Assuming the standard transfers are utilized, this means another 6 passages are added
• An engine can be converted in one day, sort of indicating that, with the addition of certain key components and there wouldn’t be casting changes required
• The system can be applied to crankcase scavenged engines, reed or rotary valve, not sure about piston port. Whether this means that the existing inlet system is retained or blanked off and replaced with the cylinder reed is unclear.
• Can be applied to four stroke engines in terms of mechanical and thermodynamic aspects, but not gas dynamics12 of the 13 items you specified are correct. The one remaining item is not exactly wrong but I feel it would need some clarification. Alas, I am not yet allowed to give it.

SwePatrick
8th October 2015, 22:23
As the revs go up into Ryger territory the piston isn't pushing down on the rod at all; the rod has to pull the piston down because combustion pressure alone cannot accelerate the piston fast enough.
Then after the piston has passed its max.velocity position it has to be slowed down again so now it starts pushing down on the rod - the higher the rpm, the harder it will push.

That seems in my eye´s impossible.
If there is no power(pressure) on piston, how can it accelerate?
As when a twostroke has it´s fastest pistonspeed just before or after exhaust opens.
And as you stated, the cylinder doesn´t give away anything if piston is in it´s lowest position, about 195-200degree duration exhaust.
Perpeteum mobile?

husaberg
8th October 2015, 22:38
Yesterday I mailed Harry Ryger the link to Breezys post with the Rygerised-cartoon:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130909828#post1130909828
When he clicked on it he got this:Harry repeatedly reported this problem before. No wonder we do not see any reactions from him here.

.


http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/member.php/48608-ryger

It appears his profile has been set to Made BOO BOO in Nappies I would say its a spam related misunderstanding I have reported it to Mr Trousers.

Frits Overmars
8th October 2015, 22:41
That seems in my eye´s impossible. If there is no power(pressure) on piston, how can it accelerate?It can't. But you may want to reread my post. And if that doesn't help, then take a look here: http://www.pit-lane.biz/t1461p32-technique-moteurs-motogp

Frits Overmars
8th October 2015, 22:42
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/member.php/48608-ryger
It appears his profile has been set to Made BOO BOO in Nappies I would say its a spam related misunderstanding I have reported it to Ms Trousers.Thanks Husa.

ief
8th October 2015, 23:05
(ryger)

Not really thought it through but here goes...

What if the piston isn't attached to the conrod at all?

Frits Overmars
8th October 2015, 23:20
What if the piston isn't attached to the conrod at all?You've lost me, Ief. How about a little sketch (for the future Ryger Art Gallery)?

jonny quest
9th October 2015, 00:43
How long have you known about the Ryger, and it's concept Frits?

MotleyCrue
9th October 2015, 02:10
As the revs go up into Ryger territory the piston isn't pushing down on the rod at all; the rod has to pull the piston down because combustion pressure alone cannot accelerate the piston fast enough.
Then after the piston has passed its max.velocity position it has to be slowed down again so now it starts pushing down on the rod - the higher the rpm, the harder it will push.



Makes perfect sense. I just wasnt sure how high in the rpm it would have to be before that happened.

ief
9th October 2015, 02:24
You've lost me, Ief. How about a little sketch (for the future Ryger Art Gallery)?

Not exactly the reaction I was going for, maybe should have thought about it a litlle bit more, lol. Lets call it a brainfart then ;)

Anyways, something like this, not to scale and all that.

F5 Dave
9th October 2015, 03:42
I had a piston arrangement just like that when the top disconnected above the gungeon pin. I can confirm that it was less than satisfactory in operation, and increased lap times significantly.

ZdenekK
9th October 2015, 04:18
I've been reading this thread for some time with great interest and would like to thank you for sharing all the knowledge and great ideas on two-strokes. It's very inspiring.
As most of us there I'm very curious on the Ryger engine.
Then I got to post of MotleyCrue on page 1323 with reatarding of timing and start thinking, what if... :)

If we shorten the piston skirt on exhaust side enough to connect crankcase with exhaust so it will open and close like piston-ported intake, then with right timing the blow-down presure erupting from opening exhaust port will enter crankcase and boost its pressure (pressure ratio of crankcase-cylinder). Good for high rpm, hot exhaust gases probably good for starting HCCI and as a bonus the engine will be still possible to start like before.
What more, if the engine rev high enough, so the returning positive wave from exhaut woud be otherwise too late to push escaping mixture back to cylinder, it will push it thru just opened "port" under the piston to crankcase. Boosting its pressure again and pushing the RPM higher.
If this works it can mean that the exhaust pipe in powerband is not pushing mixture back into cylinder anymore, but to the crankcase instead.
Relatively cold exhaust gases of HCCI in combination with requirement of late returning positive wave from pipe can explain why the exhaust pipe on the Ryger looks very common for such extreme revs.

It's crazy enough and very simple in principle, requiring not more than cutting-off piston skirt and retarding ignition.

You can replace crankcase with "volume under the piston" in my text above, because in Ryger it probably isn't crankcase.
If such idea or in that manner was already presented, just ignore my post.

Questin of mechanical reliability at 30kRPM is stil beyond me.

PS: sorry for my poor english
BTW connecting of exhaust to crankcase is nothing new, it's been done in karting for years, just not in such extreme way.

Regards
ZdenekK - Czech moped rider :)

breezy
9th October 2015, 04:32
Not exactly the reaction I was going for, maybe should have thought about it a litlle bit more, lol. Lets call it a brainfart then ;)

Anyways, something like this, not to scale and all that.

how about some kind of fluid damping within a link between conrod and piston taking all the major combustion hammering and smoothing it out.?

jasonu
9th October 2015, 04:39
Fellers,
Just thought I’d get my mind clear on the Ryger features that we know of:


Anything missing or wrong?


Rings don't touch the piston.

Frits Overmars
9th October 2015, 04:52
If we shorten the piston skirt on exhaust side enough to connect crankcase with exhaust so it will open and close like piston-ported intake, then with right timing the blow-down pressure erupting from opening exhaust port will enter crankcase and boost its pressureVítejte ZdenekK.
Shortening the underside of the piston so that the exhaust duct and the volume under the piston are connected when the piston is at Top Dead Center, has indeed been done before. But at TDC the pressure in the exhaust duct is lower than the pressure under the piston, so there will not be any boosting.


if the engine rev high enough, so the returning positive wave from exhaust would be otherwise too late to push escaping mixture back to cylinder, it will push it thru just opened "port" under the piston to crankcase.That would require that this under-piston connection opens right after exhaust port closure. It would be open during maybe 140°; any pressure-rise would have leaked out again by the time the transfers open. It would also mess up the induction phase: instead of inhaling through the carburettor, the engine would inhale exhaust gas...

polinizei
9th October 2015, 06:28
Rings don't touch the piston.
Small Tube between crankcase and reed housing.

Container with some sensors, filter on top and tube on bottom.


Ryger Homologation
http://www.cikfia.com/fileadmin/content/REGULATIONS/Homologations/Homologated%20Equipment/2015/Homol-materiel-2016_Web.pdf

wobbly
9th October 2015, 07:04
IEFs sketch once again has a "normal " con rod shown - and once again I remind everyone that this will simply destroy itself at 30K.
The Ryger Homologation I posted the day it was issued - that is simply a list of the applications that have been received to be considered,its
NOT in any way confirmation that the engine has been accepted by the CIK - yet.

adegnes
9th October 2015, 07:11
Meanwhile in Norway...

316428

TZ350
9th October 2015, 07:21
For those of you that don't know, Av is 2015 European Woman's Cup winner. Stunning result.


Latest email from Av. for those that don't know her, Av started her road racing carer in Buckets. And when ever she is back here she likes to come down to Mt Wellington for a scoot around and generally show the boys how its done.


Hi everyone,

After a long, but successful season I'm sad to say that the 2015 European Junior Cup has eventually come to an end after the final round of the championship was held in Magny Cours, France, this past weekend. I am now in the UK ready to fly home after a rapid weekend and a drive from France. Sorry for the delay in sending this out but it's been a busy few days!

The cold autumn weather was well set in just south of Paris right from set up day at the track on Thursday and the chill definitely persisted throughout the weekend. I managed to get a track walk in before the weekend got under-way, with Australian stock 600 rider Lachlan Epis and also World Superbike racer Leon Camier who was super helpful in giving some hints about this difficult circuit I had never seen before. We also managed to get a small issue with my bike fixed from Jerez so I was feeling ready to attack the challenging weekend ahead.

Friday practice went as expected; I took it easy to come to grips with the circuit and it's fast, flowing chicanes. In the first qualifying on Friday afternoon I ended up in 22nd position which was a good start, but I was looking forward to improving on that during the second qualifying on Saturday.

Despite very cloudy, drizzly weather in the second qualifying session I managed to improve my time by 0.4 seconds, before half way through the 30 minute session it started to rain heavy enough that we all pulled into the pits. I was happy with my improvement but unfortunately two other riders improved more and I was knocked back to 24th from 31 starters on the EJC grid for the race on Sunday. I certainly wasn't happy with this. Many of the riders had been testing here in the weeks previous and it clearly showed. I knew I had a lot of work to do on Sunday to be back up where I should be!

316429316430

It lightened me up to see the FIM Stock 600cc race on Saturday afternoon where my partner Jake finished in a fantastic 12th position and fellow kiwi Al Hoogenboezem ended up 20th, despite wet and incredibly slippery track conditions. There were many crashes so both guys did well just to stay upright! Seeing those conditions, I was relieved it wasn't my race and had my fingers crossed for fine weather on Sunday!

Race day saw an improvement in the weather although the track took a while to dry from rain overnight and the first Superbike and Supersport race were held on a wet circuit. Thanks to the help of Jake and mechanic James Hoogenboezem everything went well leading up to the race and I was confident my bike was ready to do the business. Unfortunately at the start of my race I made two mistakes on the first lap which saw me drop back to last position briefly. This left even more work to do for the remaining 9 laps! I managed to find a nice pace, which saw me go faster than in qualifying for the first time this year, and passed all the girls to still win the Women's Cup part of the race. I ended up 19th overall too which wasn't so bad. I also learnt a lot about my own riding and my race strategy which is mega important - you can never lose, just learn.

After the race and podium ceremonies, EJC overall winner Javi Orellana and I were rushed onto the front straight for a photo of all the World Superbike winners. What an honour it was to line up alongside Jonathan Rea and Kenan Sofoglu! This was the moment it all set in for me, and that I realised the fact that it was history being made as I was the first ever female to be in this line up. It was an incredibly proud moment.

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We also had a FIM prize-giving Ceremony that evening, where I was officially awarded with my FIM medal and trophy for the series win.

316432316433

I cannot say thank you enough to all of you amazing people for making this possible!! There are so many factors that make it difficult for a kiwi to compete in this sport internationally, but money is probably the biggest hurdle. Each of you helping me just that little bit is what has made this possible. I know areas which I can certainly improve on but I also know I gave most of it my absolute best and came away achieving the goal of winning the Women's Cup. If I get the chance again, I know what I need to do to run at the front of the championship with the boys and I would really like to make that a reality but we'll see what the future brings. For now all I can say is thank you for joining me on this extraordinary journey in 2015! I look forward to meeting as many of you as possible in NZ and Australasia over the coming months.

Kind regards,
Avalon #21

316435

seattle smitty
9th October 2015, 09:49
Ken Seeber, on your list you have "spacer plate," but I believe Frits has also called it a "spacer/valve-plate," which would seem an important distinction.

And as an additional line, you could add "HCCI ignition/combustion," IF I'm making a valid inference.

monkeyfumi
9th October 2015, 09:55
Wobbly, I understand that part of the CIK homologation is a fixed straight line ignition, but is there anything that stipulates what advance this is at?

I.e are they all at (lets say) 15 deg before TDC?

Frits Overmars
9th October 2015, 10:10
Wobbly, I understand that part of the CIK homologation is a fixed straight line ignition, but is there anything that stipulates what advance this is at? I.e are they all at (lets say) 15 deg before TDC?The ignition is not allowed to vary more than 3° over the entire rpm range, but how you want to set it, is up to you.

wobbly
9th October 2015, 10:23
Frits is right, the latest homologation of the PVL has a couple of very slight downward "steps " at set rpms.
This is within the CIK rules and of course all the later engines with this newer homologation ignition have this very slight retarding function.
It allows a slight increase in static timing, giving a little better mid power,or can be used to give a little better overev.
Where the static timing is set is entirely free choice.

monkeyfumi
9th October 2015, 14:00
Thanks for the replies.

From what I can gather, the Ryger fires quite close to TDC, and I was just wondering how the rules might affect that.

RomeuPT
9th October 2015, 14:33
Hello again.

Sorry if this question was posted before, I didn't saw it...

Frits how much time do you think it will take for the patent to be aproved and the final disclosure comes out?

Can't fit on my mind how a 90mm rod will survive so much rpm with a normal rotating cranckshaft.

peewee
9th October 2015, 15:51
Rings don't touch the piston.

is there even any rings ?

mr bucketracer
9th October 2015, 16:12
is there even any rings ?wife wont me happy if not (-;

husaberg
9th October 2015, 16:29
IEFs sketch once again has a "normal " con rod shown - and once again I remind everyone that this will simply destroy itself at 30K.
.

I have already posted this graph from Frits in the graph I believe is the answer to how a 2 stroke might be able to survive extreme RPM
You might need to read between the lines.
If it had Cushioning at both TDC and BDC

Brett S
9th October 2015, 16:34
If it has a stepped piston of some sort with a seal between case and rod this could be used more than a air cushion but as a HCCI chamber to push piston back up?

Flettner
9th October 2015, 16:42
If it has a stepped piston of some sort with a seal between case and rod this could be used more than a air cushion but as a HCCI chamber to push piston back up?

Yes, the old one stroke trick:wacko: Old steam engine tech, fire both ends (free piston). Only 35HP needed each end;)
Imagine trying to cool that piston.

MotleyCrue
9th October 2015, 17:10
Frits, I have a particular cylinder reed valve engine that I will want to convert to a Ryger engine when the time comes. I am sitting here with new 0.040" over pistons and some cylinders with cast iron liners that need to be bored and honed for the pistons. In the interest of saving time and effort, should I go ahead and have the cylinders bored and honed now then wait on the Ryger specifics to come out or should I just wait for the Ryger info and relevant machining before having the boring/honing done.

I have a feeling it is likely the latter that you will suggest, but if it doesnt matter too much then I would rather have the people doing the boring/honing not see anything unusual so I would have that done first. There will be some lag between interested parties such as myself learning about the Ryger engine and the people doing the boring/honing learning about the Ryger engine. It is a vintage engine.

peewee
9th October 2015, 17:38
frits see what youve done. guys put their life on hold waiting by the computer for the day you spill the beans. tell them it could be years before you talk :laugh:

TZ350
9th October 2015, 19:10
Frits see what you've done. guys put their life on hold waiting by the computer for the day you spill the beans. tell them it could be years before you talk :laugh:

My thoughts exactly, people should pull finger and get out in the shed and make something.

Like these Norwegians and their inertia dyno.


Meanwhile in Norway...

316428

Or Flettners Sleeve Valve Engine.


Sleeve engine running. I guess this would have to be the first open ended sleeve twostoke running since Riccardo? Maybe.
Now to fit exhausts and gearbox to make it usable, to put REAL thermal load on it.


https://youtu.be/bwsu5td6nko


https://youtu.be/9tHnBHh3VnM

Useful stuff for your project.


I seen this site the other day some useful stuff here Rod ends etc

http://www.partzonline.co.nz/rod-end-female-c-100_89_307_894.html
http://www.partzonline.co.nz/rod-end-male-c-100_89_307_895.html
http://www.partzonline.co.nz/tee-nuts-c-100_487_489_648.html


Electric Water Pump.


Bosch aux coolant pump found in many Mercs and VWs pumps 25l/min unrestricted @12v, about 1-1.5amp - not bad at all. Don't know how much juice it can handle, but 15v should work, maybe more.

Loctite


Here's a thread with lot's of loctite info, http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/loctite.265016/



Awesome free tech 50 out of europe

316492


Weren't you thinking along the same lines, TeeZee? Here are some more pictures of the bike; I'm anxious to see it find its way between the six-speed Freetech bikes.

315529315530315531315532315533315534

Maybe not the Ryger but a very informative read.


Ryger http://www.globalarmenianheritage-adic.fr/iconographie/smiley_interrogatif.JPG

http://www.pit-lane.biz/t5235-2-stroke-fast-by-tim-hickox


the Site that I will link list the ring locations
http://www.pvlsverige.se/vrm/index/index22.html

I will add to the list later most are rods
but have a look at TKRJ and Prox plus makita can't find the site at the moment or they changed it site for sizes try some of the 250 karts like Rotax can't remember who used to make the pistons for them? some Austrian company have a look at KTM.
Woosner, Wiesco

http://www.mxcomposites.com/con_rod.php
http://www.mxcomposites.com/con_rod.php
http://www.connectingrod.com.tw/ktm.htm
http://www.pro-x.com/downloads/Technical.pdf
http://www.kevinbreedonracing.co.uk/products_conrods.asp
http://www.connectingrod.com.tw/honda.htm
http://www.samarin.nl/webshop/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=32
http://www.tkrj.co.jp/
http://findebookee.com/c/connecting-rod the one is capt
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/399336/Pictures/Posted/HotRod.pdf
http://www.kingrod.com.tw/products.php?func=p_list&pc_parent=22
http://www.crankshaftparts.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=67_93&limit=100
http://shop.atlanticmotoplex.ca/productdetail.htm?productId=10295201&browse=256115&shopBy=13698&catalogId=2016
http://jjmachineryonline.com/snowmobile/crankshaft-rebuild-kits-and-parts/connecting-rods
http://www.scooter-center.com/scoweb...y2=CAT&lang=en
http://www.bansheedepot.com/products.asp?cat=17
http://http://www.samarin.net/?productos (http://www.samarin.net/?productos)
http://www.pvlsverige.se/vrm/index/index22.html
http://www.con-rod.com.tw/motorcycle-connecting-rod.htm
http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mingyang-group.2u.com.tw%2Fpdf%2FCAPT-conrod.pdf&ei=iBQJVdibIdXv8gWHmIHoDQ&usg=AFQjCNFf-gNnmOpzO-D1MVppLeMVAqjHUA


PS the Piston maker I couldn't remember the name of that made pistons for Rotax was Elko

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KTM-250-300-GS-MC-Enduro-MX-Kolben-piston-ELKO-1697-70mm-/371463234800?hash=item567cef24f0&vxp=mtr



This lists a fair bit of information on each years changes
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/CATALOGUE/PISTON_DIMS_ALL.htm

YZ250
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/YAMAHA%20PISTONS/PT.88YZ250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/YAMAHA%20PISTONS/PT.99YZ250.htm

RM250
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/SUZUKI%20PISTONS/PT.87RM250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/SUZUKI%20PISTONS/PT.96RM250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/SUZUKI%20PISTONS/PT.98RM250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/SUZUKI%20PISTONS/PT.99RM250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/SUZUKI%20PISTONS/PT.00RM250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/SUZUKI%20PISTONS/PT.03RM250.htm

KX250
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/KAWASAKI%20PISTONS/PT.87KX250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/KAWASAKI%20PISTONS/PT.90KX250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/KAWASAKI%20PISTONS/PT.92KX250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/KAWASAKI%20PISTONS/PT.05KX250.htm

KTM250 and 300
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/OTHER%20PISTONS/PT.05KTM250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/OTHER%20PISTONS/91.6394.htm

Husky 250
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/HONDA%20PISTONS/PT.97CR250.htm

Honda Cr250
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/HONDA%20PISTONS/PT.05CR250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/HONDA%20PISTONS/PT.02CR250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/HONDA%20PISTONS/PT.97CR250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/HONDA%20PISTONS/PT.86CR250.htm

mr bucketracer
9th October 2015, 19:18
frits see what youve done. guys put their life on hold waiting by the computer for the day you spill the beans. tell them it could be years before you talk :laugh:we will never see them in cars unless we want to spend are life boring and replacing pistons lol so a wast of time (-: bugger why am i buliding a 2 stroke:psst:

SwePatrick
9th October 2015, 20:16
It can't. But you may want to reread my post. And if that doesn't help, then take a look here: http://www.pit-lane.biz/t1461p32-technique-moteurs-motogp

Still can´t make it work inside my head.
It´s like heating up the stove, shut down the heater and the stove still gets even hotter.

Or accelerate a car, shut down engine and car still accelerates.

You wrote:

After the piston has reached its maximum velocity, the conrod has to slow it down again. Now the piston is pushing against the conrod and positive energy is delivered to the crankshaft.

Still, there´s no pressure left to push the piston after ~half the stroke(fastest pistonspeed) as the exhaust has been open for a while.
All this consumes so much energy so i would figure the powercurve is heading down even more steep than vertical.

speedpro
9th October 2015, 21:30
The piston may not have rings as blowby may not be such a problem as combustion products may be used to promote the type of ignition of the mixture of the following cycle. So a little gas leaking past the piston and mixing with fresh mixture beneath the piston is actually desirable.

Frits replied to a question of mine some pages back and said something along the lines that the faster the combustion the better. HCCI is quicker than "normal" combustion of course. I was asking about combustion rates and piston speed. Interestingly the Ryger may have fast combustion, close to TDC, and has a short rod which will see the piston move away from TDC quickly. This may be required to extract useful work from the very rapidly raised cylinder pressure. I've thought of another method but if a short rod is all that is needed to obtain the change in piston velocity needed then may as well keep it a bit simpler.
Without the piston thrust face loads caused by having the short rod directly connected to the piston the lubrication requirements could be reduced significantly. With the shorter rod plus the spacer plate there is plenty of room for guide mechanism for the rod attached to the piston. This mechanism is what would take the loads caused by the angle between the rod attached to the piston and the 90mm conrod. These loads could be quite high given the rod angularity and the horsepower being obtained. My thought regarding that is that there could be a connecting link(A) at more or less 90deg to the piston rod but connected to the crankshaft conrod, with a short link(B) between their junction and the bottom of the piston conrod. This connecting link(A) at 90deg would be connected to the crankcase at the end opposite to the crankshaft 90mm conrod. The junction of the 90mm conrod and the connecting link(A) would therefore only move in and arc dependant on the length of the connecting link(A) as the crankshaft rotated. This would reduce the side loads on the rod connected to the piston.

I'm gonna draw a picture.

The word "may" is used quite a bit.

polinizei
9th October 2015, 23:11
It seems to me, the gudgeon needs to be below the transfer ports even at TDC and a piston ring for sealing.
Is that to prevent an air leak from the gudgeon to the pumping crankcase?
That arrangement could be done with a short rod and a cylinder spacer, we can already see in the revo.

Frits Overmars
9th October 2015, 23:33
Frits, I have a particular cylinder reed valve engine that I will want to convert to a Ryger engine when the time comes. I am sitting here with new 0.040" over pistons and some cylinders with cast iron liners that need to be bored and honed for the pistons. In the interest of saving time and effort, should I go ahead and have the cylinders bored and honed now then wait on the Ryger specifics to come out or should I just wait for the Ryger info and relevant machining before having the boring/honing done.When the time comes, you will need Ryger-type pistons anyway so it may be best to wait until then and see if pistons in approximately your size become available.


frits see what youve done. guys put their life on hold waiting by the computer for the day you spill the beans. tell them it could be years before you talk.
My thoughts exactly, people should pull finger and get out in the shed and make something.Right you are Teezee. Putting your life on hold is like throwing it away. I love the way people like Flettner are taking matters into their own hands.
A german friend of mine also started building something he thought might be Ryger-like. He will be the first to admit it looked rather 'experimental' but after I showed Harry Ryger pictures and a video of his contraption for a good laugh, Harry invited him over for a look at the real Ryger internals :yes:.
316452 316453 316454 316455

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1TBjG9vqQY&ab_channel=UweHartmann

Harrys first reaction: "Man, does it smoke!"

Frits Overmars
9th October 2015, 23:40
Without the piston thrust face loads caused by having the short rod directly connected to the piston the lubrication requirements could be reduced significantly. With the shorter rod plus the spacer plate there is plenty of room for guide mechanism for the rod attached to the piston. This mechanism is what would take the loads caused by the angle between the rod attached to the piston and the 90mm conrod. These loads could be quite high given the rod angularity and the horsepower being obtained. My thought regarding that is that there could be a connecting link(A) at more or less 90deg to the piston rod but connected to the crankshaft conrod, with a short link(B) between their junction and the bottom of the piston conrod. This connecting link(A) at 90deg would be connected to the crankcase at the end opposite to the crankshaft 90mm conrod. The junction of the 90mm conrod and the connecting link(A) would therefore only move in and arc dependant on the length of the connecting link(A) as the crankshaft rotated. This would reduce the side loads on the rod connected to the piston.

The word "may" is used quite a bit.Sounds a lot like what Flettner is building, if I may say so.

MotleyCrue
9th October 2015, 23:48
When the time comes, you will need Ryger-type pistons anyway so it may be best to wait until then and see if pistons in approximately your size become available.



Regular cylinders/pistons for this engine are cheap so I might as well just carry on and then redo it later when the Ryger info becomes available. If it was just a matter of waiting a few months I would leave it, its not a critical project and I've got many other things to do on the "List", but I have a feeling it could be a lot longer wait than a few months.

Frits Overmars
10th October 2015, 00:01
... I have a feeling it could be a lot longer wait than a few months.I haven't got a clue. It's a legal matter and I don't understand the first thing about it; don't even wish to.

ZdenekK
10th October 2015, 07:30
Vítejte ZdenekK.
Shortening the underside of the piston so that the exhaust duct and the volume under the piston are connected when the piston is at Top Dead Center, has indeed been done before. But at TDC the pressure in the exhaust duct is lower than the pressure under the piston, so there will not be any boosting.

That would require that this under-piston connection opens right after exhaust port closure. It would be open during maybe 140°; any pressure-rise would have leaked out again by the time the transfers open. It would also mess up the induction phase: instead of inhaling through the carburettor, the engine would inhale exhaust gas...

Dank u wel Frits voor your response. Though that mean my thoughts were wrong, at least some of them.

Let me bother you with few more questions, maybe you can answer them.
Looking down the bore of Ryger, are all 11 transfer ports visible with piston at Bottom Dead Center?
What's the intake reed valve doing at 30kRPM, still open?

2005bully
10th October 2015, 07:39
Frits... It is beyond me how you have endured all these endless questions on the subject. I realize at this stage my question may be hypothetical, but for the long term validity of 2 strokes, it seems more valid than speculation on the Ryger concept. (I have decided to take your word that the Ryger does work even if I don't understand how.) :(


If the Ryger technology is applied to more utilitarian applications. Like ones over a wide range of displacements in a lower states of tune,, Or in other words applications where the benefits of high rpm power are overshadowed by the importance of reduced emissions and reliability. Lawn mowers, weed eaters, chainsaws, etc etc.... In these applications what percentage of reduced emissions and power increase is expected to be retained?

Asked with respect to your patience...... Kermit Buller

Flettner
10th October 2015, 07:52
frits see what youve done. guys put their life on hold waiting by the computer for the day you spill the beans. tell them it could be years before you talk :laugh:

If nothing else Harry has made us all think, not just follow other peoples twostroke fashions.

WilDun
10th October 2015, 08:32
If nothing else Harry has made us all think, not just follow other peoples twostroke fashions.

Thinking is one thing, deciding which thoughts are worth trying is another thing, and doing? - well,a few actually do try, but their efforts are often relegated to the scrap heap by yet another bright spark who has come up with something apparently better! (grass on the other side is always greener).
They say it's best to "see it through" but in this case, thoughts are flying everywhere at high speed and if you don't keep up with the changes then your chances of beating Harry Ryger by producing a Ryger lookalike first, you'll come a very poor :second:

Me? - forget it!

Flettner
10th October 2015, 08:41
Thinking is one thing, deciding which thoughts are worth trying is another thing, and doing? - well,a few actually do try, but their efforts are often relegated to the scrap heap by yet another bright spark who has come up with something apparently better! (grass on the other side is always greener).
They say it's best to "see it through" but in this case, thoughts are flying everywhere at high speed and if you don't keep up with the changes then your chances of beating Harry Ryger by producing a Ryger lookalike first, you'll come a very poor :second:

Me? - forget it!

First is over rated anyway

TZ350
10th October 2015, 08:44
If nothing else Harry has made us all think, not just follow other peoples twostroke fashions.

Yes, absolutely ...


It's not a critical project and I've got many other things to do on the "List", but I have a feeling it could be a lot longer wait than a few months.

This is a show and tell thread, and all about sharing, we would love to see some photos and posts of what your up too, sounds very interesting.

wobbly
10th October 2015, 09:13
Be careful interpreting any conclusions you may derive from Frits graphical analysis of resultant conrod forces,
as his peak cylinder pressure value for some reason has a large error factor in it.
Using numbers gained from actual analysis of an RSW for a PhD thesis and the values shown for an RSA modeled in EngMod
the peak cylinder pressure value gives a large resultant area well above the X axis - making allot of the logic around the accelerating
forces on the crankpin in error as well.

JanBros
10th October 2015, 09:37
First is over rated anyway

I had read "Frits is over rated" and thought WTF :laugh:

husaberg
10th October 2015, 10:01
Be careful interpreting any conclusions you may derive from Frits graphical analysis of resultant conrod forces,
as his peak cylinder pressure value for some reason has a large error factor in it.
Using numbers gained from actual analysis of an RSW for a PhD thesis and the values shown for an RSA modeled in EngMod
the peak cylinder pressure value gives a large resultant area well above the X axis - making allot of the logic around the accelerating
forces on the crankpin in error as well.

Can you post more correct data?

WilDun
10th October 2015, 10:24
First is over rated anyway

Flettner,
I need to point out (even though I quoted your post) that my comments were directed at the whole Ryger "saga" and not at you personally, :facepalm:

Frits Overmars
10th October 2015, 10:33
Looking down the bore of Ryger, are all 11 transfer ports visible with piston at Bottom Dead Center?
This should answer your question ZdenekK: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130908092#post1130908092


Frits... It is beyond me how you have endured all these endless questions on the subject.It amazes me too Kermit. But it's fun. If I were to give an explanation, it would probably be that I am excited about these new developments which I want to share as much as possible (which is not yet as much as I would like), and that I enjoy the flood of ludicrous wonderful ideas that are being put forward on this forum.


If the Ryger technology is applied to more utilitarian applications. Like ones over a wide range of displacements in a lower states of tune,, Or in other words applications where the benefits of high rpm power are overshadowed by the importance of reduced emissions and reliability. Lawn mowers, weed eaters, chainsaws, etc etc.... In these applications what percentage of reduced emissions and power increase is expected to be retained?I think we will be able to control the power quite well; we don't want to turn lawn mowers into dragsters. But I can't give you any percentages for reduced emissions;
many aspects of the Ryger system must still be researched.

F5 Dave
10th October 2015, 12:19
So that's actually the bottom of the barrel;)

Transferring into the head as well. Nah we believe that is conventional.

peewee
10th October 2015, 16:58
Fellers,
Just thought I’d get my mind clear on the Ryger features that we know of:

• 90 rod with the standard VM bore and stroke
• Same crankshaft & cylinder head
• Reed valve appears to be positioned as in pics, essentially shifting this from the standard KZ crankcase position to the cylinder in a position similar to Rotax/Aprilia cylinders
• Wet bottom end
• Ř30 carb is fed with straight fuel
• 20 mm spacer plate under cylinder
• Slightly modified (internally) cylinder, sort of implying at least the A & B ports (from the outside) and presumably C ports are utilized.
• Single exh port
• Plain piston skirt visible thru exh port
• 11 transfers passages are indicated. Assuming the standard transfers are utilized, this means another 6 passages are added
• An engine can be converted in one day, sort of indicating that, with the addition of certain key components and there wouldn’t be casting changes required
• The system can be applied to crankcase scavenged engines, reed or rotary valve, not sure about piston port. Whether this means that the existing inlet system is retained or blanked off and replaced with the cylinder reed is unclear.
• Can be applied to four stroke engines in terms of mechanical and thermodynamic aspects, but not gas dynamics

Anything missing or wrong?

Frits, any more titbits to add?


if we assume its based on HCCi then doesnt that suggest spent exh gas is intentionally routed back to the combustion chamber each cycle ? maybe add that to your list. the other thing is the piston rings. from what i recall frits only said they dont touch the piston or maybe it was they dont touch the cylinder. maybe there is no rings. i posted the link for a ringless 2t and it didnt seem overly complicated. this would fit with frits statment about keeping it simple. no rings-less friction-30k rpm no problem ?

Frits Overmars
10th October 2015, 17:15
maybe there is no rings.
316488
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Flettner
10th October 2015, 19:50
I think we will be able to control the power quite well; we don't want to turn lawn mowers into dragsters. But I can't give you any percentages for reduced emissions;
many aspects of the Ryger system must still be researched.

Frits, wouldn't you have thought that Harry might have researched what he had a little more before he went this far? I would imagine he is hard at work sorting through the emission (combustion) side of things right now, It's a fairly important aspect isn't it?

WilDun
10th October 2015, 21:24
Frits, wouldn't you have thought that Harry might have researched what he had a little more before he went this far? I would imagine he is hard at work sorting through the emission (combustion) side of things right now, It's a fairly important aspect isn't it?

I bet Harry is a mythical character and the "Ryger" is really just a cunning plan to design and build a super engine by systematically picking the brains of all the bright guys on this forum! :msn-wink:

yesyes
10th October 2015, 22:34
I bet Harry is a mythical character and the "Ryger" is really just a cunning plan to design and build a super engine by systematically picking the brains of all the bright guys on this forum! :msn-wink:

:killingme

Frits Overmars
11th October 2015, 00:28
Frits, wouldn't you have thought that Harry might have researched what he had a little more before he went this far? I would imagine he is hard at work sorting through the emission (combustion) side of things right now, It's a fairly important aspect isn't it?It certainly is an important aspect Neil, but Harrys workshop is not exactly a high-tech R & D center, which makes his achievements all the more admirable.
Too bad you don't live around the corner; I'd have loved to take you there. Then you could discover why Harrys engines don't smoke: he does all the smoking himself .

JanBros
11th October 2015, 00:40
Too bad you don't live around the corner; I would have loved to take you there.

I can see the corner and would love to come and visit :whistle: http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/frech/r025.gif

Frits Overmars
11th October 2015, 00:47
So where do you live Jan?

Peiter
11th October 2015, 01:28
I can see the corner and would love to come and visit :whistle: http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/frech/r025.gif

Second that, I guess I'm even closer 😜

Frits Overmars
11th October 2015, 03:18
Second that, I guess I'm even closer 😜You must be living on his doorstep then.

adegnes
11th October 2015, 03:42
I'm his sister.

Peiter
11th October 2015, 04:59
You must be living on his doorstep then.

Well, Zaltbommel is closer than Belgium, by corner I thought Janbros meant that corner of the Netherlands :).

A question regarding the Ryger (I'm not certain if it had been asked before, excuse me if so):
If I recall it correctly, mr. Ryger his primary goal was initially to make a clean 2 stroke cycle by separating top and bottom from each other. May I assume that he didn't care about efficiency at first then, but purely tried to remove the oil from the mixture? The increased efficiency then came as surprise with the power increase?

Given that logic, I assume he started by adding the spacer with a seal and a stepped piston, to have some pumping action.

JanBros
11th October 2015, 05:06
So where do you live Jan?

I'm one of your very friendly neighours from Belgium :drinknsin

only +/- 3h away.

TZ350
11th October 2015, 06:32
Awesome free tech 50 out of europe

316493


Weren't you thinking along the same lines, TeeZee? Here are some more pictures of the bike; I'm anxious to see it find its way between the six-speed Freetech bikes.

315529315530315531315532315533315534

Any news on how the CVT FreeTec went?

breezy
11th October 2015, 07:01
:killingme

ryger... Danish for "smoker"

breezy
11th October 2015, 07:03
I bet Harry is a mythical character and the "Ryger" is really just a cunning plan to design and build a super engine by systematically picking the brains of all the bright guys on this forum! :msn-wink:

well im happy to let anyone use my "ROTARY RODENT" idea...;)

Flettner
11th October 2015, 07:27
It certainly is an important aspect Neil, but Harrys workshop is not exactly a high-tech R & D center, which makes his achievements all the more admirable.
Too bad you don't live around the corner; I'd have loved to take you there. Then you could discover why Harrys engines don't smoke: he does all the smoking himself .

Peter Pan and Tinkerbell would love to come to the Never Netherlands, if nothing else but to see what Captain Hook smokes:lol:
Be careful what you offer, the Netherlands are just a flight away.

breezy
11th October 2015, 07:53
how about some kind of fluid damping within a link between conrod and piston taking all the major combustion hammering and smoothing it out.?

316494


old variable conrod idea

Grumph
11th October 2015, 08:10
Peter Pan and Tinkerbell would love to come to the Never Netherlands, if nothing else but to see what Captain Hook smokes:lol:
Be careful what you offer, the Netherlands are just a flight away.

Bloody long flight in one of your Gyros though....What do they cruise at ? 85 - 90 knots ?

Frits Overmars
11th October 2015, 11:35
If I recall it correctly, mr. Ryger his primary goal was initially to make a clean 2 stroke cycle by separating top and bottom from each other. May I assume that he didn't care about efficiency at first then, but purely tried to remove the oil from the mixture? The increased efficiency then came as surprise with the power increase?His primary goal was indeed to remove the oil from the mixture. The power and the efficiency came as a pleasant surprise.

mr bucketracer
11th October 2015, 13:19
His primary goal was indeed to remove the oil from the mixture. The power and the efficiency came as a pleasant surprise.direct injection , 4 stroke bottom end dry sump on plain bearing if it revs like they speak of , exhaurt the same , air pulled though like a 4 stroke but through reads, that bit i need to think more of ,

seattle smitty
11th October 2015, 17:36
Post #19963, photos, two pages back;

Again, Ken's list still only says "spacer-plate" while, somewhere back a ways, Frits said something close to "spacer/valve plate." Look at the photos. Looks to me as though there are two big "transfer" (?) passages that are fed from that plate, maybe, . . . so what's the deal with those???? Or is that only a big water jacket around the exhaust area, and not transfers at all??? (Laugh all you want, Frits, I'm anonymous here, nyah, nyah).

(EDIT) "Direct injection"?? Racer, I thought he said the engine has a carburetor, mandated by the kart rules, Yes? No?

TZ350
11th October 2015, 19:48
Well that was Mt Wellington today.

As I remember it, A grade finishing order was:-

Prelim:- 2T 2T 4T 2T 2T 2T 4T all the rest 4T's

Race 1- 2T 2T 2T 2T 2T 4T 2T all the rest 4T's

Race 2- 2T 2T 2T 2T 2T 4T 2T all the rest 4T's

Its starting to look like, that unless your peddling a well developed 2T you are going to struggle to run at the front of F4 A grade.

And from Dave D

Hi there,
The results of the 4th round of the 15/16 season of AMCC bucket racing from Sunday are attached, for publication in the club newsletter.
Tim has already updated the website & Mylaps.

316524

2 new lap records were set yesterday:
28.811 for Dave Manuell for F4 A grade clockwise
33.805 for Max Olsen for Sidecar clockwise

Regards,
David Diprose


Hi all,

The results of round 4 are now on Mylaps. You can see the full results here: http://www.mylaps.com/en/events/1214128

Congratulations to Nathanael Diprose who won both F4 races, but also congratulations to Dave Manuel who lowered his own clockwise F4 lap record to 28.811 seconds while chasing Nathanael. This was just over a tenth of a second faster than his previous lap record in the clockwise direction and only five thousandths of a second slower than Aaron Hassan's anti-clockwise record! Also congratulations to Max Olsen and Wil Killip who have taken the clockwise sidecar lap record from Rick Ford and Henk Zeeven. Max and Wil are the first sidecar combination to dip into the 33 second bracket with a 33.805.

You can see the current championship standings by clicking on the following links:

F4: http://organisation.mylaps.com/championship/view.jsp?id=45999
B-Grade: http://organisation.mylaps.com/championship/view.jsp?id=45997
C-Grade: http://organisation.mylaps.com/championship/view.jsp?id=45998
F5: http://organisation.mylaps.com/championship/view.jsp?id=46000
Sidecars: http://organisation.mylaps.com/championship/view.jsp?id=46001

Tim

TZ350
11th October 2015, 20:26
Links within the link below to the back story.


Spent a happy afternoon checking out the balance of the new 48mm stroke NSR GP110 crank and the NSR cylinder port STA's with the 48mm crank.

Many thanks to Kickaha for the GN clutch.

316505

Honda copy Monkey Bike primary gears are straight cuts which have the same C/C distance as the GP.

GN Clutch on the left and GP one on the right. Previously I had managed to squeeze an extra plate into the GP one. The original GP 6 plate clutch would slip under power, modifying it for 7 plates cured the slip.

316506

The big gear is smaller than the original GN125 and GP125 helical gears.

316507

Once the straight cut gear is fitted to the GN clutch it will spin faster, transmits the same power but the plates are subjected to less torque and the need for cramming in an extra plate to stop clutch slip.

The new GP/NSR110 is going to have straight cut primary gears and conventional clutch springs.

husaberg
11th October 2015, 21:16
Once the straight cut gear is fitted to the GN clutch it will spin faster, transmits the same power but the plates are subjected to less torque and the need for cramming in an extra plate to stop clutch slip.

The new GP/NSR110 is going to have straight cut primary gears and conventional clutch springs.

It will be transmiting more power as it will be losing a few % less from the former side thrust of the helical gears it will also be easier on the bearings WIN WIN

ken seeber
11th October 2015, 22:28
EVERYTHING SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN DONE BEFORE.

At the Bathurst motor museum, there is a neat collection of bikes, inc some 125 classics. One being a 1950 BSA Bantam racer. With a touch of early Oz ingenuity (pre Fletto stuff), this featured a 24/7 inlet in conjunction with the original piston port inlet. Also featured an exhaust system designed with the help of an early version of FOS exhaust software:

316510316511316512316513

As an added bonus, they also had a bucket for you bucketeers:

316514

Frits Overmars
12th October 2015, 00:37
316515
3 x 3 = 6 ...:whistle:
I learn new things here every day.

breezy
12th October 2015, 00:49
EVERYTHING SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN DONE BEFORE.

At the Bathurst motor museum, there is a neat collection of bikes, inc some 125 classics. One being a 1950 BSA Bantam racer. With a touch of early Oz ingenuity (pre Fletto stuff), this featured a 24/7 inlet in conjunction with the original piston port inlet. Also featured an exhaust system designed with the help of an early version of FOS exhaust software:

316510316511316512316513

As an added bonus, they also had a bucket for you bucketeers:

316514

good pictures Ken... hope you dont mind me posting pictures on bantam racing forum.

philou
12th October 2015, 04:13
Ryger http://www.globalarmenianheritage-adic.fr/iconographie/smiley_interrogatif.JPG

http://www.pit-lane.biz/t5235-2-stroke-fast-by-tim-hickox

breezy
12th October 2015, 06:42
Ryger http://www.globalarmenianheritage-adic.fr/iconographie/smiley_interrogatif.JPG

http://www.pit-lane.biz/t5235-2-stroke-fast-by-tim-hickox

just the crank set up then...:sherlock:

Flettner
12th October 2015, 07:47
Frits, some answers if you will. What happens with the ryger engine at part throttle in high reves, how does it respond?
This BMEP thing, apparent 207 psi at 17500 rpm (my calculation) how much of that figure is actual BMEP and how much is this figure influenced by the frctionlessness of the mechanical set up? In other words because the engine is so free running ( no rings touching the piston, no piston touching the bore ) the actual cylinder pressure might be quite low or at least lower than we think. Yes.

WilDun
12th October 2015, 08:01
3 x 3 = 6 ...:whistle:
I learn new things here every day.

Frits,
Even people who label stuff in museums can sometimes be wrong, at least in this case it isn't exaggerated! :msn-wink:
In my experience, as far as racing was concerned, the Bantam in most cases had a first gear which was suitable only for the paddock anyway. so 3 X 3 = 6 is reasonably correct here! (give or take a little).

BTW, I reckon the early Kreidler racers blatantly copied this machine's transmission system (by using 2 gearboxes!)

:laugh:

ken seeber
12th October 2015, 08:10
3 x 3 = 6 ...:whistle:
I learn new things here every day.

Frits, good spotting. Probably cos we didn't have calculators in those days. :facepalm:

We'll say we saw that, but figured that they might have used only two of the ratios in one of the boxes.

Breezy,

Anything here is good to go. Found another couple:

316521316522

breezy
12th October 2015, 08:25
Frits, good spotting. Probably cos we didn't have calculators in those days. :facepalm:

We'll say we saw that, but figured that they might have used only two of the ratios in one of the boxes.

Breezy,

Anything here is good to go. Found another couple:

316521316522

thanks:woohoo::drinknsin

Frits Overmars
12th October 2015, 08:34
What happens with the ryger engine at part throttle in high revs, how does it respond?I can't say with sufficient authority yet; I need more track experience.


This BMEP thing, apparent 207 psi at 17500 rpm (my calculation) how much of that figure is actual BMEP and how much is this figure influenced by the frctionlessness of the mechanical set up? In other words because the engine is so free running the actual cylinder pressure might be quite low or at least lower than we think.Neil, I don't wanna know what a psi is (short for psychiatrist maybe?) but you are undoubtedly right in assuming that the difference between Indicated Mean Effective Pressure and Brake Mean Effective Pressure is smaller in the Ryger engine than in a conventional two-stroke.
The Ryger and the Aprilia RSA have about the same BMEP; we haven't yet measured the Ryger-IMEP yet; it may be a little bit lower than the RSA-IMEP.


reckon the early Kreidler racers blatantly copied this machine's transmission system (by using 2 gearboxes!)Maybe; Kreidler used their 4-foot x 3-hand transmission from 1962 or '63. I couldn't find a date for mr. Morris' double-box Bantam.
316523

Flettner
12th October 2015, 08:44
Frits, how is the Kart racing, have they sold you one yet:laugh:

WilDun
12th October 2015, 08:57
[QUOTE=Frits Overmars;1130910970].

Maybe; Kreidler used their 4-foot x 3-hand transmission from 1962 or '63. I couldn't find a date for mr. Morris' double-box Bantam.
QUOTE]

Most probably in the late fifties (I dunno), but people were starting to get interested in disc valves around then, assuming of course that the carb sticking out the side was used with a disc valve.
Might have been a dummy just to impress! :msn-wink:

Leed
12th October 2015, 09:20
https://mccovers.blob.core.windows.net/covers/106670/mid/0025.jpg

"The Dutch engine Ryger Revo 125 comes from the development of an idea of Frits Overmars a dozen years ago - the
first on the left in the photo."
...having to rely on google to translate maybe a 12 year development of an idea
If the engine makes use of one of YOUR ideas - please reiterate that idea (your own Intellectual Property), thank you Frits

http://www.vroomkart.it/sites/vroomkart.com/files/www.vroomkart.it/Motore%20Ryger-1.jpg

Wankel/rotaries are high output , compact but not particularly light engines...
what limited their market success, was fuel consumption...

IF the Ryger uses more fuel than the same output from a 'conventional' motor, then I see no point - not even in competition

you can get to 30,000 ft in a plane or a rocket.
if its not a more efficient motor, theres no need for patents
you may make one facet of motorsport somewhat more environmentally friendly, but is that just a pimple to the pollution of NHRA/Indy/Nascar etc

husaberg
12th October 2015, 10:08
I can't say with sufficient authority yet; I need more track experience.

Neil, I don't wanna know what a psi is (short for psychiatrist maybe?) but you are undoubtedly right in assuming that the difference between Indicated Mean Effective Pressure and Brake Mean Effective Pressure is smaller in the Ryger engine than in a conventional two-stroke.
The Ryger and the Aprilia RSA have about the same BMEP; we haven't yet measured the Ryger-IMEP yet; it may be a little bit lower than the RSA-IMEP.

Maybe; Kreidler used their 4-foot x 3-hand transmission from 1962 or '63. I couldn't find a date for mr. Morris' double-box Bantam.

207PSI =14.27 Bar

This one Brian Woolley did in the 60's had a small overdrive box on the rear axel giving the four speed Yamaha 8 ratios.
http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/yamaha.html

its a Go-matic
316532

http://hondatrailcts.yuku.com/reply/38349#.VhtSjcuheUk
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/BIQ/GoMatic002.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/BIQ/GoMatic003.jpghttp://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/redlabelmoto/RLM%202/IMG_0681.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/BIQ/GoMatic016.jpg
http://chalopy.blogspot.co.nz/2009/12/go-matic.html