ESE's works engine tuner

[WilDun]

I actually remember that one but forgot about the gearing system! Quite clever I reckon when there was nothing commercially available in anything over four speed, at least not in that size anyway.
I actually have that photo of him with the bike, in an old scrapbook somewhere.

I think that there was a 6 speed Schafleitner box avaliable for the Manx Norton etc. (maybe 1961?)

[peewee]

http://www.vroomkart.it/sites/vroomkart.com/files/www.vroomkart.it/Motore%20Ryger-1.jpg




did the cylinder have a reed valve inlet welded on ? thats what it looks like anyways. the rear ears where the cylinder studs are look taller also

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, how is the Kart racing, have they sold you one yet? :laugh:Sold? As in me paying money? Nah. They are preparing one for me.
I already have the distinction of being the oldest man that ever drove a Ryger kart. Now they want me to return to racing :facepalm:.


"The Dutch engine Ryger Revo 125 comes from the development of an idea of Frits Overmars a dozen years ago."That's what the Italian article says, but it's not correct. The engine was Harry Ryger's idea.


IF the Ryger uses more fuel than the same output from a 'conventional' motor, then I see no point.. You may have some more reading to do, Leed. It has repeatedly been stated that the Ryger engine is stronger, cleaner and more efficient than a conventional two-stroke. It uses less fuel per HP and it only needs a small radiator.

[Lightbulb]

More gold from Frits to add to the reubix cube.
Neil

[Flettner]

Sold? As in me paying money? Nah.
They are preparing one for me. I already have the distinction of being the oldest man that ever drove a Ryger kart. Now they want me to return to racing :facepalm:.

That's what the Italian article says, but it's not correct. The engine was Harry Ryger's idea.

I think you will have some more reading to do, Leed. It has repeatedly been stated that the Ryger engine is stronger, cleaner and more efficient.
It uses less fuel per HP and it only needs a small radiator.

Smaller radiator? So the extra power is arriving from less energy being pushed into the head and cylinder and other parts. Is there less or more heat in the exhaust at 70 HP? You know Frits if I didn't know better I would still maintain there is some trickery in the crank shaft. Being able to extract more energy from the combustion, less wasted out the exhaust. But I know better than that because you said as such. I still maintain there are several levels of Ryger tech and we are just being allowed to "sniff" the first level. :msn-wink:
I think Harry really needs to quantify what he's got combustion wise, clearly it works but how much better could it be? Perhaps we could help, I know a quiet little cost effective R and D shop out in the middle of nowhere. Time is counting down. :laugh:

[Flettner]

did the cylinder have a reed valve inlet welded on ? thats what it looks like anyways. the rear ears where the cylinder studs are look taller also

Yes it certainly looks that way

[husaberg]

Smaller radiator? So the extra power is arriving from less energy being pushed into the head and cylinder and other parts. Is there less or more heat in the exhaust at 70 HP? You know Frits if I didn't know better I would still maintain there is some trickery in the crank shaft. Being able to extract more energy from the combustion, less wasted out the exhaust. But I know better than that because you said as such. I still maintain there are several levels of Ryger tech and we are just being allowed to "sniff" the first level. :msn-wink:
I think Harry really needs to quantify what he's got combustion wise, clearly it works but how much better could it be? Perhaps we could help, I know a quiet little cost effective R and D shop out in the middle of nowhere. Time is counting down. :laugh:

Lean mixtures are not hotter running
If the mixture is leaned below F/A ratio of 0.067 (stoichiometric mixture) the mixture temperatures and power both decrease. This loss of power as the mixture is leaned, a point is reached where the greatest power per unit of fuel is achieved. This greatest power per unit of fuel (the lowest fuel consumption per horsepower) is named the best economy mixture.

[WilDun]

Lean mixtures are not hotter running
This greatest power per unit of fuel (the lowest fuel consumption per horsepower) is named the best economy mixture.

Does the more efficient combustion (and cooler) mean that the piston (or whatever you'd call it now) doesn't require drastic cooling (from a rich mixture) anymore! (no skirt to seize perhaps?).
Or am I way off track?

[husaberg]

Does the more efficient combustion (and cooler) mean that the piston (or whatever you'd call it now) doesn't require drastic cooling (from a rich mixture) anymore! (no skirt to seize perhaps?).
Or am I way off track?

No idea and can just remember it from Tech years ago I stole most of the words from google. Remember we are talking a minutely percentagewise leaner mixture. highest power out put is achieved at well over .67 ie something like .08 and that runs cooler as well as it is fuel cooled. they is an other figure inbetween that is the max power ecomony, These figures are foul strokes and based on steady speeds
Also Harry might have figured away to turn more of the fuel into actual work rather than into by products such as heat.
One thing though faster burn with less advance results in a cooler running engine.

[Leed]

I dare say efficiency has been used a hundred times in the last 100 pages (which of course is browser and setting dependent - i see 1334 pages) all of which i am not about to read everything.
Each use of Efficiency has been in a different context - pumping effieciency, frictional, emissions, specific horsepower etc etc
Mostly efficiency is thrown into a statement to make a post seem more substantial than it would be

All engines make more power with more air and fuel - in over 100 years this has never changed - this is not more efficient
When you say IT IS Thermodynamically more efficient (more power, less wasted heat), it is something we CAN all be excited about with good reason

A cello has a frequency response that is different to a violin.
Is the Rygers higher operating frequency due to decreased pump volume or speed/harmonics in a hotter gas
or both :baby:
If the piston is thermally insulated (but possibly oil pressure lubricated in one of two scenarios) then it no longer sinks heat energy to the cooling system - so more work is done/extracted to rotation. Without area calculation this probably at least 1/6th to quarter recoverable energy
The side benefit of motor running cooler helps charge stay cooler - 30 years ago people might laugh if you said your car ran at 55-60degC

http://www.rygerengine.com/logo4.png

The logo means something right - TO ME it is a plan view of the piston in cylinder not touching wall cushioned by gas
But it also reminds me of the connecting rodless engine from ?Nelson? abouth 15 years ago that was going to revolutionise the world also
Like too the water powered ones that appear ever 25 years or so (to be headlines for new population/generation)

[Flettner]

Mostly efficiency is thrown into a statement to make a post seem more substantial than it would be

When you say IT IS Thermodynamically more efficient, it is something we CAN all be excited about with good reason


If the piston is thermally insulated (but possibly oil cooled in one of two scenarios) then it no longer sinks heat energy to the cooling system - so more work is done/extracted to rotation



I think Frits IS saying thermodynamiclly more efficient. Be excited.

Oil cooled piston is still sending heat off to a cooling system just not the water cooling system.

What kind of forum users would throw the word efficiency around just for effect?

Interesting thought about the logo though.

[Leed]

I did edit cooling to read lubricated piston while you were posting (if said arrangement had an actual gudgeon)
But it may have roller, perhaps at bottomend with cam(s)

A thermodynamic hermit is smarter than a hermit, right
A thermodynamically efficient hermit has a masters degree i suppose, or pretends to ;)
We,re all grasping straws hoping for some sort points status reward/like when the details come to light
This isnt facebook
Shall we have something real to go on until then

[Lightbulb]

The logo looks to me to symbolize the new style of reed valves in the engine. If he uses 3 sets of reeds, in conjunction with HCCI, there is the key right there. I have seen lean of peak with glow plug engines when we were testing and looking at real time glow plug response in an engine. I think it was Lindberg that was teaching the US fighter and bomber crews how to run their aircraft at the lean of peak. It was the most economical point to be flying the plane. Anyway, hcci is almost spontaneous compared to spark ignition, it happens just so much faster and a more complete burn. With that comes the rapid expansion of the gasses for a very short period of time, a lot shorter than a conventional burn or a diesel burn. The result would be a cooler exhaust, cooler piston temp and a lower head temp. Of course it will require less radiator as less energy is being lost to the engine overall, and more is put into turning the crank around/ creating work. CO is a real killer of combustion, and surprisingly you do not need very much to even kill people with it. So by reducing the remaining amounts of CO in the cylinder or even better, prevent any from getting into the transfer ports as they open, now you have a game change in the cleanliness of the incoming mixture to be burnt. The other part has to be with the reeds making a better fuel fog than what has ever been created before. The other breakthrough has to be that tuned pipes do not work like the books all say. Proof is that the pipe can make max power at 17 k or so and still have an over rev of up to 30k. That alone tells me, that what I thought I knew about pipes from the books is wrong some where.
So now the cats out of the bag s to speak. I still have not solved the 30k rod not failing, but that may be a lot more simple than what my mind can process as well.
Neil

[Frits Overmars]

Smaller radiator? So the extra power is arriving from less energy being pushed into the head and cylinder and other parts.Take a look at the radiator. It would be considered rather small for a regular 125 cc kart, yet it has no problem keeping the Ryger's coolant temperature below 50°C.
Really fast combustion does that for you.
316537


Does the more efficient combustion (and cooler) mean that the piston (or whatever you'd call it now) doesn't require drastic cooling (from a rich mixture) anymore! (no skirt to seize perhaps?). Or am I way off track?You're right in the middle of the road Will. And we still call the piston a piston (but it's like a dog I once had: you could call it whatever you wanted; it wouldn't come).


I dare say efficiency has been used a hundred times in the last 100 pages... all of which i am not about to read everything....
....If the piston is thermally insulated (but possibly oil pressure lubricated in one of two scenarios)...I have repeatedly mentioned before that the piston is not thermally insulated, and that there is no oil pump.
I dare say that up till now I have answered several of your questions to which you could have found the answers yourself. But I'd rather use my time more efficiently.

[MotleyCrue]

In the 4 stroke world there are rumblings that the Ryger engine's fate will be no different than Smokey Yunicks Hot Vapor Engine from the 80s, both having miraculous claims, but either they encounter a serious stumbling block or big money will buy it up and bury it.

I would think part load emissions and part load fuel economy being anywhere near a 4 stroke level would take more than just the ideas I've been reading about on here. Kart racing at largely full throttle operation is different than the operating conditions that an OEM would see their engine at for emissions and economy testing. If the Ryger has some mechanism to physically prevent raw air fuel mixture from going out the exhaust pipe then maybe things look rosier.

The OEM market is more lucrative than the kart market so if the Ryger has to be sorted out for the OEM, before the general unveiling, to get a jump on anyone wanting to steal the technology, then that R&D and the unveiling could be a ways off, in my mind. No point spilling the beans to karting until ALL bases are covered.

[WilDun]

In the 4 stroke world there are rumblings that the Ryger engine's fate will be no different than Smokey Yunicks Hot Vapor Engine from the 80s, both having miraculous claims, but either they encounter a serious stumbling block or big money will buy it up and bury it.


They didn't make any fantastic claims, they simply built a different engine and when it was up and running they slowly introduced it to us. They told us that it developed a certain HP at 17,500 revs (also with good torque) and said that they took it to 30,000 just to see how far it could go. - they also said that there is more development to be done.

I'm sure Harry & co know the 'pro's & cons', and I'm sure they have gone into every detail (being Dutchmen) but they have already taken some huge strides (and some!) in the battle to bring the two stroke back to us.
So credit where credit is due.

Try to forget the big money scenario for now and savour the moment when two stroke technology is just leaving the ground and taking a great leap forward!! (and hope like hell that it lands on its feet!).

:clap:

[Leed]

Quote Originally Posted by WilDun
Does the more efficient combustion (and cooler) mean that the piston (or whatever you'd call it now) doesn't require drastic cooling (from a rich mixture) anymore! (no skirt to seize perhaps?). Or am I way off track?



You're right in the middle of the road Will. And we still call the piston a piston (but it's like a dog I once had: you could call it whatever you wanted; it wouldn't come).


my Ryger only has 2 wheels and uses even LESS petrol
FROM PAGE xxxx :bleh:
https://www.msservice.net/mmMS/Images/N038785_02.jpg

the fate of the combustion engine is an auxillary charging unit for an EV

[WilDun]

the fate of the combustion engine is an auxillary charging unit for an EV

No - definitely not what I was thinking of!
I have seen that one before of course, BMW, Merc (one or the other ) had problems running it even as a pump as I recall. - but then who knows, we can all be wrong!

[ken seeber]

Had a bit of a play with the spreadsheet looking at piston forces vs increasing rpm. Interesting is how the inertia forces dominate as the speed rises. Also interesting is the magnitude increase, either in tension or compression. Note I left the force scale constant so one can more easily compare the forces at each speed.

Clearly Harry has made things light OR stronger OR done something clever OR a combination of these.

316540

[Flettner]

Quote Originally Posted by WilDun
Does the more efficient combustion (and cooler) mean that the piston (or whatever you'd call it now) doesn't require drastic cooling (from a rich mixture) anymore! (no skirt to seize perhaps?). Or am I way off track?



my Ryger only has 2 wheels and uses even LESS petrol
FROM PAGE xxxx :bleh:
https://www.msservice.net/mmMS/Images/N038785_02.jpg

the fate of the combustion engine is an auxillary charging unit for an EV

We covered all this a long way back, might be a good idea to go back to where the Ryger first entered this forum and read from there. Someone will know what page.

[WilDun]

We covered all this a long way back, might be a good idea to go back to where the Ryger first entered this forum and read from there. Someone will know what page.

I believe it was covered in the "oddball" thread.

[2T Institute]

As an added bonus, they also had a bucket for you bucketeers:

316514

made a few bits for that bike(not the pipe though), was one of the 5 or so 20 odd hp H 100's buckets

[Cheesy]

The oil pump thing is a bit of a red herring, the first Husaberg I rode didnt have one and that is a four stroke putting out something in the 60hp region, and in reality is probably no more unreliable than any of the new 450s.

How do needle roller big ends survive at 30k rpm?

[husaberg]

The oil pump thing is a bit of a red herring, the first Husaberg I rode didnt have one and that is a four stroke putting out something in the 60hp region, and in reality is probably no more unreliable than any of the new 450s.

How do needle roller big ends survive at 30k rpm?

Those first Bergs were based on a Husky 500 two stroke bottom end and relied on the cam chain and reed valves and cylinder pressure to splash the lube around.


Roller bearings are for Pussies
These rods have no bearings at all. yes no bearings and yet run a whole season not only that they are 1/2 the weight of a conventional rod and 25 % lighter than titanium
http://www.mxcomposites.com/faq.php
Reading the blub the Husaberg factory even used them for over 100 hours.

This should answer your question ZdenekK: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130908092#post1130908092

It amazes me too Kermit. But it's fun. If I were to give an explanation, it would probably be that I am excited about these new developments which I want to share as much as possible (which is not yet as much as I would like), and that I enjoy the flood of ludicrous wonderful ideas that are being put forward on this forum.



http://i.imgur.com/9JVfxXh.gif

[WilDun]

Clearly Harry has made things light OR stronger OR done something clever OR a combination of these.


Ken, (bit of a long shot, opening myself up to ridicule here! :facepalm:) - we are of course assuming that the number of 'cycles' as opposed to the number of 'strokes' of the piston (ie.one stroke up, one stroke down =1 cycle) will equal the number of revolutions of the crankshaft?
I believe that it is possible to double the piston cycle rate without recourse to rollers, cams etc.

So, question to Frits is :- are we talking crankshaft revolutions or piston cycles (or both) when we say 30,000.?
- just needed to eliminate that one. :rolleyes:

I just said that because 30,000 (which I realise won't be used in practice) would take a very large primary reduction!)

[WilDun]

Ryger inquisition]

Harry's way of saying get the hell out of here Kiwi and stop sniffing around my workshop!

[jasonu]

made a few bits for that bike(not the pipe though), was one of the 5 or so 20 odd hp H 100's buckets

Am I missing something or is this bike really on display somewhere?

[MotleyCrue]

They didn't make any fantastic claims, they simply built a different engine and when it was up and running they slowly introduced it to us. They told us that it developed a certain HP at 17,500 revs (also with good torque) and said that they took it to 30,000 just to see how far it could go.



And none of that is fantastic ???

Let's not confuse "fantastic claims" or "miraculous claims" with being untruthful. Nobody is saying it is untruthful.

Big money will take what big money wants, and by "big money" I dont mean Harry lining his pockets with money, I mean those entities that want what Harry has got and intend to get it one way or another, if the Ryger engine is seen to have the far reaching potential we all hope it does.

[husaberg]

Am I missing something or is this bike really on display somewhere?

its in a museum in Aussie there is a write up on the aussie bucket page, team mad dog or something similar.
http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/collection/database/?irn=350521
http://www.teammaddogracing.com/
gee they bred like rabbits over there
https://nmrm.com.au/racing-in-bathurst/36-museum/our-bikes/97-honda-h100-qbucketq-racer.html

[ken seeber]

Ken, (bit of a long shot, opening myself up to ridicule here! :facepalm:) - we are of course assuming that the number of 'cycles' as opposed to the number of 'strokes' of the piston (ie.one stroke up, one stroke down =1 cycle) will equal the number of revolutions of the crankshaft?
I believe that it is possible to double the piston cycle rate without recourse to rollers, cams etc.


Willy,
The force diagrams were based on a conventional 2 stroke construction. However, if one say used a method such as suggested by a certain Brett S in post #19937, then things would be different. The more I look at the forces and their exponential increases with speed, and this with the short rod and generally well known limited bearing life at 17k levels, then there must be something else going on. Is it just the fact of lots of lube available, some cushioning, double acting combustion or whatever allows it to survive? Dunno.
Frits knows. Frits, how about another info clue or leak? It's been a while. :innocent:

[Lurifax]

Hi,

just like many others I got hooked to this excellent thread, wife thinks I'm having an affair with some old love. My first bike was RD350 so she is partly right.

Unfortunately I have no information just some more questions to show my total lack of knowledge in these piston force calculations.
Does the late ignition made possible by HCCI effect the piston forces? I was thinking that it is the acceleration that is killing the engine in 30 000rpm, if that could be reduced somehow then it could survive. The other possibility is to have stronger/lighter "piston/conrod".

It would be also interesting to calculate backwards that if we had 30 000rpm, what would the other parameters be if the engine was to survive according to our current knowledge.

[WilDun]

And none of that is fantastic ???

Let's not confuse "fantastic claims" or "miraculous claims" with being untruthful. Nobody is saying it is untruthful.

Big money will take what big money wants, and by "big money" I dont mean Harry lining his pockets with money, I mean those entities that want what Harry has got and intend to get it one way or another, if the Ryger engine is seen to have the far reaching potential we all hope it does.


Yes it's a very promising project but there's no fantasy involved, probably all hard graft and a large dose of reality! ........and yes, I understand what you are saying of course and undoubtedly you are correct about "big money" but that's how it always has been.
I live in a small country where a lot of brainpower has been lured and dragged elswhere by "big money" - those big money countries then claim them as their own if they are successful and we are still just little old New Zealand with nothing but sheep and cows (and an obscure flightless bird) for the rest of the world to identify us by!

Holland is a little country too, but being part of Europe, they have access to a huge market for their engineering expertise which they are quite capable of exploiting and doing it directly from home and - they are very capable engineers and businessmen.

Basically I think we are in agreement - more or less. :yes:

[F5 Dave]

made a few bits for that bike(not the pipe though), was one of the 5 or so 20 odd hp H 100's buckets
Yea was confused by that pic. The barrel is MB100 but I thought you only got H100s over there. Perhaps there are H100s that use MB parts in some countries but would need new frames.

Mike has had 30hp from his, mine approaches that. Still more to come but OK for 1978 tech.

[husaberg]

Yea was confused by that pic. The barrel is MB100 but I thought you only got H100s over there. Perhaps there are H100s that use MB parts in some countries but would need new frames.

Mike has had 30hp from his, mine approaches that. Still more to come but OK for 1978 tech.

Yes some countries called what we had as the MB100 was called the H100.
There were three variants in the Hayes manual.
from memory the H100s we got after the Mb100 was left over run for an Asian country BlueWing got hold of and put on the market here hence the lower spec with 4 speed and points ignition.
The Gl145 was the similar sort of deal. (a market run intended for somewhere else)


I looked at that myself A typo as they are different the part numbers and sizes are above.out of my note book along with some old prices interesting to see how much they will have gone up.

To clarify the H100?Mb100 thing.
My take is the MB100 and H100a big fining and CDI are essentially the same bike. The Hayes manual doesn't even mention the MB100.
The S is what NZ knows as the H100 points and straight fining. But yet produced later than the MB100.
That's my take on it.
The H100SII which I have only seen in the Hayes manual had the H100 motor in a frame with down tubes bolted on. It is ugly will post some pics. Whoops it also has CDI I didn't know that.

The MB100 has the 5 speed the electronic ignition racier port timing and different fining its a better starting point due to its bigger fining. IMO
Those Aussie buckets had to run std frames
316546316547316548316549





Ken Asked me to post this spreadsheet after converting the possums to pounds for paddocks or something

Won't work I will fix it later

[karter444]

does anyone know of any piston manufactures that do single ring pistons with the ring locator pin centrally located at the rear of the bore
to suit 250 mx engines
have tried vertex but even their single ring race pistons have offset pin locator to line up with a transfer bridge
cheers

[husaberg]

does anyone know of any piston manufactures that do single ring pistons with the ring locator pin centrally located at the rear of the bore
to suit 250 mx engines
have tried vertex but even their single ring race pistons have offset pin locator to line up with a transfer bridge
cheers

the Site that I will link list the ring locations
http://www.pvlsverige.se/vrm/index/index22.html

I will add to the list later most are rods
but have a look at TKRJ and Prox plus makita can't find the site at the moment or they changed it site for sizes try some of the 250 karts like Rotax
can't remember who used to make the pistons for them? some Austrian company
ELKO
http://www.ebay.com/itm/KTM-250-300-GS-MC-Enduro-MX-Kolben-piston-ELKO-1697-70mm-/371463234800?hash=item567cef24f0&vxp=mtr

have a look at KTM.
Woosner, Wiesco
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/CATALOGUE/PISTON_DIMS_ALL.htm
URL="http://www.mxcomposites.com/con_rod.php"]http://www.mxcomposites.com/con_rod.php[/URL]
http://www.connectingrod.com.tw/ktm.htm
http://www.pro-x.com/downloads/Technical.pdf
http://www.kevinbreedonracing.co.uk/products_conrods.asp
http://www.connectingrod.com.tw/honda.htm
http://www.samarin.nl/webshop/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=32
http://www.tkrj.co.jp/
http://findebookee.com/c/connecting-rod the one is capt
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/399336/Pictures/Posted/HotRod.pdf
http://www.kingrod.com.tw/products.php?func=p_list&pc_parent=22
http://www.crankshaftparts.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=67_93&limit=100
http://shop.atlanticmotoplex.ca/productdetail.htm?productId=10295201&browse=256115&shopBy=13698&catalogId=2016
http://jjmachineryonline.com/snowmobile/crankshaft-rebuild-kits-and-parts/connecting-rods
http://www.scooter-center.com/scoweb...y2=CAT&lang=en
http://www.bansheedepot.com/products.asp?cat=17
http://http://www.samarin.net/?productos (http://www.samarin.net/?productos)
http://www.pvlsverige.se/vrm/index/index22.html[/QUOTE]
http://www.con-rod.com.tw/motorcycle-connecting-rod.htm
http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mingyang-group.2u.com.tw%2Fpdf%2FCAPT-conrod.pdf&ei=iBQJVdibIdXv8gWHmIHoDQ&usg=AFQjCNFf-gNnmOpzO-D1MVppLeMVAqjHUA

[Frits Overmars]

question to Frits is : are we talking crankshaft revolutions or piston cycles (or both) when we say 30,000?Both: crankshaft 30.000 x 360°; piston 30.000 x up, 30.000 x down. Clear enough?

[F5 Dave]

Yes some countries called what we had as the MB100 was called the H100.
There were three variants in the Hayes manual.
from memory the H100s we got after the Mb100 was left over run for an Asian country BlueWing got hold of and put on the market here hence the lower spec with 4 speed and points ignition.
The Gl145 was the similar sort of deal. (a market run intended for somewhere else)



The MB100 has the 5 speed the electronic ignition racier port timing and different fining its a better starting point due to its bigger fining. IMO
Those Aussie buckets had to run std frames






Ken Asked me to post this spreadsheet after converting the possums to pounds for paddocks or something

Won't work I will fix it later

Ahh iI had a H100S. The A seems to have the same barrel as the MB. Honda seems to have given 6 or 5 or 4 speed gearboxes out at random over MB50, H and MB100 depending on market. Keep reading different results in o/s mags.

[husaberg]

Ahh iI had a H100S. The A seems to have the same barrel as the MB. Honda seems to have given 6 or 5 or 4 speed gearboxes out at random over MB50, H and MB100 depending on market. Keep reading different results in o/s mags.

Correct the Poms got the 4 speed I the MB50 restricted most other markets only got the 5. We and I think Aussie and the USA (one year only imported)got the 6 speed.
The four speed is an all up Ag100 style.
The 5 is the exact same ratios as the CB50 and XL100S.
All the Mb100's were 5 and the H100's we got were the 4.

there was also a MB8 which is a MB100 engine debored to 80 with a 5 speed only a few euro countries got those though I think.

The Cr80 aircooled is a lot closer ratios and bolts in although 5-6 is a bigger jump.
pretty sure the Takakawa and similar boxes use late model CR85 gears although there is other custom ultra close gear ones as well. All illegal for Buckets mind you and ubber expensive.

[F5 Dave]

Ahh now that's where you are wrong, the US got 5 speed 50s or at least some were, our MBs were 4, or at least the ones I've taken apart were.
The H100S was 4 but all down. The MT50 was 5.

Anyway I'm done being a trainspotter, none of this seems so funny anymore.

[husaberg]

Ahh now that's where you are wrong, the US got 5 speed 50s or at least some were, our MBs were 4, or at least the ones I've taken apart were.
The H100S was 4 but all down. The MT50 was 5.

Anyway I'm done being a trainspotter, none of this seems so funny anymore.

You are right with the all down, not totally sure with the US but they only got them in 82. MT50 I forgot about but yes all were 5 only ever seen two of them.
They had longer shocks always wanted to try a pair with MB50 springs and a spacer also the frame was slightly different with a conventional tank.
I have definitely seen 5 speed MB100's normal box. Bugger all trains about here at the moment now, no coal to cart.

I had a factory parts manual for the H100S Sold it to (forgot his name) there was bugger all of them and not sure if they was a Fiche for them back iin the day.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/member.php/21379-Hilleye

I also had the 6 speed supplement to the service manual I posted on his thread.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/142498-MB100-development?p=1130185396#post1130185396

[WilDun]

Both: crankshaft 30.000 x 360°; piston 30.000 x up, 30.000 x down. Clear enough?

Yes, all cleared up, just a wild theory, I now can bury that one - thanks. :)

[teriks]

Roller bearings are for Pussies
These rods have no bearings at all. yes no bearings and yet run a whole season not only that they are 1/2 the weight of a conventional rod and 25 % lighter than titanium
http://www.mxcomposites.com/faq.php
Reading the blub the Husaberg factory even used them for over 100 hours.

That's actually really interesting stuff, I wanted to use that stuff in my 6.6cc engines, but unfortunately the cost on those didnt scale well with price.
IE way to expensive for my buget.

[husaberg]

That's actually really interesting stuff, I wanted to use that stuff in my 6.6cc engines, but unfortunately the cost on those didnt scale well with price.
IE way to expensive for my buget.

They need to tool up and that I guess doesn't scale down well.
its creeping in to all sorts of stuff though its been in AP GP callipers since the 90's anyway.
Bloody hard to machine I guess with the ceramic particles.
I think Yamaha and maybe Honda have used it in sleeves.

[F5 Dave]

You are right with the all down, not totally sure with the US but they only got them in 82. MT50 I forgot about but yes all were 5 only ever seen two of them.
They had longer shocks always wanted to try a pair with MB50 springs and a spacer also the frame was slightly different with a conventional tank.
I have definitely seen 5 speed MB100's normal box. Bugger all trains about here at the moment now, no coal to cart.

I had a factory parts manual for the H100S Sold it to (forgot his name) there was bugger all of them and not sure if they was a Fiche for them back iin the day.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/member.php/21379-Hilleye

I also had the 6 speed supplement to the service manual I posted on his thread.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/142498-MB100-development?p=1130185396#post1130185396
Don't remember the MT shocks being any different, I had at least one. I wanted the rear hub and I laced the front onto the girlfriends CG to try get the brakes working better. But I'd ridden one, was it another? Was the first bike I'd ever bought from a shop. Was a wrecker.

[husaberg]

Don't remember the MT shocks being any different, I had at least one. I wanted the rear hub and I laced the front onto the girlfriends CG to try get the brakes working better. But I'd ridden one, was it another? Was the first bike I'd ever bought from a shop. Was a wrecker.

Yeah they were 25mm longer. The MB's had those small shafts and poxy long top mounts so bugger all else would fit other than the MT's.
The MT50 rear wheel or at least the sproket carrier I think was a rare for Honda one off, as it still had the 3 bolt sprocket like the MB5 I think (years ago)
I have a MB5 frame that someone in CHCH modied for an XL or XR motor that would have been an all right get to work machine.
Its mute of course as the RG50 was a better chassis and the RS and GPR frames are better again.
I picked up one of the old MB5 wheels the other day gee they are heavy and skinny

[trevor amos]

Hello Frits,
A guy in the States sent me this a couple of days ago, would you have time to analyse it as to its validity, and perhaps explain to me and others in lay-mans terms what it could mean and is it something to be factored into exhaust pipe calculations. Transferred compression waves is a new expression to me! The quote is as follows; and I should point out that the original author is unknown?

" The pressure ratio of the transferred compression wave,(transferred refers to the wave that is not reflected in the divergent and convergent cones of an expansion chamber), is directly related to the cylinder pressure at the point of exhaust port opening, versus, the pressure in the chamber at exhaust port opening. The transferred pressure ratio is significant as the reflected pressure wave is directly proportional to the transferred pressure ratio at and before the point of refection, at the change in area of the pipe, and the length of the area being considered. And you can chuck in some junk about specific ratio of heats, density, particle velocity, wave super position and of course temperature."

Thanks, Trevor

[Frits Overmars]

Hello Frits,
A guy in the States sent me this a couple of days ago, would you have time to analyse it as to its validity, and perhaps explain to me and others in lay-mans terms what it could mean and is it something to be factored into exhaust pipe calculations. Transferred compression waves is a new expression to me! The quote is as follows; and I should point out that the original author is unknown?
" The pressure ratio of the transferred compression wave,(transferred refers to the wave that is not reflected in the divergent and convergent cones of an expansion chamber), is directly related to the cylinder pressure at the point of exhaust port opening, versus, the pressure in the chamber at exhaust port opening. The transferred pressure ratio is significant as the reflected pressure wave is directly proportional to the transferred pressure ratio at and before the point of refection, at the change in area of the pipe, and the length of the area being considered. And you can chuck in some junk about specific ratio of heats, density, particle velocity, wave super position and of course temperature."
Thanks, TrevorIt seems safe to assume that with 'chamber' the author means the expansion pipe. I also assume that with 'transferred compression wave' he means the superposition wave that starts moving through the exhaust pipe after the wave exiting the cylinder has encountered the returning wave that was reflected by the pipe. If so, then it is something that's already been incorporated in exhaust pipe calculations. But I'm guessing here, and I haven't seen the expression 'transferred compression wave' before. Perhaps Vannik can shed some light on this when he pays us a visit.

[trevor amos]

Thank you for the reply Frits, It`s a relief to know I`m not alone in being in the dark over that expression, I did wonder about superposition but was never confident.
Over to you Neels?

Trevor

[jasonu]

Mike has had 30hp from his, mine approaches that. Still more to come but OK for 1978 tech.

Yes 30hp at 12500rpm and 3hp at 12490rpm...
It was really good at spitting the rider down the track plus IIRC it didn't hold together too well.

[jasonu]

does anyone know of any piston manufactures that do single ring pistons with the ring locator pin centrally located at the rear of the bore
to suit 250 mx engines
have tried vertex but even their single ring race pistons have offset pin locator to line up with a transfer bridge
cheers

Move the pin location to where you want it.

[polinizei]

Have a look at this:
http://www.wossnerpistons.com/products/product-details/id/WOS-8082DA/name/wossner-piston-ktm-sx250-66-4-mm-bore

There is a also a flat top piston and dual ring version with centered pins for ktm mx.

There is 360° view, where you can see the pin position.

[polinizei]

Hey Frits,
what happens if the "airbox" is detached at the ryger engine?

Does this is a serious impact on performance?

[Frits Overmars]

what happens if the "airbox" is detached at the ryger engine? Does this is a serious impact on performance?It's one of the many things we haven't tested yet, and for a good reason: it's compulsory on a kart because first and foremost it is an intake silencer and we don't want to jeopardize our relation with the track owner. Small country; noise rules are strictly upheld over here.

[FastFred]

246711

Tonight Speedpro won the race to be the first documented usefull Bucket engine at 30rwhp



Mike has had 30hp from his, mine approaches that. Still more to come but OK for 1978 tech.
Yes 30hp at 12500rpm and 3hp at 12490rpm... It was really good at spitting the rider down the track plus IIRC it didn't hold together too well.

Not sure when Speedpros 30hp version spat anybody off, if its true, Jason maybe you could quote a post.

316551

There you are 30hp and a good spread of power, a usable 4,500 rpm. Not bad for 70's technology.

[monkeyfumi]

its creeping in to all sorts of stuff though its been in AP GP callipers since the 90's anyway.
.

Nope, not since they went four stroke in GP's anyway (not that anyone runs AP calipers anymore), MMC are banned for calipers (via a limit on youngs modulus).
Even the aluminium/lithium calipers are a thing of the past (cost cutting rules).

One widely known use of MMC was on the brake discs of the first model Lotus Elise, reported to last the lifetime of the car.
They were a great weight saving, but I think they weren't without some issues, and were eventually dropped for traditional cast iron rotors.

[jasonu]

Not sure when Speedpros 30hp version spat anybody off, if its true, Jason maybe you could quote a post.

316551

There you are 30hp and a good spread of power, a usable 4,500 rpm. Not bad for 70's technology.

Pretty sure it hocked Dave Manuell down the road bad enough to screw up his shoulder.
As for the HP, it is one thing to make 30hp and good on those that did it but it is another to make 30hp AND make it reliable AND make it rideable.

[speedpro]

I was thrown down the road pretty good but that was on the 22hp engine and it was all my fault. Pretty sure Dave hasn't been down the road peddling the good motor. It actually did a good number of hours before it expired at Taupo last time out, with Dave on it. He just pulled over when it went off. I'd used it in my FZR and that was what Dave rode and then transferred it to Dave's Aprilia at which point Dave hurt himself but not on that bike, so Gary took to doing some laps on it at meetings. It was pulled prior to Dave being able to ride again. He is currently running my short stroke bottom end with the old 22hp aircooled cylinder. This is the engine he was running in the weekend when he reset his own lap record at Mt Wgtn. The 30hp engine is actually quite nice to ride.

[husaberg]

Nope, not since they went four stroke in GP's anyway (not that anyone runs AP calipers anymore), MMC are banned for calipers (via a limit on youngs modulus).
Even the aluminium/lithium calipers are a thing of the past (cost cutting rules).

One widely known use of MMC was on the brake discs of the first model Lotus Elise, reported to last the lifetime of the car.
They were a great weight saving, but I think they weren't without some issues, and were eventually dropped for traditional cast iron rotors.

Not sure if they are allowed to run AP in Moto GP AP still makes them for similar applications like Superbike
https://www.apracing.com/products/motorcycle/brake_calipers/superbikes_and_moto_gp_machines_4_piston_radial_mo unt_caliper.aspx
They introduced them in the MMC callipers in 93.
https://www.apracing.com/Info.aspx?InfoID=79&ProductID=2541
I assumed all the ceramic brakes were MMC.

[2T Institute]

Yea was confused by that pic. The barrel is MB100 but I thought you only got H100s over there. Perhaps there are H100s that use MB parts in some countries but would need new frames.

Mike has had 30hp from his, mine approaches that. Still more to come but OK for 1978 tech.

We only had 100cc not 125cc, even with 22 or so hp the power drop off from the large amount of cast iron in the cylinder was horrendous, then I learned about taper on the bore which stopped that somewhat. The LH crank main 28/62 bearing was problematic at those levels of power. 18:1 with A747 helped that to but think they lasted 3 meetings or 1 after a GP length track like eastern creek. As always would like to do it all again armed with what I know now

[peewee]

wobbly you still around ? on my next cylinder i figured i would try what tz350 did with the floor dam rather than spend countless hours welding and have to deal with all the distortion afterwards. my plan is a dam with just a few small weld beads to hold it in place. since the dam will be handmade im expecting a less than perfect fit to the floor with the possibility of a small airgap. i wasnt sure how that would affect the pipe or exh gas but i had a idea to put a piece of .035mm copper between the dam bottom and exh floor to act as a heat transfer bridge. what do you think ?

[F5 Dave]

We only had 100cc not 125cc, even with 22 or so hp the power drop off from the large amount of cast iron in the cylinder was horrendous, then I learned about taper on the bore which stopped that somewhat. The LH crank main 28/62 bearing was problematic at those levels of power. 18:1 with A747 helped that to but think they lasted 3 meetings or 1 after a GP length track like eastern creek. As always would like to do it all again armed with what I know now
Yeah we've only 100cc, 125s have carb restrictions.
Never found that bearing to be a problem. Maybe you had case alignment issues?

[husaberg]

Yeah we've only 100cc, 125s have carb restrictions.
Never found that bearing to be a problem. Maybe you had case alignment issues?

Odd pretty sure Mike has had isses with that side, I have too. Only ever that side I note the other side relies on the gearbox oil rather than petrol oil mix? What side to you run the phenolic bearing on Dave?
I always assumed it was the oil supply and the overhanging ignition that caused the issue maybe floating and a C4 would fix it. or a roller or ceramic bearing.

[F5 Dave]

Light YZ internal rotor most of the time probably helped. CR one since then. Think I didn't bother with phenolic after a while, just decent c3.

[speedpro]

Crank floats on that side plus the bearing is a loose fit in the cases and it's C4 clearance. No problem so far with the steel cage type.

Having said that the bearing that failed recently and bits of which took out my nice new Burris piston in Gary's bike was on that side. The cage failed and got smeared. It was probably the original one from Honda.

[F5 Dave]

Soichiro trying to nobble another 2 stroke huh?

[Frits Overmars]

wobbly you still around ? on my next cylinder i figured i would try what tz350 did with the floor dam rather than spend countless hours welding and have to deal with all the distortion afterwards. my plan is a dam with just a few small weld beads to hold it in place. since the dam will be handmade im expecting a less than perfect fit to the floor with the possibility of a small airgap. i wasnt sure how that would affect the pipe or exh gas but i had a idea to put a piece of .035mm copper between the dam bottom and exh floor to act as a heat transfer bridge. what do you think ? A bridge from where to where? From the air gap above the copper to the air gap below the copper? It 's not going to work Peewee. Not even a press or shrink fit will do, as I learned when I removed the sleeve from my air-cooled racer and saw charred oil that had crept between the two. By the way, where do you find 0,035 mm copper? That's damn thin!

[Peter1962]

Frits, can you tell us if Harry is also testing on existing MX engines ? (in MX there is no limit on carburator diameter, and no restriction on the use of a electronic powervalve, programmable ignition or a powerjet) ?

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, can you tell us if Harry is also testing on existing MX engines ? (in MX there is no limit on carburator diameter, and no restriction on the use of a electronic powervalve, programmable ignition or a powerjet) ?Not at the moment.

[peewee]

frits i dont know if it would make any difference but my plan was to weld the dam on all sides, preventing any oil or fuel from entering the airgap where the copper would be placed. then again maybe this copper idea is not even worth bothering with. was just something i thought of the other day. the thin copper is found here https://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?id=129&step=2&top_cat=87&showunits=mm

[Frits Overmars]

..my plan was to weld the dam on all sides, preventing any oil or fuel from entering the airgap.. If you weld the dam on all sides so the air gap below it is completely sealed off, then why not take the opportunity and turn that air gap into a coolant volume?
It would be great to have a raised exhaust duct floor from say 3mm sheet material with water flowing underneath.

[2005bully]

Without luck I have been trying to find the proper forum to ask the following question...

Older YZ250 pistons are commonly used in the Current YZ250s as big bore pistons. Depending on the model the wrist pin height is 2mm to 5mm lower..(which is not a problem for my this aplication) Are there certain models to avoid because of ring pin location, ex bridge holes, miss matched ex skirts, etc etc?????.
Can somebody suggest the proper forum to ask this question?
Thanks Kermit Buller

[peewee]

thnx for the tips frits. i didnt think about having water go through the underside of the dam but it would be easy enough to do. water flows around the exh port now so all i would have to do is make two holes through the floor so the water can pass in and out from underneath.

[peewee]

Without luck I have been trying to find the proper forum to ask the following question...

Older YZ250 pistons are commonly used in the Current YZ250s as big bore pistons. Depending on the model the wrist pin height is 2mm to 5mm lower..(which is not a problem for my this aplication) Are there certain models to avoid because of ring pin location, ex bridge holes, miss matched ex skirts, etc etc?????.
Can somebody suggest the proper forum to ask this question?
Thanks Kermit Buller

if your wanting a standard sized 250 piston with pegs directly in the rear then check out the ktm250. im not sure if any of the other 250 engines used 6' 0clock pegs . you can look at pictures on ebay and get a idea what each piston looks like. you can always have the pegs relocated also

[husaberg]

Without luck I have been trying to find the proper forum to ask the following question...

Older YZ250 pistons are commonly used in the Current YZ250s as big bore pistons. Depending on the model the wrist pin height is 2mm to 5mm lower..(which is not a problem for my this aplication) Are there certain models to avoid because of ring pin location, ex bridge holes, miss matched ex skirts, etc etc?????.
Can somebody suggest the proper forum to ask this question?
Thanks Kermit Buller

PS the Piston maker I couldn't remember the name of that made pistons for Rotax was Elko

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KTM-250-300-GS-MC-Enduro-MX-Kolben-piston-ELKO-1697-70mm-/371463234800?hash=item567cef24f0&vxp=mtr

Some older Huskys and KTM's might suit
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mahle-Standard-Piston-Ring-1987-Huqvarna-250XC-66-44mm-Husky-250-/171967010596?hash=item280a085724&vxp=mtr

This lists a fair bit of information on each years changes
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/CATALOGUE/PISTON_DIMS_ALL.htm

YZ250
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/YAMAHA%20PISTONS/PT.88YZ250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/YAMAHA%20PISTONS/PT.99YZ250.htm

RM250
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/SUZUKI%20PISTONS/PT.87RM250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/SUZUKI%20PISTONS/PT.96RM250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/SUZUKI%20PISTONS/PT.98RM250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/SUZUKI%20PISTONS/PT.99RM250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/SUZUKI%20PISTONS/PT.00RM250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/SUZUKI%20PISTONS/PT.03RM250.htm

KX250
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/KAWASAKI%20PISTONS/PT.87KX250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/KAWASAKI%20PISTONS/PT.90KX250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/KAWASAKI%20PISTONS/PT.92KX250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/KAWASAKI%20PISTONS/PT.05KX250.htm

KTM250 and 300
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/OTHER%20PISTONS/PT.05KTM250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/OTHER%20PISTONS/91.6394.htm

Husky 250
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/HONDA%20PISTONS/PT.97CR250.htm

Honda Cr250
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/HONDA%20PISTONS/PT.05CR250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/HONDA%20PISTONS/PT.02CR250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/HONDA%20PISTONS/PT.97CR250.htm
http://www.mitaka.co.uk/HONDA%20PISTONS/PT.86CR250.htm

[2T Institute]

Yeah we've only 100cc, 125s have carb restrictions.
Never found that bearing to be a problem. Maybe you had case alignment issues?

Everyone had a issue with that bearing, think it was the bearing itself as the rivets/cage would disintergrate with hindsight(and nearly 20yrs of learning) a polymide cage would probably fix that. The finning on the cylinder could never get rid of the heat though, but beat the four strokes until they were allowed 200cc

[MotleyCrue]

you can always have the pegs relocated also


This is something I am looking at having done on a different engine and have no experience with it. Are there any tricks to it, how much of a press fit is needed etc. etc. ?

[peewee]

it may depend on the type of piston used and material of the peg. wiseco told me their pegs are around .003" interference fit if i recall. i think they just use a standard carbon steel.

[F5 Dave]

Everyone had a issue with that bearing, think it was the bearing itself as the rivets/cage would disintergrate with hindsight(and nearly 20yrs of learning) a polymide cage would probably fix that. The finning on the cylinder could never get rid of the heat though, but beat the four strokes until they were allowed 200cc
The old Double the size trick huh? That'll make it nice and unfair.

Was thinking about the MX application of the Ryger, there could be a market to be tapped right there. Get in bed with TM and KTM and watch watch what happens next. Clearly protests, but they are still legal and if emissions reduce then it is harder to argue against them. Maybe. But you wouldn't want to wait too long.

[karter444]

If you weld the dam on all sides so the air gap below it is completely sealed off, then why not take the opportunity and turn that air gap into a coolant volume?
It would be great to have a raised exhaust duct floor from say 3mm sheet material with water flowing underneath.


with water flowing underneath.


to follow on from peewee,s post and ask a few questions that may help both of us with our exhaust post modifications . maybe Frits and Wobbly could comment and head us in the right direction .
My idea was to weld a vertical plate just inside the ex port entry up to a height just below tpo then weld from the base of the plate gradually raising the height of the ex port duct floor to achieve the exhaust duct exit shape as recommended by Wobbly . The reason for the vertical plate was to eliminate a heap of welding they may cause some barrel distortion , also its difficult to get into such a confirmed space to weld
I don't think that the bottom half of the port does much apart from allowing a big radius that gently pushes the ring back in , but the vertical plate may effect the returning mixture by forcing it upwards towards the cyl head as it enters the cyl and may effect the way the pipe works on the transfers , it could possibly be a help , that's something I don't know
If you think that the vertical plate is not a bad idea , would there be a better way to do the transfer ports . as the ports are commonly angled upwards and away from the exhaust to minimise the mixing of the incoming fuel with exhaust and reducing the incoming fuel to enter the exhaust port and as the vertical plate may eliminate this problem there may be some power gains by changing transfer port angles
cheers .


Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. Name: exhaust port 001.jpg Views: 0 Size: 396.8 KB ID: 316578

[Frits Overmars]

if your wanting a standard sized 250 piston with pegs directly in the rear then check out the ktm250. im not sure if any of the other 250 engines used 6' 0clock pegs First time I've seen this 6' Oclock indication for the ring peg position. But it's perfectly logical; I love it and I 'd like to adopt it.
Now I'm just wondering about the correct spelling: 6 Oclock , 6-Oclock , 6 O'clock , any more variations?

[136kg136ps]

0600 1800 Six Oclock....

[Frits Overmars]

0600 1800 Six Oclock....Hmmm... It hasn't the appeal I was hoping for. What would the correct notation be with a combination of the digit 6 and the text 'clock' ?

[jonny quest]

Beer position?

[tjbw]

Hmmm... It hasn't the appeal I was hoping for. What would the correct notation be with a combination of the digit 6 and the text 'clock' ?

Six of the clock = 6 o'clock

[d2t]

Clock ass?
You've hit clock bottom?
Favorite six position?

[TZ350]

Page 1340 ....


Let me start by explaining once more why the ring peg should be at the 6 0'clock position at all.
Each time the piston ring passes over the exhaust port, it bulges outward slightly, after which it is shoved back into its groove.
If the part of the ring to the left of the exhaust port does not have the same length as the part to the right of the port, this shoving will invoke an inclination of the ring to rotate in its groove; one end of the ring will constantly hammer against the ring peg. This may cause a burr on the ring end and/or it may work the peg loose.
The only way to prevent this is to put the peg diametrically opposite the exhaust port.

The C-port can be as wide as 40% of the bore, provided the peg is at the 6 o'clock position, so there is not more than 20% overhang of unsupported ring.
If the peg is off-center, even if the C-port width is not more than 40% of the bore, the ring overhang may become >20% on one side and we should be careful.

The ring will be thankful if you remove the sharp top and bottom edges on all ports. At the exhaust ports you can also apply a radius. But a radius at the transfer port edges has the negative effect that it will facilitate the inflow from spent combustion gases into the transfer ducts, so here we should restrict ourselves to a really small bevel.
Large diameter rings are more prone to problems because their radial depth is usually smaller in relation to their diameter, compared to small diameter rings.


(Insert long sigh here) I hate, I hate to ask this, because I know I've seen the answer somewhere, questions about how to narrow down a KB search.

A thread with info about how to successfully find what you want.


I was thinking this would be a good resource for everyone.

Lets everyone from around the country post up the lap record for there home track and who holds it. Other classes have them we should to.

Bucket Lap Records


I've been trying to collate a full list of NZ GP winners for a little while now.
It would be real cool if we can get a complete list together; so if you can add (or confirm winners, locations, conditions and even bikes) I'll amend the list.

GP Winners

With everyone talking up a storm speculating and guessing about the Ryger.

I thought we should celebrate the real work being done by others.

Useful links to interesting threads.


After reading some of the content in the ESE thread, I've become really inspired to take a closer look at hydroforming chambers.

Designing and manufacturing of exhaust pipes


The foundry or metal casting stuff thats been going on the the ESE thread really inspired me to get on with having a go at this stuff. If you can cast metal theres really not much you cant do. I dont think its going to be easy, most of it has been a bit of 2 steps forward 1 step back so far.

The Bucket Foundry.


Me and Bert will keep you up to date here with our projects
here is my bike i'v started . pic's of the swing arm build coming 264532gpr 100 twin/tf100

Team GPR


After 17 years. #6 is dead. Long live #6.

Speedpros interesting 125 twin turbo build and 30hp MB100.


There seems to be a resurgence in the 50cc ranks so I thought I would post up how I am going about mine (and Johns ).

The 50 ... Cotswold's very successful F5 build.


So I picked up an old Kawasaki KE125 for $55, its an old dual purpose machine supposedly developing 13.5 Hp at 7500 rpm, figured it could be a reasonable platform for a bucket mainly because of the rotary disk valve inlet.

KE125 ... Kel's magic F4 race bike build.


Well I've paid my monies so I'm committed (or should be:shutup:). The plan is to resurrect my old 100 project that started 13 years ago.

A breif & depressing history;
At the time it was seriously ambitious & advanced for a bucket. The first RS transplant that I'm aware of (to be corrected I'm sure). People were starting to use RS forks & SW, so why not just run the whole thing? Procured a bike from T&E

F5 Daves's build.


Okay, so I was going to keep this quiet incase it turned into an epic fail, but i figured some of the jokers out there may find some interest into this.

I decided a while back that I quite like the idea of forced induction, I built a 250cc turbo bike as a bit of a laugh and it's great fun however not really suitable power for anything at all and as you could imagine trying to turbo a bike half the size wouldn't really work that well.

So the next option is supercharging.

Sketchy's supercharged project.


Between far to many other interests/passions, I'm a photographer and was part time freelancing for some years.
.
http://christophercain.cc/b/d/buckets-apr12/_MG_1725.jpg



Chris C's great collection of action photos.


A few of us have these systems now. I thought it might be useful to have a thread to swap information.

Ecotrons Engine Management.


Bucket of the Month - September 2015- Glens H100.


Bucket of the Month - May 2015 - Junkyard Dog

'Junkyard Dog' is the apt name that this classic mut has been adorned with.
A true 'bucket build' this is a bike created from the best parts that have come to hand.


Bucket of the Month - March 2015 - Peter's FXR

Peter managed to pick up a basic FXR with a few goodie bits.

It was somewhat tatty when he got hold of it but he's fixed that in short order.


Bucket of the Month - February 2015 - Ken's Mudbug.

Ken's Mudbug has seen a long and sometimes painful development path.
It started in an RG250 frame, once he out-ran this he rehoused it in an NSR MC18 Frame.
Good thing he's an engineer and all-round whizz-kid on the tools as he adapted VFR front forks and an R6 Rear shock to run in the frame that came without such essential components.


December's Bucket of the month is Nick's 'Kawasuki'.

It's a Kawasaki ZXR250 rolling frame with a Suzuki FXR150 engine to power it.

Nick purchased the bike as a complete bucket but it has evolved steadily over the time he has been racing.

[Frits Overmars]

Six of the clock = 6 o'clockThat will do fine, thanks. So from now on we'll want a 6 o'clock ring peg :).

[JanBros]

thnx for the tips frits. i didnt think about having water go through the underside of the dam but it would be easy enough to do. water flows around the exh port now so all i would have to do is make two holes through the floor so the water can pass in and out from underneath.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=316572&d=1444871682

that way you'll only have trapped air and no water flowing ;)

[WilDun]

Six of the clock = 6 o'clock

Frits,
Yes those quaint English traditions never die! at least in the ex British countries (and I hope never will) - we often say it that way here too in NZ. - sort of not so clinical and digitized as 6.00, then there's quarter past six (6.15), half past six (6.30) ten to seven (6.50) etc. - guess you get the picture!
Oh, and we drive on the right side of the road (which is the left) - if you know what I mean! :rolleyes:

[tedspeed230]

Just looked for Ryger engine on YouTube and came up with CITS V-Twin?
Looks similar to alot of ideas put about on here?

[WilDun]

Just looked for Ryger engine on YouTube and came up with CITS V-Twin?
Looks similar to alot of ideas put about on here?

Yes, I mentioned that one on the oddball engines thread quite a while back, but no one seemed to notice!
I have always firmly believed that it (Ryger) is a highly developed version of that principle or similar, (forgetting the 'V' arrangement and looking at one piston/cylinder of course) - but which came first? the chicken? or the egg? :confused:

Then, as always, I could be entirely wrong!

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, Yes those quaint English traditions never die! at least in the ex British countries (and I hope never will) - we often say it that way here too in NZ. - sort of not so clinical and digitized as 6.00, then there's quarter past six (6.15), half past six (6.30) ten to seven (6.50) etc. - guess you get the picture!Forget about those Brits; It's how we dutch do it. Which is not surprising considering that the whole of New Zealand was named after the dutch province of Zeeland. Example:
6:15 = kwart over zes
6:30 = half zeven
6:50 = tien voor zeven


which came first? the chicken? or the egg? I try to stay away from all legal matters but as far as I know Cits got their hand slapped for infringement of an earlier Ryger patent.

[WilDun]

Forget about those Brits; It's how we dutch do it. Which is not surprising considering that the whole of New Zealand was named after the dutch province of Zeeland. Example:
6:15 = kwart over zes
6:30 = half zeven
6:50 = tien voor zeven

I try to stay away from all legal matters but as far as I know Cits got their hand slapped for infringement of an earlier Ryger patent.

Yes, I did feel that something like that could have been the case.

Re: language, there are an awful lot of similarities between Dutch (and maybe German) and English words (not to mention Norse) and I see some definitely recognizable words in your post examples! - pronunciation though might be bit of a battle for us.

New Zealand? - Zeeland? yes, because (I believe) it was named by Van Diemen originally (or was it Abel Tasman)?
But then you could say it was named by the British as "the land of new zeal"! - which it certainly was for our Dutch immigrants.

Then again, as always I could be totally wrong!

[2T Institute]

The old Double the size trick huh? That'll make it nice and unfair.

Was thinking about the MX application of the Ryger, there could be a market to be tapped right there. Get in bed with TM and KTM and watch watch what happens next. Clearly protests, but they are still legal and if emissions reduce then it is harder to argue against them. Maybe. But you wouldn't want to wait too long.

Shhhhh........................ they maybe watching, last year a quickly drawn up rule was introduced(by the promoter) into the MX nationals where 250 2T had "to remain standard from inlet manifold to exhaust flange" as a few quick privateers on KTM 250 SX's were getting top five placings regularly against the semi factory 250F's. No problems though driven development off into a different area to where we extending the over rev out like a 250F.;)

[peewee]

that way you'll only have trapped air and no water flowing ;)


yes i rethought this idea today. i think the best thing to do is, since the dam will become the new exh floor, prior to welding ill cut out the existing floor in the shape of the dam. problem solved :msn-wink:

got some junk cylinders so ill do a practice run first but in my head it shouldnt be difficult

[WilDun]

Sorry to intervene here folks, but I thought some of you budding engineers might be interested in hearing what this guy has to say on modern day developments - I believe every word he says - (I think).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__lheqeERb4

[MotleyCrue]

it may depend on the type of piston used and material of the peg. wiseco told me their pegs are around .003" interference fit if i recall. i think they just use a standard carbon steel.

With the 6 o'clock ring peg in the middle of the C port on a 250 size cylinder, about how wide can the C port get before the end of the rings cause problems. I know it depends on several things but ballpark about how wide for the C port ? How helpful is it to mod the cylinder just above the top middle of the C port to give the ring ends slightly more time to settle when the piston is travelling upwards? I have never run the end of the rings in the middle of a port before on any size engine and a 250cc cylinder would seem more likely to be a problem than on say a 50 cc cylinder.

[lodgernz]

Frits, can you tell us if Mr Gerrits is involved in the Ryger project?

[jasonu]

First time I've seen this 6' Oclock indication for the ring peg position. But it's perfectly logical; I love it and I 'd like to adopt it.
Now I'm just wondering about the correct spelling: 6 Oclock , 6-Oclock , 6 O'clock , any more variations?

sux-a-cluck (New Zealand accent)

[WilDun]

sux-a-cluck (New Zealand accent)

..........:laugh:...................

[NAR RG500]

Hi all,

I have been sifting over this thread over the years and love the knowledge and informtion shared on here.

I have a question for anyone with experience on the subject.

I am mixing Avgas and Maxima 927 Castor, Have run it in the bike once and it was fine but was quite hard to get mixed up and while I was doing a main jet change the fuel I drained out had a milky look to it after it sat for a while, so I assume it's seperating. Is there anything I can add to it to get it to be stable or should I just be using something else? I wanted to use castor for max protection.

Grateful for any advice.

Cheers

Neil

[wobbly]

No funnyer than " seex a cleek " Ozzy accent.
But then I would rather have " fush and chups " than "feesh and cheeps" - just a personal choice mind you.

[koenich]

Frits, can you tell us if Mr Gerrits is involved in the Ryger project?
first post for me, but maybe I can shed some light...

Over at Pitlane someone mentioned that the developers actual name is HarRY GERrits or HarRY GERritsen and not Harry Ryger. Post was deleted rather quickly ;)

[Muciek]

first post for me, but maybe I can shed some light...

Over at Pitlane someone mentioned that the developers actual name is HarRY GERrits or HarRY GERritsen and not Harry Ryger. Post was deleted rather quickly ;)

Yea there was post like this.

[Flettner]

first post for me, but maybe I can shed some light...

Over at Pitlane someone mentioned that the developers actual name is HarRY GERrits or HarRY GERritsen and not Harry Ryger. Post was deleted rather quickly ;)

Yes I read that too (pitlane), wasn't sure what to make of it?

[TZ350]

I am mixing Avgas and Maxima 927 Castor ... it's separating. Is there anything I can add to it to get it to be stable

Acetone ... its been a while so from memory, 500ml in 20L of avgas with Castrol R at 20:1. 1L tins or plastic bottles of Acetone can be brought at paint shops.

[ken seeber]

Happy thinking:
http://trademark.markify.com/trademarks/ctm/ryger/014093306

[koenich]

Happy thinking:
http://trademark.markify.com/trademarks/ctm/ryger/014093306

http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=WO&NR=2007142512A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20071213&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP

seems kinda legit on a first view :devil2:

[Frits Overmars]

With the 6 o'clock ring peg in the middle of the C port on a 250 size cylinder, about how wide can the C port get before the end of the rings cause problems. I know it depends on several things but ballpark about how wide for the C port?Let me start by explaining once more why the ring peg should be at the 6 0'clock position at all.
Each time the piston ring passes over the exhaust port, it bulges outward slightly, after which it is shoved back into its groove.
If the part of the ring to the left of the exhaust port does not have the same length as the part to the right of the port, this shoving will invoke an inclination of the ring to rotate in its groove; one end of the ring will constantly hammer against the ring peg. This may cause a burr on the ring end and/or it may work the peg loose.
The only way to prevent this is to put the peg diametrically opposite the exhaust port.

The C-port can be as wide as 40% of the bore, provided the peg is at the 6 o'clock position, so there is not more than 20% overhang of unsupported ring.
If the peg is off-center, even if the C-port width is not more than 40% of the bore, the ring overhang may become >20% on one side and we should be careful.


How helpful is it to mod the cylinder just above the top middle of the C port to give the ring ends slightly more time to settle when the piston is travelling upwards? I have never run the end of the rings in the middle of a port before on any size engine and a 250cc cylinder would seem more likely to be a problem than on say a 50 cc cylinder.The ring will be thankful if you remove the sharp top and bottom edges on all ports. At the exhaust ports you can also apply a radius. But a radius at the transfer port edges has the negative effect that it will facilitate the inflow from spent combustion gases into the transfer ducts, so here we should restrict ourselves to a really small bevel.
Large diameter rings are more prone to problems because their radial depth is usually smaller in relation to their diameter, compared to small diameter rings.

[Frits Overmars]

Happy thinking....It seems you missed my TST-post by just 8 minutes, Ken :shifty:.

[MotleyCrue]

Let me start by explaining once more why the ring peg should be at the 6 0'clock position at all.
Each time the piston ring passes over the exhaust port, it bulges outward slightly, after which it is shoved back into its groove.
If the part of the ring to the left of the exhaust port does not have the same length as the part to the right of the port, this shoving will invoke an inclination of the ring to rotate in its groove; one end of the ring will constantly hammer against the ring peg. This may cause a burr on the ring end and/or it may work the peg loose.
The only way to prevent this is to put the peg diametrically opposite the exhaust port.

The C-port can be as wide as 40% of the bore, provided the peg is at the 6 o'clock position, so there is not more than 20% overhang of unsupported ring.
If the peg is off-center, even if the C-port width is not more than 40% of the bore, the ring overhang may become >20% on one side and we should be careful.

The ring will be thankful if you remove the sharp top and bottom edges on all ports. At the exhaust ports you can also apply a radius. But a radius at the transfer port edges has the negative effect that it will facilitate the inflow from spent combustion gases into the transfer ducts, so here we should restrict ourselves to a really small bevel.
Large diameter rings are more prone to problems because their radial depth is usually smaller in relation to their diameter, compared to small diameter rings.


Thank you for the detailed explanation.:)

[jasonu]

No funnyer than " seex a cleek " Ozzy accent.
But then I would rather have " fush and chups " than "feesh and cheeps" - just a personal choice mind you.

What about a sux puk of pus in your frudge?

Now back to the Ryger...

[wobbly]

Now we know why the Interweb is not only a great resource its also bloody dangerous.

Its now simple to solve the Ryger technology issue and get all the info we need - send some large unfriendly people to this address.
Put pen and paper in the mans hand and threaten to remove his fingernails unless he cooperates.

Address:
Hengelosestraat 141
Post code: 7521 AA
Town: Enschede

[karter444]

with water flowing underneath.


to follow on from peewee,s post and ask a few questions that may help both of us with our exhaust post modifications . maybe Frits and Wobbly could comment and head us in the right direction .
My idea was to weld a vertical plate just inside the ex port entry up to a height just below tpo then weld from the base of the plate gradually raising the height of the ex port duct floor to achieve the exhaust duct exit shape as recommended by Wobbly . The reason for the vertical plate was to eliminate a heap of welding they may cause some barrel distortion , also its difficult to get into such a confirmed space to weld
I don't think that the bottom half of the port does much apart from allowing a big radius that gently pushes the ring back in , but the vertical plate may effect the returning mixture by forcing it upwards towards the cyl head as it enters the cyl and may effect the way the pipe works on the transfers , it could possibly be a help , that's something I don't know
If you think that the vertical plate is not a bad idea , would there be a better way to do the transfer ports . as the ports are commonly angled upwards and away from the exhaust to minimise the mixing of the incoming fuel with exhaust and reducing the incoming fuel to enter the exhaust port and as the vertical plate may eliminate this problem there may be some power gains by changing transfer port angles
cheers .


Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. Name: exhaust port 001.jpg Views: 0 Size: 396.8 KB ID: 316578



anyone care to comment ??

[WilDun]

What about a sux puk of pus in your frudge?

Now back to the Ryger...

Jason,Jason, - your first one may have been fun, but ...... you are now a country mile off the NZ accent and it's not funny anymore, so let it be please. -:no:

[husaberg]

Now we know why the Interweb is not only a great resource its also bloody dangerous.

Its now simple to solve the Ryger technology issue and get all the info we need - send some large unfriendly people to this address.
Put pen and paper in the mans hand and threaten to remove his fingernails unless he cooperates.

Address:
Hengelosestraat 141
Post code: 7521 AA
Town: Enschede

It might be better to use a honey trap.

[NAR RG500]

Acetone ... its been a while so from memory, 500ml in 20L of avgas with Castrol R at 20:1. 1L tins or plastic bottles of Acetone can be brought at paint shops.


Cool thank you for that TZ, I will do some research.

Cheers

[m4r]

http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=WO&NR=2007142512A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20071213&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP

seems kinda legit on a first view :devil2:


:clap:

can't wait to see the first home made valve rings :2thumbsup

[ken seeber]

It seems you missed my TST-post by just 8 minutes, Ken :shifty:.

Frits, the story of my life, so close yet so far. :violin: You young blokes are just so quick!!!!! :scooter:

Rings at positions other than 6 o'clock. Earlier engines, typically the 3 port reed/rotaries ran the ring gap between the A & C port, at around 45 degrees (would this be 7.30 or 4.30, or perhaps more correctly 180 degrees, the exhaust port being the datum). To me this is bad as the top of the piston can rock for and aft along the thrust axis. They did have wide C ports admittedly. Assuming the ring stays in contact with the bore, the top of the piston is moving relative to the stationary ring. Depending on the ring positioning, this can lead to contact or hammering of the ring peg (or anti rotation pin) against the end of the ring. Not an ideal situation. IAME pistons on their X30 engine have them indexed around by around 30 degrees, to the 150 or 210 deg position. These pins sometimes do come out in service, with some inevitable sadness. In addition to what Frits has pointed out, the moral is obvious.

[peewee]

Let me start by explaining once more why the ring peg should be at the 6 0'clock position at all.
Each time the piston ring passes over the exhaust port, it bulges outward slightly, after which it is shoved back into its groove.
If the part of the ring to the left of the exhaust port does not have the same length as the part to the right of the port, this shoving will invoke an inclination of the ring to rotate in its groove; one end of the ring will constantly hammer against the ring peg. This may cause a burr on the ring end and/or it may work the peg loose.
The only way to prevent this is to put the peg diametrically opposite the exhaust port.

The C-port can be as wide as 40% of the bore, provided the peg is at the 6 o'clock position, so there is not more than 20% overhang of unsupported ring.
If the peg is off-center, even if the C-port width is not more than 40% of the bore, the ring overhang may become >20% on one side and we should be careful.

The ring will be thankful if you remove the sharp top and bottom edges on all ports. At the exhaust ports you can also apply a radius. But a radius at the transfer port edges has the negative effect that it will facilitate the inflow from spent combustion gases into the transfer ducts, so here we should restrict ourselves to a really small bevel.
Large diameter rings are more prone to problems because their radial depth is usually smaller in relation to their diameter, compared to small diameter rings.


frits it might also be worth mentioning that a small upside down radius can also be used on the bottom of C.

[F5 Dave]

Jason,Jason, - your first one may have been fun, but ...... you are now a country mile off the NZ accent and it's not funny anymore, so let it be please. -:no:
Well he is an Aucklander so you have to excuse him. . . oh wait, this gets better.

[WilDun]

Well he is an Aucklander so you have to excuse him. . . oh wait, this gets better.

I beg your pardon Dave! :D

Accent thing's all sorted now - but that's more than can be said for this Ryger saga!- that Patent only gives us confirmation of an idea which most of us had in our heads anyway!

[husaberg]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/member.php/48608-ryger

It appears his profile has been set to Made BOO BOO in Nappies I would say its a spam related misunderstanding I have reported it to Mr Trousers.


Thanks Husa.

Hello Frits
I Spoke to Mental Trousers he said the status was reset for Harry.
But I feel the issue is (as does Mr T) that Harry was not logging in to KB before he tried to look at the pictures
Ie when he was following the link the picture is unavailable without first logging in to KB as a user.
Neither of us know why he was set to Has made BOO BOO in Nappies, but likely someone ie one of the forum mods thought he was a spammer maybe as he tried to post multiple links or suchlike?
This setting is reserved for people who have misbehaved on KB in some way and the user is unable to post without a mod checking his post first and has other privileges removed which (might) include not being able to see pictures.

[TZ350]

316636

Well I made it to the BOB battle of the buckets as spectator. Met up with YowLing, Budda and Lodgemz. The wind was a bit cold so I was very pleased to have a loan of one of YowLings windbreakers.

Buckets here is dominated by FXR150's heaps of those and very few 2T's.

316637

Probably the fastest 100cc 2T in the paddock was DiesilPigs RGV100 but unfortunately it was having its issues with cylinder sealing.

316640

There were a few TZR 50's and Lodgemz 70 racing with the main group of FXR's.

316639

There was an MB100

316638

And of course what would have to be my favorite, a Suzuki GP125 in fairly standard trim.

316641

The BOB got underway and had been running for a while when a rider fell and took a very bruising tumble. The red flags came out and things were held up for a while, while the ambo's did their job. Thankfully Lodgemz was all right, up and walking but taken away for observation as a precaution.

The last of the BOB was run in a shorter version of 15 laps which was basically a sprint race.

The front runner won by a country mile with a very fast and clean style. The scrapping was by the next three riders continuously swapping places, there was some very cunning and sometimes total brave moves being made. Great racing, and great to catch up with old friends.

A big thanks to YowLing for his hospitality, next year I am going to have the the Beast there, the BoB has to be one of those never to be missed meetings, that and Greymouth.

See you next year.

[mr bucketracer]

Well I made it to the BOB battle of the buckets as spectator. Met up with YowLing, Budda and Lodgemz. The wind was a bit cold so I was very pleased to have a loan of one of YowLings windbreakers.

Buckets here is dominated by FXR150's heaps of those and very few 2T's. Probably the fastest 100cc 2T in the paddock was DiesilPigs but unfortunately it was having its issues with cylinder sealing. There were a few TZR 50's and Lodgemz 70 racing with the main group of FXR's. There was an MB100 and of course what would have to be my favorite, a fairly standard Suzuki GP125.

The BOB got underway and had been running for a while when a rider fell and took a very bruising tumble. The red flags came out and things were held up for a while the ambo's did their job. Thankfully Lodgemz was all right, up and walking but taken away for observation as a precaution.

The last of the BOB was run in a shorter version of 15 laps which was basically a sprint race.

The front runner won by a country mile with a very fast and clean style. The scrapping was by the next three riders continuously swapping places, there was some very cunning and sometimes total brave moves being made. Great racing, and great to catch up with old friends.how did kel go ?

[TZ350]

how did Kel go ?

Unfortunately things conspired against Kel and he was unable to make the trip.

316642

I saw this KE125 engine in the back of a van and was told it was heading north for Kel's water cooled project.

I sure hope he has his new bike ready and can make the trip with me next year as I will be taking a van and have room for an extra bike or two. Kel and Chambers could both send their bikes in the van with me and fly down for the week ends racing.

[mr bucketracer]

Unfortunately things conspired against Kel and he was unable to make the trip. But I sure hope he can make the trip with me next year as I will be taking a van and have room for an extra bike or two. Kel and Chambers could both send their bikes in the van with me and fly down for the week ends racing.think more of us are having a crack next year so north out for the kill lol

[TZ350]

think more of us are having a crack next year so north out for the kill lol

We have to do this. They wan't us to come down, secretly I think they are confident they are going to give us the learn ..... LOL.

[Peter1962]

first post for me, but maybe I can shed some light...

Over at Pitlane someone mentioned that the developers actual name is HarRY GERrits or HarRY GERritsen and not Harry Ryger. Post was deleted rather quickly ;)

That was posted by Bob van der Zijden, a dutch tuner.

[jonny quest]

So who's going to draw up a 3d rendering?

I had thought about drilling holes to lubricate rings like is shown, I guess I'd consider the crankcase oil still a consumable then.

[mr bucketracer]

We have to do this. They wan't us to come down, secretly I think they are confident they are going to give us the learn ..... LOL.i get the feeling to :cool:

[Grumph]

Unfortunately things conspired against Kel and he was unable to make the trip.

I saw this KE125 engine in the back of a van and was told it was heading north for Kel's water cooled project.

I sure hope he has his new bike ready and can make the trip with me next year as I will be taking a van and have room for an extra bike or two. Kel and Chambers could both send their bikes in the van with me and fly down for the week ends racing.

Thank you for that Rob - Now i don't have to PM Kel to confirm it was handed over......Sorry i missed you.

[Yow Ling]

Roger will be staying for a few days in hospital, he has a few sore bits that will take a little while to fix

[mr bucketracer]

Roger will be staying for a few days in hospital, he has a few sore bits that will take a little while to fixhope he gets well soon , its the youth coming out in him (-; , forgets he's in his ...will say no more lol

[Askor]

316638

And of course what would have to be my favorite, a Suzuki GP125 in fairly standard trim.




Wooo my spare bucket was the favourite :banana:

Edit: Ridden by Autech on here


Roger will be staying for a few days in hospital, he has a few sore bits that will take a little while to fix

I got his crash on video, I'll have to upload it

[Askor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KT4cJl6HYs

[JanBros]

thoughts about these ring pins ?

http://www.us1.cc/toppinpistonprocess.html

[d2t]

I've searched this thread pretty far back and I've only found a reference to a single patent application (which apparently is not the Ryger engine) so I don't know if this has been discussed already but today I came across something interesting. It's a patent application from 2007 that incorporates some of the features that have been speculated upon here. Has anyone seen this before?

http://www.google.com/patents/WO2007142512A1?cl=en
http://www.patfr.com/download/WO2007142512.pdf

I don't know if this is the original Ryger concept but it's interesting nonetheless.

[jasonu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KT4cJl6HYs

Was there ice on the track or did him motor seize?

[Frits Overmars]

thoughts about these ring pins ? http://www.us1.cc/toppinpistonprocess.htmlFitting the pin from above, classic Yamaha-style, is what we do too. And we close the top of the pin hole by welding as well.


A hardened steel pin is pressed into the piston with a 6-ton pressThey could use a 500-ton press for all I care, as long as they don't put the full force onto the pin. A 6 ton press fit will crack the ring land; 0,1 ton should be plenty.
And what about the void where the original ring peg used to be? In the video it is left open; that would be an invitation for deto.

[Bert]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KT4cJl6HYs


Was there ice on the track or did him motor seize?

Poor Roger. Heal up quick for the north islands.
Very strange accident - it will be interesting to here his side of things.

[Askor]

Apparently his motor seized

[mr bucketracer]

Apparently his motor seizedlooks that way

[peewee]

Fitting the pin from above, classic Yamaha-style, is what we do too. And we close the top of the pin hole by welding as well.


frits ive never tried to weld a piston but im going to put it on my list of things to do real soon. just for fun and to see if it warps like they claim. i cant imagine it being more than three seconds to put a dab of weld in the pin hole. what do you make of the special welder they use that only heats the crown to 120* ? i thought aluminum melted at somewhere around 1100* or so

Unfortunately the welder can not be shown due to the fact that it is a custom made device and the secret to the whole operation. It can weld the piston never heating the crown over 120 degrees. Normal welders will warp the piston causing a disaster later. The top of the piston is then milled back to its original shape.

[Kickaha]

frits ive never tried to weld a piston but im going to put it on my list of things to do real soon. just for fun and to see if it warps like they claim..

We've welded a piston skirt before when someone took a bit much off, piston was preheated, welded and then it cooled down in a temp contolled oven thingy, then machined on a lathe

We ran it a season and then found when the motor was stripped it was starting to crack near the weld

[Yow Ling]

Was there ice on the track or did him motor seize?

engine feels like bucket of gravel when you turn it over , so maybe a gearbox problem, or could just be ice

[d2t]

I don't know if this is the original Ryger concept but it's interesting nonetheless.

No takers, eh? It might be worth mentioning that the patent was filed by the same person who owns the trademark to the "Ryger" company name.

I only found one diagram related to the patent but after reading through the application notes, I've went ahead and labeled all of the diagram's parts for ease of identification. I'm sure that nobody will be able to reverse engineer this into a usable performance product before the next round of FIA CIK starts and we begin to see the actual engine in use considering it's been almost a decade in development. I still wonder if this is the actual Ryger engine patent because I've seen it mentioned that stepped pistons are not allowed according to karting rules. It still seems to be the most viable concept and incorporates some of the ideas I've read on this thread in recent past.

316647

[JanBros]

And what about the void where the original ring peg used to be? In the video it is left open; that would be an invitation for deto.

weld that to or use something like JB-weld ?

[WilDun]

No takers, eh? It might be worth mentioning that the patent was filed by the same person who owns the trademark to the "Ryger" company name.
It still seems to be the most viable concept and incorporates some of the ideas I've read on this thread in recent past.

It's a real pity that development of a new concept has to be hampered by rules (ie as in the competition environment) when in the everyday world environment it could be seen as a great breakthrough (with unrestricted development)! -ie. unrestricted except for the pollution thing of course!

[tjbw]

No takers, eh? It might be worth mentioning that the patent was filed by the same person who owns the trademark to the "Ryger" company name.

I only found one diagram related to the patent but after reading through the application notes, I've went ahead and labeled all of the diagram's parts for ease of identification. I'm sure that nobody will be able to reverse engineer this into a usable performance product before the next round of FIA CIK starts and we begin to see the actual engine in use considering it's been almost a decade in development. I still wonder if this is the actual Ryger engine patent because I've seen it mentioned that stepped pistons are not allowed according to karting rules. It still seems to be the most viable concept and incorporates some of the ideas I've read on this thread in recent past.

316647

I can understand why stepped pistons which have supercharging effect would be banned. However the stepped piston in that drawing has less pumping effect than a conventional engine with crankcase compression.

[peewee]

janbros if your pin is in the center of the groove all you do is just machine the pin down a hair further than the groove depth. thats how mine are anyways.

[MotleyCrue]

I've searched this thread pretty far back and I've only found a reference to a single patent application (which apparently is not the Ryger engine) so I don't know if this has been discussed already but today I came across something interesting. It's a patent application from 2007 that incorporates some of the features that have been speculated upon here. Has anyone seen this before?

http://www.google.com/patents/WO2007142512A1?cl=en
http://www.patfr.com/download/WO2007142512.pdf

I don't know if this is the original Ryger concept but it's interesting nonetheless.


I think Frits said the Ryger only made mid 50s HP up until about 2 years ago so whatever patent information is relevant to that, and to most of us, must have been updated significantly around 2013. It might not even be published yet.

I think the piston is ultra long and has several transfers in it below the piston ring(s). The lower transfers loop to the transfers above the piston as some have suggested. 4 lower transfers feed 2 very tall transfers above the piston (guessing the 2 B ports), 2 lower transfers in the piston feed the 2 A ports. C is not fed from a separate piston skirt transfer. That makes 5 transfers on top and 6 transfers on bottom totalling 11.

Below each B would be 2 transfers in the skirt below the rings, stacked, but separated with enough skirt (25-30 mm) that they both start to open around 65 BBDC.

That would increase the transfer port area above the piston so instead of having 1C, 2Bs and 2As, it would be like aving 1C, 4Bs and 2As, probably enough transfer area increase to go from 13500 to 17000 rpm.

The piston would have to be long to include the pair of 2 stacked transfers in the skirt plus the 25-30 mm of skirt between the 2 stacked transfers, probably an added length equivalent to the mm of the spacer + the mm difference between a regular rod and the 90 mm rod.

Maybe some sharp cookie could draw that unless there is an obvious flaw in the thinking.

[Askor]

bucket of gravel

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[F5 Dave]

And good vid. I've told Roger about it. He will be a bit sore for a few weeks.

[Lightbulb]

That Patent drawing is basically useless to you, unless you have the ability to think of the natural progression. Really that is no more than a 1900 patent of a 2 stroke engine, and then coming up with an Aprilla engine design from that 1900's information. Very few people can have that type of foresight and then to not only create a work example, but one that makes more power and at the same time has lower emissions and a higher overall efficiency.
The Ryger people are very clever in deed to come up with what they have. I really want them to do well with their endeavours. I know only too well the effects of subtle differences in an engine and the dramatic performance increase or decrease that it can create.

Do you honestly think that publishing some of the old Ryger patent was going to do anything positive to encourage the people behind the Ryger engine to want to participate in discussions about engine technology ? They have more to offer the forum about their ideas and thinking than most can imagine, and post stuff that is most likely going to Pi$$ them off is not the way to learn from such people. They have without doubt worked very hard to come up with their ideas. The proof that they have worked hard for it, is because very experienced engine design people are blown away with the real technology that they have created.
Neil

[136kg136ps]

I can understand why stepped pistons which have supercharging effect would be banned. However the stepped piston in that drawing has less pumping effect than a conventional engine with crankcase compression.

Assuming on my part......this patent has a relation to the Ryger design.And that I have some grasp of basic mechanics and gas dynamics:scratch:then it seems to me....

The lower cylinder does not necessarily have to fill the entire 125cc+ of mixture.Only provide a pumping action in addition to the upper part of the pistons at some point in the cycle(likely near BDC) to further increase trapping efficiency.Possibly also providing damping to the piston as it approaches BDC.Timing the charge from the lower cylinder and communicating it to the upper could be handled by the placement of the internal ports and reeds.I've had some experience working on similarly configured high pressure air compressors .They use reeds to control the flow of air stage to stage at up to 6000 PSI although normally set at 3500.

Additionally,the piston area normally occupied by a straight skirt is out of the way for more of the cycle,allowing the cylinders transfer ports(and exhaust inflow)more time.Far better than just boost ports in the skirt.

The lower cylinders primary function may just be stabilization.

Then again,who knows,It may even be simpler.Frits said simple,I take him to mean exactly that.

Still leaves bearing surfaces of the piston and crank to sort out at 17k+ Which possibly are helped by cooler combustion temps and the damping action of the lower cylinder.

Thanks to all for the slow motion genesis of two stroke theory:soon:.

[wobbly]

When moving ring pins I simply use a small riffler file and shave down the old pin flush with the back of the groove.
You could of course use a 1mm slot drill in the mill.
The new pin is easily made from whats called piano wire, and use the Z axis hand wheel after drilling the hole 0.05mm undersize to press the wire in.
Never had a failure as I have always been moving to 6 o"clock.

[d2t]

and post stuff that is most likely going to Pi$$ them off is not the way to learn from such people.
Neil

Not my intention at all. Not trying to be the Ernst Degner to Mr. Ryger's Kaaden-like developments. As I stated, I'm sure nobody will be able to reverse engineer this almost decade old patent into anything usable in any amount of reasonable time. However, the starting point for an idea is only a glimpse into what could be and may encourage another to come up with new ideas in a different way than what has come to be with the Ryger. This forum is full of great/crazy ideas. I wish nothing but success for the Ryger team. If the technology is really that good, I'm sure the investment they made in development will pay off (and I'm sure they'll be keeping me poor as I'll be buying a Ryger engine for myself).

Still, I have my doubts that this is even close to what the final product looks like. I'm not a patent secret agent, I just got lucky at google.

[guyhockley]

Maybe; Kreidler used their 4-foot x 3-hand transmission from 1962 or '63. I couldn't find a date for mr. Morris' double-box Bantam.
316661

[breezy]

It's a real pity that development of a new concept has to be hampered by rules (ie as in the competition environment) when in the everyday world environment it could be seen as a great breakthrough (with unrestricted development)! -ie. unrestricted except for the pollution thing of course!

this patent also includes the term " prior art"... which i think means there has been an idea patented before using this idea, but that its now been improved, changed in some way . also read about changing height of the cylinder which could be the variation of a theme. maybe this was the original idea which( ryger) has improved upon . if the stepped piston is not usually allowed then the less emissions claim could perhaps sway that rule with cik..

[WilDun]

this patent also includes the term " prior art"... which i think means there has been an idea patented before using this idea, but that its now been improved, changed in some way . also read about changing height of the cylinder which could be the variation of a theme. maybe this was the original idea which( ryger) has improved upon . if the stepped piston is not usually allowed then the less emissions claim could perhaps sway that rule with cik..

Were the rules around 'stepped pistons' intended to prevent the use of the type of piston employed in the Hooper/Favill 'Wulf' motorcycle engine of the sixties? ie. with the charging part being the larger diameter part of the piston which is at the bottom.
If we are talking about a 'stepped piston' - when does it become a 'stepped piston' ? Obviously the one in that old patent drawing could be called that, but if the piston is just a disc with a reasonably substantial piston rod,(with straight line motion and sliding through a seal on a baseplate) - would that also be considered a stepped piston? ie. in Karting rules etc.

[mr bucketracer]

this patent also includes the term " prior art"... which i think means there has been an idea patented before using this idea, but that its now been improved, changed in some way . also read about changing height of the cylinder which could be the variation of a theme. maybe this was the original idea which( ryger) has improved upon . if the stepped piston is not usually allowed then the less emissions claim could perhaps sway that rule with cik..the old man said its prombly a steped piston think the step pistion the other way around was the band one ? prombley the use of modern day materals and some changes has made it work way better so was a good re visit by them. well done

[wobbly]

All patents must make reference to " prior art " to establish that the new idea is actually new.
Just a detail change to an existing item can of course be protested as an infringement of an issued patent, but its a very murky area of law
and usually doomed to failure.
If the new idea is detailed to the last degree as being a significant improvement over what has gone before - then the patent is watertight and can
be protected with instant threat of lawsuit.

[speedpro]

No one seems to have latched on to the significance of what the Ryger system might mean to multi-cylinder 2-strokes. If the crankshaft cavity takes no part in the induction then there is nothing stopping cylinders on a "V" sharing the crankpin. The rods can be side by side on a common pin with no regard for primary compression and which cylinder is where in the stroke. There would be no need for a twin crank, apart from gyroscopic issues and other such things. The width would still be defined by the width of the transfer passages and bore dimensions but in other ways the engine could be smaller.

[husaberg]

No one seems to have latched on to the significance of what the Ryger system might mean to multi-cylinder 2-strokes. If the crankshaft cavity takes no part in the induction then there is nothing stopping cylinders on a "V" sharing the crankpin. The rods can be side by side on a common pin with no regard for primary compression and which cylinder is where in the stroke. There would be no need for a twin crank, apart from gyroscopic issues and other such things. The width would still be defined by the width of the transfer passages and bore dimensions but in other ways the engine could be smaller.

Great spotting In a v they would be overlapping so the width increase would be only the conrod plus a few mms.

[tjbw]

Were the rules around 'stepped pistons' intended to prevent the use of the type of piston employed in the Hooper/Favill 'Wulf' motorcycle engine of the sixties? ie. with the charging part being the larger diameter part of the piston which is at the bottom.
If we are talking about a 'stepped piston' - when does it become a 'stepped piston' ? Obviously the one in that old patent drawing could be called that, but if the piston is just a disc with a reasonably substantial piston rod,(with straight line motion and sliding through a seal on a baseplate) - would that also be considered a stepped piston? ie. in Karting rules etc.

I had a quick look at CIK-FIA kart regulations.

Supercharging is not permitted. Didn't see any mention of stepped piston.

The piston, shown on the Gerrits patent drawing, does not supercharge.

It seems CIK-FIA like smoke, so you have to add some two-stroke oil to the fuel.

[Dutch Fisher]

What is the CIK-FIA definition of supercharging?

Is a primary CR ratio of 1:1 or greater considered supercharging?

[Frits Overmars]

No one seems to have latched on to the significance of what the Ryger system might mean to multi-cylinder 2-strokes. If the crankshaft cavity takes no part in the induction then there is nothing stopping cylinders on a "V" sharing the crankpin. The rods can be side by side on a common pin with no regard for primary compression.No one? Well, we have. There are two V-twins on the Ryger drawing board.


What is the CIK-FIA definition of supercharging? Is a primary CR ratio of 1:1 or greater considered supercharging?A compression ratio of 1:1 means that the minimum volume is equal to the maximum volume, so no compression at all. I wouldn't exactly call that supercharging.
And fortunately the CIK doesn't either, otherwise all two-strokes would be illegal.

[yesyes]

No one? Well, we have. There are two V-twins on the Ryger drawing board.

A compression ratio of 1:1 means that the minimum volume is equal to the maximum volume, so no compression at all. I wouldn't exactly call that supercharging.
And fortunately the CIK doesn't either, otherwise all two-strokes would be illegal.



:girlfight: :nya: what a funny post ;)

[Lightbulb]

No one seems to have latched on to the significance of what the Ryger system might mean to multi-cylinder 2-strokes. If the crankshaft cavity takes no part in the induction then there is nothing stopping cylinders on a "V" sharing the crankpin. The rods can be side by side on a common pin with no regard for primary compression and which cylinder is where in the stroke. There would be no need for a twin crank, apart from gyroscopic issues and other such things. The width would still be defined by the width of the transfer passages and bore dimensions but in other ways the engine could be smaller.

It is clear that the limit of the spacing both radially and linear is the area required to fit the appropriate manifolds and ducting. It can not be made easily as compact as a conventional radial engine. But with supercharging/turbo charging, there is a real possibility that this type of engine will replace 4stroke engines in the future. It is very exciting indeed.
Neil

[tjbw]

What is the CIK-FIA definition of supercharging?

Is a primary CR ratio of 1:1 or greater considered supercharging?

I didn't see any definition of supercharging in the CIK-FIA karting regulations.

In a conventional crankcase compression two-stroke the volume of mixture transferred to the cylinder at BDC is no greater than the cylinder swept volume, irrespective of primary compression ratio. The pressure in cylinder at BDC is same as pressure under piston at TDC, so no supercharging.

Now convert this engine as shown on the Gerrits patent, the volume of mixture transferred to the cylinder is reduced to no more than the swept volume from the annular primary compression space. There is no supercharging, more like choking?

This is ignoring dynamic effects.

[WilDun]

It is clear that the limit of the spacing both radially and linear is the area required to fit the appropriate manifolds and ducting. It can not be made easily as compact as a conventional radial engine. But with supercharging/turbo charging, there is a real possibility that this type of engine will replace 4stroke engines in the future. It is very exciting indeed.
Neil

Neil, I guess slightly 'skewed' cylinders (as on the old T500 Suzukis - all skewed in the same direction of course) would work well in the case of a radial, but unless we are able to go back to straight pipes, ( which may be possible- I dunno) then plumbing exhausts might be a bit of a nightmare with an exhaust system twice as big as the engine itself, plus turbochargers, intercoolers and all the associated plumbing! - I think I now see why they changed to turbines! :sweatdrop
Maybe we should get this single cylinder idea resolved first! - look how the other Neil has simplified the very complicated 'Crecy' by using only one cylinder!

:)

[wobbly]

Quote " the volume of mixture transferred to the cylinder at BDC is no greater than the cylinder swept volume " .
WRONG.
I posted a few pages back answering a question about how much volume is going thru the transfer ducts into the cylinder.
There have been cases I have seen of a Delivery Ratio number of 1.3, this indicates 30% more volume is being inducted and deposited in the
cylinder than the numeric swept volume.
But as the scavenging and trapping efficiency are both less than unity, some of this ends up as pollution in the Ex duct - despite the stuffing
effect of the rear cone area contraction.

Quote " The pressure in cylinder at BDC is same as pressure under piston at TDC, so no supercharging."
WRONG AGAIN.
The pipe diffuser is pulling a huge depression on the Ex port at BDC, thus the pressure in the cylinder is LOWER than the case pressure or we would have no flow
due to no pressure ratio delta - we have pipe effect induced supercharging if you like.
Only lawnmowers use the case pressure to transfer A/F into the cylinder.

[crbbt]

No one? Well, we have. There are two V-twins on the Ryger drawing board.


Does the wet crankcase prevent the cylinders pointing downwards?

[philou]

I have to move the pin on a piston ring.

which difference in diameter between the hole and the pin for proper maintains ?

0,1 mm it's correct ?

[Frits Overmars]

Does the wet crankcase prevent the cylinders pointing downwards?Not more than on any radial four-stroke engine. In short: No.

[MotleyCrue]

Quote " the volume of mixture transferred to the cylinder at BDC is no greater than the cylinder swept volume " .
WRONG.
I posted a few pages back answering a question about how much volume is going thru the transfer ducts into the cylinder.
There have been cases I have seen of a Delivery Ratio number of 1.3, this indicates 30% more volume is being inducted and deposited in the
cylinder than the numeric swept volume.
But as the scavenging and trapping efficiency are both less than unity, some of this ends up as pollution in the Ex duct - despite the stuffing
effect of the rear cone area contraction.

Quote " The pressure in cylinder at BDC is same as pressure under piston at TDC, so no supercharging."
WRONG AGAIN.
The pipe diffuser is pulling a huge depression on the Ex port at BDC, thus the pressure in the cylinder is LOWER than the case pressure or we would have no flow
due to no pressure ratio delta - we have pipe effect induced supercharging if you like.
Only lawnmowers use the case pressure to transfer A/F into the cylinder.

I think the original point being made is that there is no positive displacement supercharging for a non-stepped piston.

[Dutch Fisher]

I didn't see any definition of supercharging in the CIK-FIA karting regulations.


Indeed the best we get is Article 2.6.1 Para.3
"The engine shall not comprise a compressor or any supercharging system"

Very enlightening, the use of the word system is somewhat open-ended.


Here's a revision of my previous question with a couple of well placed extra characters that escaped my last attempt.

Is a primary CR ratio of 1.8:1 or greater considered supercharging?

[wobbly]

Surely the logic that the current engines all have a primary CR near 1.3 means that at 1.8 ( a tiny case = more compression ) means it
is no different.
My belief is that the Ryger is using "direct transfer technology " ( if they were Japs not Dutch it would already be called DTT ) ie some of the 11 transfers allow direct passage of flow from the inlet
straight into the cylinder without having to go thru any connecting volume.

[husaberg]

My belief is that the Ryger is using "direct transfer technology " ( if they were Japs not Dutch it would already be called DTT ) ie some of the 11 transfers allow direct passage of flow from the inlet
straight into the cylinder without having to go thru any connecting volume.

That's what I think to due to the ports Kadenacy effect and intake flow inertia.

. The Kadenacy effect depends on a pressure difference over both sides of a tube. This difference will accelerate a mass of gas in the tube until the pressure difference is zero. Because of inertia the mass will keep on moving, causing a low pressure at the former high-pressure side of the tube. This low pressure sucks in ambient gas. That's all folks..

That coupled with a very high delivery ratio

[WilDun]

There have been cases I have seen of a Delivery Ratio number of 1.3, this indicates 30% more volume is being inducted and deposited in the cylinder than the numeric swept volume.

Seems to me that trying to fit all this into the competition rulebooks in a fair manner is a bit of a nightmare! but then, I know that Frits will be aware of that!

Looking at it from the point of view of two strokes in general, I reckon it all looks very interesting, as there are no impediments such as the banning of supercharging as in competition engines , (which seems to exist anyway without being noticed and is very difficult to quantify).

Then there will be the battle with the big four stroke boys, firmly battened down and securely attached to their perch! I think it will all be very exciting!

[Frits Overmars]

Seems to me that trying to fit all this into the competition rulebooks in a fair manner is a bit of a nightmare! but then, I know that Frits will be aware of that!You bet. I've been formulating technical regulations for various types of motor sport during the last couple of decades, but before that I practiced reading between the rulebook lines all my life. And the CIK karting technical regulations are a joy.
Small example: in some classes it is not allowed to add ports to the cylinder. So what are ports? Let me take you on a wonderful trip through the rulebook....
1.2.3.2 – Ducts or passages
Ducts or passages are cylindrical or cylindrical-conical ele­ments allowing the passage of gases....

1.2.3.3 – Inlet or exhaust port
A port is composed of the intersection of the periphery of the cylinder and the inlet or exhaust duct....Suppose I add two auxiliary exhaust channels with rectangular cross sections. Since they are neither cylindrical nor cylindrical-conical, they do not qualify as ducts.
So their intersections with the periphery of the cylinder do not qualify as ports either.
Don't you love it?

[ken seeber]

I have to move the pin on a piston ring.

which difference in diameter between the hole and the pin for proper maintains ?

0,1 mm it's correct ?

Philou,
The pins we use are around 8 long and dia 1.55. They have a taper on one end and also have a longitudinal slot to prevent any hydraulicing ?(from say coolant) when bring pressed in. We drill the piston with a 1.5 drill, giving a 0.05 interference. The actual force to press the pin in, at a guess, is around 800 - 1000 N.

316705

Frits,
Agreed, the definition of passages/ports/ducts is confusing, but always happens when some new technology(in any field) comes along that is outside the conventional understanding and the associated rules, regulations and laws..
Irrespective, I am starting to think that the Ryger system is a form of direct air inlet system, and just used the below piston volume for starting and possibly some small contribution to the dampening of the piston downward piston inertia forces. The routing of the passages etc being necessary to route all the ingested air to pass thru the obligatory 30 carb.

316706

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, Agreed, the definition of passages/ports/ducts is confusing, but always happens when some new technology(in any field) comes along that is outside the conventional understanding and the associated rules, regulations and laws..Ken, the above-quoted CIK-rules are still the same as they were 10 years ago :p.

[jonny quest]

Usually good rulebooks also include

*and anything may be deemed legal and or unlegal by sanctioning body at any time.

[WilDun]

That is a very thought provoking photo Ken! - is it for real? or ...........what? :confused:

[ken seeber]

Ken, the above-quoted CIK-rules are still the same as they were 10 years ago :p.

Frits, that's the point. They have a responsibility to keep up with the times and any new technologies. Their KZ rules and they are filled up with all sorts of ambiguities, possibly due to the translation, but confusing nonetheless. Rules are always going to be challenged. How's the world to advance if this is not the case, but if the rules are vague then it is open to varying interpretations, bias, corruption etc.

Following JQ's point that rules "can be deemed legal or illegal by the sanctioning body at any time" is fraught with problems. How is anyone going to know what is going on, whether it be the officials or the competitor. I consider that if this would constitute a bad rule book.

Willy, that pic is of a set of rubberies of a TM KZ10B cylinder, these being mounted on a 54 mandrel to show their correct relationship. In this case, a B passage has been removed and a rough model of a direct air inlet (throttled) put in its place. I posted this here a round 3 - 4 months ago, just to show the principle. Following that, we applied this to the side of a kart engine, mainly to see if it would start. It sort of did, with this being the only inlet, all the rest being blocked off, isolating the crankcase from any airflow or scavenging function. As to its high speed operation, I haven't done anything since. Work and karting events just seem to get in the way. Notwithstanding, there is a very productive man on the case. :msn-wink:

[2005bully]

posted by ken seeber
Irrespective, I am starting to think that the Ryger system is a form of direct air inlet system, and just used the below piston volume for starting and possibly some small contribution to the dampening of the piston downward piston inertia forces. The routing of the passages etc being necessary to route all the ingested air to pass thru the obligatory 30 carb.

Ken... From the information available that is the most logical conclusion. As an added twist..... Frits has said SIMPLE and a stepped piston just does not seem simple enough. What if instead of a stepped piston the separate primary compression chamber was fed by combustion pressure .... i.e. "exhaust". The chamber would inter mix or maybe even replace the first mixture exiting the transfer ports with hi pressure ex gases. This separate primary compression chamber would be fed combustion pressure from the previous stroke through a reed valve, thus making the pressure available to be released dependent upon the strength of the previous power stroke, as each previous power stroke becomes stronger the chambers exiting velocity would increase and exert more draw on the direct air inlet transfer ports. Kinda like a jet engine.... as speed increases it would deliver an ever escalating quantity of inducted air. That would explain the achievement of extreme rpm's. Perhaps this scheme would help promote hcci as well as lower the emissions by reducing the fresh mixture exiting out the exhaust. Where the theory falls flat is that there still needs to be some method of mechanical primary pumping action to get it started. Then again maybe stepped pistons are SIMPLE ??? Kermit Buller

[Grumph]

posted by ken seeber
Irrespective, I am starting to think that the Ryger system is a form of direct air inlet system, and just used the below piston volume for starting and possibly some small contribution to the dampening of the piston downward piston inertia forces. The routing of the passages etc being necessary to route all the ingested air to pass thru the obligatory 30 carb.

Ken... From the information available that is the most logical conclusion. As an added twist..... Frits has said SIMPLE and a stepped piston just does not seem simple enough. What if instead of a stepped piston the separate primary compression chamber was fed by combustion pressure .... i.e. "exhaust". The chamber would inter mix or maybe even replace the first mixture exiting the transfer ports with hi pressure ex gases. This separate primary compression chamber would be fed combustion pressure from the previous stroke through a reed valve, thus making the pressure available to be released dependent upon the strength of the previous power stroke, as each previous power stroke becomes stronger the chambers exiting velocity would increase and exert more draw on the direct air inlet transfer ports. Kinda like a jet engine.... as speed increases it would deliver an ever escalating quantity of inducted air. That would explain the achievement of extreme rpm's. Perhaps this scheme would help promote hcci as well as lower the emissions by reducing the fresh mixture exiting out the exhaust. Where the theory falls flat is that there still needs to be some method of mechanical primary pumping action to get it started. Then again maybe stepped pistons are SIMPLE ??? Kermit Buller

If that mystery lump on the barrel is some kind of pressure bleed port from the exhaust, and looking at what you've both posted, could we be looking at some form of pressure wave compressor ? Comprex comes to mind as an example vaguely similar in function. IMO, very little primary compression is needed at cranking speed to fire things up, just get a little vapour in there...
But of course, I'd think a form of pressure wave compression would fall down on the no supercharging clause.

[Larry Wiechman]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=316706&d=1432863883

Ken's photo reminds me of the early McCulloch kart engines that had a boost port duct that bypassed the reed plate. People were quick to remove the divider wall so all ports were fed by reeds, only. This was in the age of box mufflers and crappy pipe designs. Maybe a late opening C port and an effective pipe could be made to work.

[peewee]

Philou,
The pins we use are around 8 long and dia 1.55. They have a taper on one end and also have a longitudinal slot to prevent any hydraulicing ?(from say coolant) when bring pressed in. We drill the piston with a 1.5 drill, giving a 0.05 interference. The actual force to press the pin in, at a guess, is around 800 - 1000 N.

316705


if the pin was installed from the top down with weld over the top i wonder if a press fit would even be necesarry ?

[Dutch Fisher]

My belief is that the Ryger is using "direct transfer technology", ie some of the 11 transfers allow direct passage of flow from the inlet straight into the cylinder without having to go thru any connecting volume.

Wob, you wanna put some meat on the bones of that sysopsis

[Frits Overmars]

Usually good rulebooks also include *and anything may be deemed legal and or unlegal by sanctioning body at any time.You call that good?? It means you can as well throw the book away because in case of a difference of opinion you will have nothing to fall back on.
It's the same with remarks like "This is not within the spirit of the rules". Damn the spirit; something is either written down or it isn't.
It is the responsibility of the rulemaker to make and keep the rulebook simple and unambiguous.

[jonny quest]

No I don't call it good.

It's their way of giving up and giving themselves a loop hole.

[jonny quest]

So which forum member was closest on Ryger design?

[Frits Overmars]

So which forum member was closest on Ryger design?Hold your horses Jonny. I can't answer that question until the new patent has been made public. But by then you can decide for yourself.
(I do have a fairly short shortlist :shifty:).

[jonny quest]

Eh, you're to smart for your our own good.

Take the bait!

[tjbw]

You call that good?? It means you can as well throw the book away because in case of a difference of opinion you will have nothing to fall back on.
It's the same with remarks like "This is not within the spirit of the rules". Damn the spirit; something is either written down or it isn't.
It is the responsibility of the rulemaker to make and keep the rulebook simple and unambiguous.

Or it's not worth the paper it's not written on ;)

[seattle smitty]

I've been formulating technical regulations for various types of motor sport during the last couple of decades, but before that I practiced reading between the rulebook lines all my life. And the CIK karting technical regulations are a joy.
Small example: in some classes it is not allowed to add ports to the cylinder. So what are ports? Let me take you on a wonderful trip through the rulebook....Suppose I add two auxiliary exhaust channels with rectangular cross sections. Since they are neither cylindrical nor cylindrical-conical, they do not qualify as ducts.
So their intersections with the periphery of the cylinder do not qualify as ports either.
Don't you love it?

Outbaord racing would love to have you, Frits.

Rules: displacement, un-blown, any liquid fuel. Home-made engines legal and greeted with enthusiasm by the members.

(EDIT) Oops, no nitro in European racing.

[2005bully]

If that mystery lump on the barrel is some kind of pressure bleed port from the exhaust, and looking at what you've both posted, could we be looking at some form of pressure wave compressor ? Comprex comes to mind as an example vaguely similar in function. IMO, very little primary compression is needed at cranking speed to fire things up, just get a little vapour in there...
But of course, I'd think a form of pressure wave compression would fall down on the no supercharging clause.

Grumph...In all normal 2 strokes the movement of gasses is initiated by mechanical means, but as the movement of these gasses continue, it becomes assisted by non mechanical means. With that in mind wouldn't the normal 2 stroke definition of supercharging need to involve an additional mechanical method of pumping. If simply pressure or wave energy is robbed from the power stroke (or exhaust) it would seem hard to label it as supercharging. The concept uses the same basic principles as a normal 2 stroke, it just uses a different method of application.. Kermit Buller

[philou]

Philou,
The pins we use are around 8 long and dia 1.55. They have a taper on one end and also have a longitudinal slot to prevent any hydraulicing ?(from say coolant) when bring pressed in. We drill the piston with a 1.5 drill, giving a 0.05 interference. The actual force to press the pin in, at a guess, is around 800 - 1000 N.

316705


A very big thanks Ken :niceone:

[Grumph]

Grumph...In all normal 2 strokes the movement of gasses is initiated by mechanical means, but as the movement of these gasses continue, it becomes assisted by non mechanical means. With that in mind wouldn't the normal 2 stroke definition of supercharging need to involve an additional mechanical method of pumping. If simply pressure or wave energy is robbed from the power stroke (or exhaust) it would seem hard to label it as supercharging. The concept uses the same basic principles as a normal 2 stroke, it just uses a different method of application.. Kermit Buller

While the movement of a piston is a mechanical means, the gas moves due to the pressure differential thus created. I think it's well proven that the depression created when the exhaust opens has more to do with drawing the charge in than any positive displacement from the descending piston.
To adress the labelling of a supercharging function...As I understand it, the rules prohibit any additional supercharging device. This is very probably a way around the long perceived "internal compression" of the "orthodox" 2 stroke. From what I've read, post WW2 the 2 stroke was only allowed to remain legal despite the apparent supercharge because no one thought it would ever be competitive...
As Frits has pointed out, drafting rules is a minefield. Been there for years here in NZ, large portions of the MNZ rulebook still have my fingerprints on them...The fact that they're largely unchanged merely says to me I got lucky. A continuing hobby is submitting remits tidying up bad rules, lol.

[Dutch Fisher]

Here's the FIA F3 Tech rules definition on supercharging from 2013. A somewhat more comprehensive volume of regs.

1.11 Supercharging:
Increasing the weight of the charge of the fuel/air mixture in the combustion chamber (over the weight
induced by normal atmospheric pressure, ram effect and dynamic effects in the intake and/or exhaust
system) by any means whatsoever. The injection of fuel under pressure is not considered to be
supercharging.


If that was dropped into todays CIK-FIA KZ2 regs, all current homologated engines would pass

[jasonu]

It's the same with remarks like "This is not within the spirit of the rules". Damn the spirit; .

Well that's Bucket racing fucked.

What about this gem that was uttered by a then MNZ official-
'Bucket Racing is a self policing class'....

[jonny quest]

Here's the FIA F3 Tech rules definition on supercharging from 2013. A somewhat more comprehensive volume of regs.

1.11 Supercharging:
Increasing the weight of the charge of the fuel/air mixture in the combustion chamber (over the weight
induced by normal atmospheric pressure, ram effect and dynamic effects in the intake and/or exhaust
system) by any means whatsoever. The injection of fuel under pressure is not considered to be
supercharging.


If that was dropped into todays CIK-FIA KZ2 regs, all current homologated engines would pass

So if your VE is over 100%, your engine is supercharged. Good to know

[wobbly]

As I said just up a few posts its pipe dynamic effects in a 2T that create a VE over 100% , and because this gain isnt
"mechanically assisted " in any way its legal.
My take on the transfer config in the Ryger is based on Frits 24/7 reed principal ( that we know works ) and the tiny slip
made when the spacer under the cylinder was refereed to somewhere as a "valve plate ".
Several times I have said that we cannot see a reed block flange clamped between the rubber manifold and the reed box that has
been added to the stock cylinder, so logic dictates that reverse flow is prevented at another location, just not right at the carb exit.

[Tim Ey]

Hey everyone!

As in this place are a lot of twostroke addicts, I may ask if someone has fitted an Ignitech DC-CDI-P2-race to a stock Aprilia RS250 / Suzuki RGV250.

There are some questions that occured to me:
-How do I manage to work with the "solenoid" that goes to the carbs? I did not have the time jet to check when it opens and what the point of this system is. My guess is that its influence might not be very hugh - because its hose diameter is quite narrow.
-Has anyone measured an original ignition / powervalve actuator over TPS and RPM? I do not want to start at zero :-)
-Has some of you made an Engmod File for this bike? Or otherway round: Does anyone know how much ccm crankhouse volume the left and right cylinder have? I have taken a look through the reed inlet and the volume seems to be hugh...

Cheers!
Tim

[adegnes]

Yep
316720

[jonny quest]

Post a pic of the cutaway Agnes!

Did you do anything to the insides?

Very clever!

[ken seeber]

Here's the FIA F3 Tech rules definition on supercharging from 2013. A somewhat more comprehensive volume of regs.

1.11 Supercharging:
Increasing the weight of the charge of the fuel/air mixture in the combustion chamber (over the weight
induced by normal atmospheric pressure, ram effect and dynamic effects in the intake and/or exhaust
system) by any means whatsoever. The injection of fuel under pressure is not considered to be
supercharging.


If that was dropped into todays CIK-FIA KZ2 regs, all current homologated engines would pass

Actually, DF, I disagree. There are so many flaws in these words:

1. What is the combustion chamber? The volume defined by the head and piston at absolute TDC? The swept displacement of the piston and where’s that from, BDC or when the exh valve or port shuts?
2. To me this could rule out a conventional (not possibly Ryger) crankcase scavenged 2 strokes as we currently know them. This is because they utilize a pump (the changing volume in the crankcase) to push air or air/fuel into the working cylinder (whatever that is) at parts of its operation, irrespective of the pumping displacement of the pump relative to the working cylinder.
3. This would also rule out air assisted direct injection, which with the Orbital system used a small compressor of around 3 – 4 % of the engine displacement. A good technology eliminated.

Anyone want to write some sensible rules? How about “we give you all X litres of fuel and you have to do X laps” and you can use whatever you want/brung to do it with.

[WilDun]

To digress a little :-
Frits, does the Ryger need to have a plated (or hard) bore?

[speedpro]

Or box racing. If it fits in the box you can race it.

[adegnes]

Post a pic of the cutaway Agnes!

Did you do anything to the insides?

Very clever!

Thanks!

All I did was tear out the windigs.
316742
316743
316744

[philou]

What is the mass of the rotor ?

[adegnes]

What is the mass of the rotor ?

2.17kgm2, the plan is to make a detachable flywheel for the axle, bumping it up to around 6-7kgm2 when needed.

[Frits Overmars]

Anyone want to write some sensible rules? How about “we give you all X litres of fuel and you have to do X laps” and you can use whatever you want/brung to do it with.I'm all for it.



2.17kgm2, the plan is to make a detachable flywheel for the axle, bumping it up to around 6-7kgm2 when needed.Watch your rotor rpm, Adegnes. It will certainly be higher than the original motor's design rpm. The bearings may not be up to it in the long run.
And I don't know how strong the rotor structure itself is, but you don't want to be in the same time zone when it explodes.

[adegnes]

I'm all for it.


Watch your rotor rpm, Adegnes. It will certainly be higher than the original motor's design rpm. The bearings may not be up to it in the long run.
And I don't know how strong the rotor structure itself is, but you don't want to be in the same time zone when it explodes.

I share your concern. The bearings should be fine up to 4500rpm, more with limited lifespan(skf 6316,6319), the rotor at least 3000rpm continuous cause thats what the motor was spinning.
70mph+ with my scooter on it, no vibration or other scary stuff.
It'll be fine!(famous last words...)

[Sketchy_Racer]

I share your concern. The bearings should be fine up to 4500rpm, more with limited lifespan(skf 6316,6319), the rotor at least 3000rpm continues cause thats what the motor was spinning.
70mph+ with my scooter on it, no vibration or other scary stuff.
It'll be fine!(famous last words...)

What diameter is the shaft? I'm guessing it will be pretty big if your inertia is that high!

[adegnes]

What diameter is the shaft? I'm guessing it will be pretty big if your inertia is that high!

80mm shaft.
Same Sketchy_Racer as on the Simple Dyno forum?

[tjbw]

Actually, DF, I disagree. There are so many flaws in these words:

1. What is the combustion chamber? The volume defined by the head and piston at absolute TDC? The swept displacement of the piston and where’s that from, BDC or when the exh valve or port shuts?
2. To me this could rule out a conventional (not possibly Ryger) crankcase scavenged 2 strokes as we currently know them. This is because they utilize a pump (the changing volume in the crankcase) to push air or air/fuel into the working cylinder (whatever that is) at parts of its operation, irrespective of the pumping displacement of the pump relative to the working cylinder.
3. This would also rule out air assisted direct injection, which with the Orbital system used a small compressor of around 3 – 4 % of the engine displacement. A good technology eliminated.

Anyone want to write some sensible rules? How about “we give you all X litres of fuel and you have to do X laps” and you can use whatever you want/brung to do it with.

Relax Ken, it's only a definition for F3 cars, which are restricted to four stroke engines.

What they forgot to mention in the regulations was that supercharging is not permitted, though the regulations at a glance webpage says engines must be normally aspirated.

I like this specification:

The engine must run clockwise.

[FastFred]

As in this place are a lot of twostroke addicts, I may ask if someone has fitted an Ignitech DC-CDI-P2-race to a stock Aprilia RS250 / Suzuki RGV250.

How do I manage to work with the "solenoid" that goes to the carbs?
Cheers!
Tim

Hi Tim
There is an RGV RS250 forum where there is no doubt a section on using Ignitecs:- http://www.rgv250.co.uk/forums/index.php?/forum/23-aprilia-rs250-issues/

Also Ignitec manual for the DC-CDI-P2-race which is freely available from their website has a schematic showing the wiring layout.

Team ESE use the DC-CDI-P2-race but on single cylinder engines so a lot of the features are either not used or used for somthing other than their original purpose.

The Ignitec DC-CDI-P2-race is a good ignition, very easy to use.

But there is one confusing feature, when it says "power out", there is no +12V out, it is a switchable earth, if its a light you want to turn on, then you run +12V to the light and the earth or -12V side back to the Ignitec which then grounds the light to turn it on. So power out actually means switchable -12V.

[richban]

Hi Tim
There is an RGV RS250 forum where there is no doubt a section on using Ignitecs:- http://www.rgv250.co.uk/forums/index.php?/forum/23-aprilia-rs250-issues/

Also Ignitec manual for the DC-CDI-P2-race which is freely available from their website has a schematic showing the wiring layout.

Team ESE use the DC-CDI-P2-race but on single cylinder engines so a lot of the features are either not used or used for somthing other than their original purpose.

The Ignitec DC-CDI-P2-race is a good ignition, very easy to use.

But there is one confusing feature, when it says "power out", there is no +12V out, it is a switchable earth, if its a light you want to turn on, then you run +12V to the light and the earth or -12V side back to the Ignitec which then grounds the light to turn it on. So power out actually means switchable -12V.

Best thing is to contact Ignitech. I do remember them telling me that the Unit will not operate the RGV / RS power jet system. But best check with them. We have had them running on a couple of rgvs and rs race bikes.

[Dutch Fisher]

Relax Ken, it's only a definition for F3 cars, which are restricted to four stroke engines.


Yeah it's from F3 but could be wriiten into any formula of ICE powered motorsport. Forget the injection bit I just c&p'd verbatium the article section for source clarity.

The important bit is in the brackets, as currently competing 2 stroke are 'supercharged' by dynamic effects in the exhaust.
So a pass for them.

Now to the Ryger and the slipped comment on the 'valve plate' that Wob mentioned.
When I read the original comment the old brainbox wound into action and blurted out it must be supercharged on the induction side. If there is a valve between the volume under the piston and the ducts that supply the cylinder then we're in arena of 'mechanically assisted' supercharging. If i had a vested interest in the KZ2 class (and all the other CIK classes) I would be firmly lobbying CIK for that article section to be added to the tech rules.


For clarity.. Wob are you saying that with the 24/7 cylinder port open, the cylinder volume is connected to the atmo (thru the carb)?


As for HCCI in this engine, that's as hard to swallow as a red herring.
Although if Harry has raised the Thermal Efficiency to the level of half decent four stroke, then bravo.
Which brings me to the subject of a ferrous alloy piston.......

[husaberg]

Yeah it's from F3 but could be wriiten into any formula of ICE powered motorsport. Forget the injection bit I just c&p'd verbatium the article section for source clarity.

The important bit is in the brackets, as currently competing 2 stroke are 'supercharged' by dynamic effects in the exhaust.
So a pass for them.

.......

As are a lot of four strokes that why some have over 100% volumetric efficiency.
Don't get me wrong, the slower opening of the valves hamper the pulse wave formation compared to sharper opening ports but the shock wave postive and negative wave formation effects are still there and they are used to gain HP in induction and exhaust tuning on the four strokes since well before the 60's.
Frits or Wob can scold me latter if I used any wrong terms.:msn-wink:

[Dutch Fisher]

husaburg you refering to valve overlap ?

"since well before the 60's"

Before the 60's !!!!!

Valve overlap was patented by Percy Riley in 1903

Used to good effect in the 1912 Peugeot L76

[husaberg]

husaburg you refering to valve overlap ?

"since well before the 60's"

Before the 60's !!!!!

Valve overlap was patented by Percy Riley in 1903

Used to good effect in the 1912 Peugeot L76

I am referring to all methods of induction and exhaust tuning on a four stroke relating to shock wave effects.
I said before the 60's because that's when the two stroke really started to use these effects in a productive manner to enable them to produce more power output than an equivalent size four stroke.

[tjbw]

Quote " the volume of mixture transferred to the cylinder at BDC is no greater than the cylinder swept volume " .
WRONG.
I posted a few pages back answering a question about how much volume is going thru the transfer ducts into the cylinder.
There have been cases I have seen of a Delivery Ratio number of 1.3, this indicates 30% more volume is being inducted and deposited in the
cylinder than the numeric swept volume.
But as the scavenging and trapping efficiency are both less than unity, some of this ends up as pollution in the Ex duct - despite the stuffing
effect of the rear cone area contraction.

Quote " The pressure in cylinder at BDC is same as pressure under piston at TDC, so no supercharging."
WRONG AGAIN.
The pipe diffuser is pulling a huge depression on the Ex port at BDC, thus the pressure in the cylinder is LOWER than the case pressure or we would have no flow
due to no pressure ratio delta - we have pipe effect induced supercharging if you like.
Only lawnmowers use the case pressure to transfer A/F into the cylinder.
We are talking about 2 different scenarios, you're on the pipe with dynamic effects, whereas I exclude dynamic effects as I'm just trying to demonstrate that crankcase compression does not result in supercharging.

This is what I think, remember I'm excluding dynamic effects, we can assume no exhaust pipe present, and piston is moving slowly.

The key period in this is just before the exhaust port closes. The pressure at exhaust port and in cylinder is 1 bar, as exhaust is open to atmosphere.

If the crankcase compression ratio was raised from 1.3 to 1.8 it would give a faster transfer flow rate, it might get more fresh mixture into the cylinder, but no matter how much we try to increase transfer into the cylinder the excess just gets dumped out through the exhaust port because we can't get more than 1 bar in the cylinder whilst the exhaust port is open.

We could try a stepped supercharging piston, but it would push even more out the exhaust port. It's like trying to pump a bike tube that has a large hole, the air just comes out that hole!

Since we can't achieve pressure above 1 bar in cylinder at time of exhaust valve closure, even with a so called supercharging stepped piston, my conclusion is that there can be no supercharging via the crankcase.

Since we can't compress mixture in the cylinder before the exhaust port closes, if the exhaust period was 194 degrees, the corrected swept capacity of a 125cc engine would be about 62.5cc. You could argue that it would need nearly 2 bar in cylinder at time of exhaust port closure before it could be considered as supercharged!

Now if we think about dynamics, the best way to get increased pressure in the cylinder is of course to put a wobbly pipe on the exhaust port ;)

Another idea is to feed mixture via a check valve in the cylinder above the exhaust port, this was included in US Patent 2230308 by Ransome Olds (of Oldsmobile fame) in 1939. I'm not sure if a working prototype was ever built.

https://www.google.com/patents/US2230308?dq=r.e.+olds&hl=en&sa=X&ei=99LKUpqzOuLM2AW9ioCYCA&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBg

[Frits Overmars]

I said before the 60's because that's when the two stroke really started to use these effects in a productive manner to enable them to produce more power output than an equivalent
a double size four stroke.Fixed that for ya. And this doesn't even take the Ryger engine into account.


to keep the maths simple, if the exhaust period was 180 degrees, the corrected swept capacity of a 125cc engine would be 62.5cc.Only with an infinitely long con rod. A regular engine with an exhaust port height equal to half the stroke would have about 194° exhaust timing.

[tjbw]

Fixed that for ya. And this doesn't even take the Ryger engine into account.

Only with an infinitely long con rod. A regular engine with an exhaust port height equal to half the stroke would have about 194° exhaust timing.

Yes, thanks, 110mm rod.

[husaberg]

Fixed that for ya. And this doesn't even take the Ryger engine into account.
.

To be fair those pesky Hondas plus the MV's and Benellis held their own for a few more years well into the 60's and early 70's if only by virtue of throwing huge wads of cash and vast mechanical complexity at it.
Funny I was trying to come up with a formula based on the cylinder filling after the ex port shut on a two stroke, then doubling it on account the two stroke fires twice as often, result, Aprilia still kicked total four stroke butt.
I guessed the cylinder size after the ex port shut to tdc was about 25 mm so even with doubling the size made the RSW/RSA still only about 114cc :bleh:
Buckets I think have the formula pretty right at the moment with 100cc vs 150cc. I do like Kens Formula X litres vs Y laps anything goes though.

[Flettner]

Ok Ken, is this what you had in mind? Ryger test engine nearly ready to fire up:laugh:
Seriously though, I got this engine years ago to do combustion chamber testing just never did start on the project and now it's a garden feature for the good wife's garden ( she loves, really). Anyway the story goes that I was going to replace the head with a new one utilizing a small piston in the center (ish) of the chamber. This small piston was to run at three times the crank speed and timed to rapidly decend into the combustion chamber (which was now the small pistons cylinder, big piston had squeezed everything into it) at the right time for combustion. Diesel injector disconnected, fuel (petrol) through the intake via a carb. The idea was that normal compression of say ten to one by the big piston then as the big piston started to decend (like just over TDC) the small piston would come barrelling down the combustion chamber and change compression to twenty to one, ignition being garanteed, fuel being mixed much better than a diesel engine and combustion semi instant. I imagined that the top (small piston) end would have to be real robust and have a heavy flywheel on it's own cranksahft. I was going to tooth belt drive them together.
I was concerned about the load on the main crank system, hence the big old Bamford engine. But it never happened:no:
What relevance? Nothing at all to do with the ryger apart from the fact that the ryger engine achieves full combustion seemingly instatantly just after TDC. NOT in this manner but somehow an instant pressure change at the right time. Some kind of shock / pressure wave across the combustion chamber?
How did Harry find all this shit out??? Perhaps he didn't give up and put his test engine out in the garden like I did.

[tjbw]

To digress a little :-
Frits, does the Ryger need to have a plated (or hard) bore?

Nikasil seems to be quite popular

[WilDun]

Nikasil seems to be quite popular

Yes,the popular things are often only for trend followers, however in this case ....... I thought that might not be the case!.
I don't think the Ryger could be called 'trendy' :msn-wink:

[tjbw]

Yes,the popular things are often only for trend followers, however in this case ....... I thought that might not be the case!.
I don't think the Ryger could be called 'trendy' :msn-wink:

You're in for a surprise then.

[TZ350]

Page 1350 .....

With everyone talking up a storm speculating and guessing about the Ryger.

I thought we should celebrate the real work that has been done in back yard sheds with some useful links and interesting threads.


(Insert long sigh here) I hate, I hate to ask this, because I know I've seen the answer somewhere, questions about how to narrow down a KB search.

A thread with info about how to successfully find what you want on the Team ESE thread or any forum for that matter.


I was thinking this would be a good resource for everyone.

Lets everyone from around the country post up the lap record for there home track and who holds it. Other classes have them we should to.

Bucket Lap Records


I've been trying to collate a full list of NZ GP winners for a little while now.
It would be real cool if we can get a complete list together; so if you can add (or confirm winners, locations, conditions and even bikes) I'll amend the list.

GP Winners ... (my name appears three times in the list of GP podium finishers http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/155738-NZ-GP-Wall-of-Champions-(Please-help-complete-the-list)/page3)


After reading some of the content in the ESE thread, I've become really inspired to take a closer look at hydroforming chambers.

Designing and manufacturing of exhaust pipes


The foundry or metal casting stuff thats been going on the the ESE thread really inspired me to get on with having a go at this stuff. If you can cast metal theres really not much you cant do. I dont think its going to be easy, most of it has been a bit of 2 steps forward 1 step back so far.

The Bucket Foundry.


Me and Bert will keep you up to date here with our projects
here is my bike i'v started . pic's of the swing arm build coming 264532gpr 100 twin/tf100

Team GPR


After 17 years. #6 is dead. Long live #6.

Speedpros interesting 125 twin turbo build and 30hp MB100.


There seems to be a resurgence in the 50cc ranks so I thought I would post up how I am going about mine (and Johns ).

The 50 ... Cotswold's very successful F5 build.


So I picked up an old Kawasaki KE125 for $55, its an old dual purpose machine supposedly developing 13.5 Hp at 7500 rpm, figured it could be a reasonable platform for a bucket mainly because of the rotary disk valve inlet.

KE125 ... Kel's magic F4 race bike build.


Well I've paid my monies so I'm committed (or should be:shutup:). The plan is to resurrect my old 100 project that started 13 years ago.

A breif & depressing history;
At the time it was seriously ambitious & advanced for a bucket. The first RS transplant that I'm aware of (to be corrected I'm sure). People were starting to use RS forks & SW, so why not just run the whole thing? Procured a bike from T&E

F5 Daves's build.


Okay, so I was going to keep this quiet incase it turned into an epic fail, but i figured some of the jokers out there may find some interest into this.

I decided a while back that I quite like the idea of forced induction, I built a 250cc turbo bike as a bit of a laugh and it's great fun however not really suitable power for anything at all and as you could imagine trying to turbo a bike half the size wouldn't really work that well.

So the next option is supercharging.

Sketchy's supercharged project.


Between far to many other interests/passions, I'm a photographer and was part time freelancing for some years.
.
http://christophercain.cc/b/d/buckets-apr12/_MG_1725.jpg



Chris C's great collection of action photos.


A few of us have these systems now. I thought it might be useful to have a thread to swap information.

Ecotrons Engine Management.


Bucket of the Month - September 2015- Glens H100.


Bucket of the Month - May 2015 - Junkyard Dog

'Junkyard Dog' is the apt name that this classic mut has been adorned with.
A true 'bucket build' this is a bike created from the best parts that have come to hand.


Bucket of the Month - March 2015 - Peter's FXR

Peter managed to pick up a basic FXR with a few goodie bits.

It was somewhat tatty when he got hold of it but he's fixed that in short order.


Bucket of the Month - February 2015 - Ken's Mudbug.

Ken's Mudbug has seen a long and sometimes painful development path.
It started in an RG250 frame, once he out-ran this he rehoused it in an NSR MC18 Frame.
Good thing he's an engineer and all-round whizz-kid on the tools as he adapted VFR front forks and an R6 Rear shock to run in the frame that came without such essential components.


December's Bucket of the month is Nick's 'Kawasuki'.

It's a Kawasaki ZXR250 rolling frame with a Suzuki FXR150 engine to power it.

Nick purchased the bike as a complete bucket but it has evolved steadily over the time he has been racing.

[JanBros]

Does the wet crankcase prevent the cylinders pointing downwards?


Not more than on any radial four-stroke engine. In short: No.

that seems like a normal simple answer, but if one puts some thought in it ...

in a "right side up" engine, when the engine is not running, the oil is just sitting in the crankcase, and when it's running, the oil is splashed everywhere by the crank/big end.

if we put the engine in the "upside down" position, and the engine is not running, the oil is where ?

* if crankcase and cylinders are effectivle sealed from each other by a seal (that would need to be arround the conrod), the oil would be on top of the seal and it would be about 50-60cc as Frits said
-> that might not be enough oil to be high enough so that the big end can splash it up, but off course one could put more oil in it.
-> it would make it almost 100% certain that the conrod only goes up and down, I don't see any other way of making a seal arround a traditional moving conrod.

* if there is no seal between crankcase and conrod, the oil would sit on/in the piston
-> start the engine and the piston will splash it through the crankcase, that would be ok
-> the crankcase needs to be sealed from the top end in one way or another as no oil can get into the combustion chamber for emission reason's. if you stop the engine, the oil from the crankcase will flow down from the walls in the direction of the piston/cylinder. not all will go into the upside down piston, oil will also go between cylinder and piston.
--> if the piston has "rings that apparently do not touch the piston", how can you stop the oil from getting past the piston and into the combustion chamber if you leave the engine not-running long enough or even while running ? that would not be ok. unless there is an ordinairy oil-seal arround the bottom of the piston : no combustion can get to it so that would be ok, but can it survive 30.000 rpm ?

I have problem's with both options : conrod only up and down doesn't correspond with the KISS principle, and the other keeping the oil out of the combustion chamber, unless Frits didn't think long enough before he answered crbbt's question, but that would be so un-Frits-like :confused: http://emoticons4u.com/happy/046.gif

[JanBros]

Irrespective, I am starting to think that the Ryger system is a form of direct air inlet system, and just used the below piston volume for starting and possibly some small contribution to the dampening of the piston downward piston inertia forces. The routing of the passages etc being necessary to route all the ingested air to pass thru the obligatory 30 carb.


but the 24/7 principle only works when the pipe is doing all the work. the Ryger makes it's max power only at 17.500 rpm. even with a very wide-range pipe, over how many rev's could it work ? even if it has a 10.000rpm range, you'd still need to get the engine to rev upto 7.500 before the pipe can make the engine sing and make it usable for kart-racing. drop below 7.500 during a race and you are standing still. and using the clutch to get going again, how many 7.500 rpm starts would the clutch survive ?

[Peiter]

janBros,

After scanning through the patent, I think it mentioned somewhere that the small end wrist pin was plugged. My guess is the that these plugs are so neat with the steppes piston its surface that the small end is actually able to travel up and down through the 'valve plate' seal. Then a slightly longer skirt on the stepped piston would be enough to seal the bottom end at all times from the top.

[WilDun]

You're in for a surprise then.

I won't be surprised, as I'm pretty sure it will be trendy for a time! - of course discussing it is very trendy at the moment and when it all comes out there will be a great rush of people wanting to try it, then it will all find its own level as the excitement dies down. So it will be added to the long list of two stroke developments over time, but again, it could bring the two strokes back (hopefully in the general sense, ie. not just in competition).
All subject to electric motor technology and turbine developments replacing piston engines and gearboxes I reckon!

But, as always, I could be wrong! :rolleyes:

[d2t]

If anyone doesn't already know, there are places on the internet to see the complete published patent with all of the diagrams mentioned in the summary but I'll leave that for the crafty searchers. In retrospect, maybe I should've withheld posting any details a while for people to keep speculating as it was very entertaining to read some of the ideas here and gave me some serious contemplation on possibilities. Still, as Frits mentioned, there is a newer patent that is still pending so I wonder what mysteries it holds. Obviously, something substantial for it to reach such a high level of development regarding it's performance. All in due time I suppose.

As some of you may have noticed from the old patent, there are actually two variations of the valve spacer. One has tiny curved reeds around the bore, the other uses cams to vary the timing/valving of the incoming and outgoing charge. Of course, I don't know if fruitful development continued on both designs but I can only imagine the force driving the cams in the latter. There could possibly be several ways just as there are for exhaust valve technologies.

Also I don't know if it's been mentioned but does the Ryger still run premix maybe at a very low ratio? What keeps the parts lubricated outside of the sealed crankcase? Maybe that's what the piston ring holes are for? The patent makes no mention of ring type but I see it's a double set both at the upper and lower end of the piston.

Lastly, I still don't understand the 30K RPM claim. From my understanding, the principal change is from crankcase compression to under-piston compression. Although this allows for a sealed crankcase, there is still a lot of momentum in the piston (and also friction considering there's four rings). These may be all things that are still secret within the new design or just not called-out in the original patent publication. Maybe the original patent is nothing like the new design. Either way, sorry if I spoiled anyone's fun by sharing it. I'm sure there are still many mysteries to be revealed. Best wishes to "Mr. Ryger", Frits, or anyone else on the inside loop regarding development.
:rockon:

[tjbw]

I won't be surprised, as I'm pretty sure it will be trendy for a time! - of course discussing it is very trendy at the moment and when it all comes out there will be a great rush of people wanting to try it, then it will all find its own level as the excitement dies down. So it will be added to the long list of two stroke developments over time, but again, it could bring the two strokes back (hopefully in the general sense, ie. not just in competition).
All subject to electric motor technology and turbine developments replacing piston engines and gearboxes I reckon!

But, as always, I could be wrong! :rolleyes:

The Ryger KZ engine uses Nicasil.

[ken seeber]

Ryger. Big picture thoughts.

If the engine has better fuel consumption and lower emissions, there are 3 things that could be fundamentally occurring, simultaneously or not:

1. That there is a mechanical or gas dynamic effect going on such that there is less fuel being (permanently) lost out the exhaust port.
2. That the combustion efficiency is so much better, such that even though a percentage of the fuel is lost out the exhaust, the greater thermal efficiency of combustion offsets this. This therefore leading to an improved BSFC, brake specific fuel consumption, which may be in the order of 280 gm/kW hr. Would just love to know this, even from the RSA would be good.
3. The friction levels have been reduced. I think Harry somewhere said “don’t let the ring touch the piston”. This gets the mind going as to all sorts of scenarios. Maybe the ring doesn’t do so much sliding = less friction? Maybe the ring isn’t a conventional ring and acts as a valve or initiates some valving function? Dunno. Remember that with a 90 rod, this will add to the friction compared to a 110 rod.

As to oil causing emissions. I am a bit of a non-believer of this. I agree that unburnt oil will cause smoke. I think I am pretty right in saying that, on a karting racetrack, there is tons of smoke during the roll up laps when the engine is well off tuned speed combined with shit carbs, leading to oil (and fuel) being dumped into the exhaust and accumulating in the crankcase and passages. This gives rise to both smoke and unburnt fuel, you can certainly smell this at the back of the pack. Then the race starts. Blue smoke everywhere. Then the race settles down, everyone’s going for it, and the smoke level virtually disappears. We’re still burning the oil, but no smoke. Ditto with GP bikes. Buckets?

The point is that if you see blue smoke, you are also seeing (but not seeing) the invisible unburnt fuel, coming out as unburnt hydrocarbons. Not good for the emission count nor the lungs. However, by disconnecting the lubrication of the lower end from the ingested or fuel, prevents smoke, but doesn’t necessarily reduce emissions. It must help though in reducing the areas where the fuel can hang up under off load conditions and then be subsequently released, as described above. Another way of saying this is that even if one ran a 20:1 fuel oil mix through the carb of the Ryger, it wouldn’t smoke nearly as bad as a conventional crank scavenged engine.

Back to part of the story. If there is less fuel being lost out the exhaust, then, for example, this could be achieved with fuel injection. However with no injection and the apparently standard exhaust & transfer port arrangement (Frits) when viewed from above @ BDC, then there must be something else going on, power for power. For me, there are two scenarios possibly going on, possibly overlapping:

a. That the fuel mix entry into the cylinder is lead by either air or combusted mixture (from the previous cycle). So, this can be lost to the exhaust with reduced emissions and improved fuel consumption.
b. That the fuel mix entry into the cylinder somehow occurs later in the transfer port open duration, thereby reducing the loss out the exhaust port.

Better go and do some (real) work.

[WilDun]

The Ryger KZ engine uses Nicasil.

Thanks, that was really all I was asking, ( but do you actually know that it's Nikasil and if so, is it actually necessary?) - to me it was a key question and the answer could tell me heaps!
:)

[tjbw]

If anyone doesn't already know, there are places on the internet to see the complete published patent with all of the diagrams mentioned in the summary but I'll leave that for the crafty searchers. In retrospect, maybe I should've withheld posting any details a while for people to keep speculating as it was very entertaining to read some of the ideas here and gave me some serious contemplation on possibilities. Still, as Frits mentioned, there is a newer patent that is still pending so I wonder what mysteries it holds. Obviously, something substantial for it to reach such a high level of development regarding it's performance. All in due time I suppose.

As some of you may have noticed from the old patent, there are actually two variations of the valve spacer. One has tiny curved reeds around the bore, the other uses cams to vary the timing/valving of the incoming and outgoing charge. Of course, I don't know if fruitful development continued on both designs but I can only imagine the force driving the cams in the latter. There could possibly be several ways just as there are for exhaust valve technologies.

Also I don't know if it's been mentioned but does the Ryger still run premix maybe at a very low ratio? What keeps the parts lubricated outside of the sealed crankcase? Maybe that's what the piston ring holes are for? The patent makes no mention of ring type but I see it's a double set both at the upper and lower end of the piston.

Lastly, I still don't understand the 30K RPM claim. From my understanding, the principal change is from crankcase compression to under-piston compression. Although this allows for a sealed crankcase, there is still a lot of momentum in the piston (and also friction considering there's four rings). These may be all things that are still secret within the new design or just not called-out in the original patent publication. Maybe the original patent is nothing like the new design. Either way, sorry if I spoiled anyone's fun by sharing it. I'm sure there are still many mysteries to be revealed. Best wishes to "Mr. Ryger", Frits, or anyone else on the inside loop regarding development.
:rockon:

It's not "the .. patent" but an old patent as you say later, and it does not include the key to build a 70hp 125cc engine.

However I think the next patent will include claims for the input porting, including input to cylinder.

A cam to move cylinder relative to the piston could be used in addition to the valve plate, but I'd bet there is no such cam on the Ryger KZ engine.

Regarding the rings, how about one at the top of the piston, and none at the other end?

The little holes in the piston are for oil.

The 30k rpm is great for publicity, but wouldn't you want to limit revs, just in case?

I wonder how many red herrings we've had, HCCI, something about piston doesn't touch ring?

I think for 2017 CIK will have to introduce a new class just for the more powerful engines.

[tjbw]

Thanks, that was really all I was asking, ( but do you actually know that it's Nikasil and if so, is it actually necessary?) - to me it was a key question and the answer could tell me heaps!
:)

Why would they spend money on Nikasil if they didn't see some gain?

These was some discussion on Nikasil on the pitlane forum which may interest you.

[WilDun]

Why would they spend money on Nikasil if they didn't see some gain?

These was some discussion on Nikasil on the pitlane forum which may interest you.

Are they still using Nikasil (or whatever) on the latest iteration of the Ryger?

[tjbw]

Ryger. Big picture thoughts.

If the engine has better fuel consumption and lower emissions, there are 3 things that could be fundamentally occurring, simultaneously or not:

1. That there is a mechanical or gas dynamic effect going on such that there is less fuel being (permanently) lost out the exhaust port.
2. That the combustion efficiency is so much better, such that even though a percentage of the fuel is lost out the exhaust, the greater thermal efficiency of combustion offsets this. This therefore leading to an improved BSFC, brake specific fuel consumption, which may be in the order of 280 gm/kW hr. Would just love to know this, even from the RSA would be good.
3. The friction levels have been reduced. I think Harry somewhere said “don’t let the ring touch the piston”. This gets the mind going as to all sorts of scenarios. Maybe the ring doesn’t do so much sliding = less friction? Maybe the ring isn’t a conventional ring and acts as a valve or initiates some valving function? Dunno. Remember that with a 90 rod, this will add to the friction compared to a 110 rod.

As to oil causing emissions. I am a bit of a non-believer of this. I agree that unburnt oil will cause smoke. I think I am pretty right in saying that, on a karting racetrack, there is tons of smoke during the roll up laps when the engine is well off tuned speed combined with shit carbs, leading to oil (and fuel) being dumped into the exhaust and accumulating in the crankcase and passages. This gives rise to both smoke and unburnt fuel, you can certainly smell this at the back of the pack. Then the race starts. Blue smoke everywhere. Then the race settles down, everyone’s going for it, and the smoke level virtually disappears. We’re still burning the oil, but no smoke. Ditto with GP bikes. Buckets?

The point is that if you see blue smoke, you are also seeing (but not seeing) the invisible unburnt fuel, coming out as unburnt hydrocarbons. Not good for the emission count nor the lungs. However, by disconnecting the lubrication of the lower end from the ingested or fuel, prevents smoke, but doesn’t necessarily reduce emissions. It must help though in reducing the areas where the fuel can hang up under off load conditions and then be subsequently released, as described above. Another way of saying this is that even if one ran a 20:1 fuel oil mix through the carb of the Ryger, it wouldn’t smoke nearly as bad as a conventional crank scavenged engine.

Back to part of the story. If there is less fuel being lost out the exhaust, then, for example, this could be achieved with fuel injection. However with no injection and the apparently standard exhaust & transfer port arrangement (Frits) when viewed from above @ BDC, then there must be something else going on, power for power. For me, there are two scenarios possibly going on, possibly overlapping:

a. That the fuel mix entry into the cylinder is lead by either air or combusted mixture (from the previous cycle). So, this can be lost to the exhaust with reduced emissions and improved fuel consumption.
b. That the fuel mix entry into the cylinder somehow occurs later in the transfer port open duration, thereby reducing the loss out the exhaust port.

Better go and do some (real) work.

Keeping the oil isolated in the crankcase, and no need to premix with the fuel is a big help.

I'd really love to see a Ryger design that wasn't constrained by CIK competition regulations.

They already have some expertise in the team for direct fuel injection and power valve.

[tjbw]

Are they still using Nikasil (or whatever) on the latest iteration of the Ryger?

The Ryger KZ engine uses Nikasil.

I wouldn't expect Ryger to spend any money on developing an alternative to Nikasil.

They need to reap the benefit of what they have already.

[WilDun]

The Ryger KZ engine uses Nikasil.
I wouldn't expect Ryger to spend any money on developing an alternative to Nikasil.

Nor would I!