ESE's works engine tuner

[Frits Overmars]

Hello Frits, I dug out an old laptop & guess what, it will run your Flywheel Zip file. WooHooooTold you so. All programs will run with DOS 6.2 through to Windows 98SE; some will run from DOS 5 through to Windows 10.
FLYWHEEL.EXE will run directly under Windows 7, no emulation required
Question - Velocity at maximum rpm. Would you explain this please.I tried to make the program self-explanatory:
318937
The program needs to know the total transmission ratio from crankshaft to flywheel, so starting from the maximum crankshaft rpm it can calculate the maximum flywheel rpm. But in case this transmission ratio is unknown to you, the program offers you a second way of answering the question: it asks you to enter the riding velocity at max. crankshaft rpm. The circumferential flywheel velocity will be equal to this riding velocity and as soon as a value for the flywheel diameter is chosen, the program has all the information it needs.

[RAW]

Told you so. All programs will run with DOS 6.2 through to Windows 98SE; some will run from DOS 5 through to Windows 10.I tried to make the program self-explanatory:
318937
The program needs to know the total transmission ratio from crankshaft to flywheel, so starting from the maximum crankshaft rpm it can calculate the maximum flywheel rpm. But in case this transmission ratio is unknown to you, the program offers you a second way of answering the question: it asks you to enter the riding velocity at max. crankshaft rpm. The circumferential flywheel velocity will be equal to this riding velocity and as soon as a value for the flywheel diameter is chosen, the program has all the information it needs.

Thank you Frits
The value velocity, what is this in, feet per second as an example.
Actually all the values are in what format, HP, is etc
Run time, seconds as such, I've just guessed to explore.
Thanks in advance

[Frits Overmars]

The value velocity, what is this in, feet per second as an example. Actually all the values are in what format, HP, is etc Run time, seconds as such, I've just guessed to explore.I must admit that your question is somewhat justified. You may have guessed that I will not lower myself to using the furlong-fortnight-hundredweight system (which some people keep calling imperial, even though Great Britain and the USA have committed themselves to the worldwide meter-kilogram-second standard).
So to be consequent the program should expect a velocity input in meters per second. But that is still one step too far for most people, so the program assumes kilometers per hour.
By the way, if you press the Repeat key in the program and then re-answer the transmission ratio question by entering a zero, you will get a survey of all the units used.
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Now for the power. Most people are still hooked on horsepower even though we should all be using kiloWatts by now, so the program assumes HP.
But there are other options that you can control by the way you call the program.

FLYWHEEL.EXE assumes horsePower

FLYWHEEL.EXE P : ditto

FLYWHEEL.EXE K assumes kiloWatts

FLYWHEEL.EXE W assumes Watts (in case you are working with really small engines or if you are a really bad tuner).

318939

[SwePatrick]

Is there any guys with experience in tillotsontuning in here?

I have reached 27.14hp with my keihin 27mm roundthrottle.
And I´m curious if this PCR slide carb will take me further:

https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/12553105_10153579805464475_8704265009826074704_n.j pg?oh=2e4606189431db9dc02e0cc293df93f7&oe=57343E49

But as it is 29mm big it seems to lose either pumpsignal or loss of airspeed.
Can´t get it to run on full throttle if I tune the idle perfect in AFR
There a HUGE gap, can´t give it full throttle until AFTER 10000rpm.
Then it screams ;)
If I´m turning out the highspeed nozzle to get it to answer earlier it runs rich as a pig at 12000rpm and upwards.
If i´m turning out the lowspeed nozzle it idles really really rough and I need to raise idle to about 6000rpm to get it to run at all.
But then it answers, taking full throttle all the way to 14000rpm.
Engine is 68cc big ;)

Would a powerjet fix this?
Problem I would say is to much flow in carb, so it stalls.

[jfn2]

A few years ago I talked to Brian Callahan when he was building a dyno for testing small motors and he sent me a excel spreadsheet that worked really well in figuring out ineria weights for different materials. If you got a hold of him he might send you acopy if he still has it. In fact I need another copy myself, if your out there Brian.

[SwePatrick]

Jfn2, try this site:

http://www.dtec.net.au/Downloads.htm

[bjorn.clauw.1]

Told you so. All programs will run with DOS 6.2 through to Windows 98SE; some will run from DOS 5 through to Windows 10.


I just run it on my smartphone ;)
318940

Frits, is there a place/site where we can find your programs in one location?


Makr, thanks for sharing all this information! Did you try 2618 for the outer shell of the piston? The design is really sound and well thought off. Do you think opening the dome of the outer shell and letting the inner part fill this hole could help the loosening? (Will post a drawing in a minute). So the inner part also heats up directly from combustion gasses so both threaded parts heat up at the same ratio. Maybe also thread at (A).
Do you happen to have a pic from the inside of the inner piece?

[wobbly]

Pumper carbs are alot more complex than you would think.
The 3 main tuning variables are pop off pressure, diaphragm lever height, and needle positions.
What are these variables at the moment - if you dont know, and or cant change all these,then you cant tune one.
If you can tune the top end OK with the H needle, but need the L out too far to get response off idle then you need to drop
the pop off a couple of psi.
This will then allow much less L needle but still be rich enough to accelerate off idle.
But then the H needle will need to go in some to lean off the top end.

The other issue I can see is PVL.
What is the stator coil resistance - as most of these ignitions are useless on a racing 2T as they have almost no retard at all.
If its 50 ohms you have a straight line ignition off a KZ2, useless - if its 200 ohms then you have around 7* retard, still useless.

[Frits Overmars]

I just run it on my smartphone ;)
318940Great! Can you tell us how you di dit?

Frits, is there a place/site where we can find your programs in one location?I just tried to upload the lot in a zip-file but probably it was too big (3,5 MB).

[bjorn.clauw.1]

Great! Can you tell us how you di dit?
I just tried to upload the lot in a zip-file but probably it was too big (3,5 MB).

Hello Frits, just look for 'aFreebox' in the android playstore. Is a port of latest dosbox.
Should be working with your graphic functions also. If you need more info just let me know.
If you like I can host your files on my server.

[RAW]

A diaphragm fuel pump
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130927084#post1130927084
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130930915#post1130930915
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Wobbly, the power jet on the Keihin ? Is that an on / off or a pulsed type pj

[speedpro]

If its 50 ohms you have a straight line ignition off a KZ2, useless - if its 200 ohms then you have around 7* retard, still useless.

Wobbly - telling it like it is since ages ago

[2T Institute]

There is Elmirage dry lake bed in California, and that is maybe the future for me. There are some events run on air strips, but they are about the same time as salt events.

The reason those records on the salt flats are so cherished is you have one tiny window of opportunity and everything has to go perfect. It very rarely does...


Ain't that the truth,in Australia we don't see as high speeds as Wendover or El Mirage as Lake Gardiner is actually at sea level. The high baro and 45+ deg temps makes the air "thick" and "sticky".
Its like drag racing in all looks easy on tv but a lot more difficult when your out there.

[wobbly]

The Keihin that came off the Honda RS125/250 has a PJ solenoid with a Viton tip.
It is the same as was used by the later Aprilia - it had pwm control,the Honda just used an on/off from the ECU.
The part is the same as is used I believe in a Fiat Uno and several other carbs as an idle air controller.

And re the PVL ignitions.
The analogue black box stator and coils are used by the thousand in KZ2 kart engines, so most are a straight line as mandated by the CIK.
Other stators have higher resistance ie more,thinner wire, and this gives a little more retard curve with no electronics involved.
You can buy stators for a Banshee that have the max amount of wire in the coils, so they will start with only minimal kickstart turns.
These are cloth covered coils ( called 5000 wind ), but even they only retard about 10* from 2000 to 10,000 - again pretty useless compared to the amounts of retard
and the curve shape we use now in a cheap Ignitech setup.
PVL make digital, red coils,and there are a few good versions of these, but 15 years ago you paid E500 to have one programmed for you - yea right,no thanks.

[pugs]

Some news about Ryger from Luc's FB
318961

[MotleyCrue]

Some news about Ryger from Luc's FB
318961

Will be interesting to see if the kart version is the 56-58 HP version or the 70 HP version. Guessing the former. Maybe those that know are free to confirm one way or another ?

[tjbw]

Will be interesting to see if the kart version is the 56-58 HP version or the 70 HP version. Guessing the former. Maybe those that know are free to confirm one way or another ?

Where did they announce 56-58 HP version?

[MotleyCrue]

Where did they announce 56-58 HP version?

That was the power of the clean fuel efficient Ryger engine a couple years ago before the unanticipated discovery of how to make 70 HP with it. No other engine mfg. is going to make 70 HP, so unless the Ryger makes 56-58 HP (and saves the 70 HP for another day) why would the other engine mfgs. even bother with it all. Its possible the 70 HP version still needs some R&D before release for mass public consumption.

[wobbly]

I have just this moment checked the CIK homologation area on the website.
None of the papers have been posted yet, including the 13 pages of Ryger we all want to see.
The NZ Kartsport Admin Manager has just sent a request to the CIK asking for confirmation of when this will happen.
As I believe all the 50 Rygers that had to be presented to the CIK for the homologation process have all been presold,no one
can race one until they can present the full papers to the Tech Officers after the meeting.

The best I can do with a KZ10B TM125 kart engine is 48.3 Hp at the sprocket - and the power curve is good enough to blitz genuine
TecSav leased World Cup winning engines.
If the Ryger has 58 in CIK form, then no one stands a chance.

[nick gill]

Ok Frits. Patent is in. Spill the beans.... :blip:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1610/24404933001_239fcf6737_z.jpg

[seymour14]

I have just this moment checked the CIK homologation area on the website.
None of the papers have been posted yet, including the 13 pages of Ryger we all want to see.
The NZ Kartsport Admin Manager has just sent a request to the CIK asking for confirmation of when this will happen.
As I believe all the 50 Rygers that had to be presented to the CIK for the homologation process have all been presold,no one
can race one until they can present the full papers to the Tech Officers after the meeting.

The best I can do with a KZ10B TM125 kart engine is 48.3 Hp at the sprocket - and the power curve is good enough to blitz genuine
TecSav leased World Cup winning engines.
If the Ryger has 58 in CIK form, then no one stands a chance.

You do realize the word blitz means to thrash convincingly any other competitor?

I think the words you need are "compete well against"...;)

[nick gill]

Thank you. The inside is 6061 and the outside is 2024.

I have made them out of a bunch of different alloys. You know, just to see.haha!

These were 7068, I think. They didn't last one hard pull.

Very interesting results and it's great to see someone's had a go and succeeded.
I deduced and have had confirmed that Woessner are using Alloy 2618, and Flettner can probably confirm it's used in the aero industry too.
I tried to buy some last year but it is cheaper to buy an entire length than a small piece or two, and shipping to NZ from UK supplier was too much $ so I commissioned Woessner.

Have you approximated the barrel and ovality in your machining? They are Milled and not turned on something like the Integrex (https://www.mazakusa.com/machines/integrex-i-100/)?

Thank you for sharing !!!!

[Larry Wiechman]

https://i.imgur.com/2jsfax6.jpg

[wobbly]

Interesting view of relative performance.
In Europe or World Cup racing for KZ2 the top 3 places in qualifying are separated regularly by less than 1/10 of a second.
In 20013 and 2014 we won the Nationals going away by at least the length of the main straight against a TecSav leased engine.
In 2015 we qualified close to 4/10 fastest ( at the PN track by the way ),then a team member left undone a radiator hose clip,thus the engine all but fried with no water,
and was way slow afterward due to no ring tension.
We finished second by about 5 kart lengths after 25 laps ( starting off the back ) and still broke the lap record for KZ2.
Is that close to a blitz?

[seymour14]

Interesting view of relative performance.
In Europe or World Cup racing for KZ2 the top 3 places in qualifying are separated regularly by less than 1/10 of a second.
In 20013 and 2014 we won the Nationals going away by at least the length of the main straight against a TecSav leased engine.
In 2015 we qualified close to 4/10 fastest ( at the PN track by the way ),then a team member left undone a radiator hose clip,thus the engine all but fried with no water,
and was way slow afterward due to no ring tension.
We finished second by about 5 kart lengths after 25 laps ( starting off the back ) and still broke the lap record for KZ2.
Is that close to a blitz?

In 1999 we won our first sidecar title by half the length of the main straight at Taupo, that was a close finish after 20 (or it may have been 30 laps), the lead changed 2 to 3 times every lap until 2 laps to go. A mistake on our part in a corner or a partial breakdown or loss of power would have spelt disaster, things happen so fast on a track.

The next year in the wet we lapped every other rider, that was a blitz.

Nathaniel Diprose tends to win his races by up to a lap if he does not have a problem, I consider he blitzs his rivals at the moment.

No, I don't consider the wins you describe as a blitz.

[tjbw]

Let's start with some crumbs to wet your appetite.
318966 318968 318965 318967

Thanks Frits, but I'm starving, need more crumbs please ;)

[Muciek]

It looks like it doesn't need state of art ducts :eek5: Cannot wait for more ;)

[nick gill]

Let's start with some crumbs to wet your appetite.

It's witchcraft I tell you !
Seriously though, thank you for sharing Frits, we all appreciate the advanced showcase here

[Flettner]

It's witchcraft I tell you !
Seriously though, thank you for sharing Frits, we all appreciate the advanced showcase here

Yes thank you Frits.

[2005bully]

Yes... thanks Frits.......... Any crumbs are great!!!! The next few weeks on KB should be VERY interesting!!!!! Kermit Buller

[Grumph]

Let's start with some crumbs to wet your appetite.

Thanks Frits - well now at least i know i'm not knocking one up any time soon.....

[speedpro]

Is that close to a blitz?

Considering how crowded the pointy end of kart classes are, probably.

Me and Jim lapped 3rd place at a Taupo GP and me and Ziffle lapped 3rd place at the Wigram GP. Probably a blitz as well but there was a certain lack of competition. Top level kart racing does not lack competition. Jim has won a few Ohakea GPs. He would have blitzed everybody but would have been well within striking distance of a number of riders at the end. He still bitzed everybody and I doubt anybody who was there would disagree.

[Lef16]

F* yes!That made my day...or my night...whatever :P
Dank u zeer Fritz!Can't wait for more information and for the homologation paper!

[41juergen]

I visited an international karting exhibition last Saturday in Offenbach (close to Frankfurt am Main), may be the biggest in Germany. However I didn't found the Ryger engine on any booth (as were rumors in a karting forum). So I talked to a guy from a German karting magazine and he recommend to talk to the engineers from TM. So I went to the booth and as soon I used the word "Ryger" he totally got mad. He claimed that rumors as "bull shit" asked me to leave the booth... :rolleyes: So I visited the Modena booth and even there they only had heard about something, but were not aware of any power numbers. Than finally I talked to a Belgium guy from "Dino Karts" (first name also Juergen, but forgot his last name, but he knows you Frits....) and he confirmed that he has seen the engine and was present at a test somebody did in the Neatherlands...
I would believe that since now some engineers in Italy start to think....:bleh:

[wobbly]

So Seymour the guys you raced against had access to World Championship winning engines,and chassis , in a class where the most important components in a 2T
that is the pipe, the carb and the ignition are all Homologated and cant be touched.
IMHO,breaking the lap record and out qualifying by 4/10s the absolute best 125 kart engine in the world ( that you cant buy,only lease for idiot amounts of Euro ) and driven
by a European factory team driver amounts to complete annihilation.
So OK not even close to a blitz.
But would be interesting to watch you dick Biland in a LCR Krauser.

[seymour14]

So Seymour the guys you raced against had access to World Championship winning engines,and chassis , in a class where the most important components in a 2T
that is the pipe, the carb and the ignition are all Homologated and cant be touched.
IMHO,breaking the lap record and out qualifying by 4/10s the absolute best 125 kart engine in the world ( that you cant buy,only lease for idiot amounts of Euro ) and driven
by a European factory team driver amounts to complete annihilation.
So OK not even close to a blitz.
But would be interesting to watch you dick Biland in a LCR Krauser.

I see this is making you angry again now...

Only saying that if your guy was picking up .1 of a second per lap, that does not equate to a blitzing. The National champs we were racing against fought tooth and nail, and I suspect they made one mistake on the second to last lap which sealed the race. Based on the fact we won by two or three seconds that would equate to a blitz in your world. Believe me, it felt nothing like a blitzing...

But talk it up bro, I know it helps with business.;)

[d2t]

Let's not get crazy. This is probably my favorite thread ever. There's so much great info here! So many great projects! ...and now to top it off, Ryger debut? Keep things positive.
http://i.imgur.com/eScbSVO.gif

[husaberg]

Let's start with some crumbs to wet your appetite.

The plunger (For want of a better word)is a lot wider than we envisaged.

[seymour14]

Let's not get crazy. This is probably my favorite thread ever. There's so much great info here! So many great projects! ...and now to top it off, Ryger debut? Keep things positive.
http://i.imgur.com/eScbSVO.gif

Exactly, can't wait to see that in action, patience is a virtue.:2thumbsup

[Larry Wiechman]

I see auxiliary exhaust ports. Didn't the CIK papers say only one exhaust port?

[husaberg]

I see auxiliary exhaust ports. Didn't the CIK papers say only one exhaust port?

That's the bottom of the Cylinder Larry........I don't see any Aux ex ports (but I might have that wrong)
I only see one and a lot of transfers
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=318967&d=1453240236

[2005bully]

I see auxiliary exhaust ports. Didn't the CIK papers say only one exhaust port?

The picture is not real clear but could swear I see auxiliary ex ports also. Just as suprising is a lack of evidence that any valves exist in the "valve plate"......... Kermit Buller

[husaberg]

I see auxiliary exhaust ports. Didn't the CIK papers say only one exhaust port?


That's the bottom of the Cylinder Larry........I don't see any Aux ex ports (but I might have that wrong)
I only see one and a lot of transfers
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=318967&d=1453240236


The picture is not real clear but could swear I see auxiliary ex ports also. Just as suprising is a lack of evidence that any valves exist in the "valve plate"......... Kermit Buller

I went back changed the contrast on the pic and yeah not so sure...........A shadow or well I have no idea?

[Yow Ling]

I went back changed the contrast on the pic and yeah not so sure...........A shadow or well I have no idea?
318990

Is it an aux exhaust port , or a port to tap off exhaust for reuse/hcci purpose as it seems to be above the bridged exhaust port

[Yow Ling]

Frits, is this the homologation engine or an early development engine ? are they the same ?

[ken seeber]

Clearly we are looking at parts that don't necessarily all come from or go into the same engine.
I think the auxiliary ports either side of the main exh port aren't exhaust ports (the doccos we have seen indicate one exh port only), but some form of blowdown ports. There is lots of energy in the exhaust to do something with. Remember the 30:30:30 rule. There could be 60 hp (45kW)or so to provide some charging function as an alternative to using a tuned pipe, or possibly both together. I reckon a 60 hp supercharger (not that it is) would have to be very useful in increasing the power of a 125.
The Ryger could be the way to harness it.
OK Frits, we're thankful for the first feed of breadcrumbs, and they tasted good, so looking forward to the next snack. :drool:

[Larry Wiechman]

The port that comes down from the reed cavity to the base gasket surface appears to almost dead end at the base plate. The open area cross section would only be the thickness of the base gasket.
Clever how the cylinder pilots on the base plate to ensure concentricity.

[wobbly]

Ok, I will calm down and not get angry.
The point I was making was we could beat the best in the world, if you raced Biland in his LCR Krauser what do you think would happen after 20 laps
around Taupo - wet or dry.
And I dont want or need the " business ",I post on here to pass on 2T knowledge very few people have.

[tjbw]

...

And I dont want or need the " business ",I post on here to pass on 2T knowledge very few people have.

We appreciate that Wobbly, the more we learn the more we realise how little we know, thanks.

[seymour14]

Ok, I will calm down and not get angry.
The point I was making was we could beat the best in the world, if you raced Biland in his LCR Krauser what do you think would happen after 20 laps
around Taupo - wet or dry.
And I dont want or need the " business ",I post on here to pass on 2T knowledge very few people have.

I would get my arse kicked like most of the people on the planet would be.

But boy would I send him packing with his head between his legs in a game of table tennis...;)

[tjbw]

Frits, is this the homologation engine or an early development engine ? are they the same ?

I think it could be an early development engine, the front studs look longer than required. However regarding the ports, the homologation document will include a drawing showing position of these.

[jasonu]

I went back changed the contrast on the pic and yeah not so sure...........A shadow or well I have no idea?
318990

and about a cm to the left of the yellow circle looks to be the other end of the duct you mention.

[F5 Dave]

Let's start with some crumbs to wet your appetite.
318966 318968 318965 318967
So, a heavy but solid topped looking piston. That fits in a tube for linear motion. A ridiculous amount of inlet area. Conventional transfer area but with sharp holes on the inners.
My brain hurts.

[jonny quest]

The spacer plate is a consumable like the piston.

[mr bucketracer]

https://i.imgur.com/2jsfax6.jpgnice picture of a german built vril 1

[Grumph]

So, a heavy but solid topped looking piston. That fits in a tube for linear motion. A ridiculous amount of inlet area. Conventional transfer area but with sharp holes on the inners.
My brain hurts.

It almost looks like a return to the origins of the 2 stroke where the piston was assumed to do all the pumping work. Still trying to visualise whether the under piston pumping setup is more efficient than the usual crankcase volume. Certainly plenty of transfer volume to provide mixture and as dave notes, it's provided with plenty of inlet area too. If it's a more efficient pump, it may not need the usual triple exhaust to generate flow...
At least we can now see why it's a short rod. I'd been assuming a trunk piston as it does seem to be a wet bottom end, well it is and it isn't a trunk piston..

[Flettner]

and about a cm to the left of the yellow circle looks to be the other end of the duct you mention.

Certainly looks like an exhaust eye port. Either Ryger is wrong about one exhaust port, or, its one of the 11 transfers talked about. Assuming there is another one also on the other side of the main exhaust port.

Come on, whats the harm, it's all tied up now so just get that can opener out.

[husaberg]

It almost looks like a return to the origins of the 2 stroke where the piston was assumed to do all the pumping work. Still trying to visualise whether the under piston pumping setup is more efficient than the usual crankcase volume. Certainly plenty of transfer volume to provide mixture and as dave notes, it's provided with plenty of inlet area too. If it's a more efficient pump, it may not need the usual triple exhaust to generate flow...
At least we can now see why it's a short rod. I'd been assuming a trunk piston as it does seem to be a wet bottom end, well it is and it isn't a trunk piston..

With regards to the crankcase vs pump It might not be more efficient in BMEP terms but I muse it will allow very fast blowdown via pressure differential. Rather than duration vs time area. I would muse a Std triple is nothing much to do with better flow really at all, more to do with making the best of a bad situation. (best Compromise in a std design)

[Lightbulb]

It only has a single exhaust port. There is just a reflection in the bore from the opposite transfer port to make it look like a port.
The reed block and the crank assemble looks to be the best parts yet to be revealed. I want to see what keeps it all together at 30K
Neil

[wobbly]

And as I have said a dozen times on here, its only in lawnmowers that the dropping piston has anything to do with promoting flow
from the conventional case - thru the transfers,as there is more pressure above than there is below the piston at TPO.
The Ryger is using a very small trapped volume, that is compressed substantially by the larger diameter piston portion.
Thus it simply doesnt need a ton of blowdown to reduce the combustion pressure above the transfers, and as well it doesnt need the big negative pressure
ratio created by the diffuser to pull mixture into the cylinder when the piston is at BDC.
So a single Ex port seems entirely reasonable and expected.
The top end workings I believe we have pretty much guessed the trickery, as for the 30,000 rpm capable bottom end - darkness and guessing are really confusing
and we are not even close to reality yet.

[marsheng]

Looks like I need to raise the RPM when the centrifugal actuator comes in by 1500 RPM . I can't really preload the spring any more as that will reduce the opening mechanism travel.

There are 4 steel balls that fly out to make it all work. They are around 6-7 mm in diameter. I was wondering if using a smaller set of balls may work. I guess another option is to only use 2.

Cheers Wallace.

[RAW]

Re- the ryger
If a engine had a single main exhaust port & 2 sub exhaust ports as we have come to know but there is a very fine slot almost like a crack from the main exhaust port into the as known sub exhaust ports, this then would be a single exhaust port.

[ken seeber]

Re- the ryger
If a engine had a single main exhaust port & 2 sub exhaust ports as we have come to know but there is a very fine slot almost like a crack from the main exhaust port into the as known sub exhaust ports, this then would be a single exhaust port.

Good thought Rick, that's exactly what they do with RC cars for the transfer port count when they put in extra passages and ports.

Frits we won't spread the pictures any further unless you give us some more crumbs. A deal?

[pugs]

Looks like I need to raise the RPM when the centrifugal actuator comes in by 1500 RPM . I can't really preload the spring any more as that will reduce the opening mechanism travel.

There are 4 steel balls that fly out to make it all work. They are around 6-7 mm in diameter. I was wondering if using a smaller set of balls may work. I guess another option is to only use 2.

Cheers Wallace.

318993
A bit rough but works... and easy to set up ... Managed to raise the rpm open point from 7000 to 9500 (depending on the spring tension) :laugh:


To whom it may concern: in my previous posts some pictures got posted that were not yet meant to be published.
I noticed that they also appeared on another forum and in other threads on Kiwibiker. It's entirely my fault but I cannot undo what others posted there. So I would really appreciate it if you would remove those pictures as soon as possible. Thank you.

What the... leave the computer for a while and I missed it... :brick:

[Lef16]

https://www.facebook.com/luc.foekema/media_set?set=a.10204088089441588&type=3
Ryger engine homologation papers online :eek:

[pugs]

https://www.facebook.com/luc.foekema/media_set?set=a.10204088089441588&type=3
Ryger engine homologation papers online :eek:

Great :2thumbsup

[Frits Overmars]

For those who haven't got Facebook:
318994318995318996318997318998318999

[Frits Overmars]

And the second batch:
319000319001319002319003319004319005

[Frits Overmars]

And the last picture for now (I could only upload 6 pictures per post):
319006

[Muciek]

Frits any chance of seeing a video (with normal sound ) of the engine running now when it's homologated? Or we have to wait till the karting season starts?

[tjbw]

And the last picture for now (I could only upload 6 pictures per post):
319006

Applause!

Thanks Frits

[Martin1981]

Frits, your crumb links do not work anymore. Intentionally?:)

[yesyes]

eager to hear the screaming engine

[bjorn.clauw.1]

And as I have said a dozen times on here, its only in lawnmowers that the dropping piston has anything to do with promoting flow
from the conventional case - thru the transfers,as there is more pressure above than there is below the piston at TPO.
The Ryger is using a very small trapped volume, that is compressed substantially by the larger diameter piston portion.
Thus it simply doesnt need a ton of blowdown to reduce the combustion pressure above the transfers, and as well it doesnt need the big negative pressure
ratio created by the diffuser to pull mixture into the cylinder when the piston is at BDC.
So a single Ex port seems entirely reasonable and expected.
The top end workings I believe we have pretty much guessed the trickery, as for the 30,000 rpm capable bottom end - darkness and guessing are really confusing
and we are not even close to reality yet.

After looking at the patent pictures I'm even more confused about the rpm claims. No immediate part/piece that made me say 'why didn't I think of that'. Everything looks strangely familiar. (besides transfers and piston offcourse).

Looking at the crossection of the cilinder there seems to be a huge obstruction in the exhaust duct (or I am misinterpreting this drawing) Seems to go along with what I have read about HCCI. With this obstruction could it be possible when the transfers open on the downstroke there is still a lot off pressure inside the cilinder which pressurizes the volume under the piston creating a high pressure cushion under the piston effectively slowing it down near bdc so the weight of the piston is taken out of the equasion. Maybe even HCCI combustion under the piston. (Cushioning on downstroke and accelerating the piston from bdc so crank doesn't have to push it up as hard / would make the choice of using 2 seal rings on the transferplate more logical in my eyes; pumping just air, one would surely be enough?). I believe the higher than normal rpm's are required to deliver power in this engine (not 30000rpm but surely higher than normal). And since the crank and rod do not look massively reinforced there has to be some clever trick to this. anyone any thoughts on this?

[SwePatrick]

Pumper carbs are alot more complex than you would think.
The 3 main tuning variables are pop off pressure, diaphragm lever height, and needle positions.
What are these variables at the moment - if you dont know, and or cant change all these,then you cant tune one.
If you can tune the top end OK with the H needle, but need the L out too far to get response off idle then you need to drop
the pop off a couple of psi.
This will then allow much less L needle but still be rich enough to accelerate off idle.
But then the H needle will need to go in some to lean off the top end.

The other issue I can see is PVL.
What is the stator coil resistance - as most of these ignitions are useless on a racing 2T as they have almost no retard at all.
If its 50 ohms you have a straight line ignition off a KZ2, useless - if its 200 ohms then you have around 7* retard, still useless.


Thanks a bunch Wobbly.
This reply guided me into tuning popoff pressure, I have ordered a lot of different springs, i´m waiting for those.
earlier this week(yesterday) I tested to modify the throttleblade a bit.
It actually became a bit better.
I also had a small fuelleak between the pumpunits, so I also ordered complete rebuildkit.

I have only run 2 pulls in dyno, 1st one reached 26.07hp only tuned it run proper above 10000rpm, it never reached any temp in pipe so I'm very curious about the final result. :)

And yes!
PVL is only retarding ~10degrees as is.
But I use it as it is rock solid, never any hickup.
I got Ignitech laying in a box waiting to get back on the engine when I need to fineadjust lower powercurve.

[dark art]

It can run at 30k but that doesn´t mean it does. IMO the claims were peak R&D achievable numbers, production engines may not reflect that.

[bjorn.clauw.1]

It can run at 30k but that doesn´t mean it does. IMO the claims were peak R&D achievable numbers, production engines may not reflect that.

Quite right. Was going to reply that it maybe turned 17000rpm vs 14000 for maximum hp but then I compared the gear ratios to a maxter mxo and they are nearly identical. Surely the ratios would be different if it made max hp at higher rpm's? So maybe 'normal' rpm's and 50-70bhp. That would be something else.

[tjbw]

After looking at the patent pictures I'm even more confused about the rpm claims. No immediate part/piece that made me say 'why didn't I think of that'. Everything looks strangely familiar. (besides transfers and piston offcourse).

Looking at the crossection of the cilinder there seems to be a huge obstruction in the exhaust duct (or I am misinterpreting this drawing) Seems to go along with what I have read about HCCI. With this obstruction could it be possible when the transfers open on the downstroke there is still a lot off pressure inside the cilinder which pressurizes the volume under the piston creating a high pressure cushion under the piston effectively slowing it down near bdc so the weight of the piston is taken out of the equasion. Maybe even HCCI combustion under the piston. (Cushioning on downstroke and accelerating the piston from bdc so crank doesn't have to push it up as hard / would make the choice of using 2 seal rings on the transferplate more logical in my eyes; pumping just air, one would surely be enough?). I believe the higher than normal rpm's are required to deliver power in this engine. And since the crank and rod do not look massively reinforced there has to be some clever trick to this. anyone any thoughts on this?

I don't think that there is an obstruction in the exhaust port, it looks more like a transfer port! (Obstruction should be shaded if it's on cylinder section line. Though it could be an anti detonation device, as shown by Wobbly recently)

Love the HCCI on downstroke thought. I guess that would make it a 1 stroke engine, if only there was some mixture left for the other power stroke. Also it wouldn't be a 125cc engine anymore.

[2005bully]

While contemplating the Ryger engine. If substantiated the performance numbers that have been thrown around will go down in history as legendary..... But the larger legacy Ryger has to offer is "low exhaust emissions from a competitive hi rpm 2 stroke". Being a new design surely more potential power exists with in the concept. If this first attempt is at least marginally competitive, the collective efforts of this forum alone should be enough to turn it into a winner. It just might be Goodbye to the 2 smokes.... Kermit Buller

[SwePatrick]

319007

Might be hard to see.
But red arrow show where I´m left wondering.
How is it flowing enough to get above 5hp? ;)
Is the homologisation papers edited to hide things?

As this 'pipe' that protrudes into cylinder goes full circle, in that way it restricts flow quite a bit.
That 'pipe' is the holder for the seal as I understand it, that seals off the crankhouse from the small 'pumphouse'.

[d2t]

Frits,
Can we have some clarification regarding terminology in the Ryger engine? Surely you guys already refer to the parts with names you've already adopted. Under-piston-pumping-area is maybe pre-compression compared volume displacement zone??? Are the lower cylinder's rings considered part of the piston or cylinder? [EDIT: obviously now it is part of the "lower cylinder," I see.] I think it would help if we all refer to these things by the same name for the sake of clarity.

[MotleyCrue]

After looking at the patent pictures I'm even more confused about the rpm claims. No immediate part/piece that made me say 'why didn't I think of that'. Everything looks strangely familiar. (besides transfers and piston offcourse).

Looking at the crossection of the cilinder there seems to be a huge obstruction in the exhaust duct (or I am misinterpreting this drawing) Seems to go along with what I have read about HCCI. With this obstruction could it be possible when the transfers open on the downstroke there is still a lot off pressure inside the cilinder which pressurizes the volume under the piston creating a high pressure cushion under the piston effectively slowing it down near bdc so the weight of the piston is taken out of the equasion. Maybe even HCCI combustion under the piston. (Cushioning on downstroke and accelerating the piston from bdc so crank doesn't have to push it up as hard / would make the choice of using 2 seal rings on the transferplate more logical in my eyes; pumping just air, one would surely be enough?). I believe the higher than normal rpm's are required to deliver power in this engine (not 30000rpm but surely higher than normal). And since the crank and rod do not look massively reinforced there has to be some clever trick to this. anyone any thoughts on this?


Is there a link to the patent somewhere ?

[wobbly]

Still nothing on the CIK site this morning, but here are the homologation papers for the Ryger.
Now the fun begins.

https://www.facebook.com/luc.foekema/media_set?set=a.10204088089441588&type=3

Sorry - I see its already been posted, but much of the detail is hidden, when I get the CIK full version I will post them.

Edit - several new engines have just been loaded on the CIK site, Maxter,DEA,OTK and a new compulsory muffler for KZ2 and a new airbox.
So the full Ryger papers must be less than a day away.

[Flettner]

Thank you again Frits, Now would you talk us through this masterpiece. What are we missing?
For example where are the 11 transfers? Or are we saying each transfer has two ports, one in and one out. So that would be five transfer passages and one slot?
The rings certainly look like they touch the piston by the shinny top surface of the ring we see exposed.
There must be fine detail we are missing?

[Grumph]

Thank you again Frits, Now would you talk us through this masterpiece. What are we missing?
For example where are the 11 transfers? Or are we saying each transfer has two ports, one in and one out. So that would be five transfer passages and one slot?
The rings certainly look like they touch the piston by the shinny top surface of the ring we see exposed.
There must be fine detail we are missing?

I think we're looking at the version they felt comfortable homologating. The V1.0 if you like. What the V2.0 looks like and whether this or V2.0 is what Frits drove we may not see for while.
If I was in charge of the programme at Ryger, I would certainly be looking at staging the release in order to at least make money off each stage.

[TZ350]

319010

Now the Ryger info is coming out, Team ESE is developing their new action plan.

[tjbw]

319010

Now the Ryger info is coming out, Team ESE is developing their new action plan.

HAHA, good cartoon :)

[TZ350]

HAHA, good cartoon :)

Making ambitious plans and suffering the consequences of reality has been the story of our life lately .... :laugh:

[tjbw]

Thank you again Frits, Now would you talk us through this masterpiece. What are we missing?
For example where are the 11 transfers? Or are we saying each transfer has two ports, one in and one out. So that would be five transfer passages and one slot?
The rings certainly look like they touch the piston by the shinny top surface of the ring we see exposed.
There must be fine detail we are missing?

The cylinder development drawing shows 1 exhaust port and 11 transfer ports ( counting both ends).

I think the port below the exhaust feeds 2 further ports inside the exhaust.

However the cylinder section drawing doesn't show that transfer port below the exhaust, but it does show something in the exhaust!

Regarding the rings not touching the piston, I think perhaps something got lost in translation.

[m4r]

regarding those lines in the exhaust duct, couldn't it be as simple as left overs from an auxiliary port someone forgot to remove from the drawing? :doh:

[seymour14]

Making ambitious plans and suffering the consequences of reality has been the story of our life lately .... :laugh:

Yes, whoever dreamt up reality needs a reality check...:lol:

Still we keep on dreaming...:brick:

[mike schmidt]

regarding those lines in the exhaust duct, couldn't it be as simple as left overs from an auxiliary port someone forgot to remove from the drawing? :doh:

My vote is they are left over from original drawing.

Michael

[ken seeber]

A couple of Ryger observations:
1. The primary drive and gearbox ratios are exactly the same as the VM engine on which it is based
2. The exhaust is also very close. All the 14 cone diameters are the same, both at the start and finish. The inside cone lengths are all the same, other than #2 which is a few mm longer. However The total outside length of cones #1 to #5 inclusive is 181.7 compared to 222 for the VM exhaust. I guess this will have an effect, including straightening out the pipe. Cones #7 and #9 also vary a tad, but within a bee's dick.

[F5 Dave]

Honey or Bumble?

I think I'll need one of those clear plastic boxes crank the handle and see the engine turn to even begin to understand how this works.

[tjbw]

319007

Might be hard to see.
But red arrow show where I´m left wondering.
How is it flowing enough to get above 5hp? ;)
Is the homologisation papers edited to hide things?

As this 'pipe' that protrudes into cylinder goes full circle, in that way it restricts flow quite a bit.
That 'pipe' is the holder for the seal as I understand it, that seals off the crankhouse from the small 'pumphouse'.

I agree, it seems that part of the drawing is not to scale. Also, the drawing of cylinder development doesn't match the section view of cylinder (transfer inlet under the exhaust not shown on section).

[Leed]

drawings seem pretty close

doesn't help building a model though either - features can still have questionable function

http://rotary.net.nz/rgv/ryger3d.jpg

the groove in the plate is to accommodate piston skirt - doesn't go all the way through

Haha just realised my cylinder is on backwards

[lodgernz]

319007

Might be hard to see.
But red arrow show where I´m left wondering.
How is it flowing enough to get above 5hp? ;)
Is the homologisation papers edited to hide things?

As this 'pipe' that protrudes into cylinder goes full circle, in that way it restricts flow quite a bit.
That 'pipe' is the holder for the seal as I understand it, that seals off the crankhouse from the small 'pumphouse'.

That drawing shows the cylinder tight against the protruding seal holder, but in other pictures there is room for the upper piston exhaust port slide cover on one side of the seal holder.
Looks like 5 or 6 mm, maybe more. I'm sure that gap will be consistent around the perimeter of the seal holder and cylinder.
Still not a lot of space for good transfer flow, but of course the gas is under pressure entering those lower ports.

[J.A.W.]

Honey or Bumble?

I think I'll need one of those clear plastic boxes crank the handle and see the engine turn to even begin to understand how this works.


Kudos for a frank self-appraisal - of your technical subject comprehension capacity - there, dyno-Dave..

As 'Dirty' Harry .Callaghan was wont to remark.. "A man has gotta recognize his limitations"...

As for the 'Ryger' - lets see a dyno chart, please...

[F5 Dave]

So will this thing stall, or not start under 10,000?

Who`s going to be the first to tell him to raise the exhaust port floor?:innocent:

[MotleyCrue]

I suppose the patent might explain it all at least a little better than just the pictures. Anyone found it now that it has gone through the patent process ?

[TZ350]

Who`s going to be the first to tell him to raise the exhaust port floor?:innocent:

Not me, and not me ....... :laugh::laugh:

[marsheng]

A bit rough but works... and easy to set up ... Managed to raise the rpm open point from 7000 to 9500 (depending on the spring tension)

Thanks and that is easily tune-able external to the motor.

[bjorn.clauw.1]

drawings seem pretty close

doesn't help building a model though either - features can still have questionable function

http://rotary.net.nz/rgv/ryger3d.jpg

the groove in the plate is to accommodate piston skirt - doesn't go all the way through

Haha just realised my cylinder is on backwards

Looks nice. The purple slider I believe is to close of the piston pin hole; during engine assembly it is fixed in the up position.

[tjbw]

drawings seem pretty close

doesn't help building a model though either - features can still have questionable function

http://rotary.net.nz/rgv/ryger3d.jpg

the groove in the plate is to accommodate piston skirt - doesn't go all the way through

Haha just realised my cylinder is on backwards

The cylinder ports match the piston orientation, so I'd say it's the redundant crankcase reed inlet which is on the wrong side. Also there is only only one exhaust port, according to the signed homologation document.

Agree with the comment that purple sleeve should be in closed position.

[JanBros]

no reads in the transfers, so allthough I haven't hurted my brain enough to figure out how it all works, at least I was right about one thing :wings:

[lucf]

Here is the official full homologation document.
The official publication document will follow soon.
Frits was not allowed to show the earlier pictures, so sorry for that confusion.

I can't get those pictures here, so sorry only the link
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204087796994277&set=a.10204088089441588&type=3&theater

[F5 Dave]

Welcome. There is limited abilities till you post count gets up.

[MotleyCrue]

Its feelin a little anti-climatic, so far. Guess that's what you would call a soft unveiling.:confused:

[Flettner]

QUOTE=lucf;1130940281]Here is the official full homologation document.
The official publication document will follow soon.
Frits was not allowed to show the earlier pictures, so sorry for that confusion.

I can't get those pictures here, so sorry only the link
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204087796994277&set=a.10204088089441588&type=3&theater[/QUOTE]

Luc, good to have you here, THE offical twostroke thread:laugh:
What was in those picture that we were not to see?

http://littlefun.org/uploads/522a74b8e691b25f4848b82c_736.jpg

[Flettner]

Its feelin a little anti-climatic, so far. Guess that's what you would call a soft unveiling.:confused:

Yes I must admit, is that it?

[wobbly]

I still totally disbelieve that a stock crank on 54.5mm stroke with a 90mm stock rod can approach 30,000 rpm
without making even more ports in the case that weren't there before.
Sure having oil "splashing " about may be better for the stock cage/washers ,than an oil mist with fuel as well
but the bottom ends of the 20,000 rpm 100cc International reed and RV kart engines with 48mm stroke exploded with
monotonous regularity.
Whats different here with the Ryger, apart from maybe some cushioning effect at BDC.
This compression is minimal compared to the combustion pressure at TDC, and as we know, the inertial force of the piston stretches the rod
sufficiently for it to hit the head,if your squish is too close.

[Tunisti]

In the section view of the Ryger cylinder there is this non-lined section in the exhaust duct. At first I thought that there would be some kind of divider in the duct, just to stabilize especially the beginning of the flow. But, as I have been taught: when there isn't lines, then there´s no base material at that point. So, we can either think that there is something else, let´s say material X at that point. Or then, it could be that there is no material, and the side wall of the exhaust duct has holes. I´d go for the last one, since it`d be bad engineering not to mark the material X with different filament line.

So, is there connection between the wide "Ryger port" below the exhaust port and the assumed ducts on the side walls of the exhaust duct? If so, It´d change the concept of short circuiting for good.:sweatdrop

[yesyes]

at that point, all I understand is that CIK homologation papers do not allow any reader to
clearly make his mind concerning the way the Ryger engine works :oi-grr:
what about patent information ?

[MotleyCrue]

Power at higher revs would mean more total airflow despite trapping being less. Higher CCR will make for more total airflow, if, the air flow then comes from somewhere else part way through the transfer period when the "crankcase" has already blown its wad into the cylinder.

If the homologation indicates that the engine has certain parts, that means of course that you can't run parts that aren't in the homologation, but can you legally run the engine without using ALL of the parts in the homologation ??

[ken seeber]

Another observation from the homologation documents regarding the piston. There is a 1.0 mm radial drilling between the two piston rings that connects to the cavity within the 36 shaft or rod of the piston, which is also connected to the wet sump. This might mean that they use some suitable 2 stroke oil in the sump, which would then be a consumable, albeit very small (maybe).
Has anyone thought about the assembly sequence? Maybe the piston is of a passive 2 piece design.
Can't believe the CIK approved documents with the various inconsistencies or errors between the drawings and the pics.

[Larry Wiechman]

I find it hard to believe there is no side view of the piston; only a top view.

[tjbw]

Another observation from the homologation documents regarding the piston. There is a 1.0 mm radial drilling between the two piston rings that connects to the cavity within the 36 shaft or rod of the piston, which is also connected to the wet sump. This might mean that they use some suitable 2 stroke oil in the sump, which would then be a consumable, albeit very small (maybe).
Has anyone thought about the assembly sequence? Maybe the piston is of a passive 2 piece design.
Can't believe the CIK approved documents with the various inconsistencies or errors between the drawings and the pics.

The piston has a gudgeon pin cover, retained by two screws. Not sure what they to at other end of gudgeon pin, but another cover there would make sense to me, though no screw holes are shown for one on the drawing.

[Leed]

http://rotary.net.nz/rgv/ryger-piston2.jpg

dia 15mm pin is covered, rod bearing diameter 19mm (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=318999&d=1453297015)

Piston crown drawing (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=319003&d=1453297089)

http://rotary.net.nz/rgv/ryger-piston1.jpg

[monkeyfumi]

Good to see people are honouring Frits' request to not repost the images he inadvertantly posted....

Hope that little error didn't cost him too much per his NDA

[ken seeber]

The piston has a gudgeon pin cover, retained by two screws. Not sure what they to at other end of gudgeon pin, but another cover there would make sense to me, though no screw holes are shown for one on the drawing.

Yep, we can see what you have said, but how would you tighten the 2 screws (M3,4 or 5) if these were under the spacer plate which can't be raised high enough. Maybe it can, dunno. I guess we'll have to wait for the real doccos so we can have some accurate drawings to scale off. Unfortunately we might not get the full piston drawings as these traditionally are never included in previous CIK doccos.

[Grumph]

Another observation from the homologation documents regarding the piston. There is a 1.0 mm radial drilling between the two piston rings that connects to the cavity within the 36 shaft or rod of the piston, which is also connected to the wet sump. This might mean that they use some suitable 2 stroke oil in the sump, which would then be a consumable, albeit very small (maybe).
Has anyone thought about the assembly sequence? Maybe the piston is of a passive 2 piece design.
Can't believe the CIK approved documents with the various inconsistencies or errors between the drawings and the pics.

I take your earlier point about the gear ratios and pipe being unchanged for all intents from the motor it's based on. You're inferring that this version isn't intended for 30,000rpm...
Assembly sequence ain't difficult. Put the plate onto the piston and push it as far up as it will go. Offer that lot onto the top end of the rod and insert pin. I'd point out here that the unseen other end of the pin bore may actually be blind...Insert whatever retainer is used and put the slide cover on. Lower plate into top of cases. Barrel should then go on as per conventional assembly.
I'd assume that the piston lubrication provision you point out should allow a much reduced oil content in the fuel....

Edit - posts crossed Ken, looking at the pics I reckon the plate will go high enough.

[2005bully]

Nothing here

[Grumph]

In regards to the piston construction. In the bottom picture the piston appears to be machined from a single billet. In the top picture where the piston is installed in an engine, the inner tubular part of the of the piston that extends into the spacer plate looks to be of a different material. Or is it just plating giving it a different appearance? It would make for simpler top end rebuilds if the top of the piston was separate and removable from the bottom. Kermit Buller

I note the inner "tube" part of the piston has two rings running on it. Any colour difference i'd hope is plating.

[Larry Wiechman]

My guess is Teflon rings.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=319006&d=1453297189

[Martin1981]

It is getting a little big bit silly now....

"Image protected by non disclosure agreement"

The homologatin papers are there so one should stop that secrecy shit now. :facepalm: it is ridiculous.

[d2t]

So it seems that the posted homologation forms don't reveal much. As others have stated, this is probably not the ultimate version of the Ryger's developments. There are several things missing from ideas we saw in the original patent. Most notably, the "lower cylinder" now lacks the circular reed petals and instead uses a more traditional reed block on the "upper?" cylinder. Of course, many ideas could have been improved upon or scrapped in the nine years since it was originally published. We'll see if there is more information to come in the near future. I guess we'll have to just wait and see.

Some things I noticed on the homologation form:
Although the piston's top is a standard 54mm with two rings, the lower piston comes in at 36mm and no ring grooves. Instead, the lower seal is made by two continuous rings (no break at one end) that are clamped into the lower cylinder. These rings transition very smoothly into the lower cylinders' bore (36.00mm rings, 36.15mm bore).
319018

The purpose of the lower set of ports is lost to me in this configuration as there are no ports in the lower cylinder to allow passage of air through these ports. The illustration doesn't match the photo as there are no secondary exhaust ports in this cylinder (as the shape in the exhaust cutaway would indicate) and the cylinder doesn't sit in a stepped groove on the lower cylinder (as is depicted in the illustration).
319017

Several of the other pictures do not resemble their illustrations as well. The cylinder, for example:
319016
Extra C-port? Spacing?

I'm starting to wonder if this is the actual homologation paper or some elaborate hoax just to troll us. These pictures maybe range from several periods of the development cycle or the illustrations are just crazy (then what's the point of having them?!?). As for the original (deleted) pictures, I'm sure I'd have a lot to comment on but out of respect for Frits and the Ryger group, I think I'll forget them. We should probably focus on the engine currently being presented.

[Flettner]

I hope Ryger is not too hard on Frits (NDA) as Ryger has done very well out of Frit's involvement, without him, this would just be a big joke, ie pictures contradicting themselves.:mad:

I challange Luk F to show us this engine (in these Homologation papers) to do 30,000 RPM AND 70HP AND 80% less emissions than a normal twostroke. I don't think he can. The main engine is being held back and clearly some technology, for whatever reason?

But like everyone else here I WANT TO BELIEVE also.

[F5 Dave]

And noe one has discussed the ignition, HCCIWTF (guess for yourself) or how this engine starts below a million revs.

[jonny quest]

The limited amount of trying to figure this out by pics, it appears the biggest "new" technology is an almost 0 crankcase volume.

That appears to be the "magic"

[jfn2]

jonny quest:
I agree with you. I finally figured it out, even the oil separator. The very small crankcase, or should I say ,
lower cylinder volume must be the key. I'm sure the HCCI has alot to do with it also. My question is about the small oil hole in the piston? If that is what it is.
Wobbly, this could be your grandson's new lawnmower engine.

[jonny quest]

The hole in piston between rings is what lubricates rings. Fed by crankcase.

[jonny quest]

Someone mentioned gudgeon pin being high in piston. It's actually low on piston.

No crazy hinged connecting rod. The side loading of piston is reduced 33%. A unintentional added benefit.

[Norman]

I have seen two pictures from the combustion in a cylinder process of a two stroke engine where the first are from spark ignition the engine at 9000 rpm, the second is the same engine running at 17 000 rpm with HCCI. It proves to me that it is possible. The pictures are from a university nearby me (no secrets though). Maybe someone else here has also seen the pictures. I will see if I eventually can find out more, it would be interesting to know if they could get the HCCI combustion to be stable.

[wobbly]

The Ryger has ( and has to have as well ) a stock PVL homologated straight line analogue ignition system.
Its static timing could well be altered ( legal - yes ) to allow HCCI later in the rpm range.
But I say again - utter bullshit that the stock 54.5mm looking crank and the stock looking 90mm rod survive at 30,000.
My favorite saying is "the dyno doesn't lie " but straight out inertial physics cant be ignored either.

[jonny quest]

I'm just starting to look at pics. Very short transfer tunnels.

I'm guessing the reason for reduced emissions, there's nothing left in cranckcase or tunnels for short circuiting!

26mm crank pin... plain bearings...it can be done Wobbly.

No one has mentioned for how long it will last yet.

[jonny quest]

Is there a pic of crank? Bearings?

[M.Holder]

Long time lurker...finally a post to get started in this fantastic thread

About intervals:
319033

[Muciek]

If you watch forum via tapatalk it shows in thread top either ryger piston or that 2nd picture when cylinder was removed, so Frits You should pm admin about that.

[yesyes]

Long time lurker...finally a post to get started in this fantastic thread

About intervals:
319033

I can see some guys running mad ;) nervous breakdown to come :yes:

[Lightbulb]

I'm not seeing any photos. What am I doing wrong on tapa talk?

Sent from my SM-J500Y using Tapatalk

[m4r]

HCCI has no high requirements for the ignition

the key to HCCI is the right mixture, where you have much more possibilities now because you don't need to run rich to lubricate the crankdrive anymore.

[Frits Overmars]

HCCI has no high requirements for the ignition. the key to HCCI is the right mixture, where you have much more possibilities now because you don't need to run rich to lubricate the crankdrive anymore.You are right in saying that HCCI has no requirements for the ignition. With the right engine configuration it doesn't even need an ignition at all, as Flettner has recently proven. He has also proven that mixture strength is anything but critical. If there is enough fuel, it will consume all the air. If there is enough air, it will burn all the fuel, even if the mixture is so lean that a spark would no longer be able to ignite it.
In that respect HCCI is much like a diesel. But unlike a diesel it is capable of ludicrous rpm levels, as Flettner found out in blank amazement. And at the time there was not even a regular fuel supply any more; the engine was only running on the two-stroke lubrication oil collected in the crankcase :shit:.

[adegnes]

You are right in saying that HCCI has no requirements for the ignition. With the right engine configuration it doesn't even need an ignition at all, as Flettner has recently proven. He has also proven that mixture strength is anything but critical. If there is enough fuel, it will consume all the air. If there is enough air, it will burn all the fuel, even if the mixture is so lean that a spark would no longer be able to ignite it.
In that respect HCCI is much like a diesel. But unlike a diesel it is capable of ludicrous rpm levels, as Flettner found out in blank amazement. And at the time there was not even a regular fuel supply any more; the engine was only running on the two-stroke lubrication oil collected in the crankcase :shit:.

Where has Flettner documented his endeavors?

[Frits Overmars]

Where has Flettner documented his endeavors?On Kiwibiker, where else? :D
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/162399-The-Bucket-Foundry/page117

[adegnes]

On Kiwibiker, where else? :D
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/162399-The-Bucket-Foundry/page117
Of course... Thanks! Had forgotten about the foundry thread, which is great cause now I know I've got alot of interesting reading ahead of me!

[crbbt]

Frits, you don't seem to be struggling with the minimum word length anymore!

I'm wondering if it would be better to put the Ryger cylinder and induction/spacer plate onto a 4t bottom end. Say a 250 dirt bike, with it's pressurised oil system?

Sorta annoyed I just had my classic nx4 cases turn up

[wobbly]

I agree JonnyQ that the real issue with current 2T crank life expectancy is down to the big end bearing - more specifically the
cage.
It is this that is the weak link currently, in that the KZ2 engines we run have peak power at 13,000 and will rev easily to 15,000.
But in doing so, the cranks last reliably for around 60L of fuel - 2 meetings.

The late model 4T engines run in MX can run roller bearing or plain bearings,but all run high pressure lube thru the crank direct into the pin.
They run ( unreliably,and very expensively ) up to 35M/Sec piston speed, so quite a jump up from the current 2T engines level - simply due to the lube and bearing.
Sadly the Ryger has splash lube, so trying to convince me it will last at over 50M/Sec just isnt going to happen no matter what size the big
end pin is or the bearing type, with its conventional crank and conrod.
With peak power at 17,000 maybe it will have the same reliability as we have now ie minimal YES - acceptable, NO.

I really did think there was something clever happening downstairs in the new engine,now im really pissed off there is nothing to see or get interested in.

And regarding what is going on with the information and the apparent ruckus over the NDA issues.
Basically we now know what is going on inside - no patent number for this current engine spec appears to have been issued - whats stopping anyone from now building anything,
an outboard, a jetski, a lawnmower, a 500GP bike, using the ideas we have already seen, as it for sure isnt protected.
All the old patents are very different, so in no way apply to THIS engine spec.

[WilDun]

Going back a little and as I said before somewhere, there is a lot of fuss about the 30,000 rpm, but as I understood it the 30K thing was a one off ie when they let it go to see what would happen.
The other thing was when the idea of no ring friction came up, someone asked Frits when there would be no ring friction and he replied - 'when the rings don't touch the piston' but he didn't say that this was actually the case here, seemed to me it was meant as how it would be in a hypothetical situation.
Everyone grabbed at the idea that all this was to be the norm - also there never was any report on the condition of the big end bearing afterwards by the way! (this is all just from what I remember - please correct me if I'm wrong).

Much ado about nothing I reckon!

[Flettner]

Going back a little and as I said before somewhere, there is a lot of fuss about the 30,000 rpm, but as I understood it the 30K thing was a one off ie when they let it go to see what would happen.
The other thing was when the idea of no ring friction came up, someone asked Frits when there would be no ring friction and he replied - 'when the rings don't touch the piston' but he didn't say that this was actually the case here, seemed to me it was meant as how it would be in a hypothetical situation.
Everyone grabbed at the idea that all this was to be the norm - also there never was any report on the condition of the big end bearing afterwards by the way! (this is all just from what I remember - please correct me if I'm wrong).

Much ado about nothing I reckon!

No, Harry did state that the ring did not touch the piston.

[Norman]

Hi Wobbly, If I remember correctly, a patent can be issued and kept secret from the public for 18 months. I read about a guy that during 2014 worked on the Ryger engine including things for the patent(s?). I do hope that they issued the most relevant patents latest during the autumn of 2014 so that we do not have to wait too long.:confused:

[WilDun]

No, Harry did state that the ring did not touch the piston.

Ah well, the human memory tends to fade with advancing years!

Guess that explains why there is a cover on the piston rod? stem? for the gudgeon pin, makes sense now.

[tjbw]

Going back a little and as I said before somewhere, there is a lot of fuss about the 30,000 rpm, but as I understood it the 30K thing was a one off ie when they let it go to see what would happen.
The other thing was when the idea of no ring friction came up, someone asked Frits when there would be no ring friction and he replied - 'when the rings don't touch the piston' but he didn't say that this was actually the case here, seemed to me it was meant as how it would be in a hypothetical situation.
Everyone grabbed at the idea that all this was to be the norm - also there never was any report on the condition of the big end bearing afterwards by the way! (this is all just from what I remember - please correct me if I'm wrong).

Much ado about nothing I reckon!

I agree, it's unfortunate that 30k was ever mentioned, but I guess it helped gain publicity and sales.

As I said before if I had one of these I'd want revs to be limited to just above peak power.

I've never understood the 'when the rings don't touch the piston' comment, and assumed it to be a misquote.

The engine is simpler than I expected, and I look forward to seeing it win races. I wonder how long before we see the next Ryger model.

[husaberg]

I agree JonnyQ that the real issue with current 2T crank life expectancy is down to the big end bearing - more specifically the
cage.
It is this that is the weak link currently, in that the KZ2 engines we run have peak power at 13,000 and will rev easily to 15,000.
But in doing so, the cranks last reliably for around 60L of fuel - 2 meetings.

The late model 4T engines run in MX can run roller bearing or plain bearings,but all run high pressure lube thru the crank direct into the pin.
They run ( unreliably,and very expensively ) up to 35M/Sec piston speed, so quite a jump up from the current 2T engines level - simply due to the lube and bearing.
Sadly the Ryger has splash lube, so trying to convince me it will last at over 50M/Sec just isnt going to happen no matter what size the big
end pin is or the bearing type, with its conventional crank and conrod.
With peak power at 17,000 maybe it will have the same reliability as we have now ie minimal YES - acceptable, NO.

I really did think there was something clever happening downstairs in the new engine,now im really pissed off there is nothing to see or get interested in.

And regarding what is going on with the information and the apparent ruckus over the NDA issues.
Basically we now know what is going on inside - no patent number for this current engine spec appears to have been issued - whats stopping anyone from now building anything,
an outboard, a jetski, a lawnmower, a 500GP bike, using the ideas we have already seen, as it for sure isnt protected.
All the old patents are very different, so in no way apply to THIS engine spec.


MR ryger
There is talk of 20,000 revolutions but in my first tile to find the exact information.
With Luc we find a good solution to limit the speed at about 20,000 rpm max is 30,000 at the moment.




Mr Ryger
in my first design we have indeed -Well lesser extent-had this problem.
if you prefer this, I can just send a new confidentiality agreement and demonstrate the new concept.
It is not intended that the motor is 30,000 rpm draaien.want then one would request the material gods.
The maximum capacity is between 17 and 18k rpm.
However, the speed limit at 30,000 rpm is far he reaches continues.


http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130890695#post1130890695

[tjbw]

Frits, you don't seem to be struggling with the minimum word length anymore!

I'm wondering if it would be better to put the Ryger cylinder and induction/spacer plate onto a 4t bottom end. Say a 250 dirt bike, with it's pressurised oil system?

Sorta annoyed I just had my classic nx4 cases turn up

I'd go for the 4t bottom end, with pressurised oil system, and more oil holes in the piston.

[SS90]

No, Harry did state that the ring did not touch the piston.

No. The statement was "How can an engine achieve 30,000 rpm? Easy..... The rings must never touch the piston" I don't take that as "I have made an engine that achieves 30,000 RPM, because the rings don't touch the piston." Frits also never wrote that "This engine achieves either 70hp", or "Makes it at 30,000 rpm." It's all in the wording.
Some people only see what they want to see.
I can't recal exactly, but Frits did write clearly that it made something like 58 P.S at 18,000.
This sounds feasible.

[Flettner]

No. The statement was "How can an engine achieve 30,000 rpm? Easy..... The rings must never touch the piston" I don't take that as "I have made an engine that achieves 30,000 RPM, because the rings don't touch the piston." Frits also never wrote that "This engine achieves either 70hp", or "Makes it at 30,000 rpm." It's all in the wording.
Some people only see what they want to see.
I can't recal exactly, but Frits did write clearly that it made something like 58 P.S at 18,000.
This sounds feasible.

SS, I'm not going to argue the point.

[TerraRoot]

I'm not a fan of getting into online discussions, but I can see how the ryger can survive 17K.

2 statements,
four strokes last longer because they are better lubricated.
two strokes have a less stressful time because the piston is cushioned at the top and bottom of the stroke (compare a 4t and 2t conrod)

Ryger's design has the best of both world, doesn't it?

The rygers piston's stem (think thats the best tech term for it) is lubricated almost like a four stroke, I'm sure the 90mm rod and the splash lube are compromise's for karting, and it keeps the piston off the barrel wall, cutting down on lots of friction.

[wobbly]

A normal 2T piston has no more cushioning at BDC than i can fly to the moon - without serious chemical assistance, as prescribed by Hunter S Thompson.
The Ryger does have serious BDC compression going on, but several orders of magnitude less than the useless compression assistance we see at TDC.
Rod stretch at stratospheric rpm can easily overcome combustion pressure and the piston can unfortunately hit the head - why do we need at least 0.75mm clearance
in a 14500 rpm 125 - way less than the the Ryger will need with a 54.5 stroke at its 17,000 rpm peak power rpm as stated regularly by several commentators.
If it does make a peak, of version one at 58Hp or, 70Hp at 17,000 version two ( some argument there, with no dyno results - highly suspect for a start ) then it really needs overev to 19,000.
Thus piston cushioning is a joke,so please stop cracking Irish jokes that have no meaning in reality - we in the know call inertial physics., and like the dyno, it doesn't lie.

[Frits Overmars]

someone asked Frits when there would be no ring friction and he replied - 'when the rings don't touch the piston'!
No, Harry did state that the ring did not touch the piston.That's right, I never said that. I never even understood that statement.

[WilDun]

That's right, I never said that. I never even understood that statement.

Frits,
My apologies if I have misquoted you here, but I do remember words to that effect being said by someone somewhere on the thread (on a discussion on the Ryger).

You say you never understood that statement - can you remember when and by whom it was posted? - Harry? (as Neil said).
I felt at the time it might just have been a sarcastic statement about the chances of zero friction on the "stem"

I also said a few posts back that I was relying on memory, rather than going back through all the posts to find out, so sorry about that.

[tjbw]

That's right, I never said that. I never even understood that statement.

Well you're not alone there :)

But after all these months, I came to the conclusion, that whoever said it, really meant to say "the piston doesn't touch the cylinder"

[adegnes]

Well you're not alone there :)

But after all these months, I came to the conclusion, that whoever said it, really meant to say "the piston doesn't touch the cylinder"

What's the fun it that? :wings:

[JanBros]

Someone mentioned gudgeon pin being high in piston. It's actually low on piston.


with an extra spacer under the cylinder and a known rod length of only 90mm, I wonder who would think the gudgeon pin could have been high in the piston ?

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, My apologies if I have misquoted you here, but I do remember words to that effect being said by someone somewhere on the thread (on a discussion on the Ryger)....
I also said a few posts back that I was relying on memory, rather than going back through all the posts to find out, so sorry about that.Don't worry about it Will. I know how difficult it can be to find a text back. I had a fairly good idea of where to look, and it still took me fifteen minutes.
It's here: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130892436#post1130892436

[arc100]

While contemplating the Ryger engine. If substantiated the performance numbers that have been thrown around will go down in history as legendary..... But the larger legacy Ryger has to offer is "low exhaust emissions from a competitive hi rpm 2 stroke". Being a new design surely more potential power exists with in the concept. If this first attempt is at least marginally competitive, the collective efforts of this forum alone should be enough to turn it into a winner. It just might be Goodbye to the 2 smokes.... Kermit Buller

I know you're just busting to put a ryger conversion kit on your Bama. :yes:

You'll really stick it to the Jawa/GM guys then. You'll have to drag out the old billet 131 with a ryger kit and still give em hell.

[arc100]

Frits, you don't seem to be struggling with the minimum word length anymore!

I'm wondering if it would be better to put the Ryger cylinder and induction/spacer plate onto a 4t bottom end. Say a 250 dirt bike, with it's pressurised oil system?

Sorta annoyed I just had my classic nx4 cases turn up


Why would you want to add pressure fed oil to a rotating assembly that doesn't need it. I haven't seen the crank and oiling system explained yet. Pressure fed oil systems add hydro drag and drain power.

I might add however that F1 engines went through some difficulties working out a good process and path for the oil to travel and lubricate whilst combating large G loads from the high rpm that could force the oil back down the oil galleries and starve the big end.

[breezy]

i think maybe, that if all who looked in on this web site came up with some cash, we could have ordered up a ryger engine... stripped it .. documented it .. and sold it on.. probably for a little profit on top:brick:

[bjorn.clauw.1]

I have seen two pictures from the combustion in a cylinder process of a two stroke engine where the first are from spark ignition the engine at 9000 rpm, the second is the same engine running at 17 000 rpm with HCCI. It proves to me that it is possible. The pictures are from a university nearby me (no secrets though). Maybe someone else here has also seen the pictures. I will see if I eventually can find out more, it would be interesting to know if they could get the HCCI combustion to be stable.

319059
This one?

Frits, thanks for the link to Flettners work, very interesting lecture. (also big thanks to Flettner for sharing your amazing work).
Also, tried your hcci program and the graphic function works perfectly on my phone with dosbox.

319060

Does anyone have any thoughts on how to get hcci going without a second piston to increase pressure, instead using the hot exhaust gasses to increase the temperature? Thinking of a solution Frits proposed a long time ago on another forum where he opted to put a sliding cone in front of the stinger to (when opened) reduce exhaust gas blowback into the cilinder (and detonation) of the rsa125 when on part throttle at high rpm.


Also found a link to the wiseman engine, crankshaft looks nice. Not in my power to calculate if this could withstand 15000 or more rpm's + longevity. Fabricating and testing, this I can do.
Is this the crank mechanism you use Flettner?
https://vimeo.com/15849161

[Norman]

Yes! These are the HCCI picture I have seen on the two stroke engine. I wish they would have given some more info about the two stroke engine testing. The researchers behind the report must have some interesting additional information.

[WilDun]

Talk about the devil: a couple of weeks ago I pointed Harry Ryger to the kiwibiker-forum and he seems to be impressed; I just found this mail in my in-box, with Harry's request to post it here:
==============================================

A few things to think about :
30.000 rpm ? easy….. it could do a lot more. How ? don’t let the piston touch the rings !
Kind regards
Harry Ryger
=================================================

That sure clears it up Frits, thanks - I admit to being a little lazy about going back and doing research, but when I see something which impresses or intrigues me it tends to stick in my mind albeit missing the odd detail perhaps (like, who wrote it? :rolleyes:)

Some of the trouble here is that this is such a huge thread with stuff coming in all the time and we don't get time to thoroughly digest things or even read them properly. I definitely am guilty in this department - and of course when I answer, I talk too much! :laugh:

Thanks for clearing that up, it's still an enigmatic statement though - did he say that he has actually tried that? or is he hoping to experiment with it in the future? - seems to me to be the latter.

Guess we'll never know exactly but he obviously is a thoughtful guy!

[2005bully]

Also found a link to the wiseman engine, crankshaft looks nice. Not in my power to calculate if this could withstand 15000 or more rpm's + longevity. Fabricating and testing, this I can do.
Is this the crank mechanism you use Flettner?
https://vimeo.com/15849161[/QUOTE]

An interesting read on empirical testing of the Wiseman hypocycloid design... http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/23311916.2014.988402

Another pat pend hypocycloid crankshaft design ..... http://www.stevens.edu/provost/sites/provost/files/FPS14_Other_EfficientHypocloidGearMechanismforInte rnalCombustionEngineApplications.pdf

Additional geometric information on the hypocycloid principle .... https://tube.geogebra.org/m/33265

[2005bully]

I know you're just busting to put a ryger conversion kit on your Bama. :yes:

You'll really stick it to the Jawa/GM guys then. You'll have to drag out the old billet 131 with a ryger kit and still give em hell.

Interesting thought, but IF that were to happen....First the performance, reliability and user friendliness, would need to be established. Which would be followed by resolving any legal issues.
Looking at my work schedule I would say the Jawa/GM guys are pretty safe from that threat for quite some time.. Besides..... I'm getting to old to take all those Monday morning ph calls. Kermit Buller

[karter444]

HEAD SHAPE
was wondering what the difference in performance would be between 2 heads that have the same squish and head volume , but one has a wide squish band with a narrow and deep combustion chamber ,the other a narrow squish band with a wide and shallow chamber?
cheers

[TerraRoot]

Thus piston cushioning is a joke,so please stop cracking Irish jokes that have no meaning in reality - we in the know call inertial physics., and like the dyno, it doesn't lie.

A bit harsh mate.

[wobbly]

Sorry Terra, thats just me.
But it really isnt true that somehow pressure ( at TDC or BDC ) is even in the same ballpark as the inertia forces of bringing the piston to a stop.
At TDC we have huge combustion pressure - and that cant stop the piston hitting the head past 14500 with 0.75mm clearance.
So the Ryger with its stepped piston compressing the tiny volume above the separator plate has no chance of helping at all.

And re the squish question - the answer lies in the MSV.
If you keep the volume the same, and the squish height the same, then the width that gets the MSV closest to 38M/Sec is the best compromise between
turbulence generation, and the loss of the fuel trapped in the end gas volume that doesnt burn.
But - as the MSV rises,and chamber turbulence goes up increasing flame speed with it, you will need to adjust the ignition timing to optimize for that.

[Flettner]

319059
This one?

Frits, thanks for the link to Flettners work, very interesting lecture. (also big thanks to Flettner for sharing your amazing work).
Also, tried your hcci program and the graphic function works perfectly on my phone with dosbox.

319060

Does anyone have any thoughts on how to get hcci going without a second piston to increase pressure, instead using the hot exhaust gasses to increase the temperature? Thinking of a solution Frits proposed a long time ago on another forum where he opted to put a sliding cone in front of the stinger to (when opened) reduce exhaust gas blowback into the cyilinder (and detonation) of the rsa125 when on part throttle at high rpm.


Also found a link to the wiseman engine, crankshaft looks nice. Not in my power to calculate if this could withstand 15000 or more rpm's + longevity. Fabricating and testing, this I can do.
Is this the crank mechanism you use Flettner?


Certainly looks like it.
Just imagine a bushing around the round rod (guide) and there you have it, tight under piston pump, oil less top end, lightest possible oscillating mass, bigend sees no centrigugal force. And can be balanced I think but will need a balance shaft? Will the gear set stand up to it? I have a fix for that if it happens, if fact I have two more ideas that use different (stronger) gear arangments if needed.

[TerraRoot]

Sorry Terra, thats just me.
But it really isnt true that somehow pressure ( at TDC or BDC ) is even in the same ballpark as the inertia forces of bringing the piston to a stop.
At TDC we have huge combustion pressure - and that cant stop the piston hitting the head past 14500 with 0.75mm clearance.
So the Ryger with its stepped piston compressing the tiny volume above the separator plate has no chance of helping at all.

And re the squish question - the answer lies in the MSV.
If you keep the volume the same, and the squish height the same, then the width that gets the MSV closest to 38M/Sec is the best compromise between
turbulence generation, and the loss of the fuel trapped in the end gas volume that doesnt burn.
But - as the MSV rises,and chamber turbulence goes up increasing flame speed with it, you will need to adjust the ignition timing to optimize for that.

s'allright.

The best thing for all of us will be seeing the Ryger in the wild, explode,win or have clean emissions.

[ken seeber]

Frits, you don't seem to be struggling with the minimum word length anymore!

I'm wondering if it would be better to put the Ryger cylinder and induction/spacer plate onto a 4t bottom end. Say a 250 dirt bike, with it's pressurised oil system?

Sorta annoyed I just had my classic nx4 cases turn up

Seeing it is Astrya day on Tuesday, I thought it appropriate to respond to crbbt....another aussie.

This has been discussed quite a few times and if we do get to understand how it works and it can be packaged onto a 250/450 MX, then a good idea. You can buy them cheap as chips after the top end has shit itself and it is too expensive to repair.
We extended this idea a bit to create the 3 stroke. Get a Harley, remove the original front cylinder and wack on a Ryger kit. The maths being (2+4)/2 = 3.
If nothing else it would have an unusual exh note.:crazy:

[arc100]

Sorry Terra, thats just me.
But it really isnt true that somehow pressure ( at TDC or BDC ) is even in the same ballpark as the inertia forces of bringing the piston to a stop.
At TDC we have huge combustion pressure - and that cant stop the piston hitting the head past 14500 with 0.75mm clearance.
So the Ryger with its stepped piston compressing the tiny volume above the separator plate has no chance of helping at all.

And re the squish question - the answer lies in the MSV.
If you keep the volume the same, and the squish height the same, then the width that gets the MSV closest to 38M/Sec is the best compromise between
turbulence generation, and the loss of the fuel trapped in the end gas volume that doesnt burn.
But - as the MSV rises,and chamber turbulence goes up increasing flame speed with it, you will need to adjust the ignition timing to optimize for that.


Fwiw, the piston only arrives at tdc with compression pressure and low combustion pressure. Max pressure is arrived at somewhere around 16 degree ATDC. If combustion pressure was at or very near max at TDC when the piston needs to be brought to a stop then you would have huge deto. Perhaps the much higher compression pressure with HCCI can help in the force needed to stop the piston. I'm not sure how much pressure is created in the top or the bottom of the Ryger. Just a thought anyway.

[wobbly]

Here is a cylinder pressure trace of a typical high performance 2T.
At TDC we have 85 Bar = 1250 psi,and it continues to rise as is well known to about 15* atdc.
1250 psi cant do anything to stop rod stretch as i said, and if the Ryger has 1/10 of this at BDC ( wild guess ) it is still useless.
Not with standing rods withstand compression forces much better than the inertial stretch at TDC.

[jasonu]

Seeing it is Astrya day on Tuesday, I thought it appropriate to respond to crbbt....another aussie.
:

Happy Australia day to all my Digger mates.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4AchHTN-XQ

[F5 Dave]

Seeing it is Astrya day on Tuesday, I thought it appropriate to respond to crbbt....another aussie.

This has been discussed quite a few times and if we do get to understand how it works and it can be packaged onto a 250/450 MX, then a good idea. You can buy them cheap as chips after the top end has shit itself and it is too expensive to repair.
We extended this idea a bit to create the 3 stroke. Get a Harley, remove the original front cylinder and wack on a Ryger kit. The maths being (2+4)/2 = 3.
If nothing else it would have an unusual exh note.:crazy:
Hahaha, and scare the bjs out of the owner by quadrupling the power output.

[bjorn.clauw.1]

Here is a cylinder pressure trace of a typical high performance 2T.
At TDC we have 85 Bar = 1250 psi,and it continues to rise as is well known to about 15* atdc.
1250 psi cant do anything to stop rod stretch as i said, and if the Ryger has 1/10 of this at BDC ( wild guess ) it is still useless.
Not with standing rods withstand compression forces much better than the inertial stretch at TDC.


Excellent post Wobbly, I'm glad you persevere in trying to explain this to us. Your logic is undeniable. I must admit my mind made some crazy jumps to try and explain the claims when seeing the pictures. Point is, when you think you've figured it out your mind is quitte happy to leave a few questions unanswered :msn-wink:.

Like;

the pressure needed to stop the piston at tdc is more than 250 bar, we would need to beef up the head clamping and structural integrity of the cilinder (a lot)
(Not even trying to think of the pressure needed to stop the piston at bdc with the smaller volume under the piston)

When you slow down the piston at tdc and bdc this cannot be instantaneous. So the procces would have to start quite a few degrees before tdc and bdc.
The piston is connected to the conrod and crankshaft. Wonder what would happen with your rpm's if you slow this assembly down at the end of each stroke?

And say it is possible and we are all proven wrong, when you are at maximum rpm and you would like to stop. Releasing the throttle would surely be a bad idea.

[lucf]

[QUOTE=no quote
[/QUOTE]
no comment

[bjorn.clauw.1]

Certainly looks like it.
Just imagine a bushing around the round rod (guide) and there you have it, tight under piston pump, oil less top end, lightest possible oscillating mass, bigend sees no centrigugal force. And can be balanced I think but will need a balance shaft? Will the gear set stand up to it? I have a fix for that if it happens, if fact I have two more ideas that use different (stronger) gear arangments if needed.

Really nice work, would love to see and hear more on your findings.
Link is to a (lengthy) thesis about the subject, including a chapter on balancing and comparing it to a normal slider crank.

https://www.google.be/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://repository.asu.edu/attachments/93289/content//tmp/package-F7iY4z/Conner_asu_0010N_11270.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwid58LbqsLKAhXDORoKHZsUCn8QFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNE8QNY_HT-rmP1wckRsdSEwUqWByg&sig2=5-c2S0jDx6T1CtffWIA6LQ

Hcci is beyond my grasp at the moment. All the papers I have read use electronics and very fast actuators to control either compression or charge temperature and mixture density. One paper where the compression is fixed and using charge temperature control states a rise from 120°c to 150°c will change the ignition point from 5° after tdc to 15° before tdc. I cannot see how one would combine this with a conventional 2 stroke pipe and carburator. Would like to learn more on this subject.

[Haufen]

Looking at the pictures, homologation documents and reading the information available on the net on various message board, I must admit that, up to now, I fail to see why the Ryger should be able to produce 70hp and how. Anybody with any ideas?


Are the homologation documents of the other KZ engines already publicly available, too? I would love to take a look, but my internet search turned out unseccessfully.

[Flettner]

Really nice work, would love to see and hear more on your findings.
Link is to a (lengthy) thesis about the subject, including a chapter on balancing and comparing it to a normal slider crank.

https://www.google.be/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://repository.asu.edu/attachments/93289/content//tmp/package-F7iY4z/Conner_asu_0010N_11270.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwid58LbqsLKAhXDORoKHZsUCn8QFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNE8QNY_HT-rmP1wckRsdSEwUqWByg&sig2=5-c2S0jDx6T1CtffWIA6LQ

Hcci is beyond my grasp at the moment. All the papers I have read use electronics and very fast actuators to control either compression or charge temperature and mixture density. One paper where the compression is fixed and using charge temperature control states a rise from 120°c to 150°c will change the ignition point from 5° after tdc to 15° before tdc. I cannot see how one would combine this with a conventional 2 stroke pipe and carburator. Would like to learn more on this subject.

bjorn, I don't have papers to back up what I do, I just have a go. So, see why I was interested in the compression route, more control over actual ingition time. The trapped exhaust gas method seems too hard to control, a little hit and miss and I imagine less power (lower BMEP). I have refined my test engine a little and will have another try this week if all goes well. I'll post / video the outcome on the foundry thread.

[wobbly]

Here is the full Ryger pdf, just issued on the cik site.
Oh - I cant upload a 2.35Mb .pdf, why not?

[Muciek]

It has to be under 2Mb. You could package this into zip and make 2 parts. (Using Winrar for example)

[bjorn.clauw.1]

Here is the full Ryger pdf, just issued on the cik site.
Oh - I cant upload a 2.35Mb .pdf, why not?

http://tinyupload.com
Most hassle free solution would be to upload the file here and then post the link (no registration required) if you cannot post a link directly to the original location.
2 mb limit is really small.

[AndreasL]

Here is the full Ryger pdf, just issued on the cik site.
Oh - I cant upload a 2.35Mb .pdf, why not?

:wait:
You killing me wobs. ;)

[wobbly]

OK, here is the download link.

http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=97553338728174353340.

These are the papers that will be needed to race the engine, unlike the partially covered up version on Facebook.

[AndreasL]

Thanks wobbly, but that link seems to be exactly what was posted last week...
Or what am I missing?

[MotleyCrue]

Thanks wobbly, but that link seems to be exactly what was posted last week...
Or what am I missing?

Ya looks the same. Maybe they posted the "good stuff" then unposted it. That certainly wouldn't be a shock. I tell ya if it wasn't for Frits being involved I'd have to call BS on the whole Ryger thing, by the looks of it some Ryger competitors already have. I want to believe but...........the unveiling is a bit of a cluster IMO

[wobbly]

The stuff on Facebook had pages overlapping - and P2 wasnt even there.
But this just confirms the shit fight that is going to happen when the first good tech officer sees that for example the spigot that blocks off
the bottom transfers shown on one page isnt shown on another page - or the Aux ducts in the Ex port shown in one page is missing
in the engine photo,or that a C port is shown in one place but is not there in another.
So whats legal and what isnt.
The rule in KZ2 is that you can remove material from anything shown in the homologation papers ( except the pipe ) but adding anything is very verboten.

[AndreasL]

Wednesday, 13:49, I downloaded all pages from Facebook, pit-lane or if it was even from this site.
Cant remember.
Including page 2.

Was expecting 30-50 detailed pages with measures and tolerances.
Now I'm just confused. How can anyone tune a engine and/or use this document as reference for scrutineering?

Not being in to karts may make me miss the obvious.

Edit: Frits posted them starting here http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130939977#post1130939977

[Muciek]

So the 1st race of the season is that one in Italy or we have to wait more to see this engine in action?

<tbody>
4.02 - 7.02
Adria International
http://www.cikfia.com/fileadmin/flags/CIRCLE_ITA.gifhttp://www.cikfia.com/fileadmin/templates/img/fmask.png
ITA

WSK Champions Cup
OK, OK-Junior, KZ2

</tbody>

[2005bully]

The stuff on Facebook had pages overlapping - and P2 wasnt even there.
But this just confirms the shit fight that is going to happen when the first good tech officer sees that for example the spigot that blocks off
the bottom transfers shown on one page isnt shown on another page - or the Aux ducts in the Ex port shown in one page is missing
in the engine photo,or that a C port is shown in one place but is not there in another.
So whats legal and what isnt.
The rule in KZ2 is that you can remove material from anything shown in the homologation papers ( except the pipe ) but adding anything is very verboten.

Are we to assume that the only criteria applied when inspecting a Ryger piston for legality is MAX. diameter, 2 rings, and an oiling hole?
The document appears to be void of any additional description, material listing, picture, or drawing.
To ASSUME things during tech inspection, usually makes an ASS out of U and ME ........... Kermit Buller

[wobbly]

In KZ2 the basic rules are - the carb is no go - 30mm Dellorto.
The pipe is no go.
The head cc is no go.
The ignition is no go - the static timing is adjustable.
The number of Ex and Trans ports is no go.
The gearbox ratios are no go.
And lastly you cannot add material anywhere.
The piston max size and the pin diameter are stated, but any shape and weight is thus allowed - letting VHM sell radiused timing edge units with
a special insert to suit.

What is allowed is mods to the head shape ( by removing material ) and changes to the port timing to a max Ex stated in the rulebook,measured
using digital protractor and a set size blade stop.
Also reed petals are free, but not the reed block dimensions.
No Ti rods allowed - our techs use a magnet to check.
But you can for example shorten the flange face on the cylinder - this shortens the pipe, without touching the pipe.
The basic components must "look " as they are in the papers, but this then allows "heavy" cranks as used for years in secret by the factories.

So - tuning is open within the elements that are not specifically homologated.

[2005bully]

I am unfamiliar with the tech on any of the CIK shifty engines. But is it correct in this class, the pistons, material, length, shape, etc are not subjected to post race tech?
BTY I cannot find the paperwork on the CIK site. Do you have to be registered to access it?
Thanks... Kermit Buller

[Martin1981]

is it correct in this class, the pistons, material, length, shape, etc are not subjected to post race tech?

Kermit, i looked at many Kart Engine Homologation PDF`s and i never saw a Picture or detailed Information about the Piston. So it is not intentionally hidden by Ryger to keep one of the most interesting Parts (only regarding the Ryger Engine) of the Engine secret. It seems that you just not have to show the Piston or list Details and Dimensions of it in the Homologation Papers.

So in Conclusion one can say for sure, that for the most of us the long waited for Homologation Papers are a mid-big Disappointment because it does not explain how the Ryger Engine works, especially how it makes more than 70 rwhp....if it does at all...

I think when Time has come Frits will explain extensively how it works.

[2005bully]

Kermit, i looked at many Kart Engine Homologation PDF`s and i never saw a Picture or detailed Information about the Piston. So it is not intentionally hidden by Ryger to keep one of the most interesting Parts (only regarding the Ryger Engine) of the Engine secret. It seems that you just not have to show the Piston or list Details and Dimensions of it in the Homologation Papers.

So in Conclusion one can say for sure, that for the most of us the long waited for Homologation Papers are a mid-big Disappointment because it does not explain how the Ryger Engine works, especially how it makes more than 70 rwhp....if it does at all...

I think when Time has come Frits will explain extensively how it works.

Thanks... Kermit Buller

[Grumph]

i think maybe, that if all who looked in on this web site came up with some cash, we could have ordered up a ryger engine... stripped it .. documented it .. and sold it on.. probably for a little profit on top:brick:

Has anyone heard if any magazines are going to follow this path ?

I'm beginning to think that until they're in the hands of the new owners, the Ryger details will remain obscure.
I hope there's not a non disclosure requirement comes with each motor.....

[peewee]

hey guys im making a alloy fuel tank and I want it to be about 5 to 5.5 liters or so. I been trying to find some kind of online calculator that can easily do the math so I can get it in the 5 to 5.5 range the first time but I haven't much luck. do you guys know of any fancy online gadgets that will figure liquid volume of odd shapes ? heres whats its going to look like. the numbers are just generic so you get the idea that its not symmetric from front to back

[TZ350]

I been trying to find some kind of online calculator that can easily do the math so I can get it in the 5 to 5.5 range the first time but I haven't much luck. do you guys know of any fancy online gadgets that will figure liquid volume of odd shapes ?

Not an on line calculator just some basic thought. what you have there is one big box with sides and ends cut off at funny angles.

If you combine the left and right side off cut then you have another square sided box. So the simple solution is to work out the volume of the big box and subtract the volume of the off cut side box. The end boxes are different but are worked out in much the same way by making them boxes but the volume subtracted of each end box is only half.

Anyway think of it as one big box with a lot of small boxes cut off it. You could work out a simple formula or a spread sheet would do it.

[Ocean1]

hey guys im making a alloy fuel tank and I want it to be about 5 to 5.5 liters or so. I been trying to find some kind of online calculator that can easily do the math so I can get it in the 5 to 5.5 range the first time but I haven't much luck. do you guys know of any fancy online gadgets that will figure liquid volume of odd shapes ? heres whats its going to look like. the numbers are just generic so you get the idea that its not symmetric from front to back

123333333 (+/- 0.1) cubic millimeters

:bleh:

[husaberg]

hey guys im making a alloy fuel tank and I want it to be about 5 to 5.5 liters or so. I been trying to find some kind of online calculator that can easily do the math so I can get it in the 5 to 5.5 range the first time but I haven't much luck. do you guys know of any fancy online gadgets that will figure liquid volume of odd shapes ? heres whats its going to look like. the numbers are just generic so you get the idea that its not symmetric from front to back

Make a dummy out of Polystyrene and work out its displacement Archimedes style.
Or just measure the area you can of it as a square or rectangle and then average out the additional area into a square or a rectangle.
When I just to measure odd shaped paddocks I just used to break them into shapes I could easily measure. (Pre GIS)

[Frits Overmars]

123333333 (+/- 0.1) cubic millimetersYour forum name gives it away Ocean1: you think big when it comes to fluids. But somehow I doubt if Peewees tank will hold 123 liters. I'd say 122,5 at the most.
What are you going to use that tank for, Peewee? A motor home ?

[tjbw]

Your forumname gives it away Ocean1: you think big when it comes to fluids. But somehow I doubt if Peewees tank will hold 123 liters.

Oh dear, I must be wrong too ;)

My 10 second, very approximate calc was 129l, assuming original units are cm.

[Frits Overmars]

Link is to a (lengthy) thesis about the subject, including a chapter on balancing and comparing it to a normal slider crank.
http://www.google.be/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://repository.asu.edu/attachments/93289/content//tmp/package-F7iY4z/Conner_asu_0010N_11270.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwid58LbqsLKAhXDORoKHZsUCn8QFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNE8QNY_HT-rmP1wckRsdSEwUqWByg&sig2=5-c2S0jDx6T1CtffWIA6LQ (https://www.google.be/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://repository.asu.edu/attachments/93289/content//tmp/package-F7iY4z/Conner_asu_0010N_11270.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwid58LbqsLKAhXDORoKHZsUCn8QFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNE8QNY_HT-rmP1wckRsdSEwUqWByg&sig2=5-c2S0jDx6T1CtffWIA6LQ) Downloading this thesis may take hours (you can finally take that bath) but if you really want to know about hypocycloid engines, it is worth the wait!

[AndreasL]

127.5 liters if the "back" is vertical and all lengths are perpendicular to this surface.
According to Catia that is...and after correcting the units from the "default" mm to cm. ;)

And there I found my mistake and crawl back under my rock... :brick:
123.3l is a nice number.

Cant run Catia on my iPhone so if a 3D model is of any use you can send a PM.

[2005bully]

Downloading this thesis may take hours (you can finally take that bath) but if you really want to know about hypocycloid engines, it is worth the wait!

Frits... Very interesting read. The concept fits so well with the Ryger design. Unfortunately after quite a bit of research, It appears no one yet has found a simple solution to all of the mechanical considerations.
Hopefully Flettner is finding a break through. Kermit Buller

[speedpro]

This is how it works with Flettner
First - build a 100cc version of whatever marvel you are interested in
2 - build a bigger(500CC ish) version to power a gyro copter
3 - his wife finds out about #2
4 - he goes to work on the next marvel of thinking and mechanical genius.

[wobbly]

Speed, you forgot line 3A about Flettner.
3A - Posts engine photos scarring the world with glimpses of his pornographic knees.

[Flettner]

This is how it works with Flettner
First - build a 100cc version of whatever marvel you are interested in
2 - build a bigger(500CC ish) version to power a gyro copter
3 - his wife finds out about #2
4 - he goes to work on the next marvel of thinking and mechanical genius.

Ha Ha, yes the wife is not too keen on my home made gyro engine. But what? rely on a Rotax? I don't think so!

[RAW]

Interesting

[TerraRoot]

Very interesting!
http://citsengine.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/ScreenHunter_245-Feb.-03-21.35.jpg
wonder what the prototype bottom end was?

[DoldGuy]

And re the squish question - the answer lies in the MSV.
If you keep the volume the same, and the squish height the same, then the width that gets the MSV closest to 38M/Sec is the best compromise between
turbulence generation, and the loss of the fuel trapped in the end gas volume that doesnt burn.
But - as the MSV rises,and chamber turbulence goes up increasing flame speed with it, you will need to adjust the ignition timing to optimize for that.


Lurker here making his first post, have greatly enjoyed the vast knowledge all have shared.

Wobbly, I had to question the MSV value of 38M/sec, my old TSR software states values to be between 15-30 depending on application (stump puller or RPM rever). Is this high MSV the normal target range for a high BMEP build & pull timing out to keep the heat in the pipe? I never have had a head cut with that design & curious if I'm that far off. Also, like that KTM road racer bunches, does the Dyno agree with the simulation?

[mr bucketracer]

Interestinglooks like someone has bet ryger to it

[wobbly]

The TSR numbers are based on very old ignition system input.
That 38 M/Sec number is based on a huge data base of engines that use digital ECU, where we normally see
say 28* of timing under the pipe, 15* at peak power, then enough retard as is necessary to obtain the rev on.
How the squish is set for max efficiency is the clearance is set to the minimum possible to just prevent contact at peak rpm
then the width is determined by the MSV number.
In a race 125 going to 14500, we get 0.75mm gap with 48% squish area.

[Larry Wiechman]

Is that 38 M/Sec at peak torque, peak HP or maximum RPM?

[wobbly]

Peak power.

[Lightbulb]

some more of the CITS engine here,

http://citsengine.com.au/?page_id=274

It is a pdf of the parts.

http://citsengine.com.au/?page_id=163

[Ocean1]

Your forum name gives it away Ocean1: you think big when it comes to fluids.

Rhino3D hydrostatics are a bit crude. How hard can it be to include an option to output volumes in Litres or cubic Metres? :facepalm:


Oh dear, I must be wrong too ;)

My 10 second, very approximate calc was 129l, assuming original units are cm.


127.5 liters if the "back" is vertical and all lengths are perpendicular to this surface.
According to Catia that is...and after correcting the units from the "default" mm to cm. ;)

And there I found my mistake and crawl back under my rock... :brick:
123.3l is a nice number.

Cant run Catia on my iPhone so if a 3D model is of any use you can send a PM.

I made an arbitrary guess re the end panel angles based on the side elevation.

Some modeling app's have mobile versions but the ones I'm aware of are just mesh viewers, no geometry.

[peewee]

Make a dummy out of Polystyrene and work out its displacement Archimedes style.
Or just measure the area you can of it as a squere or rectangle and then average out the additional area into a square or a rectangle.
When I just to measure odd paddocks I just used to brake them into shapes I could easily measure. (Pre GIS)

not long after i posted i realized i could make a dummy from plexiglass fairly easily. this may be the fastest way as my math skills arent very good

frits it may as well be a motorhome since it isnt even running yet :lol: when i find some time ill get photos

[SwePatrick]

Interesting

I posted this earlier in thread, but no one gave it much attention :(

[bjorn.clauw.1]

Ha Ha, yes the wife is not too keen on my home made gyro engine. But what? rely on a Rotax? I don't think so!

Hi flettner, don't know if you have found this (again lengthy) study on hcci. It applies the principle to an existing 2 stroke. Makes for some interesting reading.

https://www.google.be/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://firebrand.me.berkeley.edu/thesis/chen_thesis.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiqtJO9pcfKAhUKWBQKHX0CBDAQFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNGGwXmjgpBSqnGWjcYbvVkzCqo2pw&sig2=GHGFJqbExm0aQkfYmpyUXg

[Frits Overmars]

Hi flettner, don't know if you have found this (again lengthy) thesis on hcci. It applies the principle to an existing 2 stroke. Makes for some interesting reading.
http://www.google.be/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://firebrand.me.berkeley.edu/thesis/chen_thesis.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiqtJO9pcfKAhUKWBQKHX0CBDAQFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNGGwXmjgpBSqnGWjcYbvVkzCqo2pw&sig2=GHGFJqbExm0aQkfYmpyUXg (https://www.google.be/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://firebrand.me.berkeley.edu/thesis/chen_thesis.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiqtJO9pcfKAhUKWBQKHX0CBDAQFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNGGwXmjgpBSqnGWjcYbvVkzCqo2pw&sig2=GHGFJqbExm0aQkfYmpyUXg)
Another paper worth reading. Keep 'm coming Bjorn :niceone:.

[jfn2]

I asked this in another forum and I'll post it here.
What is the general consensus about how this engine makes better power? Is it from the HCCI combustion process, or due to the piston compression process of the smaller lower cylinder volume?
Also am I wrong in thinking that this engine still needs good blowdown timing since it still is using a rather large divergent pipe therefore still needing the sub exhaust ports?

[JanBros]

it doesn't have sub exhaust ports, maybe this will help you figure out the answer ;)
(I'm not smart enough to give the real answer :facepalm:)

[2005bully]

Some of those directly involved with the project are certainly more adept in answering your question. So this might be going out on a limb. First off we know that the peak power of a conventional 2 stroke relies heavily on the draw from the pipe, we also know in current configurations large case volumes often increase power, and they do so by having a greater volume of mixture available for the pipe to draw from the crankcase. If the primary pump volume were reduced to be ridiculously small, then as the transfer ports open the mixture enters the cylinder with a lot of velocity. Since there is only a small volume available this transfer happens very quickly. (Remember Newtons law where matter in motion wants to stay in motion?) This low volume high velocity mass that has been transferred wants to stay moving, and creates a low pressure behind it in the small primary pump volume. Since the primary pump volume is fed by the reed cage this low pressure reopens the reed valves and pulls additional mixture straight into the cylinder. This additional mixture is delivered to the cylinder with out any mechanical pumping losses. Much of the same principle as how pulse jets operate. Since the most obvious advantage of the concept relies on velocity, the effect would become greater as the velocity is increased.... i.e. higher rpm's.... Hope this answers your questions and feeds more discussion...... Kermit Buller

[Flettner]

Some of those directly involved with the project are certainly more adept in answering your question. So this might be going out on a limb. First off we know that the peak power of a conventional 2 stroke relies heavily on the draw from the pipe, we also know in current configurations large case volumes often increase power, and they do so by having a greater volume of mixture available for the pipe to draw from the crankcase. If the primary pump volume were reduced to be ridiculously small, then as the transfer ports open the mixture enters the cylinder with a lot of velocity. Since there is only a small volume available this transfer happens very quickly. (Remember Newtons law where matter in motion wants to stay in motion?) This low volume high velocity mass that has been transferred wants to stay moving, and creates a low pressure behind it in the small primary pump volume. Since the primary pump volume is fed by the reed cage this low pressure reopens the reed valves and pulls additional mixture straight into the cylinder. This additional mixture is delivered to the cylinder with out any mechanical pumping losses. Much of the same principle as how pulse jets operate. Since the most obvious advantage of the concept relies on velocity, the effect would become greater as the velocity is increased.... i.e. higher rpm's.... Hope this answers your questions and feeds more discussion...... Kermit Buller

I described this process as augmentation, but you word the process much clearer, thank you.

[MotleyCrue]

Do we know for 100% certain that ALL of the flow from the back end of the carb goes through the reed ? The integrity of the drawings is a bit suspect. Is it possible that only some of the flow goes through the reed ?

[Peter1962]

Do we know for 100% certain that ALL of the flow from the back end of the carb goes through the reed ? The integrity of the drawings is a bit suspect. Is it possible that only some of the flow goes through the reed ?

Are you referring to a system comparable to the 1977 suzuki RG 50 with its mix of reed valve and piston port induction ?
But the part of the mixture that does not pas by the reed valve, would need some sort of compression, otherwise it would just be a new application of a technique from almost 40 years ago ?

[MotleyCrue]

Are you referring to a system comparable to the 1977 suzuki RG 50 with its mix of reed valve and piston port induction ?
But the part of the mixture that does not pas by the reed valve, would need some sort of compression, otherwise it would just be a new application of a technique from almost 40 years ago ?

I'm not familiar with the RG50.

I was thinking the piston ported portion of the flow would go under the Ryger piston and be highly compressed by the Ryger piston exiting either all or certain transfers into the cylinder. The reeded portion of the flow would not be compressed by the piston but would operate primarily with exhaust suction through several or all transfers in the cylinder. That way the reed could be accessed by the B and C transfers and maybe the A transfers too, very quickly with the shortest possible route reed to cylinder while still having the high under the piston compression feature.

The reed would be positioned so as not to block or interfere with any of the piston ported flow. The reed wouldn't flow anything until well after the piston ported flow stopped. The piston ported flow would stop going under the piston at maybe 70 degrees after TDC and the reed flow wouldn't start until BDC or so. Am I missing something ?

[TZ350]

Ha ... time for page 1450 links list ....


Pumper carbs are a lot more complex than you would think. The 3 main tuning variables are pop off pressure, diaphragm lever height, and needle positions. What are these variables at the moment - if you dont know, and or cant change all these,then you can't tune one.

If you can tune the top end OK with the H needle, but need the L out too far to get response off idle then you need to drop the pop off a couple of psi.

This will then allow much less L needle but still be rich enough to accelerate off idle.
But then the H needle will need to go in some to lean off the top end.



Thanks a bunch Wobbly. Your reply guided me into tuning popoff pressure, I have ordered a lot of different springs, i´m waiting for those.

A pair of old nail clippers is great for snipping a bit of the spring.

319149


I got my hands on 1985 or 86 KX250 cylinder and main ehx (bridged) port floor is raised 4mm (stroke is 65mm and floor is on 61) transfers starts on 65, but it looks like they dropped that idea later. Wobbly I have bought servo from R1 but I don't have original connector could You tell me what is the pinout?

319176


Yep, the top 3 are the servo position pins.
Lh = sensor earth, mid = sevo position out, Rh= +5V

Lower pair are the servo motor power from ecu.
Run a 3 pin and a 2 pin plug for each, back to the ecu so you can program it easily.

[wobbly]

Can anyone explain how we get mixture transfer from the high compression volume under the piston, into the lower duct entrances
when the seal spigot shown completely blocks them off.

[tjbw]

Can anyone explain how we get mixture transfer from the high compression volume under the piston, into the lower duct entrances
when the seal spigot shown completely blocks them off.

The section and development drawings are not to scale!

[Flettner]

Can anyone explain how we get mixture transfer from the high compression volume under the piston, into the lower duct entrances
when the seal spigot shown completely blocks them off.

Yes Wobbly, I think we all agree these are piss poor drawings, centainly NOT accurate. So I think we still just have to make it up ourselves, design somthing around Kermits description and you will have a rocket (pules jet anyway) I think.
I have a cylinder pattern sitting on the bench along these lines but FOS style, I've been unsure whether to go ahead with it or not, now I'm keen to finish it. It uses a high pressure under piston pump and augmentation.
Ken S has made and run an FOS cylinder 40 years ago, it worked then, on a standard crank case.

[Norman]

Yes Wobbly, I think we all agree these are piss poor drawings, centainly NOT accurate. So I think we still just have to make it up ourselves, design somthing around Kermits description and you will have a rocket (pules jet anyway) I think.
I have a cylinder pattern sitting on the bench along these lines but FOS style, I've been unsure whether to go ahead with it or not, now I'm keen to finish it. It uses a high pressure under piston pump and augmentation.
Ken S has made and run an FOS cylinder 40 years ago, it worked then, on a standard crank case.

It is just a guess, but I think that this drawing is not cut through the center of the cylinder and that makes things look even worse...The other dimensioned drawings suggests a 3 mm gap around the circumference, maybe this is enough considering that the piston increases the pressure on its way down?

[lodgernz]

It is just a guess, but I think that this drawing is not cut through the center of the cylinder and that makes things look even worse...The other dimensioned drawings suggests a 3 mm gap around the circumference, maybe this is enough considering that the piston increases the pressure on its way down?

Yes, other drawings show an annular gap at that point, as there has to be to accommodate the exhaust cover part of the upper piston.

[WilDun]

Flettner,
Revisiting the 'Crecy' style engine, did you come to any conclusions on the ringless sealing at the top of the recriprocating cylinder liner?

[Flettner]

Flettner,
Revisiting the 'Crecy' style engine, did you come to any conclusions on the ringless sealing at the top of the recriprocating cylinder liner?

It hasn't been tested under real load but the engine is in bits getting the cases machined to accept the YZ gearbox. On inspection the sleeve looks nice, no hot spots and just a little shinny around the top of the sleeve that says it's expanded out to the alloy cylinder to dump it's heat. Need some time to make up an exhaust system, probably have a go at hydraulicly making it? I was thinking about a system (linkage) where by the sleeve travel could be shortened at low speed, to throttle the transfers like Ken and I are doing with the FOS cylinders.

[ken seeber]

Ken S has made and run an FOS cylinder 40 years ago, it worked then, on a standard crank case.

Crap Neil, it was only 35 years ago. :shit:
Well, let the good wife drag you away for a few days and come back.......jeez you guys have been busy. Hard to work out where to post at present, ESE or Foundry. All good stuff though. Haven't seen any definitive Ryger solutions though.
Anyways the sliding cylinder is coming along (slowly of course), bit of cleaning up required and then off for a splash of Nikasil. When back, break out the dividing head for the O ring grooves on the cylinder around the 3* exh ports and the 3*exh ports in the water jacket. In twixt times, it's making up al large adapter plate for the reed fed crankcases.

319128

[WilDun]

Yes Ken, the two forums are a little intertwined just now but still relevant on both (so long as you can post your casting stuff on the foundry thread as well Neil). - there is a lot of head scratching going on with the Ryger at the moment, so why not!
I feel that Ken's engine and all Neil's engines could end up morphing into one very good engine - a 'bitza' - just like the two threads!

[ken seeber]

Can anyone explain how we get mixture transfer from the high compression volume under the piston, into the lower duct entrances
when the seal spigot shown completely blocks them off.
Wob, can't answer this one, but I can say when one has a close look at the pic, it is clear (by the coarse jagged lines) that the valve plate, non piston ring rings, the additional transfer ports and some areas of the read valve cavity have been done in Paint on top of the original VM cylinder homologation drawing. So, really anything can be anywhere with this level of drawing change....not much better than a hand scribble.

However, it is clear that no additional reeds are used in the valve plate, so there must be some neat gas dynamics going on..

Now we have been questioning the auxiliary exh ports and can see the actual cylinder ports have been removed, but not the re-entrant side ports in the main passage. Is it possible that these are connected to the 2 front low level transfer ports, not the 4 that feed the A and B passages? So, on exhaust opening, there is a very high exit velocity on the exh passage. So with a bit of Bernoulli, is it possible that there is a depression created in these passages and allow a huge quantity of mixture to be drawn out thru the under piston volume and also the reed (24/7) and pass out the exhaust? So rather than a little bit of mixture being drawn out from the normal 5 transfer ports when on the pipe, we are talking about shitloads of mixture. This then ultimately gets pushed back into the cylinder by the pipe, as per normal. So, possibly a much greater trapped volume purity in the cylinder giving:
1. More power
2. The cooler pipe
3. Worse fuel consumption and emissions due to the much greater potential of unburnt mixture loss.

Dreaming?

[Grumph]

Ken, the port diagram in the homologation papers shows a wide port entry below the exhaust. This would be timed by the piston skirt which extends full length in this area. It may as you suggest lead to the side entries in the ex duct. It could very possibly give a short suction pulse to the under piston volume.

[jfn2]

wobbly;
If you zoom in on the picture that shows the bottom of the cylinder, (the picture that has the cylinder , the head, a case half and the top of the cases), you'll see there are windows cut into the bottom inside of the cylinder at the normal transfer cut out area. Knowing that the cylinder has cut outs around the inside bottom, there has to be a channel around the inside bottom of the cylinder. When the piston descends it forces the mixture into these port windows and around the channel at the bottom into the transfer ports.

[Flettner]

Downloading this thesis may take hours (you can finally take that bath) but if you really want to know about hypocycloid engines, it is worth the wait!

Perhaps not the results I might have hoped for.:no:
But hey what do they know?

[bjorn.clauw.1]

Perhaps not the results I might have hoped for.:no:
But hey what do they know?

Sure whenever a gears is introduced there is some power loss because off the added friction. Butt they didn't adress the changed volume off their crankcase, also the exhaust pipe used is far from optimal. And because you will be sealing off the crankcase you can make a proper exhaust for your design . Think it can make a lot more power this way. The bearings between the small crank and big crank got me worried a bit. Since they are counter rotating the bearings will 'see' double rpm's.