ESE's works engine tuner

[bjorn.clauw.1]

319143319144

This is what I 'think' i see :rolleyes:

Pic2
1. Under the piston there is a 3mm window all around, the same height as the lower transfers (minus the area where the skirt goes in the plate) for the piston to push the charge through the lower transfers.
1a. When the piston is at tdc the skirt area (red) opens up the transfer under the exhaust with the other ones into the cilinder (the sides are always connected to the other transfers, Pic1 1)

Pic1
1. The transfer under the exhaust is a semicircle that loops and connects the left lower transfers to the right ones.
1a. X-ray goggles are broken so no way of telling if this transfer is connect to the exhaust. (I like the bernoilli/venturi idea posted above)
Would be hard to get this connected to the exhaust duct due the location of the water cooling channels though.
2. Normal intake port goes straight in (rotax style) and is closed from the cilinder above the piston at bdc (as usual). Normal C transfer port above the intake.
2b. Boyesen ports from intake into the lower transfer ports (you can see the rounded curves where they enter on the right transfers)
If there were no boyesen ports, why would the dividerwalls between the transfer ducts not be flush with the bottom of the cilinder?
3. Maybe just me, I think the conventional transfers open when the exhaust is fully opened (top of transfer port same height as bottom of exhaust port).
Don't think they raised the port as a whole, just filled in the bottom, maybe not all the way to the top of the transfers but still a considerable amount.

Again, all just visual observations from a low-res, bad angle picture.


Edit: like this
319145

Nevermind my drawing skills :facepalm: drawn on my phone during lunchbreak.

[bjorn.clauw.1]

Hmmm, L plate rider doesn't sound so bad right now...

[F5 Dave]

You can change that in profile settings when you have a few posts under your belt

[Norman]

When the piston moves from TDC to BDC the outlet transfers (upper windows) are open and the mixture should to some extent move in that way. This route is not closed until the lower edge of the piston reaches the lower side of the transfers. Right? It's therefore less mixture left that needs to be squeezed through the 3 mm gap at the transfer (lower) inlets?

[jfn2]

bjorn.clauw;
Yes I agree with you. The intake has to be connected with either boyesen ports or open into the channel around the bottom into the transfers. With that said the rest of the cycle is like any other 2-stroke. It still needs good blowdown time and area and it needs a good exhaust port design and pipe. Keep in mind that these people wanted a cleaner burning engine 1st and any performance gain is 2nd. It wouldn't surprise me if the ruling federation told them to tame the engine down by eliminating the sub exhaust ports to keep the power in line with other engines.
My way of thinking is that the piston (squeezing the smallish lower cylinder volume) is acting like a supercharger and this is where the power is coming from.
I'm sure the HCCI helps. But I also think it would work just as well with a regular ign system, maybe not as clean burning. But I could be wrong.:blink:
Just my thoughts!

[Larry Wiechman]

Restricted or throttled exhaust port area is a key feature of HCCI systems.

[136kg136ps]

Larry,could that be the anonymous lump in the exhaust drawing?
It would seem that lump would heat the mixture returning from the pipe.

[Norman]

Restricted or throttled exhaust port area is a key feature of HCCI systems.

Could a pipe be tuned so that it pushes the mixture back in together with exhaust gas? A pipe tuned for HCCI? Then it would not be cooled of that much as if it would return below the piston.

[Larry Wiechman]

Larry,could that be the anonymous lump in the exhaust drawing?
It would seem that lump would heat the mixture returning from the pipe.


I don't have much faith in the drawings that have been provided.

[yesyes]

the power comes from very high Rpm ; how to deal with piston speed well above known limits for a reliable 125 two stroke ??

[tjbw]

Larry,could that be the anonymous lump in the exhaust drawing?
It would seem that lump would heat the mixture returning from the pipe.

There is no lump in the exhaust.

What you see on the "Section View Of Cylinder Drawing" is an artefact from a previous triple exhaust port design, m4r suggested this earlier.

[Tunisti]

To quote myself:

So, is there connection between the wide "Ryger port" below the exhaust port and the assumed ducts on the side walls of the exhaust duct? If so, It´d change the concept of short circuiting for good.

As said, I somehow tend to believe that fresh mixture is intentionally introduced into the exhaust duct. Could it allow the HCCI to take place, or could it amplify the pulse actions in the pipe, or could it be some kind of mobile "catalytic conventer", which would keep the emissions in strict bounds? Or could it be all that at the same time?

The timing of the port below the exhaust, seems to be controlled by the skirt of the piston. Therefore I´d say that the port is not for "traditional scavenging". But, if we think the Ryger's peak power rpm vs. pipe lenght vs. exhaust port timing, we can see that there must be somewhat high temperatures/pressures in the exhaust pipe, just to work satisfactionary at such rpm's. What if there was mixture burning inside the exhaust pipe? Wouldn't the pressure and temperature be higher, thus raising the pipe's rpm-band? As mentioned earlier, Ryger tends to run somewhat cool, and therefore there would not be enough heat to keep the pipe super hot for such rpm numbers?

Or what if the (assumed) fresh mixture burning in the pipe would create artificial " extra pressure wave" to charge the cylinder even more with somewhat fresh mixture, before the exhaust would close up. The combustion of such mixture would be much slower and placid compared to the combustion at combustion chamber. Therefore there could be somewhat stabile "extra pulse" created by the combustion in the exhaust pipe.:rolleyes:

[wobbly]

The problem is that if " 3 port " ducts are shown in the section drawing, but they are not there in the engine - then any technical inspector
can quite rightly make the assumption a "tuner " has filled these in, thus you get failed in tech.
Rule Number 1 in KZ2 - you are NOT allowed to add material anywhere.

[tjbw]

The problem is that if " 3 port " ducts are shown in the section drawing, but they are not there in the engine - then any technical inspector
can quite rightly make the assumption a "tuner " has filled these in, thus you get failed in tech.
Rule Number 1 in KZ2 - you are NOT allowed to add material anywhere.

The inspector could see from "Photo Of Base Of Cylinder", and "Drawing Of Cylinder Development" that there is only one exhaust port, and this is as stated on page 2 of the homologation.

Regarding the apparent duct in the exhaust port, shown on the "Section View Of Cylinder" they could state that that was a raised feature for anti-detonation which they had removed.

[tjbw]

To quote myself:


As said, I somehow tend to believe that fresh mixture is intentionally introduced into the exhaust duct. Could it allow the HCCI to take place, or could it amplify the pulse actions in the pipe, or could it be some kind of mobile "catalytic conventer", which would keep the emissions in strict bounds? Or could it be all that at the same time?

The timing of the port below the exhaust, seems to be controlled by the skirt of the piston. Therefore I´d say that the port is not for "traditional scavenging". But, if we think the Ryger's peak power rpm vs. pipe lenght vs. exhaust port timing, we can see that there must be somewhat high temperatures/pressures in the exhaust pipe, just to work satisfactionary at such rpm's. What if there was mixture burning inside the exhaust pipe? Wouldn't the pressure and temperature be higher, thus raising the pipe's rpm-band? As mentioned earlier, Ryger tends to run somewhat cool, and therefore there would not be enough heat to keep the pipe super hot for such rpm numbers?

Or what if the (assumed) fresh mixture burning in the pipe would create artificial " extra pressure wave" to charge the cylinder even more with somewhat fresh mixture, before the exhaust would close up. The combustion of such mixture would be much slower and placid compared to the combustion at combustion chamber. Therefore there could be somewhat stabile "extra pulse" created by the combustion in the exhaust pipe.:rolleyes:

Take a look at pic1 in posting above by bjorn.clauw.1, this shows that there is an annular transfer space connecting the port below the exhaust to the other transfer ports.

[Grumph]

I don't have much faith in the drawings that have been provided.

Something of an understatement I feel...

Given too that a standard kart ignition is fitted - and apparently working - I feel that you can rule out any HCCI at least in this version.
By the admittedly convoluted reasoning of the kart rules, if ignition didn't take place in the legal fashion, it wouldn't have been homologated.

[tjbw]

Something of an understatement I feel...

Given too that a standard kart ignition is fitted - and apparently working - I feel that you can rule out any HCCI at least in this version.
By the admittedly convoluted reasoning of the kart rules, if ignition didn't take place in the legal fashion, it wouldn't have been homologated.

This is what the CIK regulations say:

"For the KZ1 and KZ2 categories, the ignition system used must be of analogue type and any variable ignition system (system of progressive advance and delay) is forbidden"

If an engine has a homologated ignition, yet achieves HCCI without hardware to vary the timing, then I don't see how that would be against the rules.

[Flettner]

Could a pipe be tuned so that it pushes the mixture back in together with exhaust gas? A pipe tuned for HCCI? Then it would not be cooled of that much as if it would return below the piston.

Remember the exhaust is standard, so if you are making more power, more heat, more gas flow. The tail pipe stays the same size, more gas pressure has to excit this pipe so the pressure MUST be higher than a standard system. Certainly the heat retained in the cylinder (pressure / temp) must be higher at elevated rpm. This MUST be what sets the HCCI off. If there is a spark and it starts the burn at certain time, as the engine gets to real high rpm I would say the HCCI condition will have over taken the normal slow (by comparision) burn, even if the burn has already started. Spark ignition is for when the gas pressure in the pipe is under normal pressures, say up to 13,000 RPM ish. Normal engine goes flat at these rev's due to lost blow down time / area and lack of real crank case pumping pressure but in this Ryger system the crank case (under piston) will still force fuel air into the cylinder no mater how much residual pressure is left behind (within reason). So the Ryger engine can enter conditions previously unknown. These previously unknown conditions I think is what sets off the HCCI as I said. But boy it must be hard to control without being able to change the cylinder head volume, on the fly, (Ken).
And as the exhaust pressure increases, the pulse wave will travel faster.

[DoldGuy]

Does anyone know the crankcase volume of the VM motor? I would think it to be in the 250cc-275cc range. The design of the Ryger intake with 6 ports seems to have plenty of area to accommodate this volume & remember reading a post (by Frits if memory serves) you want the charge as accessible to the transfers as possible, and the Ryger does just that, as all of the charge is right there at the transfers tunnels.

[TZ350]

And as I have said a dozen times on here, its only in lawnmowers that the dropping piston has anything to do with promoting flow
from the conventional case - thru the transfers,as there is more pressure above than there is below the piston at TPO.
The Ryger is using a very small trapped volume, that is compressed substantially by the larger diameter piston portion.
Thus it simply doesnt need a ton of blowdown to reduce the combustion pressure above the transfers, and as well it doesnt need the big negative pressure
ratio created by the diffuser to pull mixture into the cylinder when the piston is at BDC.
So a single Ex port seems entirely reasonable and expected.
The top end workings I believe we have pretty much guessed the trickery, as for the 30,000 rpm capable bottom end - darkness and guessing are really confusing
and we are not even close to reality yet.



Thanks a bunch Wobbly. Your reply guided me into tuning popoff pressure, I have ordered a lot of different springs, i´m waiting for those.

A pair of old nail clippers is great for snipping a bit of the spring.

319149

[wobbly]

The problem with cutting the spring to achieve a set " pop off " is that although you have reduced static pressure on the needle
and seat , you have also reduced the number of turns of spring.
Thus you then have increased the rate of the spring as the diaphragm opens the valve, and this then leans off the fuel flow curve the further
off the seat the spring allows the needle to move.
In most cases this is exactly what isnt needed.
Thus selecting a lower/higher spring rate is far more an reliable method of changing the transition tuning via reducing or increasing the static pop off pressure.
Small changes can be made by simply squashing/or stretching the set spring length, but cutting introduces another sometimes unwanted variable - be aware.

[SwePatrick]

I have tuned it a bit now, runs smoother on idle, but as there is no venturi in this carb i figure it will work better on a engine with bigger displacement.
An engine that pulls more air before getting into the pipe so to speak.
I still have this HUGE gap in power when giving it full throttle, it just dies, no fuel is drawn into airstream, until i hit ~11000rpm(when the pipe is pulling hard)

I feel it´s the drawback on this model of carb, it´s a 'slide' model.

Rgds.

[SwePatrick]

About HCCI and that stuff on Ryger engine.
The transferport underneeth the exhaust that connects to the other ports.
Here´s my thought that might trigger HCCI without getting dirty gasses back into cylinder:

As the spigot prodtrudes into the area of the lower ports the freshgasses are forced to be drawn equal in every port down below.
In that way gasses that are exposed to heat underneeth exhaustport is heated up as the heat in the pipe rises.(there no water between lower transfer and exhaustport in my thought)
This on high rpm is building avalanche effect and the heat rises almost to self ignite temp.
And when piston compresses in cmobustionroom it will self ignite.

I had to think that everything drawn on homologisationreport must be correct and in that way find a 'harmony' in the engine.

This is a little touch of Smokey Yunick´s creation(hot vapor) that is held in mystery.
But it´s a drawback,, heating up the combustion is getting good burn, but it will increase NOX gasses insanely high.

Rgds.

[G Jones]

hey guys im making a alloy fuel tank and I want it to be about 5 to 5.5 liters or so. I been trying to find some kind of online calculator that can easily do the math so I can get it in the 5 to 5.5 range the first time but I haven't much luck. do you guys know of any fancy online gadgets that will figure liquid volume of odd shapes ? heres whats its going to look like. the numbers are just generic so you get the idea that its not symmetric from front to backHi - is this any use ?
http://www.custompartnet.com/quick-tool/weight-calculator

[Frits Overmars]

the power comes from very high RpmState of the art is Jan Thiel's Aprilia RSA with 54 hp @ 13000 rpm. If that Aprilia could rev to 17000 rpm without loss of Brake Mean Effective Pressure, it would produce 70.6 hp; same as the Ryger. In other words: the Ryger doesn't just rev, it also reaches the same high level of BMEP at 17000 rpm that the Aprilia reaches at 13000 rpm.


If there is a spark and it starts the burn at certain time, as the engine gets to real high rpm I would say the HCCI condition will have over taken the normal slow (by comparision) burn.When the engine gets to those high revs, the exhaust note changes; the engine really starts singing. It's a lovely sound.


Does anyone know the crankcase volume of the VM motor? I would think it to be in the 250cc-275cc range. The only sensible way to express the crankcase volume of a two-stroke is with the piston at TDC and with the total volume of the transfer ducts included.
I don't know the VM's volume, but at TDC it will probably be more than 500 cc. For reference: the Aprilia RSW with side-mounted inlet disc had 650 cc; the RSA with rear-mounted disc and longer con rod had 675 cc.

[Peter1962]

State of the art is Jan Thiel's Aprilia RSA with 54 hp @ 13000 rpm. If that Aprilia could rev to 17000 rpm without loss of cylinder filling, it would produce 70.6 hp; same as the Ryger. In other words: the Ryger does not only rev, it also reaches the same high level of cylinder filling at 17000 rpm that the Aprilia reaches at 13000 rpm.

When the engine gets to those high revs, the exhaust note changes; the engine really starts singing. It's a lovely sound.

The only sensible way to express the crankcase volume of a two-stroke is with the piston at TDC and with the total volume of the transfer ducts included.
I don't know the VM's volume, but at TDC it will probably be more than 500 cc. For reference: the Aprilia RSW with side-mounted inlet disc had 650 cc; the RSA with rear-mounted disc and longer con rod had 675 cc.

Frits, are you allowed to comment on the power curve of the Ryger, say between 10.000 rpm and 13.000 rpm, compared with the same curve of the RSA ?

[Flatout]

Frits could HCCI be controlled with the electronically pulsed power jet and fuel octane? Have the power jet fed with a much higher octane fuel than the main jet with a knock sensor controlling the pulse?

[Frits Overmars]

Frits could HCCI be controlled with the electronically pulsed power jet and fuel octane? Have the power jet fed with a much higher octane fuel than the main jet with a knock sensor controlling the pulse?How do you figure that? If you close the power jet, the mixture will be leaner but HCCI does not care. In that respect it's like a diesel: as long as there's fuel, it'll burn.
If you open the power jet, you'll introduce a fuel that is more HCCI-resistant, but that won't stop the regular fuel from igniting. And this will ignite the high-octane stuff as well, raising the EGT. But if you intend to raise the EGT, you'd better give it some more regular fuel; it's cheaper.
Keeping the HCCI under control could work if you were to administer too much fuel for the available oxygen, so part of it would not burn but just act like an internal liquid coolant. But that would kill the HCCI's fuel economy and its relatively clean exhaust.

[MotleyCrue]

State of the art is Jan Thiel's Aprilia RSA with 54 hp @ 13000 rpm. If that Aprilia could rev to 17000 rpm without loss of cylinder filling, it would produce 70.6 hp; same as the Ryger. In other words: the Ryger does not only rev, it also reaches the same high level of cylinder filling at 17000 rpm that the Aprilia reaches at 13000 rpm.




But if the HCCI makes more power then wouldnt the cylinder filling have to be less. Example: if the HCCI was 20% more effective then wouldnt cylinder filling be 20% less or something like it so that power would be the same (70 @17000). But maybe HCCI at 17000 is no more effective than regular spark ignition is at 13000 ?

[Frits Overmars]

But if the HCCI makes more power then wouldnt the cylinder filling have to be less. Example: if the HCCI was 20% more effective then wouldnt cylinder filling be 20% less or something like it so that power would be the same (70 @17000). But maybe HCCI at 17000 is no more effective than regular spark ignition is at 13000 ?Good point Motley. HCCI is indeed more effective (less negative pressure on the piston before TDC because if everything is as it should be, the burn starts later, less heat losses thanks to the faster burn, and less hydrocarbons that escape unburned) though I couldn't say if it were 20%.
I feared that not everyone might understand the Brake Mean Effective Pressure-concept so I went for 'cylinder filling' , introducing the error that you caught.
It's corrected now.

[2005bully]

I have tuned it a bit now, runs smoother on idle, but as there is no venturi in this carb i figure it will work better on a engine with bigger displacement.
An engine that pulls more air before getting into the pipe so to speak.
I still have this HUGE gap in power when giving it full throttle, it just dies, no fuel is drawn into airstream, until i hit ~11000rpm(when the pipe is pulling hard)

I feel it´s the drawback on this model of carb, it´s a 'slide' model.

Rgds.

SwePatric...

Provided that there are NO air leaks anywhere with in the carb and fuel lines, and the carb is mounted with the pump assembly to the top... The first thing in getting rid of the throttle lag, is to increase the volume of fuel in the chamber located above the fulcrum arm. This makes more fuel quickly available to reach the venturi when the throttle is snapped open. To do this simply raise the fulcrum arm height. Be aware if the fulcrum is raised to far, the back side of the metering diaphragm will make contact with the pump body and prevent the fuel inlet seat from completely closing. To check for this.... After setting the fulcrum arm height, with the pump assembly removed, re-set the pop-off back to the original setting. Then remove the needles put the pump assembly back on and re-check the pop-off through the fuel inlet. It should be with-in less than 1 psi to the same reading as when the pump is removed. Usually the fulcrum height dimension is measured from the gasket surface to the top of the fulcrum arm. With .010" increments being a common adjustment. Lower pop-off settings will also help get rid of this lag, but as you have already seen lower pop-off will have other detrimental effects. If you have the diaphragm start hitting the pump, but still want more volume. An additional gasket can be placed between the metering diaphragm and the pump body. When set at the same pop-off, lighter rate springs also slightly richen up the throttle opening. Hope this helps.... Kermit Buller

[Haufen]

When the engine gets to those high revs, the exhaust note changes; the engine really starts singing. It's a lovely sound.

Are there any further publications planned from the Ryger Team, Frits?

For example power diagrams, emissions vs rpm on a brake dyno, some videos of the engine at full song, explanations on how this engine works etc?

[wobbly]

What sort of pop off pressure is being used in the pumper now ?
I did a 100cc air cooled shifter engine years ago for a restricted kart class, that used a Tillotson 26mm slide carb.
The factory setting for this was 12 psi, but to get enough fuel into the low end transition circuit I had to eventually go to 1/2 this at 6 psi
with the lever height raised 0.5mm higher than stock as well.
The other "trick " is reverse jetting,with something like 2.5 turns on the L jet and 0.25 on the H, but this then needs a higher pop off.
This works well, as the L circuit is air corrected late in the fuel curve and it leans out past peak power, just whats needed.

[Flettner]

HCCI, how does a pulse jet ignite it's charge once up and running? A form of HCCI? There is no timed ignition.

[Frits Overmars]

HCCI, how does a pulse jet ignite it's charge once up and running? A form of HCCI? There is no timed ignition.Either there is a constant spark that ignites the mixture in the chamber as soon as its concentration and purity are susceptible to ignition,
and/or the fresh mixture is sufficiently heated and compressed by the exhaust gases that swing outward and back in the exhaust duct.

[Flatout]

Does the Ryger design rely mainly on HCCI for its power increase over a conventinal SI engine?

[bjorn.clauw.1]

One more, hcci vs honda atac comparison in a 2 stroke. (Also hcci with and without egr)
https://www.google.be/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.mech.cst.nihon-u.ac.jp/studies/iijima/3_Thesis/2006/Transactions/SAE%25202006%2520Transactions.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjYnbaCxM3KAhUJhhoKHf9kAfoQFggpMAU&usg=AFQjCNHwes0wwQFXGSPktgirVFLNtrRb1g&sig2=dRcFsGxg22V6SGSN--WuqQ

Paper states 15:1 compression ratio on pumpgas and internal egr (valve between cilinder & exhaust pipe) regulates the hcci ignition timing. So if we change (read:reduce) the exhaust port area/total port surface this could substitute the internal egr valve
(example in the paper states 25% closure puts the hcci ignition point at tdc)
Because of the piston pumping the ryger can get away with a smaller blowdown area.

Following this bold assumption, the 'transfer' port under the exhaust is just there to increase the under-piston volume (to somewhat increase the 'new' crankcase volume). Maybe a trade off to reduce power loss when not in hcci mode.

Bold assumption no2 (as stated by Flettner before) when hcci kicks in, higher combustion pressure/faster complete burn increases gas flow in the exhaust allowing it to operate as normal at much higher rpm. So nothing to control or regulate at WOT with moving valves or electronics.

Different matter:
Frits, would it be possible to post your leaning tower analogy in this thread? I've enjoyed reading it on another forum but I cannot find it here on kiwibiker.

[Tunisti]

Just wondering whether the (controversial) relatively tight gap (3mm calculated from the drawings) between the adapter plate´s cylindrical part and the "Ryger ports" in the cylinder wall could have a specific meaning. To open the name of HCCI=Homogeunous Charge Compression Ignition, we can see that there must be something in that motor, which makes the charge homogenous enough. Okay, we have this 30mm carburator, but I´d bet that it´s not capable to mix the fuel into the air well enough. Then we have this space beneath the piston, it´s pumping volume is 70cm^3 and it has somewhat small passage. Let's say that it's somewhat 1,5cm^2. Assuming that there would be 70cm^3 of mixture to be pumped through that 1,5cm^2 passage bethween TDC and BDC we could make this coarse assumption, that the mixture would have speed of at least 265m/s@17krpm through that relatively small gap. Sounds like a good change to force the mixture into homogenous state?

Then some other thoughts: as I have written in my two earlier messages, I tend to believe that the port below the exhaust port leads to exhaust duct. Thought a bit more of that, especially the affect of pipe´s pulse effect´s in such situation. Let's assume that the piston has already closed the transfers, and there is fresh mixture entering into the space beneath the piston. Exhaust port is just about to close and pressure wave arrives at the exhaust port, charging the cylinder to, let´s say 2,2bar of pressure. Exhaust port closes and the leftovers of the pulse reflect towards the end of pipe, creating a state of low pressure in the exhaust duct. Now something weird happens: the piston´s exhaust side skirt opens the "Ryger port" beneath the exhaust port, and the low pressure in exhaust duct "sucks" fresh mix into the space benath the piston. As the flow speeds up and the mixture flows into the exhaust duct through that "Ryger port" there happens once again something special - yet absolutely normal. The pulse (that reflected back towards the end of the pipe when the exhaust port closed) comes back and pushes the mixture in the exhaust duct back into the space beneath the piston. Piston´s skirt closes the "Ryger port" and there is somewhat high pressure in that space benath the piston. Exhaust port opens - the even smaller leftovers on the pulse reflect and give some more suction for the beginning of exhaust flow. Same recurs again and again. Pipe is capable of "charging" fresh mixture twice in one circulation - thus making the pipe´s efficiency very high.

Comments?

PS. Had also another theory in my mind. In this scenario the "Ryger port" beneath the exhaust port would feed fresh mixture inside the space beneath the piston (controlled by the piston skirt). The gap is somewhat larger at that point, when the piston is high enough. The mixture would come "Boyesen-style" from the A-transfer ducts, or then there could be that scenario, where the mix preheats in some kind of ducts very close to the exhaust port inner walls. The pulse theory written above, would offer somewhat much preheating for the mixture, and also some internal EGR-characteristics. Just to help the HCCI to stay in good state. The internal EGR-fuction would naturally be stronger when the engine is running below the sweet spot - therefore it´d help help the HCCI to get started more easily.:blink:

[MotleyCrue]

Just wondering whether the (controversial) relatively tight gap (3mm calculated from the drawings) between the adapter plate´s cylindrical part and the "Ryger ports" in the cylinder wall could have a specific meaning. To open the name of HCCI=Homogeunous Charge Compression Ignition, we can see that there must be something in that motor, which makes the charge homogenous enough. Okay, we have this 30mm carburator, but I´d bet that it´s not capable to mix the fuel into the air well enough. Then we have this space beneath the piston, it´s pumping volume is 70cm^3 and it has somewhat small passage. Let's say that it's somewhat 1,5cm^2. Assuming that there would be 70cm^3 of mixture to be pumped through that 1,5cm^2 passage bethween TDC and BDC we could make this coarse assumption, that the mixture would have speed of at least 265m/s@17krpm through that relatively small gap. Sounds like a good change to force the mixture into homogenous state?

Then some other thoughts: as I have written in my two earlier messages, I tend to believe that the port below the exhaust port leads to exhaust duct. Thought a bit more of that, especially the affect of pipe´s pulse effect´s in such situation. Let's assume that the piston has already closed the transfers, and there is fresh mixture entering into the space beneath the piston. Exhaust port is just about to close and pressure wave arrives at the exhaust port, charging the cylinder to, let´s say 2,2bar of pressure. Exhaust port closes and the leftovers of the pulse reflect towards the end of pipe, creating a state of low pressure in the exhaust duct. Now something weird happens: the piston´s exhaust side skirt opens the "Ryger port" beneath the exhaust port, and the low pressure in exhaust duct "sucks" fresh mix into the space benath the piston. As the flow speeds up and the mixture flows into the exhaust duct through that "Ryger port" there happens once again something special - yet absolutely normal. The pulse (that reflected back towards the end of the pipe when the exhaust port closed) comes back and pushes the mixture in the exhaust duct back into the space beneath the piston. Piston´s skirt closes the "Ryger port" and there is somewhat high pressure in that space benath the piston. Exhaust port opens - the even smaller leftovers on the pulse reflect and give some more suction for the beginning of exhaust flow. Same recurs again and again. Pipe is capable of "charging" fresh mixture twice in one circulation - thus making the pipe´s efficiency very high.

Comments?

PS. Had also another theory in my mind. In this scenario the "Ryger port" beneath the exhaust port would feed fresh mixture inside the space beneath the piston (controlled by the piston skirt). The gap is somewhat larger at that point, when the piston is high enough. The mixture would come "Boyesen-style" from the A-transfer ducts, or then there could be that scenario, where the mix preheats in some kind of ducts very close to the exhaust port inner walls. The pulse theory written above, would offer somewhat much preheating for the mixture, and also some internal EGR-characteristics. Just to help the HCCI to stay in good state. The internal EGR-fuction would naturally be stronger when the engine is running below the sweet spot - therefore it´d help help the HCCI to get started more easily.:blink:

What I have read and seen getting HCCI to happen in an engine is simple enough, but getting it to happen the right way under various conditions is the big challenge and companies with lots of money have thrown lots of money and electronics at it for 30 years. HCCI is next thing to explosive so it cant just happen randomly or the engine will suffer badly. The Ryger engine has no electronic feedback control or mechanisms to regulate HCCI under varying conditions, so maybe it makes 70 HP HCCI, but reliably under racing conditions up for grabs.

[bjorn.clauw.1]

Just wondering whether the (controversial) relatively tight gap (3mm calculated from the drawings) between the adapter plate´s cylindrical part and the "Ryger ports" in the cylinder wall could have a specific meaning. To open the name of HCCI=Homogeunous Charge Compression Ignition, we can see that there must be something in that motor, which makes the charge homogenous enough. Okay, we have this 30mm carburator, but I´d bet that it´s not capable to mix the fuel into the air well enough. Then we have this space beneath the piston, it´s pumping volume is 70cm^3 and it has somewhat small passage. Let's say that it's somewhat 1,5cm^2. Assuming that there would be 70cm^3 of mixture to be pumped through that 1,5cm^2 passage bethween TDC and BDC we could make this coarse assumption, that the mixture would have speed of at least 265m/s@17krpm through that relatively small gap. Sounds like a good change to force the mixture into homogenous state?

Then some other thoughts: as I have written in my two earlier messages, I tend to believe that the port below the exhaust port leads to exhaust duct. Thought a bit more of that, especially the affect of pipe´s pulse effect´s in such situation. Let's assume that the piston has already closed the transfers, and there is fresh mixture entering into the space beneath the piston. Exhaust port is just about to close and pressure wave arrives at the exhaust port, charging the cylinder to, let´s say 2,2bar of pressure. Exhaust port closes and the leftovers of the pulse reflect towards the end of pipe, creating a state of low pressure in the exhaust duct. Now something weird happens: the piston´s exhaust side skirt opens the "Ryger port" beneath the exhaust port, and the low pressure in exhaust duct "sucks" fresh mix into the space benath the piston. As the flow speeds up and the mixture flows into the exhaust duct through that "Ryger port" there happens once again something special - yet absolutely normal. The pulse (that reflected back towards the end of the pipe when the exhaust port closed) comes back and pushes the mixture in the exhaust duct back into the space beneath the piston. Piston´s skirt closes the "Ryger port" and there is somewhat high pressure in that space benath the piston. Exhaust port opens - the even smaller leftovers on the pulse reflect and give some more suction for the beginning of exhaust flow. Same recurs again and again. Pipe is capable of "charging" fresh mixture twice in one circulation - thus making the pipe´s efficiency very high.

Comments?




In theory this could be possible alltough I think this would really help when you have a large crankcase volume (under piston volume).
When piston passes tdc and goes down, the exhaust pushes mixture through the 'ryger' port (which as you stated was sucked out just before) but pressure will rise quickly because piston is compressing a small volume, worst case scenario is piston pushing part of the charge through the 'ryger' port into the exhaust before it closes.

I am pretty sure the sides of the transfer under the exhaust ('ryger' port) connect with the left and right transfer ducts, so the piston skirt isn't really closing off the port.

[SwePatrick]

SwePatric...

Provided that there are NO air leaks anywhere with in the carb and fuel lines, and the carb is mounted with the pump assembly to the top... The first thing in getting rid of the throttle lag, is to increase the volume of fuel in the chamber located above the fulcrum arm. This makes more fuel quickly available to reach the venturi when the throttle is snapped open. To do this simply raise the fulcrum arm height. Be aware if the fulcrum is raised to far, the back side of the metering diaphragm will make contact with the pump body and prevent the fuel inlet seat from completely closing. To check for this.... After setting the fulcrum arm height, with the pump assembly removed, re-set the pop-off back to the original setting. Then remove the needles put the pump assembly back on and re-check the pop-off through the fuel inlet. It should be with-in less than 1 psi to the same reading as when the pump is removed. Usually the fulcrum height dimension is measured from the gasket surface to the top of the fulcrum arm. With .010" increments being a common adjustment. Lower pop-off settings will also help get rid of this lag, but as you have already seen lower pop-off will have other detrimental effects. If you have the diaphragm start hitting the pump, but still want more volume. An additional gasket can be placed between the metering diaphragm and the pump body. When set at the same pop-off, lighter rate springs also slightly richen up the throttle opening. Hope this helps.... Kermit Buller



I have response, it´s like 'snap' response, very quick.
But when trying to make a pull in dyno it leanes out after about a half second on full throttle.
Above 11000rpm all is fine, response and does not lean out.

I have tried different fulcrum heights, no difference with this problem, just made difference to less throttleopenings, with that said, i can make a dyno pull all the way from 4000rpm to 13500rpm on half throttle, no problem.
But that won´t make any power ;)
The popoff pressure i have tried different pressures, the same there.
It alteres the way carb is working on small throttleopenings, no difference in full throttle, the same symptom.

I have tested three different springs and i was recommended between 0.55 to 0.75bar
Mine was running best at 0.55bar
The other pressures i got was 1bar and 0.7 with those i had to turn out the lowspeed needel about 4revolutions before it was running good on idle.
With 0.55 i just have about 1.3-1.5turns.

Trying to give a IRL explanation:
It seems like the carb is loosing all 'signal' and airspeed and just shuts off when hitting full throttle to early in revband, just like hitting fullthrottle with big 'normal' carb on low gears at low rpm´s.
I can freerev it, no problem at all.
Sound like a beast, but when giving the engine load it just leans off in about a half second.
My pulls with this little engine is about 12s long with my inertiabench.
And when the engine is hitting the pipe the airspeed increases and the carb is working fine again, above 11000rpm
It made 26hp but with a very very bad torqueband as i couldn´t give it full throttle until 11000rpm.


I combined the answer to Kermit and Wobbly but only quoted kermit. ;)

[SwePatrick]

Tunisti, I´m sorry.
I don´t buy your theory, if the exhaust is connected to the transfers, how do you get it to compress the gasses in the 'crankhouse' so it can reach the cylinder?
It has to be a controlled valve in that case, and there´s none on the drawings.

Rgds.

[Lightbulb]

What I find with the published Ryger stuff is the simplicity. I am sure there will be lots of things that are not quite so obvious
that can have a large impact on performance that is not always easily observed. An example of something that can improve performance
but not be noticeable is the width of the bottom of an exhaust port relative to the direction and position of the side transfer ports. I have seen
on a 2.5cc engine where a change in the exhaust port width of 0.1mm made a significant gain, approx 400 to 500 rpm tested on 10 engines.
I have also seen an 800 rpm loss when it was widened too far by yours truly on the development engine.
Neil

[Yow Ling]

Tunisti, I´m sorry.
I don´t buy your theory, if the exhaust is connected to the transfers, how do you get it to compress the gasses in the 'crankhouse' so it can reach the cylinder?
It has to be a controlled valve in that case, and there´s none on the drawings.

Rgds.

There were some photos of the cylinder, but they are all removed , even the ones that husaberg captioned are gone. One had a port that was above the exhaust which I thought could have been egr. I saved a copy so I have a look later

[Grumph]

Tunisti, I´m sorry.
I don´t buy your theory, if the exhaust is connected to the transfers, how do you get it to compress the gasses in the 'crankhouse' so it can reach the cylinder?
It has to be a controlled valve in that case, and there´s none on the drawings.

Rgds.

If - and it's a big if - the port below the exhaust is connected to the exhaust duct then the missing picture of the piston is the key.
It showed that the piston skirt on the exhaust side was close to "normal" length - but only on that side.
Aside from being long enough to stop the exhaust opening into the under piston area at TDC, the lower edge of the skirt would time the open period of that port under the exhaust.
Given the piston guidance by the "trunk" tubular lower end, the only reason I can see for the skirt to be any longer than needed to close off the main ex port is to time this extra port.

[wobbly]

Here is the entry list for the first big race of the year in Europe with all the new homologations allowed..
No Rygers listed.
I only found this as a young guy ( Armstrong ) I helped here in NZ now has a factory drive for TonyKart.

http://tkart.it/en/editor/pex-corre-con-motore-vortex/

[Muciek]

I got my hands on 1985 or 86 KX250 cylinder and main ehx (bridged) port floor is raised 4mm (stroke is 65mm and floor is on 61) transfers starts on 65, but it looks like they dropped that idea later. Wobbly I have bought servo from R1 but I don't have original connector could You tell me what is the pinout?
319176

[wobbly]

Yep, the top 3 are the servo position pins.
Lh = sensor earth, mid = sevo position out, Rh= +5V.
The pot does fail eventually, even in these newish R1 servo's.
So check you have 5-7K ohms on the outer 2 pins, and that the resistance varies between the middle and one end
as you wind the cable wheel back and forth with vice grips.

Lower pair are the servo motor power from ecu.
Run a 3 pin and a 2 pin plug for each, back to the ecu so you can program it easily.

[TZ350]

319180

Making progress with the Beast. Michael from Morgan Engineering has been helping me with a seat frame for the Beast, Basically a NSR250 with the old EFI air cooled Suzuki GP125 engine.

There is a 110cc water cooled engine pretty much ready for it. But because I have good dyno graphs for the air cooler I wanted to test it again with the dry sump idea to see what power difference there is between a wet and dry sump if any before I fit the water cooler.

[jasonu]

319180

Making progress with the Beast. Michael from Morgan Engineering has been helping me with a seat frame for the Beast, Basically a NSR250 with the old EFI air cooled Suzuki GP125 engine.

There is a 110cc water cooled engine pretty much ready for it. But because I have good dyno graphs for the air cooler I wanted to test it again with the dry sump idea to see what power difference there is, if any with a wet sump before I fit the water cooler.

I see your welder has his safety singlet on...

[wobbly]

My legs dont work at all,so to see someone use a "foot" control using his knee absolutely fucks me off.
Black singlets have an extended aura that prevents UVA, from affecting locally uncovered skin, so thats just fine.

[dark art]

I wanted to test it again with the dry sump idea to see what power difference there is, if any with a dry sump before I fit the water cooler.

I have though about it some time ago and the electric oil pump, that some people use on muscle cars, seem a good candidate to a relatively fast test of the dry sump.

I had bought a second hand bike wich the previous owner fill the gearbox to the very top, with oil. :no:
The bike hardly pulled third gear on the street. After take the oil to indicate level, on the same road pulled 4 and 5th gear no problem, so it might make a very valuable difference...

[Grumph]

I see your welder has his safety singlet on...


My legs dont work at all,so to see someone use a "foot" control using his knee absolutely fucks me off.
Black singlets have an extended aura that prevents UVA, from affecting locally uncovered skin, so thats just fine.

Did neither of you notice the Samoan safety boots ?

He obviously had to use the floor as the bench is occupied with more important stuff - Heineken..

Rob, no offence, I'm sure his work is good.

[Tim Ey]

I got my hands on 1985 or 86 KX250 cylinder and main ehx (bridged) port floor is raised 4mm (stroke is 65mm and floor is on 61) transfers starts on 65, but it looks like they dropped that idea later. Wobbly I have bought servo from R1 but I don't have original connector could You tell me what is the pinout?
319176

Is this the fastest Servo available? I got one Yamaha YPVS Servo and it is as fast as a slug...

[ief]

same thing.

[TZ350]

Did neither of you notice the Samoan safety boots ?

He obviously had to use the floor as the bench is occupied with more important stuff - Heineken..

Rob, no offence, I'm sure his work is good.

True, no shortage of the important stuff ... and it was good welding workmanship alright too.

[marsheng]

Results of an centrifugal power valve test.

Actuation mechanism mounted on a router with a variac controlling the speed. .

Run 1 Standard - No load ie not operating valves

Starts to open 7800 and fully open at 8300 - 500 RPM range
Only closes at 6500.
Hysteresis 1800 RPM

Run 2 Added 3 mm spacer onto the spring
opens 9000 and fully open 9200 - 200 RPM range
Closes 6600
Hysteresis 2600 RPM

Run 3 Used 6.35 mm balls instead of 8 mm
opens 10300 and fully open 11500 - 1200 RPM range
Closes 8300
Hysteresis 3200 RPM

Run 4 Used 6.35 mm balls and reduced preload on spring by 2 mm
opens 9000 and fully open 10200 - 1200 RPM range
Closes 7700-6700
Hysteresis 2500 RPM

I tried 3 balls and it was similar to Run 2

Run 4 seems the one to try.

Still the best option is and Ingitech and an Exup servo. (Is this Pre 89 ??)


Cheers Wallace

[Larry Wiechman]

319180

Making progress with the Beast. Michael from Morgan Engineering has been helping me with a seat frame for the Beast, Basically a NSR250 with the old EFI air cooled Suzuki GP125 engine.




You can TIG weld in hot weather and not get the added bonus of skin cancer by using a sun block lotion that has a high SPF rating. (40+)

Heineken is only SPF 5.

[wobbly]

The R1 servo is exactly the same internally as the old YPVS models, only difference is the later version has the plug molded
into the body, and most of those old servos are well past it now.
The R1 unit is plenty fast enough for any 2T acceleration rate.
If its "slow " its faulty, or the power supply cant deliver sufficient current.
As the load from the PV goes up, the servo tries to "catch up " due to the error correcting feedback circuit, and to do so it pulls more current thru the motor.
I did a test years ago on the Dynojet 160 I use,and in a kart with a 125 TM MX engine making 50 Hp we videoed the two dyno screens
during a run.
One screen has the Dynojet real time info, the other screen has the Ignitech software running in real time as well.
In first gear we did multiple pulls from under 6,000 to 13,000,and played back the video ( yes an old VHS ) and watched the servo
position cursor change with the rpm.
It was spot on the money.
This was using a cable wheel on the PV that gave a ratio of nearly 2:1 revs of the servo
Nothing accelerates as fast as a 50 Hp kart in first gear on the dyno, so as long as the servo is mechanically and electrically sweet it will do for any engine.
I have used it on a FPE 250 Superkart engine on the same dyno with no issue of servo/PV lag

[marsheng]

Thanks for the info. I see if the owner of the bike wants to go down this route. Look like a really interesting exercise.

[timg]

Thanks for the info. I see if the owner of the bike wants to go down this route. Look like a really interesting exercise. Oi! Get back to sorting your Maico! ;)

[Lightbulb]

It does seem odd that no Ryger powered Karts are not in the 1st race. I would have thought that they would have tested it against a known kart on the track and would show how it just blows the fairing off the opposition machines. But no such information has come to light. The only testing we have seen is not on a track at all. It could be that they blow up 100m before the finish line and have to solve this problem 1st.

[wobbly]

Well the to date totally unimpressed Mr Thiel, has reported that the Ryger was set up for a test day with several drivers invited.
It lasted 3 slow laps before seizing.
Now this in itself itsnt so damning, but to build 50 engines, pay a fortune to greedy patent lawyers, advertise all over that CIK Homologation
has been achieved, and then fail to have an entry in the first big race of the year means something is very wrong.
If thats simply waiting for the patent issue, that then gives rights due to being first in line with the application ( very important in the new USA legislation )
then thats completely understandable.
Otherwise its pointing in the same direction as the basically stock bottom end being capable ( ie reliable ) at 30,000 - yea right.

[Peter1962]

It does seem odd that no Ryger powered Karts are not in the 1st race. I would have thought that they would have tested it against a known kart on the track and would show how it just blows the fairing off the opposition machines. But no such information has come to light. The only testing we have seen is not on a track at all. It could be that they blow up 100m before the finish line and have to solve this problem 1st.

We know the homologation is OK, and 50 engines are ready. If they do not deliver them to clients, the only logical reason for that is that the patent has not yet been granted.

[TZ350]

.

In celebration of water cooled 100's and the work that goes into building them.

319195

Nigel Duffs remarkable RS framed bike with a water cooled RG100 engine made from a sleeved down RG150. Nigel put in quite a few great rides with this bike and developed a reputation for being pretty dominant with it. Now days Nathanial pretty much fulfills that role.

319193

Diesel Pigs bike is a South Island version of a RG100 made from a RG150 engine. Some of these engines used the original RG150 cylinder others used the RGV250 cylinder. Whichever way they went there was a lot of work involved in making and fitting a sleeve.

319194

Husaburgs NSR 125 that is being converted to a 100, it could just as easily be a 110 now with that handy rule change allowing the 100cc crowed to use the cheap oversize KT100 pistons.

The MB100 boys agitated to have this rule change brought in so they didn't have to go to the trouble of de stroking their cranks to stay legal. They wanted 107cc but to be fair to all the 100's MNZ took advice and chose 110cc so that everyone benefited.

319192

I think this is Brendons NSR125 conversion.

319191319190

Another of BrenCHCH's projects. A KE125 bottom end with a RG400 cylinder grafted on.

[TZ350]

In celebration of water cooled 100's Page 2

319201

Jason and the RMS engineering KE100 made using a Kawasaki rotary valve bottom end and a RG400 cylinder. The bike was very light and delivered a strong mid twenties rear wheel hp.

319199

One of my favorites, the Team GPR 100cc twin made using two RG50 cylinders. Reputedly about 30hp, if that could be confirmed then it would probably be NZ's first 30hp bucket.

319200

Yow Lings RG150 to 100 conversion, this motor may have found its way into Diesel Pigs bike.

319202

Making a new sleeve was a real job of work in itself.

319197319198

Speedpros MB100 water cooled head, I think that later this got the water cooled barrel treatment too.

Back in the day a lot of this water cooling of originally air cooled engines was being done. I would love to see more picture from people like F5 dave who built one and pictures of other engines back in the day. And if anyone gave a Suzuki TF/TS the treatment I would love to see pictures of that too.

[TZ350]

In celebration of water cooled 100's Page 3

319205

This is another great 100 cc conversion, a beautifully prepared bike.

Unfortunately I only have a few photos and there must be a lot more of these water cooled 100's out there. And now that the 110 rule is here it makes getting them up and running and keeping them going much easier.

319204

With the new 110cc over size rule in place I hear there are a few old 125 aircooled engines being converted to water cooling.

The rule change was brought in so that people did not have to de stroke their engines to stay legal.

319203

But now with the 110 rule if you are willing to go to the trouble of a de stroke then the door is open to making a competitive and reliable engine using a water cooled cylinder from a road bike that is modern enough to have a power valve.

[TZ350]

In celebration of water cooled 100's Page 4

319207

Buckets has always had an element of experimentation about it. This is my de stroked, re plated NSR 110cc plenum chamber project. The plenum was first tried on my air cooled 125 as a way of getting past the restriction imposed by a 24mm carb.

At the time the plenum was tried the 125 engine made about 20hp when 100cc water coolers were making 25+. At that time 20hp was thought to be the limit for an 2T engine with a 24mm carb.

After experimenting a bit with the plenum the conclusion was, that it was not the 24mm carb but other aspects of the motor that was holding it back. Now that we are at the 30hp mark it might be time to try the plenum again.

319206

This engine is 110cc and see, it has the regulation 24mm carb restriction required by the rules for 2T's over 104cc.

For selfish reasons I would hate it if they made it open carb for all Buckets. It would take the fun out of finding imaginative ways of working with the 24 rule.

Bucketracer had the vide camera handy when we first fired the the bike up


In the first moments of the clip you can see how easy it is to start from cold, and that there is no blow back from the carb.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxiEo8cgopg

Warming it up before a bit of a blurt up the drive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ef-WUO1Qs

The first outing and the Magic Vacuum Cleaner ran Ok.

319208

This is the inside of the plenum. When I first tried it, it worked well enough but had issues with fuel dropout and and the Blaaars at 5-6K rpm.

A report from when we first track tested the plenum in Feb 2010.


Testing at MtWelly was difficult on the wet track, there was not a lot of traction, open the throttle and the back wheel would just spin up. (TT100 tires). It has some kinks to iron out, but it does run, didn't blow up and shows promise. I am looking forward to getting the beast onto a dyno soon to see if the gains make it worth persevering with and developing it further.

If you follow the post back there is a lot more on the plenum.

319213

The Blaaars were cured by adding an extension to the inlet tract. But I would prefer to have the short bell mouth.

319212

I want a big 34mm inlet tract that is short as possible so this time I will use a variation on this valve system that reduced the closing timing and halved the tract area. This worked well cleaning up the carburetion when using wild rotary valve timing so it might be good for curing the plenums blaaar problem too.

319214

My experiments with EFI fuel injection into the transfer ports was started as a way to get over the fuel dropout problem in the plenum.

Fuel dropout in the plenum is a problem because you lose control of the mixture strength with all that raw fuel slopping around.

Anyway I am all excited about getting my new bike finished and being able to continue developing the Magic Vacuum Cleaner.

I think sleeving a motor is hard work and not easy to get a good outcome with so I am very grateful to be able to do it using the de stroke option and have what should be a reliable 110cc water cooled motor.

[seymour14]

I'm with you, no more mucking around with rules thank you very much! Some developments take years, the GPR125 is at the end of year two and only just starting to see the track. Failing all else, Scott used to play with watercooled TF100's, and with a little magic the GPR 125 could also undergo a retrofitting. But this mix of watercooled 110's, air cooled 125's and four stroke 150's is certainly going to put up a great array of machinery, long may that continue.

Great photos, and look forward to seeing it out on the track this coming year!

[goose8]

In celebration of water cooled 100's Page 3

319205

This is another great 100 cc conversion, a beautifully prepared bike.

Unfortunately I only have a few photos and there must be a lot more of these water cooled 100's out there. And now that the 110 rule is here it makes getting them up and running and keeping them going much easier.

319204

With the new 110cc over size rule in place I hear there are a few old 125 aircooled engines being converted to water cooling.
The rule change was brought in so that people did not have to de stroke their engines to stay legal.

319203

But now with the 110 rule if you are willing to go to the trouble of a de stroke then the door is open to making a competitive and reliable engine using a water cooled cylinder from a road bike that is modern enough to have a power valve.

It is a over size rule so the motor would have to start out as a 100cc or 150cc ?, just building a 110cc or a 158cc is against the rules is it not? I have wondered about the fxrs as many seem to build them out to the oversize limit straight off the bat , not as a need to do so after a blow up which I would consider to be outside the rules . After talking to a couple of people at the track yesterday ,they had similar feelings any thoughts on this.

[TZ350]

It is a over size rule so the motor would have to start out as a 100cc or 150cc ?, just building a 110cc or a 158cc is against the rules is it not? I have wondered about the fxrs as many seem to build them out to the oversize limit straight off the bat , not as a need to do so after a blow up which I would consider to be outside the rules . After talking to a couple of people at the track yesterday ,they had similar feelings any thoughts on this.

I agree building an engine to max oversize straight off is a grey area that probably needs addressing along with other issues like, what size is a 24mm carb and how much of an engine can be homemade before it is no longer based on a non competition engine. We have had a pretty common sense approach to this until now and I understand some of the AMCC Bucket committee members are looking at how a re write of the rules could address some of these grey areas.

Just for the record, when this extra oversize rule was mooted for the convenience of a limited few MB100 pilots I made a submission to MNZ opposing it. Now that it is here and available to all, I am going to enjoy it.

319215 Suzuki GP100 bottom end with rebored (replated) NSR cylinder.

I expected a bit of opposition. So I was careful to start with a 100cc engine. A air cooled Suzuki GP100 that I had previously raced and after adding an old water cooled NSR cylinder and porting it, the cylinder was rebored (replated in this case) because it needed it.

Old dud cylinders are cheap to buy. So it is a totally legal within the rules and the spirit and the intent of Bucketracing endeavor. Which started of as a 100 and finished up as a re bored 110, my arse is totaly coverd rule wise.

The only difference between what others have done and what I am doing is approach, different approach same result, a water cooled F4 2T100

[cotswold]

It is a over size rule so the motor would have to start out as a 100cc or 150cc ?, just building a 110cc or a 158cc is against the rules is it not? I have wondered about the fxrs as many seem to build them out to the oversize limit straight off the bat , not as a need to do so after a blow up which I would consider to be outside the rules . After talking to a couple of people at the track yesterday ,they had similar feelings any thoughts on this.

It is certainly a grey area but how could it be policed, it's too easy to just say I slipped with my porting tool or I had a ring hang up and stuffed the bore.
From where I see it the 110, 158 rule is one of those things that was introduced to give older machines a bit more life without having to build new cranks but in reality has just raised the tuning bar a bit higher for those with a bit of technical nous.

[TALLIS]

I have wondered about the fxrs as many seem to build them out to the oversize limit straight off the bat , not as a need to do so after a blow up which I would consider to be outside the rules . After talking to a couple of people at the track yesterday ,they had similar feelings any thoughts on this.
Don't worry gary, we're all binning the fxr engines for two strokes so that unfair adavatange will be gone.

Great post by the way rob!!!

[kel]

It is a over size rule so the motor would have to start out as a 100cc or 150cc ?, just building a 110cc or a 158cc is against the rules is it not? .
Absolutely correct


I have wondered about the fxrs as many seem to build them out to the oversize limit straight off the bat , not as a need to do so after a blow up which I would consider to be outside the rules.
Why? Its a maximum rebore size. No where does it say you may not rebore unless you blow up your motor first. As long as it starts out as a 100 or 150, as you have stated above, then bore away!


After talking to a couple of people at the track yesterday ,they had similar feelings any thoughts on this.
Shit Gary that's almost as bad as "the spirit". Was it the "we must crush innovation, we don't need people building fast bikes that comply with the rules" kind of feelings? Sorry mate, nothing personal.
We know where this is being driven from. Fact of the matter is that everyone had the opportunity to submit regarding this rule change last year. I for one opposed it, but it went through so deal with it, or even better exploit it! :headbang:

[seymour14]

Quote:But I agree building an engine to max oversize straight off is a grey area that probably needs addressing along with other issues like, what size is a 24mm carb and how much of an engine can be homemade before it is no longer based on a non competition engine. We have had a pretty common sense approach to this until now but I understand some of the AMCC Bucket committee members are looking at a re write of the rules.[/QUOTE]

I suspect I know who's bike has caused that controversy! :rolleyes:

My dispute has and always will be that some bikes start out too close to competition bikes, others have taken a known commuter engine and do wickedly outrageous things with them, attempts on super charging, turbo charging, water cooling and in our case a barrel that blended a Kr125 (150 originally...) to a racier design. Which in many respects is exactly what people are trying to achieve even if they are merely porting their engines.

I know which one I consider fully legitimate and exciting to belong to. And it's the whole premise of buckets to have the opportunity to tinker.

[kel]

I suspect I know who's bike has caused that controversy! :rolleyes:
Yeah it was mine :bleh:. But seriously, I don't think they are bothered with the air coolers, everyone knows the inherent problems. But I'll tell you what, I'd love to see your machine win the GP, it would be a true triumph for bucketaring!
Derbi kit motors should be targeted if we are seriously talking rule change. No way should you be able to buy off the shelf performance parts (cylinders, clutches, gear sets, etc) bolt up and call it a bucket. ps they have 110cc kits for those things also :girlfight:

[seymour14]

Yeah it was mine :bleh:. But seriously, I don't think they are bothered with the air coolers, everyone knows the inherent problems. But I'll tell you what, I'd love to see your machine win the GP, it would be a true triumph for bucketaring! Derbi kit motors should be targeted if we are seriously talking rule change. No way should you be able to buy off the shelf performance parts (cylinders, clutches, gear sets, etc) bolt up and call it a bucket. ps they have 110cc kits for those things also :girlfight:

Please God say you are joking...:brick:

[TZ350]

I understand some of the AMCC Bucket committee members are looking at a re write of the rules.
I suspect I know who's bike has caused that controversy! :rolleyes:

Yes, your work is well thought of, the current rules are lagging behind what can be done with CAD and CNC machinery.

Buckets was all about what you could do with a non competition motorcycle engine.

The Bucket committees rule update thinking looks to be about embracing and legitimising new technology and what can be done with it.

How do you have a class that requires a non competition motorcycle engine, excludes race parts but allows someone to completely make an engine from scratch? How do your formulate a rule for that, it is a tricky one.

[TALLIS]

How do you have a class that requires a non competition motorcycle engine but allows someone to completely make an engine from scratch? How do your formulate a rule for that, it is a tricky one.

I don't really understand this, you can use a nsr cylinder and sleeve it down or buy a surposingly non race derbi cylinder kit from Europe, but you can't make a cylinder from scratch.

[seymour14]

Yes, your work is well thought of, the current rules are lagging behind what can be done with CAD and CNC machinery.

Buckets was all about what you could do with a non competition motorcycle engine.

The Bucket committees rule update thinking looks to be about embracing and legitimising new technology and what can be done with it.

How do you have a class that requires a non competition motorcycle engine, excludes race parts but allows someone to completely make an engine from scratch? How do your formulate a rule for that, it is a tricky one.

Again, this could just be a percentage thing. To be quite honest I would never consider building a complete motor for a bucket simply because I do consider that totally against the rules. But when I see that aftermarket cylinders can be bought with ease, I expected that making a cylinder should be well within the same philosophy.

If I was to make a complete motor in time, it would be for a totally different class of motorcycle racing.

[TZ350]

To be quite honest I would never consider building a complete motor for a bucket simply because I do consider that totally against the rules.

Hand build some of the motor or all of it like some of Flettners efforts, whatever, it is an admirable Bucket thing.

The problem is, how do you formulate a rule that allows and encourages maximum innovation and keep some race engine restrictions. I can see the all in MX85 thing would be much easier.

[marsheng]

It does seem odd that no Ryger powered Karts are not in the 1st race.

Double negative make a positive, so Rygers are in the first race ??

I presume you mean

It does seem odd that Ryger powered Karts are not in the 1st race.

or

It does seem odd that no Ryger powered Karts are in the 1st race.

[mr bucketracer]

Hand build some of the motor or all of it like some of Flettners efforts, whatever, it is an admirable Bucket thing.

The problem is, how do you formulate a rule that allows and encourages maximum innovation and keep some race engine restrictions. I can see the all in MX85 thing would be much easier.keery is cncing a rs125 engine at the moment , just copying the gearbox and bang done (-; lol but i see where you are coming from but only when one starts winning one worrys about it

[seymour14]

keery is cncing a rs125 engine at the moment , just copying the gearbox and bang done (-; lol but i see where you are coming from but only when one starts winning one worrys about it

Nice one you stirrer! Nothing of the sort, but I can appreciate the grey area now it is pointed out. No such thing as a KR125 or NSR110 or Derbi110, but put some aftermarket engineering or parts into the equation and boom there it is!

But then again, it is little different to someone using another cylinder head and re-machining mounting holes and porting it differently, or for that matter de stroking or sleeving a motor. It is effectively turning it into something it never was. But the point would be is that it was initially based on a commuter motor and hasn't used race derived parts.

The derbi 110cc is crap though, just look what it's little derivative can do already. Deep pockets will win the day forever at this rate.

[jasonu]

The derbi 110cc is crap though, just look what it's little derivative can do already. Deep pockets will win the day forever at this rate.

I bet it would be cheaper to build a proven Derbi/Malossi engine than to pay to have an RG400 cylinder mated to a KE125 bottom end as well as all the associated development costs. (just a comment, I am not endorsing one or the other)

[seymour14]

I bet it would be cheaper to buy a bunch of proven Derbi/Malossi parts than to pay to have an RG400 cylinder mated to a KE125 bottom end. (just a comment, I am not endorsing one or the other)

For most people yes, but not me.:niceone:

Be interesting to see what the AMCC guys come up with, the grey areas seem to be larger then the clear ones...

Still, come what may, they still have to be raced well on the day.

[chrisc]

Still, come what may, they still have to be raced well on the day.
^ ain't that the fucking truth

I honestly don't see any problem with the current rules when you look at what is going on in reality, rather than what the rule book says and all the theoretical scenarios that could play out.

Between the GPR bikes, the Ford TFRS, the ESE creations, those of us running FXRs, it's all great racing! I have no hope of ever winning on my FXR but myself and others in similar positions turn up almost all meetings and have as much fun as anyone else. Just beating Henk is like winning a race in my mind!

For Nick to be hot on Will's ass (and even beating him) at Tokoroa, when Will weighs "as much as a t-shirt", is incredible! What does that say about the bikes and rules? (excluding the riders ability who are both clearly very good). Not to mention Regan and Nick taking out the bloody 2 hour at a track they've barely ridden at!

In the super and hyper bucket category, I see the biggest 'advantage' anyone has at the moment is weight and fitness. It would take some pretty unrealistic and drastic rule changes to combat that. Thank god we race on small kart tracks where the skill of a rider can clearly overcome someone else's machine advantages. This would all be so painful if we raced on big tracks where small differences in HP and weight meant everything. No wonder why so many of the buckets in Christchurch are practically stock engine wise!

[seymour14]

That does open up another thing too, is our GP that inclusive, when half the racers don't compete because it is on a kart track?

Is there any reason why we could not do a kart track/taupo swap around year about.

More food for thought, just tell me to shut up if I am opening too many cans of worms at once...:shifty:

[goose8]

Don't worry gary, we're all binning the fxr engines for two strokes so that unfair adavatange will be gone.

Great post by the way rob!!!
Don't get me wrong 2 strokes do have a advantage .
Personally I would love to run standard 125 motocross motors in a superbucket class ,the high sides would be funny as shit to watch.but can't see it ever happening , still would love to swap bikes for a session or two with one of the gpr fxrs bikes ,As I have been having some fun lately on the f5 4 stroke

[Lightbulb]

More food for thought, just tell me to shut up if I am opening too many cans of worms at once...:shifty:

It's not the can's of worms, it's just that the toasters can't keep up.
Maybe we need more toasters and thinkers.
Neil

[seymour14]

It's not the can's of worms, it's just that the toasters can't keep up.
Maybe we need more toasters and thinkers.
Neil

Status Quo will probably be the call I expect. We already have too many things overflowing from the "too hard" basket...:laugh:

[kel]

Thank god we race on small kart tracks where the skill of a rider can clearly overcome someone else's machine advantages.
The class isn't and never was solely based around kart track racing. The GP was run at Ohakea , then Taupo (and at Mt Wellington for maybe a year or two). The Tokoroa GP has only been around since 2012, and unless I'm mistaken we have had zero south islanders attend.


This would all be so painful if we raced on big tracks where small differences in HP and weight meant everything. No wonder why so many of the buckets in Christchurch are practically stock engine wise! :facepalm:

[mr bucketracer]

this is so cool talking buckets in the ESE thread again:cool:

[seymour14]

this is so cool talking buckets in the ESE thread again:cool:

Your a cheeky little monkey tonight...:lol:

[diesel pig]

In celebration of water cooled 100's Page 2


319200

Yow Lings RG150 to 100 conversion, this motor may have found its way into Diesel Pigs bike.



Nope they are two different engines although a lot of my engine was make in Lings workshop including the new sleeve
I rough out the porting on his mill on last sunday afternoon :brick: casting a cylinder gets more attractive all the time

[Grumph]

Nope they are two different engines although a lot of my engine was make in Lings workshop including the new sleeve
I rough out the porting on his mill on last sunday afternoon :brick: casting a cylinder gets more attractive all the time

The RG400 barrels are already 50mm bore....still here.

[F5 Dave]

Hmm well I'll see if I can post a pic but this tablet is a piglet.

No, fail, maybe later when on a PC.

[Buddha#81]

This would all be so painful if we raced on big tracks where small differences in HP and weight meant everything. No wonder why so many of the buckets in Christchurch are practically stock engine wise!

That's the best thing I've read on here for some time, infact we detune our motors to make them easier to ride...... We are still waiting for one of your mega hp rockets to come down and take the BOB north. I suppose a 14 year old on a "standard" FXR taking third place in GP for the development (old street stock) class at the first round of the nationals up against RG's KR's and ninja 250's was a fluke? Granted we might not have the peak HP that some of your bikes have but we also need some reliability to sustain the long periods of full RPM required at Ruapuna and Levels. Ask DieselPig how many Pistons his RG100 has eaten in the quest of full track glory. Stock motors bwhahaha!

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, would it be possible to post your leaning tower analogy in this thread? I've enjoyed reading it on another forum but I cannot find it here on kiwibiker.Thanks for the flowers Bjorn. Here you go:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130452977#post1130452977

[nasone32]

Frits,
I am tinkering a bit on your FOS design, and I did a nice experiment you might want to look into. maybe it's garbage, maybe not.
Basically I am doing static flow simulations, and i look at the amount of flux intersecting a plane near the head, with different parameters.
Normally I am always a bit behind the coventional scavenging, But I found out that using a 25 degrees taper in the last centimeter of the transfer ducts, there is almost an 80% gain in the upward flow (towards the head). the mass flow measured at exhaust ducts is unchanged, so this proves i'm not fooling myself.

I know static simulations mean very little, but I also have an understating of the correlations yamaha found out on that sae paper, i'm using their method, and the flux reaching the head (or better, crossing a reference plane 30% of the stroke from the head) is in good correlation with the scavenging quality.
I have a grasp that the FOS scavenging quality is good only "on the pipe", so i was hoping to improve it a bit.

I'm a bit away from engines these days, i know this is mostly fried air, sorry, but i need to keep the mind active sometimes. and sharing is caring...

here's a hint on the taper i am talking about
http://i.imgur.com/8PQiH4g.jpg

[Niels Abildgaard]

Will it be possible to change scavenging models like ESE to handle two strokes with exhaust valves and unsymmetric timing?.
As I se it, two strokes with piston controled exhausts, is a dying breed.

[nasone32]

With enough workmanship a lot of things are possible, but the point is always the same, we want 2-strokes for simplicity, once you add mechanical complexity you might want to consider a 4 stroke. Just double the capacity and the power comes out easily. even easier than with 2 stroke
unless you cannot double the capacity, then you are in racing. And in racing there's not a big point in having a super-flat power curve (because that's the reason for exhaust valves and unsymmetric timing)

[Frits Overmars]

Frits,
I am tinkering a bit on your FOS design, and I did a nice experiment you might want to look into. maybe it's garbage, maybe not.
Basically I am doing static flow simulations, and i look at the amount of flux intersecting a plane near the head, with different parameters.
Normally I am always a bit behind the coventional scavenging, But I found out that using a 25 degrees taper in the last centimeter of the transfer ducts, there is almost an 80% gain in the upward flow (towards the head). the mass flow measured at exhaust ducts is unchanged, so this proves i'm not fooling myself.

I know static simulations mean very little, but I also have an understating of the correlations yamaha found out on that sae paper, i'm using their method, and the flux reaching the head (or better, crossing a reference plane 30% of the stroke from the head) is in good correlation with the scavenging quality.
I have a grasp that the FOS scavenging quality is good only "on the pipe", so i was hoping to improve it a bit.

I'm a bit away from engines these days, i know this is mostly fried air, sorry, but i need to keep the mind active sometimes. and sharing is caring...

here's a hint on the taper i am talking about.Ciao Nasone, come va?
In addition to my calculations I did some flow tests too before drawing the cylinder, and your findings agree nicely with mine. Take a look; those angles are all there :yes:.
(Axial angles 25°, radial taper 22,5°)
319254


Will it be possible to change scavenging models like ESE to handle two strokes with exhaust valves and unsymmetric timing? As I se it, two strokes with piston controled exhausts, is a dying breed.Niels, Piston-controlled exhaust ports open with a velocity of over 1,5 times the mean piston speed. Fourstroke-type exhaust valves open with an initial velocity of zero; they cannot possibly achieve the required blowdown angle.area. And if you enlarge the bore-stroke ratio in order to accommodate bigger valves, you will lose transfer angle.area. In return your engine will become twice as complicated. Doesn't seem a difficult choice to me.

[nasone32]

That's simply fantastic to hear Frits! thank you. Fuel for my mind.

I want to share a thought with the others here, again about the ryger concept. I took a random wave pressure animation in an exhaust pipe (Vannik's great job here)
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/eRqaRxMi0Cs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

the first big pulse coming out and reflecting back is the one we already put to great use.
if you look carefully, after the exhaust port closes, there are still waves going back and forth in the exhaust.
Or better, there's a full wave cycle to be exploited there, when the piston hovers around TDC. with the lowest pressure ratio being exactly like the one we use to suck from the cylinder, and the highest pressure ratio in the 1.5 range.
As someone previously suggested, the port under the exhaust port could be connected to the exhaust port, through the "fake booster" channels in the drawing.

with the right timing there's a lot of potential to overfill the crankcase.

just my 2 cents.

[Norman]

I have seen a note at the European patent office regarding the Ryger patent from December 2007 that it was withdrawn in July 2009. Can anybody here confirm this?

[wobbly]

This is the same wave action that makes a big power boost in a 180* twin that has a 2-1 header, and the pistons cut short
so the port is open when the pistons are at TDC.

[Tunisti]

Or better, there's a full wave cycle to be exploited there, when the piston hovers around TDC. with the lowest pressure ratio being exactly like the one we use to suck from the cylinder, and the highest pressure ratio in the 1.5 range.
As someone previously suggested, the port under the exhaust port could be connected to the exhaust port, through the "fake booster" channels in the drawing.

I'm wondering why Frits hasn't commented that theory I wrote couple pages back.. Ofcourse, the amount of text in here is huge and time is a limited source.. Though I wish there is some other reason not to be involved.:whistle:

Can't really demonstrate right now, but Mota gives these dynamic graphs with crank rotation vs. distance from certain point vs. pressure/velocity/purity etc. And those graphs show that double wave effect very clearly. It's hard to translate the theory accurately, but in short: there is a wave/pulse, that has capability to modify "static" pressure at a certain point at a certain time and with a certain amount of pressure. So if we look at pressure at exhaust port with time intervals X and pressure units Y we can see that the pressures might be somewhat X1=3Y X2=5Y X3=6Y X4=6Y X5=3Y.

Let's say that the time intervals line up close to exhaust port closing. We also happen to know that the "static" cylinder pressure at the same intervals is this: X2=3Y X2=4Y X3=5Y X4=5,5Y X5=6Y.

So, let's calculate (very roughly) how much of the pulse can be exploited (subtraction of the pressures at certain time intervals): X1=0Y X2=1Y X3=1Y X4=0,5Y X5=-3Y. Now we can see that we managed to exploit only 3 out of 5 time intervals to help raising cylinder pressure. So, let's assume that exhaust port closed bethween intervals X4 and X5. We have this leftover pressure of 3Y, that couldn't have been used to raise cylinder pressure, yet is is much higher than pressure in the cranckcase, so why shouldn't we take an advantage of it?

Wow, it was one clumsy presentation, should have just drawn it... In a nutshell there is a p/t graph for wave, and only certain area under that curve can be exploited in traditional case. Not to say that you could ever exploit it all.:p

[nasone32]

This is the same wave action that makes a big power boost in a 180* twin that has a 2-1 header, and the pistons cut short
so the port is open when the pistons are at TDC.

At maximum power the depression wave front presents at 60 degrees before TDC and the peak pressure wavefront at about 60 after TDC.
this gives a port height of about 17mm in a 54 stroke. which looks also pretty realistic from the drawings.
when the engine is overreving the wavefront arrives later, some 15 degrees every 1000 rpm, but since the available window is 120 degrees it can continue its action for a long range of revolutions, this explains the nice overrev.

It could be also possible to use some overlap with the exhaust port, to raise the pressure in the crankcase even more. But i cannot confirm this.

howver if i'm guessing even only a part of this the right way, good job there.

Wobbly you could confirm those numbers with engmod, plotting the pressure traces at the exhaust port.


I'm wondering why Frits hasn't commented that theory I wrote couple pages back..

Frits is under NDA. NDAs can cost you a lot of money

[wobbly]

Here is the pressure ratio at 10mm inside the duct of a KTM85 that will rev to 17,000 like a Ryger.
Its done at peak torque ( 14,000 ) and shows the positive ratio over a large period around TDC, when the piston will
have uncovered the port below the main Ex to help fill the space above the divider plate and below the larger piston diameter.
The only issue I see is that the volume of this space that is later compressed, is very small - but then that appears to be another
part of the overall operating mechanism, as that small volume gets highly compressed BTPO.

[nasone32]

Here is the pressure ratio at 10mm inside the duct of a KTM85 that will rev to 17,000 like a Ryger.
Its done at peak torque ( 14,000 ) and shows the positive ratio over a large period around TDC, when the piston will
have uncovered the port below the main Ex to help fill the space above the divider plate and below the larger piston diameter.
The only issue I see is that the volume of this space that is later compressed, is very small - but then that appears to be another
part of the overall operating mechanism, as that small volume gets highly compressed BTPO.

thank you Wobbly.

I've made an educated guess, by drawing the crankcase from the fiches schematics. there's also a dimensioned drawing of the reed cage, it was useful. Bear in mind there's some good volume in the reed cage duct, in front of the reed valve. At the beginning i thought the crankcase was very small, but i was forgetting about the volume there.
my best guess is 270 - 300cc (provided i guessed correctly the internal crankcase geometry)
this gives a compression ratio of 1.35 - 1.3 :1 taking into account 70cc of piston motion.

Transfer ducts included.

The volume is smaller than we are accustomed to, but it's not that small afterall.

edit: Wobbly there's some impressive depression going on after exhaust port closure!

[MotleyCrue]

Here is the pressure ratio at 10mm inside the duct of a KTM85 that will rev to 17,000 like a Ryger.
Its done at peak torque ( 14,000 ) and shows the positive ratio over a large period around TDC, when the piston will
have uncovered the port below the main Ex to help fill the space above the divider plate and below the larger piston diameter.
The only issue I see is that the volume of this space that is later compressed, is very small - but then that appears to be another
part of the overall operating mechanism, as that small volume gets highly compressed BTPO.

If I understand the trace then if the exhaust was connected to the crankcase for awhile around TDC on a KTM85 at 14000 rpm it would be a bad thing, exhaust gases would flow into the crankcase and there wouldnt be any flow from the crankcase into the exhaust. But on a Ryger engine well maybe it is workable somehow.

[nasone32]

Nope, the first thing that happens 60 degrees before TDC is a suction wave.
and as you can see, a strong one! even stronger than the one that sucks from the cylinder.

It should suck the air out from the crankcase, and as a consequence, from the intake.
some would go into the exhaust port.
then a reverse pressure wave arrives, and puts the escaped (FRESH!) air back into the crankcase, pressurizing it.
then the piston compresses the trankcase and seals the auxiliary port.

much like what already happens with the transfer ports, just in the crankcase...

[SwePatrick]

About this speculations about a port in exhaustduct connected to crankhouse(house under piston, maybe call it 'pumphouse'?)
I just can´t get it.

Why on earth would you want to pressurise the crankcase with dirtygasses when you want to draw fresh gasses through carb?
In that way you lose pressuredifferances between free air and crankcase.
Result is that the carb stops flowing, reed closes.

Convince me.. i just don´t get it.
To me it seems like a perfect way to destroy a perfect running engine.

[wobbly]

You have to "get " that what is sitting in the duct just ouside of the port face ( but before the header starts ) is a slug of fresh A/F mixture.
This can only be usefully used by two effects if they exist.
The mixture can be moved inward by a depression in the " crankhouse " or by a positive pressure ratio sitting in the duct.
In this case when the extra port below the main Ex is opened by the rising piston we see a really big positive pressure ratio, so the A/F sitting in the duct
is easily moved into the expanding volume under the piston.
Just as the dropping piston has very little to do with getting mixture thru the transfers in a "normal " race engine, the Ryger uses the much stronger wave action
to shift extra A/F into the volume above the guide plate.

And yes the really big depression around BDC in that KTM pressure trace is due to a highly optimized pipe shape working with port superposition
to pull plenty of mixture thru the transfers when they are fully open, achieving a high bulk flow rate - again nothing to do with the dropping piston creating
pressure in the case.

[Tunisti]

If you take time to read couple of the last pages, you'll understand that in optimal situation there shouldn't be any exhaust gas in the cranckase. Imagine that the exhaust duct and the header act as a pump, first they're filled, then they're drained. And it all happens with somewhat fresh mixture. The same operation that happens already once in the cycle, but in a slightly different place.

Btw. The operating of this system outside the "sweet spot" would be somewhat terrible. It'd be good to have some kind of governor in the "Ryger port". And that governor could shut the duct fully, when necessary.:rolleyes:

Edit. Couple pages back (P. 1453) I also introduced this theory of that tight gap and homogenous mixture. No one hasn't commented anything about it? Wondering that what if this pulse-efficiency theory of mine works, but it's not found in the Ryger engine...:eek5:

[nine-thirtysix]

I like the idea of a piston controled exhaust to crankcase connection in the Ryger engine and with the homologation paper in mind this is a possible solution.
But the leaked pictures of a early stage engine (which I will not further share) show definitly no connection between the lower ports and the exhaust duct.

If we then look again and see the not really drawn bridge between C-port and intake, the uncorrect half section of the baseplate as well as the not matching lower duct to the port window, I think there are no channels in the exhaust duct.

But keep on thinking maybe it will lead to another development :2thumbsup

[nasone32]

If you take time to read couple of the last pages, you'll understand that in optimal situation there shouldn't be any exhaust gas in the cranckase. Imagine that the exhaust duct and the header act as a pump, first they're filled, then they're drained. And it all happens with somewhat fresh mixture. The same operation that happens already once in the cycle, but in a slightly different place.

Btw. The operating of this system outside the "sweet spot" would be somewhat terrible. It'd be good to have some kind of governor in the "Ryger port". And that governor could shut the duct fully, when necessary.:rolleyes:

Edit. Couple pages back (P. 1453) I also introduced this theory of that tight gap and homogenous mixture. No one hasn't commented anything about it? Wondering that what if this pulse-efficiency theory of mine works, but it's not found in the Ryger engine...:eek5:

About The gap. If I understand what gap you mean, it's not connected to anything. probably it's just space clearance for the piston skirt when it goes down to bdc.

About the sweet spot.
That wave action works in a broad range.
outside this (rather big) sweet spot there are only small fluctuations present at the auxiliary port, the engine works just like a normal engine would do

obviously this is only speculation

[breezy]

About The gap. If I understand what gap you mean, it's not connected to anything. probably it's just space clearance for the piston skirt when it goes down to bdc.

About the sweet spot.
That wave action works in a broad range.
outside this (rather big) sweet spot there are only small fluctuations present at the auxiliary port, the engine works just like a normal engine would do

obviously this is only speculation

Having again looked at the posted ryger homogenization pictures , there are quite a few inconsistency s between the pictures that i feel they have been doctored and not all is revealed...

[MotleyCrue]

Nope, the first thing that happens 60 degrees before TDC is a suction wave.
and as you can see, a strong one! even stronger than the one that sucks from the cylinder.

It should suck the air out from the crankcase, and as a consequence, from the intake.
some would go into the exhaust port.
then a reverse pressure wave arrives, and puts the escaped (FRESH!) air back into the crankcase, pressurizing it.
then the piston compresses the trankcase and seals the auxiliary port.

much like what already happens with the transfer ports, just in the crankcase...

When Wobbly described it before (for a 2 into 1 pipe twin) he mentioned about half as much timing as the transfer timing so I reckon +/30 degrees, but there is no suction between + 25 and -30 degrees on that trace. A 2 into 1 pipe twin would have different pressures I would think.

Even if the crankcase connected to the exhaust much earlier than that, like +/-60, port timing is symmetrical so it looks to me like there is a lot more time of flow from the exhaust to the crankcase than from the crankcase to the exhaust, so there might be more flow through the reeds for a bit but the net would be pumping exhaust (real burnt exhaust gases) back into the crankcase.

[MotleyCrue]

Btw. The operating of this system outside the "sweet spot" would be somewhat terrible.




Maybe that's why they all seized on the track.:nono:

[marsheng]

It stopped suddenly on the track.

Ok, you have fooled me, what have you done with the piston ?

I have a small shelf for 'Offerings to the gods" but there is nothing to display in this case.

[2T Institute]

Under construction amazingly by an 18 yr old ......the yoof of today and their computers ;)

[jonny quest]

It's my belief that the exhaust skirt of Ryger terminates in the spacer plate. The clearance slot in spacer plate does not open up into crankcase.

Are you all in agreement?

2t institute, show us more of that twin, looks exciting! Are the cases 3d printed at this point?

[F5 Dave]

Probably did it on his phone.

[jasonu]

Probably did it on his phone.

While driving...

[Bert]

Under construction amazingly by an 18 yr old ......the yoof of today and their computers ;)

Is this the same engine shown at Milan?

http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news-new-bikes/vins-powerlight-two-stroke-revealed/28510.html

Would make a very cool bucket motor..

[M.Holder]

Hi,

no, it is not the same engine.

You can follow the project here:
http://www.2t-special.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5065

[SwePatrick]

It's my belief that the exhaust skirt of Ryger terminates in the spacer plate. The clearance slot in spacer plate does not open up into crankcase.

Are you all in agreement?

2t institute, show us more of that twin, looks exciting! Are the cases 3d printed at this point?

Yes, slot in spacerplate is just space given to accept pistonskirt, nothing else.

[SwePatrick]

You have to "get " that what is sitting in the duct just ouside of the port face ( but before the header starts ) is a slug of fresh A/F mixture.
This can only be usefully used by two effects if they exist.
The mixture can be moved inward by a depression in the " crankhouse " or by a positive pressure ratio sitting in the duct.
In this case when the extra port below the main Ex is opened by the rising piston we see a really big positive pressure ratio, so the A/F sitting in the duct
is easily moved into the expanding volume under the piston.
Just as the dropping piston has very little to do with getting mixture thru the transfers in a "normal " race engine, the Ryger uses the much stronger wave action
to shift extra A/F into the volume above the guide plate.

And yes the really big depression around BDC in that KTM pressure trace is due to a highly optimized pipe shape working with port superposition
to pull plenty of mixture thru the transfers when they are fully open, achieving a high bulk flow rate - again nothing to do with the dropping piston creating
pressure in the case.


Ok,, i almost 'get it', but still ain´t convinced.
Just to much of a gamble here.
'off' pipe it wouldn´t work good if tuned to work good 'in pipe' and vice versa.
If holding engine revs stabe at one rpm for hours it might work.
But in a shifterkart who is very dynamic in revband and different exhausttemps all the time, rpms altering all the time.
Nahh..

No wonder they seem to seize on track.

[nasone32]

Ok,, i almost 'get it', but still ain´t convinced.
Just to much of a gamble here.
'off' pipe it wouldn´t work good if tuned to work good 'in pipe' and vice versa.
If holding engine revs stabe at one rpm for hours it might work.
But in a shifterkart who is very dynamic in revband and different exhausttemps all the time, rpms altering all the time.
Nahh..

No wonder they seem to seize on track.

Not really.
Off pipe there's the same wave action going on, just with a much reduced amplitude.
at worst it would work like a normal 2 stroke when off-pipe.
my 95cc engine.
black is max torque @ 15000 rpm
red @10000 rpm

http://i.imgur.com/yhU53ov.jpg

[Tunisti]

About The gap. If I understand what gap you mean, it's not connected to anything. probably it's just space clearance for the piston skirt when it goes down to bdc.


It's my belief that the exhaust skirt of Ryger terminates in the spacer plate. The clearance slot in spacer plate does not open up into crankcase.


Yes, slot in spacerplate is just space given to accept pistonskirt, nothing else.

If you're considering that the slot/gap I was talking about was the slot for exhaust side piston skirt, I was misunderstood. Look at the drawings and calculate a bit. You'll figure it out what I meant.


Just wondering whether the (controversial) relatively tight gap (3mm calculated from the drawings) between the adapter plate´s cylindrical part and the "Ryger ports" in the cylinder wall could have a specific meaning. To open the name of HCCI=Homogeunous Charge Compression Ignition, we can see that there must be something in that motor, which makes the charge homogenous enough. Okay, we have this 30mm carburator, but I´d bet that it´s not capable to mix the fuel into the air well enough. Then we have this space beneath the piston, it´s pumping volume is 70cm^3 and it has somewhat small passage. Let's say that it's somewhat 1,5cm^2. Assuming that there would be 70cm^3 of mixture to be pumped through that 1,5cm^2 passage bethween TDC and BDC we could make this coarse assumption, that the mixture would have speed of at least 265m/s@17krpm through that relatively small gap. Sounds like a good change to force the mixture into homogenous state?


'off' pipe it wouldn´t work good if tuned to work good 'in pipe' and vice versa.
If holding engine revs stabe at one rpm for hours it might work.
But in a shifterkart who is very dynamic in revband and different exhausttemps all the time, rpms altering all the time.


Btw. The operating of this system outside the "sweet spot" would be somewhat terrible. It'd be good to have some kind of governor in the "Ryger port". And that governor could shut the duct fully, when necessary.

E: Nice graphs nasone32! Could you make those calculations at 12krpm and 6krpm?

[MotleyCrue]

Not really.
Off pipe there's the same wave action going on, just with a much reduced amplitude.
at worst it would work like a normal 2 stroke when off-pipe.
my 95cc engine.
black is max torque @ 15000 rpm
red @10000 rpm

http://i.imgur.com/yhU53ov.jpg

There must be some kind of vacuum in the crankcase approaching TDC maybe 0.8 to 0.9 on the scale, to me it looks like at 10000 rpm its all backflow from the exhaust to the crankcase the entire time you have circled, and at 15000 rpm there is back flow from the exhaust to the crankcase most of the time you have circled. Just sayin...

I can appreciate that a 2 into 1 twin cylinder would be a different beast than a single.

[wobbly]

Hey Motley, you must be looking at the screen thru broken Warehouse glasses.
On the LH side of the pressure sweep the ratio is above atmospheric right up to EPO, then on the RH side as we get past EPC the ratio is below
atmospheric the whole time ( apart from a small upward bump at 10,000 ) - for both the 10,000 and 15,000 traces.

[MotleyCrue]

Hey Motley, you must be looking at the screen thru broken Warehouse glasses.
On the LH side of the pressure sweep the ratio is above atmospheric right up to EPO, then on the RH side as we get past EPC the ratio is below
atmospheric the whole time ( apart from a small upward bump at 10,000 ) - for both the 10,000 and 15,000 traces.

I can see atmospheric pressure no sweat through my warehouse glasses but I don't think the pressure in the crankcase is atmospheric at that time (BTDC), I put forth that the pressure in the crankcase is probably 0.8 to 0.9 bar BTDC. If flow is from the crankcase to the exhaust then the exhaust pressure has to be below 0.8 to 0.9 bar, and I dont see that at all at 10000 rpm and only for may 25-30 % of the opening time at 15000 rpm.

Is there a crankcase pressure trace that shows otherwise?

[SwePatrick]

Not really.
Off pipe there's the same wave action going on, just with a much reduced amplitude.
at worst it would work like a normal 2 stroke when off-pipe.
my 95cc engine.
black is max torque @ 15000 rpm
red @10000 rpm

http://i.imgur.com/yhU53ov.jpg

Still not convinced, As i´ve got my own dyno with logging of heat in exhaust i have tested a lot with different temprature in pipe, Isolating pipe etc etc etc.
And a red line thoughout all tests is that every pull is starting with about 200-250degree celsius(5000rpm) and ends up with 450-640 degree depending on setup.
This results in severeal hundreds of rpm difference were engine hits 'stop' in pipe.
And also a lot of difference where the peak power is.
If i got about 620 at end of pull the peak power is at ~12800rpm.
And if i delete isolating i end up in about 450degree, and the peak power is at 11700-11900rpm

This is a ~1000rpm wide area, a quite huge difference in tuned length of pipe.
Therefor i say off pipe, the pipe tunes at an another rpm than 'in pipe' due to dynamic change of heat.
That means that reflecting pulse arrives at different crankdegrees when heat is changing.

Rgds.

[nasone32]

Crankcase pressure is in that range, true, but i'd stick to looking at what happens at maximum torque and after that point.
I think such a design would imply a different power curve shape. if you have, say, 4000 rpm useful over the max torque, who cares what happens at mid revs.

Also, speculation, suppose we get only a compression wave from exhaust. worst case.
after EPC i'm not sure we have just exhaust gases in the exhaust duct. maybe the air purity is high, due to escaped fresh gases.
and surely the increased pressure in the crankcase compensates for decreased air purity.

this could also be a trick to HCCI
and recirculating some escaped fresh gases back to the crankcase supports the "clean engine" claim further.

[Tunisti]

...after EPC i'm not sure we have just exhaust gases in the exhaust duct. maybe the air purity is high, due to escaped fresh gases.
and surely the increased pressure in the crankcase compensates for decreased air purity.

this could also be a trick to HCCI
and recirculating some escaped fresh gases back to the crankcase supports the "clean engine" claim further.

Wrote about that HCCI and internal EGR thing before. I think that under and over the power band there's much fresh mixture inside the exhaust duct, when exhaust port closes. The pipe is capable of sucking fresh mixture into the exhaust duct, even though the engine is running under or over the power band. The proplem under the power band is that the pulse arrives too soon and the mixture leaks out before exhaust port closes. And when we are over the power band, the pipe's pulse arrives too late, and the exhaust port is already closed when the pulse tries to push the mixture in exhaust duct back into the cylinder.

So, when we are on the power band, there shouldn't be fresh mixture in the exhaust duct when the exhaust port closes. Also in this situation the pressure in the exhaust duct should drop somewhat dramatically (about 50 deg BTDC) according to the graph. If the assumed port opens somewhat 60-40 deg BTDC, there should be flow from the cranckcase to the exhaust duct. Assuming that the timing is symmetrical, the port would close at 60-40 ged ATDC, leading to about 1.4 bar pressure when closing. Outside the powerband there would be flow from the exhaust duct to the cranckcase when the "Ryger port" opens, but in this situation there would be fresh mixture in the exhaust duct. And when we want a green motor, it'd be better to take that mixture from the exhaust duct and recycle it. Even though that would mean lower flow via the inlet duct.

Bad sides of that? Yes, the mixture inside the exhaust duct would be warmer, hence not so tense as the mixture coming from the inlet duct. But on the other hand, would the pumping losses be smaller when the mixture is recycled, there sure is less distance for the flow in this method? And then there's the problem of exhaust gases slipping into the cranckcase, either by mixing with the fresh mix in exhaust duct, or just by pulse actions in larger concentrations. Here comes the HCCI aspect and green values of this motor.

If we assume that this method allows the exhaust gases to get into the "crankcase" at some or all rpms, there is this "high velocity homogenisation"-theory I wrote earlier. And it includes the "gap". Assuming that the high velocity in that gap makes the A/F mixture well homogenisated, then it should be able to homogenisate the exhaust gases somewhat well into the 70cc's of A/F mixture. Therefore the exhaust gases wouldn't cause pockets of unburnt/slowly burning mixture when the ignition occurs, those would otherwise occur if there would be big lumps of exhaust gas in the mixture when ignited.

And to quote myself, here's the internal-EGR thoughts and "high velocity homogenisation"-theory again:


Just wondering whether the (controversial) relatively tight gap (3mm calculated from the drawings) between the adapter plate´s cylindrical part and the "Ryger ports" in the cylinder wall could have a specific meaning. To open the name of HCCI=Homogeunous Charge Compression Ignition, we can see that there must be something in that motor, which makes the charge homogenous enough. Okay, we have this 30mm carburator, but I´d bet that it´s not capable to mix the fuel into the air well enough. Then we have this space beneath the piston, it´s pumping volume is 70cm^3 and it has somewhat small passage. Let's say that it's somewhat 1,5cm^2. Assuming that there would be 70cm^3 of mixture to be pumped through that 1,5cm^2 passage bethween TDC and BDC we could make this coarse assumption, that the mixture would have speed of at least 265m/s@17krpm through that relatively small gap. Sounds like a good change to force the mixture into homogenous state?
....The pulse theory, would offer somewhat much preheating for the mixture, and also some internal EGR-characteristics. Just to help the HCCI to stay in good state. The internal EGR-fuction would naturally be stronger when the engine is running below the sweet spot - therefore it´d help help the HCCI to get started more easily.

[wobbly]

Here is the case pressure ratio at 14,000 for the KTM85

[MotleyCrue]

Crankcase pressure is in that range, true, but i'd stick to looking at what happens at maximum torque and after that point.
I think such a design would imply a different power curve shape. if you have, say, 4000 rpm useful over the max torque, who cares what happens at mid revs.



Another way to look at it, if this exhaust gas backflow into the crankcase thing works, then why would it have to be a Ryger engine to work, why not on a regular single cylinder engine and if so would not someone have built one already and we'd all have one by now because of the 4000 overrev ? Knowing that it has been done on 2 into 1 pipe twins, then it seems reasonable to expect it has been tried on a single too.

A 2 into 1 pipe twin I can see possibilities, there is a pulse in the pipe every 180 degrees at every engine speed, that way the pulse setting up the TDC conditions is fixed and not a reflection of a reflection of something from somewhere like on a single at some engine speeds.

[TZ350]

Page 1460

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_M34QX5oqSM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

Fun days racing at the Cemetery Circuit Wanganui, Buckets used to be able to race there but rumor has it, they stopped being invited because, being so nimble they would humble the big bikes.

[SwePatrick]

Is it actually proven to be HCCI mode, or just mumbojumbo from people that wants to hide things behind smoke and mirrors?

Cause i don´t see how it´s gonna be 'needed' for those rpms the power is within, old 100cc karts revved above 18k without problems.

[nasone32]

okay. now I'm also pretty sure that port is not connected to the exhaust.
I still wonder if with proper design is possible to use that wave pulse.


Fun days racing at the Cemetery Circuit Wanganui, Buckets used to be able to race there but rumor has it, they stopped being invited because, being so nimble they would humble the big bike.
nice video mate. what bike class is that in the video?

[MotleyCrue]

okay. now I'm also pretty sure that port is not connected to the exhaust.
I still wonder if with proper design is possible to use that wave pulse.




I think yes for a window of rpm. Outside that window of rpm the possibility of large quantities of 500C + burnt exhaust entering the crankcase might be a show stopping event. I don't think a 2 into 1 twin would have this problem though.

[adegnes]

....

Check your PM's Muciek.

[speedpro]

Page 1460

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_M34QX5oqSM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

Fun days racing at the Cemetery Circuit Wanganui, Buckets used to be able to race there but rumor has it, they stopped being invited because, being so nimble they would humble the big bike.

There's been 2 fires there I think. One was a Hossack with girder style front end with a Honda 500 single. Some guy from Oz I think. The other was a GPz550 with the previous years World championship winning cylinders and head from the Moriwaki team.

They stopped accepting entries from buckets because we were too slow. I managed mid pack finishes there on mine and always had to start off the back of the grid, except when they put me in "Clubmans". Now that was some scary racing, RG50 with TS100 engine lined up on the grid next to some guy on a GSXR1100. They didn't allocate grids so I used to race round and make sure I wasn't at the back. Most of the field would drag me off going to the first turn and I'd dive past them into the corner, or passing them as they backed off for the right turn going through the cemetary. I used to change into 6th in the middle and lift the front wheel over the hump as you change direction. The bike was so light, as Rob said you could just dive past people as they started to turn. Had many a "conversation" in the pits with other Clubman riders mainly.

[nasone32]

About the video and stuff, was there some actual accident involved or they stopped accepting buckets because they feared it might have happened?

I noticed one thing on the ryger. the pipe length is quite long for an engine running in the 17k range. exhaust gases must be so hot.
someone could play in engmod, and see if tinkering a bit with the prescribed combustion model can replicate some results.

[speedpro]

No incident I'm aware of. I think I was the last one to enter and initially was denied entry, by Barbara. A friend knew her and argued my case and finally I was allowed entry. Back of the grid starts that year despite times that should have put me a row or 2 further up. Even good finishes didn't help for the next race. I spent most of tbe day angry and vowed never to enter again.

[SS90]

I noticed one thing on the ryger. the pipe length is quite long for an engine running in the 17k range. exhaust gases must be so hot.
.

I have been waiting for someone to bring this up.

[MotleyCrue]

I have been waiting for someone to bring this up.


And yet HCCI would make exhaust gases cooler not hotter.

Maybe at the very high revs plain back pressure from the stinger becomes enough that the reverse cone pulse doesnt matter, or maybe the reverse cone pulse comes back into favor at 35-40% overrev as I proposed many pages ago.

[2T Institute]

2t institute, show us more of that twin, looks exciting! Are the cases 3d printed at this point?
CNC to soon follow

[nasone32]

Wobbly can you make a test? I think You can make hcci in engmod by changing from turbulent to prescribed burn rate. From research papers the combustion starts some 2-4 degrees atdc and is completed in just 4-6 degrees. (so you should set advance 0 and delay 4, duration 6)
The combustion efficiency is something like 94% (you could also leave this out, so we appreciate the combustion duration alone?)

I recall once i was using methanol with a 22:1 head (on a 70cc engine) and the kill switch did not kill the engine at all. once warmed up, it was idling at 5000 rpm and it scared the hell out of me. So i removed the spark plug connection to kill it instantly (almost dying from the shock) and the engine continued to work just as normal.
the fool in me thought to drive that thing. with big surprise I could drive it around no problems, it revved like a mad and produced tons of power.
I was sure it was "dieseling" but i was also afraid of killing the engine, plus i could not find suitable crankcase seals that could survive methanol for long, and i had some problems with the carburettor too.
It was many years ago and I was young and i had little money to play with. So after some pistons offered to the gods i left methanol.
I even made a shorter exhaust to compensate for the lower exhaust temperature.
I could not use a dyno at that time but since it was a CVT transmission i can approximate the power gain, I went from 3.8 to 5 grams of centrifugal weight and from 14k rpm on petrol to 15,5k rpm on methanol so there was at least a 40% power gain.
Today I am a CVT transmission developer for a big industry so I am 100% sure of that power increase.
For sure a fraction of that power gain is due to methanol alone, but i don't think you gain 40% of power on methanol alone on a liquid cooled engine.
now I think it was HCCI.

[adegnes]

Wobbly can you make a test? I think You can make hcci in engmod by changing from turbulent to prescribed burn rate. From research papers the combustion starts some 2-4 degrees atdc and is completed in just 4-6 degrees. (so you should set advance 0 and delay 4, duration 6)
The combustion efficiency is something like 94% (you could also leave this out, so we appreciate the combustion duration alone?)

I recall once i was using methanol with a 22:1 head (on a 70cc engine) and the kill switch did not kill the engine at all. So i removed the spark plug connection (almost dying from the shock) and the engine continued to work just as normal. I could drive it around no problems, it revved like a mad and produced tons of power.
I was sure it was "dieseling" but i was also afraid of killing the engine, plus i could not find suitable crankcase seals that could survive methanol for long, and i had some problems with the carburettor too.
It was many years ago and I was young and i had little money to play with. So after some pistons offered to the gods i left methanol.
I even made a shorter exhaust to compensate for the lower exhaust temperature.
I could not use a dyno at that time but since it was a CVT transmission i can approximate the power gain, I went from 3.8 to 5 grams of centrifugal weight and from 14k rpm on petrol to 15,5k rpm on methanol so there was at least a 40% power gain.
Today I am a CVT transmission developer for a big industry so I am 100% sure of that power increase.
For sure a fraction of that power gain is due to methanol alone, but i don't think you gain 40% of power on methanol alone on a liquid cooled engine.
now I think it was HCCI.

Please explain what you base the 40% increase on.
I can't see how you can say anything about power increase from cvt weights and rpm alone.
In my understanding, increased roller weight in the variator would just make it maintain a lower rpm while doing its "thing", regardless of power, and the rpm increase just tells you there was a rpm increase.

[nasone32]

You just see the consequence. let's dive a bit deeper.
a heavier roller weight makes the variator open faster. this is why on the same engine it makes lower rpm with more weight.
also rpm make the vario open faster, because of increased centrifugal force.
so if you both increase the rpm AND roller weight, the variator opens (using above numbers) 10% faster due to rpm, and 31% faster due to more weight.
if the engine is not stalling (i.e. rpm stay steady) it means the power produced can cope with the increased "gear shifting speed".

this is the same reason why a bigger capacity engine requires heavier roller weight. it has more power, thus the variator can shift gear faster, and you accellerate faster as a consequence.

[adegnes]

You just see the consequence. let's dive a bit deeper.
a heavier roller weight makes the variator open faster. this is why on the same engine it makes lower rpm with more weight.
also rpm make the vario open faster, because of increased centrifugal force.
so if you both increase the rpm AND roller weight, the variator opens (using above numbers) 10% faster due to rpm, and 31% faster due to more weight.
if the engine is not stalling (i.e. rpm stay steady) it means the power produced can cope with the increased "gear shifting speed".

this is the same reason why a bigger capacity engine requires heavier roller weight. it has more power, thus the variator can shif gear faster, and you accellerate faster as a consequence.

Ah... I see.
With my reasoning any engine, 10 or 1000hp, with the same exact cvt configuration would maintain the same rpm regardles of power, which of course doesn't make sense...
Thanks for enlightening me!
Feeling stupid... :brick:

[MotleyCrue]

Please explain what you base the 40% increase on.
I can't see how you can say anything about power increase from cvt weights and rpm alone.
In my understanding, increased roller weight in the variator would just make it maintain a lower rpm while doing its "thing", regardless of power, and the rpm increase just tells you there was a rpm increase.

A power change on a CVT is a common thing to figure out, almost like a mini dyno except it only runs one engine speed at a time without stopping and changing stuff (weights) to look at another speed. Unless something else like ramp changes were done to the CVT between the gas and methanol tests then the weight change and rpm change Nasone mentioned would indicate at least 40% more power.

Anybody that ever ran a carb dry on methanol on idle before shutting the engine off knows how it loves to rev very high just before the fuel is all gone, but racing lean methanol I don't think is possible or else it would be a commonplace thing to do.

[adegnes]

A power change on a CVT is a common thing to figure out, almost like a mini dyno except it only runs one engine speed at a time without stopping and changing stuff (weights) to look at another speed. Unless something else like ramp changes were done to the CVT between the gas and methanol tests then the weight change and rpm change Nasone mentioned would indicate at least 40% more power.
.

Thanks for explaining!
I've built and tuned more than a few cvt bikes, can't believe I've never thought of this relationship.

[MotleyCrue]

Thanks for explaining!
I've built and tuned more than a few cvt bikes, can't believe I've never thought of this relationship.

Probably a lot of people never thought of it, but I bet the wheels are turning in your head now about how to use it,:2thumbsup now that you know.

[nasone32]

thumb rule for power gain, supposing the engine stays steady (and stayed steady before)

{[ (new weight * new rpm) / (old weight * old rpm) ] -1} *100 = %power gained

of course there's always some belt slipping involved, so... thumb rule.
also centrifugal force goes linear with weight, but with speed squared, so it's an approximation for small variations in rpm. but proved reliable in practice.

[Frits Overmars]

For sure a fraction of that power gain is due to methanol alone, but i don't think you gain 40% of power on methanol alone on a liquid cooled engine. now I think it was HCCI.If you wish to keep the same Lambda-value for methanol that you used for petrol, you will need 2,265 kg of methanol for each kg of petrol.
Methanol has only 2/3 the net heating value of petrol but since the engines passes so much more methanol, it should give a 50% power gain, all other things being equal (which of course they never are).
I think it is very likely that you also experienced HCCI. Then the power gain should be even bigger than 50% , if it were not for the lower exhaust gas temperature probably messing up the pipe resonance.

[MotleyCrue]

Pretty sure methanol is only half, or a smidge less than half, the heating value of gasoline. Racecars around here gain very little if any peak HP over race gas, bit more peak torque though on the methanol.

[Frits Overmars]

Pretty sure methanol is only half, or a smidge less than half, the heating value of gasoline. Racecars around here gain very little if any peak HP over race gas, bit more peak torque though on the methanol.That will teach me to rely on wikipedia. I can't even find it back where it said 2/3. You're absolutely right Motley.
319290

[nasone32]

when i used to play with methanol i estimated about a 20% gain, by a slight increased heat output (should be 10% more when corrected for AFR), intake charge cooling (air density) and raised compression ratio.
I made a shorter pipe aswell. the engine on methanol pipe had max power around 15,5k, with the standard pipe on methanol around 11,5k.

I went straight from 14,7:1 to 22,4:1. I also made a 20,5:1 head but never tried that.
The engine worked reliably somewhat, but something in the fuel line could not cope with the fuel consumption and the carb dried out and became lean after a while.
now I know i should have used a fuel pump or a pressurized fuel tank.

with methanol, viton seals swell and become twice as big, while NBR seals wear in no time because the seal lip becomes too soft.
this led to numerous pistons on the sacrifical shelf.

I thought to build my own metal/ptfe seals but eventually i left.

I also noted it was totally insensitive to ignition advance, at this point it could have been due to HCCI?

[wobbly]

When using methanol in karting before it was banned, I used it with bigger compression ( up to 18 from 15.5 ) and the exact same ignition and pipe designs.
We used to run AvGas at around 1280*F and this was the egt for best power.
When changing to Methanol I found that the best power with that com was had at around 1000*F, but that with the same pipe it would rev even harder.
This was due to the carbs natural tendency to richen up, over the top of the power band and is why solenoid powerjets work so well when using petrol.
Unlike petrol that drops off the power rapidly when going richer than about 10% under stochiometric ,this makes no difference to methanol power at all.
In fact going over 20% rich you can make more power with even more com and kill any tendency to deto by simply drowning the combustion in unburt fuel.
But this drops the egt too much, and you then need to shorten the pipe.
That setup had less mid, more peak, but less overev, and was simply not as fast on track as the lower com version.
I found that the stock pipe length made more mid and the high com gave better peak, then the fuels natural A/F characteristics giving better overev.
Using this setup we could get mid 70RWHp from a 250MX engine that made mid 60s on Avgas, about a 15% increase.
The way to stop seal issues ( and stop moisture in the methanol from rusting all the steel wear surfaces ) was to flush thru the engine on petrol/oil for a few spluttering minutes after every race meeting.

[adegnes]

Probably a lot of people never thought of it, but I bet the wheels are turning in your head now about how to use it,:2thumbsup now that you know.

You bet!


thumb rule for power gain, supposing the engine stays steady (and stayed steady before)

{[ (new weight * new rpm) / (old weight * old rpm) ] -1} *100 = %power gained

of course there's always some belt slipping involved, so... thumb rule.
also centrifugal force goes linear with weight, but with speed squared, so it's an approximation for small variations in rpm. but proved reliable in practice.

Thanks for posting the equation and thumbs-up for different-brackets-use!


when i used to play with methanol i estimated about a 20% gain, by a slight increased heat output (should be 10% more when corrected for AFR), intake charge cooling (air density) and raised compression ratio.
I made a shorter pipe aswell. the engine on methanol pipe had max power around 15,5k, with the standard pipe on methanol around 11,5k.

I went straight from 14,7:1 to 22,4:1. I also made a 20,5:1 head but never tried that.
The engine worked reliably somewhat, but something in the fuel line could not cope with the fuel consumption and the carb dried out and became lean after a while.
now I know i should have used a fuel pump or a pressurized fuel tank.

with methanol, viton seals swell and become twice as big, while NBR seals wear in no time because the seal lip becomes too soft.
this led to numerous pistons on the sacrifical shelf.

I thought to build my own metal/ptfe seals but eventually i left.

I also noted it was totally insensitive to ignition advance, at this point it could have been due to HCCI?


When using methanol in karting before it was banned, I used it with bigger compression ( up to 18 from 15.5 ) and the exact same ignition and pipe designs.
We used to run AvGas at around 1280*F and this was the egt for best power.
When changing to Methanol I found that the best power with that com was had at around 1000*F, but that with the same pipe it would rev even harder.
This was due to the carbs natural tendency to richen up, over the top of the power band and is why solenoid powerjets work so well when using petrol.
Unlike petrol that drops off the power rapidly when going richer than about 10% under stochiometric ,this makes no difference to methanol power at all.
In fact going over 20% rich you can make more power with even more com and kill any tendency to deto by simply drowning the combustion in unburt fuel.
But this drops the egt too much, and you then need to shorten the pipe.
That setup had less mid, more peak, but less overev, and was simply not as fast on track as the lower com version.
I found that the stock pipe length made more mid and the high com gave better peak, then the fuels natural A/F characteristics giving better overev.
Using this setup we could get mid 70RWHp from a 250MX engine that made mid 60s on Avgas, about a 15% increase.
The way to stop seal issues ( and stop moisture in the methanol from rusting all the steel wear surfaces ) was to flush thru the engine on petrol/oil for a few spluttering minutes after every race meeting.

There's no regulations for me to follow, just building stuff for fun, I must admit I'm getting increasingly tempted to give the jungle juice a go...

Is there any commercialy available seals that can withstand it? Is the "purging" people do enough to keep the seals living a few hours of runtime?

[speedpro]

Check the chart that Frits posted - What is "Still Gas"?

[Grumph]

The way to stop seal issues ( and stop moisture in the methanol from rusting all the steel wear surfaces ) was to flush thru the engine on petrol/oil for a few spluttering minutes after every race meeting.

Yep, a small squirt bottle of mix used to fill the float chamber, run it, then drain the carb and lines works fine.

When i was doing a lot of speedway carbs on Meth, I always knew who wasn't cleaning the system after a meeting. The carbs would come back to me a block of white corrosion.....

[nasone32]

I always drained the fuel system and run a minute on petrol after methanol, but i really had no luck with the seals. After 10 minutes they started to leak.
If you want to try the jungle juice:
Now they make viton seals with ptfe lip (for scooter engines, polini makes them) i'd try those ones. Ptfe has no problems.
Pay attention also to the reed cage, if it's covered in viton it can swell. Simple rubber can work. To avoid problems i used a full aluminium one.
Another part that can have problems is the needle valve in the carb, not all can sustain methanol (i found out at my expense).
Oh and also epoxy...

[Frits Overmars]

Check the chart that Frits posted - What is "Still Gas"?It's registered under 'gaseous'; otherwise I would have thought it was moonshine....


If you want to try the jungle juice:
Now they make viton seals with ptfe lip (for scooter engines, polini makes them) i'd try those ones. Ptfe has no problems.
Pay attention also to the reed cage, if it's covered in viton it can swell. Simple rubber can work. To avoid problems i used a full aluminium one. Another part that can have problems is the needle valve in the carb, not all can sustain methanol (i found out at my expense).
Oh and also epoxy...And the worst of all possible jungle juice victims: synthetic cages in crankshaft bearings. Some of those cannot even cope with some two-stroke oils...

O, and when playing with methanol: do not try to jet it till the sparkplugs are dry. They're supposed to stay wet with this beverage.

[adegnes]

I always drained the fuel system and run a minute on petrol after methanol, but i really had no luck with the seals. After 10 minutes they started to leak.
If you want to try the jungle juice:
Now they make viton seals with ptfe lip (for scooter engines, polini makes them) i'd try those ones. Ptfe has no problems.
Pay attention also to the reed cage, if it's covered in viton it can swell. Simple rubber can work. To avoid problems i used a full aluminium one.
Another part that can have problems is the needle valve in the carb, not all can sustain methanol (i found out at my expense).
Oh and also epoxy...


It's registered under 'gaseous'; otherwise I would have thought it was moonshine....

And the worst of all possible jungle juice victims: synthetic cages in crankshaft bearings. Some of those cannot even cope with some two-stroke oils...

O, and when playing with methanol: do not try to jet it till the sparkplugs are dry. They're supposed to stay wet with this beverage.

My crankcase has a bunch of epoxy in it, synthetic cages in the bearings and viton seals...oh well, at least there's no reed cage to worry about!

I must admit, in a strange way, it would feel kinda cool to use a fuel that was constantly trying to eat up the engine.
Maybe throw in some nitro to, for good meassure.

[Frits Overmars]

Adegnes, I am delighted to tell you that red-fuming nitric acid is considered a nice oxydant by liquid propellant rocket scientists.
Just don't forget to put on your asbestos underwear before you get on yer bike.

[adegnes]

Adegnes, I am delighted to tell you that rocket scientists have established that red-fuming nitric acid is a nice oxydant.
Just don't forget your asbestos underwear when you get on yer bike.

Hi! This is Alex' girlfriend, please stop planting ideas in his head!

[Frits Overmars]

Yeah, sorry about the asbestos underwear.

[nasone32]

I'd like to link these websites, they give nice informations about various fluids chemical compatibility with rubbers and metals.
the best practice remains direct testing by 24h immersion

http://www.coleparmer.com/Chemical-Resistance
http://www.efunda.com/designstandards/oring/oring_chemical.cfm

viton is FKM.

I'm not used to think a low percentage of nitromethane as very dangerous. Also nitro is almost impossible to ignite by accident. Also if you look around, everybody states that it does not mix well with petrol, but i had successfully mixed 10% nitro with pump gas it by adding a 3% acetone in the mix (But don't tell your girlfriend).
Nasty chemical experiments, i know... but I'm sure someone here did even nastier things.

edit: I really don't know about nitric acid production when used in these low percentages...

[lohring]

We did a series of fuel tests on a 26 cc industrial type engine used in model boat racing. The interesting part was how much nitro we could mix with various "gasolines". We found we could get 5% nitro to mix, at least for a short time, with 87 octane, non ethanol gasoline. We had no problem adding 15% nitro to premium gasoline that contained only 8% ethanol because ethanol is a mutual solvent. It was easy to mix methanol with the 87 octane gasoline and we tested 50% and 75% methanol mixtures.

None of the above fuels made any more power because the only thing we changed was the carb mixture setting for best power. More alcohol required a richer mixture. We needed to play with ignition timing and compression ratio to get an improvement, but the engines have a fixed ignition and a one piece cylinder. I also suspect a pipe designed for lower temperatures would have helped.

Lohring Miller

[Frits Overmars]

Nasty chemical experiments, i know... but I'm sure someone here did even nastier things.
edit: I really don't know about nitric acid production when used in these low percentages...When I was about 14, I mixed my own black powder and sold it to my school mates. At home I made nitroglycerin in small doses. And once I accidentally made chlorine, of which you only need a small dose... It's a miracle I survived my investigative youth.
If you have a bike made of gold, you don't need to worry about nitric acid. Otherwise low percentages of the stuff will quietly nibble your bike away...

[bjorn.clauw.1]

When I was about 14, I mixed my own black powder and sold it to my school mates. At home I made nitroglycerin in small doses. And once I accidentally made chlorine, of which you only need a small dose... It's a miracle I survived my investigative youth.
If you have a bike made of gold, you don't need to worry about nitric acid. Otherwise low percentages of the stuff will quietly nibble your bike away...

mixing it with hydrochloric acid will make the golden bike owners worry a bit.

(cooking nitroglycerin demands some serious self-confidence, ever got any on your skin?)

[trevor amos]

Hi,
I ruined the main bearings on my OS40 4t model aircraft engine after running methanol with 10% nitro, I neglected to flush the engine through with nitro less fuel for a few moments, didn`t take long for the nitric acid to destroy the whole bottom end
Nasty stuff that acid and equally nasty stuff is methanol, be very careful with it you have been warned!

Trevor

[TZ350]

When I was about 14, I mixed my own black powder and sold it to my school mates. At home I made nitroglycerin in small doses. And once I accidentally made chlorine, of which you only need a small dose... It's a miracle I survived my investigative youth.


319308

The 60's and 70's were simpler times.

319307

Now official over reaction can make modern life dangerous for an inquisitive youth.

[adegnes]

I'll stick to my relatively safe toulene/xylene/gasoline mix for now.
On a side note, methanol is very difficult to obtain in Norway cause some people made a habit of drinking it. Also anything with "nitro" in the name has gotten really restricted.

[Lightbulb]

I was told that nitric acid is not formed when Nitromethane is burnt in an engine. But I disagree. Anyone standing behind a nitro burning engine knows the burning sensation of the exhaust gases through your nostrils. I use ATF oil as an after run oil. It will neutralise the acid residues from the nitro fuel. It also helps to run the engine out of fuel when hot. While still warm is when I add the AFT oil. I have not come across pure Nitromethane for more than 25 years. The test the guy I bought it from, was he had a small lid, put some nitro into it. Then he would get a match light it and place it into the nitro, the match would go out. He then let the match soak a little, then would light the end of the match. The Niro burnt as it wicked up the match. If the entire lid full was on fire, he knew it had something else added to it. The last lot he brought failed the test he did. But as it was then his only source we settled to still use it. On model engine testing , we often found that Nitro contents less than 10% , often made the same power as fuel with just methanol and oil, but the small amount of nitro made the engines a lot easier to set the needle position. To mix Nitro to petrol , using Meths works very well.
Neil

[Flettner]

I run my F9 on Ethanol (E90) with 10% 98 petrol. Petrol is there to help it light up (hard to start without it) and I think it helps speed the burn as ethanol is slow (er) burning. Took a long time to tune as it is different to methanol in that it has more energy than methanol but is mixed at a lower rate (7 / 8ish to 1). Methonal will make more power but you use a lot more as compared to Ethanol. It's an odd fuel to tune with as the engine tune will change when the engine hits about 70 C, needs more fuel. This is hard to adjust with the carb (impossible!) but with the EFI there is a engine temp graph, temp / TPS, you can put a "ramp" in the fueling at that temp. Also (air cooled engine) you can up the fueling substantially if the engine starts getting real hot. Only issue is the temp sensor is in one of the head studs and takes it's time to redgister, should put it in the head, a new casting perhaps. I have tried nitro, it just breaks stuff and more than 10% and you will be found out!
A foot note, with all this development in the engine department and all this POWER available, almost double most of the other competitors had, I still could not get a trophy:first:. It's hard to beat a well ridden motorcycle with a good rider. My modus operandi has always been "power is king" and "if some is good then more must be better" but that's just crap.:rolleyes:

[husaberg]

I run my F9 on Ethanol (E90) with 10% 98 petrol. Petrol is there to help it light up (hard to start without it) and I think it helps speed the burn as ethanol is slow (er) burning. Took a long time to tune as it is different to methanol in that it has more energy than methanol but is mixed at a lower rate (7 / 8ish to 1). Methonal will make more power but you use a lot more as compared to Ethanol. It's an odd fuel to tune with as the engine tune will change when the engine hits about 70 C, needs more fuel. This is hard to adjust with the carb (impossible!) but with the EFI there is a engine temp graph, temp / TPS, you can put a "ramp" in the fueling at that temp. Also (air cooled engine) you can up the fueling substantially if the engine starts getting real hot. Only issue is the temp sensor is in one of the head studs and takes it's time to redgister, should put it in the head, a new casting perhaps. I have tried nitro, it just breaks stuff and more than 10% and you will be found out!
A foot note, with all this development in the engine department and all this POWER available, almost double most of the other competitors had, I still could not get a trophy:first:. It's hard to beat a well ridden motorcycle with a good rider. My modus operandi has always been "power is king" and "if some is good then more must be better" but that's just crap.:rolleyes:

http://www.turbofast.com.au/racefuel15.html
The petrol component would likely be better replaced with acetone.

[nasone32]

http://www.turbofast.com.au/racefuel15.html
The petrol component would likely be better replaced with acetone.

Yes, but as with other chemicals, acetone is aggressive on some seals, so care is needed

I had to lurk the board to find a Frits' comment about the Ryger exhaust temperature. So, no, physics dictates that the ryger achieves high rpm in another way :facepalm:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130916123#post1130916123

However, while tinkering with engmod a lot of time ago, with short combustion times and a wide rpm sweep, i remember reading the power raising again after the "overrev". sometimes even at some 70% of the max power.
for example you have max power at 14k rpm, then the power falls and then rises back again at 20k, also with a wide bell shape.

I'm just throwing in a bait for Frits. maybe he'll read my rubbish statements and in a raptus of anger will reveal everything :wari:

[husaberg]

Yes, but as with other chemicals, acetone is aggressive on some seals, so care is needed
:

As is the 90% Ethanol he is mixing it with:laugh:

[MotleyCrue]

However, while tinkering with engmod a lot of time ago, with short combustion times and a wide rpm sweep, i remember reading the power raising again after the "overrev". sometimes even at some 70% of the max power.
for example you have max power at 14k rpm, then the power falls and then rises back again at 20k, also with a wide bell shape.

I'm just throwing in a bait for Frits. maybe he'll read my rubbish statements and in a raptus of anger will reveal everything :wari:

Well I dont have Engmod but I posted that very concept many pages back and suggested that the HCCI (if it is HCCI) and some other trickery is used to fill in the rpm gap between the two legit power peaks. Nobody denied the 2 power peaks, and nobody denied filling in the gap between the 2 power peaks. The 2 power peaks (one well past the normal overrev) should exist even for a regular engine with a bit of messing about, but filling in the rpm gap between the peaks to get the engine up to the rpm to make the higher rpm peak might not be too easy so probably why it hasnt been "discovered" for mass consumption. The way to see it would be to buzz some engine to 40-50% more rpm than normal peak HP rpm then load it and see where the higher peak is and how much HP. Have a feeling the stinger might have to be bigger but maybe not.

[nasone32]

Ok to stop this ryger frenzy of myself i'll post something more 2strokey.
This is my billet crank. only treatment is a nitruration.
It's old stuff, i made it 4 years ago, but it's also new stuff, because i had health issues and i could not assembly anything.
now i'm slowly back at work.
i made 2 of them.
one as a backup.

48mm stroke, 100mm conrod. 18mm big end.
it has extreme weight, to reduce fluctuations, on a cvt engine torque fluctuations are taxing on the belt. plus the engine has to stay at steady speed.
almost 2 kilograms.

319348319347

[Grumph]

I'll stick to my relatively safe toulene/xylene/gasoline mix for now.
On a side note, methanol is very difficult to obtain in Norway cause some people made a habit of drinking it. Also anything with "nitro" in the name has gotten really restricted.

Back in the open fuel days in NZ, national motorcycle roadrace titles (4T)were won on 80/20 Meth tolulene mix. Consumption is 20% less than straight meth so rich petrol jets and needles are all that's required.
Then we moved to adding Nitro to that base mix. Mixed well, kept well, easy starting. 25% Nitro saw another couple of roadrace titles.
In karting the 80/20 Meth base mix worked but changing it to 70/20/10 Meth, tolulene, benzole was even better.

i knew a local roadrace sidecar crew who determined by trial and error that their aged Honda 4 could accept 11% nitro before going bang.
When asked why the engine breather terminated on the steering head, they said, if you see a blue flame at the end of the breather, roll off the bike and wait for the bang...The rings weren't that good and left too long between oil changes it had a sump explosion....

[Flettner]

Back in the open fuel days in NZ, national motorcycle roadrace titles (4T)were won on 80/20 Meth tolulene mix. Consumption is 20% less than straight meth so rich petrol jets and needles are all that's required.
Then we moved to adding Nitro to that base mix. Mixed well, kept well, easy starting. 25% Nitro saw another couple of roadrace titles.
In karting the 80/20 Meth base mix worked but changing it to 70/20/10 Meth, tolulene, benzole was even better.

i knew a local roadrace sidecar crew who determined by trial and error that their aged Honda 4 could accept 11% nitro before going bang.
When asked why the engine breather terminated on the steering head, they said, if you see a blue flame at the end of the breather, roll off the bike and wait for the bang...The rings weren't that good and left too long between oil changes it had a sump explosion....

:lol: I guess that's why the rules changed, fourstroke sump explosions can ruin your day and everyone else on the track.

I have a friend what drove a Standard 10 (car), one day a piston broke. The offending piston and rod were taken out (hoseclip around the crankshaft to keep the oil pressure in, for what there was of it) but the valves, pushrods and spark plug were still working in that cylinder. After a time, with fuel being able to get into the sump and mix with the oil, there was heard a loud explosion (main street of Te Puke), sump combustion, turned external.
At least when I had to shut down one piston on my Zepher Six engine I took the pushrods out and removed the plug cap. Zepher Five didn't seem any more gutless:lol:

[TZ350]

This is my billet crank. only treatment is a nitruration.
48mm stroke, 100mm conrod. 18mm big end.
it has extreme weight, to reduce fluctuations, on a cvt engine torque fluctuations are taxing on the belt. plus the engine has to stay at steady speed.
almost 2 kilograms.

319348319347

I love it.... great work.

[speedpro]

Ok to stop this ryger frenzy of myself i'll post something more 2strokey.
This is my billet crank. only treatment is a nitruration.
It's old stuff, i made it 4 years ago, but it's also new stuff, because i had health issues and i could not assembly anything.
now i'm slowly back at work.
i made 2 of them.
one as a backup.

48mm stroke, 100mm conrod. 18mm big end.
it has extreme weight, to reduce fluctuations, on a cvt engine torque fluctuations are taxing on the belt. plus the engine has to stay at steady speed.
almost 2 kilograms.

Adding Mallory metal opposite the big end would seem a better option if you were looking for a weighty crank and needed to balance it, rather than drilling holes and removing material. Nice looking rod and nice work on the crank. I'm old enough now to fully appreciate being completely fit and healthy.

What is it going in? Looks like a scooter crank, obviously. I've got a warmed over scooter myself. Silly good fun at the lights and hitting the motorway.

[peewee]

I recall once i was using methanol with a 22:1 head (on a 70cc engine) and the kill switch did not kill the engine at all.


same thing happened to me 2 yrs ago. engine ran on with no ignition. float bowl was much larger than normal and I had a 65l p/hr pump. maybe the a/f went lean some how. I never figured it out and it never ran on again

at the end of each I day unplugged the line right after the fuel valve and hooked up a small bottle of mixed race gas to flush the system. it would run long enough to get about 8oz or so of gas through the system. never had a problem with standard ktm crank seals holding up fine

the crank bearings are skf rollers with polymer cages and I think they are fine also. havent taken the engine apart but everything spins very smooth so I don't see any cause for concearn. when it blows up ill worry about it

[breezy]

Yes, but as with other chemicals, acetone is aggressive on some seals, so care is needed

I had to lurk the board to find a Frits' comment about the Ryger exhaust temperature. So, no, physics dictates that the ryger achieves high rpm in another way :facepalm:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130916123#post1130916123

However, while tinkering with engmod a lot of time ago, with short combustion times and a wide rpm sweep, i remember reading the power raising again after the "overrev". sometimes even at some 70% of the max power.
for example you have max power at 14k rpm, then the power falls and then rises back again at 20k, also with a wide bell shape.

I'm just throwing in a bait for Frits. maybe he'll read my rubbish statements and in a raptus of anger will reveal everything :wari:

Luc Foekema posted an interesting article on his face book page with regard to ignition requirements, strength of spark at various rpms. perhaps he found a way to link these these two power peaks??:sherlock:

[TZ350]

.... infact we detune our motors ......

Sure, I believe you...... :rolleyes:

[nasone32]

I love it.... great work.
thank you :love:


Adding Mallory metal opposite the big end would seem a better option if you were looking for a weighty crank and needed to balance it, rather than drilling holes and removing material. Nice looking rod and nice work on the crank. I'm old enough now to fully appreciate being completely fit and healthy.

What is it going in? Looks like a scooter crank, obviously. I've got a warmed over scooter myself. Silly good fun at the lights and hitting the motorway.

Thank you!
Yes it's scooter! It is going into this crankcase.
It's a billet crankcase welded on the original one. To cut costs down...
it has a ~460cc volume which gives 1,26:1 compression
2mm around the crank webs.
since the crankcase is custom i could employ some good bearings too.
The billet flange on the side, fixed to the wheel, is an addition which of course wasn't there on the scooter. is made so the crankcase won't tear apart.
with this kind of power the belt pushes about 1 tonne between primary and secondary shaft, which are 33cm apart.
I am 100% sure the single arm engine would break in half.

the cylinder is a 95cc copycat of the aprilia rsa. well the transfer ducts are copied, but the remaining is a bit different.
The exhaust port is a T-port and the exhaust duct, based on Frits' and Wobbly's writings, can be improved.

this configuration crashed 41 hp in engmod.

Also the cvt is completely from billet. I own a patent on the variator, which from this year will be employed by the stage6 brand (a German parts brand)

319360319359

[adegnes]

thank you :love:



Thank you!
Yes it's scooter! It is going into this crankcase.
It's a billet crankcase welded on the original one. To cut costs down...
it has a ~460cc volume which gives 1,26:1 compression
2mm around the crank webs.
since the crankcase is custom i could employ some good bearings too.
The billet flange on the side, fixed to the wheel, is an addition which of course wasn't there on the scooter. is made so the crankcase won't tear apart.
with this kind of power the belt pushes about 1 tonne between primary and secondary shaft, which are 33cm apart.
I am 100% sure the single arm engine would break in half.

the cylinder is a 95cc copycat of the aprilia rsa. well the transfer ducts are copied, but the remaining is a bit different.
The exhaust port is a T-port and the exhaust duct, based on Frits' and Wobbly's writings, can be improved.

this configuration crashed 41 hp in engmod.

Also the cvt is completely from billet. I own a patent on the variator, which from this year will be employed by the stage6 brand (a German parts brand)

319360319359

Awesome!
You don't happen to have a build thread somewhere do you? Would love to know more about the project!

And what's up with that rectangle in the crankcase, secrets?

[nasone32]

Unfortunately I don't have a thread anymore. :no: but you can ask anything you like.
That rectangle is not hiding anything of the engine. There was just a logo of the previous brand i worked for. But i don't want free advertising. even less for bad people.

these are some pictures of the cylinder.

porting is 200° ex, 129° A , 131° B C
not completely sure, but close enough.
the big molds.
the small ones are from two 52mm bore engines (with pass-thru bolts) this is 50mm bore. look at the difference.

My friend Sprocatti casted this cylinder for me. I went to him and we worked together on the cores.
I made a T-port because it is easier to work with, since i have less experience on booster ports and his booster ports cores were very different from the RSA. and i don't plan to use a closed piston pin, so I thought i would not exploit the full potential and bore width of booster ports anyway.

now I understand the other advantages of the boost ports. but hey, it's done.
319361319362319363319364

[Makr]

Beautiful work nasone32

[adegnes]

Beautiful work nasone32

+1
..................

[jasonu]

Sure, I believe you...... :rolleyes:

Self regulating class and all that...

[jonny quest]

Has anyone tried E85 in their 2 stroke?

I tried it in a 250cc 4 stroke single, it was worth almost 2hp. But I didn't spend the time to truly optimize jetting, so it was temperamental, and lost interest

[adegnes]

Has anyone tried E85 in their 2 stroke?

I tried it in a 250cc 4 stroke single, it was worth almost 2hp. But I didn't spend the time to truly optimize jetting, so it was temperamental, and lost interest

I have, same story as you, gained power but was temperamental. Didn't get to play much with it cause the urge for further modification got in my way, it usually does...

[jonny quest]

Was your test on a 2 stroke?

[TZ350]

Has anyone tried E85 in their 2 stroke?

Not E85 but a 50/50 mixture of acetone and methanol. RD barrels grafted onto a T250R Suzuki bottom end worked well, tested the seals by soaking them in a jar of it for a few days. The Suzuki ones were good, the Yamaha ones with the special lips were not.

Bike used to peak at 11,000 on petrol and dropped to 10,000 on the mix. The mix was run rich, the air cooled motor ran cool and there was a much better mid range spread of power for the whole race.

A friend ran E85 in his air cooled MX 2T, went Ok but you have to ensure its run rich when the motor gets hot. (there is a clue there, run E85 rich when really hot, don't tune for best power on a lukewarm motor).

Air cooled 2T dyno run on E85: - https://youtu.be/ifSEql1X4R0

Water cooled 2T dyno run on E85 - https://youtu.be/UEQli7nuak4

Both bike have done quite a few off road hours.

[adegnes]

Was your test on a 2 stroke?

Yep, 50cc
............

.

[AndreasL]

Would like to see and know everything of that design nasone32.
Really great work!

[TZ350]

Unfortunately I don't have a thread anymore. :no: but you can ask anything you like.

Would love to see more posts and pictures as the project progresses.

[nasone32]

The engine is 98% ready to assemble. and it has been for years. I'm back in shape and now i just need some free time.
it just needs the head on the lathe and some minor details (water passage, small milling on the crankcase, making an intake manifold)

here's the cvt
for scooter users i must admit this is porn
319367319368319370

[Tunisti]

Has anyone tried E85 in their 2 stroke?

We have tried and used RE85 somewhat alot in Finland. Our booze moped is 79cm^3 air cooled lazy 2-stroke Suzuki. RE85 gives enormous (not sure if you can say that :killingme) amounts of low end torque, or shall I say toughness. It's not very well shown in the dyno graphs, but in real life the runnability changes dramatically, engine tolerates rpm's much lower than idle when crawling in forests, throttle response is better and it doesn't care if you slam WOT at very low rpm's. The engine runs much cooler too, and tends to be less sensitive to spark fouling. Good functionality required only jetting. After those dyno graphs the ignition advance was turned a bit earlier, leading to better overall curve and max torque/hp.

http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/th_kayrrsus_zpsgt1sdt6h.jpg (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/kayrrsus_zpsgt1sdt6h.jpg.html)

Blue is 98 octane gasoline, with 5% of ethanol in it. Red and greenish are RE85 runs. Red curve is at normal operating temperature and greenish is intentionally overheated pull. Only difference was the change of fuel and jetting.


Our RE85 moped: https://youtu.be/gt6gUc91nWA
Another RE85 moped, con-rod failure: https://youtu.be/x7kXIHxhMfw
And sitkuura's RE85 Race-Suzuki's dyno charts (last message on that page, you can try google translate if you want...): http://www.pv-foorumi.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10472&start=208

We have used 3,5% of Shell Racing M 30 with RE85. Works well, stays mixed even in the middle of winter. Here's also some kind of test raport (4th message on page, unfortunately in Finnish): http://www.pv-foorumi.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9705&start=13

E: We have also made couple of DIY RE85 car conversions. Only required some ECT data manipulation with potentiometers. http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/2015-04-20-1140_zpsjhxjdwrl.jpg

[TZ350]

here's the cvt for scooter users i must admit this is porn
319367319368319370

I am very interested in this as Team ESE have a CVT project in mind.

[TZ350]

319382319383319384

A lot of digital ignition and EFI wiring to package neatly onto the frame. The EFI injectors fire from the back of the cylinder across the transfer ducts.

319380319381

This is my EFI throttle body. The bellmouth and throttle spigot onto the rotary valve cover which has the 24mm equivalent choke or 452mm2 area machined into it.

Some people think this is a bit grey because the current rules only refer to a carburettor, but it does have the word "equivalent" in there.

MNZ rule 24.2 Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged. F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc are restricted to carburation equivalent to a single 24mm carburettor, F5 4 stroke engines over 53cc are restricted to carburetion equivalent to a single 20mm carburettor.

[seattle smitty]

Seems to me you really can't offer a final verdict about any alternate fuel or blend if all you do is tweak the jetting and spark timing and plug heat-range; most of the alternatives mentioned over the last couple of pages would work better if combustion chamber volume were also modified to best suit THAT fuel. Add that alteration and I'll bet you start seeing your fuel in a much more positive light.

One hint if you haven't already discovered this, with nitro blends a lot of times the fuel inlet needle and seat are the first restriction you have to address.

[Flettner]

Seems to me you really can't offer a final verdict about any alternate fuel or blend if all you do is tweak the jetting and spark timing and plug heat-range; most of the alternatives mentioned over the last couple of pages would work better if combustion chamber volume were also modified to best suit THAT fuel.

True that, use it properly or not at all.
When they go back to the original rules and allow 100cc fourstroke "anything goes" like it was originaly, I'm in:wings:
I don't like fourstrokes but supercharged on ethanol / nitro blend does interest me somewhat. Parts are being aquired.
Unfortunatly I can't shake this "if some is good more must be better" mentality.

[TZ350]

We have tried and used RE85 somewhat a lot in Finland. Our booze moped is 79cm^3 air cooled lazy 2-stroke Suzuki. RE85 gives enormous (not sure if you can say that :killingme) amounts of low end torque, or shall I say toughness.

319398

Are those snow/ice tires on your bike. It is not something we see here in NZ but I have seen video clips of ice racing.

[TZ350]

When they go back to the original rules and allow 100cc fourstroke "anything goes" like it was originally, I'm in:wings:
I don't like fourstrokes but supercharged on ethanol / nitro blend does interest me somewhat

That would greatly interest me too.

[sitkuura]

Maybe i should introduce myself. I´m over aged (as my wife says) moped tuner from Finland. So far my best result is 11,75hp@rear wheel on Tunisti's dyno with 74cc aircooled suzuki engine.

Pic of my moped after race in last august.
http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p551/sitkuura/Kisakuvia/th_IMG_20150822_150017474_HDR_zpsecmls1af.jpg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/sitkuura/media/Kisakuvia/IMG_20150822_150017474_HDR_zpsecmls1af.jpg.html)

And some videos...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12ohDziUnvc last fall with e85 fuel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGaQgosY_qs and winter tire testing with 98octane gas


319398

Are those snow/ice tires on your bike. It is not something we see here in NZ but I have seen video clips of ice racing.

That bike 3rd.person bike. I don´t know anything about it, but it has great power... Tires are self studed with car studs (road legal in Finland) and they have nothing to do with real winter racing tires:innocent: I made similar for my moped too.
http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p551/sitkuura/Sykero/th_IMG-20160129-WA0018_zpstxuuvnzx.jpeg (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/sitkuura/media/Sykero/IMG-20160129-WA0018_zpstxuuvnzx.jpeg.html)

[TZ350]

Thanks, looks like fun.

[nasone32]

I am very interested in this as Team ESE have a CVT project in mind.

Then I'd be glad to help you.
Since i received so much from people in this forum, i'd like to explain a key fact in cvt engines, which most don't consider.

A good racing cvt puts a constant load on the engine, this is why it stays at a fixed rpm.
This presents a problem.
the maximum torque point is not a stable point of equilibrium for the cvt.
suppose you have a sudden increase in the load on the transmission. typical example would be when the transmission heats up, or you are on a sloping road.
The load increases, the engine revolutions go down and now it is working on a lower torque point in the torque curve of the engine. the engine will never catch up.

What you want to do is set the transmission to work a bit over the maximum torque, which often means over the maximum power, because a cvt engine can have a narrow power band and this means max torque and max power are near each other.
in this condition, if the load on the transmission increases suddenly, engine rpm will go down, but now you will be on a higher torque point on the curve.
this makes a stable equilibrium point.

this is why you want to develop the engine to have some usable range over the maximum power.

also a cvt usually benefits from power produced with more revolutions and less torque.

[seattle smitty]

Unfortunatly I can't shake this "if some is good more must be better" mentality.

Well, the developer of this rig (which I have shown here a while ago) found that as he started taking the nitro percentage over 20% the engine really woke up; I think they raced it with 40-45%.

http://www.outboardracing.com/images/Image1707.JPG

[TZ350]

Since i received so much from people in this forum, i'd like to explain a key fact in cvt engines, which most don't consider.


Thank you, that is very helpful.

[Tunisti]

Seems to me you really can't offer a final verdict about any alternate fuel or blend if all you do is tweak the jetting and spark timing and plug heat-range; most of the alternatives mentioned over the last couple of pages would work better if combustion chamber volume were also modified to best suit THAT fuel. Add that alteration and I'll bet you start seeing your fuel in a much more positive light.

One hint if you haven't already discovered this, with nitro blends a lot of times the fuel inlet needle and seat are the first restriction you have to address.

That's true that there are several parameters that need to be adjusted for different fuels. Our ugly little Suzuki is just a test bench for all the silly ideas. The combustion chamber of it is ridiculous for any fuel, and so is the pipe and porting too. But hey! It's the kind of machine, witch is perfect for quick, stupid and very experimental mods!

We once tried 50% nitromethane 50% methanol mix, witch also had on top some synthetic oil and acetone as mixing agent for the oil. It idled and started quite well, half throttle was okay but at full throttle the carburator dried up in about one second. It also knocked with high compression head, so we changed it to less compressive model. After that we added some more methanol, until the mix was 40/60. This gave a bit more time to run WOT until the carb dried up. So, we removed the fuel tap, float, fuel inlet needle and needle. We had main jet with 3,1 times more flow than petrol jet. After that it tolerated few seconds of WOT. Engine reved much higher, ran cooler and there was very significant improvement in torque at low rpm:s and low throttle openings. This compared to petrol/ethanol. The engine lasted about 3 litres of that stuff, until piston ring shattered. But it was fun!:lol:

With sitkuura's moped we dynoed different combustion chamber designs with RE85. It seemed that about 10% smaller chamber volume works well with RE85, compared to 98 octane petrol. Ofcourse that test was very coarse, but it gives some directions. If i remember correclty, the ignition advance was best when few degrees earlier compared to petrol.

Btw. This was the appearance of the spark plug, when the little Suzuki was tuned for RE85. The oil is castor based.
http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/th_20150410_170430_zpskovomzar.jpg (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/20150410_170430_zpskovomzar.jpg.html)

Btw, some calculations of required fuel flows:
http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/virtaas.jpg
http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/peeaa0.jpg
http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/peeaa1.jpg



Picture of moped

That's not my bike. But to show the "poor man's winter spikes":

http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/th_P4250116_zpscca99585.jpg (http://s893.photobucket.com/user/Tunisti/media/P4250116_zpscca99585.jpg.html)

http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac137/Tunisti/P3300119_zps7c24116d.jpg

Cheap self drilling sheet metal screws! Traction is awesome, and they seem to be pretty durable too. Stoppie on snowy/icy road isn't problem at all. I would install those to my car too, if they were not illegal to use...

[nasone32]

this is the reed valve
it's a 125cc kart reed valve, it is as wide as the transfer ducts
It's a bit of a strange concept, i hope it will work.

319418319419

[Peiter]

Your engine casing looks good, that must have been a lot of work :)!

Currently the stuffer inside your reed valve has a concave shape, promoting flow to the center and preventing flow over to the sides of the valve.
However, in order to get a larger overall flow, a convex shape should be used such that mixture can leave the reed valve over the sides too.

I think Wobbly and Frits already wrote something about this subject in this thread and hopefully they will fill in my gaps / elaborate further on it :).

[nasone32]

Thank you, i'll take a look using the search function!

[adegnes]

this is the reed valve
it's a 125cc kart reed valve, it is as wide as the transfer ducts
It's a bit of a strange concept, i hope it will work.

319418319419

The same configuration was widely used in the old 50cc french gr3 single variated racing class.
Not much info around that I can find, at least not in englishl(and you know the French...:laugh:)

http://auto.img.v4.skyrock.net/7869/89377869/pics/3199396849_2_2_xTcN467E.jpg

[adegnes]

Alot of pictures here

http://galerie.competition50cc.info/index.php?cat=12

These guy's took it to the extreme.

http://galerie.competition50cc.info/albums/userpics/10001/carterbidalotg3009uz7.jpg

http://galerie.competition50cc.info/albums/userpics/10125/IMG_9449.JPG

http://galerie.competition50cc.info/albums/userpics/10125/IMG_9458.JPG

[ief]

I don't get that reed, other then the before mentioned stuffer shape, perhaps I missed a post but where is the top of the cage (reeds won't close for sure this way, obviously :)) Was it a 8 valve converted to 4? I can imagine those big flaps giving more problems then they solve. But only one way to find out ofcoarse...

Nice work on the cases!

[Muciek]

D Racing informe ses clients et contacts que les moteurs RYGER ne sont pas commercialisable par D Racing en l absence de disponibilité des moteurs < homologues > en l absence de toute fiabilité et performance vérifie sans parler d un niveau sonore supérieur à la norme FFSA et CIK au régime moteur annoncé par RYGER

Google translator

D Racing informs its clients and contacts that Ryger engines are not marketable D Racing in the unavailability of engines <counterparts> in the absence of reliability and performance checks not to mention a sound level greater than the FFSA standard and CIK engine speed announced by ryger


https://www.facebook.com/Dracing.fr/?fref=photo

That does not sound good...</counterparts>

[nasone32]

The tip of the reed block is removed intentionally, the reeds don't need to close completely.
As Frits teaches, the reeds could be removed altogether!
there is 1 mm clearance between the reeds tip.
We do this often in scooter engines and gives some +0.6 hp with 28mm carbs.
Although this gain is mostly because the reed valve is small compared to the carb.
this reed block was born with 4 reeds
my idea was to use short reeds, so they can be very thin, and since the flow area is reduced, the reed cage is very wide to compensate.
the vibrational frequency of a reed goes with lenght squared, so with a small reduction in lenght the reed can be much thinner, I think i won't have problems with 0,25mm reeds @ 14.5k rpm


D Racing informe ses clients et contacts que les moteurs RYGER ne sont pas commercialisable par D Racing en l absence de disponibilité des moteurs < homologues > en l absence de toute fiabilité et performance vérifie sans parler d un niveau sonore supérieur à la norme FFSA et CIK au régime moteur annoncé par RYGER

Google translator

D Racing informs its clients and contacts that Ryger engines are not marketable D Racing in the unavailability of engines <counterparts> in the absence of reliability and performance checks not to mention a sound level greater than the FFSA standard and CIK engine speed announced by ryger


https://www.facebook.com/Dracing.fr/?fref=photo

That does not sound good...</counterparts>

DAMN

[bjorn.clauw.1]

D Racing informe ses clients et contacts que les moteurs RYGER ne sont pas commercialisable par D Racing en l absence de disponibilité des moteurs < homologues > en l absence de toute fiabilité et performance vérifie sans parler d un niveau sonore supérieur à la norme FFSA et CIK au régime moteur annoncé par RYGER

Google translator

D Racing informs its clients and contacts that Ryger engines are not marketable D Racing in the unavailability of engines <counterparts> in the absence of reliability and performance checks not to mention a sound level greater than the FFSA standard and CIK engine speed announced by ryger


https://www.facebook.com/Dracing.fr/?fref=photo

That does not sound good...</counterparts>

Thats pretty loosely translated by google, more correct would be:
D Racing informs its clients that we cannot offer Ryger engines for sale due to a shortage of available homologated engines and due to a lack of proof regarding longivity and performance. Not to mention an exhaust volume greater than the FFSA and CIK standards unlike what ryger mentioned earlier.

(Bad news rephrased remains bad news I guess)
This is by far the weirdest product launch I have ever seen. (Surely the longivity and performance issues had to be long solved by now)

[wobbly]

So Nasone - the reed block tip being removed brings up three questions for me.
How does this affect the low speed running ( jetting ) and secondly, as I deal alot with restricted class engines, where reed block mods are forbidden
im now thinking that shortening the reed petal,leaving a 1mm gap at the end may work as well.
What about reed fretting, with no support at its tip across most off its width - any issues with this.

And about the stuffer shape - the side flow from the reeds ( helped by the convex stuffer shape ) really only works well if the reed box geometry is designed to use it properly.
Many newer MX engines have been going narrower and narrower vertically at the exit into the case volume, and then wider horizontally,with a taper then radius out
into the volume directly under the transfer duct entry area.

[MotleyCrue]

Thats pretty loosely translated by google, more correct would be:
D Racing informs its clients that we cannot offer Ryger engines for sale due to a shortage of available homologated engines and due to a lack of proof regarding longivity and performance. Not to mention an exhaust volume greater than the FFSA and CIK standards unlike what ryger mentioned earlier.

(Bad news rephrased remains bad news I guess)
This is by far the weirdest product launch I have ever seen. (Surely the longivity and performance issues had to be long solved by now)

The way things have been going this isnt too surprising. I have seen projects go like this, first there are wondrous things observed but there isnt enough money to develop them and iron out the bumps, then after some negotiating someone comes up with some money and a bunch of optimistic deadlines for accomplishment, but R&D isnt like that it always takes 5-10 times as long as you think, not all deadlines can be met competently and in the end a half finished project goes out the door and everyone holds there noses and crosses their fingers.

Lets hope the problem is it can be resolved quickly but my gut says they thought they had control of the HCCI process but they dont, and neither does anyone else after 30+ years of trying.

The real bummer is they never even put out 1 single dyno curve and/or video showing what the engine could do under best case conditions. Even if the manufactured version cant do it, yet, or ever, at least showing the best case dyno curve would go a ways to securing everyone's support for the cause.

[Peter1962]

Thats pretty loosely translated by google, more correct would be:
D Racing informs its clients that we cannot offer Ryger engines for sale due to a shortage of available homologated engines and due to a lack of proof regarding longivity and performance. Not to mention an exhaust volume greater than the FFSA and CIK standards unlike what ryger mentioned earlier.

(Bad news rephrased remains bad news I guess)
This is by far the weirdest product launch I have ever seen. (Surely the longivity and performance issues had to be long solved by now)

The correct translation of the french text is "sound level" of the exhaust at the given rpm. Not the exhaust volume.


I have to say that i do not understand this...
So first the Fia CIK gives a homologation of the engine, and now there is a statement that the engine is not homologated ?
At the official CIK website, the ryger is still mentioned as being homologated.
http://www.cikfia.com/fileadmin/content/REGULATIONS/Homologations/Homologated%20Equipment/2016/Homol-materiel-2016_Web.pdf

[adegnes]

If the Ryger really is as great as we've been told, I would imagine there's a lot of resistance amongst people/corporations with money into other more conventional engines.
I love conspiracies!
It is wierd though, no dyno sheets or video's, or anything really to back their claims.

[lucf]

Only a few weeks and everything will be explained, so be patient for a little while.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=180117222356674&set=pcb.180120359023027&type=3&theater

[nasone32]

So Nasone - the reed block tip being removed brings up three questions for me.
How does this affect the low speed running ( jetting ) and secondly, as I deal alot with restricted class engines, where reed block mods are forbidden
im now thinking that shortening the reed petal,leaving a 1mm gap at the end may work as well.
What about reed fretting, with no support at its tip across most off its width - any issues with this.

And about the stuffer shape - the side flow from the reeds ( helped by the convex stuffer shape ) really only works well if the reed box geometry is designed to use it properly.
Many newer MX engines have been going narrower and narrower vertically at the exit into the case volume, and then wider horizontally,with a taper then radius out
into the volume directly under the transfer duct entry area.
Wobbly,
about the jetting, doesn't seem to give problems, the engine idles just fine, but we use cvt engines with automatic clutch engaging at 7000 rpm, So unfortunately I don't know how is driveability under that range. And also, the reeds *will* touch under crankcase pressure. But it does not make a perfect seal for sure.
I just make sure the tip of the reeds are shaped to touch each other on a small surface, rather than on an edge.
Some sanding paper does the job.
Unfortunately I lost all my imageshack images :crybaby: so i made a drawing.

319454

As I see it, the divider does good for the pressure on the reeds, but also is taxing for the flow. If you look from the intake side, what you see on a conventional reed cage is a big bridge just in the middle of the flow. In this case you see a nice, straight channel.

So I don't know what simply shortening the reeds will do...

Reeds mainteinance is not reduced. I even tried a billet aluminium reed cage once, with this design, in no time you see a "shadow" on the reed where it touches the cage, but at 50 liters they were still working. then I removed it for other reasons.

[wobbly]

Reliability issues aside,if the fact is true that the pipe has been manufactured incorrectly and is not legal to the CIK spec its an unforgivable blunder.
The noise issue may then also stem from non CIK approved muffler/airbox, as theses items are well proven and are very quiet.
Being a normal watercooled cylinder no extra noise can be coming from this, so one can only assume that there is another "unusual "
event happening in the pipe that creates a huge spike of wave energy, causing excess noise from the pipe body itself, or from the muffler exit.
The mufflers are just big versions of normal absorption chambers, but if the noise frequency being emitted from the Exhaust port is substantially different
then the nothing special muffler must not be able to eliminate this "new " frequency.
Lastly, I come back to the fact that Frits is and has always been convinced of the "efficacy " of the Ryger concept,and just maybe the actual execution of the physical
parts is beyond his influence.
My respect for Frits is immense, and in no way can I believe that he has any control over what is occurring now, with regard to performance or reliability - it simply just doesnt
fit with his personality/intellect as we perceive him in our online environment .
Once again, as we have seen so many times before, we get a link posted ( by Luc ) and suddenly its taken down ( or deleted altogether ) - so no one is any the wiser as to the real situation.
The people ( person ) in charge of this complete shambles should be shot, more especially if ,as Frits obviously firmly believes, the system is a viable step forward in 2T technology.

[Flettner]

If the Ryger really is as great as we've been told, I would imagine there's a lot of resistance amongst people/corporations with money into other more conventional engines.
I love conspiracies!
It is wierd though, no dyno sheets or video's, or anything really to back their claims.

No, they didn't need any of this as they had a Frits instead. He has made this whole Ryger thing credible, they have relied on him heavily.

Luc, shortly, how many times have you said this, shortly like what, compared to the life of the universe? This shortly is becoming a bit of a joke. I agree, this Tech release has not been handled a hell of a well, it's the sort of shambles I would organise:scratch:

Sorry, probably just a bit frustrated like everyone else here.

[MotleyCrue]

How about this. Instead of waiting around for the Ryger engine other shoe, or any shoe, to drop, how about a group brainstorm on how to build a 70 HP 125, or even a 60 HP 125, using whatever we know or think we know about 2 strokes, forget kart rules, fuel economy, emissions, spec exhausts, HCCI, Rygers, and oddball physical configurations that might not even survive. Just no external turbo/supercharging.

If on paper we had an Aprilia engine to start and could weld and port to our delight (since its on paper :yes:) how could we move that much more air and trap it ? I know its a tall order but I don't think Jan and Frits working on the real engine a decade or so ago were quite as unrestricted (as the paper version).

Any takers to start?

[adegnes]

No, they didn't need any of this as they had a Frits instead. He has made this whole Ryger thing credible, they have relied on him heavily.


True!


How about this. Instead of waiting around for the Ryger engine other shoe, or any shoe, to drop, how about a group brainstorm on how to build a 70 HP 125, or even a 60 HP 125, using whatever we know or think we know about 2 strokes, forget kart rules, fuel economy, emissions, spec exhausts, HCCI, Rygers, and oddball physical configurations that might not even survive. Just no external turbo/supercharging.

If on paper we had an Aprilia engine to start and could weld and port to our delight (since its on paper :yes:) how could we move that much more air and trap it ? I know its a tall order but I don't think Jan and Frits working on the real engine a decade or so ago were quite as unrestricted (as the paper version).

Any takers to start?

Mr. Flettner has been on it since day one!
In the time others have just started thinking about a project, he usually has at least a couple of working prototypes up and running for each of the half a dozen engines he's developing. The man is fast, proper fast!

[breezy]

Only a few weeks and everything will be explained, so be patient for a little while.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=180117222356674&set=pcb.180120359023027&type=3&theater

Luc, i should imagine that the opposition to this environmentally friendly engine,from other manufactures , is immense. i could see lots of misinformed comments banded about to discredit the Ryger. But as we all know the" cream always rises to the top".:niceone:

[MotleyCrue]

Mr. Flettner has been on it since day one!
In the time others have just started thinking about a project, he usually has at least a couple of working prototypes up and running for each of the half a dozen engines he's developing. The man is fast, proper fast!

Ya I have read about various things Flettner is up to and kudos to him. I was just wanting to start an "Aprilia on steroids" discussion, while we wait some more, again.

[wobbly]

Well Motley it depends upon what you are actually trying to do, and for what purpose..
We know that the Aprilia had Jan the Maestro working on it, directing over 100 minions to CAD/CNC,grind, airflow and dyno test the thing to death.
Thus I believe we can forget the transfers, forget the Ex porting,the ignition, the carb and the RV.
The pipe has a couple of small areas that can be slightly improved upon ( 2 stage header etc ).
One restriction was that someone decided early on not to move the rear cylinder studs, and that compromised the B port entry area.
This may be an avenue to pursue, as it has been established well before, that turning ducted flow in 2 dimensions simultaneously is not good for the exit
Cd or directional control.

I have proven ( or should I say Neels has ) that there is a big gain to be had in re configuring the Ex duct length and exit area, along with the header change needed
to get the Lt back to stock - but I believe that is really the last area of the engine that could be seriously reconfigured and know for sure it will work.
But as I have said before, I am really pissed off there is nothing to be excited about performance wise in the Ryger bottom end, so that wont be giving us a huge reliable gain
in power capability due to raising the rpm ceiling.

But that power is already limited by the Blowdown capability - and as we still havnt seen the updated patent, or any proof whatsoever that the Ryger porting we have been shown online
to date is in any way superior to what is currently accepted as SOTA, what do you propose we look at.
HCCI at full throttle still hasnt been shown to work in any lab environment, to give us any usable numbers we know will work in a sim, so that is off the table as well.
Our member here that has the ugliest knees known to man, and a CNC in his bedroom is working on FOS, and we know 24/7 has been tested and works,but is that really better than a fully
developed RV ( maybe with variable timing to help things along ).

With all these technical limitations, and although words are cheap,making near 60 Hp in the Aprilia is possible with my proposed Ex duct change,but what else can we say for sure is a viable
advance in that engine.

[TZ350]

I was just wanting to start an "Aprilia on steroids" discussion, while we wait.

This is a make - show and tell thread, just like show and tell at school. So instead of trying to generate endless talking, why not make something while you wait then tell us about it or start an Aprilia on Steroids discussion thread of your own.

[MotleyCrue]

This is a make - show and tell thread, just like show and tell at school. So instead of trying to generate endless talking, why not make something while you wait then tell us about it or start an Aprilia on Steroids discussion thread of your own.

Seems to me this is a near 1500 page thread on everything from soup to nuts, and most of it is talking, but hey it's your thread.

[TZ350]

Seems to me this is a near 1500 page thread on everything from soup to nuts, and most of it is talking, but hey it's your thread.

Its all good. Probably sounded harsher than I meant it to be, I very much like show and tell from people about their own projects.

[2T Institute]

Who has or can make STL files of the Aprilia transfer and exhaust ducts. Message me please

[ken seeber]

Who has or can make STL files of the Aprilia transfer and exhaust ducts. Message me please

Lozza, "Message me", nah message everyone I say. :yes:

Here is what we think is a scan of the RSA/W passages, probably done from a sand core assembly, plus a pic of a CAD model. Someone could have scanned this to create an STL model.

319457319458

However, whilst an STL file would be good, what would even be better would be a full Solidworks file, possibly something like this. Then one could play with this and adjust to suit an application or incorporate improvements, say to the exhaust passage such as Wob suggests.

319456

Even one of the coolant passages would be good as well.

[peewee]

Seems to me this is a near 1500 page thread on everything from soup to nuts, and most of it is talking, but hey it's your thread.


seems your the only one talking. wobbly, tz350, me and a lot of other folks been working on all kinds of projects. plenty of photos around in case your memory needs refreshed

[F5 Dave]

Chill guys, we don't want to catch Ryger fever.

[Lightbulb]

In reality Mr Hintz is the Da Vinci of our time. Not only does he have the ability to come up with ideas, assemble a group of ideas, then reapplies it to a 2 stroke engine, then he makes it. Some have had their short comings, but by and large Neil has delivered and shown that it is all possible, on a very limited budget and gets results. I think we should be crowd funding Neil as a group. It will be well worth it, even just for the ideas he shares on this forum. If most of us had 1/2 of Neil's enthusiasm for what he is doing , absolutely great things could be achieved.
I would really like to publicly thank Neil for his many contributions and insights to what he is doing, proposes to be doing, and the numerous videos and links he has shared with us all and free of charge I might add. Many people have paid substantially to learn less than what Neil has shared.
Neil Lickfold another engine enthusiast.