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ken seeber
7th September 2016, 13:01
For the sliding cylinder engine (bit of a story in the Foundry section), we have to make up an exhaust. Three in fact. Where does one start? I guess EngMod or some other packages could help, but for a simple starter, Frits has an empirical design method.
For such a “blank sheet of canvas” such as the slider, this seems a really good way to start. Even if it satisfies the 80:20 rule, I’ll be happy. Even if it shuts the noise level down, I’ll be happier.
So, here’s the latest version. Bit of 2D layout work, create .dxf files, off to the laser cutter, then some rolling and probably shitty TIG welding.

324288

crbbt
7th September 2016, 18:07
when you're supplying two exhausts with one cylinder. do you use half capacity in the formula?

manolis
7th September 2016, 19:21
Hello Flettner.

You write:
“you will pay that one person on this forum that will help you make your millions with their advice? This is a "free for all" forum not an ideas mine.”


What is wrong when a guy like Harry Ryger or like Basil van Rooyen (both are independent inventors) tries to protect his intellectual property?

How could (without having a patent) an independent inventor say to Honda, Yamaha, GM, VW etc “do not use this idea / solution / invention in your engines because it is mine”.

What is your problem when Harry Ryger presents (by his “partners”) the advantages of his invention in a “free for all” forum like this (and in many others, worldwide).
Let me help you: there is a fundamental problem because Harry Ryger presents the advantages of his design keeping secret his design! He could even file for a patent for such a great idea (i.e. “how to present the advantages of something, keeping this something secret”) . . .

Did you have the same objections when the engine of Harry Ryger were presented(?) in this “free for all” forum? (not the engine, the huge improvements his engine will bring).




Seriously now,
for those thinking to protect their ideas (intellectual property) but do not know how and how much it costs in money and time.

I wrote in my previous post about the cost of patenting a new idea / invention in the USA and in the United Kingdom patent Offices.

Besides the cost, there is another important parameter, the time required.

So let me describe a typical patenting.


Suppose John Smith has thought about a new mechanism that improves the internal combustion engines.

He searches in the Internet (including the patent offices libraries with the millions of published applications and granted patents) to find out if his idea / invention is really new and how much better it appears than the prior art.

If the chances are good, he decides to proceed with the patenting.

Now John Smith, who lives in Europe, has to write down his invention and to draw it.

He makes two PDF files, one with the Description, the Claims (the most important part of the patent application) and the Abstract, and one with the drawings.

A good tactic is to rewrite the description after finishing with the claims, so that all claims to be well supported by the description and the drawings. Because the core of a patent is its claims.

Patenting is quite different than giving blueprints and details.
It is about providing the general characteristics that distinguish an idea / invention from the existing ones.
So, for instance, it is completely meaningless to put dimensions in the drawings (unless they are essential).

The best guide for writing a patent is to download some recent patents in the same field from some patent offices.


SO FAR THE IDEA MUST BE SECRET.
Completely secret.
Otherwise a valid patent cannot be granted.


After finishing with the two PDF files, John Smith files his patent on-line to, say, the USA patent Office.
It takes no more than 15 minutes.
For a medium size patent with less than 3 independent claims and less than 20 claims in total, the filing cost is US730$ (including the Search and Examination fees).
John Smith pays with his credit / debit card and he receives an electronic receipt that a patent application under the specific title was filed to the US-PTO, indicating the size and name of the PDF files filed and the date and time of the filing.
All these on-line. Electronically. No letters. No paper. No printings.

A few days later John receives a letter from the US-PTO. It is a written receipt and, if there are any formal problems the applicant is requested to correct them.

The same happen in the case the patent was filed on-line in the UK-IPO instead of the US-PTO. Only the cost changes, which is 230 pounds.


If everything is OK, the invention” gets into the “patent pending” condition. It is not really protected (John Smith cannot yet prevent someone from making and selling it), however the inventor can freely present it, talk about it, look for investors etc.

For the next months and years (3+ years is the average time between the initial filing and the final granting of a patent) the Examiner “charged” with the patent application of John Smith, communicates with John Smith and asks for corrections etc.
The most important communication is the Search and Examination report wherein the Examiner gives the most relative documents found (patents, applications for patents, articles, publications, books etc) and also the reasons, if any, making the invention not good for granting a patent.
John Smith responds in every letter, into the required time limits, with the required corrections and objections.


About 18 months after the initial filing, the patent application is published.
Any individual worldwide has access to the published application.
And every other patent office, worldwide, has access to the patent application.
Even if the inventor asks for not publishing his patent application for the public, even then the rest patent offices will have access to his patent application at the end of the 18 months period.

And this is important

Now you can understand why, until 18 months after the initial filing, it is not possible a strong patent to be granted to John Smith.

Why?

Because a guy in the other end of the world (say in New Zeland) filed the same, or a very similar, invention just one day (or just one second) earlier than John Smith.

So, John Smith will liv in doubt at least for the next two years.


Till now it was not required neither a patent attorney nor translations (provided the filing is in English). I.e. it is supposed that John Smith is capable to respond to the requirements of the patent office without external help by experts / professionals.


Suppose everything goes OK and a patent is to be granted to John Smith for his invention by the UK-IPO. A letter is sent to John giving the patent number and the date of publication of the patent.
Only four years after the initial filing (not granting, filing) of his application John Smith has to pay again: it is the maintenance fee to the UK-IPO (70 pounds for the fifth year).
In order to keep his patent in force, John Smith has to pay each year the respective maintenance cost (which increases as the years pass).

Suppose everything is OK and a patent is granted by the US-PTO, too. In this case John smith has to pay US480$ as Issue Fee before the granting. Only 3.5 years after the granting (not the filing, the granting) of the US patent John has to pay again, this time the first maintenance fee which is US800$. Another 3.5 years later he has to pay another maintenance fee, this time US1,200$ to keep his patent “in force” for the next 3.5 years.


The initial filing is quite important not only because it allows the inventor to show / to unveil his invention, but also because it sets a period of time of 12 months during which John Smith can file a patent application for the same invention to any other country (or patent office) using as PRIORITY DATE the date of his first filing. Even if John files for a patent in Australia 11 months after the initial filing in the US-PTO, the “actual” date is the initial filing day (provided John claims the PRIORITY of his original application in the USA).

If John Smith has “big expectations” from his invention, he can, before the end of the 12 months period mentioned above, file for the same invention a PCT (WIPO) application (cost: some US2,500$) which gives him a 30 months grace period (always measured from the initial filing date) during which he can file for a national patent in any other patent office. He takes a Search and Examination report and buys time (because the filing in non-English speaking countries (like China, Japan, North Korea etc) needs both: translation of the patent and a patent attorney which means a lot of cost).



In the previous I presented the basics of my experience in patenting so that the young engineers / mechanics of this forum have not to learn by their own mistakes (i.e. the hard way).

A “free forum” like this is the ideal way to share such knowledge.


And if anybody wants more details, he can ask me in this thread or he can e-mail me (contact details at www.pattakon.com ) , keeping always in mind that an idea / invention has to be kept completely secret at least until the filing of an application for a patent.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

Flettner
7th September 2016, 20:21
I've done patents before Manolis, I know how it works.

Bert
7th September 2016, 20:36
Once again I find myself confused with the intent of others...
There is a place and a time, but most of this page (by volume) doesn't fit with the purpose of this thread (maybe another thread might be more suitable)... But at least I know more about Patents without leaving my fav bucket thread.

So, Rob what's happening in the ESE workshop?

Have you run up the new 110cc???

WilDun
8th September 2016, 09:52
A “free forum” like this is the ideal way to share such knowledge.
Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

That in some cases could be true, but the real issue is that you are showing disrespect for people who are enjoying their thread and are happy sifting through stuff, trying it out and not looking for huge gains.

For one reason or another they enjoy doing what they are doing and discussing the results, they are happy doing it - can you understand that?
I feel that you can't, so that (in forum terms) makes you a "troll".

I tried to point it out to you earlier, but you insist that you know best and can do what you like and don't seem to understand (or care ) what other people might like. - What are you hoping to achieve by that attitude?
Do you ever do anything tangible, like actually seeing these ideas work through your own efforts in a workshop?

That's what they like to do here in NZ, not to mention Australia, and all the other countries also often represented in the forum, happily helping and advising each other. So please let it get back to that.

Do some people in Greece (or wherever you live) still do that ?. - 2500 years ago they could! :msn-wink:

wobbly
8th September 2016, 11:51
One problem we are facing here is that " we " spent a huge amount of time discussing at length what we thought was the next big advancement
in 2T technology.
This was shrouded in secrecy and mystery, and of course we all wanted it to be better than sliced bread.
As it turned out the whole Ryger affair simply turned out to be a complete waste of everyone's efforts.

I have pointed out before that many people on this forum have a real need to be helped along the way to understanding what makes the current
2T state of the art work properly,and I am more than happy to give out my experiences in this cause.
Buggering about with " the next big thing " is not what this particular forum is about - please take it somewhere else,quickly.

WilDun
8th September 2016, 12:23
Buggering about with " the next big thing " is not what this particular forum is about - please take it somewhere else,quickly.

Well said Wobbly, especially as there are other threads where this can be discussed - even on this forum. Time for me to bow out and let you guys get on with it! it's been very good up till now, keep it up.

2005bully
8th September 2016, 16:05
Well said Wobbly, especially as there are other threads where this can be discussed - even on this forum. Time for me to bow out and let you guys get on with it! it's been very good up till now, keep it up.

Wobbly and WilDun. Even though I am only an occasional forum participant, like many I view this forum daily. Over time I have come to understand this forums culture. A culture that is based upon camaraderie, with a hierarchy not tied to popularity or finances, but instead one positioned by integrity, and mutual respect. Thanks to all that contribute to this end. Kermit Buller

mr bucketracer
8th September 2016, 17:01
Well said Wobbly, especially as there are other threads where this can be discussed - even on this forum. Time for me to bow out and let you guys get on with it! it's been very good up till now, keep it up.cool , more bucket engine talk . good stuff:drinknsin

ken seeber
8th September 2016, 18:04
All good stuff really, every now and then one needs to stand back and look at the big picture. For me ESE is pretty clear, getting the best out of current design 2 stroke stuff, good advice with a few experiences in there as well. TZ’s progress is classic ESE. For that reason, I have kept the slider stuff under Foundry, which is sort of fair enough in that it had its build origins starting there, despite the germ of an idea originating in ESE.

However, should I continue there? What if another “Ryger” comes up? What if Fletto invents the best simple DI system anyone could ever dream up, where should he post it? Maybe these should go into Oddball, but it seems to me that this is more historical.

Maybe we need another thread, eg “Blue sky 2 strokes” or something like that and things like sliders, Ryger V2, Fletto’s sleeve valve, Manolis’s engine, etc could go into there. However, is this fair to Fletto who has progressed his engine all thru Foundry? Means another one to look at each day though. Time, time time.

jasonu
8th September 2016, 18:11
A culture that is based upon camaraderie, with a hierarchy not tied to popularity or finances, but instead one positioned by integrity, and mutual respect. Thanks to all that contribute to this end. Kermit Buller

That is more or less what Buckets is all about.

F5 Dave
8th September 2016, 18:58
I'm sure we can coexist.

Thursday Marlborough Sauvignon Blanc. We really are blessed to buy this stuff for $11 at the supermarket, although this came from the the bottle store for more but any price this stuff is top notch. Even after some decent beer.

F5 Dave
8th September 2016, 19:04
Well actually I haven'tadded a music video for quite some pages. So here it is.

I didn't like this song first several times I heard it . sounded too nickleback, but then I saw the video and changed my mind.




https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tjk6N7at42o

Flettner
8th September 2016, 19:08
All good stuff really, every now and then one needs to stand back and look at the big picture. For me ESE is pretty clear, getting the best out of current design 2 stroke stuff, good advice with a few experiences in there as well. TZ’s progress is classic ESE. For that reason, I have kept the slider stuff under Foundry, which is sort of fair enough in that it had its build origins starting there, despite the germ of an idea originating in ESE.

However, should I continue there? What if another “Ryger” comes up? What if Fletto invents the best simple DI system anyone could ever dream up, where should he post it? Maybe these should go into Oddball, but it seems to me that this is more historical.

Maybe we need another thread, eg “Blue sky 2 strokes” or something like that and things like sliders, Ryger V2, Fletto’s sleeve valve, Manolis’s engine, etc could go into there. However, is this fair to Fletto who has progressed his engine all thru Foundry? Means another one to look at each day though. Time, time time.

Ok, I may have been a bit short with Manolis, I guess I was just a bit grumpy in that he could present all these nice working CAD pictures and all I've got to show is a few manky bits of metal:weep:
I'm sorry Manolis you can come back now.:rolleyes:
Just don't type such looooong stories please.

manolis
8th September 2016, 19:18
Hello WilDun.

You write:
“Do you ever do anything tangible, like actually seeing these ideas work through your own efforts in a workshop?”


If you open the www.pattakon.com web site, you will see how wrong you are.


For instance,
at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonRoller.htm you can find more details about the VVA-roller project of pattakon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zzW8YkReLU


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zzW8YkReLU

In the above youtube video it is a modified to PatRoller Honda Civic VTEC 1600cc (B16A2 engine) accelerating on a public road. The camera is secured on the “driving wheel column”.

The control shafts are directly connected to the gas pedal by the gas cable. The deeper the gas pedal is pressed, the more the control shafts rotate increasing the valve stroke. When the gas pedal is released the normal valve springs restore the control shafts to their "idling" position.

Depending on the control shafts angular position the valve lift profile varies continuously from zero (for valve deactivation if desirable), to tiny (for idling), to mild, to medium, to racing (top curve), all in the same engine, all instantly available:

http://www.pattakon.com/vvar/OnBoard/Vtec_files/ValveLifts.gif

The Low rpm (green) Valve Lift profile is different for the two intake valves of the same cylinder of the original VTEC engine (similarly for the two exhaust valves of the cylinder).
The blue curves are only few - of the infinite available - valve lift profiles the "pattakon VVA roller version" provides.

The quick moving parts are lightweight: the original Honda rocker arm assembly weighs 0.26 Kp while the complete rocker arm of the Pattakon VVA (the two rollers included) is less than 0.15 Kp.

Even with the toughest valve springs, the engine at normal conditions (i.e. low to medium revs) "feels" (as regards friction, wear etc) by far softer springs.

The conventional throttle valve is not necessary any longer: the intake valves make the "throttling" (ideal for efficient and cheap ITB).

http://www.pattakon.com/vvar/OnBoard/Vtec_files/ITB3.jpg


Compare the two only modes (with an inevitable “gap” / “hole of torque” between them) of the Honda VTEC with the infinite modes of the modified to PatRoller pattakon Honda Civic: fewer and simpler parts, direct mechanical (instead of hydraulic) control, rolling friction instead of sliding friction, way higher valve lift and valve duration when a lot of power is required, way lower valve lift and valve duration when the car runs in city traffic (no more than 2.5mm valve lift is required in urban cycle) or idles.

The feeling at low speeds is like driving a torquie truck while at high speeds is like a motorcycle, without holes and gaps in the torque curve.

You can find the presentation of the system and the required modification in the injection and ignition tables and on the circuitry at http://www.pattakon.com/DVA_files/pattakonVVAs.pdf


There are many other “tangible” projects of pattakon.
However, it is wrong to underestimate the theory for the sake of the realization / of the handling.


I came in this forum after the suggestion (by e-mails) of a couple of guys who insisted that this forum was the ideal place for asking thoughts / opinions / objections about 2-stroke projects (like the PatTwo, the PatATi, the PatPortLess, the PatMar, the OPRE, the PatOP, the Tiling valve, etc of pattakon).

It seems they were wrong and that I was wrong to follow their advice and press you, the members of this forum, for strictly technical responses.
The responses were disappointing: anything else than technical.


In any case thank you for your time.
Manolis Pattakos

TZ350
8th September 2016, 19:51
Hello WilDun.

You write:

“Do you ever do anything tangible, like actually seeing these ideas work through your own efforts in a workshop?”


If you open the www.pattakon.com (http://www.pattakon.com) web site, you will see how wrong you are.

Manolis Pattakos

Hi Manolis, true there are a lot of interesting ideas on www.pattakon.com (http://www.pattakon.com/) , as well as the diagrams you have re posted here I see there are a few working and prototype prof of concept examples on the site too, you have not actually said, but are the projects shown on that site your own work?

WilDun
8th September 2016, 21:14
I came in this forum after the suggestion (by e-mails) of a couple of guys who insisted that this forum was the ideal place for asking thoughts / opinions / objections about 2-stroke projects (like the PatTwo, the PatATi, the PatPortLess, the PatMar, the OPRE, the PatOP, the Tiling valve, etc of pattakon).
It seems they were wrong and that I was wrong to follow their advice and press you, the members of this forum, for strictly technical responses.
The responses were disappointing: anything else than technical.
In any case thank you for your time.
Manolis Pattakos

Manolis,
I already have seen your site and I said at the beginning of this little spat, that I liked and understood most of what your designs are about (actually quite impressed with some and I have already said that somewhere).

The only gripe that I (had) was that you came on a bit strong, refusing to go along with the established but unwritten protocol and with very long posts and large "in your face" animations (all repeated in the answers) as well.
All this in a well established thread on Bucket Racers where everyone was feeling comfortable with what they were doing and you appeared to insult them by implying that what they were doing was already tried and discarded old school stuff and of no consequence. It does appear that a lot of guys are interested in your designs and I agree with them - just not your approach, which although probably unintentional may have appeared a little arrogant to some.
There was a similar little problem here a few months ago and I thought you would have seen all that then.

That's really all I want to say except that I am sorry for any misunderstanding - but also hope you will be able see that you may have been sometimes wrong with your approach .

TZ350
8th September 2016, 22:00
324356

This thread for a long time has been like regularly dinning at a communal table. Different conversations, different talents, but people with a common interest in two strokes. People who have become friends through show and tell, by openly sharing their ideas while taking an interest in each others achievements.

Manolis, like any group however friendly and welcoming, for a stranger looking to join, there is a successful social etiquette, being loud and trying to set the agenda before being accepted is probably not it.

SwePatrick
8th September 2016, 22:05
Same same but different
Pneumatic controlled valves, free duration,free lobe separation,free valvelift, no throttlebody, lower pumplosses.

Made in Sweden!

http://www.freevalve.com/

Back to twostrokes please :)

WilDun
8th September 2016, 22:25
with the PatTwo design.
It is not about a small improvement, it is more about a breakthrough. Everything changes.

I understand it is “too unconventional” and spoils the way some member of this forum use to think. However they can simply omit / ignore such posts and proceed to the next ones.
On the other hand, everything used today for “"real world" Bucket Race engine experiences” (as you set it), was yesterday nothing more than a "promising" project.
Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

Sorry everybody, but this is why I reacted - it appeared to belittle the efforts of some guys, - but I shouldn't carry things on, so continue and I'll go and fiddle in my workshop and muddle through! :rolleyes:

manolis
8th September 2016, 23:32
Hello TZ350

You write:
“but are the projects shown on that site your own work?”

No. It is not my own work.
It is a team work.
The team is made of a few engineers.
Everything shown in the pattakon web site have been made by the pattakon team (from inventing, to patenting, to making prototypes, to testing, to presenting in the web, to exhibiting and so on).


Each pattakon project is presented separately (in its own web page), with the patents granted so far (at top right).


For instance, take the 2-stroke OPRE opposed piston engine:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd0A0yyC7DU

It is a 2-stroke Diesel.
Only the piston rings (they are from a Mazda 323F 1600cc), the plain bearing at the big end of each connecting rod (they are from a Yanmar) and the injection system (it comes from a cheap Chinese 4-stroke gen-set) are from the market.
The rest parts were made by hand (at “home”). Only the final grinding of the crankshafts and of the cylinder liner were made externally.

http://www.pattakon.com/pre/opre1_files/OPRE2parts.jpg

The important thing here is the different architecture of the OPRE 2-stroke engine (pull-rod engine): in comparison to a conventional engine, it provides some 30 to 35% longer piston dwell at the “combustion dead center”. Think what this means for a Diesel.



Or take the PatOP 2-stroke (the single crankshaft version of the OPRE):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ByEgfTTq1I

Again the only things coming from the market are the piston rings (for a VW 1.9Tdi), the plain bearings (from a BMW 1,600cc) and the injection system (from a cheap Chinese 4-stroke gen-set). Everything else is “billet” made. We started with an aluminum cylinder (7000 series) of 56Kg (125lb) and we finished with a casing weighing about 10Kg (22lb).

http://www.pattakon.com/patop/PatOPpro1.jpg

http://www.pattakon.com/patop/PatOPpro2.jpg

The “scavenge pump” bore is 130mm (for 64mm stroke), giving 850cc scavenging pump capacity for a 636cc total displacement of this PatOP engine (1.33 scavenge ratio). If you are confused, the PatOP is not a “crankcase scavenged” 2-stroke.

It took about a month on a CNC mill machine and on a CNC lath (the normal work of the machine shop was the first priority, we were making the PatOP in the “breaks” of the normal work; most of the time was consumed in programming than in cutting).
The machine shop owner could not believe the connecting rods could really be assembled on the crankshaft:

http://www.pattakon.com/patop/PatOPpro6.jpg

I had to make a demonstration for him.



Take the PatATi 2-stroke:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXvRaVqiHxs

The casing (the cylinder tube with the cylindrical crankcases at its ends) was made with a conventional TOS lath and with an conventional (non CNC) milling machine in a machine shop. The rest parts (which are the really interesting parts because they offer substantially different breathing than the known 2-stroke: asymmetrical transfer and asymmetrical intake without additional parts) were made at “home”.
It is a single cylinder 800cc 2-stroke engine. See how nicely it works without exhaust.

Here is a model PatATi engine:

http://www.pattakon.com/PatAT/PatATi_model1_small.gif

and here is its timing:

http://www.pattakon.com/PatAT/PatATi_model1_timing.gif

The exhaust closes before the transfer! Think about it.
And the intake (using only the piston, the cylinder and the connecting rod) is way asymmetrical (without reed or rotary valves).



There are several other pattakon projects.
Some of them about 2-strokes.
We try to make at least a “proof of concept” prototype for each one of them.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

Peter1962
9th September 2016, 01:40
Manolis, even if this specific thread is about 2 strokes, I think that your modification of the honda Vtec is a marvel. Consider for example what this could do on a modern 250 or 450 SX engine.

But for your 2 stroke design : couldn't you guys modify an existing 250 SX engine, as proof of concept ? And to be able to make a comparison of your system with an engine that is for the rest identical ?

wobbly
9th September 2016, 09:25
As I said before and I repeat it, this thread is about home based modifications to existing "old school " 2T technology.
Some are interested in Karting, some in MX, some in Buckets, even offshore race-boats - all sports where modifications to existing hardware is part of the enjoyment.
If I was interested in learning about or critiquing a new design I would visit a forum where this is the intent of the membership - that isnt the case here at all.
Again, there are plenty of people out there that have little idea about where a normal 2T ports should be for a particular end use, so show and tell on here helps
everyone.
Starting at complete newbies, and even our esteemed friend Frits would have seen a couple of gems.

FastFred
9th September 2016, 12:45
Hello TZ350

You write:
“but are the projects shown on that site your own work?”

No. It is not my own work. It is a team work. The team is made of a few engineers.
Everything shown in the pattakon web site have been made by the pattakon team (from inventing, to patenting, to making prototypes, to testing, to presenting in the web, to exhibiting and so on).

The machine shop owner could not believe the connecting rods could really be assembled on the crankshaft:

http://www.pattakon.com/patop/PatOPpro6.jpg

I had to make a demonstration for him.

We try to make at least a “proof of concept” prototype for each one of them.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

Hi Manolis, I would love to know more, possibly some unpublished insights and pictures that have not been posted already on the Pattacon website.

324364

Something I scraped from Pattacon, anyone can do it. Its the behind the scenes, original unpublished work that interests me.

manolis
9th September 2016, 17:18
Hello Peter1962

You write:
“I think that your modification of the honda Vtec is a marvel.”


The rod-version-VVA used in the Renault 19 (at left in the photo, more at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonRod.htm ) proved in practice too good and reliable, the roller-version-VVA (the system in the Honda Civic in the youtube video, at right in the photo) is even better:

http://www.pattakon.com/tempman/RenaultHonda1.jpg

However,
the pattakon DVVA (Desmodromic Variable Valve Actuation) is by far better:
It is the combination and evolution of both (rod-VVA and roller-VVA).

For the Honda roller-VVA we had to pay 460Euros for a set of Toda, egg-shape, valve springs (they allow 12+mm valve lift (not possible with the original Honda B16A2 valve springs) and 9,000+rpm).

The DVVA (more at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonDesmo.htm ) :

http://www.pattakon.com/DVA_files/DVVAphoto.jpg

needs not restoring valve springs and is for way-higher-revs (provided the underneath mechanism (pistons, con-rods, crankshaft, block) can withstand the “punishment”).

It is also “more variable” than the roller-VVA and the rod-VVA: the valve duration not only varies continuously from zero to a maximum, but it also varies independently from the valve lift (and vice-versa).
Here they are shown some possible valve lift profiles:

http://www.pattakon.com/DVA_files/DVVAprog.gif

The DVVA is a pure mechanical Desmodromic Variable Valve Actuation system for poppet valve engines; more desmodromic than Ducati’s Desmo (which is non-variable) and way more variable than BMW's valvetronic, Toyota's valvematic, Nissan's VVEL, etc.




Hello FastFred.

You write:
“I would love to know more, possibly some unpublished insights and pictures that have not been posted already on the Pattacon website.”

Look at the above, poor quality, DVVA demonstration prototype.

It was made by hand (only the two race-ways were cut in a CNC mill machine) a few days before the Engine Expo of 2008 (Stuttgart Germany).

Here it is secured at the top of a pile, having a “crank” on the one “camshaft” (which is actually a “crankshaft”) and two levers for the control of the intake valves (the one for the valve duration, the other for the valve lift) and another two levers for the control of the exhaust valves.

http://www.pattakon.com/DVA_files/DVVA_expo.gif

What the label doesn’t write is that everything varies “on the fly”.

For instance, in a motoGP the rider of a DVVA engine, during the race and depending on the instant conditions, can play with the valve duration and the valve lift to find the ideal tuning of his engine (for instance: more torquie at raining and corners, more powerful at straight lines, operation beyond the limit at crucial points (overtake just before the finish line) etc. He can choose, any moment, the ideal tuning (like replacing the “camshafts” by other ones from an infinity of available camshafts, from too mild to too wild)


Here is an unpublished story:

After the presentation of the pattakon VVA’s in the Open Technology Forum of the Engine Expo (third day, last presentation) a guy (German, nearly 70 year old) followed us in the pattakon booth.
As he told us, he was an ex-world -champion in motorcycle racing (the older version of the modern moto-GP), he was also the manufacturer of his racing engines. He showed us photos of his last racing engine (three cylinders) and was more than proud for the improvements / inventions he had made.
He asked for our permission and started playing with the DVVA prototype.
He was turning the “crank” by one hand and was displacing the lift lever and the duration lever by his other hand, looking from below and through the ports the valves opening and closing.
He kept playing and playing with the DVVA prototype for several minutes.
You can’t imagine how happy he was (like a child playing for the first time with a toy), and how sad he was at the same time repeating “I am the one who should invent this…”
As he told me latter, he tried for decades to achieve a variable desmodromic system, unsuccessfully.


Beside the DVVA prototype, we had in the pattakon booth the modified cylinder head of the Honda Civic (roller-VVA).
A Japanese engineer of Honda, wearing an expensive black suit, asked for details and then he started examining the cylinder head, touching it, shifting it, looking for all the details.
When I told him that his suit would get “oiled”, he said “let it be oiled” and continued his “search” more furiously.


No running prototype of the DVVA has been made so far.


However recently it was invented the PatRoVa rotary valve which, among others, is capable for way higher revs than the DVVA and is way simpler and cheaper to be made.


Searching in the web for rotary valves, the best article I found is the article of “yours” Ralph Watson at http://ralphwatson.scienceontheweb.net/rotary.html .

Do read it.

Here Ralph Watson is driving his BSA sport car on New Zealand’s roads having replaced the original cylinder heads of the original V-2 engine by his own “Cross type” rotary valves.

http://www.pattakon.com/tempman/Rotary_Valve_Ralf_Watson_4.jpg




Due to the several negative / non-technical replies - complaints (according which I am spoiling your discussion), please do not respond any longer.

If anybody wants to communicate with me, the contact details are at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonContact.htm

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

Martin1981
9th September 2016, 22:24
Manolis,

this is the wrong Place for you. This Thread has nothing to do with Advertising or Marketing or call it like you want.

regarding your "revolutionary" Engine, you made the same Mistake as Ryger. You did the second step before the first.

1 Step: PROVE that you HAVE a revolutionary Engine that INDEED blows any conventional Engine apart.
2 Step: Open your Mouth, and CLAIM that you have a revolutionary Engine that blows any conventional Engine apart.

As Wobbly said, this Thread and his Readers and Writers is/are sick of Claims and Promises after the Ryger Duck. We dont want to mess around with shit like this again.

breezy
10th September 2016, 07:34
so much info, my head is gonna explode....although, i have just got home from the pub...:bash:

F5 Dave
10th September 2016, 07:42
Hmm, no Ithink ttomorrow is more of a concern

WilDun
10th September 2016, 17:26
Was driving past the Mt Wellington kart track today (Saturday), saw that there was something on, so I called in to have a look, ( that was a rare thing for me) so didn't really recognise anyone, but I noticed they were all a lot younger than me!.
I was surprised to find that it seemed to be Suzuki 150 (four stroke) day! There were maybe a couple of two strokes - this was a surprise to me, but then someone told me that a lot more two strokes would be there on Sunday, so maybe I need to nip down there tomorrow and see the boys doing their stuff on the fast two strokes!

I can tolerate four strokes if they use Castrol 'R' of course, but no such luck! You young guys have missed out on a major part of life! :msn-wink:

husaberg
10th September 2016, 17:37
then someone told me that a lot more two strokes would be there on Sunday, so maybe I need to nip down there tomorrow :


http://cdn.playbuzz.com/cdn/9fe3f685-c095-48af-81f7-2decc4ed607e/c8567919-781c-45c5-9322-1675c7f2ad9e.gif

WilDun
10th September 2016, 19:29
Gawd, not more animations! - don't tell me youse guys down there are still watching Basil Brush! :rolleyes:

husaberg
10th September 2016, 19:49
Gawd, not more animations! - don't tell me youse guys down there are still watching Basil Brush! :rolleyes:

I haven't seen it since I was a wee nipper...:shifty:
http://i.makeagif.com/media/5-17-2015/JQjzoE.gif

G Jones
11th September 2016, 05:43
Please let's get back to 2 stroke stuff ? - I personally don't want to see anything relating to Foul Strokes - on this thread - or anywhere else for that matter - I have absolutely no interest - no matter how technically brilliant or ground breaking - they only fire half as often as they should - no use to me - rant over...


do you know about how far the ducting should protrude in front of the radiator to be affective ? 4" seems like it would do the job but I don't know. I made a ducting system for the chassis I built - TZ350 engine - first time out last year in Belgium - 90 degree air temperature - max temp reached was 55 degrees - far better than the previous setup - but still room for improvement...
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13055346_1063190960393517_7766714058389445433_n.jp g?oh=9254a5b686dbc224c3c2176e56680185&oe=587C17EE

And the inlet with the Fairing fitted.

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/11055335_940443466001601_1258262506464057092_n.jpg ?oh=b920172ebc3d6939a8cb5b6ac5956a9c&oe=58854510

WilDun
11th September 2016, 10:15
So is the "Suter' technology much the same as and based on where Honda left off (ie when they managed to manipulate everybody against two strokes), or is it supposed to be a vast improvement on that? - and where is it now anyway (Suter)?
The Suter (to me) seemed to be the last great hope for two strokes, at least in motorcycles! but I hope I was wrong :rolleyes:
Thank God for Karts, Snowmobiles, outboards and of course KTM and Bombardier, but even they seem to be wavering - at least KTM.
it'll soon be down to Buckets to hold the fort!!

Wobbly & Co.
Did you guys benefit much from freeing up of the racing secrets of the now abandoned two stroke era - yes I realize that most of your fine tuning successes were down to sheer hard work!

wobbly
11th September 2016, 11:23
The Suter ( in the Pulse was the last version ) wasn't that much of a major " improvement " over conventional designs.
Sure it had the flying web with only two common crankcase volumes, and that made the engine somewhat smaller in width.
But that really wasn't any clear advantage in weight or chassis packaging.
Big issue tho was the insane materials technology and cost needed to keep the crank together long enough.
Edit - shit, I must have gone overboard last night on the single malt - I was talking about the Swiss Auto design.
The " new " Suter is nothing clever at all, the fact they took an untested bike to the TT just indicates where they "think " they stand.
Many VERY clever people have tried to crack the injection nightmare on a true 2T racebike - why they thought they were better than all those who
have tried before, is beyond me.
So of course they failed miserably, on a world stage , and made complete dicks of themselves in the process.
Ask yourself why there isnt a Suter in sight in Moto 2 now - all Kalex.

With the publishing of alot of the cylinder and pipe details of Jans Aprilia, and his willing dissemination of small stuff, like water around the plug threads -
many tuners have been able to go way further than they would have otherwise.
Superkart deigns like FPE,PVP,DEA,BRC etc all used most of the technology,but in the 125 World Champ kart engines the designers are
still well behind.
For my part using Jans design directions, and by seeing what he was trying to achieve, my ability has been hugely helped.
I can never thank him ( and Frits ) along with the old maestro Helmut Fath ( who gave us the exhaust nozzle concept ) enough.
And of course now Neels has given us a deadly accurate simulation tool, there is no "black art " involved, its simply hard work as you said.

husaberg
11th September 2016, 13:34
The Suter ( in the Pulse was the last version ) wasn't that much of a major " improvement " over conventional designs.
Sure it had the flying web with only two common crankcase volumes, and that made the engine somewhat smaller in width.
But that really wasn't any clear advantage in weight or chassis packaging.
Big issue tho was the insane materials technology and cost needed to keep the crank together long enough.
Edit - shit, I must have gone overboard last night on the single malt - I was talking about the Swiss Auto design.
The " new " Suter is nothing clever at all, the fact they took an untested bike to the TT just indicates where they "think " they stand.
Many VERY clever people have tried to crack the injection nightmare on a true 2T racebike - why they thought they were better than all those who
have tried before, is beyond me.
So of course they failed miserably, on a world stage , and made complete dicks of themselves in the process.


.

I'll bite Wayne.
The way I see it narrowness of an engine design is not really as important a factor as most think it is.
The reasons are many fold
Firstly the human body is normally the widest part on a bike anyway.
Let alone the fact the width is also decided by the width of the radiator. (Britten did do something about that though)
324387
People swooned over the narrowness and windcutting ability of the V1000 Britten but failed to understand when the rider was on it, it doubled in width anyway.

The Cagiva and the RGV500 plus the YZR500's being twin crank designs were of course narrower than the single crank NSR500, The Swissauto/pulse/ROC ELF) was of course narrower than the single crank Honda as well.(Due to the shared case flying web design)
There is other boons, in two crank designs in regards to Gyro, but ultimately the have more friction and greater losses poorer cramped intakes and less room for transfers. Plus less room for carbs
Sure they are narrower. But its pointless to make it narrower if there is no room for decent swooping transfers and straight intakes. Yamaha Suzuki and Cagiva tried to get mitigate this with 6 main transfer designs.
Below a pic illustrating the compromise Yamaha made in regards to their intakes in the 90's.
I realise you are aware of all of this having designed an engine but I doubt a lot of others actually are.
Effective design is about minimising compromises that effect performance.


324382note the carbs lead to only 4 petals of the 6
324383324384324385
Even the wider spaced Honda sacrifices some intake for width.
324388
Lastly (mute in this situation as it didn't work) but regardless the IOM with its extreme height elevation and weather and atmospheric conditions make it one of the hardest places to carburate a 2t.
I believe they went the Injection route to try and tidy up the intakes.

WilDun
11th September 2016, 15:27
Firstly the human body is normally the widest part on a bike anyway.
Let alone the fact the width is also decided by the width of the radiator. (Britten did do something about that though)

I do believe that Greeves cracked that first (on their humble "Silverstone" production racer), with the radiator under the rider.




Lastly (mute in this situation as it didn't work) but regardless the IOM with ins extreme height elevation and weather and atmospheric conditions make it one of the hardest places to carburate a 2t.
I believe they went the Injection route to try and tidy up the intakes.

But what better place to give it a burst? unfortunately you can't hire public roads for testing not even in Switzerland!
So it more or less had to be the TT (in Switzerland the roads might be just as good as the TT course), but to be fair I think they did mention all that beforehand.

Still didn't do much to help the two stroke cause though!. :rolleyes: - ok, so back to the technical two stroke stuff!

Oh and HUSA, unfortunately I didn't manage to "nip" out to Mt Wellington today, we had to go out and that idea was "nipped' that in the bud! :laugh:

jamathi
11th September 2016, 16:01
The Suter ( in the Pulse was the last version ) wasn't that much of a major " improvement " over conventional designs.
Sure it had the flying web with only two common crankcase volumes, and that made the engine somewhat smaller in width.
But that really wasn't any clear advantage in weight or chassis packaging.
Big issue tho was the insane materials technology and cost needed to keep the crank together long enough.
Edit - shit, I must have gone overboard last night on the single malt - I was talking about the Swiss Auto design.
The " new " Suter is nothing clever at all, the fact they took an untested bike to the TT just indicates where they "think " they stand.
Many VERY clever people have tried to crack the injection nightmare on a true 2T racebike - why they thought they were better than all those who
have tried before, is beyond me.
So of course they failed miserably, on a world stage , and made complete dicks of themselves in the process.
Ask yourself why there isnt a Suter in sight in Moto 2 now - all Kalex.

With the publishing of alot of the cylinder and pipe details of Jans Aprilia, and his willing dissemination of small stuff, like water around the plug threads -
many tuners have been able to go way further than they would have otherwise.
Superkart deigns like FPE,PVP,DEA,BRC etc all used most of the technology,but in the 125 World Champ kart engines the designers are
still well behind.
For my part using Jans design directions, and by seeing what he was trying to achieve, my ability has been hugely helped.
I can never thank him ( and Frits ) along with the old maestro Helmut Fath ( who gave us the exhaust nozzle concept ) enough.
And of course now Neels has given us a deadly accurate simulation tool, there is no "black art " involved, its simply hard work as you said.

In the end Aprilia finally understood the uselessness of their 500/2
So they bought the Swissauto, but never used it because of the switch to 4-strokes.
Honda parts, or copies of them were mainly used.
And the crankshaft was a real piece of shit, with crankpins welded to the crank webs.
A sure sign of inability in my opinion!
A very bad design!
They also used different exhaust nozzles in each pipe....
A friend of mine made their exhaust pipes.
Later he asked which nozzles made best power.
The answer was: which nozzles do you mean?
They had tested without them!!!!

Once I visited ADM, who made many sidecar engines, also using Honda cylinders, pistons and many other parts.
He made very good crankshafts, really wonderful!
Now he makes copies of old Japanese Works bikes.
Even the carburettors and their parts.
A real artist!!

TZ350
11th September 2016, 16:53
Page 1570 .......

Heaps of photos available for purchase here from from CAMS championship round 1 and the BOB
Thanks to Mel at Shoot The Moon Photography .

https://www.facebook.com/Melanie.Smyth.Gmail7/photos/?tab=album&album_id=895465773916742

Cheers


last race with fat so me in half a hour lol .. https://youtu.be/GGFWHpJCly0


Here's the race the BOB after as I forgot to turn my gopro on for the BOB. Bit shaky but shows a good battle tween one of the GPR boys and Travis Wylie


https://youtu.be/sbpxyBT1qlE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBlNv1p_Ejg Vid from 3 place getter Ollymoto. the vid is easier to watch, the GPR footage made me :sick:


https://youtu.be/SwXXqEl-H3A ... last part 3


part 2 in a hour https://youtu.be/et5-kQ8JJag


great video tim ! thanks again tim and your wife for letting me and the boys stay again ! here is part one of the bob with regan in a hour .
https://youtu.be/heiwEitRnI4



What pipe temps were in the sim ? Pipe temp should be 325 at the bottom of the powerband and 425 at peak power.


324493

The last big hurdle was setting up the power valve servo control in the Ignitec software. I have never had a power valve before and had no idea how it is supposed to be done but this is how I went about it.

The first step was to use Ignitec's test routine to run the servo back and forth to get some idea where two thirds open is. This was shown to be about 300mVolts on the servo feedback.

324492324491

1st step, drew a straight line at 300mV on the power valve map and by adjusting the servo cables adjusted the power valve blade to the fully open position.

324489324490

2nd step, pull the left side of the map down until the power valve servo has moved to the fully closed position.

324488

3rd step, draw a line on the map between the two points.

And there it is, ready for final setup on the dyno.


You can easily see if the open/close settings are correct as the servo is cycled up/down the instant you apply power.
Its way easy to set/adjust the servo if you disconnect the two power wires ( I use a separate plug ) leaving only the
3 wires from the feedback pot.
Then you wind the servo back and forth with grips on the pulley to establish the full up,full down mV positions, then program the numbers.
The trick on the dyno is to do 3 runs, full up,full down, and with the PV at 1/2 height in the cylinder ( NOT 1/2 way on the graph ).
This will show you when to start opening, when to be full open,and what rpm/mV to be at 1/2 height for best power everywhere.

mr bucketracer
11th September 2016, 17:27
Page 1570 .......looks like the natives have dictated what to write on here lol

WilDun
11th September 2016, 17:54
looks like the natives have dictated what to wright on here lol

"Wright"? "write"? "rite" ? gotta get it "right" and sorry to be a smartass (couldn't help myself) - forgive me. :facepalm:

Why didn't you go to Mt.Wellington today?

mr bucketracer
11th September 2016, 18:12
"Wright"? "write"? "rite" ? gotta get it "right" and sorry to be a smartass (couldn't help myself) - forgive me. :facepalm:

Why didn't you go to Mt.Wellington today?lol . my rider got second place on a gpr bike . Only 40 kgs heavyer than the winner but 4 stroke wins again he he

WilDun
11th September 2016, 18:35
lol . my rider got second place on a gpr bike . Only 40 kgs heavyer than the winner but 4 stroke wins again he he

Ah well, luckily I like fourstrokes (using Castrol 'R') but I have heard that you've got at least two 2T barrels in your posession, - wonder why?

adegnes
11th September 2016, 19:28
Been a long time since I posted anything about my Peugeot Spx project, if anyone's interested I can do a little write up on what's been going on. Anyways, I'm currently trying to dial it in on my dyno and I'm experiencing some issues, need advice/help.

My sim of the engine give about 20-21 hp peak @ 15000rpm with 87% combustion efficiency.
The weird thing is dyno runs show only around 13 wheel hp peak @ low 12500rpm - somewhere around 16bhp(wheel/roller0.95 x chain0.95 x variator 0.88, best loss estimate I could come up with)

I've gone through my numbers, the computer model is accurate.
I've jettet up/down and shifted the ignition timing around to no avail.
Ignition energy related?
What's going on?

Max egt ca 600c, cht around 80c, is the low cht telling me something? By doing 6-7 runs in a row without break I can make it touch 110c.

Is my combustion efficiency horrendously low? If I lower it to 75% in the sim it seems to reflect reality with 16hp peak @ around 12500rpm. why?



I'll post sim file later, not at my computer atm.

edit: here ya go! I'll post the dyno graphs too later, different computer.
324397324394324398324395324396324393

adegnes
11th September 2016, 21:30
and the transfers.
324399

Dyno run.
Read from the big dip, thats when the variator is fully geared out. Under the dip is a combination of untuned variator, clutch slip and me manipulating the ratio with the foot lever. The dip is when I release all pressure from the lever.
Ok repeatability doing it this way.
The rpm readout is about 500 too low, have to adjust the ratio.
Tricky stuff dynoing with the variator doing its thing.

324403

DaisyB
12th September 2016, 06:10
Tricky stuff dynoing with the variator doing its thing.

-Use/make a lock-out kit for the variator/rear pully?

adegnes
12th September 2016, 06:19
Tricky stuff dynoing with the variator doing its thing.

-Use/make a lock-out kit for the variator/rear pully?

Good idea!
I've also thought about using timing pulleys and a toothed belt, or sprocket and chain. Either way I need to retain the clutch on the jackshaft.
It'll have to wait, need to figure out were I went wrong and fix it!

wobbly
12th September 2016, 07:52
Yes, this has been discovered a long time ago - variators chew up a huge amount of rear wheel power and make repeatable dyno
results impossible.
The only way is to use a timing belt/pulleys as you thought to get any accuracy of the engine performance.
What pipe temps were in the sim ?

adegnes
12th September 2016, 08:25
Yes, this has been discovered a long time ago - variators chew up a huge amount of rear wheel power and make repeatable dyno
results impossible.
The only way is to use a timing belt/pulleys as you thought to get any accuracy of the engine performance.
What pipe temps were in the sim ?


275c - 10000rpm
375c - 15000rpm

I just discovered the disc valve was loose on the crank, could move 30ish degrees back and forth. :facepalm:
How bad would an engine perform with say 175/55 or 115/115 inlet timing?
I'll clean and loctite it real good this time, crossing fingers!

wobbly
12th September 2016, 09:22
Pipe temp should be 325 at the bottom of the powerband and 425 at peak power.
What are the STA values for the rotary valve using the figures you entered.
142 and 82 are very early timings for anything making good power.

adegnes
12th September 2016, 09:54
Pipe temp should be 325 at the bottom of the powerband and 425 at peak power.
What are the STA values for the rotary valve using the figures you entered.
142 and 82 are very early timings for anything making good power.

STA
324406

Open and close later? So I would be better of with say 130/90?
Need to read up on the intake side of things...

Used lower temp because pump gas not avgas, wrong?

TZ350
12th September 2016, 10:29
Been a long time since I posted anything about my Peugeot Spx project, if anyone's interested I can do a little write up on what's been going on.

Yes please and lots of pictures too, if possible.

wobbly
12th September 2016, 10:43
Using 95 or 98 pump gas the pipe temp is close to Avgas.
But 91 makes more power with a richer mixture and more advance - and hates compression.
Back at 142 it will be a bitch to carb properly, i would start at 135 and close it where you need to to get the top end you are after.
Of course it depends on how much mid you can afford to loose - but 90* is very late and suitable for very high end applications.

TZ350
12th September 2016, 16:04
324410

Breakfast of Champions

324411

Av ... https://www.facebook.com/avalonbiddleracing

41juergen
12th September 2016, 17:27
Been a long time since I posted anything about my Peugeot Spx project, if anyone's interested I can do a little write up on what's been going on. Anyways, I'm currently trying to dial it in on my dyno and I'm experiencing some issues, need advice/help.

My sim of the engine give about 20-21 hp peak @ 15000rpm with 87% combustion efficiency.
The weird thing is dyno runs show only around 13 wheel hp peak @ low 12500rpm - somewhere around 16bhp(wheel/roller0.95 x chain0.95 x variator 0.88, best loss estimate I could come up with)

I've gone through my numbers, the computer model is accurate.
I've jettet up/down and shifted the ignition timing around to no avail.
Ignition energy related?
What's going on?

Max egt ca 600c, cht around 80c, is the low cht telling me something? By doing 6-7 runs in a row without break I can make it touch 110c.

Is my combustion efficiency horrendously low? If I lower it to 75% in the sim it seems to reflect reality with 16hp peak @ around 12500rpm. why?


I'll post sim file later, not at my computer atm.

edit: here ya go! I'll post the dyno graphs too later, different computer.
324397324394324398324395324396324393

Your STA's you have shown predict approx. 18 crank HP and aren't your Exhaust timing as well the transfers not a bit low?

wobbly
12th September 2016, 17:50
The sim blowdown shows 18.5 crank,so this means around 15.5 rear wheel on a Dynojet - if everything is done real well.
Add in another 10% loss for the belt drive and now you have 14 Hp.

adegnes
12th September 2016, 18:09
Using 95 or 98 pump gas the pipe temp is close to Avgas.
But 91 makes more power with a richer mixture and more advance - and hates compression.
Back at 142 it will be a bitch to carb properly, i would start at 135 and close it where you need to to get the top end you are after.
Of course it depends on how much mid you can afford to loose - but 90* is very late and suitable for very high end applications.

Ok, thanks for the advice!

adegnes
12th September 2016, 18:16
Your STA's you have shown predict approx. 18 crank HP and aren't your Exhaust timing as well the transfers not a bit low?

You're right about that! I want to establish a baseline before I start grinding further - be able to quantify how bad I screw up...


The sim blowdown shows 18.5 crank,so this means around 15.5 rear wheel on a Dynojet - if everything is done real well.
Add in another 10% loss for the belt drive and now you have 14 Hp.

Maybe I'm not that far off then.
I'll see if I can touch 14 on the roller, then add some blowdown and a better pipe!

_____
13th September 2016, 04:04
Pipe temp should be 325 at the bottom of the powerband and 425 at peak power.


Hi wob and everyone!
I have a general question on the exhaust temperatures. Are they a depending on the cc of the engine?
I worked on a 50cc engine with engmod and the estimated peak of the simulation was at least 2000 RPM higher than in real life. In fact, i needed to make the temperature on the exhaust unphysically low (150°C) to get the rpm range to suit the reality.
I would suggest the temperature to be a formula of the cubic capacity, bmep and blowdown (more blowdown meaning less backflow to the transfers, thus the first gas scavenged and lost through the exhaust will be way cooler than with less blowdown)


cheers from germany
Christoph

adegnes
13th September 2016, 04:44
Back at 142 it will be a bitch to carb properly

Could my extreme case of early opening due to the loose disc be the reason my carb has been spewing fuel out the overflow at certain rpms, not vibration as I thought? Thinking about it, I've experienced far more vibration in other bikes without it affecting carburetion.

adegnes
13th September 2016, 05:13
Opening the disc earlier in order to increase inlet angle.area will function mathematically but angle.area is only one of the factors affecting intake flow. It would not be very wise to open the disc when crankcase pressure is still higher than the pressure upstream of the disc.
The lower the revs, the more time there is available for the crankcase pressure to drop; at 9000 rpm you could open the disc before BDC to good effect; crankcase pressure would not drop so far and scavenging flow would not be slowed down so much, resulting in more mixture reaching the cylinder. But such an early opening timing would seek revenge at higher revs.
Another effect, also mentioned by Wobbly: the earlier you open the disc, the smaller the pressure difference between crankcase and inlet tract and the weaker the suction pulse at the needle jet, which makes setting the carburation increasingly difficult.

Maybe mixture on its way out of the crankcase was colliding with mixture on its way in, and this caused higher than atmospheric pressure in the carb, blowing fuel ut of the bowl.
No fuel spilling below 11-12k.
You might also recall that I had a hell of a time getting it to start at all before I found the carb "sweet spot".
Interesting.

wobbly
13th September 2016, 08:33
In my experience the only thing that really affects the pipe av temp is specifically what egt in the header creates max power.
This is tied directly to the bsfc number and this is affected by the fuels octane,and thus indirectly the burn speed,along with the fuels energy content.
Fuel such as 91 pump or some race fuels ( such as the unleaded that replaced that used in the 2T GP classes ) makes best power when running well under stochiometric.
Thus when run rich with a ton of ignition timing, and reduced compression, the egt in the header is typically in the high 500*C/low 600*C range.
Whereas Avgas and real leaded racegas such as 110 octane loves compression, and responds well to lean mixtures and lots of retard to increase pipe heat.
These engines run in the high 600*C range in the header.
95/98 pump gas is similar to Avgas but cannot tolerate as much com, so the egt rises, close to that Avgas would show with higher com.
Thus most sims work well with the 325/425 wall temp range, but this needs modification where an out of range combination of fueling/com/timing is used.

Rotary valves create havoc in the carb bore over the emulsion tube exit , even with " normal " timings.
Have completely weird arse numbers,even going back to 142* makes everything so unpredicatable its impossible to sim it properly let alone tune the carb effectively.

Frits Overmars
13th September 2016, 08:37
I just discovered the disc valve was loose on the crank, could move 30ish degrees back and forth.

... my extreme case of early opening due to the loose disc That would be extreme indeed, Adegnes. The disc does not run without friction; it has to be taken along by the crankshaft. And if there is any play, it will lag behind, opening 30° later instead of 30° earlier, but also closing 30° later than the 83° aTDC that you mentioned on the previous page. Now that will really upset the carburation.

adegnes
13th September 2016, 09:15
That would be extreme indeed, Adegnes. The disc does not run without friction; it has to be taken along by the crankshaft. And if there is any play, it will lag behind, opening 30° later instead of 30° earlier, but also closing 30° later than the 83° aTDC that you mentioned on the previous page. Now that will really upset the carburation.

Of course:facepalm:

dmcca
13th September 2016, 16:25
Anyone tried Pyro Putty 1000 before?

http://www.aremco.com/ceramic-metallic-pastes/

Just bought some, approx $100AUD for a kit which makes about 250ml. Going to try it in the exhaust duct and AUX EX ports to test different shapes before welding/replating. Fingers crossed it holds together long enough to get some decent dyno runs in.

wobbly
13th September 2016, 16:35
I used it to lower the Aux ports on a Rotax 257 for sprint kart use.
Worked fine.
But the issue with filling the main duct with it means the ceramic putty will be a first class insulator - the retained charge will overheat
and you will loose power.
No matter how good the " shape " may be.

dmcca
13th September 2016, 19:14
I used it to lower the Aux ports on a Rotax 257 for sprint kart use.
Worked fine.
But the issue with filling the main duct with it means the ceramic putty will be a first class insulator - the retained charge will overheat
and you will loose power.
No matter how good the " shape " may be.

Thanks for the info... i hadnt considered the insulation properties, thats a very good point.

Did you leave it in the AUX ports long term or was it only used for short tests?

ief
14th September 2016, 06:50
But now this question remains (although Adagenes his problem seems two folded now...


Is my combustion efficiency horrendously low? If I lower it to 75% in the sim it seems to reflect reality with 16hp peak @ around 12500rpm. why?

and:


Hi wob and everyone!
I have a general question on the exhaust temperatures. Are they a depending on the cc of the engine?
I worked on a 50cc engine with engmod and the estimated peak of the simulation was at least 2000 RPM higher than in real life. In fact, i needed to make the temperature on the exhaust unphysically low (150°C) to get the rpm range to suit the reality.

I myself run 0.7/ 0.75comb efficiency to get in the ball park of what I figure it should be although my model is still in progress... (50cc crap engine)

Where should one look and what effects comb efficiciency in the first place or why does engmod happily shows X hp when STA numbers suggest something (way) lower and like Wob says more in what should and could be expected?

wobbly
14th September 2016, 09:03
There are a dozen " AhHa " moments you find when the sim isnt agreeing with reality, and it nearly allways comes down to crap in = more crap out.
My latest was to run Turbulent on a 95 pump gas sim, import the Wiebe numbers, then simply changed to Avgas and added 2 points of com from
13.7 to 15.7.
This gave a bullshit result, reason - I should have rerun the new setup itself in Turbulent and imported those numbers.
It turned out I had accidentally found a glitch in the code, so Neels fixed that immediately.
If something is weird and you are dead certain the sim is accurate, send the pack to the code man to look at.
But be certain nothing is amiss - I have made a couple of real dumbarse errors that were so simple it was embarrassing, but at least I learned even more respect for what
can be achieved as the sim has developed.
As we all have found,every small change in a 2T has some quite unexpected result because another factor not even in mind at all has suddenly assumed importance.
Keep in mind,the STA numbers are a guide to what the ports can achieve IF they and everything else, are optimized for the end use.
Having ports setup for a 15 Bar bmep, running a pipe with a 36% header is simply not going to work as expected.
PS - if you need 0.7 CE then something, or a combination of factors, is preventing a true sim representation.

jfn2
16th September 2016, 10:26
Would someone please post a pic and information on the exhaust sensor they use to measure wall temps and where they mount them? Also info on where to buy them. Thank you.

wobbly
16th September 2016, 10:55
You place the egt sensor around 50mm from the flange or spigot - with the tip in the middle of the header diameter.
Simplest method is a stainless clamp, as welded on nuts are very unreliable.
The only sensor to buy ( and the clamp ) is from EGT Industries.
Called a Stinger - the only sensor thats guaranteed for 2 years and cheap as, 60usd for one with 12" pigtail and yellow K plug.
Its a fast response open tip type and I have used dozens of them, never had a failure .

jfn2
16th September 2016, 11:09
Thank you wobbly, BUT, what I'm talking about is a sensor to measure the WALL temp not the gas temp. Like the wall of the exhaust pipe.

wobbly
16th September 2016, 12:34
Easy, use a laser heat gun - cheaper than a probe and accurate as hell.

jfn2
16th September 2016, 12:49
wobbly, yes very good for the dyno but I'm using a data collector on the bike and would like to see how a fairing or even the wind effects the pipe wall temps. Also how do I come up with a average wall temp for a pipe?

wobbly
16th September 2016, 16:00
Try this.

You can mount several on the pipe with a small welded on nut.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2PCS-lot-1-5m-K-type-Thermocouple-Cold-End-Surface-SMD-Nose-Probe-Temperature-Sensor-Temperature/1750226059.html?spm=2114.40010308.4.10.F2nrAA

TZ350
16th September 2016, 22:16
324487

Gave Mr Bigglesworth a kick in the guts tonight, started right up. Started and ran on the injectors Ok. Looks promising for fuel injection and the water cooled engine is so much quieter than the air-cooled version was.

TZ350
16th September 2016, 22:55
324493

The last big hurdle was setting up the power valve servo control in the Ignitec software. I have never had a power valve before and had no idea how it is supposed to be done but this is how I went about it.

The first step was to use Ignitec's test routine to run the servo back and forth to get some idea where two thirds open is. This was shown to be about 3000mVolts on the servo feedback.

324492324491

1st step, drew a straight line at 3000mV on the power valve map and by adjusting the servo cables adjusted the power valve blade to the fully open position.

324489324490

2nd step, pull the left side of the map down until the power valve servo has moved to the fully closed position.

324488

3rd step, draw a line on the map between the two points.

And there it is, ready for final setup on the dyno.

jfn2
16th September 2016, 22:57
Thank you, wobbly. I will give them try. Definitely cheap enough.

dark art
17th September 2016, 06:37
324488

3rd step, draw a line on the map between the two points.

And there it is, ready for final setup on the dyno.

Usually the powervalve is setup to open sharply, in a rpm where the powercurve with closed valve crosses the powercurvewith open valve, say at 10000 rpm.


image taken from google for reference
http://s111.photobucket.com/user/rogue1970/media/1989%20Suzuki%20Quadzilla/Dynos/PVDisabled.jpg.html


edit: I guess you mean 3000mv instead 300?

adegnes
17th September 2016, 07:48
324487

Gave Mr Bigglesworth a kick in the guts tonight, started right up. Started and ran on the injectors Ok. Looks promising for fuel injection and the water cooled engine is so much quieter than the air-cooled version was.

:niceone:


Yes please and lots of pictures too, if possible.

I've fixed the intake timing, holding back on the writeup until after it's been on the dyno. Hoping for a success story...

F5 Dave
17th September 2016, 08:27
So carb and injectors? Hedging your bets?

bucketracer
17th September 2016, 09:00
Great work TeeZee, but what is with the carb and fuel injectors? ..... :niceone:

wobbly
17th September 2016, 09:59
You can easily see if the open/close settings are correct as the servo is cycled up/down the instant you apply power.
Its way easy to set/adjust the servo if you disconnect the two power wires ( I use a separate plug ) leaving only the
3 wires from the feedback pot.
Then you wind the servo back and forth with grips on the pulley to establish the full up,full down mV positions, then program the numbers.
The trick on the dyno is to do 3 runs, full up,full down, and with the PV at 1/2 height in the cylinder ( NOT 1/2 way on the graph ).
This will show you when to start opening, when to be full open,and what rpm/mV to be at 1/2 height for best power everywhere.

TZ350
17th September 2016, 11:39
Thanks Wob for the tips on setting up the PV.

F5 and Bucket, the dual carb EFI thing. The carb is so I can actually get to ride this thing and the EFI is so I can continue developing the fuel injection system. Its simple to swap, its as simple as turning the EFI fuel pump off and opening the fuel tap to the carburettor.

Also I want to do some back to back comparisons, 24mm carb vis 30 and EFI vis carb.

Dark Art, yes you are right 3,000mV not 300 like I originally posted. The servo's sensor range is 0-5Volt so 3Volts or 3000mV like you said.

TZ350
17th September 2016, 11:47
:niceone: I've fixed the intake timing, holding back on the writeup until after it's been on the dyno. Hoping for a success story...

Looking forward to hearing how it goes.

F5 Dave
17th September 2016, 14:26
Thanks Wob for the tips on setting up the PV.

F5 and Bucket, the dual carb EFI thing. The carb is so I can actually get to ride this thing and the EFI is so I can continue developing the fuel injection system. Its simple to swap, its as simple as turning the EFI fuel pump off and opening the fuel tap to the carburettor.

Also I want to do some back to back comparisons, 24mm carb vis 30 and EFI vis carb.

Dark Art, yes you are right 3,000mV not 300 like I posted. The servo's sensor range is 0-5Volt so 3Volts or 3000mV like you said.
Can use both and then slowly off for past peak

adegnes
18th September 2016, 07:19
Looking forward to hearing how it goes.

The dyno showed very little, if any difference at all after fixing the loose disc valve.

I think perplexed is the word...

Frits Overmars
18th September 2016, 10:05
I think perplexed is the word...Welcome to the wonderful world of two-strokes :msn-wink:.

TZ350
18th September 2016, 11:36
The dyno showed very little, if any difference at all after fixing the loose disc valve.

Interesting result .... :scratch:

adegnes
18th September 2016, 22:17
Back to head scratching.
I don't understand why peak power is at 2500-3000rpm less than in the sim?
Saw close to 1200F/650C EGT when dynoing this time.
Should get the waves moving in the pipe.
Maybe it's the low exhaust timing/limited blowdown keeping it back? Engmod doesn't think so.
Meassured pipe wall temp in the belly, max 170C, should be more right?

Carb is still spewing fuel, but responds to jetting so it can't be that bad. Going much richer/leaner on the main = less power.
I've discovered a small pinhole in my header at the flange and one in the belly. Black oily goo is seeping out of both after a few runs. Normal? Is it dumping lots of unburnt mixture into the pipe, but then how can egt be ok?
Double checked ignition timing again, ok.

It will happily rev past 17k on the stand.

Perplexed.

Frits Overmars
18th September 2016, 22:51
Saw close to 1200F/650C EGT when dynoing this time. Should get the waves moving in the pipe. Maybe it's the low exhaust timing/limited blowdown keeping it back? 186°, wasn't it? That is very low.


Carb is still spewing fuel.At low revs (late disc closing) or at high revs(disc closing too early)?


It will happily rev past 17k on the stand.Did you try distance pieces between cylinder and header? They may show you where to look.

adegnes
18th September 2016, 23:24
186°, wasn't it? That is very low.

Yep, 186°. My plan was to establish a baseline with minimal modification to the cylinder(just enough to make it work ok with my current pipe). Guess that's been done now, and I can raise it to a more sensible number like 195ish.


At low revs (late disc closing) or at high revs(disc closing too early)?

High revs, from around 11k. Closing at 87° now.



Did you try distance pieces between cylinder and header? They may show you where to look.

Good idea!

Frits Overmars
19th September 2016, 04:50
High revs, from around 11k. Closing at 87° now.Your maximum power rpm is 12500 according to the dyno (and 15000 in the sim) so you can't call 11000 rpm high revs. An engine that is supposed to produce maximum power at 15000 rpm, is just waking up at 11000 rpm.
Disc closure at 87° aTDC is rather late so your carb spewing is probably blow-back rather than bounce-back, unless you have a very long inlet tract or a very small carb diameter.

adegnes
19th September 2016, 05:25
Your maximum power rpm is 12500 according to the dyno (and 15000 in the sim) so you can't call 11000 rpm high revs. An engine that is supposed to produce maximum power at 15000 rpm, is just waking up at 11000 rpm.
Disc closure at 87° aTDC is rather late so your carb spewing is probably blow-back rather than bounce-back, unless you have a very long inlet tract or a very small carb diameter.

You're right, and it is just waking up at 11000 both in the sim and real life, the only problem is in real life it's getting awfully tired at 13000,and goes back to sleep at 15000.

The spewing is out of the overflow(there's significant blow-back at lower rpm too) and I'm back to blaming vibration(even though it doesn't feel that severe). Both float and needle/seat are in good condition, and I've tried different float heights and made shure it doesn't hang up on the overflow tube(common pwk issue).

My whole inlet tract is 112mm if I remember correctly, and the carb venturi is 24mm.

wobbly
19th September 2016, 08:05
Something is seriously wrong with the engine setup if its that far off the sim peak power rpm, or conversely the sim is seriously flawed.
But in any case having fuel spewing from the overflows means by obvious inference that the same overflow fuel is spewing out of the pilot
and emulsion tube into the intake,as the bowl is way overfull.
You will never get any sense out of jet changes/tuning while this is happening.

adegnes
19th September 2016, 08:16
Something is seriously wrong with the engine setup if its that far off the sim peak power rpm, or conversely the sim is seriously flawed.
But in any case having fuel spewing from the overflows means by obvious inference that the same overflow fuel is spewing out of the pilot
and emulsion tube into the intake,as the bowl is way overfull.
You will never get any sense out of jet changes/tuning while this is happening.

Exactly, something is seriously wrong with either my sim or the engine! But what, except for the carb overflowing, I can't find anything.
You're right though, no point in trying anything before the carb issue is fixed.
I've thought about going to a diaphragm carb, as they should be more vibration tolerant.

TZ350
19th September 2016, 08:32
I've thought about going to a diaphragm carb, as they should be more vibration tolerant.

324544

I have pulled 28hp on the dyno with this Tillotson HL360A carb (24mm venture) hard mounted to the engine. The bike was vibrating so bad fuel was spewing out of the fuel tank. Getting drenched in fuel on the dyno provided its own interesting moments.

adegnes
19th September 2016, 09:03
324544

I have pulled 28hp on the dyno with this Tillotson HL360A carb (24mm venture) and the bike was vibrating so bad fuel was spewing out of the fuel tank. Getting drenched in fuel on the dyno provided its own interesting moments.

Sounds like the carb for me!

TZ350
19th September 2016, 09:05
Pin holes in pipe, Black oily goo is seeping out of both after a few runs. Normal?

My experience too, even with bikes that are running very well. I expect black oily goo bleeding from small cracks or pin holes in a pipe is normal.

wobbly
19th September 2016, 09:55
If the engine is vibrating that bad as to spew fuel out the overflows, then the balance factor is wrong.
PM me and i will check the sim pack.

adegnes
19th September 2016, 17:29
If the engine is vibrating that bad as to spew fuel out the overflows, then the balance factor is wrong.
PM me and i will check the sim pack.

I think the balance factor is around 30-40%, can't find my post about it. I do remember that it was far too low initially(<25%), and after drilling out the alu slugs in the balancing holes and shaving material from the inside of the webs it vibrated much less.
Actually it doesn't vibrate that bad at all, could be the carb. Should try another one.

Thanks for taking the time to look at my sim, I'll pm you later!

Edit: Can't find my post about the new balance factor cause I never made one... It's 38%. I'll write that post later today, found the pics.

wobbly
19th September 2016, 17:51
A factor that low is suitable for a horizontal cylinder ?

TZ350
19th September 2016, 21:04
324571

Got the EFI Suzuki GP/NSR110 on the dyno tonight.

Not great, only 26hp, was hoping for 30. But still its promising, even showing some promising driveability .

324572

Nowhere right yet but improved the midrange with a bit of fiddling with the PV, I expect there is plenty more yet. I need three computers at once, one each for ignition/PV - EFI and dyno.

mr bucketracer
19th September 2016, 21:37
good work rob , not to bad realy off the cuff , more than crapy old fxr's for a start

adegnes
20th September 2016, 01:05
good job!:niceone:

adegnes
20th September 2016, 01:17
A factor that low is suitable for a horizontal cylinder ?

It's the highest I can get it without mallory in the webs.

I re-read the replies I got here last time I was wining about my vibrant bike, and there's a tip I haven't tried yet; weighting down the carb to change it's "frequency". Now with 38% bf instead of <25%, vibration is much less severe and it might do the trick.

I've just started working on the bike again after a long period of life getting in the way, and apparently need to catch up on where I was and what needs sorting (and what I have/haven't posted).

ief
20th September 2016, 04:59
Kind of miss the copper 'bucket stuff' Rob ;)

Looks promising.

richban
20th September 2016, 08:10
324571

Got the EFI Suzuki GP/NSR110 on the dyno tonight.

Not great, only 26hp, was hoping for 30. But still its promising, even showing some promising driveability .

324572

Nowhere right yet but improved the midrange with a bit of fiddling with the PV, I expect there is plenty more yet. I need three computers at once, one each for ignition/PV - EFI and dyno.

Thats great Rob. I am sure you will fatten that up really nicely with the power valves. Good to see that old cylinder put to good use. Is it still using the stock porting?

TZ350
20th September 2016, 08:45
Good to see that old cylinder put to good use. Is it still using the stock porting?

Yes, stock porting. Only modification to the cylinder was injectors and 2mm off the top for the reduced stroke. Wanted to keep things easy to replicate.

andrew a
20th September 2016, 12:24
324544

I have pulled 28hp on the dyno with this Tillotson HL360A carb (24mm venture) hard mounted to the engine. The bike was vibrating so bad fuel was spewing out of the fuel tank. Getting drenched in fuel on the dyno provided its own interesting moments.


That how to make a bucket go WOOF in flames. A mouth ago I was working on a VW powered off roader It didn't have exhaust on it and backfired. Up it went in flames. Very exciting for a while. Got it out Ok but could have been so much worse!

SwePatrick
20th September 2016, 16:50
324571

Got the EFI Suzuki GP/NSR110 on the dyno tonight.

Not great, only 26hp, was hoping for 30. But still its promising, even showing some promising driveability .

324572

Nowhere right yet but improved the midrange with a bit of fiddling with the PV, I expect there is plenty more yet. I need three computers at once, one each for ignition/PV - EFI and dyno.

Dunno if it´s been tested, but is the injector placed so it injects 'upstream' against airflow in secondary transfers?
What i refer to is that air is so light, and fuel is so heavy.
The injectorflow will reduce speed in airflow.
Or is fuel injected when transfers is closed?(then no problem with airspeed)

If injectorbeam is flowing WITH airflow, you can actually get a small increase of airflow(ejector effect).

Rgds
Patrick

Flettner
20th September 2016, 20:39
A stock F9 is 28HP, and that's a 350.

TZ350
20th September 2016, 20:50
... is the injector placed so it injects 'upstream' against airflow in secondary transfers?

Yes secondary injectors are against the airflow in the B transfers. I read somewhere that against the airflow aided mixing. I hope they were right.

324581

Second dyno session. Red is where we were last night, Blue 27.5hp is where we got to tonight. 28 looks very possible 30 maybe with a bit of work on the cylinder.

Also because the head insert is 2mm deeper than normal the combustion chamber is a crazy shape, looks very much like the old Kawasaki top hat design. To get it any better requires a total re design of the head cover and insert. It needs an insert that I can sink the plug down into.

And the inlet timing is, opens 135 BTDC and closes 90 ATDC. With the big disk I really don't need that much duration so I will try closing it earlier.

Frits Overmars
21st September 2016, 01:58
Yes secondary injectors are against the airflow in the B transfers. I read somewhere that against the airflow aided mixing. I hope they were right.
And the inlet timing is, opens 135 BTDC and closes 90 ATDC. With the big disk I really don't need that much duration so I will try closing it earlier.Injecting against the airflow does help mixing. Each fuel droplet encounters more air. And hopefully the air stream will consume or at least slow down those droplets before they hit a wall and form large drops again.
Can you rotate the inlet disc? 145°/80° should function OK and you would not have to make a new disc.

dark art
21st September 2016, 02:38
Also because the head insert is 2mm deeper
I wonder if that sharp corner all round may be a good place to promote detonation.

jonny quest
21st September 2016, 10:36
That's a flat torque curve for a 2 stroke TZ!

SwePatrick
21st September 2016, 18:24
Yes secondary injectors are against the airflow in the B transfers. I read somewhere that against the airflow aided mixing. I hope they were right.


Yes. they´re correct.
But also am i.
I have seen losses in power on foulstrokes when people getting creative with injectors ;)
Same story with shooting a lot of nitrous into an inlet manifold, suddenly the carburetor can stop doing it´s job, due to high loss of airspeed.
Therefor there is an market with special built holley carbs to people who want´s to shoot huge amounts of nitrous.

Rgds.

jamathi
21st September 2016, 21:26
Yes. they´re correct.
But also am i.
I have seen losses in power on foulstrokes when people getting creative with injectors ;)
Same story with shooting a lot of nitrous into an inlet manifold, suddenly the carburetor can stop doing it´s job, due to high loss of airspeed.
Therefor there is an market with special built holley carbs to people who want´s to shoot huge amounts of nitrous.

Rgds.

Would it not be better to inject the nitrous directly into the crankcase?
Has anyone tried this?

jamathi
21st September 2016, 21:34
[QUOTE=wobbly;

Wobbly, did you ever think or try to turn the exhaust duct 'upside down'?
Now I think it could be better for flow, especially blow-down.
We once did a small and inconclusive test at Aprilia.
But not really well done....
Not nearly enough I think now.
I mean with a 'hollow' underside, like an original ROTAX has.
And the same restricted duct size as we use now, filling in the top side.
So keeping the same volume and port size.
And Frits, what do you think?

ief
21st September 2016, 22:41
Something like this Jan?

Muciek
22nd September 2016, 02:07
Tz , what kind of radiator are You using and did You measured the water temp?

wobbly
22nd September 2016, 07:36
But Jan has also stated that the optimum down angle of the roof he tested was 25*.
Maybe increasing this,along with lowering the floor at the port exit could be "better ".
Maybe I can get to try this idea with Franco at TM - the roof change would be easily done by scraping the core,but a hollow floor
would need a CAD change, not as easy.
Fear not, I want to do it.

Frits Overmars
22nd September 2016, 11:16
Wobbly, did you ever think or try to turn the exhaust duct 'upside down'? Now I think it could be better for flow, especially blow-down. I mean with a 'hollow' underside, like an original ROTAX has. And the same restricted duct size as we use now, filling in the top side. So keeping the same volume and port size.
And Frits, what do you think?What do I think? I built it; behold my hollow underside :D. And at last there is progression, as Harm van Gaalen is now preparing an engine with a 50 cc FOS cylinder.

324609 324610 324608

SwePatrick
22nd September 2016, 18:09
Would it not be better to inject the nitrous directly into the crankcase?
Has anyone tried this?

On a twostroke i would say yes!
Once you trapped the air engine draws in and start building pressure, you add pressure with nitrous injection.
And get very very good mixture as nitrousbeam will blend it all up.
And a huge tempdecrease as nitrous shots get very cold.
This will also increase 'VE' on the twostroke, works a bit like an intercooler.

On foulstroke it would be a disaster ;)

breezy
22nd September 2016, 21:12
this is an open question to the forum,if there were no end gases, would this eliminate detonation? if you were able to ignite end gases within the squish area first then send multiple flame fronts out of the squish area into the fuel air mixture held in the combustion chamber rather than from a single spark from the traditional plug position, would this help, or would end gases still form else where ?

oldjohnno
23rd September 2016, 00:09
this is an open question to the forum,if there were no end gases, would this eliminate detonation? if you were able to ignite end gases within the squish area first then send multiple flame fronts out of the squish area into the fuel air mixture held in the combustion chamber rather than from a single spark from the traditional plug position, would this help, or would end gases still form else where ?

I think it might just be a matter of nomenclature - if you were to ignite the outer ring of gases first then these would no longer be the end gases. That title would now belong to the contents of the chamber bowl, and I guess that as they are now subjected to the heat and pressure of the surrounding burn then they would be pushed towards detonation, just as the outer ring of gas was when the roles were reversed. There'd also be the effect of quench on the part of the charge that you're trying to light and I assume that this would lengthen the total burn time.

'Course I've been wrong a few thousand times before...

ken seeber
23rd September 2016, 00:49
But Jan has also stated that the optimum down angle of the roof he tested was 25*.
Maybe increasing this,along with lowering the floor at the port exit could be "better ".
Maybe I can get to try this idea with Franco at TM - the roof change would be easily done by scraping the core,but a hollow floor
would need a CAD change, not as easy.
Fear not, I want to do it.

Haveth no fear Wob. Just as you can rub the core (ie remove sand = more metal) you can just/nearly as easily add sand and remove metal for the floor. The foundry guys can easily add sand to the core, whether it be CO2 or shell core. Just lump on the extra sand and either gas it more or rebake, even with a gas torch. Would take some hand finishing, and possible some core coat to get a decent finish, but for a one off, you'd be in there with a die grinder anyway. Might have to also rub the water jacket core to clear the lump though. If it works, then Solidworks.

ief
23rd September 2016, 01:51
Oke, this is on the other end of the spectrum but I guess that shouldn't mather, it's doing me head in just the same :wacko:

Starting out with a highly undertuned 2 stroke, went on my way and (asumingly) improved the intake side, carb, intake, piston and inflow of the transfers and polished the exhaust. In other words, not much.

Now the problem arose that it starts to 'grind' at peak (sounds unhealthy and feels like the engine is working against itself.)

My assumption is/ was that peak pressure on the piston was to early due to to hot temp (???)

I' have tried, jetting, different head (less comp), different exhausts and now finally gave it some more blowdown area.

Still there, it changes from where it is rev wise and how severe but...

It seems to go away when the weather is colder, that is none conclusive but think that's the case.

Now I'm wondering, could it be due to something mechanical? (thinking piston clearance?)

Does that make sense?

adegnes
23rd September 2016, 04:58
Oke, this is on the other end of the spectrum but I guess that shouldn't mather, it's doing me head in just the same :wacko:

Starting out with a highly undertuned 2 stroke, went on my way and (asumingly) improved the intake side, carb, intake, piston and inflow of the transfers and polished the exhaust. In other words, not much.

Now the problem arose that it starts to 'grind' at peak (sounds unhealthy and feels like the engine is working against itself.)

My assumption is/ was that peak pressure on the piston was to early due to to hot temp (???)

I' have tried, jetting, different head (less comp), different exhausts and now finally gave it some more blowdown area.

Still there, it changes from where it is rev wise and how severe but...

It seems to go away when the weather is colder, that is none conclusive but think that's the case.

Now I'm wondering, could it be due to something mechanical? (thinking piston clearance?)

Does that make sense?

Could you make a video of the behavior and upload it to YouTube or similar?

ief
23rd September 2016, 05:56
Not in a way that would be helpfull I'm afraid.

But anyone who has had it will know what I mean by 'grinding' really can't find a better word for it, not even in dutch, haha.

You feel the bike start vibrating a litlle more, engine sound changes, power doesn't seem to be affected much (seat of pants) but it runs, feels and sounds 'raw/ rough' sometimes it spans 500 revs, sometimes 1000, given setup and I think more importantly, weather condition or a combination of those 2.

I thought perhaps to big a piston clearance might 'emphasize' the problem (not the word I'm looking for)

F5 Dave
23rd September 2016, 07:15
Replace the clapped out engine mount rubbers.

ief
23rd September 2016, 07:40
If it had any ;)

wobbly
23rd September 2016, 07:47
IEF, sounds just like the onset of deto.
Bolt a Bosch sensor to the head and fit a flashy lighty thing.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Knock-gauge-for-detonation-sensor-klopfsensor-NEW-with-output-/182186510011

Re removing the end gases to stop deto, thats exactly what the italian kart engine makers do.
They have a tiny width of highly divergent angle in the head - so no trapping = no deto.
The real problem though is the straight line ignition, the engine simply doesnt need extra combustion turbulence induced by squish velocity
to increase the burn speed, as there is way too much advance anyway.
But there is a way to fix the issue, and it will be the first dyno run I do at TM when I arrive - if I ever get there, as American Airlines have cancelled a flight due to an A380
not being delivered in time.

breezy
23rd September 2016, 16:23
IEF, sounds just like the onset of deto.
Bolt a Bosch sensor to the head and fit a flashy lighty thing.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Knock-gauge-for-detonation-sensor-klopfsensor-NEW-with-output-/182186510011

Re removing the end gases to stop deto, thats exactly what the italian kart engine makers do.
They have a tiny width of highly divergent angle in the head - so no trapping = no deto.
The real problem though is the straight line ignition, the engine simply doesnt need extra combustion turbulence induced by squish velocity
to increase the burn speed, as there is way too much advance anyway.
But there is a way to fix the issue, and it will be the first dyno run I do at TM when I arrive - if I ever get there, as American Airlines have cancelled a flight due to an A380
not being delivered in time.

i was thinking of electrically isolating the cylinder head from the barrel (anode) and the piston being the cathode and the squish gap being the electrode gap.... suppose spark errosion of an" alloy" piston could be a problem:sherlock:

Frits Overmars
23rd September 2016, 21:43
i was thinking of electrically isolating the cylinder head from the barrel (anode) and the piston being the cathode and the squish gap being the electrode gap.... suppose spark errosion of an" alloy" piston could be a problem:sherlock:SAAB tried something like that, combining a spark plug without earth strap with a spike on the piston.
But never mind the electro-erosion of the piston; think of the current's path through the con rod bearings!

TZ350
23rd September 2016, 22:32
But anyone who has had it will know what I mean by 'grinding' really can't find a better word for it, not even in dutch, haha.

I thought perhaps to big a piston clearance might 'emphasize' the problem (not the word I'm looking for)

Try ... "exacerbate the problem". I know what you mean, when it runs sweet it is really sweet then there is a hint of rough, not so sweet but still good and changes make it feel/seem rougher, harsher but it still pulls good numbers on the dyno .... :scratch:

TZ350
23rd September 2016, 22:40
Tz , what kind of radiator are You using and did You measured the water temp?

Not sure, but I think the radiator was from a hot sports 250 4T road bike, anyway it was $20 on TradeMe. Water temp around 45 deg C. I have to be careful to not have the dyno fans blow directly onto the radiator. The water pump is a 25 L/min unit and the bike dynos at about 27 rwhp.

The head temperature as measured under the plug and goes from 37 deg C with the fans full on to 67 deg C no fans. My air cooler ran 90+ deg C with the fans on.

TZ350
23rd September 2016, 23:07
Changed the rotary valve, didn't carefully check the timing but estimate it to be, opens 140 btdc closes 70 atdc. I will have to put a timing wheel on it but I expect the numbers are in the ballpark.

Tried a thinner disk too, as the old one had minimal clearance and was showing signs of rubbing. Also tried running with a carb, one that had worked well for me on the air cooler. I expected more power because the RV was not so tight in the case and as well I had pulled 32 rwhp on the air cooler with this carb before so was expecting some improvement over the water coolers 27.

The results were very disappointing, this was my favorite carb and I could not get it dialled in and it ran like a bag of pooo, down on power and rat shit everywhere. Ugly, ugly looking curves and it even had the dreaded top end flat spot I was getting with the fuel injection. Also the gearbox oil pump had stopped working and I had started to burn the clutch.

Time to carefully look at, and measure everything.

Tim Ey
23rd September 2016, 23:50
@ief:
You are not running a mechanical ignition, or? Got the same "grinding" on my Zündapp C50 when the contact is comming to its resonant frequency :wacko:

ief
24th September 2016, 01:34
Try ... "exacerbate the problem". I know what you mean, when it runs sweet it is really sweet then there is a hint of rough, not so sweet but still good and changes make it feel/seem rougher, harsher but it still pulls good numbers on the dyno .... :scratch:

That's the one :)

Tim Ey
@ief:
You are not running a mechanical ignition, or? Got the same "grinding" on my Zündapp C50 when the contact is comming to its resonant frequency

No, it's electronic.

If it would be onset of deto I presume it would change (more) then it does with:

Colder plug
98 vs 95 ?
10cc vs 6,5 cc head (slightly better)
Exhaust with bigger stinger

It's just wierd, also, I have another engine, different setup witch does (depending on jetting) detonate as far as I know and it doesn't feel anything like it, perhaps logical, dunno...

More headscratching then, knock sensor has to wait although I found some simple schematics.

breezy
24th September 2016, 18:30
SAAB tried something like that, combining a spark plug without earth strap with a spike on the piston.
But never mind the electro-erosion of the piston; think of the currents path through the con rod bearings!

Mmmm... electricity always follows the path of least resistance.. trying to escape through the rings/piston skirt/barrel wouldn’t probably be best. But perhaps stitching insulated electrode wires in and out around the squish band area would be possible. wonder how much heat shellacked wire can stand?

JanBros
24th September 2016, 19:59
Mmmm... electricity always follows the path of least resistance.. trying to escape through the rings/piston skirt/barrel wouldn’t probably be best. But perhaps stitching insulated electrode wires in and out around the squish band area would be possible. wonder how much heat shellacked wire can stand?

I think it would take you too far from "KISS" :msn-wink:

Neal
25th September 2016, 01:56
IEF, sounds just like the onset of deto.
Bolt a Bosch sensor to the head and fit a flashy lighty thing.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Knock-gauge-for-detonation-sensor-klopfsensor-NEW-with-output-/182186510011
.

Can anyone comment on these detonation sensors and lights , do I just wire it up and go race or do I have to tune the system ?
If I have to tune it , how do I know if I am heading in the correct direction ?

Thank you

oldjohnno
25th September 2016, 10:43
SAAB tried something like that, combining a spark plug without earth strap with a spike on the piston.
But never mind the electro-erosion of the piston; think of the current's path through the con rod bearings!

SAAB and their fancy-pants electric ignitions.... I use a cigarette lighter flint attached to the piston top that strikes a set screw projecting down from the centre of the head. Screwing it down advances the timing. If only I could work out how to shut it off...

wobbly
25th September 2016, 11:20
Setting the deto sensitivity is easy.
Keep winding up the adjuster so that under full load ( run rich ) the green lights are on and the small red lights flicker.
Deto is a very definite step up from there, and then makes the big red light flash.

Neal
25th September 2016, 23:49
Setting the deto sensitivity is easy.
Keep winding up the adjuster so that under full load ( run rich ) the green lights are on and the small red lights flicker.
Deto is a very definite step up from there, and then makes the big red light flash.

Thank you for the advise , just ordered a sensor so will get the lights ASAP

TZ350
28th September 2016, 16:34
.

Mr Bigglesworth is being obstinate and persists with his old trick of not coming back on the throttle after shutting of for a corner.

I wanted to know if there was some problem with the EFI mapping at 12,000 rpm and so in 2nd gear and 10% throttle I let the rpm slowly build up. When it got to 12,000 rpm it would throttle easily, I could blip the throttle from closed to anywhere to my hearts content. But when I gave it a full throttle run to 12,000 rpm it pulled Ok but would not throttle from less than 50% and if I closed the throttle to anything less it would completely die until the revs had dropped back to 8,000 or so. Strangely it was similar but a less pronounced problem when I tried it with the carb.

The EGT sensor reading seems to track quite well so I did a series of runs at 15% throttle position and progressively rich-end up the map. I did runs 4 - 6 - 8 in steps on up to 40. 40 is 10 times richer than the 10% TPs run that throttled well after slowly building up to 12,000 rpm.

324766

EGT chart of runs to 12,000+ rpm done with =<10% throttle position and increasing Map richness. As you would expect, the richer the Map setting the cooler the run started. I would have expected the lines to have been horizontal but the interesting thing is the lines tended to converge around 1200 - 1100 deg F no matter how rich the mixture was.

I would have thought changes in EGT are a reasonable indication of changes in air/fuel ratio so it makes no sense that a mixture 10 times richer finishes up nearly the same EGT at 12,000 rpm as one that has a more horizontal EGT line from the beginning.

The lines should have been horizontal, so why are they converging and 10 times richer and still running is ridiculous and running better and better as the rpm increases is even more ridiculous.

So what is going on ..... :confused: ... and is it a useful clue to Mr Bigglesworth's intransigence. ??? suggestion are welcome.

speedpro
28th September 2016, 17:57
Is fuel pressure falling off? If so it wouldn't matter how much fuel you configured in the table, to a point. Or the obvious, you aren't running out of injector duration? Have you tried BIG injectors with a suitable reduction in on-time? The Ecotrons adjusts duration to compensate for the larger injectors but if you have maxed out the smaller ones duration wise, the bigger ones will allow more fuel. It sounds like something is at max

wobbly
28th September 2016, 18:04
My first reaction is that as you approach 12,000 the map has less and less affect.
That is there is some other variable that is controlling the A/F mixture ratio as you increase the revs closer to peak fuel " need ".
I dont know, could be anything, injector flow capability, pump flow capability are but two possibilities.
As you say, increasing the map to change the injection rate by a set % should affect the egt across the entire range.
But its not as you approach peak demand, so that means the injector on time has increasingly less relevance - something else is controlling the fuel delivery.

TZ350
28th September 2016, 20:03
Is fuel pressure falling off? If so it wouldn't matter how much fuel you configured in the table, to a point. Or the obvious, you aren't running out of injector duration? Have you tried BIG injectors with a suitable reduction in on-time? The Ecotrons adjusts duration to compensate for the larger injectors but if you have maxed out the smaller ones duration wise, the bigger ones will allow more fuel. It sounds like something is at max

There is an onboard pressure gauge, pressure is good, 3 Bar. Two stage injectors, plenty of injection capacity. But I expect you are right, something is maxing out. Richban suggests there might be an obscure un-ticked box.


My first reaction is that as you approach 12,000 the map has less and less affect.

That is there is some other variable that is controlling the A/F mixture ratio as you increase the revs closer to peak fuel " need ". I don't know, could be anything, injector flow capability, pump flow capability are but two possibilities.

As you say, increasing the map to change the injection rate by a set % should affect the egt across the entire range.
But its not as you approach peak demand, so that means the injector on time has increasingly less relevance - something else is controlling the fuel delivery.

"Something else is controlling the fuel delivery" yes looks like something else other than the main Map is getting involved in controlling the fueling too.

speedpro
28th September 2016, 20:37
What about using the system fuel multiplier. I think there is a parameter you typically use when first trying to get an engine going with FI where you can increase/decrease fuel in large doses by simply multiplying everything by say 1.2, for instance

speedpro
28th September 2016, 20:45
Global Fuel Enrichment Factor

F5 Dave
28th September 2016, 20:50
Presumably you can calibrate the tps, it isn't inversed or ssomething dopey?

Have you tried running the carb lean and augmenting it with the injection? Just to see if you can run it right?

And of course after such major bottomend ssurgery you have done a leakdown test?

husaberg
28th September 2016, 20:52
.

Mr Bigglesworth is being obstinate and persists with his old trick of not coming back on the throttle after shutting of for a corner.

.

To me this bit, sounds like Unburnt fuel.
It take a bit of time to clear.
the Cagiva 500IE was never able to dial it out.
Pumper carbs do the same thing as they keep on pumping where the throttle is open or closed.
This can be dialed out with a bleed and a one way valve, i sent you a handwritten explanation that jennings did on the Bridgestone about 5 years ago.
Try doing you run but not shutting off completely or blipping throttle.
Can the injection be set up for auto blip in conjuction with the ignitech and a servo?

Frits Overmars
28th September 2016, 21:24
Just guessing: each time an injector opens, the fuel in the line to the injector has to be accelerated from zero to the required flow velocity. The higher this required velocity, the more severe will be the pressure drop over this fuel line, with the injector seeing less and less pressure. Maybe this is the maxing-out factor.
If so, a large-diameter fuel rail directly in front of the injector and fitting the pressure regulator and pressure gauge on this fuel rail may help.

Repeated warning: the EGT drops when detonation sets in. Then if your MCU tries to counteract the dropping EGT by reducing the injection duration, things may get out of hand very quickly.

adegnes
29th September 2016, 04:27
something else is controlling the fuel delivery.

You can only mix and match pieces from various bikes for so long without stumbling upon a haunted part.
Naming your bike "The Beast" certainly doesn't help either.
What must not has happened, all you can do now is premix with holy water and pray.

Speaking of haunted; I might have gotten to the bottom of my carb (Oko pwk 24mm)problems: too high fuel level in the float bowl.

I've adjusted the float up and down before, but never far away from the "recommended" height. Since I could not find anything weird or wrong with my carb, and after testing with a brace to stiffen up the intake, weighting down the carb to reduce the resonance frequency and even holding it in my hand during a run to dampen vibration gave no results, I felt I had to get a closer look at what was going on in there.
Bought a translucent float bowl(red was the only color in stock). With the float set at the "recommended" height(parallel to the gasket surface) fuel level is above the bowl gasket face, by how much I don't know, but this has to be a problem cause the overflow tube juste barely protrudes over it, and must be very close to being submerged.

Lowered the float (ALOT) until I got a level I think is reasonable and should work. (purple line).

324773

Maybe my Oko has a denser than normal float or something.

Haven't had the time to test it yet, but hopefully my success story writeup is coming soon...

peewee
29th September 2016, 07:05
isnt oko a chinese copy of keihin? i never dared to try one

adegnes
29th September 2016, 07:46
isnt oko a chinese copy of keihin? i never dared to try one

Sort of, actually the "genuine" Oko's are made in Taiwan, and considered to be of ok quality. The market is flooded with copies of the copies or fake copies or whatever you want to call it. You can easily end up with something real shitty.

Your mileage may vary I suppose.

Mine ticks all the boxes for a true genuine copy, but you never know.

wobbly
29th September 2016, 08:39
The OKO copies seem to work just fine, they have been doing it for ages and just shows what the price of a Keihin should be
as they are made " just down the road " form the OKO plant anyway.
I machined the bore of one the other day, and the material was really nice with no inclusions or rubbish in the casting at all.
Same with Brembo brake copies. I bought a rear caliper for $60 with free shipping,and once I changed to SBS pads it has worked perfectly for 3 seasons
racing.
The real deal cost upward of $400 and as far as anyone is concerned it really is a Brembo.
Those old jokes about coke cans being used to make castings are wearing a bit thin these days, as the vast majority of machine tools used to make parts in the West have been made in Taiwan
for over 30 years.
Where do Brembo get off trying to charge $1K for a MotoGP 19RCS " forged " master cylinder when one that actually has been " forged " cost less than $100.

TZ350
29th September 2016, 09:39
Lowered the float (ALOT) until I got a level I think is reasonable and should work. (purple line).

324773


We have used a lot of 24mm OKO carbs and use a clear float bowl to set the fuel height, pretty much where your blue line is. One benefit of the clear float bowl is that you can see air bubbles in the fuel if there is a leak where the central jet holder is attached to the carb body with two screws, we had a leaky O ring there and now glue over that area as a matter of course. The OKO carb bodies machine very well, love working with them. And there is a whole thread someplace that talks about how to tell a genuine OKO from a Chinese look a like.


320733 Genuine Taiwanese OKO's have the Taiwanese flag on the top right of the box, Chinese knock off's don't.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/178282-OKO-Carbs

F5 Dave
29th September 2016, 12:11
The float valves are a bit sub average and spent too much time dikn around trying to fix other people's oko carbs. Always run Keihin and never had same issue. But they are still sensitive to float height.

adegnes
29th September 2016, 16:31
We have used a lot of 24mm OKO carbs and use a clear float bowl to set the fuel height, pretty much where your blue line is. One benefit of the clear float bowl is that you can see air bubbles in the fuel if there is a leak where the central jet holder is attached to the carb body with two screws, we had a leaky O ring there and now glue over that area as a matter of course. The OKO carb bodies machine very well, love working with them. And there is a whole thread someplace that talks about how to tell a genuine OKO from a Chinese look a like.



http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/178282-OKO-Carbs

My box had the flag. Yes, I'm a winner!

Tim Ey
29th September 2016, 19:41
The float valves are a bit sub average and spent too much time dikn around trying to fix other people's oko carbs. Always run Keihin and never had same issue. But they are still sensitive to float height.

When you need a PWK carb smaller than 28mm there is not much of a choice than to buy copycarbs.
But after fiddling around with a lot of shitty copies (Stage6, Koso, fake Keihins) the black Okos with the polished bellmouth are the first ones working like the original keihins.

timg
29th September 2016, 21:16
I get my Oko stuff from here http://www.oko-australia.com.au always been good so far...

F5 Dave
30th September 2016, 12:07
Must be hugely frustrating for oko when they spend all that time and effort stealing someone's design and start earning money from it that some unscrupulous buggers copy the idea.

More karma than irony. Alanis Morissette wasn't available for comment. Fortunately, as I have some reserves of her mastery of the concept.

peewee
30th September 2016, 13:07
atleast you didnt win the lottery and die the next day :laugh:

F5 Dave
30th September 2016, 21:02
That would only be ironic if you'd bet that you wouldn't.

breezy
30th September 2016, 23:39
Frits,

are you still held to any secrecy law regarding a new type of 2 stroke engine ?

Frits Overmars
1st October 2016, 01:28
Frits, are you still held to any secrecy law regarding a new type of 2 stroke engine ?Non-Diclosure Agreements don't go away easily, Breezy. They stipulate two involved parties and a period of time, usually several years. And they stay in force as long as both parties exist. I would have to die in order to get out of an NDA and I'm not prepared to go that far. Or I could shoot the other party, but that might have consequences as well.

jasonu
1st October 2016, 06:04
That would only be ironic if you'd bet that you wouldn't.

The less you bet the more you loose when you win.

breezy
1st October 2016, 06:49
Non-Diclosure Agreements don't go away easily, Breezy. They stipulate two involved parties and a period of time, usually several years. And they stay in force as long as both parties exist. I would have to die in order to get out of an NDA and I'm not prepared to go that far. Or I could shoot the other party, but that might have consequences as well.

ok.. thanks for reply.. but you just got to ask.. not a case of " walk and dont look back", then:laugh:

chrisc
1st October 2016, 10:07
Ryger dealer, O.W. Karting: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010751910350

324834

Frits Overmars
1st October 2016, 23:11
ok.. thanks for reply.. but you just got to ask.. not a case of " walk and dont look back", then:laugh:The prototype I drove still deserves attention. As for the organisation around it... :facepalm:.

Haufen
2nd October 2016, 03:48
Just stumbled upon a measurement aid I made a while ago.
Just print, fold, cut and compare to the mold when it leans flat against the piston. The numbers are in degrees from horizontal. Combine 2 of these for boost port measurements.

324837

PDF file:
324836

(the angle of the port in the picture is not exactly 15 degrees, but not 20 either)
Let me know if you should not be able to download the PDF file, it shows as a black rectangle in the preview but can be downloaded by clicking on it.

TZ350
2nd October 2016, 09:07
Looks Good ..... :niceone:

wobbly
2nd October 2016, 09:31
You cant show a piston with a pin plug and not have me ask what, where, who, how much.

peewee
2nd October 2016, 12:06
hey guys I still been poking away at this thing as time allows. got one half done and hope to finish the other half in the next couple days. im fairly happy with how it turned out, considering what I started with. increased the window area quit a bit and added some nice tea cups. the rear stud area is pretty thin but I have a idea to possibly gain some more window area on C, but ill have more details about this question later today or tomorrow. of course I want to run this idea/question by wobbly, frits and some of you other guys first before I start grinding. any ways heres what I ended up with

from left to right. A,B,C

Lightbulb
2nd October 2016, 12:31
Well, we have embarked on trying to learn more about the 2.5 cc speed glow plug engines and making data acquisition board small enough to fit in the model plane as well as transit in real time to a cell phone the info. I have made a newer version of our egt thermocouple, and have a thermistor for head temp and using an accelerometer to get both engine rpm and model speed when it flies.
Still have to get the data board re programmed to output the average rpm to +- 50 rpm. Currently it's still at +- 120 rpm.
We are seeing with the 2011 engine the egt is about 480 C to 490C or so when it is running at what we think is right. When it runs lean it goes to 518C and the glow plug has failed at that point. It is good that the new thermocouple is still showing the same temp values as the prototype thermocouple that had failed after only 4 runs or so. The head temp is about 140C to 160C as it leans out, the head temp goes up really fast to over 200C and more. The thermistor we are using is really not rated for the higher values so are getting a higher temp rated thermistor. We were not expecting to see temps over 200C Attached is pictures of the egt test set up.
The latest we have done is to make a spark and record that sound in the pipe to see what the wave form looks like. We have seen that some pipes have 6 major harmonics and others have 8 major harmonics or more. So 2 pipes that looked the same showed quite a different frequency response. The slow pipes showed a frequency response that would equate to the engine running at 38400 rpm, which is what it does on the 2011 engine. The other pipe that showed a frequency response that would equate to the engine running at 39400 rpm . And that is what the 2011 engine does with that pipe. It was good to see that we could identify the slow pipe to the normal pipe. The faster pipe showed a frequency response to that of 40k rpm and that pipe has a very different frequency response signature to all the other pipes. It is also the most beat up junk looking pipe we have, but does perform the best on the engine.
I have attached some pictures of the best performing pipe and the std good looking pipe.The graphs of the pipes shown is Comparing Two Pipes.jpg There is also a graph of the pipes for the N40 F3D engine. Red Standard Blue Flat.jpg is the frequency response of these pipes, a standard pipe and the same pipe with a flat on the tailcone. The other graph of the F3D pipes is Green-Std Magenta-flat red-blue flat-muffler.jpg, this is the overlay of standard pipe, the pipe with a flat , and the pipe with a flat with the now mandatory muffler. Not entirely sure of what we are learning from this, but it is early days in this testing and analysis.

wobbly
2nd October 2016, 12:32
One small detail everyone seems to forget.

Lightbulb
2nd October 2016, 12:32
the other egt test pictures F2lemetry is what we see on the cell phone screen in real time from Carl's Data board that will be in the model plane.

chrisc
2nd October 2016, 19:12
You cant show a piston with a pin plug and not have me ask what, where, who, how much.

This^ !!!!!!!

breezy
2nd October 2016, 20:36
the other egt test pictures F2lemetry is what we see on the cell phone screen in real time from Carl's Data board that will be in the model plane.

Looks like you will be able to predict best full load running scenario with real time acquired data, giving you a major "hit the ground running" advantage over other set ups... got to be highly sort after:first::first::first:

Frits Overmars
2nd October 2016, 21:27
the rear stud area is pretty thinYou can say that again Peewee. You could add material to the cylinder, pulling the rear stud tunnels higher up, but you could also avoid the welding job and put a girdle on the head instead, like this.
324871

DaisyB
3rd October 2016, 05:41
To me this bit, sounds like Unburnt fuel.
It take a bit of time to clear.
the Cagiva 500IE was never able to dial it out.
Pumper carbs do the same thing as they keep on pumping where the throttle is open or closed.
This can be dialed out with a bleed and a one way valve, i sent you a handwritten explanation that jennings did on the Bridgestone about 5 years ago.
Try doing you run but not shutting off completely or blipping throttle.
Can the injection be set up for auto blip in conjuction with the ignitech and a servo?

Could you explain how to do this on the pumper carbs? Having a fun time trying to dial out the over-run richness - at least it's on a combo, so when it does clear and spin the rear wheel we don't fall off!

TZ350
3rd October 2016, 06:22
Page 1580 links list to go here ......


325251

One small detail everyone seems to forget.


Hello,

You will find hereafter some informations about THE Rotax 256.
The valve diameter is 124 mm
There is two kind of valve: Cutaway opening 162 ° or 170 °

Road Racer inlet opens 136 BTDC / closes 85 ATDC and Kart inlet opens 136 BTDC / closes 80 ATDC


324906

324904

324905

Regards.

Francis.


Could and/or would someone please tell me how the wall temps are used in the EngMod2T simulator?

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=5056 (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=5056)


The wall temp is an average over the pipe length, and sets what wave speed is used by the sim for each calculation step. It also sets the energy loss from the gas to ambient air.

For tuned engines 125 to 350 cylinder size with fat pipes I have found 325 at the bottom of the power band and 425 at peak is very accurate.

This was found empirically,by experiment, and checked along several pipe lengths on a Dynojet with varying air speed over the bike front using a laser gun.

I don't know about smaller engines that would have a proportionally larger pipe wall area/displacement coefficient.

The real deal, a performance 2T Two Stroke successfully running an electronic fuel injection system.


E85 at work


https://youtu.be/CnIemdISKrM

Kawasaki F86M BigHorn 350cc Air Cooled, E85 and Fuel Injected .......

325137


Here is the EFI at work.


http://youtu.be/ifSEql1X4R0

325138

F86M dyno graph.

wobbly
3rd October 2016, 10:49
With a pumper if you have over run richness, then the pop-off is too low and or the lever height is too high.

husaberg
3rd October 2016, 15:42
Could you explain how to do this on the pumper carbs? Having a fun time trying to dial out the over-run richness - at least it's on a combo, so when it does clear and spin the rear wheel we don't fall off!


(Later)Edit here it is it is on the Net. I peiced it together, the stuff with the overrun.
Wob might have some other solutions.
This one only deals with overun continued pumping on McCollouch carbs

Click on it 3 times
324878
Actually the whole series is worth a read.


Jennings
Basically, the problem there was that every time I closed the throttle the crankcases filled with gasoline, and there was a long pause after reopening the throttle before anything happened. And then the engine would catch and make a mighty lunge—which always seemed bent on carrying the motorcycle right off the track.
I cured the carburettor flooding by following John Brooks’ suggestions and drilling a.037-inch hole to connect the metering pressure feed from the crankcase to the carburettor throat behind the throttle butterfly. This uses the vacuum behind the throttle to damp out crankcase pulses that would otherwise maintain pressure under the metering diaphragm and keeps fuel dribbling out of the main nozzle at idle. I also plugged the idle mixture hold behind the butterfly—which meant that the engine wouldn’t idle—but that isn’t of any great importance in racing. The similar mixture hole just in front of the butterfly I left open, as it is needed to feed the engine at low throttle openings.
A tuning session at our local drag strip showed that the revised carburettors were an improvement, having much better throttle response and no tendency to flood when the throttles were closed. We also found that the mixture curve was wrong and was going a bit lean above 9000 rpm. To counter it with the McCulloch carburettor, you enlarge the main vent that bleeds under the metering diaphragm. Once done, you must also open the adjustable main jet a tad, but it does lift the top end of the mixture curve. I can’t tell you how much larger you should drill the vent. I overdid it on the first try, and then had to open the pressure feed hole into the chamber to compensate-which I also overdid—and was forced to drill the vent even larger. Anyone else going through the same process should first obtain all available small-numbered and lettered drills and proceed with great caution. The difference in mixture, with a very small change in air-orifice diameter, is surprisingly large. By the time I had learned this lesson, all of the drillings in my carburettors were too large, and although they were working fairly well, a less drastic series of passes with a drill would have been better, I am sure. Sometimes there is more learned in failure than in success. With my Bridgestone 350GTR racer project (a racing failure if ever there was one) I learned several things: that a conventional battery/coil ignition system is inadequate to the needs of a racing two-stroke engine—Which should be fed oil in a proportion of about 1:12 with its gas; and that the McCulloch carburettor does offer significant advantages in this kind of application, but that it is necessary to do a great deal of work with its fuel delivery system, and even more work with the metering system’s air bleeds. These carburettors work exceedingly Well in the low and mid-speed ranges, but have an inherent tendency to go lean at maximum rev’s and this must be compensated. I have not yet succeeded in this; the modifications made have improved things, but the mixture is still slightly over-rich at 6000 rpm (and downright sooty below that speed) while a shade lean up at 9000 and above.

http://www.bridgestonemotorcycle.com/documents/SonOfSecretWeapon.pdf
Part 2 to be added later

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/Bridgestone/SonOfSecretWeaponPart3.pdf

Plus another period one for giggles
http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/Bridgestone/MSQFall1971Bridgestone350Racer.pdf

Special Thanks to Michael Moore

Haufen
3rd October 2016, 20:45
You cant show a piston with a pin plug and not have me ask what, where, who, how much.


This^ !!!!!!!

The picture shows a 2011 APF piston, main transfer mold and piston pin. The pin is closed, although there is still a little room for bypass flow. Seems like this kind of pin was found to be "good enough" at some stage. The pin should be available from service aprilia (https://service.piaggiogroup.com/public/racing/), I do not know the price.

But for sure it would be nice doing a head to head comparison with a hollow pin on a kart engine.

Edit: spinotto is italian for piston pin

DaisyB
4th October 2016, 05:39
Thanks Wob, will try that, back on the dyno in a couple of weeks.
Thanks Husaberg, will read it all!

JanBros
4th October 2016, 10:19
http://rygerengine.com/

jfn2
4th October 2016, 13:05
Could and/or would someone please tell me how the wall temps are used in the simulator? I was asked this when I tried to order a pipe wall surface sensor for the data collector I'm using. I could not answer him.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=5056

wobbly
4th October 2016, 15:00
The wall temp is an average over the pipe length, and sets what wave speed is used by the sim for each calculation step.
It also sets the energy loss from the gas to ambient air.
For tuned engines 125 to 350 cylinder size with fat pipes I have found 325 at the bottom of the power band and 425 at peak
is very accurate.
This was found empirically,by experiment, and checked along several pipe lengths on a Dynojet with varying air speed over the bike front
using a laser gun.
I dont know about smaller engines that would have a proportionally larger pipe wall area/displacement coefficient.

peewee
4th October 2016, 16:46
what material do you guys use for the gasket between cylinder and exh manifold ? i need to make that gasket . thought of buying a automobile header gasket then cut it to suit but maybe theres something easier

jasonu
5th October 2016, 05:05
what material do you guys use for the gasket between cylinder and exh manifold ? i need to make that gasket . thought of buying a automobile header gasket then cut it to suit but maybe theres something easier

My RG400 cylinder had a deep recess with a wide flat for the header to sit on. Right or wrong I used high temp silicone to seal it. Being a race bike that joint was always being pulled apart and I never noticed the silicon failing.

Muciek
5th October 2016, 06:18
Question about Rotax 256 twin or 128 single, does anyone know what was the rotary valve diameter and the "width" in degrees of the window in case? Thanks.

adegnes
5th October 2016, 09:05
The wall temp is an average over the pipe length, and sets what wave speed is used by the sim for each calculation step.
It also sets the energy loss from the gas to ambient air.
For tuned engines 125 to 350 cylinder size with fat pipes I have found 325 at the bottom of the power band and 425 at peak
is very accurate.
This was found empirically,by experiment, and checked along several pipe lengths on a Dynojet with varying air speed over the bike front
using a laser gun.
I dont know about smaller engines that would have a proportionally larger pipe wall area/displacement coefficient.

I plan to run my 50 on the roller again tomorrow, hopefully with the carburetion sorted. I'll take some pipe wall temp measurements and post them.

2T Institute
5th October 2016, 13:01
Question about Rotax 256 twin or 128 single, does anyone know what was the rotary valve diameter and the "width" in degrees of the window in case? Thanks.

I can answer tonight finding a pristine inlet port is a bit difficult these days ;) Recommended Rotax timing is 138/88

As yet I don't know why anyone would spend double the price of a TM KZ10C on a Ryger engine for half the performance

husaberg
5th October 2016, 18:03
Question about Rotax 256 twin or 128 single, does anyone know what was the rotary valve diameter and the "width" in degrees of the window in case? Thanks.

I have a feeling its in the bell book or maybe it was the 124? one of the ones were anyway.
You should be able to get pretty close by looking at the parts Fiche for the oring size.

fpayart
5th October 2016, 21:23
Hello,

You will find hereafter some informations about THE Rotax 256.
The valve diameter is 124 mm
There is two kind of valve: Opening 162 ° or 170 °

324906

324904

324905

Regards.

Francis.

Muciek
5th October 2016, 22:44
Francis Thank You very much, 2nd picture is exactly what I was looking for.

2T Institute
6th October 2016, 00:29
Hello,

You will find hereafter some informations about THE Rotax 256.
The valve diameter is 124 mm
There is two kind of valve: Opening 162 ° or 170 °

324906

324904

324905

Regards.

Francis.

Merci Francis I must have some untouched cases 34 high x 40 wide.:2thumbsup

Can you tell us what happened with the Aprilia RS 125/FPE project?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feFhdLe7oNI

_____
6th October 2016, 00:33
Hi Frits, Jan, Wobbly and everyone :-)

I got a question regarding discharge values:
Has anyone determined the cd values of exhaust ports? Similar like it was done to the QUB SAE-Paper
2003-32-0029.
Nevermind if CFD simulated or measured (and re calculated) on a flow bench.

If I remember correcty: Frits, you made the exhaust port of the F2 with an automatic cd-value controled CFD tool?!

@Jan, was CFD used to design the exhaust port of the RSA? I remember that I have read it was done with a flowbench?

Cheers and thanks
Chris

Frits Overmars
6th October 2016, 01:16
What is an F2?

_____
6th October 2016, 01:25
What is an F2?

Oh, sorry. My bad.
I must have remembered it wrong - thought this was the name of the outstanding glowplug plane engine you have designed?

Frits Overmars
6th October 2016, 01:56
Oh, sorry. My bad. I must have remembered it wrong - thought this was the name of the outstanding glowplug plane engine you have designed?You remembered it right; I did not remember it at all because it was 14 years ago but it has come back now. It was the Profi F2A. And I did not design that engine; I only did some ducting and piping for it, using a home-brewn CFD program. The F3D was the engine I did some more work on.

Re your question about the Cd values of exhaust ports: that would not be just a number, but a whole list per port with a CD-value for each crank degree.
I never tought my program to put out such a list; what I needed was mass flow behaviour and a points cloud describing the duct geometry.
Below you see the points cloud, the corresponding 3D-solid and the copper electrodes used to spark-erode the exhaust duct in the prototype F3D engine.
324908 324909 324910

Jan did flow tests stepping through the piston positions, using the contraption shown below.

jfn2
6th October 2016, 02:23
wobbly;
Thank you very much for the info on wall temps. Where on the pipe would be the best place to mount a single sensor or do you have to monitor different places and where would they be and how many? My data collector only has 4 temperature outputs. I am using one for egt, one for water temp, and one for cht leaving one more.

adegnes:
I'm looking forward to seeing your temp readings. Thanks

adegnes
6th October 2016, 04:52
adegnes:
I'm looking forward to seeing your temp readings. Thanks

I'm afraid you'll have to wait a bit longer for my numbers.
On the dyno the translucent float bowl revealed massive fuel foaming throughout the powerband, nothing but foam in the bowl.
Is vibration the only probable cause for this? I mean it's not that bad, I've experienced far worse without this foaming issue.
I also tried the added weight, the brace, and holding it with my hand again, now with the clear bowl, made no difference.

Running 98pump with 5% a747

wobbly
6th October 2016, 11:49
What you are after is the average temp of the pipe wall material.
You would need to measure the hottest ( at the header ) then the coldest ( in the mid ) - then it gets hotter again as you travel down the rear cone.
Problem is that there is far more area of cold surface in the middle, so sadly some fudge factor guesstimating is needed.

Re the foaming fuel bowl, as I said before the crank balance is wrong for this to even begin to happen at all.
Fuel tank anti surge foam would help in the bowl, but you need to fix the actual issue.
It sounds like some part of the out of balance force is combining with the 2x crank speed secondary vibration modes.

jfn2
6th October 2016, 12:31
Again thank you wobbly for the temp information. I suppose I could do with out the water temp sensor and run two surface temp sensors. I'll try it.

adegnes
7th October 2016, 02:15
Re the foaming fuel bowl, as I said before the crank balance is wrong for this to even begin to happen at all.
Fuel tank anti surge foam would help in the bowl, but you need to fix the actual issue.
It sounds like some part of the out of balance force is combining with the 2x crank speed secondary vibration modes.

Thanks, I'll have to read up on the subject.
Maybe the steel rotary valve is part of the problem? The crank itself has relatively low inertia, the variator too, and there's no flywheel.

FastFred
7th October 2016, 07:10
Thanks, I'll have to read up on the subject.


Describes how to find the reciprocating weight

Looking at the connecting rod it is easy to see that the Big End goes round and round and is all rotating mass. And the little end and piston goes up and down and is all reciprocating mass.


A simple but very effective jig for statically balancing a crank, that you can make yourself in 10min's.


The KISS method of balancing a single cylinder 2 or 4-stroke.

Its all in the pictures:-

Pic-1 Find the total reciprocating Weight (Mass)
Pic-2 Find the Little Ends reciprocating Weight (Mass)
Pic-3 Find the Balance Facter (Ie. 65% is 0.65 X the ToTal Reciprocating Weight (Mass))
Pic-4 Leave the Little Ends reciprocating Weight (Mass) on the Scales
Pic-5 Attach the rest to the crank.
Pic-6 Balance the Crank.

From Phill Irving. page 109 "the wheels will roll freely along the straight-edges and show no tendency to settle in any one position; if not, the pin will go to the top or bottom according to whether the Counter Balance is to heavy or to light. Correction is usually made by drilling the rims."



Measuring the balance factor of our Suzuki GP125,s
The round bar is very nearly as good as knife edges.
Pic-1 Finding the counter balance by hanging washers of a hook attached to the conrod.
Pic-2 Determining the mass "C" of the counter balance.
Pic-3 Determining the mass "R" of the reciprocating weight.
The balance factor B = C counter balance mass divided by R reciprocating mass.
The balance factor is.......B = C / R
As measured by me, it turns out that the balance factor of:-
A standard Suzuki GP125 is 69%
A Standard Suzuki GP100 is 76%
A GP with alloy plugs in the counter balance holes becomes 58% for the 100 and 52% for the 125.

When we recently dyno'ed two of our bikes with cranks that had the same 69% balance factors. The RS frame vibrated much more than the original GP frame did.

For us this supported the notion that there is no one correct balance factor, as the right balance factor is the one that works with the frame that the motor is mounted in.


............. A lot more info about single cylinder crank ballancing and "how too" pictures in the original posts

adegnes
7th October 2016, 07:59
............. A lot more info about single cylinder crank ballancing and "how too" pictures in the original posts

Thank you! But...
I did measure the balance factor earlier(following TZ's instructions), and raised it from below 25% to 38% - the highest I can get it without mallory slugs.


What I need to learn more about is the vibration modes, are we talking about torsional vibration here?

wobbly
7th October 2016, 08:45
You dont need to read anything, read my lips "if the cylinder is near vertical then you need a balance factor closer to 60% ".
What im saying is that your engine is currently so far wrong, of course it will froth the bowl, buzz your balls,and make your eyes drop out.
Any vertical single balanced to 40% is a complete waste of your time running it at all.
Low inertia of the crank/variator and no flywheel makes the situation WORSE, due to lack of mass damping.
Just buy the Mallory and get on with it - believe the people that have been there, done it, collected the $100 and didnt go to jail.

I recently tested a single kart engine on my dyno that was balanced at exactly 40%, it was impossible for me to hold the dyno throttle lever as it
hurt so much,it broke off the CHT/EGT leads, wreaked the dyno's digital speed pickup, and funnily enough - fuel spewed constantly from the overflows.
That engine wasn't considered seriously at all to be a replacement for our junior kart classes.

adegnes
7th October 2016, 08:57
You dont need to read anything, read my lips "if the cylinder is near vertical then you need a balance factor closer to 60% ".
What im saying is that your engine is currently so far wrong, of course it will froth the bowl, buzz your balls,and make your eyes drop out.
Any vertical single balanced to 40% is a complete waste of your time running it at all.
Just buy the Mallory and get on with it - believe the people that have been there, done it, collected the $100 and didnt go to jail.

Consider it done!

husaberg
7th October 2016, 17:16
Consider it done!

Ages ago (I think but could be wrong)either 2Tinsitute or Ken Seeber suggested a cheaper alternative for small quanities of a tunsten alloy.
it was on Ebay for these things
http://www.abc-pinewood-derby.com/weights.php
http://pinecar.woodlandscenics.com/show/Item/P3915/page/1
http://www.maximum-velocity.com/tungstencylinders.htm
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Incremental-Tungsten-Cylinder-Set-for-Pinewood-Derby-Car-Weight-2-25-oz-/322004729139

You could also check out your local angling/fishing store.

adegnes
7th October 2016, 17:28
Ages ago either 2Tinsitute or Ken Sebbler suggested a cheaper alternative for small quanities of a tunsten alloy.
it was on Ebay for these things
http://www.abc-pinewood-derby.com/weights.php
http://pinecar.woodlandscenics.com/show/Item/P3915/page/1
http://www.maximum-velocity.com/tungstencylinders.htm
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Incremental-Tungsten-Cylinder-Set-for-Pinewood-Derby-Car-Weight-2-25-oz-/322004729139

You could also check out your local angling/fishing store.

Thank you!

speedboy
7th October 2016, 20:55
With free shipping:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/New-10-x-50mm-1PC-99-95-Pure-Tungsten-W-Metal-Rod-High-Hardness-High-Tensile/32636629131.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.75.NZG2T1&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_1_10056_10 065_10068_10055_10054_112_10069_10059_110_111_1007 3_10017_109_10070_108_10060_10061_10052_10062_1005 3_10050_10051,searchweb201603_1&btsid=dbb0ec8c-b8b4-46d4-a33b-ab5af59265c8

adegnes
8th October 2016, 01:07
Low inertia of the crank/variator and no flywheel makes the situation WORSE, due to lack of mass damping.


This is exactly what I thought too. I also thought that the unbalance of the rotary valve could be of significance in an engine like mine with the low inertia crank and no flywheel.
I'll bring the balance factor up to 60% and hope that it isn't...

Thanks for all the help!

adegnes
8th October 2016, 01:08
With free shipping:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/New-10-x-50mm-1PC-99-95-Pure-Tungsten-W-Metal-Rod-High-Hardness-High-Tensile/32636629131.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.75.NZG2T1&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_1_10056_10 065_10068_10055_10054_112_10069_10059_110_111_1007 3_10017_109_10070_108_10060_10061_10052_10062_1005 3_10050_10051,searchweb201603_1&btsid=dbb0ec8c-b8b4-46d4-a33b-ab5af59265c8

Thanks for the link!

adegnes
8th October 2016, 08:31
Found this small program(sorry if it's been posted before) that can help with visualising how different balance factors affect the engine.

http://www.tonyfoale.com/index.html - choose freeware and balance factor analysis.


20% - Around where my crank was out of the box, vibrated alot!
324965

38% - current state, vibrates but better than 20%(but too much for the carb)
324966

60% - what Wobbly is suggesting, and by looking at the radar plot I think I understand why(maybe), it seems to be the most "balanced" option.
324967

80%
324968


One thing I noticed is that with "With secondaries" checked, 60% is what gives the lowest max force, not 50%.
Can someone explain what the "secondaries" are?

husaberg
8th October 2016, 09:07
One thing I noticed is that with "With secondaries" checked, 60% is what gives the lowest max force, not 50%.
Can someone explain what the "secondaries" are?
http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/EngineBalance/EngineBalance.pdf

n a single cylinder engine, the secondary forces provide us with a harder problem to solve. The concept of balance factor is applied to the crankshaft is not relevant in this case, because by definition, the secondary forces vibrate at twice the rate of the crankshaft rotation. We could add a balance shaft that rotates at twice the engine speed but that would only replace the in-line forces with lateral ones, as in the case of 100% balance factor with primary forces. However, if we used two counter-rotating balance shafts, geared so they ran at twice the speed of the crankshaft, then we could in fact, eliminate the secondary forces. As we shall see, four cylinder engines suffer badly from secondary forces
http://www.freestudy.co.uk/d225/t9.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bdc9CuBOzc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdHQ8aTfiQQ

adegnes
8th October 2016, 09:18
thank you great sir!

wobbly
8th October 2016, 11:18
Yes, if you do an an analysis of common bore/stroke/rod ratios the balance factor that minimizes overall force
transmitted from the crank to the frame is always overbalanced, centered around 60%.
This also helps the relatively smaller force generated at 90* by the rod mass acting at its C of G comprised of some of the reciprocating
mass opposing the added mass opposite the pin.
This is not always taken into consideration in some balance programs.

peewee
8th October 2016, 13:47
maybe its to soon to ask this question but what do you guys think of the new 250sx engine with counterbalancer used in ktm and Husqvarna motorcycles ? anyone got a peek inside to see whats different from previous generations ? im hoping theres plenty of potential for more power ? really the only info ive found is the generic stuff on the ktm and husky websites. was thinking of picking up the Husqvarna model but still undecided

Niels Abildgaard
9th October 2016, 04:31
The late MZ consumer bikes of DDR were not balanced for oscillating forces at all.
Engine/transmission block rear end was connected to frame via a steel-rubber bush that allowed rotation but not translation.
The front end that is cylinder crank and carb was alloved to go up and down antiphasing piston.
There is a very soft rubber block between cylinder head and the big single rectangular frame pipe.
I have driven a 300 ETZ for 80000 km at near max rpm and never had anything or myself being destroyed from vibration.
http://www.motorstown.com/images/mz-etz-251-07.jpg

Niels Abildgaard
9th October 2016, 04:40
Another source or heavy metals is a used/blunt carbide endmill.
Machine shops have them in kilograms and if they also have a wire EDM machine discs are nearly free.
Density is 14.6 gram per ccm.

adegnes
9th October 2016, 09:08
The late MZ consumer bikes of DDR were not balanced for oscillating forces at all.
Engine/transmission block rear end was connected to frame via a steel-rubber bush that allowed rotation but not translation.
The front end that is cylinder crank and carb was alloved to go up and down antiphasing piston.
There is a very soft rubber block between cylinder head and the big single rectangular frame pipe.
I have driven a 300 ETZ for 80000 km at near max rpm and never had anything or myself being destroyed from vibration.
http://www.motorstown.com/images/mz-etz-251-07.jpg

Interesting!
Sounds like quite a trip! :laugh:
Rubber mounts could help if it is still acting up after the rebalancing.


Another source or heavy metals is a used/blunt carbide endmill.
Machine shops have them in kilograms and if they also have a wire EDM machine discs are nearly free.
Density is 14.6 gram per ccm.

Thanks for the tip!

wobbly
9th October 2016, 09:58
With no attempt at cancelling the crank oscillating forces internally, then the cases/bearings are being severely hammered
even if it cant be felt by the rider due to some clever isolation techniques.

peewee
10th October 2016, 15:54
wob on the yami twins would I gain anything worth while if i reverse the water flow and take it from the rad to the top of the head at the front of the cylinder then weld on some spigots as low as I can at the cylinder rear just above the reed blocks ? this is how some of the older ktm water flowed. I could also weld up the rear water passage holes in the head so it forces it to go over and around the exh port before exiting at the rear. guy I know has a cnc so it shouldn't be much trouble to do up a impeller with reverse fins, then ill just flip flop the water hoses at the radiator.

I thought of keeping the current water flow direction and using a electric trailtech fan but they said I would need to do a DC conversion and who knows what else then install a battery

F5 Dave
10th October 2016, 20:35
That sounds great, but why would you reverse the flow? As you said but cold in the rear low. Been covered a few times. Std system is like squirting a hose in a bucket

Frits Overmars
10th October 2016, 22:16
With no attempt at cancelling the crank oscillating forces internally, then the cases/bearings are being severely hammered even if it cant be felt by the rider due to some clever isolation techniques.Can you imagine the internal hammering in a Rotax tandem-twin? The two contrarotating crankshafts doubled as balance shafts for each other, so their balance factor was almost 100 %. I had gathered some good experiences with 125 cc Rotax singles and when the 250 cc tandemtwins arrived, I expected to get them running without many problems. The first problem was cracking disc valves that had never caused any problems in the single...



wob on the yami twins would I gain anything worth while if i reverse the water flow and take it from the rad to the top of the head at the front of the cylinder then weld on some spigots as low as I can at the cylinder rear just above the reed blocks ? this is how some of the older ktm water flowed....
it shouldn't be much trouble to do up a impeller with reverse fins...Peewee, you might try to figure out why KTM bade farewell to their old layout. Meanwhile I'll try to figure out what you hope to achieve by reversing the impeller fins. The impeller efficiency will become hopeless unless you also reverse its direction of rotation.
In itself that is quite simple: you can push start your Yamaha backwards. But riding it with zero forward and six backward gears will be a challenge.
And the pump will still function less than optimal because its spiral casing isn't suited for the reverse rotation.

wobbly
11th October 2016, 08:21
The Yamaha LC/TZ water routing is a complete disaster,but reversing it wont solve anything.
I made CNC impellers 50% wider, and simply welded a spacer plate on the pump cover to increase the flow rate.
And the only way to get the water to flow correctly is to weld a flat 6061 plate on the top deck.
This needs really good welding around the bore, with the correct rods to suit the plating.
Then a single inlet down low at the rear brings in cold water, that is forced to flow over the transfers ,and then around the exhaust.
I put 4 holes in the plate equivalent to the exit pipe area, at the front of the cylinder, 1 each side of the 2 exhaust ducts.
This then forces water up into the front of the head, where it then flows around the inserts, and out at the rear of the head.
The thermostat housing was cut off and a plate welded over as there is a proper bypass setup near the pump entry..
This system works perfectly and just needs a small ( 3mm ) hole at the highest point in the middle of the plate to allow air to escape from
under this cylinder high point up into the head that has the exit - so its all self bleeding.

adegnes
11th October 2016, 08:33
Ages ago (I think but could be wrong)either 2Tinsitute or Ken Seeber suggested a cheaper alternative for small quanities of a tunsten alloy.
it was on Ebay for these things
http://www.abc-pinewood-derby.com/weights.php
http://pinecar.woodlandscenics.com/show/Item/P3915/page/1
http://www.maximum-velocity.com/tungstencylinders.htm
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Incremental-Tungsten-Cylinder-Set-for-Pinewood-Derby-Car-Weight-2-25-oz-/322004729139

You could also check out your local angling/fishing store.


I've pulled the crank.
Playing with nuts and washers taped to the counterweight tells me I need about 24-25g of added weight where I plan to drill the holes(two in each web close together opposite from the crank pin).

Both crank webs are 14mm thick.
A common size for the Derby Tungsten slugs are ø9.5mm x 11mm

Two ø10mm x 14mm holes in each web = about 34.5g removed
four ø9.5mm x 11mm tungsten slugs = about 60g added

60 - 34.5 = 25.5

small adjustments to the slugs with the grinder and we should be there.

Is gluing them in with epoxy certain death you think? The slugs seems to be cast, and are probably not super round.

wobbly
11th October 2016, 09:47
Forget gluing - have a light press fit and you can melt the web and tungsten together with tig, two small arcs of
weld with filler rod each side works perfectly.

peewee
11th October 2016, 12:16
frits thnx for bringing me back to reality. I forgot the reverse fins would be useless without the shaft turning in reverse also :facepalm:. wob I think ill just keep the water flow path as it is now. maybe not ideal but if I get to involved with trying to re-engineer every aspect of these dinosaur engines ill be a old man before its up and running

wobbly
12th October 2016, 08:09
Problem is that using the stock parts and water path its going to be impossible to keep the temp down where it should be.
They run hot as hell, and loose huge amounts of power in the process.

TZ350
13th October 2016, 09:50
What you are after is the average temp of the pipe wall material. You would need to measure the hottest ( at the header ) then the coldest ( in the mid ) - then it gets hotter again as you travel down the rear cone. Problem is that there is far more area of cold surface in the middle, so sadly some fudge factor guesstimating is needed.

Our method was not very scientific, just a bit of curious fun, but it looks like with a bit of effort and following Wob's suggestions one could easily make a good temperature map along the pipe.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/TEAT43kPzWs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

Pipe temperature of a Honda RS125 taken during a dyno pull from 7K rpm up to peak power and then run back down again.

jfn2
13th October 2016, 12:20
TZ350:
The way I see it, and please tell me if I'm wrong and how I'm wrong, either the pipe in your video is not matched up with your RS125 engine or the engine is not tuned correctly because the temp at the header (which should be the hottest temp area) is only 337 degrees at peak and not around +/- 500 degrees. I don't know where the bottom of your power band is but I don't think it's anywhere near the 325 degree mark. If I am right how would you go about correcting this setup? Also if you were to check the header temp with either a heat gun or a heat surface temp sensor where would you place the sensor? My guess is about 23cm (9") from piston face. The center sensor would be placed in the center of the belly (dwell) section and the last sensor at the center of the last cone ( center of the complete cone). Any one have any thoughts on this? Thank you.

wobbly
13th October 2016, 13:58
The max temp of 337*C is about 1/2 the way down the diffuser - nowhere near the header.

jfn2
13th October 2016, 14:21
wobbly:
Sorry my bad. So is this a good reading for this area?

TZ350
13th October 2016, 14:43
The RS was making 41 DynoJet rwhp, so about average. It was just interesting to see how the temperature changed with rpm.

wobbly
13th October 2016, 16:08
The temps we use in EngMod are the reflected wall temps the exhaust gas sees on the INSIDE as it travels down the pipe.
A heat gun shows whats going on on the outside,with plenty of slowly reacting insulation in the form of oily crap on the inside
and rusty crap on the outside surfaces.
As I said you have to guestimate whats going on from a series of heat gun readings ( this gave me the 100* split number ), and then use an actual dyno result to work backwards
in the sim to get a realistic curve shape in the right rpm band.
This is how I ended up with the 325/425* result that is close ballpark for many high performance race engines.

ken seeber
13th October 2016, 16:48
Sometime ago Hooser got me excited. Nah, nothing to do the (or his?) whole chicken thing, but labyrinth seals (see pic). HP just waiting to be unleashed?
So, got a Ø20*Ø35*7 teflon lipped seal and wrapped it with a paper strip, slid it over a crank and weighted it up so it was enough to overcome static friction and slowly rotate around the shaft with a 90 gm weight. (see pic).
Working backwards, this level of friction equates @ 14k rpm, to equal 0 .0226 kW. Stuff all really.
However, this is without and pressure acting on the seal. I guess the next step would be to mount 2 seals in a sleeve with varying applied pressures from within a drilling in the shaft. See pic. I guess one could do this based on crank angle vs pressure and do some sort of averaged calc of the frictional power over the full 360 deg cycle
325069325070325071

Hemi Makutu
13th October 2016, 18:11
Aye, tip some bloody nitro-methane in eh fella, its been research proven.

http://firebrand.me.berkeley.edu/thesis/chen_thesis.pdf

Hemi Makutu
13th October 2016, 18:17
Scroll down a couple of entries - to the topic research paper: http://trans-motauto.com/sbornik/1-2015.pdf

Hemi Makutu
13th October 2016, 18:29
www.ktm.com/mx/250-sx-1/

Does that balance shaft do anything else, eh bro?
It has to be geared/timed 1-1, so is it maybe an ignition mount too?

F5 Dave
13th October 2016, 18:48
No solenoid, and really? Better than a Keihin? A dirty mikuni?

No one seems to have taken on Smartcarb.

husaberg
13th October 2016, 18:48
www.ktm.com/mx/250-sx-1/

Does that balance shaft do anything else, eh bro?
It has to be geared/timed 1-1, so is it maybe an ignition mount too?

A counter balance shaft might be okay for a generator side of things i had that idea myself, but i think it would be not so great for timing as it would have a fair bit backlash built in.thus the timing could be a little eratic.
The Aprilias had a pickup sensor built into the crank wheel as did the ROC/swissauto/pulse.

Hemi Makutu
13th October 2016, 18:56
TZ inline 4's used their 1-1 jackshaft for ignition on one end, & clutch pinion on the other...
Maybe Yamaha should've used that jackshaft as a balance shaft too..