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Thread: Brake juddering: THE SAGA CONTINUES.

  1. #1
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    Brake juddering: THE SAGA CONTINUES.

    Hi everyone,

    I have an awesome gpz1000rx 1986, awesome except for the fact that under braking I get that bad juddering (real bad here, no slight pulsing BAD BAD BAD juddering.


    Oh thats easy you say, new discs.

    Done that. Problem still there.

    Was suggested that the rim could be bent (hit a traffic island at speed) and to overhaul the brake calipers and get new bearings.

    Done all that and still the problem is worse (I also fitted braied brake lines at this stage).

    I thought maybe the "new" - read 2nd hand, discs were not true,so I sent them off to f1 in hammyton, and they confirmed that the discs are true and within tolerance. - they still re surfaced them to be sure.


    F1 said to check out if the hub was out of true and to check theres no crap between the disc and the hub, I had a look and there was a very tiny ammount of stuff which I took off with a bit of sand paper.

    so kb gurus, what on earth could be causing the juddering under braking? When slowly moving/pushing the bike and I apply light brake pressure I can feel the brake lever pulsing

    I hope I have given out enough information.


    Thanks for you help

    Rm
    Then I could get a Kb Tshirt, move to Timaru and become a full time crossdressing faggot

  2. #2
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    26th February 2005 - 15:10
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    Worn forks (or fork bearings), worn steering head bearings, worn wheel bearings (front or rear), wheels out of line, bent triple tree, bent frame, bent swing arm, worn swing arm bearings, worn rear shocks, bad tyres, worn master cylinder, worn slave cylinder, old hydraulic fluid. Take your choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark
    This world has lost it's drive, everybody just wants to fit in the be the norm as it were.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Vincent
    The manufacturers go to a lot of trouble to find out what the average rider prefers, because the maker who guesses closest to the average preference gets the largest sales. But the average rider is mainly interested in silly (as opposed to useful) “goodies” to try to kid the public that he is riding a racer

  3. #3
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    Just to confirm, has the problem only appeared since you hit the traffic island?

  4. #4
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    Do you have access to a dial indicator?
    If not, lift the front and spin the wheel, do the disks move sideways within the caliper?
    You should be able to get a fair idea by eye.

    If you rotate the front axle when the wheel is still does it move the disks sideways within the caliper?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tank
    You say "no one wants to fuck with some large bloke on a really angry sounding bike" but the truth of the matter is that you are a balding middle-aged ice-cream seller from Edgecume who wears a hello kitty t-shirt (in your profile pic) and your angry sounding bike is a fucken hyoshit - not some big assed harley with a human skull on the front.

  5. #5
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    Thanks guys for your fast replies!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ixion View Post
    Worn forks (or fork bearings), worn steering head bearings, worn wheel bearings (front or rear), wheels out of line, bent triple tree, bent frame, bent swing arm, worn swing arm bearings, worn rear shocks, bad tyres, worn master cylinder, worn slave cylinder, old hydraulic fluid. Take your choice.
    hmmmmm alot of those options sound very expensive. Wouldnt most of them have side effects that don't just happen under brakes?, Hydraulic fluid? You mean brake fuild? Obviously I put new stuff in when I got braided brake lines, and again when I over hauled the brakes. Put new wheel bearings in. The only one on that list that bothers me is wheel out of alinement, how would I check that?

    Quote Originally Posted by slowpoke View Post
    Just to confirm, has the problem only appeared since you hit the traffic island?
    No this has happened since I own the bike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedie View Post
    He has actually given quite a good description of the problem Ixion, i.e. can feel brake lever pulsing when only pushing the bike along, this discounts most of your "options". I dont have any help for RM, but I would suggest your post is not awefully helpful, perhaps you could refine your answer a little to be more specific.
    Cheers speedie, hopefully somone will be able to sovle this mystery - It starting to sound like a scooby doo episode!
    Then I could get a Kb Tshirt, move to Timaru and become a full time crossdressing faggot

  6. #6
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    I should note, these brakes (and 1 speeding ticket, 2 licence tickets) have completely cleaned me out, no more $$ to buy anything.......



    Quote Originally Posted by The Stranger View Post
    Do you have access to a dial indicator?
    If not, lift the front and spin the wheel, do the disks move sideways within the caliper?
    You should be able to get a fair idea by eye.

    If you rotate the front axle when the wheel is still does it move the disks sideways within the caliper?

    No dail indicator, Im just waitng for the discs to come back from f1, should be here by 3pm.

    I'll give a go at spinning the wheel, if they move with in the caliper, what dose that mean?
    Then I could get a Kb Tshirt, move to Timaru and become a full time crossdressing faggot

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by renegade master View Post
    No dail indicator, Im just waitng for the discs to come back from f1, should be here by 3pm.

    I'll give a go at spinning the wheel, if they move with in the caliper, what dose that mean?
    Given we know the disks are true.
    If you rotate the axle but not the wheel and the disks move sideways within the caliper it would indicate a bent axle.

    If you rotate the wheel but not the axle and the disks move sideways within the caliper it would indicate a bent wheel.

    Quite simple tests really to test out the wheel and axle. You have already checked the disks. So then you have to look at the calipers themselves. I have not had experience of a caliper causing this, but was advised by a motorcycle mechanic that it can when I went through this problem with the GSXR.

    They are pretty easy to strip and clean, so why not do that anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tank
    You say "no one wants to fuck with some large bloke on a really angry sounding bike" but the truth of the matter is that you are a balding middle-aged ice-cream seller from Edgecume who wears a hello kitty t-shirt (in your profile pic) and your angry sounding bike is a fucken hyoshit - not some big assed harley with a human skull on the front.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Stranger View Post
    Given we know the disks are true.
    If you rotate the axle but not the wheel and the disks move sideways within the caliper it would indicate a bent axle.

    If you rotate the wheel but not the axle and the disks move sideways within the caliper it would indicate a bent wheel.

    Quite simple tests really to test out the wheel and axle. You have already checked the disks. So then you have to look at the calipers themselves. I have not had experience of a caliper causing this, but was advised by a motorcycle mechanic that it can when I went through this problem with the GSXR.

    They are pretty easy to strip and clean, so why not do that anyway.

    Ive cleaned the cailpers. And the wheel has been "unbent".


    A bent axl, that could be it great snakes I might be able to fix it!\


    Any way to check for a bent axle with out the discs?
    Then I could get a Kb Tshirt, move to Timaru and become a full time crossdressing faggot

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by renegade master View Post
    Ive cleaned the cailpers. And the wheel has been "unbent".


    A bent axl, that could be it great snakes I might be able to fix it!\


    Any way to check for a bent axle with out the discs?
    Yeah, with a couple of V blocks and a dial indicator.
    I guess you could roll it along a known flat surface, but that would be the trick - getting a known flat surface.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tank
    You say "no one wants to fuck with some large bloke on a really angry sounding bike" but the truth of the matter is that you are a balding middle-aged ice-cream seller from Edgecume who wears a hello kitty t-shirt (in your profile pic) and your angry sounding bike is a fucken hyoshit - not some big assed harley with a human skull on the front.

  10. #10
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    hmmmmm alot of those options sound very expensive. Wouldnt most of them have side effects that don't just happen under brakes?, Hydraulic fluid? You mean brake fuild? Obviously I put new stuff in when I got braided brake lines, and again when I over hauled the brakes. Put new wheel bearings in. The only one on that list that bothers me is wheel out of alinement, how would I check that?
    Other side effects ? Possibly. You don't mention any , but every mechanic knows that doesn't mean much. The number of times I have heard something like "My xxx is doing yyy": " Hm well, we've checked a b and c. It could be d , but if it were you also be experiencing zzz " : "Oh , yeah , it does that, too"

    Also, heavy braking puts more load on most supension components than almost anything else. So sometimes wear that causes minor effects the rest of the time , will show up markedly under braking. Especially if the bike is old and has been like that all the time you have had it - the "other effects" may be something that you simply take for granted.

    Wheel alignment, check it with a ling straight edge along the axis of the bike. Check that with the forks dead in line ahead, both wheels are straight in line also, and in line with the swing arm. Check the wheels in several positions.

    Perversely, wear or damage at the rear of the bike often shows up as a problem at the front. Did you check/replace the rear wheel bearings as well as the front?

    Also, check your wheel for balance.

    If you rotate the wheel but not the axle and the disks move sideways within the caliper it would indicate a bent wheel.

    Quite simple tests really to test out the wheel and axle. You have already checked the disks. So then you have to look at the calipers themselves. I have not had experience of a caliper causing this, but was advised by a motorcycle mechanic that it can when I went through this problem with the GSXR.
    OP does say

    Was suggested that the rim could be bent (hit a traffic island at speed) and to overhaul the brake calipers and get new bearings.

    Done all that and still the problem is worse (I also fitted braied brake lines at this stage).
    though it would still be worth rechecking. A bent axle would definately be worth checking for .

    Ultimately, judder occurs because something is causing the front wheel to try to head off along a different line to the rear wheel (and bike direction). The rotor/calipers try to force it back into line, then the "whatever" forces it out of line. Rinse lather repeat.Or , the reverse, the rotor/caliper is on a different plane to the bike so it forces the wheel out of line, and forward motion forces it back. Finding what is doing that is a mater of carefully inspecting everything for alignment.
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark
    This world has lost it's drive, everybody just wants to fit in the be the norm as it were.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Vincent
    The manufacturers go to a lot of trouble to find out what the average rider prefers, because the maker who guesses closest to the average preference gets the largest sales. But the average rider is mainly interested in silly (as opposed to useful) “goodies” to try to kid the public that he is riding a racer

  11. #11
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    Pulsing is usually caused by the disc pushing the brake pistons in and out, ie either warped or badly worn (high and low spots on the disc). If the discs are true, mounted square to the caliper (nothing bent) and the wheel assembly is straight then they should not pulse.
    The Strangers advice is correct, check everything carefully, something ain't straight.

    Just a stray thought tho, what are the condition of the brake pads? I'm not sure whether they could be causing pulsing but while you are reassembling the front clean and check the calipers and pads as well.

    Good luck.

  12. #12
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    Thanks for the help, heaps of things to think about.

    I put new pads in when I got new discs.
    Then I could get a Kb Tshirt, move to Timaru and become a full time crossdressing faggot

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by renegade master View Post
    Thanks for the help, heaps of things to think about.

    I put new pads in when I got new discs.
    I did all of this stuff on the GSXR. It would shudder like hell under braking due to the rivets holding the disk to the carrier being way loose and it would go into a head shake under real heavy braking

    Checked the wheel and axle.
    Replaced the disks with larger diameter ones, replaced the calipers, master cylinder and fluid. Got some dual carbon pads.

    I removed some of the oil from the forks and tightened the stearing head bearings. This got rid of the head shake, but it still fucken shudders under braking, though is way way better than it was. To be fair though, the disks have turned blue several times now so I suspect they are a little warped.

    Point is, you can spend moon beams and still not have it 100%. It stops on a dime, so just realx and enjoy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tank
    You say "no one wants to fuck with some large bloke on a really angry sounding bike" but the truth of the matter is that you are a balding middle-aged ice-cream seller from Edgecume who wears a hello kitty t-shirt (in your profile pic) and your angry sounding bike is a fucken hyoshit - not some big assed harley with a human skull on the front.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Stranger View Post
    Point is, you can spend moon beams and still not have it 100%. It stops on a dime, so just realx and enjoy.
    If I could get the juddering to 50% of normal i'd be well happy.
    Then I could get a Kb Tshirt, move to Timaru and become a full time crossdressing faggot

  15. #15
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    IMHO, juddering (ie shaking the whole bike)will be something bent or loose, whereas worn disks are more likely to give a pulsing through the brake lever.
    When you've had the wheel out, have you grasped the fork sliders and see if you can feel any back and forth/side to side movement? Loosen the triple clamp bolts a bit and try rotating the fork leg -if its bent you'd see the bottom of the slider moving around (can't explain it but I'm sure you know what I mean)
    Are the surfaces where the caliper bolts to the fork leg good / flat? Caliper bolt holes or sliding pin holes not worn? (if the fault happens at pushing speed it would seem the caliper(s) grab the disk and are moving a bit, either on the bolts or slider pins)
    Remove 1 caliper - put something between the pads so they don't pop out then try it with only one side active? Any change? (try to narrow it down to one side).
    Mudguard bolts tight? Guard mounts can act as a cheap fork brace
    Do you know anyone with a similar bike that you could swap the wheel with?
    it's not a bad thing till you throw a KLR into the mix.
    those cheap ass bitches can do anything with ductape.
    (PostalDave on ADVrider)

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