Tales from the Emporium

[NordieBoy]

9.1L V8 with twin superchargers and there's 3 of the suckers!

That's almost as much power as the yacht.
3 of 10,000hp, 3 turbo monsters.

[XF650]

Nordie - how did you find the new set up on the Reefton ride, in paticular the boulder bashing?

[NordieBoy]

Nordie - how did you find the new set up on the Reefton ride, in paticular the boulder bashing?

They went well.
I really liked the lack of front end dive under brakes and over the boulders with the short sharp suspension movements that's exactly where they are designed to do well.
I need to ride a DR with emulators to compare sometime.

A steering damper would have come in handy but I think we all would have benefited from one of them

[NordieBoy]

Just rambling here...

3rd gear on the 96-97 bikes gets a real whine on as the hardening goes...

Suzuki fix this by increasing the hardening.
What if this makes the gear more brittle?

2003 Suzuki fix this again...

Would explain why there's no <98 and >03 bikes in the blowup list...

[Transalper]

Here's an 05 one..... First post states it's an 05.

post #40 confirms the problem.

edit... and your list from ADV... post #64 650 go crunch mentions an 04 and 05.

NordieBoy (NZ) 2001 60,000km
Transalper (NZ) 2001 55,000km
Rosscoact (AU) 2004 13,000km
Mardy (US?) 1997 53,000km
TH (NZ) 1999 40,000km
RubberCow80 (AU) 2001 25,000km (2nd gear?)
Philth (AU) 3 bikes <20,000km (2nd gear?)
BikeRooter (AU) 2006 10,200km
Madsdad (US) 2005 16,000km
briangv99 (??) ???? 21,000km

Is this no longer considered accurate? or is your memory failing?

[clint640]

Just rambling here...

3rd gear on the 96-97 bikes gets a real whine on as the hardening goes...

Suzuki fix this by increasing the hardening.
What if this makes the gear more brittle?

2003 Suzuki fix this again...

Would explain why there's no <98 and >03 bikes in the blowup list...

Not sure if it was 3rd gear, but a mates bro had his new one grenade itself in 07 (I assume 06 or 07 build) - it blew the whole back of the gearbox off at less than 1000km.

Cheers
Clint

[NordieBoy]

Brain fade. They did the new-new gear in 06

Here's an 05 one..... First post states it's an 05.

post #40 confirms the problem.

edit... and your list from ADV... post #64 650 go crunch mentions an 04 and 05.

Is this no longer considered accurate? or is your memory failing?

[NordieBoy]

Warewolf and I did swapsies up to the summit of the Maungatapu today.

I was surprised how similar the bikes were.

The 640A was much wider at the tank and you have problems getting forward as much as on the DR.
Once the KTM gets up around 5000rpm then it really sings but down low and mid range the DR gets the nod.
Front suspension is surprisingly close.
Rear suspension the KTM is much better although I'd like to compare a gold valved DR shock.
I found the KTM to be heavier/slower in the steering but as it's almost a degree steeper rake it should be sharper but the softer back end and tyre choice may have had something to do with it.
The DR is completely vibration free compared to the KTM.

I found myself catching the edge of rocks I would have avoided on the DR as the heavier front and lack of cognizance of exactly where the front wheel was conspired against me.

The big minus for me on the KTM was the width of the tank which for how I ride is a showstopper.

Again I was suprised just how similar the bikes felt.
Stock KTM 640A vs Modded DR650SE.

I have fallen even more in love with my bike

[Box'a'bits]

The 640A was much wider at the tank and you have problems getting forward as much as on the DR.

The big minus for me on the KTM was the width of the tank which for how I ride is a showstopper.

I find that with my 640a as well. Getting weight forward isn't an issue, especially if the tank has a bit of fuel in it. And the fuel sits low, so it doesn't really upset the bike. Its just that the tank flares out going forward. Add on a tank bag (which is useful to run), and it can be a bit of a pain, especially on steep rutty uphills, where you want to get forward on the bike, & grip the bike with your knees. That said, the big fuel tank is great most of the time.

The suspension on mine is great - its just that I'm often not aggressive enough with it to make it work well. When I'm in the mood it can fly.

Vibes? I don't notice them now. Often to do with how you ride it & what revs you pull.

I looked at a DR650. But the overall KTM package (without the need to modify substantially) works really well for me. I bought my one with 20k kms on the clock for the same as a new DR650. Horses for courses.

[NordieBoy]

It was more the balance thing of getting my weight forward so I wasn't hanging off the bars and was more balanced.

[Box'a'bits]

It was more the balance thing of getting my weight forward so I wasn't hanging off the bars and was more balanced.

Yup, thats it.

[warewolf]

Intiminators are cheating... They work very well, I had to stop myself from testing them - deliberately aiming for the worst downhill bumps and braking over them - in order to ride the bike like you would normally. What rate springs are in there at the moment? The front end felt plush, and both ends okay except over bigger or faster bumps. The KTM's suspension works better when it is being worked harder.

The DR is narrower at the knees but wider at the crotch. As a result, it was better seated but for me it wasn't as comfortable to stand in a neutral position... slightly bandy-legged. Standing forward was better with the narrower tank, for sure. The tank bag practically can only be used for road touring, and even then it is getting in the way.

Fran's moved the pegs lower and backward. I'm closer to the mythical average rider than he is, the original position would suit me better I think (when standing).

The DR engine is great off the bottom, pretty linear but doesn't respond to throttle like the 640. In comparison the power curve of the 640 climbs steeply in to the mid-range. The DR doesn't transition from plod to power as swiftly. Not necessarily a bad thing. It builds power nice and steadily. And the only way to tell it is running at idle is to listen to the bark from the pipe when you blip the throttle. It doesn't shake the whole frame like the 640 does. It's like the engine is rubber-mounted... to someone else's frame.

Bear in mind the 640 is still fully Euro 2 compliant - if a little rich due to worn needle jet I suspect - and 5000rpm is closer to idle than to redline. Half the poorer low-down response is due to the emissions setup but half of it is just the top-endy nature of the design. Part of the reason for today's exercise was a second opinion for the before/after uncorking. Hmmm, and I just realised one reason to uncork it is to improve the throttle response!!

It seemed like the DR's first gear was lower, but in fact the 640 is markedly lower. A bit of research shows all the 640's gears are lower, but with a slightly wider spread, 3.06 vs. 2.93. First on the DR is nearly halfway between 1st & 2nd on the 640, and 4th on the DR is close to the 640's 5th. Of course sprockets/tyres change the overall - so the DR could still have had a lower first gear outright - but the DR has a whole extra gear up top, which explains the low cruising revs cfm the 640. What final ratio are you running?

So I did a little chart:
[edit: this includes the primary gears]


The steering on the KTM is definitely sharper. First swift turn after getting back on it and I nearly mounted the kerb before the corner. The DR felt like it was suffering from 'chopper flop' (possibly a pointy front tyre issue) and the bars felt wider. Oddly, the KTM felt longer in the wheelbase (hah! it's 20mm longer). It would be interesting to look at wheelbase, steering offset (trail) and caster/rake numbers for the two bikes. Ok, DR vs 640: the caster is 61.5 vs 62.5 degrees; wheelbase is 1490 vs 1510mm; trail is 111 vs 124mm. So the KTM must be running much less triple-clamp & axle offset to get the greater trail despite the steeper rake (I think) [edit: yep, reducing offset increases trail].

I've got the 640 set up with more sag than it should have to help compensate for a spring that's too hard. Plus it has 40mm more travel, so more sag there too. But if Fran was raking out the 640 with too much rear sag, equally I was sharpening up the DR through too little.

I liked the E-07s (front & rear) very much in those conditions. The front let go a few times as is to be expected, but the rear gripped surprisingly well and slid when provoked very nicely with plenty of feedback. Although stepping the back out highlighted the difference in throttle response.

All in all a very well set up bike. The engine is nice and crisp - no doubt due to attention to the jetting. The whole front end - bars, bar position, suspension - just felt much better than others I've tried. In fact I was comfortable on the bike from the moment I got on it - doesn't happen often - with one caveat: I struggled to use the clutch one-fingered, feels like road bike levers not dirt bike levers. Could just be strange bike syndrome, but I kept trapping my fingers and having to resort to 4-fingers to try to get control... without stalling, falling, or rolling backwards.

Don't know that I'd be rushing to uh, "upgrade" any time soon, but I certainly wouldn't shy away from riding one like Nordie's.

[NordieBoy]

Intiminators are cheating... They work very well, I had to stop myself from testing them - deliberately aiming for the worst downhill bumps and braking over them - in order to ride the bike like you would normally. What rate springs are in there at the moment? The front end felt plush, and both ends okay except over bigger or faster bumps. The KTM's suspension works better when it is being worked harder.

The inventor of the Intiminators say they're like cheating too
The front is running the stock .40, mushy, soft, progressive spring not that you notice that with the Intiminators in there. It sits up better than the Eibach .47's.

The DR is narrower at the knees but wider at the crotch. As a result, it was better seated but for me it wasn't as comfortable to stand in a neutral position... slightly bandy-legged. Standing forward was better with the narrower tank, for sure. The tank bag practically can only be used for road touring, and even then it is getting in the way.

Now I've lowered the pegs the seat is too wide up by the tank and also needs to stay narrower for another 5-10cm back.

Fran's moved the pegs lower and backward. I'm closer to the mythical average rider than he is, the original position would suit me better I think (when standing).

The ergos of the stock seat would suit better (but not the foam).

The DR engine is great off the bottom, pretty linear but doesn't respond to throttle like the 640. In comparison the power curve of the 640 climbs steeply in to the mid-range. The DR doesn't transition from plod to power as swiftly. Not necessarily a bad thing. It builds power nice and steadily. And the only way to tell it is running at idle is to listen to the bark from the pipe when you blip the throttle. It doesn't shake the whole frame like the 640 does. It's like the engine is rubber-mounted... to someone else's frame.

It almost felt electric compared to the LC4.
This engine dosn't feel as strong down low as my old one and I think that's down to the old one being run-in harder and I got it at 7,500km vs this one that was run-in by the book and ridden pretty gently for the 28,000km before I got it.
The DR feels like it's got a lot more flywheel.
My XR250 was similar with the blipping and when we lightened the flywheel it would respond far better/more closely to the throttle action.

Bear in mind the 640 is still fully Euro 2 compliant - if a little rich due to worn needle jet I suspect - and 5000rpm is closer to idle than to redline. Half the poorer low-down response is due to the emissions setup but half of it is just the top-endy nature of the design. Part of the reason for today's exercise was a second opinion for the before/after uncorking. Hmmm, and I just realised one reason to uncork it is to improve the throttle response!!

Yep, similar feel/thoughts with the Nordwest. Twin cam vs single cam?

It seemed like the DR's first gear was lower, but in fact the 640 is markedly lower. A bit of research shows all the 640's gears are lower, but with a slightly wider spread, 3.06 vs. 2.93. First on the DR is nearly halfway between 1st & 2nd on the 640, and 4th on the DR is close to the 640's 5th. Of course sprockets/tyres change the overall - so the DR could still have had a lower first gear outright - but the DR has a whole extra gear up top, which explains the low cruising revs cfm the 640. What final ratio are you running?

At the moment I'm running 14/41 - 1 tooth smaller on the front.
1st gear is stupidly high compared to the rest.
If we gear it for a useful 1st then 5th is far too low.
Gear for a nice 5th and 1st is too high.
Wonder what a 2 tooth difference on the gears would make to 1st and 1 tooth to 2nd?

I've got the 640 set up with more sag than it should have to help compensate for a spring that's too hard. Plus it has 40mm more travel, so more sag there too. But if Fran was raking out the 640 with too much rear sag, equally I was sharpening up the DR through too little.

Are you saying I'm fat?
It did feel like there was a lot of race sag on it though.
I've just adjusted mine so the back has a lot more (too much) just to see the difference and then adjust to find a happy medium.

I struggled to use the clutch one-fingered, feels like road bike levers not dirt bike levers. Could just be strange bike syndrome, but I kept trapping my fingers and having to resort to 4-fingers to try to get control... without stalling, falling, or rolling backwards.

The clutch is quite heavy but not as heavy as the one on the old motor. Partially down to the cable but the worse bit is I have some heavier springs to put in there too
I tried installing my Magura hydro clutch on the DR but there wasn't really room.

The steering on the KTM is definitely sharper. First swift turn after getting back on it and I nearly mounted the kerb before the corner.

It felt heavier and slower though. Almost like it had a steering damper wound up a bit much.

Don't know that I'd be rushing to uh, "upgrade" any time soon, but I certainly wouldn't shy away from riding one like Nordie's.

I think the KTM is more suited to "spirited" riding where you are brake sliding into corners and power sliding out and the throttle response would be a bonus but will be interesting to see what happens to the bottom end with the un-corking.

I won't be rushing to "upgrade" soon either. But again won't say no to the occasional blat

My next upgrade will be to the rear suspension as that's where the issues are now.

[NordieBoy]

It was nice to get back on the DR though.
All the levers where they're supposed to be
Esp. the rear brake...

[warewolf]

The front is running the stock .40, mushy, soft, progressive spring not that you notice that with the Intiminators in there. It sits up better than the Eibach .47's.

Hell yes, they definitely felt stronger than the .46s in the KTM.

The DR feels like it's got a lot more flywheel.

I think that's why I didn't stall it when struggling with the clutch.

Yep, similar feel/thoughts with the Nordwest. Twin cam vs single cam?

Don't think so, not in itself. 2 valve vs 4, yes. 2v are torquier off the bottom, 4v better flow at high rpm. Design choice methinks. The 640 makes peak torque at 5500rpm and the curve is very flat from there to redline - a band 3000rpm wide at 90-95% of peak power. Top-endy but not peaky.

At the moment I'm running 14/41 - 1 tooth smaller on the front.
1st gear is stupidly high compared to the rest.
If we gear it for a useful 1st then 5th is far too low.
Gear for a nice 5th and 1st is too high.
Wonder what a 2 tooth difference on the gears would make to 1st and 1 tooth to 2nd?

I will do a gearing vs road speed chart comparo. I was running 16/44 and had a 1" bigger diameter rear wheel... no wonder the DR was easier to get going!! The DR was effectively 2T smaller at the front.

Will redo the gearing chart with your changes. It's apparent that there's not much of a step 1st to 2nd. 'swhy I did the chart, easier to see than decimals.

Are you saying I'm fat?
It did feel like there was a lot of race sag on it though.

It's all relative. Race sag for me is 98mm, pretty much spot-on the generic 1/3 of travel amount. WP say 90-100mm, KTM say 80-110. But the issue is the static sag, which is 2-3 times what it should be due to the reduced preload to get the correct race sag number. The standard preload gives 69mm of race sag, too little. At shed night we'll crank it up to say 85mm.

The clutch is quite heavy but not as heavy as the one on the old motor. Partially down to the cable but the worse bit is I have some heavier springs to put in there too

Why???

It felt heavier and slower though. Almost like it had a steering damper wound up a bit much.

Umm, steering head bearings are slightly notched and needing replacement, and I've got them strongly preloaded to help damp out some headshake (gone now) induced by crappy suspension setup I used to have.

I think the KTM is more suited to "spirited" riding where you are brake sliding into corners and power sliding out and the throttle response would be a bonus but will be interesting to see what happens to the bottom end with the un-corking.

Indeed, on both counts. Horses for courses, a bit like the Thunderbike lads who all picked the SuperDuke as THE bike to take for a fang, but the LAST bike they wanted for the week-long staff tour.

But again won't say no to the occasional blat

Any time.

All the levers where they're supposed to be
Esp. the rear brake...

Mine is quite low to suit my poor ankle articulation, with a fair bit of play so I can rest my foot on it without activating it - more like a dirt bike setup. It's also got a sharper response so it's easier to lock on demand (sintered pads does most of that). Long throw with a short take-up. I noticed the DR was much softer in its action requiring a heavy boot to lock.

All the controls are set up for convenient access while standing. If it's smooth enough for me to be sitting, I can tolerate the controls being difficult to reach... and they are, when seated.