Hypothetical situation

[Headbanger]

I disagree. It's purely the perception of being dangerous. My line in the sand is obviously a long way from yours but so what? There are also plenty of people whose own line is a long way from yours but in the opposite direction - they'd totally ban motorcycles given half a chance. I mean, who needs them, right? They're statistically dangerous machines and serve no useful function that cannot be performed by a much safer medium. We should do activities no more dangerous than crochet. Are they more correct than you?

Wow.Just.........wow.

I never once suggested people stop doing as they please, So bringing up people who want to ban dangerous activities and trying to align that with my position is just pretty damn stupid.

Almost as illogical as claiming increasing risk doesn't exist as its only the perception that changes.

[Max Preload]

Wow.Just.........wow.

I never once suggested people stop doing as they please, So bringing up people who want to ban dangerous activities and trying to align that with my position is just pretty damn stupid.

Almost as illogical as claiming increasing risk doesn't exist as its only the perception that changes.

You suggested that it's dangerous. That's based on your perceptions. Other people would suggest all motorcycling is dangerous. Based on their perceptions and the 'risks' they'd take.

You claim my "logic sucks" yet all the while so is yours to more conservative people. This clearly surprises you. Your hypocrisy serves only to highlight your own belief that everyone else is wrong.

[Headbanger]

Your an idiot if you think there is no increased risk in throwing up a wheelie in the opposing lane. And the rest of your post has already been dismissed as piffle.

[imdying]

I disagree. It's purely the perception of being dangerous. My line in the sand is obviously a long way from yours but so what? There are also plenty of people whose own line is a long way from yours but in the opposite direction - they'd totally ban motorcycles given half a chance. I mean, who needs them, right? They're statistically dangerous machines and serve no useful function that cannot be performed by a much safer medium. We should do activities no more dangerous than crochet. Are they more correct than you?

Nice straw man, but you're still full of shit

What's the number of the officer that registered the ticket, and what's the plate on R64Lifes bike?

[boomer]

Nice straw man, but you're still full of shit

What's the number of the officer that registered the ticket, and what's the plate on R64Lifes bike?

ahahah good call

[Max Preload]

Your an idiot if you think there is no increased risk in throwing up a wheelie in the opposing lane. And the rest of your post has already been dismissed as piffle.

All that means is you've realised the stupidity of your position and have no way to justify it so you'll just try to back out of the discussion to save face. FAIL.

Oh, and BTW who is the biggest idiot? It's spelled "you're", tosswad.

[The Stranger:Me]

Oh, and BTW who is the biggest idiot?

You are the clear winner.

[FROSTY:Me]

Max Preload,Headbanger,Mark H.
Arguing the rights or wrongs of if a wheelie on a busy public road is apsolutely futile and accademic (sp).
Fact is Rider A and F were given tickets because the POLICE have decided that doing so IS dangerous.
The issue here isn't if it is or isn't dangerous. Rgardless SOMEONE has to go to court.Be it to dispute if it is or isn't dangerous or be it to rightfully deny the charges. At stake for rider A and F is their licence.
The issue here is that rider B and C have done nothing to assist.

[MarkH]

Max Preload,Headbanger,Mark H.
Arguing the rights or wrongs of if a wheelie on a busy public road is apsolutely futile and accademic (sp).
Fact is Rider A and F were given tickets because the POLICE have decided that doing so IS dangerous.
The issue here isn't if it is or isn't dangerous. Rgardless SOMEONE has to go to court.Be it to dispute if it is or isn't dangerous or be it to rightfully deny the charges. At stake for rider A and F is their licence.
The issue here is that rider B and C have done nothing to assist.

It seems to me that B & C have to be careful to not come on here, tell their side of the story and incriminate themselves. If they come forward and incriminate themselves with the police then they will lose their licenses (maybe their jobs? I don't know how their employment would be affected). I can understand why they would be reluctant to get themselves in the shit.

I understand that it is a bugger for A & F to be in the position that the police have put them in and would hope that justice would prevail and they may be able to convince a judge that there is enough doubt about the identification of the offending riders.

I am still uncertain about how safe it would be for B & C to admit in court to being the offending riders - it has been suggested that their admission would be protected by privilege and be inadmissible in a case against them and that driving related charges must be made within 6 months of the offence, I am not a lawyer and can't be sure that either of these things are correct. Even if B & C can't safely admit their part in court, surely A could admit to being the first rider (but deny being the 2nd or 3rd) and D, E & F could all be witnesses backing A as the lead rider - hopefully the judge would consider 4 riders vs 1 cop that missed 4 number plates and only got the first digit of the 5th and failed to ID colour or brand of any of the bikes. F could also defend his case similarly with D & E saying that F was behind them and not one of the 2 in front of them that were pulling the wheelies. If A & F could get not guilty verdicts then combined with the police failing to charge the correct riders we could have no one losing their licenses.

Luckily for me I have never been in the position of any of these guys, unluckily all the traffic charges I have faced have been for stuff I did do, so I have paid up every time (never had an occasion to plead not guilty).

[Patch]

At stake for rider A and F is their licence

and possibly their jobs, if it is an employment requirement to have a current license.


There is a crap load of hurt going on - but people will only choose to believe it if they bother to either take their fuckin head outta the sand or unplug it from having it up their arse.


Two arseholes I'll never ride with - ever, whether they decide to step up or not.

It seems to me that B & C have to be careful to not come on here, tell their side of the story and incriminate themselves. If they come forward and incriminate themselves with the police then they will lose their licenses (maybe their jobs? I don't know how their employment would be affected). I can understand why they would be reluctant to get themselves in the shit.

too fucking bad if they cop whats coming to them - do the crime, do the time.

Why the hell should anyone take the rap for someone else's actions (unless they choose too) which is certainly not the case here.

[The Stranger:Me]

It seems to me that B & C have to be careful to not come on here, tell their side of the story and incriminate themselves. If they come forward and incriminate themselves with the police then they will lose their licenses (maybe their jobs? I don't know how their employment would be affected). I can understand why they would be reluctant to get themselves in the shit.

I understand that it is a bugger for A & F to be in the position that the police have put them in and would hope that justice would prevail and they may be able to convince a judge that there is enough doubt about the identification of the offending riders.

I am still uncertain about how safe it would be for B & C to admit in court to being the offending riders - it has been suggested that their admission would be protected by privilege and be inadmissible in a case against them and that driving related charges must be made within 6 months of the offence, I am not a lawyer and can't be sure that either of these things are correct. Even if B & C can't safely admit their part in court, surely A could admit to being the first rider (but deny being the 2nd or 3rd) and D, E & F could all be witnesses backing A as the lead rider - hopefully the judge would consider 4 riders vs 1 cop that missed 4 number plates and only got the first digit of the 5th and failed to ID colour or brand of any of the bikes. F could also defend his case similarly with D & E saying that F was behind them and not one of the 2 in front of them that were pulling the wheelies. If A & F could get not guilty verdicts then combined with the police failing to charge the correct riders we could have no one losing their licenses.

Luckily for me I have never been in the position of any of these guys, unluckily all the traffic charges I have faced have been for stuff I did do, so I have paid up every time (never had an occasion to plead not guilty).

All well and good considering the legal aspects, but you appear to completely fail to consider the moral aspects.
Tell me please. Is honour important? Do you feel anyone has a moral obligation here?

[MarkH]

All well and good considering the legal aspects, but you appear to completely fail to consider the moral aspects.
Tell me please. Is honour important? Do you feel anyone has a moral obligation here?

That's a difficult one to answer accurately - I have never been in that position so what I think I would do may be different to what I would actually do. But I can understand the concept that coming forward and admitting to the wrongdoing leads to certain punishment (if we are talking about loss of job then that is certainly a hefty punishment) whereas the falsely accused can plead not guilty and hopefully get off the charges.

I feel that the police have a moral obligation not to pick out people at random to take the rap for misdeeds. If they can't positively identify the riders doing wheelstands then they should just charge no one or maybe everyone they can identify on the wrong side of the no crossing line (lesser offence, but at least the correct offence in this case).

I think to some degree the results of the court cases will make a difference to how riders B & C feel about their actions. If A & F are found not guilty then B & C will no doubt be happy that no one had to pay for their misdeeds. However if A and/or F are found guilty then it is hard for anyone to feel good about it - though it is more a failing of the justice system than anything else. In a perfect world no one would ever be convicted of any crime they were innocent of - unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world. I think that if I were in the position of B or C and if I could somehow know that A and F would both be found not guilty then I wouldn't come forward - fuck taking the wrath of the law and losing my license if no one else would have lost their license anyway!

Every time I have been caught breaking the law I have taken the consequences. Every time I broke the law and didn't get caught I decided not to go hand myself in to the fuzz so that I could be punished. I doubt anyone here has never done wrong and got away with it.

Why the hell should anyone take the rap for someone else's actions (unless they choose too) which is certainly not the case here.

I would expect in this case the innocent riders would be pleading not guilty and would not be looking to take the rap for this.

If I was in the position of A or F I would plead not guilty and I would talk to the other riders about the idea of them being witnesses in court. I don't think I could bring myself to dob in the guys that pulled wheelstands and I am not too sure that I would expect them to go handing themselves in either. I guess I would gain some degree of extra respect for them if they did hand themselves in and got me off without having to go to court, but I can understand their desire to not do so. If B and C could testify and say it was them that pulled wheelstands without fear of legal repercussions (it would pay to check that with a lawyer, not just KB forums) then I would expect them to be willing to do that. If they would be at risk of being charged if they admitted in court to being the culprits then I would understand them not wanting to do that and I would just get the others to testify. If I got convicted then I would be pretty pissed off at the cops and the legal system, but not so much at riders B & C.

I am not saying that B & C shouldn't come forward or that not coming forward is the right thing to do. I am just saying that they are in a difficult spot and that we are not talking about a certainty of conviction for A & F if they just go to court and plead not guilty. Is it not better that none of them lose their license/job than for 2 of them to sacrifice themselves to the justice system?

I guess there are plenty of people on these forums that have a different view to mine and think that anyone should be happy to rush in and confess their misdeeds to the police - if they lose their job due to that than it is just tough. I guess that thinking would apply even if they had a wife and children to support and a loss of job would mean hardship to the whole family. I am just trying to be a bit more understanding of both sides here and it is only my opinion - no one here is forced to agree with me.

[DEATH_INC.]

Ok, one last twist on this.
At this stage the only damage done is a hit to the finances of two people who can't really afford it, time off work (again not really desirable) and a fair bit of stress/lost sleep/anguish etc.
What if 'A' and 'F' do get done, and lose their licenses. Both have a long distance to travel to work, and rider 'F' is in the automotive trade where a license is required, so there is the very real prospect of loosing his job. That aside, have you ever tried to travel across jafaland on the buses?
The costs will go into the thousands of dollars, and the stress on the families goes through the roof.


Would you expect the guilty parties to own up then and try to get the decision reversed?

[The Stranger:Me]

That's a difficult one to answer accurately - I have never been in that position so what I think I would do may be different to what I would actually do. But I can understand the concept that coming forward and admitting to the wrongdoing leads to certain punishment (if we are talking about loss of job then that is certainly a hefty punishment) whereas the falsely accused can plead not guilty and hopefully get off the charges.

I feel that the police have a moral obligation not to pick out people at random to take the rap for misdeeds. If they can't positively identify the riders doing wheelstands then they should just charge no one or maybe everyone they can identify on the wrong side of the no crossing line (lesser offence, but at least the correct offence in this case).

I think to some degree the results of the court cases will make a difference to how riders B & C feel about their actions. If A & F are found not guilty then B & C will no doubt be happy that no one had to pay for their misdeeds. However if A and/or F are found guilty then it is hard for anyone to feel good about it - though it is more a failing of the justice system than anything else. In a perfect world no one would ever be convicted of any crime they were innocent of - unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world. I think that if I were in the position of B or C and if I could somehow know that A and F would both be found not guilty then I wouldn't come forward - fuck taking the wrath of the law and losing my license if no one else would have lost their license anyway!

Every time I have been caught breaking the law I have taken the consequences. Every time I broke the law and didn't get caught I decided not to go hand myself in to the fuzz so that I could be punished. I doubt anyone here has never done wrong and got away with it.

Fark!
What a lot of fucken shit!
What about friends?
Have you had any?

[FROSTY:Me]

Mark what world do you live in??
Ok lets go with your idea here--hey fuggit theyre gonna get found not guilty so no loss no foul.
So tell me who pays rider A and F's wages for that day in court?
Who pays the lawyers bills for that day. Id suggest hypothetically speaking around the $900 EACH mark?
Also do you think rider A or F can afford NOT to tell their employer in advance. Even should it go well do you feel come promotion time either persons employer is going to see them as a shining light??
And anyway Do you honestly feel that at the very least rider B and C shouldn't apologise to the other two riders??