Headlights on all the time

[Beeza]

So, your 70 Trophy has been given some fairly large non-standard modifications to the electrical system to avoid running down the battery? And, of course, your bike is kick-started, meaning the battery is never pushed anywhere near its limits by a starter motor spinning two or three big high-comp pistons . Hardly in the same category to an electric-start only pre-1990 bike like a Guzzi, BMW, Laverda etc is it? You really do NOT want to be caught in city traffic with a stalled bike and a flat battery because you've stupidly been running the damned thing with the headlight on in broad daylight in stop-start city traffic. And to have to bump-start it with a flat battery.

No, just move the lights-on law to post-1990 bikes and everyone is happy.

[Dodgyiti]

BUT - the Guzzi is my highway bike and it has highway lights - if I was mainly town running I'd go for a lower wattage up front maybe...

Yes all true Paul, and I could do that, but the best thing I have done for night riding safety on the open road is put a Xenon blue 65/55 + relay,and it would be dissapointing to go backwards because it's great!
Done my best with the entire electrical system (new quality everything) as well but it does take a decent amount of revs to get it to produce a decent charge when the lights are on.
There is an upgrade for the rotor, and the possibility of machining the front engine cover to fit a 1995 alt/rotor but what a mission. I just finished 2 years of meticulous work with no expense spared to have a better than standard bike and I don't even wanna touch it.
Being shaft drive and producing 185psi per pot when it's not even bedded in yet is a tall ask to push start for a 74kg beast like me

[Max Headroom]

I replaced the parking light bulb on my bike with a 20watt halogen bulb three years ago. (Who on earth actually USES parking lights on a bike for parking anyway????) The twenty-watter looks damn' near as bright as the headlight bulb does on dip.

I'm concerned about the cut-off year inasmuch as it involves the car-driving public. If I'm legally riding my 1976 model bike and some pillock pulls out of a side-road in front of me, and then slides out the "he didn't have his headlight on" card while I'm extracting myself from his door, I'm not going to be happy . . . . and I certainly don't fancy being a test case in court. ("Your Honour, Mr Headroom actually HAD a working headight on his bike and CHOSE not to use it." "Guilty. Next case.")

I'm also not happy about the legal responsibility shifting from dopey/blind/distracted drivers to sensible riders. Legally required compulsory Hi-Vis riding gear will be next.

This law change serves more as window dressing than a constructive means of reducing accidents. It has more to do with the gummint being seen to be doing something positive rather than thinking through the issues with some degree of understanding. Steven Joyce is a smart guy and I am happy with most of his decisions so far, but I think this one slid under his radar.

[Paul in NZ]

So, your 70 Trophy has been given some fairly large non-standard modifications to the electrical system to avoid running down the battery? And, of course, your bike is kick-started, meaning the battery is never pushed anywhere near its limits by a starter motor spinning two or three big high-comp pistons . Hardly in the same category to an electric-start only pre-1990 bike like a Guzzi, BMW, Laverda etc is it? You really do NOT want to be caught in city traffic with a stalled bike and a flat battery because you've stupidly been running the damned thing with the headlight on in broad daylight in stop-start city traffic. And to have to bump-start it with a flat battery.

No, just move the lights-on law to post-1990 bikes and everyone is happy.

Nope - its never run down the battery in the 20 years and 100,000 miles I've owned it. But like everything, electical bits get tired and when they get tired they get replaced and /or upgraded. The alternator stator is the original single phase, it still runs a zenner but the rectifier was poked (mechanical failure) and the wiring loom was worn out so I went new with that.

I made an alloy earth bar behind the battery to provide a std earth point and mount the relays (underneath). Few extra earth leads etc. But only did that so I could run H4 halogen in the 6" headlamp

Everything is plug in and the whole lot could got back to bog stock in an afternoon...

For what it's worth, my 'modern bike' is a 1980 Mk2 leMans which IS in the category described. Yes, I can push start it btw, it's a technique, not strength, you have to let the mass of the bike do the work... If you think thats tough try a 810 kitted norton running clipons, 11.1 pistons and big carbs with a wild cam... you get fit. The guzzi electrics have been mildly improved and every now and then I hook it up to a battery tender to top off the truck battery it uses... but only because it get little use and the garge is cold plus those big batteries cost a friggin fortune.

Look guys it's horses for courses, I have a background in electrical engineering so I'm always looking at stuff thinking, wtf, why did they do that and improving.... There is a know fault in the guzzi wiring thats fixed with a couple of little straps, it means a low battery will fire the starter now when it used to go 'click'... I still trust the thing as far as I can throw it but the VM is a good indication of health.

End of the day you can think I'm a stupid dork, I don't care but I run my old bikes with the lights on and have had zero issues....

Now if I had a Lucas 6v gennie you might hear me complaining....

ps - MoF, I was running a 95W highbeam in my Mk2 for a while - wowsers but it was a bridge too far charge wise. I fitted a brand new lamp (same as a small fiat cheap as chips) and a 45/55 lamps, can easily ride at 120 plus at night and I'm half blind.... (the other half is deaf)

[RDjase]

I read a article some were(trying to find it) about a study on day time bike headlight use that said it made it more difficult to judge the distance of an approaching motorcycle and it made the bike look FURTHER AWAY than it actualy was. It carried on that in some states (US or AUS, cant remember till i find article) were compulsary headlight use was made legal, that there was more accidents(from people saying they thought the bike was futher away) and they changed the laws back.

Has anyone else read or heard of it before?

I ride with my lights on , My duke is a US model and always (mostly) did when i used my LC on the road

I have come across a few articles on the subject over the years - they all said this was the danger of using high beam in daytime. One mag (Cycle World, I think, but don't quote me), actually went so far as to get a heap of people to estimate how far away a bike was with headlight alternately on high and then low beams. The results were , well, let's say I never ride using high beam in the daytime...

Thanks for that , very handy piece of info, i wonder if LTSA or what ever there are now will pass this on (if they even know about it, they should do, no doubt it has cost tax payers a fortune to change this rule) or just blame every accident on a SPEEDING MOTORCYCLE

[Voltaire]

I once needed a new rotor for my BMW R100S once whilst doing an extended tour, BMW had them for $$$$$, Bosch could get them....but the Guzzi shop had reco ones for way less.
On futher investigation the BMW and Guzzi charging system is the same...a Bosch one.
Always handy to know what interchangable parts there are out there....
Hmmm idea for new post.

[Beeza]

A trained electrical engineer probably CAN run his Guzzi LM2 with headlights on, or his Trophy with radically modded electric with ditto, just as how a heart specialist can probably feed on Big Macs all day long and then do all the other clever secret cardiac stuff to avoid copping the fat heart attack us ordinary buggers would get.

We're not electrical boffins, so our old bikes still run in the way they were designed donkey's years ago.

And that means you switch the lights on only in the dark when the roads are emptier and you can still go fast enough to get home before the battery runs down too much for the bike to fire up the next morning.

Our pre-90 bikes simply weren't designed to run with the lights on in the daytime. And our batteries WILL go flat if we did.

Headlights are for use in the dark, not in the daytime.

That's how it was before 1990 for us rank-and-file riders without a BSc, B.Eng or an auto-electrics trade ticket. And many motorcyclists with an OFF switch still operate on the same notion today -- and all you need to do is to look around and see how rare this "lights-on running in the daytime" thing still is.

Post-90 bike riders don't have a valid excuse. Pre-90 bike riders do.

The proposed new law ought to take this reality into account.

[Ixion]

Well, there are bikes and bikes. And localities and localities.

Older bikes may sometimes be better off than later ones. I dunno anything about MGs so I won't speak of them. I do know a bit aboyut older Briddish bikes.

F'instance , a early 60s Norton Domi. Mag ignition, alternator, decent size 12V battery, no indicators or such. He's fine. Ignition doesn't need a battery, and the alternator only has to cope with the headlamp.

Earlier Briddish, usually magneto and 6V dynamo. Not really an issue. The ignition doesn't need a battery, the dynamo maybe won't cope so the light will get pretty feak and weeble, but arguably it's still a headlamp

Small Briddish with magdynos, eg BSA Bantam, they're fine, lights were always crap, but 24 hour a day crap.

But, an early Triumph with 6V dynamo and coil ignition , he's in trouble.

And a later Triumph, once they started fitting indicators and such, along with coil ignition, he may have a problem (though at least he's got a kickstart).

What WILL struggle are the early Jappas and Euros. When they were starting to load the machine up with electric fitments, hadn't decently upscaled the alternator size, and had taken away the kick start.

If you only have a leccy leg you're at risk

Then there's location.

Mr PiNZ states that where he lives to go anywhere means a decent bit of open road at the start and the same decent bit of open road at the end. And (no disrespect, but) down where he is there aren't likely to be traffic jams or huge urban areas like Auckland

So his bike gets a good charge up at the start, and a good charge up at the end. Not quite the same as struggling across Auckland , 50kph all the way for an hour, then getting stuck in stop start city traffic for an hour (traffic lights n such) then another 50kph grind home. Not a decent run in the whole time to put a bit of charge into the system

As the Brummagen gentleman says, bikes of the 70s and 80s weren't designed on the basis of running lights all the time. They may cope. Or they may not .

[popelli]

if lights on is so great why don't car drivers have to use day time lights

come to think of it if helmets are so great why don't car drivers have to wear them

just another totally unnecessary law

[Paul in NZ]

Oh ffs.... This is nuts... ANY simpleton that can manage to string enough brain cells together to run an old bike for any length of time can sort the electrics. However, most people would rather spend the $$ on stupid compression ratios and $1000 paint jobs that sitting down for 5 min's and thinking about it...

Pre 1990 eh? OK - Dredge up the FZR thread. hels bike always had trouble with electrics and starting - got the engine sorted and yes - when it was running the voltage across the battery (not a great method but good enough) was down lower than i liked. The manual has a full diagnosis check sheet and everything measured OK on the $20 multimeter so...

Sat an looked at it and realised the rect / reg was mounted on a plate that bolted to the frame and that was how it was earthed. Decades of dirt had broken down the connection, two scrap wire jumper leads with $1.00 worth of connectors to join the rect/reg to the eth side of the battery directly and another one to the engine cases and full charge is restored - bike has NEVER had a charging problem since (stayed in touch with new owner) and runs lights on all the time...

Same deal on an FZR400SP - cept the rect reg is worse on those, it bolts to a alloy plare pop riveted to a subframe...

End of the day - if you REALLY want to ride your bike with the lights on there is a soltion, problem is, you don't want to hear it.

Paul N

ps - I don't have an electrical degree, I specialise in telecommunications and my paid job is as a Marketing manager

[dieseldave]

Back in the early 70's some bikers were voluntarily putting lights on during the day to be more noticeable. If I remember correctly the group (whoever they were) wanted lights on to be mandatory in recognition of a problem. No doubt they had some resistance to that but did advise the bikers to do it anyway. Some/most did just that. So now its law - what's the problem?

[Motu]

So now its law - what's the problem?

The fact that it is a law.

[BMWST?]

back in the day....i ran headlights on with all my bikes from cb500 four through to BMWK100RS evn my Ducati 900S2 5 days a week it was through the middle of wellington....Lyall Bay to Thorndon...zero issues

[Ixion]

Sorry PiNZ, but the best earthing and wiring in the world can't produce ampheres that just aren't there.

If you consume more watts than the dynamo or alternator is putting out your battery will discharge. End of story

For instance, the Lucas E3N dynamo produces (when brand new, in perfect condition) 30 watts at 2300 rpm (maximum output of 48 watts at peak revs).

Now, even if you've still got the old 24/36W headlamp bulb fitted, that, on dip beam (24W) plus a 6W tail lamp is 30watts. The maximum output of the dyno if the revs are under 2300. Add a stop lamp if fitted, instrument lamp and your battery IS discharging. And that's assuming magneto ignition. If you have an early coil ignition (say an early 5T) then things are much worse.

And in Auckland city traffic, there wil be LONG periods when revs won't get above 2000-3000 .

And it gets worse. Cut in speed (below which the dynamo produces NO output) is 1200 - 1500 rpm. Well above idle. So the whole time you're idling the battery is getting NO charge.

It's going to go flat. No two ways about it.

And no amount of fettling, earthing, rewiring will stop it, because the amps just aren't there.

Sure, most machines old enough to mount a dynamo probably aren't used much. And a charged up battery (on the battery charger) before setting out will *probably* last long enough to get home. Mostly. But what about rallies f'instance. Days (maybe weeks) away from home. And most rally camp sites don't have a convenient power point to plug your battery charger in (not to mention having to lug it along).

Yes. We can work round it. But we shouldn't have to.

Most classic riders DO ride with lights on , most of the time. But they flick them off to give the system a break when , for instance, they are sitting at traffic lights.

Fortunately , thanks to the pre 80 exemption, they'll be able to continue to do so.

I don't have figures for alternator output on early 80s machines so I can't be dogmatic. But I suspect that some (not all) machines of that era, with 60s era charging system , but indicators, stop lights and electric starters added on, will be in a similar situation.

[Motu]

Sure we can upgrade our electrical system just by step by step attention to connections and earths,to make it how the manufacturer intended,but didn't implement.Done it plenty of times myself,sometimes with surprising success,sometimes with other surprising results.At the moment the BMW has me standing back with suspicion.


The late '80's airhead has a 280w alt,sounds good to my 60w brain,but after a battery failure I checked my charging system,and found it is really marginal at low engine speeds...it will maintain status quot,but doesn't go into the positive side of charging until cruising mode.

Motorcycle alts run at engine speed,unlike car systems that are geared up - a car is putting in 14.5 volts at idle,an older bike will never do that.I've just gone from a 75amp alt to a 60amp alt on my Pajero,and as I don't use the air con,drive with my lights on and fogs at night it should be ok....but my short trips twice a week will drag it down too,the twin batteries take some filling up.You don't really need the extra if everything goes to plan - but when did that ever happen?