The Group Ride Guide Announcement

[The Stranger:Me]

( a couple of exceptions. Organisers assessing other riders? on what basis? are they quialified to do so?, splitting rides into smaller pods, why?)

The intent is NOT that organisers should assess other riders.
Only that they should suggest the type of rider they expect the ride should be suitable for.
If they are uncertain what type of rider a particular ride would suit, perhaps they should consider NOT running the ride - or err on the safe side.
If a coro loop is billed as suitable for experienced riders only and a noob turns up none the less, having read this, they are holding themselves out to be of suitable experience - you didn't encourage them beyond their abilities, in fact you did the opposite.

Why split into smaller groups? Only to separate those that wish to cruise and take in the scenery from those that wish to get from A to B fastest. It makes little sense having day trippers mixed with fast riders. There is pressure on the day trippers to keep up (in their minds) and they only present a hazard to the fast guys. The principal here is live and let live

[Mental Trousers]

Why would Kiwibiker want to take on the huge responsibility and major hassles of an organisation? This is a forum where anyone can post anything they like about bikes (provided it isn't offensive or abusive), ie a guide to group rides, a notification of a race event, shit talk about the latest Kamazuda pn1s 1200. Only someone truely insane would consider turning this place into some sort of club or something. Although, if you've got a spare $250,000 a year split between the 2 of us I'm sure we'll happily do just that.

I guess all of that legal advice from the experts wasn't worth jack shit cos you seem to know more about these things than they do. Where exactly would the 2 of us be if shit happened right now??

you have allowed someone to post a document containing guidelines / rules for conduct of the organizer / group

I love the continued use of these words "shouldn't " "highly unlikely" "remote chance"
you are just acknowledging the huge Grey Area

isn't this kiwibitcher, talk shit "Forum"
time you and spank had a good think about this direction away from running a forum to allowing ride conduct rules to be set in place, but not by you... this doesn't give you an out

if big shit happens I know where you 2 will be standing

[caseye]

"Why split into smaller groups? Only to separate those that wish to cruise and take in the scenery from those that wish to get from A to B fastest. It makes little sense having day trippers mixed with fast riders. There is pressure on the day trippers to keep up (in their minds) and they only present a hazard to the fast guys. The principal here is live and let live "Quoted from The Stranger's post # 91.


__________________OK if the intent is Not that the, an organiser should assess riders then why is it suggested that there be two distinct groups.
We've all ridden on organised rides (no names, no pack drill re by whom or if they're associated with any particular web site or group) where the "fast guys go ahead! LOL boy who are we kidding?
This is the norm, therefore the need to have two distinct groups, by whatever means is obviated by the prcocess of natural selection.Whereby the " fast guys" are already ahead.
"Personal Responsibility" comes into play here and any cruiser(whatever they may be riding) who tries to keep up and fails is at fault, not an organiser if there is an incident.
Please don't get me wrong, the intent of the guide was and I believe is good.
I'm just concerend that people get the right information about what they can and can't expect to have happen if for whatever reason an investigative authority did get involved after a group riding incident.

[The Stranger:Me]

"Personal Responsibility" comes into play here and any cruiser(whatever they may be riding) who tries to keep up and fails is at fault, not an organiser if there is an incident.

Quite frankly I think it positive that people raise issues that they see.
I accept that my communication may not be as clear as I would like and by raising the issues you see/foresee it affords me the chance to rectify that situation.

You have of course nailed it, personal responsibility does come into play here. My thoughts are that the guide is geared predominantly toward personal responsibility that was my intent anyway. The possibility of liability is not of my making, it just "is" and there is nothing I can do about the fact that it exists.
The first principal of the guide is everyone goes out, enjoys themselves and comes back safe, of course if this happens the rest of the principals are totally irrelevant.
So, with regard to the "fault" you mention above, whoever is at fault doesn't matter, the idea in this case is to facilitate the first principal - everyone to get home safe and sound. It's not about laying blame or covering arse.

The organiser need make no assessment of a rider's abilities to split the group. If the group is large and includes all manner of riders and bikes they may care ask for a show of hands as who is here to "race" and who is here to cruise and/or on a learner ticket and separate the ride into 2 groups accordingly. People can decide on their own what their intent is and which group they care to join.

[Nasty]

There seems to be a great big hole in understanding here. Legally and in the intentions.

1. The language "should" "May" "wouldn't" "Shouldn't" is entirely appropriate for these.

2. There is no language that is "Shall" "will" etc

Yes this is semantics - but having worked with Standards in this country for a number of years - these are guidelines - they are not a psuedo standard. The difference is often in the definitions.

Standard - something that shall be complied with - is legislated for and has concensus gained through public consultation (quick defn).

Guidelines - something providing guidance in an area where often no consensus can be reached - but is there to ofter guidance for situations. Can be used - but is not legislated to be used.

This is drawn out through the development of the Ambulance Standards - several years ago they were a guideline - recommended two man crewing etc - this could not be achieved but was something to strive for. Reviewed last year and i think they are not published as a Standard.

[caseye]

Quite frankly I think it positive that people raise issues that they see.
I accept that my communication may not be as clear as I would like and by raising the issues you see/foresee it affords me the chance to rectify that situation.

No worries here, ready willing and able to debate/discuss at any time.
.

You have of course nailed it, personal responsibility does come into play here. My thoughts are that the guide is geared predominantly toward personal responsibility that was my intent anyway. The possibility of liability is not of my making, it just "is" and there is nothing I can do about the fact that it exists.

I totally agree with you.It is a fact, if there is liability and an investigative body can see it, they will try to intervene.


The first principal of the guide is everyone goes out, enjoys themselves and comes back safe, of course if this happens the rest of the principals are totally irrelevant.
So, with regard to the "fault" you mention above, whoever is at fault doesn't matter, the idea in this case is to facilitate the first principal - everyone to get home safe and sound. It's not about laying blame or covering arse.

It does matter , if there is fault, it matters to whoever did organise the ride that they did all they could to prevent such things happening.Further that if in the event of an investigation that they are seen to have done so and that the "at fault rider/s" are then taken to task personally.I'm not interested in arse covering either, but fairness in addressing situations needs to be seen to work, else no one else will ever again organise a ride/picnic ever, ever again.


The organiser need make no assessment of a rider's abilities to split the group. If the group is large and includes all manner of riders and bikes they may care ask for a show of hands as who is here to "race" and who is here to cruise and/or on a learner ticket and separate the ride into 2 groups accordingly. People can decide on their own what their intent is and which group they care to join.

Ok I'll accept that for the purposes of initially splitting a group into "go fast" and scenery cruisers this works.
I'd simply, (as has been done in the past) tell all in attendance to .Once again ride their own ride and allow those who wish to travel quicker than them to pass safely and quickly.

Cheers The Stranger, been a pleasure being able to say whats on the mind without getting a new one ripped.
Don't know if it's made things any clearer for everyone but I'm still of the opinion that the Guide is a good thing.
I believe we now need to nurture it and protect ourselves and it from being corrupted into something that can be used against us, either as individuals or a group.

[_STAIN_]

_STAIN_ Your posts rarely have a conclusion.

I'm just drawing out the thinkers.

[_STAIN_]

Cheers The Stranger, been a pleasure being able to say whats on the mind without getting a new one ripped.
Don't know if it's made things any clearer for everyone but I'm still of the opinion that the Guide is a good thing.
I believe we now need to nurture it and protect ourselves and it from being corrupted into something that can be used against us, either as individuals or a group.

and as a result Caseye has stepped to the front with excellent written communication skills. Last line of below post is exactly the concern to Ride Organizers.

[The Stranger:Me]

and as a result Caseye has stepped to the front with excellent written communication skills. Last line of below post is exactly the concern to Ride Organizers.

So you say the govt may form policy based on my work? I'm flattered.
I never thought the govt gave a rats arse about my opinions.
But I see you do. Thank you.

Listen up John, my next publication includes raising the road toll target to 500. Let's stop all this silly safer journeys stuff and implement that for me now will you. There's a good boy.

[boomer]

So Boomer says to Beyond in a thread...hey dude we are doing the Coro Loop Sunday. You coming?

A serious question. Where does that sit if a new rider turns up having seen it on KB?

We do meets via txt, so this scenario wouldn't happen. If by chance he did meet me at BP Papakura at 9 am on a sunday, knowing i frequent KB and asked to tag along, being a newb he'd soon fook of because we'd be too slow for him.. problem solved

Read the small print, that would come under the 'Darwin' clause.

I think in all fairness 2 hundred yards down the road said Newbie would be wondering where everyone went to and fook of home !

the power of B have no consept of what a can of worms this is

help me to understand..

[Maha]

Social Group rides?
Are rides that are organised in any of the KB social groups governed by the guidelines? governed is the wrong word but ya know what I mean. Should social group rides use the guidelines?

[Katman]

Now there's a very valid point.

[The Stranger:Me]

Social Group rides?
Are rides that are organised in any of the KB social groups governed by the guidelines? governed is the wrong word but ya know what I mean. Should social group rides use the guidelines?

In all honesty Maha, There is no need or compulsion to use the guidelines at all ever.
They were instigated for several reasons.
1) An attempt to get everyone home safely.
2) Make for a more enjoyable day for all (no one getting lost, or having to hunt for riders etc)
3) Try and mitigate potential liability should something go wrong.
4) Try and relieve the "blame" on an organiser should something go wrong.
5) Try and ease the burden on an organiser should something go wrong. If someone dies on your ride how are you going to feel, will you wonder if you could or should have done anything differently - I know I would.

Now if none of those reasons float your boat (you see no value in them) or the guidelines don't meet those goals then by all means you are only too welcome to ignore them, it matters me not a wit.

[Maha]

Yes Noel, I asked the question because I dont think it was talked over in the forum? Social groups being a part of this website n' all. Your five points made are very valid. I dont organise rides through a social group. I am now a firm beleiver that, I would rather ride my day with people who I know personally and smaller groups.

[_STAIN_]

Social Group rides?
Are rides that are organised in any of the KB social groups governed by the guidelines? governed is the wrong word but ya know what I mean. Should social group rides use the guidelines?

yes, you are under the KB umbrella and using their communication network so you are obliged to use their documented guidelines to safety, for members.
What Caseye says in Post 88 is true
"In my humble opinion" Though "The Ride Guide" is not a KB sanctioned/approved document, it is nevertheless a written how too and would become by default what any investigation would refer to in assessing blame or culpability.