Swerving...

[MSTRS:Me]

You've really got it in for me haven't you?

Nope. Just your so-called advice. Nothing wrong with playing in a carpark, doing what you said (8's and peg scraping circles etc), But it's not good advice for a newbie wanting to know about emergency avoidance countersteering procedures.

You went off your nut at me suggesting something to practise, but another member posted the same thing and you called it a good post.

But he wasn't suggesting that finding his/bike's limits in a carpark was good for object avoidance.

[NDORFN]

Nope. Just your so-called advice. Nothing wrong with playing in a carpark, doing what you said (8's and peg scraping circles etc), But it's not good advice for a newbie wanting to know about emergency avoidance countersteering procedures.

Ok well since you're the ME and I am clearly in need of advice, can you please explain exatly what is wrong with learning how to control your own bike through the range of it's vertical to horizontal extremes at low speed as a step toward and foundation of learning how to execute a good swerve at varying faster speeds?

[MSTRS:Me]

Ok well since you're the ME and I am clearly in need of advice, can you please explain exatly what is wrong with learning how to control your own bike through the range of it's vertical to horizontal extremes at low speed as a step toward and foundation of learning how to execute a good swerve at varying faster speeds?

There's nothing wrong with learning good, low-speed handling skills. In fact, I recommend it. And there's nothing wrong with learning object avoidance through emergency countersteering. But neither skill is dependant on the other.
They are 2 separate skills. I know people who can countersteer with the best of them...but they can't do a U-turn.

[NDORFN]

There's nothing wrong with learning good, low-speed handling skills. In fact, I recommend it. And there's nothing wrong with learning object avoidance through emergency countersteering. But neither skill is dependant on the other.
They are 2 separate skills. I know people who can countersteer with the best of them...but they can't do a U-turn.

We're totally misunderstanding each other and I think it has alot to do with our idea of what "low-speed" handling is. In the carpark I learned in, I could pull up to 50kph circles... and of course very low speed circles. I learned the varying speeds relative to varying radius that countersteering came into play and turning into the corner became redundant. Having started with circles of different speeds and radius to 8's, to slalom, to offset slalom to swerving etc... then encorporating varying levels of braking into the equation in each circumstance, I went out onto the open road and headed for the turkey flocks and pheasants with the confidence and skill to manouvre my bike... and the ability to instinctively adjust for speeds greater than the 50kph in the carpark. I don't see how that ability can explained to someone. You have to "train your brain" by actually doing it. By the way, I never actually fell off doing circles. I was told to circle as hard as I could until I levered my bike out, but I couldn't... I could however cut the throttle and fall off! I'm sure it's possible to lever your bike out but who cares, the amazing thing was how tight I could corner, how hard I could lean. I was blown away. And that was the lesson... it was never intended that I would actually lever it out, but that in the process of trying to I would discover what a bike can actually do in a corner, which was way beyond what I thought possible, and a little less than I'd just been told. It really helped with digging it in around overshot corners (used to do that ALL the time when I was a beginner until that lesson), and with digging it in on swerves these days! All the countersteering, weight distribution, braking etc... it just happened, subconsciously, from the day I left the carpark. I would never advise somebody to go round in circles until they levered themselves out if I actually thought that's what would happen. I know it wouldn't, and I know that the profound effect that the excercise has on a rider's confidence is worth a few scrapes on the pegs. For me it was like a rite-of-passage.

[Nasty]

We're totally misunderstanding each other and I think it has alot to do with our idea of what "low-speed" handling is. In the carpark I learned in, I could pull up to 50kph circles... and of course very low speed circles. I learned the varying speeds relative to varying radius that countersteering came into play and turning into the corner became redundant. Having started with circles of different speeds and radius to 8's, to slalom, to offset slalom to swerving etc... then encorporating varying levels of braking into the equation in each circumstance, I went out onto the open road and headed for the turkey flocks and pheasants with the confidence and skill to manouvre my bike... and the ability to instinctively adjust for speeds greater than the 50kph in the carpark. I don't see how that ability can explained to someone. You have to "train your brain" by actually doing it. By the way, I never actually fell off doing circles. I was told to circle as hard as I could until I levered my bike out, but I couldn't... not without cutting the throttle and dropping it from a standstill anyway. And that was the lesson... it was never intended that I would actually lever it out, but that in the process of trying I would discover what a bike can actually do in a corner, which was way beyond what I thought possible, and a little less than I'd just been told. It really helped with digging it in around overshot corners (used to do that ALL the time when I was a beginner until that lesson), and with digging it in on swerves these days! All the countersteering, weight distribution, braking etc... it just happened, subconsciously, from the day I left the carpark.

I don't think you are misunderstanding each other at all .... I think you ride somewhere where you have things like livestock on the road and learnt how you wanted to ... rather interesting way of learning .. but not something I would do.

Scrapping pegs etc as a newbie while in a carpark ... in the middle of Wellington ... really not a good thing ... in fact on the bike he is on, probably not at all recommended ....

Going out with a mentor - discussing how to do things - and then utilising their guidance while out with them ... a much smarter approach.

BTW haven't seen a flock of anything down here - but plenty of wet slippery man hole covers etc.

[NDORFN]

I don't think you are misunderstanding each other at all .... I think you ride somewhere where you have things like livestock on the road and learnt how you wanted to ... rather interesting way of learning .. but not something I would do.

Scrapping pegs etc as a newbie while in a carpark ... in the middle of Wellington ... really not a good thing ... in fact on the bike he is on, probably not at all recommended ....

Going out with a mentor - discussing how to do things - and then utilising their guidance while out with them ... a much smarter approach.

BTW haven't seen a flock of anything down here - but plenty of wet slippery man hole covers etc.

I totally agree that physically going out with a mentor is the best way to learn, if it's available. You're on your own bike for starters so it's all releveant.

[MSTRS:Me]

We're totally misunderstanding each other and I think it has alot to do with our idea of what "low-speed" handling is. In the carpark I learned in, I could pull up to 50kph circles... and of course very low speed circles. I learned the varying speeds relative to varying radius that countersteering came into play and turning into the corner became redundant. Having started with circles of different speeds and radius to 8's, to slalom, to offset slalom to swerving etc... then encorporating varying levels of braking into the equation in each circumstance, I went out onto the open road and headed for the turkey flocks and pheasants with the confidence and skill to manouvre my bike... and the ability to instinctively adjust for speeds greater than the 50kph in the carpark. I don't see how that ability can explained to someone. You have to "train your brain" by actually doing it. By the way, I never actually fell off doing circles. I was told to circle as hard as I could until I levered my bike out, but I couldn't... I could however cut the throttle and fall off! I'm sure it's possible to lever your bike out but who cares, the amazing thing was how tight I could corner, how hard I could lean. I was blown away. And that was the lesson... it was never intended that I would actually lever it out, but that in the process of trying to I would discover what a bike can actually do in a corner, which was way beyond what I thought possible, and a little less than I'd just been told. It really helped with digging it in around overshot corners (used to do that ALL the time when I was a beginner until that lesson), and with digging it in on swerves these days! All the countersteering, weight distribution, braking etc... it just happened, subconsciously, from the day I left the carpark. I would never advise somebody to go round in circles until they levered themselves out if I actually thought that's what would happen. I know it wouldn't, and I know that the profound effect that the excercise has on a rider's confidence is worth a few scrapes on the pegs. For me it was like a rite-of-passage.

Stop fudging. That was not exactly what you were saying in earlier posts. You've obviously done an advanced handing course (or RRRS), and that's great. Good for you (and anyone else that does one). The OP is not up to doing that yet, nor can they go out and practice it without the instructor/s on hand, displaying what is expected. The other thing about doing one of those courses is they are great for gaining confidence in the bike's abilities, but someone who's done it is not necessarily in a position to advise others. There are steps to be taken in a certain order, for any of it to make sense.

[The Stranger:Me]

Ok, so I'm getting a bit ahead of myself here

I'm told that it involves 2 sharp counter-steered turns

2? Why not 1 or 3 - depending on the situation.
Are you confident with counter steering yet?
If not, perhaps you are getting ahead of yourself and should sort that first.

[NDORFN]

Stop fudging. That was not exactly what you were saying in earlier posts. You've obviously done an advanced handing course (or RRRS), and that's great. Good for you (and anyone else that does one). The OP is not up to doing that yet, nor can they go out and practice it without the instructor/s on hand, displaying what is expected. The other thing about doing one of those courses is they are great for gaining confidence in the bike's abilities, but someone who's done it is not necessarily in a position to advise others. There are steps to be taken in a certain order, for any of it to make sense.

I've never done an advanced course. I started in the driveway, progressed to the carpark next door, and then on to the road, where swerving is as much a part of the ride as the straights and corners.

[magicmonkey]

2? Why not 1 or 3 - depending on the situation.
Are you confident with counter steering yet?
If not, perhaps you are getting ahead of yourself and should sort that first.

I've can measure my experience in hours, not days or weeks! As in, I've probably only spent somewhere around around 12 hours on a bike. At the moment I'm not confident with anything at all, although I'm not finding it quite as hard as I thought I would.

I know I'm getting ahead of myself with this but I've thought that getting the emergency stuff out of the way will help me feel more confident and as I'm going to be spending most of the next 2 days practicing I think it's reasonable to think that I'll be happier with emergency braking and will have a little experience countersteering by then and I'd like to have an idea of what I want to be doing after that, look where you want to go and all that

[Maha]

In conjunction with learning to swerve, aim to improve your situational awareness so the possibility of needing to swerve is reduced.

Yes indeed, pretty easy really aint it?
Even the odd car jumping out of a side can be avoided if you are fully aware of your space and surroundings.

[george formby]

I've can measure my experience in hours, not days or weeks! As in, I've probably only spent somewhere around around 12 hours on a bike. At the moment I'm not confident with anything at all, although I'm not finding it quite as hard as I thought I would.

I know I'm getting ahead of myself with this but I've thought that getting the emergency stuff out of the way will help me feel more confident and as I'm going to be spending most of the next 2 days practicing I think it's reasonable to think that I'll be happier with emergency braking and will have a little experience countersteering by then and I'd like to have an idea of what I want to be doing after that, look where you want to go and all that

If I may be so bold, don't sweat the detail. Your obviously using your noggin being here but the bottom line is time on your bike. A weekend in a carpark will only help you so much. When I first had to ride on the road I was nervous as hell, during my first training session it was that bad that I either looped or stalled my bike just trying to get rolling. The instructor pulled me to one side to chill out & after the session finished gave up his time for some one on one training. His encouragement alone gave me huge confidence. Perhaps a forum member could do similar for you, not so much training but encouragement. Everything you have stated you want to learn here will take time, go out & do it a bit at a time. Set yourself up to succeed, think about routes, traffic, weather, anything that will pre-occupy you rather than just enjoying getting to know your bike. Go & ride the bloody thing & sieve the comments in this thread for the many golden nuggets that have been left.
Have fun!

[magicmonkey]

If I may be so bold, don't sweat the detail. Your obviously using your noggin being here but the bottom line is time on your bike. A weekend in a carpark will only help you so much. When I first had to ride on the road I was nervous as hell, during my first training session it was that bad that I either looped or stalled my bike just trying to get rolling. The instructor pulled me to one side to chill out & after the session finished gave up his time for some one on one training. His encouragement alone gave me huge confidence. Perhaps a forum member could do similar for you, not so much training but encouragement. Everything you have stated you want to learn here will take time, go out & do it a bit at a time. Set yourself up to succeed, think about routes, traffic, weather, anything that will pre-occupy you rather than just enjoying getting to know your bike. Go & ride the bloody thing & sieve the comments in this thread for the many golden nuggets that have been left.
Have fun!

yeah, I completely get the time on bike thing. I fact, I'm just annoyed that I'm at work during the day and have to meet a new housemate in the evening! Other than that I'll be spending most of the weekend on 2 wheels. I'll probably be back here on Monday with a completely different perspective and a whole new barrel of questions

Still, at least I'll have a slightly better idea of what I'm talking about by then!

[MSTRS:Me]

I've never done an advanced course. I started in the driveway, progressed to the carpark next door, and then on to the road, where swerving is as much a part of the ride as the straights and corners.

I hope you mean 'the possibility of needing to swerve to avoid a threat is always present when riding' ??
The way that reads suggests that you swerve all over the place, all the time. In which case, I strongly suggest you do some work on your riding ability or observation skills...

[NDORFN]

I hope you mean 'the possibility of needing to swerve to avoid a threat is always present when riding' ??
The way that reads suggests that you swerve all over the place, all the time. In which case, I strongly suggest you do some work on your riding ability or observation skills...

Haha yeah I meant swerving to avoid all the obstacles.