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Thread: Legal challenges against ACC?

  1. #1
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    Legal challenges against ACC?

    The implementation of the increases, in the end, are not in our hands. We can (and do) protest and provide the ones who are prepared to listen, opposing views to ACC's. Regarding how they have wrongly justified and calculated the proposed new levies, the lack of logic they have used and the un-just way they are planning to increase the ACC levy on bikes.

    But I have also, on KB, and other places, had a read and realised that ACC has clearly made a few blunders when going down this track. Some of them could even be considered major blunders.

    It made me think, that perhaps they have made enough mistakes and left them selves open for a successful legal challenge? (I am not someone with a legal education, and so what I am here pointing out might not have a leg to stand on. But just perhaps...)

    Please feel free to prove me wrong, but also add to what I have here come up with.

    What I have picked up sofar is:

    - The "Advertising Campaign" in major newspapers justifying the increases for bikes. As this was done before the last date for submissions, it was clearly done to support their view. This is clear propaganda. And as the money used was from the ACC levies, surely this is not right?

    - Charging GST on ACC levies. Yes, we are taxed from many different angles, and there is not much we can do re it. But surely charging us a tax on a tax is against the tax law?

    - Charging the same person the same tax more than once for the same thing. When we own more than one motorvehicle we pay ACC levy on all of them. It could be argued that we therefore are paying the same levy fee again and again. If we are injured while driving/riding we can only get hurt once at a time. Therefore we should not have to pay the same fee more than once. My legal angle is that nobody is allowed to charge the same fee more than once for one service? The ACC levy does not cover the vehicle but the person, so for one person to pay more than one ACC levy is surely against the law?

    And I borrowed this one from Wobblyas (hope you don't mind, but I think you have a very valid point there!):
    - ACC R.I.S. doesn't comply
    Regulatory Impact Statement: All policy proposals submitted to Cabinet that result in government bills, statutory regulations, or that propose that the government support or adopt a Members' bill must be accompanied by a regulatory impact statement (RIS)unless an exemption applies. (ref http://cabguide.cabinetoffice.govt.n...s-requirements) “The Treasury Regulatory Impact Analysis (RIA) Team has reviewed the regulatory impact statement (RIS) and considers that it does not meet the RIS requirements. The RIS does not contain the required information and the analysis in incomplete in a number of key areas. For example, some of the proposals to remove ACC entitlements will shift costs onto other government agencies or on to individuals but the RIS does not quantify these costs. The proposal to introduce experience rating and risk sharing in the Work Account will increase administrative and compliance costs for business and for the ACC Scheme but these costs have not yet been investigated. In addition, the RIS consultation requirements have not been met.” (ref http://www.dol.govt.nz/publications/...-bill-2009.asp)


    There, a start...

    May the bridges I burn light the way.

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    A levy isn't a tax so it attracts GST and vehicles attract levies, not people, so multiple levies with additional GST are perfectly legal.
    If a man is alone in the woods and there isn't a woke Hollywood around to call him racist, is he still white?



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    The law also requires that ACC consult.

    I bet you that there is a case, that a requirement to consult implies an obligation to consider the submissions, not just do as you intended anyway.
    David must play fair with the other kids, even the idiots.

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    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by davereid View Post
    The law also requires that ACC consult.

    I bet you that there is a case, that a requirement to consult implies an obligation to consider the submissions, not just do as you intended anyway.
    Sadly this is the case in most "legal obligations" where a consultation is required. Take a redundancy process for example. When a company has decided to make someone redundant they need to consult. So there is a meeting where the employee in question can forward their views. But sadly that does not change anything. The redundancy normally happens anyhow.

    May the bridges I burn light the way.

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    What about the discrimination angle?

    We're being discriminated against because of our choice of transport, whereas cyclists are not.

    I know insurance companies are allowed to discriminate (age, gender, so on), but ACCs position is that they aren't an insurance company.
    Quote Originally Posted by rachprice View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mully View Post
    I know insurance companies are allowed to discriminate (age, gender, so on), but ACCs position is that they aren't an insurance company.

    Not any more.
    And I to my motorcycle parked like the soul of the junkyard. Restored, a bicycle fleshed with power, and tore off. Up Highway 106 continually drunk on the wind in my mouth. Wringing the handlebar for speed, wild to be wreckage forever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by riffer View Post
    Not any more.
    Have they actually come out and said that?

    Cos then the angle can be:
    "Drunk drivers have to pay more for insurance
    Repeated disqualified drivers have to pay more for insurance
    Motorcyclists do not always have to pay more for insurance
    Cyclists don't pay anything
    Mountain climbers don't pay anything
    Horse riders don't pay anything
    and so on"
    Quote Originally Posted by rachprice View Post
    Jrandom, You are such a woman hating cunt, if you weren't such a misogynist bastard you might have a better luck with women!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mully View Post
    Have they actually come out and said that?
    Yep. They're signing correspondence "ACC Insurance".
    If a man is alone in the woods and there isn't a woke Hollywood around to call him racist, is he still white?



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    So where's the opinion of the many lawyers on KB or do Lawyers not belong to such a salubrious group as KB?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fenry View Post
    So where's the opinion of the many lawyers on KB or do Lawyers not belong to such a salubrious group as KB?
    They're just attaching some more chrome to their Harleys......
    Quote Originally Posted by rachprice View Post
    Jrandom, You are such a woman hating cunt, if you weren't such a misogynist bastard you might have a better luck with women!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mully View Post
    They're just attaching some more chrome to their Harleys......
    Pwwfffaarrr as if!! Haven't even got my Duc anymore to not chrome....

    What you are asking is whether there is a case (High Court) to argue that ACC and/or the Minister has wrongly exercised their powers. Its a complex area wayyyyyyy outside my expertise. The most famous case I can remember was the action to prevent the 1981 Springbok Tour, although there will be plenty of others.

    Certainly arguments can be mounted. The time trouble and expense are the barriers. Even with pro bono help you'd have to allow $50,000 for experts expenses and research. And maybe lose.....

    Best option is direct and loud noise at the politicians. We need to pick up on the rise of levies for trucks to get wider sympathy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winston001 View Post
    Even with pro bono help
    I think I saw a movie called Pro Bono Help once......
    Quote Originally Posted by rachprice View Post
    Jrandom, You are such a woman hating cunt, if you weren't such a misogynist bastard you might have a better luck with women!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winston001 View Post
    Pwwfffaarrr as if!! Haven't even got my Duc anymore to not chrome....

    What you are asking is whether there is a case (High Court) to argue that ACC and/or the Minister has wrongly exercised their powers. Its a complex area wayyyyyyy outside my expertise. The most famous case I can remember was the action to prevent the 1981 Springbok Tour, although there will be plenty of others.

    Certainly arguments can be mounted. The time trouble and expense are the barriers. Even with pro bono help you'd have to allow $50,000 for experts expenses and research. And maybe lose.....

    Best option is direct and loud noise at the politicians. We need to pick up on the rise of levies for trucks to get wider sympathy.
    And that might be the case. However, by starting this thread I was trying to see what other (apart from what I stated in my post #1) things the ACC had got wrong. I have been able to find bits here and there but was thinking that if all was collated in one thread, then perhaps someone with a Law Degree could give their opinion on what we have here. And who knows, if there is something that is so blatantly against any of the laws, we could use that to stop this nonsense until we have a Government that is not planning to sell ACC to Oz...

    May the bridges I burn light the way.

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    I still reckon there must be something in NZ law as said here ( I won't retype it) in consumer rights etc that prevents any kiwi from being charged twice for the same product, Shit your plumber can't do it, why should they. And the other points Conquiztador has raised??

    Anyway 110,000 bikers dived into $50k is worth a whip round isn't it!
    I'm serious!
    Collection boxes in the shops etc. Bikers raise heaps on charity runs for starship etc why not to protect ourselves!

    So they pass the levy, one person refuses to pay for his second bike, they take him to court, we all put in money or start a national collection and defend it under consumer rights!!


    Lets do it!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conquiztador View Post
    And that might be the case. However, by starting this thread I was trying to see what other (apart from what I stated in my post #1) things the ACC had got wrong. I have been able to find bits here and there but was thinking that if all was collated in one thread, then perhaps someone with a Law Degree could give their opinion on what we have here. And who knows, if there is something that is so blatantly against any of the laws, we could use that to stop this nonsense until we have a Government that is not planning to sell ACC to Oz...
    Good thinking and I support your aim. Just be aware that administrative law (which this involves) is rare high-end stuff which most lawyers forget as soon as we leave law school. Its a bit like open heart surgery - only a few people have the expertise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reckless View Post
    I still reckon there must be something in NZ law as said here ( I won't retype it) in consumer rights etc that prevents any kiwi from being charged twice for the same product, Shit your plumber can't do it, why should they. And the other points Conquiztador has raised??

    So they pass the levy, one person refuses to pay for his second bike, they take him to court, we all put in money or start a national collection and defend it under consumer rights!!


    Lets do it!!
    Admire your enthusiasm and who knows, all arguments can be thrown in the pot.

    However - would you expect to insure only one bike if you owned three? What happens to your mate/partner/mechanic riding your unregistered bike and has an accident? Will you cover that since no ACC levy has been paid??

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